Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I absolutely mean no offense by this post, for starters.

I was at an LGBT club last night and was talking to two people who were presenting as what I would say "definitely" female, but I could still read them as biologically male. I avoided using pronouns with them because I didn't know if they identified as men and enjoyed wearing women's clothes or if they identified as women and their body betrayed them. I thought it would be rude to ask for obvious reasons, as we had just met.

My question is, is there a way to "tell" if a person is a crossdresser rather than a woman? I would venture to say that, in my experience, trans women dress and act more conservatively than crossdressers, but I'm looking for your advice/opinions. Additionally, do you think it would be offensive to a crossdresser to refer to them with female pronouns? I'm not very well versed in cd and don't know if they like to still be referred to as men while in female mode, so forgive me if I sound ignorant. I just don't want to upset anyone and try to be as respectful of identity as possible.

I don't think there's any harm in politely asking them.

Quote from: regan on August 18, 2011, 01:20:26 PM
I don't think there's any harm in politely asking them.

I thought about that, but in the earlier stages of my transition it was mortifying to be asked "are you a girl or a boy" so I just didn't want to open a can of worms.

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 18, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
I thought about that, but in the earlier stages of my transition it was mortifying to be asked "are you a girl or a boy" so I just didn't want to open a can of worms.

How would you have wanted it handled?  I guess let that be your guide. 

I would think a crossdresser would take female pronouns as a compliment. Mmm, I don't want to generalize lol but when I think about crossdressers, I would think they'd be more likely to have heavier make-up and a flashier outfit.

The running joke at one function I went to about 25 years ago that had some of each in attendance was that the transsexuals were the ones in comfortable shoes and clothing...sure it may be a stereotype, but it was certainly accurate that evening. 

And even now, if I see someone come into a gay/lesbian bar in heels (much less skirt or dress), it is usually a safe bet they were neither natal nor were they transsexual...faded jeans, boots and a basic top (or some other comfortable clothing) with some signals that beg the question, pretty safe bet that they were transsexual ;)

yeah, what i said about the transwomen i've met being "more conservative" than the crossdressers was a bit of an understatement. it ventures on being rude, but many of the crossdressers i've seen bring one word to mind: stripper. but it's not as if some women don't dress up like strippers and go to clubs all the time..

While crossdressers may not identify as female they can have a female persona they go out as and would probably like female pronouns.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 18, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
And even now, if I see someone come into a gay/lesbian bar in heels (much less skirt or dress), it is usually a safe bet they were neither natal nor were they transsexual...faded jeans, boots and a basic top (or some other comfortable clothing) with some signals that beg the question, pretty safe bet that they were transsexual ;)

What about femme or lipstick lesbians?

When I identified as a crossdresser, my makeup was indeed heavier. But, that was before the laser and I needed heavier layers to cover the beard shadow. Otherwise, my presentation then was pretty much as my en femme presentation now: understated but feminine, "in comfortable shoes and clothing."

In any case, I preferred female pronouns whether as a man crossdressed as a woman or as a transwoman en femme.

These days, I'm both a transwoman and a crossdresser. But, it's my male (bio) presentation that I consider to be crossdressed. My therapist calls it male-drag.  :D

To answer your question, I think the only way to tell would be to try to skillfully ask about transition. That's happened to me a couple of times now. The questions were asked in a curious and respectful manner and I answered them respectfully.

Quote from: Jameve on August 18, 2011, 01:45:23 PM
While crossdressers may not identify as female they can have a female persona they go out as and would probably like female pronouns.

My female persona's name was Donna Alvolte, which basically translates to "lady at times."  ;D

When I go out en femme now, I use the name Connie, which will be my name when I can legally change it.

is it the general consensus though that it probably wouldn't be offensive to use female pronouns for someone who is obviously presenting in a female mode, even if that's not how they identify? unless they ask you otherwise of course.

I would think asking "What pronoun do you prefer?" is the most sensitive way to ask.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 18, 2011, 01:48:25 PM
What about femme or lipstick lesbians?

even in the bar, a lot of them are still jeans or slacks and flats...you just don't see skirts and dresses on the women in most of the bars I frequent, and this held true no matter where in the State I went...

Since a transwoman is a woman, asking her what pronouns she prefers or if she's a woman would be as offensive as asking any other woman.

My rule of thumb is that you're never going to offend a transgendered person by referring to them as the gender that they present as.  I think this holds true wether you identify as transsexual, ->-bleeped-<- or indeed FTM or MTF.

It just gets tricky when people present as androgynous, in which case politely asking would be the way go in my opinion.

Siobhan.

^--- this. If you need to ask, ask politely, is what I meant. If someone presents unambiguously as male/female, treat them that way.

Quote from: Renate on August 18, 2011, 02:03:01 PM
Since a transwoman is a woman, asking her what pronouns she prefers or if she's a woman would be as offensive as asking any other woman.

that's why i don't want to ask

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 18, 2011, 01:59:30 PM
even in the bar, a lot of them are still jeans or slacks and flats...you just don't see skirts and dresses on the women in most of the bars I frequent, and this held true no matter where in the State I went...

Could it just be the bars you go to...almost that the culture is to look down on women who want to look feminine so people dress to fit in rather than how they want. Because my local club there are plenty of girls in dresses...I'm sure they're not all crossdressers.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 18, 2011, 02:17:09 PM
Could it just be the bars you go to...almost that the culture is to look down on women who want to look feminine so people dress to fit in rather than how they want. Because my local club there are plenty of girls in dresses...I'm sure they're not all crossdressers.

I have no doubt that lesbian bars in some other part of the world could be different from what I experience in Texas...

Quote from: SiobhanB on August 18, 2011, 02:05:15 PM
My rule of thumb is that you're never going to offend a transgendered person by referring to them as the gender that they present as.  I think this holds true wether you identify as transsexual, ->-bleeped-<- or indeed FTM or MTF.

It just gets tricky when people present as androgynous, in which case politely asking would be the way go in my opinion.

Siobhan.

Actually, it isn't that straightforward. Most butch women (dressed in male clothes) would be pretty offended to be referred to as "he," and in a mixed LGBT event it's likely there would be some. It is safer going the other direction, but not always. There is a reason people are extremely embarrassed when they misgender someone. It is a HUGE faux pas.

Usually for people I'm not sure about, I just drop gendered language entirely. I don't use much gendered language in general anyway.

If you're in a close enough inter-personal contact that you are talking with anyone, you should have learned or should ask their name. Lacking formal introduction, use of the presenting gender pronoun/title I think is fine, though a club setting is a bit informal for Mr/Ms/Miss/etc. If they have an ambiguous presentation they should not have reason to take offense. I find I have to correct people from time to time, particularly over drive-thru speakers (darn male voice). I take no offense at out-of-sight guesses, or at one-time face-to-face ones. Continued misuse is another matter.

Susan Kay

Around here, the majority of the women I see out for the evening are in dresses.

From the novel I'm currently reading (published 2009):
"In jeans and an L.L.Bean shirt, she realized her mistake as soon as she walked in. This was a Girls' Night Out, and these Girls were definitely making the most of it. ...skin-tight aqua dress, high heels... ...green and white print dress with flat jeweled sandals... ...an assortment of cute dresses and tight jeans, with lots of makeup and jewelry."

lesbian bars in some other part of the world could be different from what I experience in Texas

Yeee Hah!  I'll just bet that's true.  Works for just about every other bar I've been to in Texas (granted mostly Austin, still).  There are just places that have their very own unique bar deal(s) going on and Texas is sure a bunch of them.  So I'm sure that the lesbian hang outs and bars in San Francisco and Berkeley are not exactly like Houston.  However, there is a huge basic crossover in iconography that unites stuff too, so that biker bars in Texas still are more like biker bars in other places - all local color aside.  So I'll bet there are five or so 'lesbian bar icons' that are repeated, with theme and variation, all over the world too.

It is important to remember that so-called ->-bleeped-<-s, maybe  wearing too heavy make-up and too flashy clothes(to paraphrase a poster above)because (1) they lack experience with make-up (2) They are still very much in the extremely heady stages of being open about themselves.    When I went full-time within the family I certainly overdid the clothes and the make-up and the girlishness.     I did rather think that being a girl was all full make-up and dressing stylishly and fashionably everyday. *   I soon got past this stage.    The only female clothing items I wear each and every day now are bras and panties, and sometimes I don't wear any make-up at all.     

* Don't get me wrong, I like to look pretty and dressed and groomed like the next woman.  I just don't feel the need to do this all day, everyday.

This idea that "real women" dress in only a certain way is a little silly.

I dress in ways that appeal to me. And what appeals to me now is not what used to appeal to me when I was younger.

But, I'd agree that the 'idea that "real women" dress in only a certain way is a little silly.'

Needless to say, the really good (lucky/gifted/heavily invested)  transwomen & crossdressers you don't even notice at all do you?

Well I have seen every combination.

Most people in feminine presentation did not have a problem with female pronouns.

Some people that do not pass as a female have their feelings hurt by "Sir" or "Mr." vice versa for FTM.

Quote from: tekla on August 18, 2011, 05:11:47 PM
Needless to say, the really good (lucky/gifted/heavily invested)  transwomen & crossdressers you don't even notice at all do you?

it certainly makes it alot easier to function in society!

Quote from: Renate on August 18, 2011, 02:03:01 PM
Since a transwoman is a woman, asking her what pronouns she prefers or if she's a woman would be as offensive as asking any other woman.

This is so true.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 18, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
The running joke at one function I went to about 25 years ago that had some of each in attendance was that the transsexuals were the ones in comfortable shoes and clothing...sure it may be a stereotype, but it was certainly accurate that evening. 

And even now, if I see someone come into a gay/lesbian bar in heels (much less skirt or dress), it is usually a safe bet they were neither natal nor were they transsexual...faded jeans, boots and a basic top (or some other comfortable clothing) with some signals that beg the question, pretty safe bet that they were transsexual ;)

I have noticed this as well. Crossdressers (from where I am living) usually wear really short skirt, high gloss pantyhose, stilettos, and an obvious wig (something that costs about 20 bucks) with very heavy makeup.

I wear skirts a lot and sometimes short skirts but its just the way I present myself that usually makes the difference. I don't over do the make up.

Also, if you look at the mannerisms of crossdressers vs trans girls, the crossdressers have a mechanical or "overdoing" feminine body gestures. Trans girls are usually more natural (unless they are very new at it)

Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 18, 2011, 01:48:25 PM
What about femme or lipstick lesbians?

exactly. I am heterosexual but really heteroflexible so i do go to a lesbian bar from time to time. They refer to me as lipstick les and in my prior post above there is a major difference between a lipstick lesbian (or bisexual) and a cd walking into a les bar

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 18, 2011, 01:59:30 PM
even in the bar, a lot of them are still jeans or slacks and flats...you just don't see skirts and dresses on the women in most of the bars I frequent, and this held true no matter where in the State I went...

i go to les bars in skirts all the time lol.

Been extremely successful when the bar closes too!  Butch girls here LOVES lipstick girls in skirts. So i think this is different for everyone

I would refer to them by how they're presenting. If they're presenting as female, then I'd use female pronouns until corrected.

You could trick that person into saying a sentence with a gender-influenced word. Harder than in French, but it has to be possible in English, too. A crossdresser, unless trying to "trick" people into thinking he is female, would normally not "she" himself, unless he has a character to play.

Other statistical hints (all of which are PROBABLY (55%? XD) individually true but could very well not be):

-Amount/flashiness of make-up is generally higher in crossdressers.
-Crossdressers should be less skilled in "girl stuff".
-Crossdressers wear more "too much" clothes like dresses and big earrings.
-Crossdressers are more likely to be using a wig, and more likely to use a cheap one.
-Crossdressers should normally show less shyness.
-No crossdresser should have had a tracheal shave.
-Crossdressers don't usually train their voice much.
-Since crossdressers' pleasure lies in clothes, they will most probably be very focused on this.
-Crossdressers will usually worry less or even not at all about passing.

May not help at all. Though I agree with Samantharz: The most important thing is to use female pronouns on a female-presenting per.son all the time, unless directed otherwise. Anyone purposedly dressing as female would naturally expect/hope to be treated as female

Now there is an interesting thing here... ever seen or heard of a AFAB cross-dresser?!
In the terms used for MtF, >90% of AFAB would be cross-dressing, yes?

Though it might bring about an issue with FtMs, as most every one and there uncle's first guess would be --- you being lesbian, butch, not lipstick though, obviously.

Now how do YOU deal with that, being FtM? Ignore it, correct them?

In fact dressing 'down' (jeans, tackies, t-shirt, pony tail, no makeup) may just make me be considered just that... butch-lesbian. I wouldn't give two straws as I'm BI, so long no one calls me a guy or dude, eh! More complications?

Best be, I guess, to have an introduction, even by oneself, stating your name.
It should side step the issue, won't it?

Axelle

It would be best to ask politely, since some crossdressers may look more "passable" than transsexual woman in early stage of transition. It is also true, that crossdressers tend to wear heavy makeup, flashy clothes, and have really flamboyant style

There's no polite way to ask someone if they're a crossdresser or transsexual.

If I dress female it is very conservative and professional.  I do not like way wigs feel on my head so that I do not wear them.  I can not walk in high heels so that I do not wear them.  I only like a little bit of make up and hate clown look.  I do like perfume (sorry).  I like tasteful jewelry.  Voice sounds better as a male than a female so that I keep my male voice(sorry again).  I wear female glasses.  I have a soft , hairless male face.  My body looks very female without a behind.  I do not pass.  I do not expect to be called Mame but I hate Sir( I cringe with, " Sir, Sir paper or plastic?").  You would pick me out in 100 people or maybe 500 people just by this description.  O.K. here's my story:

Went to Southern Comfort Conference and was exiting elevator and two six foot six girls in shinny 6 inch high heels, big hair, heavy makeup, 600 pound breasts(not really but very big),  etc. were behind me.  When elevator door opened I held door for them because I do that for anyone behind me.  Both ladies held their noses high in air and said "UGG" with obvious distaste and head turned away from me.  I am not sure if I was not supposed to hold door for them or I did not pass their standards of female presentation.  A thank you would have been nice.  I thought them rude.  They were pretty enough.

AH, Southern Comfort Conference, where passive aggressive trans girls compare their looks against others, where the ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s hover outside for 3 straight days like dogs waiting for the next chicken bone, and trans judging other trans by their looks and not their character.

You can tell I did not have a good experience there LOL!

Some girls were wonderful and I did love the seminars, but Im sorry. It felt like a dragqueen convention to me by many of the things I witnessed.

After that experience, and a couple MTF support groups that reminded me of old church ladies gossiping, I kinda walked away from all of that. 

I am sorry for your experiences :(

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 11:11:10 AM
AH, Southern Comfort Conference, where passive aggressive trans girls compare their looks against others, where the ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s hover outside for 3 straight days like dogs waiting for the next chicken bone, and trans judging other trans by their looks and not their character.

My therapist has been trying to get me to go...  :)

Actually your description of it is exactly what I thought/feared it would be, I'm glad I won't be wasting my time/money.

Simple,  trans women see themselves as a female and want to live in that gender full time.  I put ->-bleeped-<-s into two categories, those that do it for sexual thrills and those that do it as an expression of their gay identity, both these categories do not see aping femininity as a full time situation.  However, it is silly to put people in boxes and it is entirely possible that over time a desire to transition occurs as initial crossdressing is masking a deeper feeling. 

Scratch all of the above, only a psychiatrist can tell!

I need an answer from a crossdresser. I mean, someone who solidly identifies as a CD: a person that considers themselves one gender that will tell you that they like to wear the clothes of the other gender and has not really considered transition an option.

I don't think there really is a way to tell. What's the old (sometimes painfully accurate) saying? "The difference between a CD and a TS is about two years?" Do I agree with it? No, not in total, but it does sometimes hold true. The way I do it: If they're presenting like a girl, I call them a girl until I'm told otherwise. I don't make it known that I assume someone is a CD or TS or TG or GQ or A. This has worked well for me around the gender therapist's office.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 11:11:10 AM
AH, Southern Comfort Conference, where passive aggressive trans girls compare their looks against others, where the ->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s hover outside for 3 straight days like dogs waiting for the next chicken bone, and trans judging other trans by their looks and not their character.
You can tell I did not have a good experience there LOL!
Some girls were wonderful and I did love the seminars, but Im sorry. It felt like a dragqueen convention to me by many of the things I witnessed.
After that experience, and a couple MTF support groups that reminded me of old church ladies gossiping, I kinda walked away from all of that. 
I am sorry for your experiences :(

Wow too true but an absolutely amazing experience for me. First time I attended I literally cried when it was over.  Loved seminars and many people were super nice and helpful to me.  I went to learn and make a couple of friends.  I did.

Transgender journey has been difficult.  I made some really good friends and found I was not alone in world.  If you can find laughter in Bo Peek Outfits then go.

One more story to muddle topic.  I was in one seminar with feminine dance moves.   I felt attracted  to this guy.  After seminar he came up to me and said, "I find you attractive."  I returned complement.   It was a very odd experience for me.  Now I met several FTM's that I thought were genetic men since they totally passed.  Wouldn't that be funny if he was a FTM since this was SCC.   My perceptions of transgender people were totally incorrect.  Transgender people are just like everyone else with an added dimension of gender challenges.  You do not know.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on August 19, 2011, 06:27:18 AM
There's no polite way to ask someone if they're a crossdresser or transsexual.

The only possible exception I can think of was when I went to Carla's in San Jose for a makeup lesson in 2009. Then, I still identified as a crossdresser, not transsexual. I arrived in full male mode and as the lesson began Carla asked just that: if I was a crossdresser or a transsexual. I think it was because at that time I didn't have any plans for hormones or laser, so it affected what she was going to teach me in order to feminize my face with makeup.

Well Carla is nothing if not polite, so perhaps the lesson is that polite people know how to ask polite questions.

here is what I think......crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s seem to always over do it with their mannerisms and speech. 
It is also my opinion that CD and TV's are the root cause of issues when it comes to rest room usage.  Too many times the general public has alot of confusion distinguishing between CD, TV and those who are transgender and will often lump us all together when we shouldnt be.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 02:25:12 PM
Too many times the general public has alot of confusion distinguishing between CD, TV and those who are transgender and will often lump us all together when we shouldnt be.

given that those in favor of the umbrella term insisted on including the CD/TV/DQ population in the definition of 'transgender,' is there any really any surprise the general public does not draw a distinction between them and those that are transsexual?

I agree with your point but I am not in favor of including those groups under the umbrella term..........and I do have the opinion that CD, DQ, TV should not be using the female restoom for the simple fact there are no identity issues with them.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 02:25:12 PM
here is what I think......crossdressers and ->-bleeped-<-s seem to always over do it with their mannerisms and speech. 
It is also my opinion that CD and TV's are the root cause of issues when it comes to rest room usage.  Too many times the general public has alot of confusion distinguishing between CD, TV and those who are transgender and will often lump us all together when we shouldnt be.

To be fair, passing MtFs (and FtMs) shouldn't even be visible in the bathroom.  Truth is there's a greater perception of a bathroom issue then there really is.  As we've talked about in this thread, there really is no polite way to ask someone what gender they are - applies to the bathroom issue too.  Security has been called on at least one occasion becuase someone observed feet pointed towards, rather then away from, the toilet - only to find out it was indeed a cis-woman, she was emptying her urostomy bag.

Sadly, if you don't pass the general perception is that you're a CD/TV.

Quote from: Pippa on August 19, 2011, 11:33:14 AM
Simple,  trans women see themselves as a female and want to live in that gender full time.  I put ->-bleeped-<-s into two categories, those that do it for sexual thrills and those that do it as an expression of their gay identity, both these categories do not see aping femininity as a full time situation.  However, it is silly to put people in boxes and it is entirely possible that over time a desire to transition occurs as initial crossdressing is masking a deeper feeling. 

Scratch all of the above, only a psychiatrist can tell!

being transgender does not really equate to having a gay identity........I certainly do not identify as being gay

i also agree with a previous comment that, from what I've seen, CD and TV, will also drastically overdo it with the way they dress........mini skirts, stripper boots, and way too much makeup.
I've always believed that it is not necessary to ask someone.......address them in the gender role they are presenting as

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 02:31:37 PM
I do have the opinion that CD, DQ, TV should not be using the female restoom for the simple fact there are no identity issues with them.

I do agree with you to a certain extent; but in practical application there are a number of problems.  Should they use the men's restroom, would they (and presumably the men) feel comfortable (or safe) in the men's room?

I think the solution is more unisex bathrooms.  Actually, I'd think there wouldn't be a problem if CD/TV's just planned ahead and either "took care of it" before they ventured out, limited their more extended trips to places with unisex bathrooms or of course transgender friendly bathrooms.

Quote from: regan on August 19, 2011, 02:40:32 PM
I do agree with you to a certain extent; but in practical application there are a number of problems.  Should they use the men's restroom, would they (and presumably the men) feel comfortable (or safe) in the men's room?

I think the solution is more unisex bathrooms.  Actually, I'd think there wouldn't be a problem if CD/TV's just planned ahead and either "took care of it" before they ventured out, limited their more extended trips to places with unisex bathrooms or of course transgender friendly bathrooms.

I think that's asking a bit much. if someone told you that because you dress a certain way some days, you had to always pee before you left the house or plan your trips to places only where there was a unisex restroom, it would be massively inconvenient, offensive, and discriminatory. I am not saying that male crossdressers and transwomen are the same, but we are all human beings and deserve at the very least to be able to take care of basic bodily functions without being harassed.

I am not saying that you outright meant to be offensive with that comment, but your exact words are what the people who are insensitive to queer issues say about US. that we should just plan around not using public restrooms because our clothes are not traditional for where we "should be".

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 19, 2011, 02:47:29 PM
I think that's asking a bit much. if someone told you that because you dress a certain way some days, you had to always pee before you left the house or plan your trips to places only where there was a unisex restroom, it would be massively inconvenient, offensive, and discriminatory. I am not saying that male crossdressers and transwomen are the same, but we are all human beings and deserve at the very least to be able to take care of basic bodily functions without being harassed.

I'm sorry if my post suggested that crossdressers not be allowed in the bathroom of their presentation.  I was trying to get more at personal responsibilty, and a little planning ahead might go a long way.  You can't always predict when you gotta "go", but I'm sure they don't want "bathroom issues" any more then anyone else.  If they do, then that's an entirely different thread.

If it were me, I'd do what I could to avoid having to use the bathroom in public - but I'm already "pee shy" as it is.

Quote from: regan on August 19, 2011, 02:34:32 PM
To be fair, passing MtFs (and FtMs) shouldn't even be visible in the bathroom.  Truth is there's a greater perception of a bathroom issue then there really is.  As we've talked about in this thread, there really is no polite way to ask someone what gender they are - applies to the bathroom issue too.  Security has been called on at least one occasion becuase someone observed feet pointed towards, rather then away from, the toilet - only to find out it was indeed a cis-woman, she was emptying her urostomy bag.

Sadly, if you don't pass the general perception is that you're a CD/TV.

I agree with you on your reflection.

Also I would say that it isn't the CDs who ruin it for us when it comes to the bathroom issues. To me, that's like saying sex addicts ruin it for trans to use the bathrooms.

In my opinion, it is not the CDs that ruin it for trans people with the bathroom issue but it is the lawmakers and society who does not understand us or does not want to understand us.

The vast majority of transgender people who got harassed by using a bathroom were usually trans people who could not pass very well. I have very rarely ever heard of an isntance where a man put on some pantyhose and a skirt and went to the mall to use the bathroom. Many CDs very rarely leave their house crossdressed and if they do its a brisk walk outside or to run in and buy something or to go to a cd friendly bar.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 02:31:37 PM
I agree with your point but I am not in favor of including those groups under the umbrella term..........and I do have the opinion that CD, DQ, TV should not be using the female restroom for the simple fact there are no identity issues with them.

I asked a pretty transitioning TS which restroom she used.  She told me she used male restroom a month ago because she was with her wife.  A couple of men came into public restroom saw her and then walked back out and thought they entered wrong restroom.  They then looked at restroom signs and decided they were in correct restroom.  They then came back in and were grumbling to each other.  My friend left and told her wife that she was totally uncomfortable doing that any longer.  She now uses female restroom with no issue.

I feel wrong to use female restroom because I do not pass.  I use male restrooms and they grumble.  I asked my wife if she thought women would be offended and she said no there are stalls.

I have talked to cross dressers that transitioned in time I've known them; however they had gender issues when I talked to them.

Wow it's up to person since transgender community is very diverse.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 02:35:27 PM
being transgender does not really equate to having a gay identity........I certainly do not identify as being gay

Pippa did not mean to lump trans women into her slightly off color definition regarding "->-bleeped-<-s."

"trans women see themselves as a female and want to live in that gender full time.  I put ->-bleeped-<-s [...] into two categories, those that do it for sexual thrills and those that do it as an expression of their gay identity, both these categories do not see aping femininity as a full time situation"

Misunderstanding. I thought about reacting the exact same way, then I read the post two more times.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 02:58:54 PM
Also I would say that it isn't the CDs who ruin it for us when it comes to the bathroom issues. To me, that's like saying sex addicts ruin it for trans to use the bathrooms.

In my opinion, it is not the CDs that ruin it for trans people with the bathroom issue but it is the lawmakers and society who does not understand us or does not want to understand us.

I think it's safe to say that it's a combination of the 2 points.  We certainly are very misunderstood.  But when it comes to the point of CD's and TV's, they have no business being in a female rest room and when transitioning, the general public certainly has no way to distinguish if someone is one or the other (TG/TV/CD).  Now remember, TV's are TV because of sexual gratification and excitement and most, if not all, parents would have major issues with them being in a restroom with a young daughter....I know I would.

I agree with Julia Serrano regarding ->-bleeped-<-s.*    Serrano's writes in essence that ->-bleeped-<-s possess what she calls a 'female subconscious sex' but that they are not fully aware of this.  Or they have an inkling but are overwhelmed with the thought of the emotional, social, physical and psychological implications of this.     I think that this is a very human and understandable reaction.    The person who doesn't feel great exhilaration and deep fear regarding transition hasn't thought about it sufficiently.

* I cannot stand the term 'crossdresser' is is so incredibly bland and lower-middle class.

Haha! Well...  I don't think they put a ton of thought into the term, and it is a serious sounding word.
As far as lower middle class bashing, I have retracted my ten foot pole (that's the tax bracket I grew up in).

That's the tax bracket I'm in! I'm not growing up, though.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 04:38:35 PM
Now remember, TV's are TV because of sexual gratification and excitement and most, if not all, parents would have major issues with them being in a restroom with a young daughter....I know I would.

Why?

Actually it sounds like your confusing all TVs with Pedophiles.  I'm not going to claim that they're exclusive, but they're not one in the same - even if a closet case Republican Senator says they are.  Maybe, just maybe, its a chance to teach your daughter about what's appropriate to wear and what's not and how the attention she attracts to herself might not be the attention she wants to attract to herself.

Have children been molested in bathrooms?  There are a few cases, HOWEVER, not a single one involved a TV (or anyother member of the trans identifed community).  IN FACT, every case I'm aware of involved incidents between (cis)men and boys in the male bathrooms.  So your argument isn't an argument, its just paranoia.  If you're really that concerned go in the restroom with your child.

Quote from: regan on August 19, 2011, 08:25:09 PM
Why?

Actually it sounds like your confusing all TVs with Pedophiles.  I'm not going to claim that they're exclusive, but they're not one in the same - even if a closet case Republican Senator says they are.  Maybe, just maybe, its a chance to teach your daughter about what's appropriate to wear and what's not and how the attention she attracts to herself might not be the attention she wants to attract to herself.

Have children been molested in bathrooms?  There are a few cases, HOWEVER, not a single one involved a TV (or anyother member of the trans identifed community).  IN FACT, every case I'm aware of involved incidents between (cis)men and boys in the male bathrooms.  So your argument isn't an argument, its just paranoia.  If you're really that concerned go in the restroom with your child.

that's not true at all, it would appear that you drew your own conclusion.  TV are "labled" as being ->-bleeped-<-s because they dress the way they do due to sexual excitement/gratification.  It's precisely one of the reasons why those who are TG are required to do a 1 year RLE.  I suggest you review the reputation you provided to my comment/opinion and see where it does not break any rules of this site.
The comment I left is my opinion and I certainly stand by it......they do not belong in a female restroom.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 08:36:19 PM
that's not true at all, it would appear that you drew your own conclusion.  TV are "labled" as being ->-bleeped-<-s because they dress the way they do due to sexual excitement/gratification.  It's precisely one of the reasons why those who are TG are required to do a 1 year RLE.  I suggest you review the reputation you provided to my comment/opinion and see where it does not break any rules of this site.
The comment I left is my opinion and I certainly stand by it......they do not belong in a female restroom.

You are entitled to your opinion, however, as others have suggested, once the sexual gratification passes (draw your own conclusions) for the average TV, so does the desire to dress in the clothing - if that's true, I would highly doubt they would be in a women's bathroom in the first place.  If they're there to seek sexual gratification, yeah, then there are already laws to address that sort of thing.  Your opinion is harmful, at best.  Its the same old stereotype that has been dragged out in some form or fashion to marginalize the GLB T community time and time again.

So if we start making rules about non-gender conforming people and their use of the restrooms, do you volunteer to be the first to use the men's room?  When you're busy pointing fingers, remember fingers are pointing at you as well.

It's not so easy, is it?

show me anywhere in my comment where I suggested that TV's are pedophiles.......but you cant.  It isnt any secret that the majority of the parents do not want the opposite sex in the same restroom as their children.

Quote from: regan on August 19, 2011, 08:25:09 PM
Why?

Actually it sounds like your confusing all TVs with Pedophiles.  I'm not going to claim that they're exclusive, but they're not one in the same - even if a closet case Republican Senator says they are.  Maybe, just maybe, its a chance to teach your daughter about what's appropriate to wear and what's not and how the attention she attracts to herself might not be the attention she wants to attract to herself.

Have children been molested in bathrooms?  There are a few cases, HOWEVER, not a single one involved a TV (or anyother member of the trans identifed community).  IN FACT, every case I'm aware of involved incidents between (cis)men and boys in the male bathrooms.  So your argument isn't an argument, its just paranoia.  If you're really that concerned go in the restroom with your child.

again, you're drawing your own conclusions about the molestation (which I never said nor even hinted about). 

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 08:49:11 PM
show me anywhere in my comment where I suggested that TV's are pedophiles.......but you cant.  It isnt any secret that the majority of the parents do not want the opposite sex in the same restroom as their children.

So a mother should never take her young son into the bathroom with her and vice versa, because I see that happen frequently enough...

You still haven't answered the question, seeing as you're setting rules for bathroom use by non(birth)-gender conforming individuals, will you be the first to volunteer to use the men's bathroom?

Quote from: regan on August 19, 2011, 08:54:17 PM
So a mother should never take her young son into the bathroom with her and vice versa, because I see that happen frequently enough...

You still haven't answered the question, seeing as you're setting rules for bathroom use by non(birth)-gender conforming individuals, will you be the first to volunteer to use the men's bathroom?

why would I use the mens bathroom when I have a vagina between my legs and my legal documents indicating F for my sex? No, I would not use a mans bathroom.
No, a mother should not take her young son into the bathroom with her and vice versa.
If a TV or CD identified as being female, then yes, they should use the female bathroom.............but they dont identify as being female which is why they should not use the female bathroom. does that answer your question?

Quote from: regan on August 19, 2011, 08:54:17 PM
So a mother should never take her young son into the bathroom with her and vice versa, because I see that happen frequently enough...

You still haven't answered the question, seeing as you're setting rules for bathroom use by non(birth)-gender conforming individuals, will you be the first to volunteer to use the men's bathroom?

I am curious though, are you ->-bleeped-<- or a cross dresser?

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 09:02:30 PM
I am curious though, are you ->-bleeped-<- or a cross dresser?

Neither...

The point I'm trying to make is that as soon as you start singling out members of the community that are trans-identified or have a transgender past or whatever variation they choose to explain why they deviate from their gender assigned at birth for exclusion whether its from a bathroom, a concert, etc, where do you stop?  While we're busy fighting to protect our rights to use the bathroom of our gender, to the exclusion of people that don't identify as female, there's going to be someone else suggesting we have no more right to use the bathroom then they do.  How would we regulate it anyways, are we going to have to do a genitals check at the door?  Otherwise what happens when you misidentify a cis-woman as a TV?  For that matter where to the pre-ops and non-ops go?

Are you willing to take the risk?

Even if you establish a "no males" rule, what does the mother do with her young son?  Would it be better for her to take him to the men's room?  Where does he wait while she uses the bathroom?

I'd probably use "she/her" unless corrected -- I've crossdressed a little, but I hate being called a girl even "en femme". Really, it's all about personal preference.

Best thing to do: "What pronouns do you prefer?"
You could ask gender identity, but it tends to be a little irrelevant. I've met MTF women who preferred he/him/his and FTM guys who preferred she/her.

As for style choices, well, to each their own. I'm not sure if transwomen and crossdressers can be told apart specifically because of their mannerisms and outfit choices.

Quote from: regan on August 19, 2011, 09:16:15 PM
Neither...

The point I'm trying to make is that as soon as you start singling out members of the community that are trans-identified or have a transgender past or whatever variation they choose to explain why they deviate from their gender assigned at birth for exclusion whether its from a bathroom, a concert, etc, where do you stop?  While we're busy fighting to protect our rights to use the bathroom of our gender, to the exclusion of people that don't identify as female, there's going to be someone else suggesting we have no more right to use the bathroom then they do.  How would we regulate it anyways, are we going to have to do a genitals check at the door?  Otherwise what happens when you misidentify a cis-woman as a TV?  For that matter where to the pre-ops and non-ops go?

Are you willing to take the risk?

Even if you establish a "no males" rule, what does the mother do with her young son?  Would it be better for her to take him to the men's room?  Where does he wait while she uses the bathroom?

but where in my comment did I ever imply that ->-bleeped-<-s were pedophiles?  I'm going to be completely honest with you regan, I resent the fact that you attached that pedophile label to my name or my comment because I never made that implication nor do I think that!!
It's no secret that the public greatly misunderstands us.  when it comes to restroom issues (and it's always first and foremost), the public is becoming understandable when it comes to transgender, because they identify as the opposite sex and for the most part, do not go out in public until they begin their real life experience.
when it comes to ->-bleeped-<-s and crossdressers, they do not identify as being the opposite sex and likewise, are identified by the public as being their birth sex and should use the appropriate restroom.  that is my opinion and I stand behind it.  and when it does come down to gender identity legislation, there will no doubt be exclusions for TV and CD when it comes to the restroom, and rightfully so.  I also feel that a transgender should not use the opposite restroom until they begin living full time.

In my opinion when we start putting down CDs for using the women's bathroom or start accusing them for the transsexual woes, then we begin to stoop to the level of an ignorant society who does the same accusations against us as a transsexual people.

I've seen some trans who like to vilify crossdressers and, for the most part, their accusations or finger pointing are eerily similiar to what uninformed people do to us. To say one would not let their daughter use the same bathroom as a CD is just as an inherently destructive thought pattern that uninformed society shows against us as trans. To say crossdressers are only n it for sex and therefor their using of the female bathroom would imply a similar connotation is also eerily similar to what uninformed society says about the trans people.

There is a joke with some truth behind it regarding CDs and TSs. "What is the difference between a crossdresser and transsexual?" Answer: Three years.

We seem to be quick to point fingers at CDs and blame them for equal rights setbacks or how people view us. If we are not careful we become arrogant and spiteful over any gender varient person who does not fit our mold of what is a real girl or boy and what is not.

I find it ironic that we as a transsexual people cry for equal rights and to be treated humanly, but then some of us will turn around and treat other gender variants with just as much vitriol as those we try so hard to fight against.

In my opinion when we start putting down CDs for using the women's bathroom or start accusing them for the transsexual woes, then we begin to stoop to the level of an ignorant society who does the same accusations against us as a transsexual people.

Even worse, because it proves that 'education' is worthless.

 

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 09:35:15 PM
but where in my comment did I ever imply that ->-bleeped-<-s were pedophiles?  I'm going to be completely honest with you regan, I resent the fact that you attached that pedophile label to my name or my comment because I never made that implication nor do I think that!!

In all fairness, when I read your earlier statement, I thought the same thing. To say you would never let your daughter in the same restroom as a crossdresser because they dress for sexual excitement leaves little room to the imagination to what you meant by that statement.

Quote from: tekla on August 19, 2011, 09:53:59 PM
In my opinion when we start putting down CDs for using the women's bathroom or start accusing them for the transsexual woes, then we begin to stoop to the level of an ignorant society who does the same accusations against us as a transsexual people.

Even worse, because it proves that 'education' is worthless.

Or it shows education can be wrapped in a tattered robe of selfishness. "I want these rights so give them to me, but these people over here....no thank you."

It's sad really.

here is my thought pattern and I'll try to put it as simple as I can:

TG/TV/CD should all be afforded the same protections in anti discrimination legislation as everyone else.  When it comes to the restroom, TV/CD should use the restroom that their sex is because they do not identify as being the opposite sex.  If it was a male CD/TV, yes, if I had a daughter I would have issues with them using the same restroom (as well as any other man).

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 09:54:50 PM
In all fairness, when I read your earlier statement, I thought the same thing. To say you would never let your daughter in the same restroom as a crossdresser because they dress for sexual excitement leaves little room to the imagination to what you meant by that statement.

imagine a young girl in a stall in the bathroom doing #1 or #2 (lol).....the stall next to her is a TV pleasuring himself because he likes the way his pantyhose feel on his legs........same argument could go the other way as well in the mens bathroom or a female in the next stall........again, if they dont identify as the opposite sex, they should use the appropriate restroom for the sex that is listed on their drivers license or ID card. 

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 10:04:10 PM
imagine a young girl in a stall in the bathroom doing #1 or #2 (lol).....the stall next to her is a TV pleasuring himself because he likes the way his pantyhose feel on his legs...

That's the same type of argument conservative lawmakers say about transsexuals. Using overextended stereotypical behavior to fuel fear in those who really do not understand a specific set of people.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 10:10:17 PM
That's the same type of argument conservative lawmakers say about transsexuals. Using overextended stereotypical behavior to fuel fear in those who really do not understand a specific set of people.

which is exactly why those exclusions should be implemented and exactly why we need to educate the public.......so they know, that TG are NOT tv's, and that we identify as being the opposite sex and are not TG simply because dressing as the opposite sex sexually arouses us.  That argument will always be made because with TV, it is a very valid argument and there is always the possibility that it could happen.
That is why I am often hired thru honorariums, to speak on the subject........to help educate and clarify the issue.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 09:54:50 PM
In all fairness, when I read your earlier statement, I thought the same thing. To say you would never let your daughter in the same restroom as a crossdresser because they dress for sexual excitement leaves little room to the imagination to what you meant by that statement.

Here is a very thought provoking question I have:  the comment I provided was, in all fairness, rather vague and open ended (and left to the imagination as I did not elaborate on my thought)..........but I'm wondering why you (and regan), the first thought that erupted, with all the possibilities, was the first thought of "pedophile?"
With that being the first thought that both of you had, would it be fair to say that deep in your subconscience, you (and regan) have some of these same sterotypical behaviors that you talk about so passionately?  With pedophile being the first thoughts, it certainly could be argued, yes?

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 10:31:13 PM
Here is a very thought provoking question I have:  the comment I provided was, in all fairness, rather vague and open ended (and left to the imagination as I did not elaborate on my thought)..........but I'm wondering why you (and regan), the first thought that erupted, with all the possibilities, was the first thought of "pedophile?"
With that being the first thought that both of you had, would it be fair to say that deep in your subconscience, you (and regan) have some of these same sterotypical behaviors that you talk about so passionately?  With pedophile being the first thoughts, it certainly could be argued, yes?

Because you correlated a crossdresser as a sexual deviant in the women's bathroom for a purpose of sexual activity of some kind and then you mentioned your daughter which would surmise that the crossdresser is capable of committing a sexual deviant activity in the presence of a minor; i.e, pedophilia. Even if the person was in the next stall doing it, the state would charge that person with sexual activities in the presence of a minor.

And you backed this comment a few posts later when you commented that a crossdresser would go to a female bathroom to masturbate with their pantyhose; which is eerily similar to what right winged conservatives would declare a transsexual of doing.

Your message certainly did not convey the meaning that you would not have your daughter in the bathroom with a crossdresser because he does not have a "F" on his driver's license.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 10:39:49 PM
Because you correlated a crossdresser as a sexual deviant in the women's bathroom for a purpose of sexual activity of some kind and then you mentioned your daughter which would surmise that the crossdresser is capable of committing a sexual deviant activity in the presence of a minor; i.e, pedophilia. Regardless of even the pedophilia you commented on that a crossdresser would go to a female bathroom to masturbate with their pantyhose; which is eerily similar to what right winged conservatives would declare a transsexual of doing.

Your message certainly did not convey the meaning that you would not have your daughter in the bathroom with a crossdresser because he does not have a "F" on his driver's license.

re read the comment.....not a crossdresser but a ->-bleeped-<-......re read the last sentence of my comment

A ->-bleeped-<- is an older medical term which is now coined as an offensive term for those who crossdress. It's the same thing.

It's similar to how the older medical term of mentally retarded is the offensive term for those who are mentally disabled.

A crossdresser is someone who wears opposite gender clothing for sexual gratification OR to express an occasional experience being dressed in the opposite gender to feel that way. When they do it for sexual gratification, chances are they do this in the privacy of their own home rather than the bathroom of Barnes and Noble.

but i wont get off topic on that as that is for another thread entirely.

Quote from: Tracey on August 19, 2011, 08:17:03 PM
That's the tax bracket I'm in! I'm not growing up, though.

High five! Love it.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 10:39:49 PM
Because you correlated a crossdresser as a sexual deviant in the women's bathroom for a purpose of sexual activity of some kind and then you mentioned your daughter which would surmise that the crossdresser is capable of committing a sexual deviant activity in the presence of a minor; i.e, pedophilia. Even if the person was in the next stall doing it, the state would charge that person with sexual activities in the presence of a minor.

And you backed this comment a few posts later when you commented that a crossdresser would go to a female bathroom to masturbate with their pantyhose; which is eerily similar to what right winged conservatives would declare a transsexual of doing.

Your message certainly did not convey the meaning that you would not have your daughter in the bathroom with a crossdresser because he does not have a "F" on his driver's license.

nor did I make the correlation between sexual deviancy and crossdressers.  I simply stated what is in the psych books regarding ->-bleeped-<-s and why they are labled as such.... nor do crossdressers dress in opposite sex attire for sexual arousal.......but it is rather intriquing that "pedophile" was the first thought.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 10:52:39 PM
A ->-bleeped-<- is an older medical term which is now coined as an offensive term for those who crossdress. It's the same thing.

It's similar to how the older medical term of mentally retarded is the offensive term for those who are mentally disabled.

A crossdresser is someone who wears opposite gender clothing for sexual gratification OR to express an occasional experience being dressed in the opposite gender to feel that way. When they do it for sexual gratification, chances are they do this in the privacy of their own home rather than the bathroom of Barnes and Noble.

but i wont get off topic on that as that is for another thread entirely.

but there is also the chance that a ->-bleeped-<- would do it in a stall next to a young girl and that is where the concern comes in and rightfully so.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 11:01:01 PM
but it is rather intriquing that "pedophile" was the first thought.

I already answered that:

Because you correlated a crossdresser ->-bleeped-<- as a sexual deviant in the women's bathroom for a purpose of sexual activity of some kind and then you mentioned your daughter which would surmise that the crossdresser ->-bleeped-<- is capable of committing a sexual deviant activity in the presence of a minor; i.e, pedophilia. Even if the person was in the next stall doing it (as you stated in the next post concerning the illegal sexual activity of them masturbating in their pantyhose and how you do not want your daughter in the same bathroom), the state would charge that person with sexual activities in the presence of a minor. Federal Statute 247 F .3d 1158 Floroda statutes 827.03, 827.071

Source regarding Sex Crime in the presence of a minor: Pasco County, FL Sheriff Deputy from 1993-1997.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 11:03:19 PM
I already answered that:

Because you correlated a crossdresser ->-bleeped-<- as a sexual deviant in the women's bathroom for a purpose of sexual activity of some kind and then you mentioned your daughter which would surmise that the crossdresser ->-bleeped-<- is capable of committing a sexual deviant activity in the presence of a minor; i.e, pedophilia. Even if the person was in the next stall doing it (as you stated in the next post concerning the illegal sexual activity of them masturbating in their pantyhose and how you do not want your daughter in the same bathroom), the state would charge that person with sexual activities in the presence of a minor. Federal Statute 247 F .3d 1158

Source regarding Sex Crime in the presence of a minor: Pasco County, FL Sheriff Deputy from 1993-1997.

re read the original comment

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 11:03:19 PM
I already answered that:

Because you correlated a crossdresser ->-bleeped-<- as a sexual deviant in the women's bathroom for a purpose of sexual activity of some kind and then you mentioned your daughter which would surmise that the crossdresser ->-bleeped-<- is capable of committing a sexual deviant activity in the presence of a minor; i.e, pedophilia. Even if the person was in the next stall doing it (as you stated in the next post concerning the illegal sexual activity of them masturbating in their pantyhose and how you do not want your daughter in the same bathroom), the state would charge that person with sexual activities in the presence of a minor. Federal Statute 247 F .3d 1158

Source regarding Sex Crime in the presence of a minor: Pasco County, FL Sheriff Deputy from 1993-1997.

again, I never made the correlation, I simply stated what is in the psych books and a loose definition.  it's obvious to me, that you consider dressing in the opposite sex attire for sexual gratification to be sexually deviant?

I did read the original statement and that is how Regan and I came to that conclusion

QuoteNow remember, TV's are TV because of sexual gratification and excitement and most, if not all, parents would have major issues with them being in a restroom with a young daughter....I know I would.
imagine a young girl in a stall in the bathroom doing #1 or #2 (lol).....the stall next to her is a TV pleasuring himself because he likes the way his pantyhose feel on his legs

That is a criminal offense of committing a sexual crime in the presence of a minor. So it was entirely within the scope of reason that we had the understanding you were talking about TV committing pedophilia. If this wasn't your intentions then you need to rephrase your statements more clearly.

And no, I do not find people dressing for sexual gratification as deviant. We were making the point that you said it was by them conducting sexually inappropriate acts in a public restroom while a girl was in the next stall using the bathroom.

But this is way off topic and I answered your questions effectively and now we are going around in circles, besides this should be in an entirely different thread as it has no bearing to the thread subject.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 10:39:49 PM
And you backed this comment a few posts later when you commented that a crossdresser would go to a female bathroom to masturbate with their pantyhose; which is eerily similar to what right winged conservatives would declare a transsexual of doing.

again, your coming to your own conclusion.......I provided that as an example and a what if scenerio

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 11:17:47 PM
I did read the original statement and that is how Regan and I came to that conclusion

That is a criminal offense of committing a sexual crime in the presence of a minor. So it was entirely within the scope of reason that we had the understanding you were talking about TV committing pedophilia. If this wasn't your intentions then you need to rephrase your statements more clearly.

And no, I do not find people dressing for sexual gratification as deviant. We were making the point that you said it was by them conducting sexually inappropriate acts in a public restroom while a girl was in the next stall using the bathroom.

I never even mentioned anything in any of my comments correlating TV and sexual deviancy, that's something you came up with.  show me anywhere in my comments where I made that corrleation and I'll applaud it.....same thing where you think I indicated that ->-bleeped-<-s were pedophiles.

the general conception is this:  most if not all parents would have (and do) have major issues with ->-bleeped-<-s using a female restroom for the following two reasons:
1. they are ->-bleeped-<- because dressing in opposite sex clothing provides sexual gratification, and may be done in a public restroom.  Likewise, they do not identify as the opposite sex
2. if it did occur in a public restroom, at the height of that sexual arousal, it could lead to a sexual crime being committed if the opportunity was present.

they are not viewed as female, nor do they identify as being female, and should not be using female restrooms period.  They are men and as with any other men (cis included) they should use the appropriate restroom.


[/quote]

Folks, I don't see any clear implication in Jamie Nicole's post that CDs/TVs are pedophiles. I'll admit that I found the comment a bit disturbing at first, but I reread it and her later comments without finding anything worthy of smites or attacks. So far, it looks like we just have a strong debate going on here, and I'd like to keep it that way.

JN has clarified that she wouldn't want a male-identified person in the women's restroom, even if that person is presenting as female, and this is a valid concern both in and out of trans circles. We debate it endlessly on Susan's, and even we disagree amongst ourselves. That's okay. It's a tough problem that deserves debate. But it seems to me that the thread is going off topic a bit. Let's see if we can get back on track.

guys i just wanted to know if it would generally be ok to refer to someone who is presenting as a female with female pronouns whether or not they identified as a female, or if i was making an enormous faux pas.

regarding bathroom issues, i don't give a flying fig who is in my bathroom. i just want to be able to pee and ->-bleeped-<- in peace. you're equally as likely to get a pedophile in the womens' restroom as the mens' really, because if someone is going to commit a sexual crime, the signs on the door aren't going to stop them. i don't need this debate, and i think it's sad that people who are already so marginalized and discriminated against by society ON THE VERY TOPIC YOU'RE ARGUING ABOUT are trying to deny the rights we have only somewhat achieved- to others. that's all i have to say. if you have more, please create a new thread.

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 19, 2011, 11:47:41 PM
guys i just wanted to know if it would generally be ok to refer to someone who is presenting as a female with female pronouns whether or not they identified as a female, or if i was making an enormous faux pas.

No faux pas. You kind of have to expect to be addressed in the way you present.

Foe paws, however...  ;)

I think it is very hard to tell transwomen from crossdressers.

I remember about 10 years ago when I first went to a gender clinic in London I saw several transwomen who I thought at first impression were crossdressers.  I was initially quite shocked to find out some were on HRT and awaiting surgery.

I have also seen many crossdressers over the years who I thought were actually natal females and they really had the physical shape and appearance for looking so convincing but they didn't want SRS and didn't want to be female.

I feel this is pretty simple, refer to them according to how they present. I personally know a post op TS that some people might say looks more like a cross dresser. And I highly doubt ANY cross dresser would be offended if you used pronouns that fit how they appeared. I just can't see for example a MTF cross dresser out in public demanding to be called sir or being insulted for being called her. "Look, I'm really a man" is NOT something they would say. And IMHO it's insulting to even ask given for all you know they are a post op on years of HRT that just doesn't pass well. If someone really is ambiguous, it's not that hard to just avoid gender pronouns all together in casual conversation.

I'm actually shocked this is even a question here...

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 11:02:36 PM
but there is also the chance that a ->-bleeped-<- would do it in a stall next to a young girl and that is where the concern comes in and rightfully so.

Then the default of your argument is that it would make it ok if it were an adult female the next stall?  I'm pretty sure no one male, female, adult or child wants to be in the next stall when that's going on.  Does it happen?  Yes.  That's why there are laws against it.  Again, statistically, its more likely that your son would be exposed that then your daughter, but if you want to keep throwing around dangerous stereotypes, so be it.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 11:20:00 PM
again, your coming to your own conclusion.......I provided that as an example and a what if scenerio

Well following your same logic, lesbians shouldn't be allowed into the women's bathroom either..

You might try the honest and enquiring route. 

IE: I have know a few people that are Transgender and was wondering if you are?

You would get a simple reply with out hurting someones feelings that way

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 19, 2011, 11:47:41 PM
guys i just wanted to know if it would generally be ok to refer to someone who is presenting as a female with female pronouns whether or not they identified as a female, or if i was making an enormous faux pas.

You won't go wrong refering to someone how they present. It would be a very rare case that say someone presents as a woman would be upset being called she and vice versa.

This other nonsense about a TV/CD is somehow likely to use every trip to the restroom for personal gratification is a pathetic excuse to deny transpeople the right to not be humiliated when they need to take a leak. And given what most HRT does to trans women makes this even worse. Maybe this person posting this was stealth about her transition and lived as a man until they had grs, but that isn't how most people do it.  And if I recall, you are required to do a year "real life test", so requiring someone to live as a woman but be forced to use the men's bathroom is demanding they humiliate themselves on a daily basis.

I could see something like this being argued from outside this community by a right wing nutcase but I am shocked once again watching a post-op TS BEATING UP people following in their footsteps. I mean does GRS make these people forget what they had to suffer through? It appears so.

Kia Ora,

::) Only if you know the person personally can you tell for sure ! Sadly the fact is some trans-women have no dress sense, especially those just starting out...

Metta Zenda :)

Let me sum up the argument so far very briefly.  It is this: ->-bleeped-<-s are men who don't think of themselves as being female and wear women's clothes for sexual gratification and as such they should be excluded from female bathrooms because the general public is unable to a great extent to discern the difference between a ->-bleeped-<- and a transsexual/transgender person.   Perhaps a way around the toilet thing is that ->-bleeped-<-s only go out fully dressed to gay and transsexual bars/pubs etc where there are no children to see them.    Genetic women in gay and transsexual bars really have a cheek if they complain about 'men in the women's restroom'.   Doing this is akin to going to a gay bar and loudly and vociferously complaining to the other patrons and management: ' Oh my God there are men dancing with each other', or 'there are two women kissing in the corner, quick get the manager to call the police.'
  I think that some of the comments by a certain person in this thread amount to very little more than trans snobbery.  It reminds me of the the old British class observation.  Upper class man: I look down on him because he is middle-class.   Middle-Class Man: I look up at him because he is upper class.  But I look down on him(Working-class man) because he is working class.   Human beings have a powerful and abiding desire to feel superior to others, in the trans case it of course shows itself as 'I am a bona-fide transwoman, YOU are just a man in a skirt.'   It makes these people feel all smug and secure.     You cannot legislate against human nature, if the law allowed us full access to genetic women's spaces then certain people would just move on from the 'no-genetic males' in the ladies' toilet argument to something else.   The only long-term solution is to be so secure in your sense of identity that nothing can upset you.   This comes with determination and practice and a good and non Polly-Annish understanding of people and their motivations.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on August 20, 2011, 05:19:24 PMHuman beings have a powerful and abiding desire to feel superior to others, in the trans case it of course shows itself as 'I am a bona-fide transwoman, YOU are just a man in a skirt.' 

do ->-bleeped-<-s identify as female?  do they have a dx of gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria?  maybe I was wrong, but what exactly is the definition of "->-bleeped-<-?"

Valerie you have just dismissed and 'demoted' transgender women to being little more than ->-bleeped-<-s, and a further implication of your last sentence is that we transgender women are in some ways worse than ->-bleeped-<-s as we are both deluding ourselves that we unlike ->-bleeped-<-s are women.    Surgery and hormones won't make you a woman they will only give you the outer appearance of one.   It is the mind that determines a person's gender.   A male can be a woman despite all appearances to the contrary.

We human beings are tormentented by our sense of self and our awareness of the concept: Time.   I often yearn for the simplicity and natural dignity of the animals.  No cat ever wonders if it is male or female.  No squirrel agonises over whether it likes male squirrel or female ones or does it like both.    No bird sitting on a fencepost, or flying like an eagle over moorland far below torture itself with questions like ' Why didn't my father love me as much as my mother?   Am I fundamentally unlovable?'    ' What is going to happen to me next week, next month, heavens next year!!'    We humans exhaust ourselves because we cannot be like the animals but neither can we be like the gods.    This seems like a recipe to despair and suicide, but there is a way out and that is to be always present in the 'Now'.   Do not let your mind wander into the future or dwell upon the past.  You only torment yourself because the past is over and you can do absolutely nothing to change what happened.  Forgiveness is the key to unlocking past traumas.   Dreading or anticipating the future pulls you away from the 'Now' and in the case of dread it torments you with what the Taoists call 'the ten-thousand things''.  Anyone who has lain awake all night before starting a new job, or having to do something 'unpleasant' will know the terrible contortions the mind gets itself into.   When feeling dread,anxiety, regret start watching the mind like an observer.  Don't try to hold on to nice thoughts and push away unpleasant ones, just observe dispassionately and soon you will realise 'oh there I am thinking that thought, those thoughts again'.   Doing this has two benefits it calms the troubled mind and it takes all the energy out of troublesome thoughts.   If you cannot take time out to watch your thoughts e.g. you are at work, then another technique is to immerse yourself in what you are doing regardless of how boring or petty it might be.  In the words of Shunryu Suzuki 'Do not be a smoky fire'.    You should read any book by Joko Beck as she is very good at explaining these ideas to Western readers and Americans especially.

Kia Ora ,

::) In a nutshell....... 

If one does not want to be rude or offensive then it would pay just to use the pronoun that suit the style of clothing the person is wearing...If it's female attire then she, her etc if it's male then he him etc...

They will soon let you know if it make them feel uncomfortable and what their preference is...

Never judge a book by it's cover ! But if it looks like a book well..........

Metta Zenda :)

If people want to think of you all as the most selfish, least hospitable people on earth, then I'm giving them this thread, because that will show 'em won't it?

Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 06:54:12 PM
If people want to think of you all as the most selfish, least hospitable people on earth, then I'm giving them this thread, because that will show 'em won't it?

Kia Ora Tek,

::) Having a hard day ? Remember "Nothing is permanent" not even your mood...

Metta Zenda :)

There are legal provisions for people using a restroom, or any other public room for that matter, that engage in perverse lewd and/or lascivious behavior.  If anybody, regardless of their gender identity or what clothes they happen to be wearing, engages in such behavior, there is recourse.  If somebody is just being creepy in a restroom, again leaving out gender stuff, without actually crossing any legal lines then you have every right to get away from them.

Feeding into people's irrationality when it comes to who is in a restroom with them, and where trans-whatever people belong has become the conventional method for people/politicians with bad intentions for us as a group to shoehorn a debate for limiting our rights into their various platforms, and I think we should not be feeding into it.  Use the bathroom you feel most comfortable in, then when you are done, leave.  This isn't something to freak out about.  If somebody is being weird in a bathroom, then they should be dealt with accordingly, regardless of their gender whatever.

My answer to the original question is if somebody is presenting as female, they are "she" until they tell me otherwise.

Quote from: Valeriedances on August 20, 2011, 08:47:44 PM
If Jerry Springer puts on a skirt as a joke during a show he is still a male to me and i wont dignify the situation by calling him a she if i happen to be on the show. This is what i mean by perception. We all have this right. If this is true, then why would we call a tv a she (other than to avoid a confrontation).

The difference is we all know who Jerry Springer is. If he puts on a skirt during the show, we know  he is still a male because we know him.

When you meet someone outside, the truth is you don't know if that person is a CD or a TS.  Ive seen just as many TS wear gawdy jewelry, heavy makeup, and provocative clothing as I have seen CDs. (This past Philly Pride parade they had an entire float of TS girls topless except for tassels taped to their nipples. To assume you know someone is a CD or a TS is just that. Assuming.

You could be walking into a situation and call some girl a "sir" thinking "eh, he's a CD" and this person could actually be a TS and you will end up falling into the same trap that we fight against society when delivering pronouns.

There's nothing against calling a Cd a she if you aren't sure. Your pride isn't at stake. Hers is if you get it wrong.

if a guy throws on a skirt to be funny or cute then that's one thing.

if a Crossdresser puts on a skirt and goes out and wishes to be called a she or if I see someone wearing a nametag that says "Im a CD" Im still going to use the pronoun she.

For me, it's not a big issue to casually use the word "she."

The issue I would have is if the crossdresser does not identify as a trans or has no desire to transition and wants "F" on her legal paperwork because of the issue of going back and forth in gender presentation would be a logistical legal nightmare.

The ts girls were focused obsessing on the things i mentioned (transition takes over a ts' life), while the cd's wont be.

The majority of the metal health professions agrees that not obsessing is better than obsessing.

You all are you're own worst enemies, but then again, your metal health professorial has told you that before haven't they?

Omg 121 replies...LOL *Bump*  :D

You know there is a crossdresser board here at Susan's.  Why doesn't someone ask them to post their opinions in this thread.   

I saw all sorts of people 'identify' as things.  Mostly as things they weren't. 

I honestly think the line between crossdressers and transsexuals is fuzzier than most people think.  I'm not saying they are the same, just that the line between them doesn't have a hard edge.

Quote from: Jen on August 20, 2011, 11:31:44 PM
I honestly think the line between crossdressers and transsexuals is fuzzier than most people think.  I'm not saying they are the same, just that the line between them doesn't have a hard edge.

Totally agree.

Quote from: Jen on August 20, 2011, 11:31:44 PM
I honestly think the line between crossdressers and transsexuals is fuzzier than most people think.  I'm not saying they are the same, just that the line between them doesn't have a hard edge.

That should bring out some interesting remarks :P

Quote from: Jen on August 20, 2011, 11:31:44 PM
I honestly think the line between crossdressers and transsexuals is fuzzier than most people think.  I'm not saying they are the same, just that the line between them doesn't have a hard edge.

and rightfully so......there is a big difference between the two groups

and rightfully so......there is a big difference between the two groups

Not as much as you think.  Or would claim.  Name ONE, solid, unchanging thing that is truly different between every CD and every TS.

About 2 years difference between the one group and the other...
as was mentioned before?

Is that solid and unchanging? No, I guess not.

I also think the lines between the two are pretty fluid, as in: People do change after all...

Axelle

I've seen people come and go from these forums, who came as crossdressers, realized they needed to transition, had SRS, and disappeared into the sunset.  That isn't debatable.  It happened.

There are a number of crossdressers, like above, that are simply transsexuals that haven't admitted it to themselves yet.

There are a number of people that crossdress because they can't or won't transition for any number of reasons.

A large number of crossdressers, I don't mean to speak for them btw, this is just my observation, do so because of identifying one way or another with females, and being turned on has nothing or little to do with it.

Many of those same people do have low-intensity gender dysphoria which they mitigate through crossdressing.

So to me, that's fuzzy.  I'm not going to argue about it.

Is there anything remotely similar between somebody that identifies as 100% male and crossdresses solely for sexual, fetishistic, or attention craving reasons and a transsexual woman mid-transition?  No.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 21, 2011, 12:53:39 AM
and rightfully so......there is a big difference between the two groups

not really

got my vote here too Annah,

+ 1

Quote from: Jen on August 21, 2011, 01:33:09 AM
I've seen people come and go from these forums, who came as crossdressers, realized they needed to transition, had SRS, and disappeared into the sunset.  That isn't debatable.  It happened.

I started out online in a cross dressing newsgroup around 1996. At that time all the people in the group simply cross dressed at home. A large majority of that group of people either ended up post op or are living full time in one form or another. Maybe some TS's never wear women's clothes or cross dress until they are 100% post op and passable but I don't see that being the majority. YMMV

Quote from: Stephe on August 21, 2011, 08:17:14 AM
I started out online in a cross dressing newsgroup around 1996. At that time all the people in the group simply cross dressed at home. A large majority of that group of people either ended up post op or are living full time in one form or another. Maybe some TS's never wear women's clothes or cross dress until they are 100% post op and passable but I don't see that being the majority. YMMV

I know they exist, but I have never personally met anyone (real life or internet) who NEVER wore ANY article of women's clothing before they declare themselves as a card carrying Disney discount transsexual.

However, since I posted this, I am sure someone will say they haven't crossdressed ever to support the mile wide chasm differences between a CD and a TS :P

I think that if a person's intent  is presenting as female that they would expect to be treated as a woman and referred to as a woman, and vice-versa.  The only problem with this issue is if your aren't sure if the person is presenting as male, female, or other.

I mean if a man is a cross-dresser, I would assume he's doing the best he can to present as female and his desire is to be seen, treated, and referred to as a woman.

Quote from: Annah on August 21, 2011, 08:21:03 AM
I know they exist, but I have never personally met anyone (real life or internet) who NEVER wore ANY article of women's clothing before they declare themselves as a card carrying Disney discount transsexual.

However, since I posted this, I am sure someone will say they haven't crossdressed ever to support the mile wide chasm differences between a CD and a TS :P

And I'll be the one to say that it really can happen. ;D

While I can't claim to have never ever ever worn women's clothing before coming out, the times I did so weren't instigated by me.  After a Halloween party where my friends put eyeliner on me, I cried when I had to take it off.  It was the first time I'd worn makeup since I was a kid and my mom indulged me by putting some on me when I asked.  So I told my girlfriend at the time about this (she was my first girlfriend and our relationship lasted five years) and she got all excited, saying she'd wanted to dress me up but didn't know how I'd take it.  Obviously, I was thrilled.

It's not something that happened often.  It also wasn't something that happened before that relationship or at any point after that relationship.  Until, that is, I came out to my very first person and she insisted on having me take some of her old clothes that she didn't wear anymore.  The very next day, I put them on, went to work, and was full time.

A reminder to not engage in personal attacks or make broad generalizations about ANY sub-segment of our community!  :police:

Quote
10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.  This includes but is not limited to:

    Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more legitimate, deserving, or more real than any others

You cannot tell who is a cross dresser and who is transsexual just by looking.  There are too many trans people who don't quite pass and too many CD'ers that pass very well for anyone to think they can tell.  That's why the "I don't want cross dressers in the ladies room" meme is just as transphobic as the "men in dresses will assault women in the ladies room if we pass this nondiscrimination law," BS.  Prejudging by identity or appearance is wrong, in my book, and it should never be countenanced, particularly in a forum whose mission it is to support the ENTIRE trans community.

The differences within the transgender community are definitely real.  They are not, however, big enough to justify separation and exclusion, particularly in the political sense.  Let me remind you that proposing such is a rule violation here, rule #10 to be exact.

If a member of the general population is confused or ignorant about the differences within the transgender community then it's our job to educate them, not to exclude the people who are causing the confusion.  If you don't feel up to doing the work, then say nothing or, better yet, point the person toward someone who is.  If we disparage parts of our community we disparage ourselves.  The uneducated masses don't care about the fine distinctions between a cross dresser, drag queen or transsexual.  They fear and loathe us all equally.

Let's not be so quick to judge others as we ourselves have been unfairly and negatively judged by others.

"How to tell  Transwomen from Cross-dressers?"  Well obviously you can't unless you ask the person in question directly, and that's not a recommended way to proceed.  Yes some pass and some don't from both sides, however you still don't know one from the other, unless you are actually aware of the individuals situation.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 09:01:20 PM
why would I use the men's bathroom when I have a vagina between my legs and my legal documents indicating F for my sex? No, I would not use a mans bathroom.
No, a mother should not take her young son into the bathroom with her and vice versa.
If a TV or CD identified as being female, then yes, they should use the female bathroom.............but they dont identify as being female which is why they should not use the female bathroom. does that answer your question?

Let me ask a question Jamie, suppose you have your 3 or 4 year old grandson with you, are you going to send him into the men's restroom alone or bring him with you into the women's restroom? I think the safe bet would be that you would bring him with you. A smart parent or grandparent would never send a girl or boy into a restroom unescorted alone until they are old enough. Every thing happens in a stall behind a close door so who cares if they bring them in. Safety for the child should be your number one concern.

Chloe

Quote from: chloe23 on August 21, 2011, 05:29:07 PM
Let me ask a question Jamie, suppose you have your 3 or 4 year old grandson with you, are you going to send him into the men's restroom alone or bring him with you into the women's restroom? I think the safe bet would be that you would bring him with you. A smart parent or grandparent would never send a girl or boy into a restroom unescorted alone until they are old enough. Every thing happens in a stall behind a close door so who cares if they bring them in. Safety for the child should be your number one concern.

Chloe

i agree that's what my mom did and well i am glad she did :)

*****

If you are T(whatever) and you have a 3,4,(5) year old child, do NOT - ever, evereverever!!!! Send them into any bathroom alone. If you're a crossdresser, and your kid needs to go pee, take them into the bathroom to help them pee. I don't care if you can't pass and you come into the girl's room to help your son pee, and men won't care if you take your daughter into the men's room either. Kids gotta pee. Let's not forget the primary function of a bathroom in this delusional mess of a thread. I used to take my daughter into the men's room, nobody cares.

Ri-diculous.

Let's not forget the primary function of a bathroom in this delusional mess of a thread.

People write about what really interests them and fascinates them.

Quote from: tekla on August 21, 2011, 05:50:59 PM
Let's not forget the primary function of a bathroom in this delusional mess of a thread.

People write about what really interests them and fascinates them.

Sigh,
This is true. My bad,  carry on!  :-\

Quote from: chloe23 on August 21, 2011, 05:29:07 PM
Let me ask a question Jamie, suppose you have your 3 or 4 year old grandson with you, are you going to send him into the men's restroom alone or bring him with you into the women's restroom? I think the safe bet would be that you would bring him with you. A smart parent or grandparent would never send a girl or boy into a restroom unescorted alone until they are old enough. Every thing happens in a stall behind a close door so who cares if they bring them in. Safety for the child should be your number one concern.

Chloe

As written, it's a hypothetical question since I dont have (too young) a grandson, but I'll answer your question anyway.  The only places where I shop either have single toilet restrooms or family restrooms so I wouldnt be in a situation where I had a choice of multiple toilet restrooms........but, if I was in that situation of only having a multiple toilet restroom, he would be sent into the mens room and I would stand guard outside the door. (as I have for a female friend using the mens room at the high school sports stadium because the womens room was locked)

This thread got waaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 21, 2011, 06:17:41 PM
but, if I was in that situation of only having a multiple toilet restroom, he would be sent into the mens room and I would stand guard outside the door.

This is classic.. You are worried that your daughter would be exposed to a cross dresser masturbating in the women's room while you are in there with her, using this as the reason ONLY people such as yourself that are post op or natal females should EVER be allowed. But have no issue sending a little boy unescorted into a mens restroom? Do you have any idea how much more likely it would be for then to have a problem in the mens room alone (like you standing guard does what?) vs this dreamed up -cross dressers jack off in the restroom- nonsense you dreamed up? I need to link your posts to the thread about "I see no elitism from post-ops on this forum"...

I would stand guard outside the door

Guarding what exactly?  You can't keep anyone out, there is no authority for that.

Quote from: Samantharz on August 21, 2011, 06:24:06 PM
This thread got waaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic.

yes can you guys please start a new thread if you have more to discuss?? i keep getting notifications for the new posts in this thread and as the op, my question has been answered and i'm asking you to please stop.

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 21, 2011, 07:29:28 PM
yes can you guys please start a new thread if you have more to discuss?? i keep getting notifications for the new posts in this thread and as the op, my question has been answered and i'm asking you to please stop.

I believe you can shut off the notifications if you don't wish to follow the topic.

Z