Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Trans in the Workplace: It's Not Just About Gender

August 1, 2011 by Kyla Bender-Baird

http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/08/01/trans-in-the-workplace-it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-gender/ (http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/08/01/trans-in-the-workplace-it%E2%80%99s-not-just-about-gender/)

Chris is a straight white man in his early 20s living in Maryland. Chris is also transgender. In October 2007, he left his job at a local amusement park because he could no longer put up with the severe homophobic harassment and transphobic dress codes he was forced to endure.

From the beginning, the pay was poor and Chris hated the job, but he stayed because he needed the work. His wife was also able to find a job there so that they could carpool together and save on gas. He put in long hours to make up for the low hourly wage. He even put up with being forced to wear the female uniform, even though this caused him great anxiety as a trans man.

QuoteFor others I spoke with, having a strong educational background provided a buffer from workplace discrimination. Several people also pointed to their professional, high-skill jobs as part of the reason they were able to avoid discrimination as a transgender person.

Perhaps the most telling and poignant element of the article...and it seems to generally lend credence to the old saying that those who fail to plan have planned to fail. 

Further, with people coming out as transsexual earlier and earlier in the present era, there is NO reason for people to be entering the workforce without a proper college background that PREPARED them for decent employment...

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 03, 2011, 08:45:15 AM


Further, with people coming out as transsexual earlier and earlier in the present era, there is NO reason for people to be entering the workforce without a proper college background that PREPARED them for decent employment...

Other than a lack of funds

Quote from: LordKAT on August 04, 2011, 06:05:53 AM
Other than a lack of funds

Unless someone had a drug conviction, student loans continue to remain available...which brings us back to there being no rational excuse for not pursuing the college education...

there being no rational excuse for not pursuing the college education

Oh I can think of bunches, including that tons and tons of college degrees really don't offer any employment anymore.  They are really expensive.  College degrees for a lot of people don't train them to do anything they are ever going to need to do.

Now, if you dropped the college part of that, and just stuck with education (and I know you really meant that, you just didn't type it out that way) to include trade and professional education and training, apprenticeship work and education - ya know, constant life-long learning, then I'm good with that.

Quote from: tekla on August 04, 2011, 09:42:32 AM
there being no rational excuse for not pursuing the college education

Oh I can think of bunches, including that tons and tons of college degrees really don't offer any employment anymore.  They are really expensive.  College degrees for a lot of people don't train them to do anything they are ever going to need to do.

Now, if you dropped the college part of that, and just stuck with education (and I know you really meant that, you just didn't type it out that way) to include trade and professional education and training, apprenticeship work and education - ya know, constant life-long learning, then I'm good with that.

Get an engineering and/or hard sciences degree and you are guarantied to get a job

Kate D

Kia Ora,

::) When you look at the whole picture...Sadly for some trans-youth, because of their effeminate/masculine nature, continuous bullying does tend to stunt their education opportunities...

Metta Zenda :)

Get an engineering and/or hard sciences degree and you are guarantied to get a job
Not true.  Depends on the specific discipline and the school.  Most hard science degrees really require advanced degrees to do anything other than teach HS.  Lots of unemployed automotive engineers around, we haven't hired aerospace engineers for decades now.  And that's hard academic work that not all are cut out for.  For a lot of people an apprenticeship work and education will pay them much more money over their life (with less debt to carry) than a college degree will.

"No reason" is a pretty absolute statement.
It is harsh, but so too is just about every employment situation.  Trans or not, it's very hard to find any work in 2011 without skills.

Sadly for some trans-youth, because of their effeminate/masculine nature, continuous bullying does tend to stunt their education opportunities...
Oddly enough, for others, it motivated and propelled them to even greater accomplishment - it's not a one-size-fits-all excuse.

Some of us are so damaged by GID that we are incappable of dealing with people long enough to get a degree.

And even if you do there is no gaurenty that you will be able to be find work in your field.

But to blame the victim is just plain mean.

Not every one of us is cappable of being in a white collar environment. Personaly it would drive me bonkers.
Hows about we concentrate our disdain for the society that dislikes us so much it makes our lives miserable, instead of bashing people who are not as capable as some others.

Quote from: cynthialee on August 05, 2011, 08:35:39 AM
Hows about we concentrate our disdain for the society that dislikes us so much it makes our lives miserable, instead of bashing people who are not as capable as some others.

Why should there be disdain given that there are a significant number of transsexual persons who live perfectly normal lives and have no problem with securing and maintaining employment? 

Not everyone wants to play the 'poor me' card and blame society for their station in life...

Tekla,

If by time you are declaring your engineering type you have not done a survey of the hiring prospect in that field, or if knowing the prospects you still forge ahead, then you are a donkey and deserve to unemployed. Yes, even in engineering and sciences, in order to secure your future you have to seek advance degrees.

Cynthia Lee,

You argument of the "I have GID" reminds me of the "Oh, it is because I am Hispanic" narrative.

By the time we are eighteen year old or so, we all,GID-affected, black-affected, even the poor WASPs, have to get off our lazy asses, stop playing video games, turning tricks, make a plan, endure the sacrifices, work.

Stop using GID as a crouch, take responsibility for your action.

Kate D

I regularly teach students who cannot figure out how well they are doing in my class. They know how many points each assignment is worth. They know how many points they got on each assignment. They know what letter grade they got on each assignment. They know the course grading scale (what percent is an A, a B, and so on). And they still cannot do the arithmetic. I realize that such problems are a small part of math as a field, but I am never surprised when such a student tells me that he or she is retaking precalculus after failing it the first time.

I seriously doubt these students' ability to earn a bachelor's degree in engineering, let alone an advanced science degree. And most people are not interested in engineering. Otherwise, we would likely have a lot more people graduating with engineering degrees. Instead, many of these would-be engineers wind up being culled out in lower-division courses because they just don't have what it takes to do well.

On the other hand, the master plumber in my old neighborhood made more than my ex, an engineer. Granted, the plumber was older than my ex by about fifteen years at that time, and my ex hadn't topped out in his field yet--he was pretty much caught up by the time I moved out. But the plumber made a very comfortable living doing what he liked to do. He had his own business and a nice house in a very nice neighborhood. And no university degree.

I have been a plumber for many years but do not have the Masters license. There is a great deal of geometry involved in it and you also have to know the nature, heat tolerance, & or stress tolerance of various metals, plastics, and other building materials. If this man has that license you can be assured that he has done his homework and well deserves the wage he gets in return for the service he provides his customers.

If I had my time in college to do over I would persue my degree in Engineering. You can go just about anywhere with one of those.

Where I am now, I am at the bottom of the Admin totem pole trying to work my way up from the bottom again. NAFTA took my job away and left me with what ever I could nail down-and I have stayed there. Some days I think I am crazy for staying but it is a J O B and I can explore my feminity without fear of just getting tossed out with the trash! In many ways I have much to be thankful for.

Randi

Seriously?
You don't know the first thing about my life.
Don't make assumptions.

And I stand on what I said.
Some of us are pretty damaged by the entire GID thing. If you are able to get past it better than others fine and great. But do not denigrate those who are not as capable as you are.

"After waiting, earning a bachelor's degree and moving into a professional career requiring a special skill set, Tori was able to transition with minimal trouble."

...

Quote from: cynthialee on August 05, 2011, 11:00:24 PM
Seriously?
You don't know the first thing about my life.
Don't make assumptions.

And I stand on what I said.
Some of us are pretty damaged by the entire GID thing. If you are able to get past it better than others fine and great. But do not denigrate those who are not as capable as you are.

I am not single out, but I can say: "Oh, so damge by GID, but that does not seem to stop you or other from getting boob or vags"

Forget about GID and degrees, there is all kind of people with many disabilities or handicaps who overcome them by shear will and hardwork and  excel in waht ever and make a decent living. Like they said in the post above, real state agents, salesmand, plumers, eletricians, etc

Do not buy the excuses

Kate D

Quote from: kate durcal on August 05, 2011, 11:57:30 PM
I am not single out, but I can say: "Oh, so damge by GID, but that does not seem to stop you or other from getting boob or vags"

Forget about GID and degrees, there is all kind of people with many disabilities or handicaps who overcome them by shear will and hardwork and  excel in waht ever and make a decent living. Like they said in the post above, real state agents, salesmand, plumers, eletricians, etc

Do not buy the excuses

Kate D

You and Ann seem to have it in your heads that everyone is exactly the same.  That each person born without an arm or some other BS all has a miracle talent deep within that makes them superman/woman that lets them overcome all of it.  After all each person grew up in the same schools, got beaten daily the same ways, raped the same way, spoken to by their parents the same exact way, has the exact same brain function as the person next to them, had the same kinda money, the same community to live in, or whatever other BS you want to pull out of your hat to say.

The simple fact is for every one -superjerk- out there that overcomes amazing odds?  There are ten more just like him/her with her/his disability that struggle each day just to get out of bed.  They do not have the brain type or skill to write with stub hands, swim without limbs, move fluidly without sight, yada yada.  No two people are even remotely the same.  Sometimes despite a miracle workers best efforts there are walls that can't be overcome for some people.  It means jack that you don't believe it because of one -superjerk- because that person could just be I dunno a -statistical anomaly-, had the right conditions to excel, the right community, support network, whatever that the next 99 people lacked.

Heck, the same is true for the plumber example.  The world can't be full of amazing plumbers! Also some areas don't even care if you are amazing they still pay you crap either way.  Lets not get into area politics or office politics that can steamroll even the best of people.  No matter how hard they try and or fight.  It can also only take one single mistake to ruin a persons reputation where they can never get work in that area again.

It just boggles my mind how you are trying to simplify life into some BS little cube.  That the ridiculous idea that one person can do something means everyone can!  The sheer disgusting truth is life isn't that damn beautiful!  Life is a disgusting horrid thing where there are an endless amount of lives where people get the shaft and it is no fault of their own.  The main thing that holds most people together to live is just that small light of joy they had five minutes ago before the five days of garbage. 

You have no idea what each person has went through, what their limits are, what they are good at, nada zip nothing.  Sometimes they themselves do not even know and with the endless possibilities out there?  They may never know even if they searched their whole life.  Nothing is as simple as you are making it out to be and it disgusts me you just claim all these people are nothing but losers making -excuses- so they feel better with failure.

Life is a struggle and sometimes only one goal at a time AT BEST is open to people.  Only someone who has been coddled can say what you have said with a straight face.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 04, 2011, 09:08:01 AM
Unless someone had a drug conviction, student loans continue to remain available...which brings us back to there being no rational excuse for not pursuing the college education...

Not true, no drug conviction, cannot get student loan to cover what I need for a bachelors degree. Nice try though.

A reminder from admin; please keep discussion civil and pertaining to the original topic. No personal attacks!

Z

Quote from: LordKAT on August 06, 2011, 05:40:01 AM
Not true, no drug conviction, cannot get student loan to cover what I need for a bachelors degree. Nice try though.

Those were the only bars I have EVER seen to some being denied for Stafford loans (and this thread would be the first occasion where I saw a Stafford denied for someone without a drug conviction).  And pretty much outside of a drug conviction, all one needed to do other than be willing to attend an accredited school was to have a pulse and be able to electronically sign the app. 

I also know people who are still taking out upwards of $80K this year alone for law school (lesser amounts for some in other grad programs).  Loans still exist.  And as long as lending exists for educational and trade pursuits, there is NO rational reason not to pursue the very training that enhances ones ability to be hired in a job that pays the bills (and then some). 

And no, I was NOT someone who was 'coddled.'  I had nothing given to me.  Admittedly I should have had my education without out of pocket expense but I got stupid and drank the scholarship away (living on a college campus at the age of 17 when the drinking age was 18 was NOT a wise thing to have done).  Consequently, everything in my career came out of my pocket in one form or another, as has housing and vehicles.  Were there places in the career where I could have played a 'life isn't fair' card?  Sure.  But I didn't and by having CHOSEN to persevere, I got to where I am today...

I don't want to continue to derail the thread--I'll get back on track in a minute--but loans can be denied for a number of reasons, not just drug convictions. A Stafford loan is ALMOST a guarantee for a school that is participating in the program. (Frankly, I would be suspicious of a school that isn't participating, but there could be non-suspect reasons that I'm unaware of.)

There are other reasons. If you have reached the max loan limit, you can't get more, of course. However, the limits are usually pretty generous. If you've defaulted on a previous loan--I think it has to be another federal loan--then they obviously aren't going to approve you for more loans. That can be a hard mistake to recover from. And it's always possible that a few people are denied because of mistakes or crossed wires.  Such denials should be reversed after an appeal.

I also suspect that some FTMs are denied on Selective Service grounds (most of us at Susan's Place have heard about this possibility already). I know that it happened with my friend's free aid just this year, although he got it sorted out in the end, after he went through some appeals. He is M with the state and F with the feds, and that caused some problems. I don't know the specifics--maybe he filled out the wrong gender box (which, of course, would be his error)--but I know that he was at first denied because he hadn't registered with Selective Service Systems. Any man, whether cisgender or trans, can be denied federal loans for not registering with SSS. The exemption letter, if a guy has one, should clear that up. Or he can just check the "F" box.

Back to the subject at hand. Frankly, I am disturbed by some of the attitudes expressed in this thread. NOWHERE does the article say that trans people of color and trans people from low-income backgrounds can't succeed. The article simply points out that such folks face MORE discrimination and MORE hurdles than other trans folks who don't have those factors in their lives.

The article isn't specific about why young Chris was unable to get financial aid for college. That's unfortunate because such details might clarify whether Chris is grappling with a drug conviction, Selective Service issues, or just plain ignorance about how to get the financial aid he supposedly needs. Young people are often ignorant or even completely misinformed about such things, and young people from families with no college history are even more likely to be in the dark.

Case in point: My father has a degree, but I didn't know anything about financial aid. As an undergrad, I went to my college's financial aid office to inquire about what I might be eligible for. The woman I talked to was supposedly an expert, but when I told her my father's income, she got huffy and rude. She told me that I didn't qualify for ANY aid of ANY kind. I was ignorant, and she was the expert, so I took her word for it.

At a certain point in grad school, I went to my grad institution's financial aid office to inquire about a small loan, and I was treated so rudely (perhaps because I was recognizably trans?) and dismissively that I realized that I would rather tough it out than be treated like that again. The woman I talked to did NOT lay out different types of aid and tell me what types of aid I was and was not eligible for. It was pretty plain that she just wanted to get rid of me, and she did. When I mentioned my experience to a roomful of my undergrad students, many of them told me that this kind of treatment was the rule rather than the exception. A few said that they had complained but that nothing had been done. Most of my students at that time were people of color, and a large portion were from working class families. I began to wonder if the financial aid employee was simply racist, classist, and transphobic. And maybe a little power-mad.

If you're eighteen or twenty years old, from a non-college background, and already on the wrong foot because you're trans, those "experts" and "advisors" and the whole bureaucracy can be pretty intimidating, especially if they turn you away and you take their word for it out of sheer ignorance. And I should add that if you're an FTM and were raised as a girl, to be quiet, compliant, and compromising, that can go double or even triple.

Quote from: Korlee on August 06, 2011, 02:12:30 AM
You and Ann seem to have it in your heads that everyone is exactly the same.  That each person born without an arm or some other BS all has a miracle talent deep within that makes them superman/woman that lets them overcome all of it.  After all each person grew up in the same schools, got beaten daily the same ways, raped the same way, spoken to by their parents the same exact way, has the exact same brain function as the person next to them, had the same kinda money, the same community to live in, or whatever other BS you want to pull out of your hat to say.

The simple fact is for every one -superjerk- out there that overcomes amazing odds?  There are ten more just like him/her with her/his disability that struggle each day just to get out of bed.  They do not have the brain type or skill to write with stub hands, swim without limbs, move fluidly without sight, yada yada.  No two people are even remotely the same.  Sometimes despite a miracle workers best efforts there are walls that can't be overcome for some people.  It means jack that you don't believe it because of one -superjerk- because that person could just be I dunno a -statistical anomaly-, had the right conditions to excel, the right community, support network, whatever that the next 99 people lacked.

Heck, the same is true for the plumber example.  The world can't be full of amazing plumbers! Also some areas don't even care if you are amazing they still pay you crap either way.  Lets not get into area politics or office politics that can steamroll even the best of people.  No matter how hard they try and or fight.  It can also only take one single mistake to ruin a persons reputation where they can never get work in that area again.

It just boggles my mind how you are trying to simplify life into some BS little cube.  That the ridiculous idea that one person can do something means everyone can!  The sheer disgusting truth is life isn't that damn beautiful!  Life is a disgusting horrid thing where there are an endless amount of lives where people get the shaft and it is no fault of their own.  The main thing that holds most people together to live is just that small light of joy they had five minutes ago before the five days of garbage. 

You have no idea what each person has went through, what their limits are, what they are good at, nada zip nothing.  Sometimes they themselves do not even know and with the endless possibilities out there?  They may never know even if they searched their whole life.  Nothing is as simple as you are making it out to be and it disgusts me you just claim all these people are nothing but losers making -excuses- so they feel better with failure.

Life is a struggle and sometimes only one goal at a time AT BEST is open to people.  Only someone who has been coddled can say what you have said with a straight face.

While is true that each and every one of us have "gifts" and "disabilities," straight and weakness, to deal with, there is people who seem content to blame their situation into something or somebody, and never take responsibilities for their own decisions. It is always some excuse, never their own fault.

I remember as a teen working during the day and going to night school, and seen the other teen boys and girls hanging out on the street, most of them work part time jobs just to blow their monies in smokes, drinks, or clothing.  Sometimes i used to stop and talk to them. They use to tell me that I was a fool and a weirdo because I was always studying or working.  They had the luxury of somebody feeding them, I was on my own.
After high school, these people continue the same life style, party  and working to continue partying (weed, smokes, buzz, sex) and doing nothing. Twenty years later I run into om of them who come to the hospital wounded after some brawl. They recognized me, and did talk with me. One of them said: "man, look at you!" "It is not fair." I asked him what is not fair? he said: "you got all the breaks!"
You have to f..... kidding me! I thought to myself.

Quote from: kate durcal on August 06, 2011, 03:46:36 PM
While is true that each and every one of us have "gifts" and "disabilities," straight and weakness, to deal with, there is people who seem content to blame their situation into something or somebody, and never take responsibilities for their own decisions. It is always some excuse, never their own fault.

Kate, I think people are just talking at cross purposes here and aren't understanding each other. I think we've all met people--both trans and non-trans--who always make excuses and who don't take responsibility for their own lives.

I have had a couple of non-trans friends like this. I am no longer friends with them, mainly because of their approach to life. I felt--perhaps incorrectly--that these people WERE capable of getting control of their lives. Perhaps they just needed more time than other people to do that; they may very well have gotten their lives on track since I broke off relations with them. I felt that they were sucking me dry; I got out of those friendships to save my own sanity.

But a lot of my trans friends struggle a great deal. Most have faced open discrimination, and some are still working through that. I can definitely say that the ones from "humble" class origins, on average, have had a tougher road than I have. And I know a few trans people of color who have faced additional discrimination that just makes their lives more difficult. So I think the article has some good points.

Occasionally, my friends will complain. I think they have good reason to; life has handed them some pretty steep obstacles. Sometimes they get bad information because of transphobic hostility, and that's another hurdle to get over. Sometimes they are very emotionally hurt by other people's hostility, and they have to lick their wounds until they are ready to try again.

But this does not mean that they are whiners who refuse to take responsibility for their lives. They are average folks, except for being trans; and because they are trans, they have to work harder than other people just to get by, let alone to make progress. The ones who face class and race barriers have it that much tougher. For trans people like them, such factors are reasons, not simply excuses.

You know how hard you worked to improve your life, so I'm sure you can imagine how tough it is for other trans people, some of whom are perhaps less fortunate and less resilient than you. They'll get there in their own way, following their own path. But it might be a longer and nastier path than other people encounter.

I have a perfectly fine education - educated to a masters level in a university with a top 5 national level and top 20 international.

I suppose I'm living on the breadline because I chose to a bit, I got my goals and I'm going to achieve them, even if it hurts my credit rating (which is a pair of words I can never think without putting them in a Frank Zappa voice).

Though the arrogance of saying it's the guy's fault he's been made to feel like ->-bleeped-<- because he didn't get a better education would be mind-blowing, if I hadn't spent enough time on internet forums with Americans.

I can see how my posting can come across insensitive or arrogant; but what I am supposed to do ? Promote defeatism and mediocrity? perpetuate a culture of victimization?

Kate D

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 03, 2011, 08:45:15 AM
there is NO reason for people to be entering the workforce without a proper college background that PREPARED them for decent employment...

was the one that inspired my little tirade actually.

And to be honest, I'd perpetuate a culture of co-operation and community.
It doesn't have to be master and servant, victim and champion, winner and loser - it's perfectly possible to create self-sustaining communities within the larger one where people find their places. A mediocre person with great friends is always going to be a happier, brighter, more interesting person than a lone high flier.

Or that could just be the words of a happy mediocrity.

If everyone had a white colar job.....


......who would do the labor?

Frank Zappa

Frank was fond of saying that if you wanted an education go to a library, if you want to get laid, go to college.

Quote from: cynthialee on August 06, 2011, 06:52:09 PM
If everyone had a white colar job.....


......who would do the labor?

Exactly!

Quote from: cynthialee on August 06, 2011, 06:52:09 PM
If everyone had a white colar job.....


......who would do the labor?

The same people who are currently doing it, the legal and illegal immigrants.

Just to comment, I actually recently stopped going to college mainly because my dysphoria and situation is just so horrible, I need to be able to work and get money quick to get the surgery done. I really need it done as soon as possible. Also, being in college in the middle of transition isn't too wonderful, especially if you're with the same group of guys 2 years straight, and they all see you as a female =(

I do plan on going back, but i'd have to be around this same time next year. If I can't get all my surgeries/recovery done by then though, I don't know what to do. Maybe wait another year after that.

Quote from: rexgsd on August 06, 2011, 08:15:11 PM
Just to comment, I actually recently stopped going to college mainly because my dysphoria and situation is just so horrible, I need to be able to work and get money quick to get the surgery done. I really need it done as soon as possible. Also, being in college in the middle of transition isn't too wonderful, especially if you're with the same group of guys 2 years straight, and they all see you as a female =(

I do plan on going back, but i'd have to be around this same time next year. If I can't get all my surgeries/recovery done by then though, I don't know what to do. Maybe wait another year after that.

Go back just as soon as you're ready.  People are fond of saying "once you drop out, you'll never go back".  It took me 14 years but I earned a bachelors degree.  I'm just over half way through my masters degree now.  Just promise yourself you'll go back.

My dad failed high school and now has a BA from Cambridge and a doctorate from Princeton.

Quote from: Pica Pica on August 06, 2011, 08:24:11 PM
My dad failed high school and now has a BA from Cambridge and a doctorate from Princeton.

I didn't want to put my ego ahead of myself, but I got kicked out of college twice for low grades, matured a little (ok a lot) and graduated with a 3.41 (and with "honors"), I'm maintaining a 3.85 in my masters program.

JB Hunt (of the trucking company) dropped out of high school, so did Jim Carrey...

Quote from: tekla on August 06, 2011, 07:52:26 PM
Frank Zappa

Frank was fond of saying that if you wanted an education go to a library, if you want to get laid, go to college.

I know that some old folks rave about Zappa as a great musician, but the best he could do was to come to number 10 in 1974 (Apostrophe). Now a days most Young people do not know who he was, his music is rarely played.

No other contributions, zilch, zip, nada; perhaps he would have done better have he gone to college.

Kate D

yeah and studied music so he could be just like The Kooks, or Two Door Cinema Club or whatever bland squash is piling the pound coins up at the moment.

Kate, I'll have to say, I see where you're coming from, but i don't believe in 'numbers' or chart positions. Besides, Zappa had a cult following. He might have not been as popular with the main crowd, but he had a hell of a cult following. He's just wacky, and that's also why they aren't really gonna play his stuff on the radio haha. Along with it's obscenities sometimes.

And not everyone has a statue of them in Vilnius
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwhywhywhywhywhy.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2009%2F02%2Fzappa39.jpg&hash=58424362d1828aaae691a4e575ded3e7d367afe6)

I like Vilnius, I want our mayor to do unto those in Kensington what their mayor is doing.

Vilnius Mayor A.Zuokas Fights Illegally Parked Cars with Tank (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-fWN0FmcIU#)

Quote from: kate durcal on August 06, 2011, 08:28:44 PM
I know that some old folks rave about Zappa as a great musician, but the best he could do was to come to number 10 in 1974 (Apostrophe). Now a days most Young people do not know who he was, his music is rarely played.

No other contributions, zilch, zip, nada; perhaps he would have done better have he gone to college.

Kate D

Having hit songs isn't the only criteria to judge artistry or recognition. In his later years, FZ composed orchestral music and it was performed and recorded by top symphonies. He also become involved in politics and notably testified in Congress against censorship of music. Not exactly zilch in terms of contributions.

Z

Quote from: kate durcal on August 06, 2011, 08:10:25 PM
The same people who are currently doing it, the legal and illegal immigrants.

I can't believe that you would say that trash.
I will no longer talk to you, that response was bigoted.

The same people who are currently doing it, the same people who always have done it... the legal and illegal immigrants men and poor women.  She said, "somebody has to. Clean all this away. Somebody, SOMEBODY Has to, you see." Then she picked out two Somebodies. Sally and me. ...  And, as is the way of the world - its' going to be the busiest people, not the ones kicking back doing squat.  And I know lots of people who do both kinds of work, day in and day out.  If you can only do 'blue' collar, or only do "white" collar work you are halfway to useless.  And give the choice I'll take the blue collar types, they have a way of getting things done.  And they know how to work.  Naturally I want the person who can tune an engine, build something off of blueprints, write poems and knows how to spell or at least use a spell checker and knows Robert's Rules of Order.  But if I have to only have one, give me the first.^*

And if your name is not Spirit Who Runs with Clouds and Hates White Guys, like you know, if it's anglo/saxton/german/spanish any of that Eurotrash, your either a legal or illegal immigrants.  BTW, bet my Mexican GF's family has been here longer than most of your families.  Came up from Mexico in the 1820s to Texas and Cali (or what would become after a few wars for Empire).  They were in Mexico, or at least a huge part of the family bloodline was, for, like, well forever.



Yeah, the only people I ever hear talk about Zappa's music, are musicians and people in the industry.  Pretty much I think both parts of it (the music and the lyrics) are over most people's heads.  Almost always one of them is.  If someone is into music enough to understand what's he doing most likely they will really, really, hate the lyrics.  People, like poseur kids who think the lyrics are 'cool' because they are edgy or dirty or whatever rarely - if ever - get the music.  But I can see cases here where it's both.    He didn't have 'hits in the charts' because for the most part he was not a rock star, he was a composer.  Or as my old roomate Wild Bob, who is a classically trained flutist and harpsichord player, always said, "Frank is the only rock star classical musicians listen to."   But musicians talk about him all the time because he's the kind of musician that other musicians put on when they get home.  You know when one of the Dylan boys (I forget who) had a huge hit record in the early 90s?  Well that record sold so many copies that it outsold (at least for a time) dads' entire catalog.  He had more hits, at least recently, and at any rate I think Dylan's songs have sold more by other artists then they have by him.   By your reasoning that means the kid is much more important than dad.  Oh, wait.  Maybe not.

See it's not so much how many records Dylan sold, it's who he sold them to and who listened to them.  OK, so Joe Blow with the Cool Hair who's this weeks hot new thing sells records to tekla and Kate.  And we go home and listen to them.  What's the upshot, other than he's a few lug nuts closer to a Ferrari.  But... but... but.   If a Jerry Garcia buys it, listens to it, tries to work it out, gets the band to play it in the next rehearsal, and then next thing they are playing it to 50,000 people.  Maybe Jerry records it, and more money to bob, more exposure, more fans.  So selling one record to Jerry Garcia (or Garth Brooks) is a lot more important then selling 10 records to people who don't matter.

So, what's the Wiki say 'bout Frank? In a career spanning more than 30 years, Zappa wrote rock, jazz, orchestral and musique concrète works. He also directed feature-length films and music videos, and designed album covers. Zappa produced almost all of the more than 60 albums he released with the band The Mothers of Invention and as a solo artist.

Wait, what's that?  Two records a year for 30 years?  Minus endless greatest hits and 'live' versions of previously released stuff, the Rolling Stones have, well - they have 47 with all that filler.  About 25 counting only original stuff.  25.  Less than have of what Zappa did.

Oh yeah, it's estimated that there are over 32,000 hours of unreleased tape down in the The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen (his home studio) and all the concert recordings too.

See, that's what real genisus do, they just crank it out.  It's not some huge effort, like trying to give birth to a baby elephant or something.  Screw the masterpiece, forget fame, don't worry about popular.  Write it, rehearse it, release it.   If it's what you do, you just do it.  You are not going to know any of that popular, fame, masterpiece stuff for years anyway.

I mean if I only like about 10% of what Frank did (that's just about fair) that 10% is a lot more music than most bands put out in their career.  "Peaches en Regalia" and "Zoot Allures" are as pretty as anything else ever written in rock, and "Let's Move to Cleveland," and "The Torture Never Stops" are as anthematic a build to the tonic chord as anyone has ever written.  Obviously I'm a huge fan of "Penguin in Bondage," for the obvious reasons.

But to each their own.  Here are my favs.

Absolutely Free
Apostrophe/Overnight Sensation
Fillmore East - June 1971
Freak Out!
Cruising with Ruben & the Jets - which is, tribute?  parody?  Do-wop set to Stravinsky?  Sure, all that and more.
Shut Up and Play Your Guitar
You Can't Do That on Stage Anymore, Vols 1- 6
Does Humor Belong in Music?/Tinseltown Rebellion - I love these two, which are Frank's tribute to his very own industry.  They are the final chapter and epilogue to We're Only in it for the Money
The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life

But let's just look at one of them.

We're Only in it for the Money - The 'answer record' to the Beatles Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band.  On the cover they are dressed in really, really bad drag and instead of things spelled out in flowers, it's spelled out in raw meat.  The only, and I mean ONLY, real critique of Rock Music.  They are not  some sort of Desperado, they are not 'like a band of gypsies rolling down the highway', they are people trying to do a job and make money.  And it's mostly fake.

Walked past the wig store
Danced at the Fillmore
I'm completely stoned
I'm hippy & I'm trippy
I'm a gypsy on my own
I'll stay a week & get the crabs &
Take a bus back home
I'm really just a phony
But forgive me
'Cause I'm stoned

Every town must have a place
Where phony hippies meet
Psychedelic dungeons
Popping up on every street
GO TO SAN FRANCISCO . . .

First I'll buy some beads
And then perhaps a leather band
To go around my head
Some feathers and bells
And a book of Indian lore
I will ask the Chamber Of Commerce
How to get to Haight Street
And smoke an awful lot of dope
I will wander around barefoot
I will have a psychedelic gleam in my eye at all times
I will love everyone
I will love the police as they kick the ->-bleeped-<- out of me on the street

->-bleeped-<-, he wrote that in 1968, and it's still all 100% true.  And yes, we do sing that to ourselves and each other at the Fillmore.  We have a sense of humor.

Mama! Mama!
Someone said they made some noise
The cops have shot some girls & boys
You'll sit home & drink all night
They looked too weird . . . it served them right

And my favorite, and I'll send this out to all of you, well you know who you are...

What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)
But I think it's YOUR MIND
(Your mind)
I think it's your mind, woo woo

ALL YOUR CHILDREN ARE POOR
UNFORTUNATE VICTIMS OF
SYSTEMS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL
A PLAGUE UPON YOUR IGNORANCE & THE GRAY
DESPAIR OF YOUR UGLY LIFE

Then he gets down to it.  Short.  Concise.  To the point.  To wit:

FZ on the left:  It's one of the most exciting things that's ever happened to me. You know, every time I think about how lucky I am to be in the rock & roll industry, it's SO exciting. You know, when I first got into the rock & roll business I could barely even play the changes to this song on my, on my guitar. But now I'm very proficient at it, I can play the guitar, I can strum it rhythmically, I can sing along with my guitar as I strum. I can strum, sing, dance, I can make merry fun all over the stage. And you know, it's so wonderful to . . . It's wonderful to feel that I'm doing something for the kids, because I know that the kids and their music are where it's at. The youth of America today is so wonderful . . . And I'm proud to be a part of this gigantic mass deception. I hope she sees me twirling, yes . . . I hope she sees me dancing and twirling, I will say: "Hello, dolly!" Is the song over?

FZ on the right: Boy, this is really exciting, making a rock & roll record. I can't even wait until our record comes out and the teen-agers start to buy it. We'll all be rich and famous! When my royalty check comes I think I'm going to buy a Mustang. No, I think I'll . . . I think I'll get a Corvette. No, I think I'll get a Harley Davidson. No, I don't think I'll buy any of those cars. I think what I will do is I will buy a boat. No, that wouldn't be good either. I think, ah, I'll go into real estate. I think I would like to . . . I think I would like to buy La Cienega Boulevard. No, that wouldn't do any good. Gee, I wonder if they can see me up here, twirling my tambourine and dancing . . .
Maybe after the show one of the girls who sees me up here, singing and twirling my tambourine and dancing, will like me. And she will come over to me and I will walk . . . I will walk up to her and I will smile at her and I will impress her and I will say: "Hello, baby, what's a girl like you doing in a place like this? I'm from a rock & roll band, I think we should . . . "
Is the song over?


* - A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.  -Robert A. Heinlein

Quote from: cynthialee on August 06, 2011, 10:02:57 PM
I can't believe that you would say that trash.
I will no longer talk to you, that response was bigoted.

Take a survey of any farm field, or construction site, or any menial jobs field, and you will find that the majority of people doing those jobs are immigrants.


Nothing new about this phenomena, it happened to the Irish, Italian, Jews, Polish, and now to the hispanics. The questions those people face as a group are; would they transcend their situation  and integrate or would they mantain their second rate situation? More often than not escape from poverty and ignorance is achieve by education. It start at home by mother who demand excellence from their children, no mediocrity, no excuses.

I came to this country alone and with the proverbial "suit case." I love America because if you want to further yourself the opportunities are unending. You really do not comprehend the magnitude of American op portunites unless you have live in other countries.

I do not think that by stating the true about who is doing the menial job constitute a bigot statement. You do not want to talk to me, that is fine, but I will continue to vocally oppose  a life style and philosophy of life that promotes mediocrity, a sense of entitlement, and a "culture of victimization."

Kate D

Quote from: regan on August 06, 2011, 08:19:24 PM
Go back just as soon as you're ready.  People are fond of saying "once you drop out, you'll never go back".  It took me 14 years but I earned a bachelors degree.  I'm just over half way through my masters degree now.  Just promise yourself you'll go back.

BINGO!

I made the mistake of being in college WAAAAY to early (I graduated early and had a full scholarship, but it was back when the drinking age was still 18- and I wasn't).  After the semester from hell that many years later would limit choices of law school, I did the 'go to school a semester, get bored and go to work, get bored and go back to school' routine.  I then took several years off and finally went back to finish the undergrad degree (finally transitioning in the process both at school and in the workplace in a profile position).  Since only the grades in residence counted for class rank (junior and senior year were in residence), I graduated with honors...cumulative as calculated anywhere other than for law school was 3.31 (LSDAC had me at 3.08 because they factor in the semester from hell).

Going back to school (college or otherwise) or even simply getting life in order can ALWAYS be done if one is motivated enough...and this holds just as true for persons of a trans- background as it does for my clients who are returning to the community with felony convictions to have to overcome.  Even with the crappy economy foisted upon the US population by the current PotUS, opportunities still exist for those who shed the victim labels...

Education can`t fix stupid, but it can acredit it,  need money, make money, Trades people are still in demand , because of the mentality that you gotta getta degree to make money, bull->-bleeped-<-. I do okay, but, i`m versitile, and i study alot of things,never rest on what you know.  I escaped the poverty of my area without leaving, cause I learned to do stuff.  And then there`s always crime, crime pays if you don`t get caught. Stupid criminals get caught, smart ones get wealthy. 

Quote from: tekla on August 07, 2011, 01:54:37 AM
The same people who are currently doing it, the same people who always have done it... the legal and illegal immigrants men and poor women.  She said, "somebody has to. Clean all this away. Somebody, SOMEBODY Has to, you see." Then she picked out two Somebodies. Sally and me. ...  And, as is the way of the world - its' going to be the busiest people, not the ones kicking back doing squat.  And I know lots of people who do both kinds of work, day in and day out.  If you can only do 'blue' collar, or only do "white" collar work you are halfway to useless.  And give the choice I'll take the blue collar types, they have a way of getting things done.  And they know how to work.  Naturally I want the person who can tune an engine, build something off of blueprints, write poems and knows how to spell or at least use a spell checker and knows Robert's Rules of Order.  But if I have to only have one, give me the first.^*

And if your name is not Spirit Who Runs with Clouds and Hates White Guys, like you know, if it's anglo/saxton/german/spanish any of that Eurotrash, your either a legal or illegal immigrants.  BTW, bet my Mexican GF's family has been here longer than most of your families.  Came up from Mexico in the 1820s to Texas and Cali (or what would become after a few wars for Empire).  They were in Mexico, or at least a huge part of the family bloodline was, for, like, well forever.



Yeah, the only people I ever hear talk about Zappa's music, are musicians and people in the industry.  Pretty much I think both parts of it (the music and the lyrics) are over most people's heads.  Almost always one of them is.  If someone is into music enough to understand what's he doing most likely they will really, really, hate the lyrics.  People, like poseur kids who think the lyrics are 'cool' because they are edgy or dirty or whatever rarely - if ever - get the music.  But I can see cases here where it's both.    He didn't have 'hits in the charts' because for the most part he was not a rock star, he was a composer.  Or as my old roomate Wild Bob, who is a classically trained flutist and harpsichord player, always said, "Frank is the only rock star classical musicians listen to."   But musicians talk about him all the time because he's the kind of musician that other musicians put on when they get home.  You know when one of the Dylan boys (I forget who) had a huge hit record in the early 90s?  Well that record sold so many copies that it outsold (at least for a time) dads' entire catalog.  He had more hits, at least recently, and at any rate I think Dylan's songs have sold more by other artists then they have by him.   By your reasoning that means the kid is much more important than dad.  Oh, wait.  Maybe not.

See it's not so much how many records Dylan sold, it's who he sold them to and who listened to them.  OK, so Joe Blow with the Cool Hair who's this weeks hot new thing sells records to tekla and Kate.  And we go home and listen to them.  What's the upshot, other than he's a few lug nuts closer to a Ferrari.  But... but... but.   If a Jerry Garcia buys it, listens to it, tries to work it out, gets the band to play it in the next rehearsal, and then next thing they are playing it to 50,000 people.  Maybe Jerry records it, and more money to bob, more exposure, more fans.  So selling one record to Jerry Garcia (or Garth Brooks) is a lot more important then selling 10 records to people who don't matter.

So, what's the Wiki say 'bout Frank? In a career spanning more than 30 years, Zappa wrote rock, jazz, orchestral and musique concrète works. He also directed feature-length films and music videos, and designed album covers. Zappa produced almost all of the more than 60 albums he released with the band The Mothers of Invention and as a solo artist.

Wait, what's that?  Two records a year for 30 years?  Minus endless greatest hits and 'live' versions of previously released stuff, the Rolling Stones have, well - they have 47 with all that filler.  About 25 counting only original stuff.  25.  Less than have of what Zappa did.

Oh yeah, it's estimated that there are over 32,000 hours of unreleased tape down in the The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen (his home studio) and all the concert recordings too.

See, that's what real genisus do, they just crank it out.  It's not some huge effort, like trying to give birth to a baby elephant or something.  Screw the masterpiece, forget fame, don't worry about popular.  Write it, rehearse it, release it.   If it's what you do, you just do it.  You are not going to know any of that popular, fame, masterpiece stuff for years anyway.

I mean if I only like about 10% of what Frank did (that's just about fair) that 10% is a lot more music than most bands put out in their career.  "Peaches en Regalia" and "Zoot Allures" are as pretty as anything else ever written in rock, and "Let's Move to Cleveland," and "The Torture Never Stops" are as anthematic a build to the tonic chord as anyone has ever written.  Obviously I'm a huge fan of "Penguin in Bondage," for the obvious reasons.

But to each their own.  Here are my favs.

Absolutely Free
Apostrophe/Overnight Sensation
Fillmore East - June 1971
Freak Out!
Cruising with Ruben & the Jets - which is, tribute?  parody?  Do-wop set to Stravinsky?  Sure, all that and more.
Shut Up and Play Your Guitar
You Can't Do That on Stage Anymore, Vols 1- 6
Does Humor Belong in Music?/Tinseltown Rebellion - I love these two, which are Frank's tribute to his very own industry.  They are the final chapter and epilogue to We're Only in it for the Money
The Best Band You Never Heard in Your Life

But let's just look at one of them.

We're Only in it for the Money - The 'answer record' to the Beatles Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band.  On the cover they are dressed in really, really bad drag and instead of things spelled out in flowers, it's spelled out in raw meat.  The only, and I mean ONLY, real critique of Rock Music.  They are not  some sort of Desperado, they are not 'like a band of gypsies rolling down the highway', they are people trying to do a job and make money.  And it's mostly fake.

Walked past the wig store
Danced at the Fillmore
I'm completely stoned
I'm hippy & I'm trippy
I'm a gypsy on my own
I'll stay a week & get the crabs &
Take a bus back home
I'm really just a phony
But forgive me
'Cause I'm stoned

Every town must have a place
Where phony hippies meet
Psychedelic dungeons
Popping up on every street
GO TO SAN FRANCISCO . . .

First I'll buy some beads
And then perhaps a leather band
To go around my head
Some feathers and bells
And a book of Indian lore
I will ask the Chamber Of Commerce
How to get to Haight Street
And smoke an awful lot of dope
I will wander around barefoot
I will have a psychedelic gleam in my eye at all times
I will love everyone
I will love the police as they kick the ->-bleeped-<- out of me on the street

->-bleeped-<-, he wrote that in 1968, and it's still all 100% true.  And yes, we do sing that to ourselves and each other at the Fillmore.  We have a sense of humor.

Mama! Mama!
Someone said they made some noise
The cops have shot some girls & boys
You'll sit home & drink all night
They looked too weird . . . it served them right

And my favorite, and I'll send this out to all of you, well you know who you are...

What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
What's the ugliest
Part of your body?
Some say your nose
Some say your toes
(I think it's your mind)
But I think it's YOUR MIND
(Your mind)
I think it's your mind, woo woo

ALL YOUR CHILDREN ARE POOR
UNFORTUNATE VICTIMS OF
SYSTEMS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL
A PLAGUE UPON YOUR IGNORANCE & THE GRAY
DESPAIR OF YOUR UGLY LIFE

Then he gets down to it.  Short.  Concise.  To the point.  To wit:

FZ on the left:  It's one of the most exciting things that's ever happened to me. You know, every time I think about how lucky I am to be in the rock & roll industry, it's SO exciting. You know, when I first got into the rock & roll business I could barely even play the changes to this song on my, on my guitar. But now I'm very proficient at it, I can play the guitar, I can strum it rhythmically, I can sing along with my guitar as I strum. I can strum, sing, dance, I can make merry fun all over the stage. And you know, it's so wonderful to . . . It's wonderful to feel that I'm doing something for the kids, because I know that the kids and their music are where it's at. The youth of America today is so wonderful . . . And I'm proud to be a part of this gigantic mass deception. I hope she sees me twirling, yes . . . I hope she sees me dancing and twirling, I will say: "Hello, dolly!" Is the song over?

FZ on the right: Boy, this is really exciting, making a rock & roll record. I can't even wait until our record comes out and the teen-agers start to buy it. We'll all be rich and famous! When my royalty check comes I think I'm going to buy a Mustang. No, I think I'll . . . I think I'll get a Corvette. No, I think I'll get a Harley Davidson. No, I don't think I'll buy any of those cars. I think what I will do is I will buy a boat. No, that wouldn't be good either. I think, ah, I'll go into real estate. I think I would like to . . . I think I would like to buy La Cienega Boulevard. No, that wouldn't do any good. Gee, I wonder if they can see me up here, twirling my tambourine and dancing . . .
Maybe after the show one of the girls who sees me up here, singing and twirling my tambourine and dancing, will like me. And she will come over to me and I will walk . . . I will walk up to her and I will smile at her and I will impress her and I will say: "Hello, baby, what's a girl like you doing in a place like this? I'm from a rock & roll band, I think we should . . . "
Is the song over?


* - A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.  -Robert A. Heinlein

dear Tekla,

Despite your impresive homage 100 years from now they -the social/protest singers Dylan, Zappa,  Baez, etc- will be but a footnote in history at best.

You lost your usual clarity. What exactly are you advocating? No education?  Comunism? Anarchism?

Kate D

You really do not comprehend the magnitude of American op portunites unless you have live in other countries.
True that, and if you've gone to a non-Western nation, it's amazing.  One of the best/most incredibly mindbogglingly stupid things I ever did was go with a couple of friends of mine on a motorcycle ride to the Panama Canal and back.  I was between HS and college, it was the 80s, Reagan was President and some of the countries we rode through were having a civil war.  When we got to Managua I thought the town was full of religious nuts because all the men were carrying those little leather cases that back home always contained a bible.  In Managua they held pistols.  Have some kid (and I was 18, so he was 15/16?) level an automatic rifle at you, it will change the way you think.

Take a survey of any farm field, or construction site, or any menial jobs field, and you will find that the majority of people doing those jobs are immigrants
I don't think of construction as 'menial' - really, it totally matters how well something is built.  And, could it be, that the reason so many immigrants are in construction is because they grew up doing that work and not sitting in front of the TV or game system?  That they might actually know how to, like, work, and have the skills to do it right?  Because when I'm out doing events and lot of the side crews are Mexican, those guys work their asses off.  Good luck finding some middle-class white boy who can put in that kind of effort.

Trades people are still in demand
And always will be.  If you can build, repair, fix, or give great sex you won't starve because it's not going to build itself, it's not going to fix itself, and it's not going to suck itself either.  The demise of 'trade school' education in the US is a very sad thing.  College is great, I love learning and reading and all that, and the group sex deal was fun too - but most of what most people learn in college is not usefull in an economic sense.  No one is going to pay you (unless you are a college professor, in which case they pay you, but don't listen) for your opinion on Jane Austin.  And, for all of Ann's highfalutin' college talk I'll let you in on a dirty little secret.  She went to trade school too.  Law, like medicine, and fine arts, are trades, they are just done in a college setting.  Hell I was working steady and in a union apprenticeship  program before I finished my degree in stagecraft.  Although to be fair, most liberal arts majors are working at a coffee shop, so I guess they out doing their live's work too.


Stupid criminals get caught, smart ones get wealthy.   Really good ones get elected.  Steal a little they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you the king. - Bob Dylan

Quote from: tekla on August 07, 2011, 12:53:03 PM
You really do not comprehend the magnitude of American op portunites unless you have live in other countries.
True that, and if you've gone to a non-Western nation, it's amazing.  One of the best/most incredibly mindbogglingly stupid things I ever did was go with a couple of friends of mine on a motorcycle ride to the Panama Canal and back.  I was between HS and college, it was the 80s, Reagan was President and some of the countries we rode through were having a civil war.  When we got to Managua I thought the town was full of religious nuts because all the men were carrying those little leather cases that back home always contained a bible.  In Managua they held pistols.  Have some kid (and I was 18, so he was 15/16?) level an automatic rifle at you, it will change the way you think.

Har, har, just to think that we may have crossed paths is enough to make me smile. I was one of those kids who got involved in a war I had no bussines to be in. Nothing is more exhilaration and horrible as combat. It never live you, specially at night. Only good thing it left me was the "situational awareness," ability to stay "frosty," anticipate, and "trust" you guts instincts.

I am ....old, I really hate saying my chronological age, my mind says 25, my body 35, my license says oh no! Look, I did my share of menail jobs, and have witness the unjustice of our current society, no system is perfect, but sure gays and women and blacks and hispanics and transgender are sure better off today (2011) than in 1965. Yes, there is room for improvement, but surely a more educated workforce and society would help towards a more justice system, yes?

Kate D

the social/protest singers Dylan, Zappa,  Baez, etc- will be but a footnote in history at best.

My guess (and it's a fairly educated one at that) is that 100 years from now Zappa and Dylan (and the Beatles) are going to be about the only musicians from this period/genre that anyone will be talking about in music schools.  In part that's because what they leave is a real body of quality work.  So the late 20th Century American contribution to music is pretty much going to be Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Dylan, and Zappa.  In this order: Coltrane, Dylan, Davis, Zappa.

A few months ago Rolling Stone did a cover story for Bob's 70th Birthday.  They got a bunch of music types to write on the 70 best Dylan songs.  And the list is monumental.  Who else wrote 70 really good songs?  His website lists 458 that he's written, and that's only listing the ones that have been published and recorded.  He may well have hundreds more that are just sitting notebooks or on tape.  The way he writes and records leaves a lot of room for other musicians to come in and really make the song theirs.  From Peter, Paul and Mary (two rabbis and whore), to Garth Brooks, to the Dead, the Stones, jazz bands, Gillian Welch and David Rawling's mighty version of "Idiot Wind", the Ramones, Nick Drake, Nora Jones,  Rage Against the Machine does a killer"Maggie's Farm" --  plus, 16 horsepower, ani difranco, antony, beck, buddy miller, calexico, cat power, chrissie hynde, conor oberst, cowboy junkies, doc watson, emmylou harris, fairport convention, flying burrito brothers, george harrison, indigo girls, iron and wine, jason and the scorchers, jim james, jimi hendrix, joan osborne, johnny cash, lou reed,m. ward, mitch ryder, neil young,nick cave, nico, nina simone, p.j. harvey, patti smith, pearl jam, richie havens, sam cooke, shawn colvin, sufjan stevens, susan tedeschi, the band, the byrds, the white stripes, tracy chapman, van morrison, yo la tengo

now I suppose you could have a fluke happening, but this seems a bit more than that.  And if you're somehow implying that Johnny Cash, Emmylou Harris, Doc Watson, Van Morrison and Nina Simone are marginal talents, or don't know what they are doing, well that's just silly.  What's interesting to me is that no one seems to have any trouble crossing the gender gap (which makes for a very interesting Idiot Wind, and really give's the Indigo Girls' Tangled Up in Blue an strange twist, not to mention the entire Blood On The Tracks which was done for years by Mary Lee's Corvette in some NYC bar.  There you have about as good a 'breakup/lost love/divorce' record as has ever been put out.  (The only one to really be able to stand with it is Shoot Out the Lights by Richard and Linda Thompson - now there's a record that will make you think that never falling in love and staying single for the rest of your life is a great idea).  And the change of the narrator in Simple Twist of Fate, If You See Her Say Hello, and Shelter from the Storm adds all sorts of new layers and understandings.

So people are still going to be talking about him a hundred years from now, the same way people still talk about Rev. Thomas A. Dorsey, or the Gershwins, or Steven Foster, because people are still doing those songs.  People still talk about Beethoven and Mozart and they've been dead for a while now.


If I were to count, I bet out of those 500 or so Dylan songs only a few, like Hard Rain, Masters of War, and Blowin in the Wind are true protest songs.  And Zappa never wrote a protest song.  As would be expected for someone who said:  'I wrote a song about dental floss but did anyone's teeth get cleaner?'  Nah, people like protest songs, makes them feel all hippy dippy love love love hug a tree and that crap.  What Zappa wrote was opinion (I paint what I see) satire, and parody - and you are always going to suffer for that stuff because you'll be a  victim of society's unwillingness to laugh at its own weaknesses or see it's own faults.  So, if you're saying, as he did, that Americans like to talk about (or be told about) Democracy but, when put to the test, usually find it to be an 'inconvenience.' We have opted instead for an authoritarian system disguised as a Democracy well the USA #1 crowd is not going to beat a path to your door.

Now I've always loved his quote: If you wind up with a boring, miserable life because you listened to your mom, your dad, your teacher, your priest or some guy on TV telling you how to do your ->-bleeped-<-, then YOU DESERVE IT.  Again, in our white-washed, media consumed, just keep shopping society telling people to ignore their parents, and priests, and teachers, and the TV - WHAT IGNORE THE TV? - well it's not the golden ticket to having people line up around the block to give you their kids to molest like old Michael Jackson there.

But I'm thinking he wrote this one for you: Most people wouldn't know music if it came up and bit them on the ass.

but surely a more educated workforce and society would help towards a more justice system, yes?

Part of the problem with jobs in the current age is that we have so many highly educated workers that we simply need fewer of them.  But an educated workforce helps with economic stuff.  But justice?  I doubt it.  Most kids know right from wrong, it's not a matter of education, its more a matter of having a heart.

A reminder, personal attacks and insulting other members are not tolerated! Offending posts will be deleted (as the last two have been) and users issued warnings!

News Admin

Aww, I went for a long ride up in the hills and you two decide to have a douche-bag contest.  That's like having baseball playoffs without the Yankees, or Basketball finals without the Lakers or Celts.  Really. 

For the record, a dollar is far more money than I'd trust the two of you with, combined.

By about .90 cents.

Now both of you go out and rock that nickle.



What exactly are you advocating? No education?  Comunism? Anarchism?
Actually I was advocating for taste and some degree of real world thinking.  Useless I know.  I'd just be happy if people could be a little bit less dumb all over.  Which is what Frank kinda wanted too.  (Despite the fact that stupidity is your best entertainment value.)  What Zappa was trying to say in all of that was that 'your favorite pop star'/ 'rock icon' / totally cool music guy is, in fact, a nerd who is just using an image to fill a bank account.  All of that rock/music biz 'peace and love' was just as much totally full of ->-bleeped-<- as the military's constant 'we're fighting for freedom and democratic values' crap was - they were playing for more money for people who were already rich, just like the military was fighting to make the world safe for American corporations to make even more money.  Lies on the right, and lies on the left.  Both were not doing what they were advocating.  How's it go?  Clowns to the right of me, jokers to the left, here I am, stuck in the middle with you.

Quote from: kate durcal on August 07, 2011, 10:01:08 AM
Take a survey of any farm field, or construction site, or any menial jobs field, and you will find that the majority of people doing those jobs are immigrants.


Nothing new about this phenomena, it happened to the Irish, Italian, Jews, Polish, and now to the hispanics. The questions those people face as a group are; would they transcend their situation  and integrate or would they mantain their second rate situation? More often than not escape from poverty and ignorance is achieve by education. It start at home by mother who demand excellence from their children, no mediocrity, no excuses.

I came to this country alone and with the proverbial "suit case." I love America because if you want to further yourself the opportunities are unending. You really do not comprehend the magnitude of American op portunites unless you have live in other countries.

I do not think that by stating the true about who is doing the menial job constitute a bigot statement. You do not want to talk to me, that is fine, but I will continue to vocally oppose  a life style and philosophy of life that promotes mediocrity, a sense of entitlement, and a "culture of victimization."

Kate D

You want to know why your response was bigoted?

Context.

Here's what Ann said first:

QuotePerhaps the most telling and poignant element of the article...and it seems to generally lend credence to the old saying that those who fail to plan have planned to fail. 

Further, with people coming out as transsexual earlier and earlier in the present era, there is NO reason for people to be entering the workforce without a proper college background that PREPARED them for decent employment...

Then Cynthia asked:

QuoteIf everyone had a white colar job.....


......who would do the labor?

And you replied:

QuoteThe same people who are currently doing it, the legal and illegal immigrants.

In the context of the conversation, your response comes across as an extremely bigoted statement that...well, basically that immigrants aren't people. Or at least not the kind of people who matter.

You and Ann seem to agree on not caring about trans workers' rights in blue-collar and service industries, because apparently the only people who matter to you are the ones who can get white-collar professional jobs. Now, that in itself is not fine with me, but I'd probably have left it without comment because I prefer not to waste my time arguing with people who hold those kinds of views. But you crossed the line when you stated explicitly that you expect that those jobs you refuse to care about will/should be filled with immigrants.

Quote from: kyril on August 07, 2011, 07:50:24 PM
You want to know why your response was bigoted?

Context.

Here's what Ann said first:
Then Cynthia asked:
And you replied:
In the context of the conversation, your response comes across as an extremely bigoted statement that...well, basically that immigrants aren't people. Or at least not the kind of people who matter.

You and Ann seem to agree on not caring about trans workers' rights in blue-collar and service industries, because apparently the only people who matter to you are the ones who can get white-collar professional jobs. Now, that in itself is not fine with me, but I'd probably have left it without comment because I prefer not to waste my time arguing with people who hold those kinds of views. But you crossed the line when you stated explicitly that you expect that those jobs you refuse to care about will/should be filled with immigrants.

Your time sucks; the thread has evolve into a diferent point. I will look back what I posted and in responso to what, and compose a response. But I seem to recall was about getting an education so you do not have to do menail jobs. Stand-by

You know, you seem to be a very articulated and intelligent youmg man, so i am going to tell you that I tend to the right side of threads as it seems to me this forum seem to be composed of people bent into pusing their socialist agenda. This forum reflects what is going on in America, we are fightiing the unfinished cultural war of the 60's. My views are diametrically opposed to the liberals, that is all.

Kate D

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 03, 2011, 08:45:15 AM
Perhaps the most telling and poignant element of the article...and it seems to generally lend credence to the old saying that those who fail to plan have planned to fail. 

Further, with people coming out as transsexual earlier and earlier in the present era, there is NO reason for people to be entering the workforce without a proper college background that PREPARED them for decent employment...

Kyril,

I fail to see just what is so unfair about what Ann posted. Like i said before, I was in the streets at 13 years of age. I mange through hard work and charm to earn 2 doctor, 1 maters, and i m working in a second master. I work in the farm fields, mechanic shops, gymnasiums, school halls, and yes, now I have a wonderful job and make a decent earning. I made many sacrifices when young; instead of buying a motorbike, rode a bike, instead of partying, I read books, etc, etc. And I am not the only one. I plan my life, so what is so wrong to preach planing? And if you are in your late 40's and still doing the ->-bleeped-<- Job you did 20 years ago, whose fault it is? And when you come to me with the lame excuse, I am sorry man, I do not buy it.

I am not being bigot or mean, I am demanding accountability.

Kate D

Quote from: kate durcal on August 04, 2011, 05:41:27 PM
Get an engineering and/or hard sciences degree and you are guarantied to get a job

Kate D

Kyril

Here is my fisrt post in this thread which was in response to Teklas post # 4
What is so bigot about? Is this a poor advice?

Kate D

Quote from: kate durcal on August 05, 2011, 05:04:48 PM
Tekla,

If by time you are declaring your engineering type you have not done a survey of the hiring prospect in that field, or if knowing the prospects you still forge ahead, then you are a donkey and deserve to unemployed. Yes, even in engineering and sciences, in order to secure your future you have to seek advance degrees.

Cynthia Lee,

You argument of the "I have GID" reminds me of the "Oh, it is because I am Hispanic" narrative.

By the time we are eighteen year old or so, we all,GID-affected, black-affected, even the poor WASPs, have to get off our lazy asses, stop playing video games, turning tricks, make a plan, endure the sacrifices, work.

Stop using GID as a crouch, take responsibility for your action.

Kate D

Kyril,

Again, ther intent of my post is to draw attention to the lack of planning and lack of responsability. Nothing bigot about, yes?

we are fightiing the unfinished cultural war of the 60's.

Who's we? I don't think I said anything positive about those people at all.  I called them poseurs, lying through their teeth with every breath, fakes,  and greedy money grabbing morons.  And I said that about both sides.  Just because one side is wrong, does not automatically make the other side right.

The only people who are still carrying that torch for the battles of the sixties are the people who lost.

Quote from: kate durcal on August 05, 2011, 11:57:30 PM
I am not single out, but I can say: "Oh, so damge by GID, but that does not seem to stop you or other from getting boob or vags"

Forget about GID and degrees, there is all kind of people with many disabilities or handicaps who overcome them by shear will and hardwork and  excel in waht ever and make a decent living. Like they said in the post above, real state agents, salesmand, plumers, eletricians, etc

Do not buy the excuses



This could hasve said in a more polite or senstive way but in other threads in this forum GID has been repetedly used as an excuse for all kind of actitivities of dubious morality and/or legality.

There are young people in this forum who need to be mentor to be told that they can be all they can be, to show them that if others have done it, so they also could.

Kate D



Kate D

Quote from: tekla on August 07, 2011, 08:39:57 PM
we are fightiing the unfinished cultural war of the 60's.

Who's we? I don't think I said anything positive about those people at all.  I called them poseurs, lying through their teeth with every breath, fakes,  and greedy money grabbing morons.  And I said that about both sides.  Just because one side is wrong, does not automatically make the other side right.

The only people who are still carrying that torch for the battles of the sixties are the people who lost.

Look at congress, liberal against conservatives, abortion versus anti abortion, pro gay against anti-gay, etc. Most of this started in the 60's

All of that has nothing to do with the original post.

Quote from: Original PostChris is a straight white man in his early 20s living in Maryland. Chris is also transgender. In October 2007, he left his job at a local amusement park because he could no longer put up with the severe homophobic harassment and transphobic dress codes he was forced to endure.

From the beginning, the pay was poor and Chris hated the job, but he stayed because he needed the work. His wife was also able to find a job there so that they could carpool together and save on gas. He put in long hours to make up for the low hourly wage. He even put up with being forced to wear the female uniform, even though this caused him great anxiety as a trans man.

Quote from: kate durcal on August 07, 2011, 08:23:41 PM
Kyril,

I fail to see just what is so unfair about what Ann posted. Like i said before, I was in the streets at 13 years of age. I mange through hard work and charm to earn 2 doctor, 1 maters, and i m working in a second master. I work in the farm fields, mechanic shops, gymnasiums, school halls, and yes, now I have a wonderful job and make a decent earning. I made many sacrifices when young; instead of buying a motorbike, rode a bike, instead of partying, I read books, etc, etc. And I am not the only one. I plan my life, so what is so wrong to preach planing? And if you are in your late 40's and still doing the ->-bleeped-<- Job you did 20 years ago, whose fault it is? And when you come to me with the lame excuse, I am sorry man, I do not buy it.

I am not being bigot or mean, I am demanding accountability.

Kate D

Did your mother kick you out of the home at 13 yrs of age?  :o

OT:

I don't think you understand or have experienced discrimination in the workplace/school.  It is a great idea to encourage young people to aim for the top but it has little to do with reality if one is different and doubly so if they've experienced bullying and abuse first hand.

Society does not take too kindly to differences which many consider to be one's own doing and this is why many who have experienced it or care for others less fortunate, fight for anti-discrimination laws. 

Some will have an easy time, while many will not, a little bit of compassion and empathy goes a long way.  I cannot tolerate a bully anymore than you can tolerate 'whiners'.  In this we have common ground.

Kia Ora,

::) First I would just like to apologise to Kate, if she found my "joke" about her immaturity offensive...Just for the record it "was" a joke Kate... :icon_bunch: no hard feelings...  ::) I've been subjected to much worse... >:-)

Back to thread topic...

::) For those trans-people who are actually "out" working[especially those who are trans identifiable] they experience what it's like on a daily bases...Those who aren't quite out yet can only speculate on what it's like and how they are going to be accepted by society...With a good education or no good education only time will tell...

Metta Zenda :)

the pay was poor and Chris hated the job
Odd how often those two things go together like peanut butter and jelly.  ->-bleeped-<-ty job, ->-bleeped-<-ty money, and because everyone around you is also pretty much doing the same ->-bleeped-<-ty job for the same ->-bleeped-<-ty money the bitterness and hostility just mushrooms.  Taking the best places/situations/jobs I've had, and comparing them against the worst places/situations/jobs I've had I'll tell you that I'd work for half the amount of money in a happy, productive environment.  However, it goes without saying that the the best places/situations/jobs I've had were also the highest paying.

And 'education' is a very sweeping term.  Mostly it's been used here to refer to college and other degree programs, but there are other forms of education and knowledge.  You can have all the college degrees and people with superior social skills will beat you out every time.  And it's not just going to do itself either.  Hustle baby, hustle.  The person who is up at 6 and doing emails and phone calls by 6:10 is going to beat out the people not doing that EVERY SINGLE TIME.  Most excuses, reasons, and rationales are just long-winded ways of saying "I'm lazy as ->-bleeped-<-."



I am demanding accountability.
Me too.  So answer this...

I mange through hard work and charm to earn 2 doctor, 1 maters, and i m working in a second master.
Really?  Because I'm pretty close to calling shenanigans on that.  And I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that no one with that kind of education would misspell 'manage', and also misspell one of the advanced degrees you've received, you missed the tense on 'manage', 'doctor' should be plural, 'i m' need both a capitol letter and an apostrophe, second use of 'master' (which though some cosmic accident you seem to have stumbled into spelling correctly) should also be a plural.  And, and, and, you don't work 'in' a masters degree, you work 'in' a master program.  You work 'on' a degree.  I'll bet there are even more, but my brain pretty much refused to really try to read that sentence anymore.

When I taught college, at a big science and engineering school, you'd get an 'F" on your paper after 5 basic grammar mistakes.  I refused to read past that.  Really, if you didn't care enough to write it correctly and proofread it, why should I be bothered?  When I went to college as an undergraduate same deal, irregardless of what subject you were writing in, or about.  You had 7 (SEVEN) in one sentence.  My students at the prison where I taught a class or two didn't do that badly.  And don't try with any of that 'I'm not good at typing" jive.  Anyone with 2 Ph.D.s and a masters degree is going to be one hell of a typist after they are done writing those dissertations and the thesis.

People with doctorates (which is what the degree is really called, and anyone who has one knows that), are pretty much incapable of those kind of mistakes, because they don't make it to that level.  Period.  They are not allowed to become Doctors of Philosophy if they can't write.  And people capable of doing that level of work, and doing it right, don't allow themselves to ever vary from that standard either.

Oh yeah, as anyone who has gone through the slice of hell known as a PhD program knows that 'charm' has less than zero value in getting anything accomplished in their program.  You save the charm for the drunk chicks at the campus bars on Friday night.  Or try to 'charm' someone, like a third grader, to show you how to use a spell check/grammar check program on the computer.

I want to become an honorary Doctor, like Samuel Johnson did. I won't be putting money in a university pot to achieve that one.

Plus, I'll get to do a big speech on graduation day to all the undergrads passing through, and that sounds like a bit of a giggle.

Tekla, not that I fundamentally disagree with your post (though I suspect you're about to get warned for it) but you would be amazed at the number of English mistakes a science doctoral candidate can make. I've actually been making a fair bit of money on the side by quietly copy-editing physics grad students' thesis drafts. Most of my clients, of course, are Chinese and Japanese students who have only been in the country for two or three years. But that's not really because they write worse than the longtime US residents; it's because they tend to be more ashamed of showing their advisors any work they can't be proud of. The native English speakers just turn in their verbal diarrhea.

Sorry Charlie, but I went to and taught at one of the top S&T universities in the world.  That kind of writing would not get you a Ph.D.  It would get to to a community college.  Really, don't you think that anyone with not one, but TWO of those degrees would, at the very least, know what's it's called?

Quote from: Hermione01 on August 07, 2011, 10:36:12 PM
I don't think you understand or have experienced discrimination in the workplace/school.  It is a great idea to encourage young people to aim for the top but it has little to do with reality if one is different and doubly so if they've experienced bullying and abuse first hand.

Society does not take too kindly to differences which many consider to be one's own doing and this is why many who have experienced it or care for others less fortunate, fight for anti-discrimination laws. 

Some will have an easy time, while many will not, a little bit of compassion and empathy goes a long way.  I cannot tolerate a bully anymore than you can tolerate 'whiners'.  In this we have common ground.

I just finished writing a paper on the Americans with Disabilites Act.  I mention this because several unintended consequences came about as a result of the act (and fair warning we're still not covered by it).  First people must self identify as "disabled" under the language of the ADA, which in and of itself sets up an adversarial relationship with their employer, not to mention that most people that qualify as "disabled" don't want to be labled by their disability (and neither do we).  Second, it has created a "right to work" mentality, often amoung the fringe disabled.  Just becuase you are unable to work in one field without accomodation does not equate without being able to work at all and that's what the ADA was intended to protect, not the "right" you think you have to a given job.

As for the education debate, the more (education) you have the more options you have.  There are plenty of people that waited to transition until they got a better job, better education, better living situation, etc and many of those people are a part of this group.  Yes it sucks, but until the situation improves, that's the way it is.

Again, I'll be happy to share my references page if anyone wants to fact check.

In defense of Kate, I believe English is not her first (or maybe even primary) language.

Quote from: kate durcal on August 07, 2011, 08:23:41 PM
Kyril,

I fail to see just what is so unfair about what Ann posted. Like i said before, I was in the streets at 13 years of age. I mange through hard work and charm to earn 2 doctor, 1 maters, and i m working in a second master. I work in the farm fields, mechanic shops, gymnasiums, school halls, and yes, now I have a wonderful job and make a decent earning. I made many sacrifices when young; instead of buying a motorbike, rode a bike, instead of partying, I read books, etc, etc. And I am not the only one. I plan my life, so what is so wrong to preach planing? And if you are in your late 40's and still doing the ->-bleeped-<- Job you did 20 years ago, whose fault it is? And when you come to me with the lame excuse, I am sorry man, I do not buy it.

I am not being bigot or mean, I am demanding accountability.

Kate D

Quote from: tekla on August 08, 2011, 03:20:59 AM
the pay was poor and Chris hated the job
Odd how often those two things go together like peanut butter and jelly.  ->-bleeped-<-ty job, ->-bleeped-<-ty money, and because everyone around you is also pretty much doing the same ->-bleeped-<-ty job for the same ->-bleeped-<-ty money the bitterness and hostility just mushrooms.  Taking the best places/situations/jobs I've had, and comparing them against the worst places/situations/jobs I've had I'll tell you that I'd work for half the amount of money in a happy, productive environment.  However, it goes without saying that the the best places/situations/jobs I've had were also the highest paying.

And 'education' is a very sweeping term.  Mostly it's been used here to refer to college and other degree programs, but there are other forms of education and knowledge.  You can have all the college degrees and people with superior social skills will beat you out every time.  And it's not just going to do itself either.  Hustle baby, hustle.  The person who is up at 6 and doing emails and phone calls by 6:10 is going to beat out the people not doing that EVERY SINGLE TIME.  Most excuses, reasons, and rationales are just long-winded ways of saying "I'm lazy as <not allowed>."



I am demanding accountability.
Me too.  So answer this...

I mange through hard work and charm to earn 2 doctor, 1 maters, and i m working in a second master.
Really?  Because I'm pretty close to calling shenanigans on that.  And I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that no one with that kind of education would misspell 'manage', and also misspell one of the advanced degrees you've received, you missed the tense on 'manage', 'doctor' should be plural, 'i m' need both a capitol letter and an apostrophe, second use of 'master' (which though some cosmic accident you seem to have stumbled into spelling correctly) should also be a plural.  And, and, and, you don't work 'in' a masters degree, you work 'in' a master program.  You work 'on' a degree.  I'll bet there are even more, but my brain pretty much refused to really try to read that sentence anymore.

When I taught college, at a big science and engineering school, you'd get an 'F" on your paper after 5 basic grammar mistakes.  I refused to read past that.  Really, if you didn't care enough to write it correctly and proofread it, why should I be bothered?  When I went to college as an undergraduate same deal, irregardless of what subject you were writing in, or about.  You had 7 (SEVEN) in one sentence.  My students at the prison where I taught a class or two didn't do that badly.  And don't try with any of that 'I'm not good at typing" jive.  Anyone with 2 Ph.D.s and a masters degree is going to be one hell of a typist after they are done writing those dissertations and the thesis.

People with doctorates (which is what the degree is really called, and anyone who has one knows that), are pretty much incapable of those kind of mistakes, because they don't make it to that level.  Period.  They are not allowed to become Doctors of Philosophy if they can't write.  And people capable of doing that level of work, and doing it right, don't allow themselves to ever vary from that standard either.

Oh yeah, as anyone who has gone through the slice of hell known as a PhD program knows that 'charm' has less than zero value in getting anything accomplished in their program.  You save the charm for the drunk chicks at the campus bars on Friday night.  Or try to 'charm' someone, like a third grader, to show you how to use a spell check/grammar check program on the computer.

I forgot to run the spell check, that is all. I do not know exactly why but in every language I speak, writing and learning grammar, is next to impposible.

Ok, so I blamed it into GID, and I am also a fraud because of my GID, and I am not a socialist and pity-party goer because my GID, wah!

Much as I simply adore this sort of Strunk-and-White slugfest, I suspect that this thread has devolved beyond the point of no return. I'm sick of the carping and criticism and nastiness, so I'm locking it. Another mod may come along to unlock it soon, but I wouldn't count on it.