Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hey everybody,

There was a time of my life when I lived in the Susan's forum - but time marches on. I've done it all, I've transitioned, I've had every surgery you can get, I'm married, I've gone stealth.

But, I was reading the comments on a TS article on HuffPo and I was just floored by remembering how much ignorance is out there. And so, I came here and started reading the forum again. Same song, different day - trouble with SOs, suicidal ideation, trouble passing, etc.

And so, I had to share my perspective about how to deal with the problem what's haunted all of you for your whole lives, just as it haunted me. My advice is non-traditional, but I really think it's the best path. This is tough love advice from someone that's gone through everything you're going through.

1. Work with your therapists. Something I heard constantly when I was as Op here was "There are no therapists in my town." "It won't help me." "I don't think I should have to jump through hoops." 

Here's the truth. Most of us have some serious damage from this psychologically. We're undersocialized, we have anger issues and we need therapy to move on. Beyond that, every bit of professional documentation you can get will help you with the SSA, getting a driver's licence, changing court records and the like. Get a therapist and really do the work.

2. Leave the community. Get the support here you need, and get out as soon as you can. There is a vampiric toll that the TG community takes on you. It's like reveling in old wounds.

I once tried dating an FTM, and what I quickly discovered was doubling up on the transgender drama led to a very negative, sad relationship. You are engulfed in drama and negativity every second you spend here - and you have your own battles to fight. Get healthy, and get out.

3. Get FFS It's expensive, it's quite painful. It's worth every penny. FFS is the difference between having a normal life where you can be employed and move on, and getting stuck in limbo. I paid Dr. Siegel in Boston about $70k for my face, and I am so thankful that I did. 

And, wow, was it painful. For a year it was, get a surgery, recover, get another surgery. It took a huge psychological toll on me - but it's also over. Looking back, I think FFS was more important to my mental well being than GRS.

4. Get a job So many of us revel in poverty and unemployment. And the economy has collapsed in recent years, which I suspect makes it even worse. But, there is life after transitioning. For myself, I was forced in my late 20s to start a career path I should have started when I was in my early 20s. The clock is ticking. You will have disadvantages, you should get started.

5. Go stealth Don't tell people about your past. Don't have RL transgender friends. Don't post articles about TS issues on FB, though you might feel strongly about it. Again, this is for your own sanity, for your own employment potential, and so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it? To be like other women? Moving to a new place is a great idea.

6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition. Generally speaking, the people that transition without families are far more successful than those with families, in my experience. It's drastic how much more successful you will be when you are unfettered by these complications. Maybe it's too late to do anything about this - but if you are reading this before transitioning, PLEASE take this advice.

7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion or excuses.
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This is the biggest one. Delusion and excuses go together with TG like peanut butter and jelly. There is an inevitable "Poor me," period when you transition. You will one day look back on your behavior as immature. The secret is, the people that are successful at this push through the hard choices and move on.

"I don't care if I pass. It's other people's problem, not mine."
"My voice skills are fine."
"I can stay in the closet forever."
"I'm too broke to afford a therapist."
"I don't need electrolysis."
"My family won't understand."

I have all of these countless times, when these people were all deluding themselves. Your success is in your own hands. The government won't help you. You friends will only barely understand. Your medical providers will generally know less than you. You are the only person you can count on. Don't sabotage yourself by choosing to beleive things that are not true, and don't wallow in excuses.

Life exists after transition. This thing that's eating you alive right now will always be one of your greatest adventures, but it's not going to be your only one. Move through it. Some of us have the courage to push through, many of us are broken along the way. Your destiny is in your own hands.



so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it

Not for everyone, matter of fact 'normal' can get pretty creepy depending on where you are.

I think Crimsonsky's concepts are reasonable, each person might have to adapt them to their own situation, but they are a starting point.

As for "stealth" some of us want that, we want to blend into society and just live our lives, but that is not everyone, there are those who enjoy the spotlight and want to be out there on the edge drawing attention to themselves and their lives.

Both are ok and really are personal decisions.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM

2. Leave the community. Get the support here you need, and get out as soon as you can. There is a vampiric toll that the TG community takes on you. It's like reveling in old wounds.

I once tried dating an FTM, and what I quickly discovered was doubling up on the transgender drama led to a very negative, sad relationship. You are engulfed in drama and negativity every second you spend here - and you have your own battles to fight. Get healthy, and get out.

I disagree with this point. There are those post ops out there who lends a guiding hand to someone just starting to transition. I received very wise and sagely advice from a woman who is post op, married, etc etc and now I am doing the very same thing. If everyone leaves when they are post op, then people who are new to transitioning will be left with only online informational resources...which is nothing compared to an actual person to talk to who has gone through it.

If post ops leave then that is fine and it is their own business but I wouldnt say its like that with all post ops

Quote3. Get FFS It's expensive, it's quite painful. It's worth every penny. FFS is the difference between having a normal life where you can be employed and move on, and getting stuck in limbo. I paid Dr. Siegel in Boston about $70k for my face, and I am so thankful that I did. 

And, wow, was it painful. For a year it was, get a surgery, recover, get another surgery. It took a huge psychological toll on me - but it's also over. Looking back, I think FFS was more important to my mental well being than GRS.

this is subjective too. there are girls who don't need ffs. I never have plans to get it done and there are also girls who just have no desire to get ffs. There is nothing wrong getting ffs if you feel it helps your mental well being but there is also nothing wrong with not getting ffs if it will not make an impact on your life. I know FFS will not make an impact on my life so I do not need to spend the resources to get FFS done.

For me, I can put 70K down on a down payment on a home, have srs, and travel around Europe for the summer. It's all subjective.

Plus, as a professor, I do not and will not have 70 grand to throw down on plastic surgery.

Quote5. Go stealth Don't tell people about your past. Don't have RL transgender friends. Don't post articles about TS issues on FB, though you might feel strongly about it. Again, this is for your own sanity, for your own employment potential, and so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it? To be like other women? Moving to a new place is a great idea.

I disagree with this too (well, 50/50). There is nothing wrong going stealth. Hell, at work no one knows of my physical birth gender, but at the same time, I have a desire to help out other girls so I have blogs and youtubes. It all depends on the person. For me, it doesn't matter if I am stealth or not. My friends at Seminary knows Im trans. My professors and deans know so it's no biggie for them and it's no biggie for me. My boyfriend knows Im trans too so, for me, i don't need to go stealth in that area.

But for me, I chose when to be stealth and when not to be stealth. And in all honesty, no one is truly stealth. My hiring manager at my part time job at JC Penney's know my physical birth gender because a background check brought up my prior legal name even tho my name and gender marker has been changed for awhile....even on my social security card.

Quote6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition. Generally speaking, the people that transition without families are far more successful than those with families, in my experience. It's drastic how much more successful you will be when you are unfettered by these complications. Maybe it's too late to do anything about this - but if you are reading this before transitioning, PLEASE take this advice.

I disagree with this too (a lot). My family has been so supportive with my transition. They really helped me get through some tough spots. I have 4 brothers and sisters, a mother, a step mother, and they have been very supportive of me. I have even renewed an awesome relationship with my aunt and her two daughters from this transition.

While every scenario is different and families will react differently, saying to dissolve your family is a bad idea if they have been ok with the transformation. And to assume all families will react like yours did is not a good idea either.

I admire your tenacity and conviction but I adhere to an old motto "what works for you may not work for someone else."  Every path is uniquely different and while your advice may have been perfect for you, they may not be compatible for someone else. :)

Have to say I find the original post unacceptable from a political, ideological and moral perspective.

Reminds me of a British politician's "Get on your bike and find a job" speech.

In the name of God how many people in this world have 70,000 available just like that? Most of the world lives on less than $2.00 a day. We are not all middle class North Americans.

I cannot stress how much I disagree with the opinions expressed.

Quote from: Annah on September 30, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
I disagree with this point. There are those post ops out there who lends a guiding hand to someone just starting to transition. I received very wise and sagely advice from a woman who is post op, married, etc etc and now I am doing the very same thing. If everyone leaves when they are post op, then people who are new to transitioning will be left with only online informational resources...which is nothing compared to an actual person to talk to who has gone through it.

I've spent my time counceling people in the community as well. I actually formed a very close friendship with the mother of someone I used to council here. Her daughter committed suicide, and she went through our emails and contacted me. I do know where you're coming from.

Ultimately, there will be people that stay and help out. But, I think it's better for you to move on. It's not good for you as a person to live and breathe something so painful continually.

Quote from: Annah on September 30, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
this is subjective too. there are girls who don't need ffs. I never have plans to get it done and there are also girls who just have no desire to get ffs. There is nothing wrong getting ffs if you feel it helps your mental well being but there is also nothing wrong with not getting ffs if it will not make an impact on your life. I know FFS will not make an impact on my life so I do not need to spend the resources to get FFS done.

For me, I can put 70K down on a down payment on a home, have srs, and travel around Europe for the summer. It's all subjective.

Plus, as a professor, I do not and will not have 70 grand to throw down on plastic surgery.

Some of us do fine without FFS. I did well enough to date, to pass and to get a job. But I do even better with it. Honestly, none of us pass perfectly - but those that have had FFS are more successful than those of us that have not. It's as much for yourself as anything else. It helps a lot to look in the mirror and see the right face looking back at you.

Quote from: Annah on September 30, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
I disagree with this too (a lot). My family has been so supportive with my transition. They really helped me get through some tough spots. I have 4 brothers and sisters, a mother, a step mother, and they have been very supportive of me. I have even renewed an awesome relationship with my aunt and her two daughters from this transition.

While every scenario is different and families will react differently, saying to dissolve your family is a bad idea if they have been ok with the transformation. And to assume all families will react like yours did is not a good idea either.

I didn't say leave your family, I said start a family - as in have kids and a SO. Those are horrific complications, in my experience. If you're already done it, you have to push through anyway. But, it's far easier without them.

Quote from: Annah on September 30, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
I admire your tenacity and conviction but I adhere to an old motto "what works for you may not work for someone else."  Every path is uniquely different and while your advice may have been perfect for you, they may not be compatible for someone else. :)

To quote a friend of mine I met here, it's all well and good to be open minded - but no so much your brain falls out of your head. There are objective ways to gauge success at dealing with this. You can't just declare whatever you do to be successful and call it a day.

I do realize this is not the only formula. But, generally speaking? This is a solid game plan - especially the no excuses part.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 11:42:00 AM
I've spent my time counceling people in the community as well. I actually formed a very close friendship with the mother of someone I used to council here. Her daughter committed suicide, and she went through our emails and contacted me. I do know where you're coming from.

Ultimately, there will be people that stay and help out. But, I think it's better for you to move on. It's not good for you as a person to live and breathe something so painful continually.

When it comes to helping people out, I pick and chose the battles. Most of my help for others come through youtube and blogs where there is not a whole lot of personal face to face interaction but it is enough for me to help out when and what I can.

I understand about leaving the scene. I'm just saying this isn't necessarily true for everyone.

QuoteSome of us do fine without FFS. I did well enough to date, to pass and to get a job. But I do even better with it. Honestly, none of us pass perfectly - but those that have had FFS are more successful than those of us that have not. It's as much for yourself as anything else. It helps a lot to look in the mirror and see the right face looking back at you.

Well, if you want to get technical about it, not even cis gendered women passes perfectly. Concerning FFS and success, it really varies from person to person. I have never gotten clocked since I transitioned. I haven't had any bad experiences in terms of employment or life in general because I chose not to get FFS. I intern in a church as well as go to Seminary and work part time in a mall. Trust me, I know all about how people perceive you and yes, I do agree that the decision is about oneself more than anything. However, there are those who are fine without FFS.

I am not saying FFS is a bad thing or anything like that. I am just saying there are some who are fine without it. For me, I love what I see in the mirror pre FFS. This is just me.

QuoteI didn't say leave your family, I said start a family - as in have kids and a SO. Those are horrific complications, in my experience. If you're already done it, you have to push through anyway. But, it's far easier without them.

To quote a friend of mine I met here, it's all well and good to be open minded - but no so much your brain falls out of your head. There are objective ways to gauge success at dealing with this. You can't just declare whatever you do to be successful and call it a day.

I do realize this is not the only formula. But, generally speaking? This is a solid game plan - especially the no excuses part.

I enjoyed reading your versions but I wouldn't say it's a solid game plan. I would say it's a personal insight from someone who has gone through this path.

You can't just declare whatever you do to be successful and call it a day.

I don't know why not, as 'successful' is about as subjective as it gets.  Who's to say for another person what 'successful' constitutes.  I know people who started out doing things that most people would consider 'success' and hated it, so they went off and found other things to do, and in so doing, found their real 'success'.

^^ This is what I'm talking about exactly.

Being gentle and open-minded is great with other people. Do you support other people's choices? Are you tolerant towards others? Do you try to empathize with other people? These are great qualities. But what I'm talking about here is honesty with yourself.

I used to have a TS roommate while I was saving for surgery. She never worked on voice skills, was perpetually depressed, and I literally saw women run out of the restroom when she talked in a booming male voice. Was she successful?

Well, she was unemployed for two years, and took a 75 percent pay cut. But still - being employed is one yard stick. But she scares people to the point of having no friends. And she's deeply angry. Is that successful? If she were being honest with herself, could she work on some things and be happier? Definitely.

Delusion for us is often more attractive than reality. If we are being honest with ourselves, it's the truth. We all have a penchant for it.

There ARE clear measures of success.

I started reading this post, and at first, I thought, "Okay, a bit jaded, but I can see she has a point." But as I got further down, I started wondering, "Is this a joke? Please let this be the kind of eloquent and subtle sarcasm that I'm just too dumb to get." And then when I realized the OP was perfectly serious, I got angry.

Crimsonsky, how the hell does any of this advice make the world a safer, more tolerant place for those of us who cannot, or refuse on moral grounds to, drop $70K on surgery, cut ties with loved ones, viciously exclude people with similar experiences from our lives, and live in fear every day that someone will discover our "horrible" little secret? How does any of this really help, except to make us even more separate than we were to begin with? And why all the condescension? Jesus Christ, not everyone has the resources you do.

I can understand wanting a little emotional distance from the TS community. There's a lot of hurt there and only so much energy to go around trying to help. But I could never, ever live with myself if transitioning "successfully" meant dumping the friends that had helped me figure myself out as a person, especially if they still needed support themselves. And I could never respect someone who dumped me just so they could "pass" better.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 12:44:00 PM
^^ This is what I'm talking about exactly.

I used to have a TS roommate while I was saving for surgery. She never worked on voice skills, was perpetually depressed, and I literally saw women run out of the restroom when she talked in a booming male voice. Was she successful?

Well, she was unemployed for two years, and took a 75 percent pay cut. But still - being employed is one yard stick. But she scares people to the point of having no friends. And she's deeply angry. Is that successful? If she were being honest with herself, could she work on some things and be happier? Definitely.

That is a sad story and i can see where you are coming from but i can just as easily give the same success story of trans who did not follow the same line of advices you gave who got through just fine.

I changed my voice but this was a personal choice that I wanted to follow. I wouldn't necessarily contribute it to my success.

You're really judging others, and when you do that, remember you are not defining them, you're not labeling them, you're only labeling and defining yourself.

You people - above all other people - ought to know better than 'one size fits all.'

Well I see and respect both sides, but I'm going with crimsonsky on this one, but I have done a few things differently:

1. Work with your therapists.
My therapist was amazing, but each session I walked in with an agenda.  It's my money and my time, get what you need off your chest and get your answers.  I already have my two letters for SRS in hand, but they are state I can't have surgery until April, per SOC - I totally agree with.

2. Leave the community.
Tough one, but I'm doing that now.  Support group was a complete waste of time and energy, way too many whack jobs that don't have a F(#&ing clue.  Wearing a dress and having a beard - why won't people accept me as a woman!!!  WTF  Did meet some wonderful T-girls, but if we go out in public together, I just outed myself.  Instead I just have them over for dinner.

3. Get FFS
Check - best money I ever spent (might change my mind after I get BA or SRS)
I so love when people piss and moan about FFS.  Sorry I have money, but I work three jobs so I can pay for the things I need.  If you can't afford it, not my issue.
Spiegel girl too, but only $38K

4. Get a job
Check - Work three jobs actually....transitioned on the job at all three, nothing but complete support from 500 employees, plus paid short term disability for FFS recovery.  Each company has nothing covering Transgender in their policies.  Companies do not fire assets!!!

5. Go stealth
Beside my current friends, family, coworkers/existing client, doctors, etc - it's not discussed.
Nothing on Facebook
Though I do have a Youtube Channel which is my way of paying forward.
Plus this forum of course

6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition.
Agree, sometime it doesn't happen that way.  BTW  Everyone needs therapy in this case, most T-girls are thinking about themselves, so putting the right resources in place for the family is very important in their transition too.

7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion or excuses.
Agree, not that I'm flexible enough, I visualize a good kick in the pant every morning.  Transition is only a small part of my life!  It has also been the best 14 months of my life.

Quote from: jamiejo on September 30, 2011, 01:09:18 PM
Well I see and respect both sides, but I'm going with crimsonsky on this one, but I have done a few things differently:

3. Get FFS
Check - best money I ever spent (might change my mind after I get BA or SRS)
I so love when people piss and moan about FFS.  Sorry I have money, but I work three jobs so I can pay for the things I need.  If you can't afford it, not my issue.
Spiegel girl too, but only $38K

Its not the issue of FFS tha she raised but how she raised it. I am not defending people who piss and moan about FFS. I am defending those who simply do not need FFS but then it comes across that we somehow are missing out on life if we don't spend money to get it done. Or we are missing something that other girls with FFS has achieved. For some, FFS just isn't in our trans roadmap; whether through financial reasons or just the thought that we don't need it.

For me, personally, I feel that it would be a waste of money if I got FFS. Even if it was 5,000 that would be 5,000 I can put somewhere else. I am not bashing those who got FFS. If you feel you need it then by all means get FFS. However, we need to be careful how we look at those who do not get it done.

Quote4. Get a job
Check - Work three jobs actually....transitioned on the job at all three, nothing but complete support from 500 employees, plus paid short term disability for FFS recovery.  Each company has nothing covering Transgender in their policies.  Companies do not fire assets!!!

Yes. A good job is a must...but this goes beyond trans. I would label this as a life goal regardless of sexual or gender orientation.

If one wants SRS and therapy covered, they do not necessarily have to have an awesome paying job. For example, a cashier at sears only needs to pay 200 for their SRS surgery and a coke vendor stocker only needs to pay 100 for their SRS.

If SRS is extremely important (I know it is for me) then I would look for jobs you like to do and if you find a company that pays for it then it's a mega bonus.

For me, I picked a School that has it in their student Insurance package. It was one of the decision making factors for me in choosing a graduate school.

I would label this as a life goal regardless of sexual or gender orientation

My friend-girls think of it as one part of the Holy Trinity: Is he married?  Is is he gay?  Is he employed?

And I know plenty of guys who think the same way.  No job, no way.

Quote from: tekla on September 30, 2011, 01:34:35 PM
I would label this as a life goal regardless of sexual or gender orientation

My friend-girls think of it as one part of the Holy Trinity: Is he married?  Is is he gay?  Is he employed?

And I know plenty of guys who think the same way.  No job, no way.

yeah. I only date a guy who is either in college or has a job. If they live with their parents and has no job whatsoever, I tend to shy away from that. I would be spending all that time wondering why they aren't doing anything productive.

It's not a social status for me per say. It's more like "why does he still live at home and has no job?" It would be a question that would eat at me.

I get to deal with a lot of people who are independently wealthy - like really, really rich - and they are some of the hardest working people I know.  I recently did a few shows with Peter Frampton.  You know to date he sold 16 million (MILLION) copies of Framption Comes Alive, and that's not counting the number of singles for Do You Feel Like I Do, Baby I Love Your Way, and Show Me the Way.  So why does he need to tour?  He doesn't.  But there he is, playing his ass off, even if he's lost all his hair.  There's Bob Dylan, 70+ years old, still out playing gigs - despite the fact that he's richer than just about anyone, including being one of the largest stockholders in Columbia, and now Sony.  There's Phil and Bob from the Grateful Dead out on tour right now.  Hell any ten of us could retire just on the t-shirt revenues they've made.  Not to mention selling more tickets to more concerts than any artist ever.  And the records, and the books, and the rest of the merch.

DON'T TRUST PEOPLE WHO DON'T WORK HARD AT AN HONEST JOB - they are looking for someone else to do it for them.

Quote from: jamiejo on September 30, 2011, 01:09:18 PM
Check - best money I ever spent (might change my mind after I get BA or SRS)
I so love when people piss and moan about FFS.  Sorry I have money, but I work three jobs so I can pay for the things I need.  If you can't afford it, not my issue.
Spiegel girl too, but only $38K

Actually, with Spiegel, I think it was only $41k for me. I'm including the BA and GRS with that number. Isn't he just the best? He's a really nice person, and his nurses are super nice too. He sends flowers to all of his patients while they are recovering. I still keep all of my remotes in one of the vases.

Quote from: jamiejo on September 30, 2011, 01:09:18 PMCompanies do not fire assets!!!

That's so true. I work in game development now, and my company really appreciates people that know their stuff and make their deadlines. People that are technical enough to learn Unreal, zBrush, Maya tend to be a bit quirky already. ^^

Quote from: jamiejo on September 30, 2011, 01:09:18 PM
Transition is only a small part of my life!  It has also been the best 14 months of my life.

It's a huge relief, that's for sure. But it won't be your only adventure. Getting married, finding a job I'm passionate about, seeing my work get published, getting a house with my husband, taking the puppies to puppy school - these have all been great adventures too. This doesn't have to be your life forever. It's more like a major correction in course.

It's really good to think about what your life will be afterwards. Write down the top three things you're worried about, and throw it out the window - because other difficult things will happen that you didn't plan for.

You sound really cool, btw. ^^

In any case, I'll leave this thread here. Take from it whatever you wish, Susan's crowd - or go on about your merry way. And best of luck. This journey is tough, but it can make you a stronger person.

Phew! I'm glad that you didn't get to #8 and insist that we all get breast augmentation too.

Yeah, we probably got off easy, since those were only the 'top 7' I'm sure there are many many more she could have inflicted on us.

I'm not sure how any one could be upset by this post. There are some really good ideas in there a Crimsonsky clearly titled it "MY top 7...".   If what she wrote truely offends you, I consider putting a little more thought into it and maybe reread it. I think she points out some great things that are simply a matter of taking responsibility for yourself and not blaming others.  It also seems oddly reminiscent of other recent posts by post ops that get pounced on by those not even on HRT yet or just went full time.

I think if we want post ops to stay around we should at least respect the fact that they may be trying to give us some gems of wisdom from having completed the journey that we are on or just beginning. I will stop there but I want to highlight a few things from her post that I think people should ponder.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM
Hey everybody,

There was a time of my life when I lived in the Susan's forum - but time marches on. I've done it all, I've transitioned, I've had every surgery you can get, I'm married, I've gone stealth.

But, I was reading the comments on a TS article on HuffPo and I was just floored by remembering how much ignorance is out there. And so, I came here and started reading the forum again. Same song, different day - trouble with SOs, suicidal ideation, trouble passing, etc.
And so, I had to share my perspective about how to deal with the problem what's haunted all of you for your whole lives, just as it haunted me. My advice is non-traditional, but I really think it's the best path. This is tough love advice from someone that's gone through everything you're going through. 1. Work with your therapists. Something I heard constantly when I was as Op here was "There are no therapists in my town." "It won't help me." "I don't think I should have to jump through hoops." 

Here's the truth. Most of us have some serious damage from this psychologically. We're undersocialized, we have anger issues and we need therapy to move on. Beyond that, every bit of professional documentation you can get will help you with the SSA, getting a driver's licence, changing court records and the like. Get a therapist and really do the work.

2. Leave the community. Get the support here you need, and get out as soon as you can. There is a vampiric toll that the TG community takes on you. It's like reveling in old wounds.   I once tried dating an FTM, and what I quickly discovered was doubling up on the transgender drama led to a very negative, sad relationship. You are engulfed in drama and negativity every second you spend here - and you have your own battles to fight. Get healthy, and get out.  *I can see where this would be healthy to do but I also met a soulmate here that I will never turn my back on even if my life depended on it*

3. Get FFS It's expensive, it's quite painful. It's worth every penny. FFS is the difference between having a normal life where you can be employed and move on, and getting stuck in limbo. I paid Dr. Siegel in Boston about $70k for my face, and I am so thankful that I did. 

And, wow, was it painful. For a year it was, get a surgery, recover, get another surgery. It took a huge psychological toll on me - but it's also over. Looking back, I think FFS was more important to my mental well being than GRS.

4. Get a job So many of us revel in poverty and unemployment. And the economy has collapsed in recent years, which I suspect makes it even worse. But, there is life after transitioning. For myself, I was forced in my late 20s to start a career path I should have started when I was in my early 20s. The clock is ticking. You will have disadvantages, you should get started.

5. Go stealth Don't tell people about your past. Don't have RL transgender friends. Don't post articles about TS issues on FB, though you might feel strongly about it. Again, this is for your own sanity, for your own employment potential, and so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it? To be like other women? Moving to a new place is a great idea.

6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition. Generally speaking, the people that transition without families are far more successful than those with families, in my experience. It's drastic how much more successful you will be when you are unfettered by these complications. Maybe it's too late to do anything about this - but if you are reading this before transitioning, PLEASE take this advice. *wish I had figured out I couldn't just fight this all my life. Never realized it woud get worse until it forced me to deal with it. Now I have to consider crushing guilt and children that love me and need MY support*7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion or excuses.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the biggest one. Delusion and excuses go together with TG like peanut butter and jelly. There is an inevitable "Poor me," period when you transition. You will one day look back on your behavior as immature. The secret is, the people that are successful at this push through the hard choices and move on.

"I don't care if I pass. It's other people's problem, not mine."   *keep telling yourself that while unemployed*
"My voice skills are fine." *if you want to get clocked every time you open your mouth*
"I can stay in the closet forever." *and everyone will just think you are gay. Damn, I need to write that one down. Oh, I just did...*
"I'm too broke to afford a therapist." *But I can afford to be drastically unemployed,  and broken the rest of my life and spurned by society*
"I don't need electrolysis."  "Becasue a 5 oclock shadow is what everyone looks for in a woman"
"My family won't understand." Hell, I barely understand so how the F**K are they? Maybe it's not the fact that you are tranz taht they don't like you? Maybe it's just the last straw?

I haveheard all of these countless times, when these people were all deluding themselves. Your success is in your own hands. The government won't help you. You friends will only barely understand. Your medical providers will generally know less than you. You are the only person you can count on. Don't sabotage yourself by choosing to beleive things that are not true, and don't wallow in excuses.

Life exists after transition. This thing that's eating you alive right now will always be one of your greatest adventures, but it's not going to be your only one. Move through it. Some of us have the courage to push through, many of us are broken along the way. Your destiny is in your own hands. 


I personally love this list, and I think the only part where it really breaks down and becomes a bit of a problem is when you're a Trans who simply by no extent is passable as a woman, where they desperately need at least one FFS surgery to even imagine passing, especially on a career level. I think the thing that should be added when this is the case is "See if you can live in your natal role long enough to make at least $8,000." - it's basically what I'm doing now, though even without worrying about transitioning at the moment, there are so many handicaps in my life including complete loneliness, health issues, transportation issues, and homelessness issues that I simply can't seem to find one logical way out of. So far, the biggest thing I'm really able to do is start up a "erotic gallery" website made up of thousands of non-copyrighted pictures and artworks I've collected around the internet, charging people for a membership, but that's about it.

What I would give to have the government provide me with funded housing, food stamps, budgeted health insurance, and public transportation. Would be entirely all I need, would only use it as long as I had to. Problem is, funded housing is plain out for the dogs where I live, you get shot at just by riding by the neighborhoods! But even without that, having discounted health insurance, food stamps, and just even a place to live near a bus route would be killer for me.

Quote from: JessicaH on September 30, 2011, 04:24:57 PM
I'm not sure how any one could be upset by this post. There are some really good ideas in there a Crimsonsky clearly titled it "MY top 7...".   If what she wrote truely offends you, I consider putting a little more thought into it and maybe reread it. I think she points out some great things that are simply a matter of taking responsibility for yourself and not blaming others.  It also seems oddly reminiscent of other recent posts by post ops that get pounced on by those not even on HRT yet or just went full time.

I think if we want post ops to stay around we should at least respect the fact that they may be trying to give us some gems of wisdom from having completed the journey that we are on or just beginning. I will stop there but I want to highlight a few things from her post that I think people should ponder.

Her list didn't offend me at all. And I do agree they are personal guidlines than guidelines etched in stone for everyone.

I guess the line that caught my attention was this:

Quotethose that have had FFS are more successful than those of us that have not.

I didn't read that wrong and I disagree with that statement. Does it mean I don't like her for saying it? No. Not at all. I just don't agree with everything she stated.

Oh..and I am fulltime, HRT, and will be post op in two weeks. I will have the same convictions. Because someone disagrees with a post op does not necessarily mean that disagreement is invalid because they have not met criteria A and B.

After two weeks time, I hope people aren't just going to agree with me or will be afraid to counter my arguments just because I will be classified as post op! What fun is there in that? :)

Quote from: Laura91 on September 30, 2011, 02:52:01 PM
Ewwwww

Why the hell would I want to do that?

Kids are annoying as hell and having someone around to get on my nerves?

Pffft

No thanks.

Some of us would give anything to have that.

The darker hair photos are most recent, about a week old, and also, I kind of completely agree with the original post, I stand behind it, it is a good game plan.

My friend Annah, your direct response almost sounds like you felt accused! :-)

I took her statement as to say that the vast majority will need FFS to pass unless they do HRT very young. That is a very FAIR and VALID statement. I don't think it would be reasonable to think that she even romotely meant that EVERY LAST M2F will need FFS.

We all know that's not true but we all know that there are a LOT of M2F out there that will and do need, FFS to look female. Not to be pretty but just to to not get instantly clocked as M2F. It sucks and it's not fair but it's just reality. Some of us got lucky and need little or no FFS to pass. Most? Not so lucky. T & DHT just has a powerful affect on most people born with testicles.

your tattoo is missing in one of the darker hair photos.

Quote from: JessicaH on September 30, 2011, 05:11:08 PM
My friend Annah, your direct response almost sounds like you felt accused! :-)

I took her statement as to say that the vast majority will need FFS to pass unless they do HRT very young. That is a very FAIR and VALID statement. I don't think it would be reasonable to think that she even romotely meant that EVERY LAST M2F will need FFS.

We all know that's not true but we all know that there are a LOT of M2F out there that will and do need, FFS to look female. Not to be pretty but just to to not get instantly clocked as M2F. It sucks and it's not fair but it's just reality. Some of us got lucky and need little or no FFS to pass. Most? Not so lucky. T & DHT just has a powerful affect on most people born with testicles.

sorry if it sounded like that :)

Ive been struggling with the flu right now. I am not having fun LOL

No it isn't missing lol, just underneath the arm

and yeah I definitely think FFS can help everyone, even the most passible, but I am not saying run out and get it, its your personal choice.
Dr Spiegel is a great option I believe, although I am only 2 months post op, I cant wait for the jaw swelling to go down!

Quote from: mimpi on September 30, 2011, 11:07:44 AM
Have to say I find the original post unacceptable from a political, ideological and moral perspective.

Reminds me of a British politician's "Get on your bike and find a job" speech.

In the name of God how many people in this world have 70,000 available just like that? Most of the world lives on less than $2.00 a day. We are not all middle class North Americans.

I cannot stress how much I disagree with the opinions expressed.

So what U propose instead?

Jen61

Quote from: elle2011 on September 30, 2011, 05:44:49 PM
No it isn't missing lol, just underneath the arm

and yeah I definitely think FFS can help everyone, even the most passible, but I am not saying run out and get it, its your personal choice.
Dr Spiegel is a great option I believe, although I am only 2 months post op, I cant wait for the jaw swelling to go down!

yeah a swelled jaw is not fun!

Quote3. Get FFS It's expensive, it's quite painful. It's worth every penny.

Most FTMs would consider this a step backward. And most people who are transgender are not transsexual and don't transition, let alone have transsexual surgeries.

Perhaps you should have posted your list in the MTF Transsexual section.

Quote from: elle2011 on September 30, 2011, 04:59:02 PM
I admire trans woman who are openly trans and proud of it. I moved out of my home city as soon as I had ffs, I am pretty young 21.. and about to have srs in December, I'll include some photos of me here, anyhow I personally could not live openly being trans, I am completely stealth and I can't speak for others but it brings me great joy to be just another woman in society, I feel like it's opened the doors to so many opportunities that wouldn't be there before.

I honestly feel like transition is no different than other goals in life, if you really want it, and you work really hard for it, you will succeed.

I am 21 now, started hormones at 19, had a BA at 20, Full ffs two months ago with Dr Spiegel



Excuse my hair colors, I tend to change a lot! :)

By the way I am 5'3 and 110 lbs.

I agree with you! It is admirable. And I also believe if you work hard for it you will succed. Wow.... you are beautiful and way passable! I can only wish to someday be as passable as you! I am very happy  for you

Quote from: Lily on September 30, 2011, 04:58:30 PM
Some of us would give anything to have that.

Some of us would give  - everything  - to have that

I think the time for stealth has passed. I am not suggesting wearing a sign on your chest/breast anouncing it to the world, but I will never be a natal woman and I don't think I should try. Why should I hide the fact that I was born a boy. I never went to Paris Island for boot camp. I don't want to practice trans speak when I talk of my past. I am a father and I hope one day to be a mother. I was a husband and someday I want to be a wife. Going stealth just puts me into another box I don't quite fit into.


On another board I read a post from a woman who was stealth for twenty years. She was depressed because she felt like no one knew her. She didn't feel like she was living an authentic life. I am transitioning so I can be me, that means I have to be me and that is a transsexual woman.

Huggs

Emily

Quote from: tekla on September 30, 2011, 10:43:26 AM
so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it

Not for everyone, matter of fact 'normal' can get pretty creepy depending on where you are.

lol CONCUR! I pretty much agree with all numbered points but one . . .

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM
6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition. Generally speaking, the people that transition without families are far more successful than those with families, in my experience. It's drastic how much more successful you will be when you are unfettered by these complications. Maybe it's too late to do anything about this - but if you are reading this before transitioning, PLEASE take this advice.

. . . MY KIDS, girl 13 & boy just 12,  have turned out to be the Best Support System one could ever ask for (lol get a *nutcase mom* and divorce with custody if needs be! )

Whoa whoa whoa. OP, we are not all you. Normally I approve of arrogance wholeheartedly, but you are painting things with a broad brush and bordering on offensive. I don't need or want half of what you recommend. I had a kid as a teenager, homeless and in an abusive relationship, and there's really not any chance that I can go stealth now. My kid is awesome, but she'll likely always call me "mom." And I think I'm the poster boy for "pairing up and making families is not always healthy." Jesus.

I also have no family. My blood relations don't know me. That is NOT an asset. I welcome any community I can find, including the trans community. I can have my own separate identity without isolating myself from other trans people.

Also, I've never seen anyone "revel in poverty and unemployment," with the possible exception of certain poets and writers. Romanticizing poverty is not a transgender thing. In fact, most of the trans folks I've met are middle class. It's a lot easier to come out and transition when your culture and/or finances support it.

I don't want to start ranting. I'm glad you're happy. I'm glad you've moved on. But please stay out of here if you're going to be mean.

Quote from: kael on October 02, 2011, 04:36:59 AM
Whoa whoa whoa. OP, we are not all you. Normally I approve of arrogance wholeheartedly, but you are painting things with a broad brush and bordering on offensive. I don't need or want half of what you recommend. I had a kid as a teenager, homeless and in an abusive relationship, and there's really not any chance that I can go stealth now. My kid is awesome, but she'll likely always call me "mom." And I think I'm the poster boy for "pairing up and making families is not always healthy." Jesus.

I also have no family. My blood relations don't know me. That is NOT an asset. I welcome any community I can find, including the trans community. I can have my own separate identity without isolating myself from other trans people.

Also, I've never seen anyone "revel in poverty and unemployment," with the possible exception of certain poets and writers. Romanticizing poverty is not a transgender thing. In fact, most of the trans folks I've met are middle class. It's a lot easier to come out and transition when your culture and/or finances support it.

I don't want to start ranting. I'm glad you're happy. I'm glad you've moved on. But please stay out of here if you're going to be mean.

Well said.

Your comment on poverty and class is spot on. Apart from this being posted on a Transgender section when it is pushing a strictly binary Transsexual point of view, the middle class Western bourgeois values and ideology evident are extremely subjective and fail to acknowledge that not all of us live in similar prosperity nor hold similar values.

Furthermore, as previously mentioned, the vast majority of this world and that includes Trans people live in poverty in the developing world on less than two dollars a day. The original post is offensive and disrespectful to their situation and to those of us who live in the real world. I second the poster above's statement regarding being mean and would add cruel to it as well.

And: Yes, I have lived in the developing world.

This was obviously written by a white, middle class American and it shows.. And while it may have worked for her, I disagree with a bunch of it.. I think there are some that are a little too wrapped up in the ideal of a woman, rather than what/who women really are..

Oh hello there, I'm gonna reply to the original post, bit by bit, and comment on it.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM
Hey everybody,

There was a time of my life when I lived in the Susan's forum - but time marches on. I've done it all, I've transitioned, I've had every surgery you can get, I'm married, I've gone stealth.

But, I was reading the comments on a TS article on HuffPo and I was just floored by remembering how much ignorance is out there. And so, I came here and started reading the forum again. Same song, different day - trouble with SOs, suicidal ideation, trouble passing, etc.

And so, I had to share my perspective about how to deal with the problem what's haunted all of you for your whole lives, just as it haunted me. My advice is non-traditional, but I really think it's the best path. This is tough love advice from someone that's gone through everything you're going through.

You mean well, I can tell, and we do have quite a bit in common, but the thing is, you haven't gone through "everything" that I'm going through.
I am not you, and you are not me.
We're two completely different persons with completely different lives.
This'll become more clear as I go through the post.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM1. Work with your therapists. Something I heard constantly when I was as Op here was "There are no therapists in my town." "It won't help me." "I don't think I should have to jump through hoops." 

Here's the truth. Most of us have some serious damage from this psychologically. We're undersocialized, we have anger issues and we need therapy to move on. Beyond that, every bit of professional documentation you can get will help you with the SSA, getting a driver's licence, changing court records and the like. Get a therapist and really do the work.

I actually agree with this, to an extent.
It's near impossible (in my experience and opinion) to live with gender incongruence in this world full of prejudice and pressure to conform to gender roles without coming away battered. A qualified therapist can help you heal some of that damage the world's inflicted on you as well as be an invaluable support through the ordeal of transition itself, even "IF" the therapist was not a "gatekeeper" in any way.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM2. Leave the community. Get the support here you need, and get out as soon as you can. There is a vampiric toll that the TG community takes on you. It's like reveling in old wounds.

Eh.... yes and no.....
The trans* community can be a bit much with all it's infighting and constant reveling in the same old debates.
I've actually considered leaving Susan's, which is the only trans* specific group I "belong" to.
The reasons I've considered leaving aren't "reveling in old wounds" it's because of the infighting and petty nonsense. The whole "my way's better/righter than your way" BS which eventually makes me roll my eyes and log out because I just end up feeling pissed off at the people who come online and tell me, and others like me, directly or indirectly, that our identities are inferior, our transitions are inferior, that our struggles are BS and so on and so forth.
In other words, I consider leaving not because it reminds of how I was denied my identity and comfort in my own body in the past, but because there's people who deny me my identity here too, because I don't conform to "their" standard and I've had enough of being shamed and belittled for failing to conform to "standards" in my life.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AMI once tried dating an FTM, and what I quickly discovered was doubling up on the transgender drama led to a very negative, sad relationship. You are engulfed in drama and negativity every second you spend here - and you have your own battles to fight. Get healthy, and get out.

Excuse me, but dating "one" FTM person does not make you the expert on dating trans men.
Just as there are differences between men in general, there are differences between trans men.
As long as the people in the relationship are happy, it doesn't matter who's trans or what flavor of trans and so on.
What matters are the individuals and their interaction.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM3. Get FFS It's expensive, it's quite painful. It's worth every penny. FFS is the difference between having a normal life where you can be employed and move on, and getting stuck in limbo. I paid Dr. Siegel in Boston about $70k for my face, and I am so thankful that I did. 

And, wow, was it painful. For a year it was, get a surgery, recover, get another surgery. It took a huge psychological toll on me - but it's also over. Looking back, I think FFS was more important to my mental well being than GRS.

Oh hi... you do realize that there are trans men out there too?
I mean, you did just mention having dated one once.
Secondly, 70K american dollars is more than I could scrape together in a decade, so even if I wasn't a trans man with no plans of feminizing my face, the cost isn't just in the realm of "expensive" it's in the realm of "insanely expensive" and "unobtainable".

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM4. Get a job So many of us revel in poverty and unemployment. And the economy has collapsed in recent years, which I suspect makes it even worse. But, there is life after transitioning. For myself, I was forced in my late 20s to start a career path I should have started when I was in my early 20s. The clock is ticking. You will have disadvantages, you should get started.

I can't.
I can not work.
I have a chronic pain and fatigue problem.
I can not work.

This does not mean I'm "reveling" in poverty and/or unemployment. This means that I'm struggling to make enough money to feed my daughter.
A couple dinners in September consisted of tiny pieces of chopped up meat of the cheapest obtainable kind in rice and sauce. A risotto made from scraps, packed with artificial flavors and fats, just to make for something slightly filling, so I could eat "something", so we wouldn't starve.
And dinner was frequently the only thing I ate throughout the day, save for maybe a handful of raisins just to keep afloat.
I'd make coffee from an old pack of coffee-beans I had in the freezer for "emergencies" like this.
I spent every other day literally trembling in fatigue and pain which was driven to new heights in my lack of food.
(I since got my disability payment, so we can now afford to eat actual food... so we aren't in this level of trouble any more)

My financial situation is unstable. I don't know whether or when I'll find myself in that situation again. Where I'm too skint to eat.
I considered selling what few things I have I could consider a luxury. This old laptop, books, dvds, my camera, the stacks of old toys of my daughters. I'm still considering selling these things to try and build up some small buffer, so I won't find myself as totally skint again.

It's is in no way enjoyable to be here, in this situation.
It's exhausting and terrifying and belittling.
And I can't just "get a job", to suggest so is a little cruel.

I know that there are others out there who're dealing with similar situations. People who for some reason or another literally can not work.
It's not because they're enjoying poverty, it's because they can not work.

Prior to my diagnosis I got a lot of the "lazy" comments and the offerings of contacts, it all had the "get a job" as it's core.
And I'd cave, and I'd get jobs, and I would be in so much pain I couldn't do my job, and I'd get fired or I'd quit within a few weeks as I couldn't possible actually do the job.

Getting a job is not always an option, and poverty is nothing to revel in.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM5. Go stealth Don't tell people about your past. Don't have RL transgender friends. Don't post articles about TS issues on FB, though you might feel strongly about it. Again, this is for your own sanity, for your own employment potential, and so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it? To be like other women? Moving to a new place is a great idea.

.... I don't agree with this!

See, there's a couple reasons.
1. There's the suggestion that trans women, or women who aren't "stealth" are less "normal" as other women.
One of the things that we (trans people in Iceland) are trying to get other people to understand is that trans women are women, regardless of where they are in transition. They are and always have been girls/women. They aren't "becoming" women. (And the same for men. And we're trying to also cover the non-binaries too.)
Whenever I get told, directly or indirectly, by trans people, that my associating myself in any way with the word "trans" somehow makes me less of a man I find myself rather irritated. It indicates to me that they believe that "trans" men and women are less men and women than "cis" men and women (internalized cissexism). Either that or they really mean well and batter me with the same cissexist hostility as I'm likely to face in society to encourage me to conform to society's norms so that society won't do it to me too...
Either way, it basically boils down to a trans person telling a trans person that if they don't pretend they were never trans that they won't ever be accepted by anyone, ever, anywhere.

2. I don't see how abandoning friends and refusing to speak out on issues is going to help my mental health.
I mean... by speaking out on issues can and will help me make the world better for those that come after me and will also my the world better for me (if we presume I'm stealthed; "if" I'm ever outed, or if I ever choose to out myself) by making the prejudice and hostility I face lesser for it.
At the same time, biting my tongue, pretending not to care, pretending it doesn't concern me or affect me when I witness prejudice and hostility and ignorance and other negative things regarding trans people and trans issues will make me feel worse than speaking up. Because I know that by my silence, let alone cooperation (how far will you go to avoid being outed? Will you laugh when they laugh?), I am contributing to the suffering of other people and creating a tighter noose for myself "should" I ever be outed which in turn would make stealth more and more important as well as more and more stressful.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition. Generally speaking, the people that transition without families are far more successful than those with families, in my experience. It's drastic how much more successful you will be when you are unfettered by these complications. Maybe it's too late to do anything about this - but if you are reading this before transitioning, PLEASE take this advice.

My husband knows and has always known that I have gender issues.
My daughter is gorgeous.
My family is the most wonderful support network I have.

They aren't "complications" that "fetter" me.
I know that means I'm lucky, or even well beyond lucky.
They are AMAZING!

But the reason I'm pointing this out is to point out that it's possible to meet the "right" person, who'll stand by you through transition and love you as "who" you are even if you're changing the packaging to fit.
It won't be 100% without problems, but it's quite possible.

So, it's not a matter of either having problems or being alone, it's a matter of finding a person who you can be honest with and open with and will accept you and stand by you.... which can be done...
You aren't necessarily fettered by complications if you have a family.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion or excuses.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the biggest one. Delusion and excuses go together with TG like peanut butter and jelly. There is an inevitable "Poor me," period when you transition. You will one day look back on your behavior as immature. The secret is, the people that are successful at this push through the hard choices and move on.

I don't know if I agree with this.
I mean, yes, there's a lot of hyperfocus, overcompensation, and excuses, but I don't know about "delusions".
Delusion is a word with a specific definition. It means holding an overwhelming conviction in something even if there is evidence to the contrary.
For example, asserting as a fact that the earth is flat and the sun orbits the earth, believing it with all the conviction in the world, even if one's being shown all the evidence that we've accumulated to the contrary.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM"I don't care if I pass. It's other people's problem, not mine."

And what if this is true? If it's true it can't be a delusion.
I do care about my appearance, and I do enjoy being read as the man I am, but my being a man is not dependent on passing and my transition is for me, not for them. People reading me wrong, or slipping up pronouns, and so on, they don't really bother me. In fact, they've bothered me less and less as my transition's progressed.
I actually don't need the outside verification any more and so I've found I've stopped fussing over little things like hand gestures or facial gestures or body posture and so on that used to make me worry I would get "caught" being "girly"... I honestly don't care.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM"My voice skills are fine."

Honestly, I've heard people fussing over their voice, being terrified it's not "okay" more than I've heard this.
Funnily enough, I've heard it more from people with voices that are far lighter and far more feminine than mine ever was pre-T.
It swings both ways.
This "can" also be true and therefore doesn't qualify as a delusion.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM"I can stay in the closet forever."

Never seen anyone say any such thing!

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM"I'm too broke to afford a therapist."

... Like I pointed out above, this can be true and therefore not a delusion....
If you're trying to scrape together 2 dollars to buy one quart of milk, you do not have money for a therapist!
A person can quite easily be "too broke" to afford a therapist!
I practically bankrupted myself to pay for mine!
I had to beg and borrow and just barely managed it!
If I had had just one little bill come up and get in my way I would have been more than "too broke" to afford a "therapist" I would have been too broke to afford ANYTHING!

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM"I don't need electrolysis."

Not everyone does.
I don't, and I'm trans. ;)

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM"My family won't understand."

... How's this a delusion?
If you're not in a position where you can be free from your family (underage, for example) and you know they won't understand (strictly religious gay-bashers openly calling trans people names when they're on telly) then this is a reasonable thing to say.
People in this position seek out trans communities for support and love and a chance to be themselves, if only for just a few minutes.
It isn't nice to tell 'em they're delusional, or making excuses.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AMI have all of these countless times, when these people were all deluding themselves. Your success is in your own hands. The government won't help you. You friends will only barely understand. Your medical providers will generally know less than you. You are the only person you can count on. Don't sabotage yourself by choosing to beleive things that are not true, and don't wallow in excuses.

At the same time, you can't expect miracles!

If you're too skint to afford a single appointment with the therapist, then money's where you should start, and that's the problem to deal with.
If family's the problem, then that's where you start, etc, etc, etc...

My friends didn't all understand that well, but they were supportive and wonderful.
My family didn't all understand that well, but they were supportive and wonderful.
The goverment DID help me.
My medical providers didn't know everything I did, but they were happy to listen!

Yes, you've got to put in the work and make your transition happen.
You've got to work even harder to get the transition that's "right" for you, what with all the trans people telling you how to do it and the medical providers having limited information.

THERE IS NO "ONE SIZE FITS ALL" FOR TRANSITION!
But if you're willing to put in the work, then you can forge your own path and find your own happiness.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AMLife exists after transition. This thing that's eating you alive right now will always be one of your greatest adventures, but it's not going to be your only one. Move through it. Some of us have the courage to push through, many of us are broken along the way. Your destiny is in your own hands. 


This right here... this I agree with.
There is life after transition!
Don't forget it.
Don't define yourself as your transition.
Find things "now" that will be there after.
Don't find yourself waking up and going "now what?" when your transition is complete.
Don't find yourself wondering who you are now that you aren't "trans" any more.
Don't let transition eat you alive.

I also have problem with point 2 about getting out of the community once you have transitioned. One of the greatest parts about realizing I am transgender is our community. I know it is hard to see a lot of negativity all the time, but we have valuable experience to pass on to those younger in transition than ourselves. I have gained imense pleasure helping others, inspiring young leaders to change our world not run and hide from it. I spent 30 years hiding from the world and I am done with that kind of life. The world can love me or hate me, but they will know me!

Huggs

Em

Hi Emily Ray,
Thank you so much for your comments and conviction. Being a 'retread' here; I'm now so humbly thankful to those that have stayed the distance and beyond. I was here when Susan's was a young and inspiring site, full of the right information at the time. At that time, there wasn't that many people transitioning, so actual testimonies were few and far between
Now the site is so richly endowed with factual information and experience, it has spurred me onwards to my final glory. I can never be more thankful for that, and to special people like yourself. Thank you.
Be safe, well and happy
Lotsa luv
Catherine

I think people need to worry less about fitting in, and work harder at standing out.  But perhaps that's just me.

Life exists after transition.
In fact, it exists during transition too, and it seems to me (based only on years of anecdotal evidence) that the people who deal with it as part of their life, and not the only focus, do better at it.

Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion
Hell, if it wasn't for delusion (and it's loving twin: denial), most people couldn't - wouldn't - get out of bed in the morning.  And one person's delusion is another person's meaning of life.

So many of us revel in poverty
In the same way that only the living think that death is romantic, only those with money find poverty to be something you can 'revel' in.  It's the worst, most soul-grinding existence you can have, as Min pointed out.


Furthermore, as previously mentioned, the vast majority of this world and that includes Trans people live in poverty in the developing world on less than two dollars a day. The original post is offensive and disrespectful to their situation and to those of us who live in the real world. I second the poster above's statement regarding being mean and would add cruel to it as well.
To be fair, none of those people are reading posts on transgender web sites on the web.  I mean there are a lot of 'real worlds' out there.  Where for some $8K is an almost magically unobtainable sum of money, for others, its' a week in Vegas (or less). 

Quote7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion or excuses.

You mean, like the "delusion" that I'm really male inside, even though nobody else can see it because there's no empirical evidence to support my claim?

Quote7There is an inevitable "Poor me," period when you transition. You will one day look back on your behavior as immature.

I went through a lot of feelings right after my final coming-out and while I was early in transition. Some of it was self-pity. I am not ashamed of that, nor do I think it was immature. Not so far, because what I was going through was hard and risky and f***ing scary as hell. I understand what I was going through, and I understand how scared I was. I don't condemn myself for feeling some self-pity, and I doubt that I'll beat myself up for it at some later date.

You've clearly labeled your OP as your own perspective, and that's fair enough. These are the rules that worked for you. But I feel that you're so caught up in your "voice of authority" mode that you don't see how much generalizing/universalizing you are doing, and you don't see some dangerous (or at least insulting) hidden assumptions.

For example, you put this topic into the general Transgender section when it's clearly about transsexuality. You say you've "done it all," as if there were a script to follow. There isn't. You insist on FFS and assume that our goal is to be "like other women," but you're in a general forum, not an MTF forum; it's as if you think FTMs don't even exist, despite your claim that you dated one once. (Not to mention that some trans women proudly identify as TRANS women, and I suspect that this is the very thing you are warning against.) You say you've had "every surgery you can get," but I'm willing to bet that you haven't had hysto, meta, or phallo. And probably not a double mastectomy.

Yes, there are a few hidden assumptions and generalizations here that I have a problem with.

Furthermore, you seem to assume that the community exists only to support those who are early in the process, but you don't appear to acknowledge that someone has to stick around and mentor those people, so someone has to stay in the community--not for their own support but to give back. If that machine breaks down, we break down. We already have a few too many people leaving the community in many cities; there aren't enough non-stealth folks who are willing to run the support groups in some areas. And the newbies suffer because of it. Some people argue that the whole community is fractured because of this mass exodus into stealth.

Finally, #6 really borders on the cruel because so many of us struggle with family. You tell people that if they are TS, they shouldn't "have a family before [they] start transition." I assume that you mean "don't get married and have kids." How many TS people live in denial or ignorance before they figure out who they are--AFTER they have gotten into long-term relationships and maybe had a child or three? Do you think they go into those situations with their eyes fully open, and say to themselves, "Well, I am a transsexual, and in eight or ten years I'm going to hit my limit and need to transition. I guess I had better not get married, and children are right out!" For myself, I would not give up the twenty years I spent with my partner. I know I hurt him--and he hurt me--but we are both recovering, and he, too, has a twenty-year relationship to look back on with pleasure and perhaps even pride. I'm glad I did it. And many trans folks do find strength in their families, especially their children.

Finally, you claim that the more "successful" of us do not start a family. Define "successful," please. Oh, are you assuming we know what you mean? Well, that's a problem, isn't it?

And there are other objections that other people have brought up.

I appreciate your intentions. I really do. But I think that the execution leaves a little something to be desired. So, for one thing, I'm moving this thread to the transsexual forum, specifically the MTF section because it clearly isn't aimed at FTMs. And for another, I hope you'll take my criticism as constructive. I'm not being kind, nor am I being brutal. I'm just giving you my honest perspective.

I am very new to the community but I have lurked for quite a while, and it seems like these Top 7 Tips contribute to the problems the OP is trying to address, instead of working to solve them.

seems like these Top 7 Tips contribute to the problems the OP is trying to address

Kinda like: Hi, I'm here from the government and I'm here to help.

Some people just want to transition to their correct sex and get on with their lives.  For them, this advice seems very good.  The reaction here is just further evidence that having the same condition and goals that I happen to have is not a welcome state of being here, which is really sad to me.

If you want to stand out, be something different, challenge convention, that's fine, go for it, but this advice was surely not meant for you.

Hi, Crimsonsky,

I did not take offense in your posting, quiet the contrary I am greatful you share your views and experiences.Below is how I would have posted:

1. Work with your therapists.
I recommend therapy for those who have psychological problems of any kind, seems to help most of the times. I have go to several therapists for marital problems. Find a few gold nuggets in the process, but I cannot see myself talking to them about my GID as my GID is not dysphonic to me

2. Leave the community.
I have not yet need help from the community. I have seen very little fact-based postings, but rather a lot of extremist rhetoric. I  do enjoy and I appreciate the stories shared. Some stories amuse me, some are so nutty they make me laugh. It seems we are over populated by anarchists and communists, not really my kind, better ignored.

3. Get FFS
I am not gorgeous like some of the model-like dudettes but my face is fem enough so as to pass with no makeup; however I am going to have a face rejuv procedure one of this days.  My health insurance will pay the SRS when I decide to go for it.

4. Get a job
I will say: plan early, work hard, get an education anyway you can, do not get trap in the rot of making ends-meet with low paying jobs and social hands outs.

5. Go stealth
My GID is neither a source or pride nor a source of shame. Do not hide or else live with the fear of being discover.

6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition.
The best thing ever happen to me was my children. I also have 10 years of happy married memories. No regrets, I will do it again.

7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in excuses or regrets
Something's were my fault, a few somebodies fault, others nobody's fault. No wrong decisions were made, at the time all seem good decisions.

Like Oldd Blue-eye said it: "regrets I have a few but then again to few to mention....I did it my way"

Jen61

min thanks for attacking this head on this vrap is getting old
jessi

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM

1. Work with your therapists. Something I heard constantly when I was as Op here was "There are no therapists in my town." "It won't help me." "I don't think I should have to jump through hoops." 

Here's the truth. Most of us have some serious damage from this psychologically. We're undersocialized, we have anger issues and we need therapy to move on. Beyond that, every bit of professional documentation you can get will help you with the SSA, getting a driver's licence, changing court records and the like. Get a therapist and really do the work.

Yes, this is often helpful.

Quote2. Leave the community. Get the support here you need, and get out as soon as you can. There is a vampiric toll that the TG community takes on you. It's like reveling in old wounds.

Not always. Why not just avoid or ignore the psychic vampires? If your support group is just a big depressing sob-fest, then leave. Personally, this is why I don't go to support groups. Support groups are for people who need a lot of support.. I don't need a lot of support, I have plenty of it already, and the people who don't support me, I don't have anything to do with. I will always offer my support to the community, as I'm generally a positive person and I know that helps people.

QuoteI once tried dating an FTM, and what I quickly discovered was doubling up on the transgender drama led to a very negative, sad relationship. You are engulfed in drama and negativity every second you spend here - and you have your own battles to fight. Get healthy, and get out.

Wow. In my experience, FtMs are more balanced than MtFs. Just about every FtM I've met is an awesome person. you can't generalize an entire group based on the personality of one person. That's like hating people of a certain ethnic group just because one of them broke into your car once.

Quote3. Get FFS It's expensive, it's quite painful. It's worth every penny. FFS is the difference between having a normal life where you can be employed and move on, and getting stuck in limbo. I paid Dr. Siegel in Boston about $70k for my face, and I am so thankful that I did. 

And, wow, was it painful. For a year it was, get a surgery, recover, get another surgery. It took a huge psychological toll on me - but it's also over. Looking back, I think FFS was more important to my mental well being than GRS.

For some people, it is definitely more important than SRS. I wouldn't have spent $70k on it though. And some people don't need it at all.

Quote4. Get a job So many of us revel in poverty and unemployment. And the economy has collapsed in recent years, which I suspect makes it even worse. But, there is life after transitioning. For myself, I was forced in my late 20s to start a career path I should have started when I was in my early 20s. The clock is ticking. You will have disadvantages, you should get started.

A good idea to have a job, but there's a recession on, you know. Jobs aren't very plentiful. I have a good job that pays me well, but not everyone can find a job right now. Having said that, if a person is just sitting on their butt because they're lazy, then shame on them.

Quote5. Go stealth Don't tell people about your past. Don't have RL transgender friends. Don't post articles about TS issues on FB, though you might feel strongly about it. Again, this is for your own sanity, for your own employment potential, and so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it? To be like other women? Moving to a new place is a great idea.

Half true. Don't advertise the fact that you're trans if you don't want to, but don't hop into another closet if you don't have to. Remember that the rights we have and are being given are the result of people putting themselves out there and fighting and advocating for them. You can't erase your past, no matter how badly you want to. People WILL be able to dig up your past... your life experiences are what makes you who you are today. Acknowledge your past, but concentrate on who you are NOW, the present and the future.

Quote6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition. Generally speaking, the people that transition without families are far more successful than those with families, in my experience. It's drastic how much more successful you will be when you are unfettered by these complications. Maybe it's too late to do anything about this - but if you are reading this before transitioning, PLEASE take this advice.

Too late. But my daughter is the most supportive person in my whole family, so it worked out well. Having said that, those of you who are young... before you hit the hormones too heavily, freeze your sperm, and then rest easy knowing you can always have a biological child.

Quote7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion or excuses.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the biggest one. Delusion and excuses go together with TG like peanut butter and jelly. There is an inevitable "Poor me," period when you transition. You will one day look back on your behavior as immature. The secret is, the people that are successful at this push through the hard choices and move on.

"I don't care if I pass. It's other people's problem, not mine."
"My voice skills are fine."
"I can stay in the closet forever."
"I'm too broke to afford a therapist."
"I don't need electrolysis."
"My family won't understand."

I have all of these countless times, when these people were all deluding themselves. Your success is in your own hands. The government won't help you. You friends will only barely understand. Your medical providers will generally know less than you. You are the only person you can count on. Don't sabotage yourself by choosing to beleive things that are not true, and don't wallow in excuses.

I mainly agree with these.

1. Not passing will make your life more difficult if you're trying to fit in, but if the person doesn't give a crap, then more power to them.

2. If the goal is trying to present oneself as a woman, voice is THE most important thing to work on.

3. This is why I disagree with your post above. You said go completely stealth.. this is being in a different closet than the one we were in, but still a closet. Make peace with the past and move on, but don't forget where you came from.

4. Not everybody needs a therapist, but most people should try and at least have a meeting or two with one, and everyone needs to if they want letters for SRS. I love my therapist.

5. Electrolysis/Laser is necessary if passing as a woman is the goal.

QuoteLife exists after transition. This thing that's eating you alive right now will always be one of your greatest adventures, but it's not going to be your only one. Move through it. Some of us have the courage to push through, many of us are broken along the way. Your destiny is in your own hands.

Yep. :-)

Kia Ora,

::) Well.......................................................................



1.Work with your therapists.... Yes it makes sense

2. Leave the community...If you feel the need

3. Get FFS ...Yes if after around 18 months of HRT if you still feel uncomfortable with your appearance [and can afford to] by all means do so [But be careful you don't become a 'scalpel junkie'-some trans-people tend to suffer from internalised trans-phobia-they would benefit more from psychiatric help[counselling]  not more surgery

4. Get a job A no brainer...But easier said than done for some

5. Go stealth... If it make you feel safe...However being 'semi-stealth give one room to breath =less claustrophobic living environment

6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition. ...For the young trans it makes sense, "prevention is better than cure" Unless that is your partner [pre your transition] is 100% comfortable/supportive

7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion or excuses.... "Work with your therapist"

Metta Zenda :)

1: Agree
2: Agree, Agree, Agree
3: Not so much. Not everyone needs FFS
4: Totally
5: I mostly agree
6: Your Mileage May Vary. I am transitioning with my family, and it's going with FLYING COLORS. Actually, I doubt I'd be half as successful without my family.
7: It's true, and I agree with the sentiment.

Overall, I agree with you.

  I agree with the poster. This thread made me step back and actually think of my overall plans for after transition, i'm so glad i read this.  ;D

The original post may not be the blueprint for everyone, but it's clearly made people think.

I've noticed that there are a lot of posts disagreeing with the OP that say roughly the same thing. I understand that some of us have been riled up by the pathway presented (especially as our pathways are so deeply connected to our deepest identities), and wish to affirm our positions. I'm refraining because, at this point on page 3, the OP might be feeling an ever-suffocating wave of hostility. Her intention was to help.

Smiles  :),

Blake

Blake we all understand her attention was to help her choice of words sucks calling it tough love implies that were all ignorant and she is going to be the one to correct us i also see where she said my path meaning her path to transition this too me means the same as in her opinion the problem with this post is this is a support site as well as an info site and making people feel excluded is not supportive nor conductive to good conversation Susan's has always been a supportive site only recently have we begun to see this kind total i dint give a .... about any other persons feelings attitude and i like many others are tired of it.
Jessi

Quote from: blake on October 03, 2011, 03:09:28 PM
The original post may not be the blueprint for everyone, but it's clearly made people think.

I've noticed that there are a lot of posts disagreeing with the OP that say roughly the same thing. I understand that some of us have been riled up by the pathway presented (especially as our pathways are so deeply connected to our deepest identities), and wish to affirm our positions. I'm refraining because, at this point on page 3, the OP might be feeling an ever-suffocating wave of hostility. Her intention was to help.

Smiles  :),

Blake

My issues is that she seems to be saying 'It's my way or the highway'.. It's not my path for sure..

I have to agree with the OP. When did being trans become a lifestyle, much less an alternative one? No thanks, I'd like to transition, then put it behind me like I would a healed illness and get on with life.

Quote from: pretty on October 04, 2011, 02:44:56 AM
I have to agree with the OP. When did being trans become a lifestyle, much less an alternative one? No thanks, I'd like to transition, then put it behind me like I would a healed illness and get on with life.

+1

I had a bunch of friends get on me for not attending the trans march(who later deleted me on fb). I was like, "Going to a march? What will that solve?" and they got upset at me for simply expressing my opinion. Not saying there needs to be community, for some people they need it. But I didn't want to go and I had to work. I didn't even attend PRIDE.... Living in SF, I was sick of being bombarded with the "lifestyle" and "culture". I am an individual, not part of a collective.

There was also this other incident where I criticized them for putting, "VOTE FOR CHAZ BONO" having lesbian parents, I was bombarded with "support so and so because they are LGBT" growing up. I said straight out, "I DON'T CARE"

I am not gonna support someone because they are LGBT...I am gonna support them for doing what I like and simply being trans or anything for that matter isn't grounds for support. I don't care much for Chaz Bono's "entertainment"...But hey, good for him being his true self. He wasn't very good on "DWTS"... I voted for someone else. Just like I don't like every gay activist or lesbian out there..

As for the rest...no comment. I don't feel I am in the position to comment, because I kinda just live my life. But the OP did put a lot of thoughts into backing up her opinions.

So bravissimo for that!

Quote from: Jen-Jen on October 01, 2011, 04:12:04 AM
  I agree with you! It is admirable. And I also believe if you work hard for it you will succeed. Wow.... you are beautiful and way passable! I can only wish to someday be as passable as you! I am very happy  for you

Jen-Jen I like your AVATAR, do u have more where'd you get it / them from?

I believe the worst thing one can do for a successful transition is spend all one's time on websites talking and arguing it's finer points; We are here to change the world's CLOSED MINDSET rather than let it DEFINE & RESTRICT, the other way around . . .

and THEY are not here for the most part it's mostly only US!

TG's in one form or another have been around since time immemorial, check especially the Old / New Testament (http://www.deltaxchange.com/hosting/showthread.php?p=258#post258) if not agreed, and only in the fact that we're all DIFFERENT / UNIQUE - unlike the clearly understood but common meaning of the term "gay" - are we truly special, human and thus worthwhile. What's right for one of us is another NOT. "Beautiful girls" are a dime a dozen nowadays and says little outside of a sense of "personal happiness" more or less fulfilled . . .

We have a perfect right to be here and it's what we do with it that makes the real difference!

(ps added: While lesbian, gay, transgendered has always, up to this point at least, been an insignificant minority making 'lil difference in "the world at large" did it ever occur to you that We could indeed be A Result, "Natures infinitely adaptive wise way" of dealing with what It sees as the greater problem in "society", the stupidly too prolific population at large? )

Know the true beauty in having your own kids? They force you, in spite of all the ways one otherwise "feels", to keep it "real & honest" and not totally deny your ORIGINS always being "dad" to them!

When did being trans become a lifestyle, much less an alternative one?

Umm, long before you showed up to claim the title.  It is for some people, and for other trans person it isn't.  I sure would rather have a lifestyle than a miserable existence if that's the choice. 

... My continuing to associate with the word trans and other trans persons and to be active in working towards equal rights and recognition of trans persons as the gender they consider themselves as opposed to defining them (or anyone for that matter) by the genitals they were born with does not make "trans" my "lifestyle"!

Nor does it make me any less a man!

It's simply doing what I feel is right, for me.

Stop putting me, and others, down for not doing things your way.

I don't have time right now for the whole thread but I'm gonna just go ahead and throw out one point:

I can't simply arbitrarily decide not to be broke. If I could have, I certainly would not be "reveling" in it.

Regarding trans identification being a "lifestyle" or being "part of a collective," I feel an obligation. I hesitated to come out of the closet, partly because I didn't want to be defined by this (I don't like thinking about the same issue all the time), and partly because of pure fear. I would not have had so much fear, and might've been able to come out ten years ago, if somebody, anybody else was out in my life.

I thought I was the only FTM on the planet, and only had a vague idea that MTF individuals existed. That isn't fair. I hope that my being visibly out lets some kid somewhere know that he or she is not alone. I hope that my being willing to go to marches and vote in elections gets people to have the arguments that might lead to changes in the public consciousness. I can't handle the idea that transitioning could ever be this hard for anyone else.

What good is all this suffering, if the change it creates only benefits me?

This isn't really tough love as much as it is a classist, ableist, borderline transphobic rant.

Quote from: tekla on September 30, 2011, 10:43:26 AM
so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it

Not for everyone, matter of fact 'normal' can get pretty creepy depending on where you are.

"I was always fascinated by people who are considered completely normal, because I find them the weirdest of all"  - Johnny Depp

" Be careful quoting people's opinions as statements. 90% of statements made by people are really just their opinions." - Jenny B Good

nuff said

Respect,

Jen

Quote from: tekla on October 04, 2011, 05:36:47 AM
It is for some people, and for other trans person it isn't.  I sure would rather have a lifestyle than a miserable existence if that's the choice.

If there seems to be a choice then lifestyle is the one to go for.  Initially.  It's when there's no choice that full transition is necessary, people who know, know in their very Being, there's been revelations, such epiphanies of who we actually are.
---
The other part to this post (unrelated to the subject) I've sent to tekla via PM instead.

Quote from: tekla on October 04, 2011, 05:36:47 AM
When did being trans become a lifestyle, much less an alternative one?

Umm, long before you showed up to claim the title.  It is for some people, and for other trans person it isn't.  I sure would rather have a lifestyle than a miserable existence if that's the choice.

I absolutely hate the term lifestyle when use to refer to the actions of people with GID.

Life style was used in court against me- in a custody/divorce case- by my ex-wife lawyer. I was so F..... incensed that I ask the Judge to speak, the judge grant me my wish, and I said: "Judge, your honor,  please let me tell you my life style: "since THE MOTHER ABANDONE US  SEVERAL YEARS AGO: I get up at 5:30 AM every day to make up breakfast for my six children, I see them off to school, then I work a full time job, and 3 days a week a work a second part time job. I do laundry, cook, and homeworks. I do doctors appointments, go to Church, go to the gym, clean house, etc, all by myself. I attend their school extracurricular activities, and still mange to spend all my free time with them. I do not go to bars, or clubs, or anything. My life is devoted to my kids and work, I do all this because it is my duty as a father and because I love them to pieces. DOING THE RIGHT THING, THAT IS MY LIFESTYLE, BEING A FEMALE IN A BIOLOGICAL MALE BODY IS NOT MY CHOICE."

Jen61

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM
And so, I had to share my perspective about how to deal with the problem what's haunted all of you for your whole lives, just as it haunted me. My advice is non-traditional, but I really think it's the best path. This is tough love advice from someone that's gone through everything you're going through. 


I still don't understand all the hyper negative responses. She simply said: Here are some common problems I see and I think you will be better off if you follow my suggestions.  We are all so different so there is no "one way" to do this, for ANY of us but that shouldn't preclude people reflecting on the path they successfully took and sharing it with others.

Bri, I want to say, "thanks for taking the time to write your post and share with others that are on this journey."  I didn't agree with every letter of it but I thought it had some really good points that are valid for a LOT of people. Sure, it would have been better had you not erantly put it in the general TS section instead of the MTF section but it was pretty obvious that it wasn't directed at FTMs so they should relax a little bit on that.  By the way Bri, I gave you a reputation bump a few days ago but someone removed it...

Quote from: JessicaH on October 06, 2011, 10:37:35 AMSure, it would have been better had you not erantly put it in the general TS section instead of the MTF section but it was pretty obvious that it wasn't directed at FTMs so they should relax a little bit on that. 

First of all, it wasn't at all obvious to me that it wasn't aimed at FTMs until I started seeing FFS (which I figured was just a glitch that she would clear up later) and, after that, assumptions that we all want to be "normal" women. So many people outside of the community assume that you can only go one direction that I am not too pleased when people inside the community say "transsexual" and clearly mean "MTF." Sorry, but I have encountered this a lot from trans women, and it makes me seem invisible in the larger transsexual community, one place where I should be uniquely visible.

I registered my objections in my last post in this thread. If you read it and you still don't understand why I was irritated, then I guess we will have to "agree to disagree" and leave it at that.

Oh, and this was not in the general TS section; it was in the general TG section (I think I have already pointed this out twice, but here I am doing it again). That type of assumption pretty much conflates TG with TS; when you add the other assumption/implication that all TS are MTFs, some people's feathers are going to get ruffled.

I did acknowledge her good intentions, but I felt that I had to register my perceptions.

As with others, I don't agree with every tip given, but I appreciate that there is some very good advice provided. I also applaud the thought given to the topic and the nonconfrontational presentation. I'm pleased that everyone responded in a polite manner. That's the way to have meaningful discourse.

Bravo Zulu.

Robyn

in my opinion this topic has run its course i sure wish Brie would have responded to some of the concerns raised she may have been in a hurry when she typed it and didn't think her choice of words threw i dint know as she never returned to the thread after starting for all we know she chucked a grenade into the forum just to see how badly we would go after each other for the amusement of herself and her friends sorry my cop distrust of peoples intentions is showing again. anyrates this is my last post on this thread so again Brie if your intentions were sincere thanks for your input but no thanks i will remain with the community that never labled me a freak even when i was labling myself as one and i have to much respect for the ftm to exclude them from any conversation some of them arch and min come to mind immediately are some of the brightest people i have met on here and there are others as well
Jessi

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 04, 2011, 03:43:31 AM
+1

I had a bunch of friends get on me for not attending the trans march(who later deleted me on fb). I was like, "Going to a march? What will that solve?" and they got upset at me for simply expressing my opinion. Not saying there needs to be community, for some people they need it. But I didn't want to go and I had to work. I didn't even attend PRIDE.... Living in SF, I was sick of being bombarded with the "lifestyle" and "culture". I am an individual, not part of a collective.

There was also this other incident where I criticized them for putting, "VOTE FOR CHAZ BONO" having lesbian parents, I was bombarded with "support so and so because they are LGBT" growing up. I said straight out, "I DON'T CARE"

I am not gonna support someone because they are LGBT...I am gonna support them for doing what I like and simply being trans or anything for that matter isn't grounds for support. I don't care much for Chaz Bono's "entertainment"...But hey, good for him being his true self. He wasn't very good on "DWTS"... I voted for someone else. Just like I don't like every gay activist or lesbian out there..

As for the rest...no comment. I don't feel I am in the position to comment, because I kinda just live my life. But the OP did put a lot of thoughts into backing up her opinions.

So bravissimo for that!

sigh, thank god im not the only one that has this opinion about being ts. ive been full time for 6 months and loving every minute of it. Going to clubs and parties and having gg friends and dating normal strait guys. I pass extremely well and have assimillated remarkably. however, even tho im not done with my transition yet ( surgery next year sometime) im starting to realize that i might lose some of the friends ive gained through this experience. Some people i know instead of blossoming have actually gone the other way, only leaving the house in boy mode even after name and gender marker changes and going to bars and restaraunt that cater to gay freindly clients and customers. I know that passing has something to do with this but i cant allow them to drag me down because they feel like they are not accepted. I hate saying stuff like this cu it really sounds cruel but im just being honest. my entire life I didnt feel like i was a trans person in a boys body, i was a girl, so why would i want to live the rest of my life accknowladging being trans. I grew up wanting to be female, not ts, so that what i am and eventually and unfortunately some of my friends may feel they have to close the door on me and i cannot be responsible for that. after i am completely and totally female, i will start distancing myself from the community in person. I have decided that i will always be on ts forums like this one and others but in a supportive capacity. good topic :)

Quote from: angelfaced on October 06, 2011, 03:38:35 PM
sigh, thank god im not the only one that has this opinion about being ts. ive been full time for 6 months and loving every minute of it. Going to clubs and parties and having gg friends and dating normal strait guys. I pass extremely well and have assimillated remarkably. however, even tho im not done with my transition yet ( surgery next year sometime) im starting to realize that i might lose some of the friends ive gained through this experience. Some people i know instead of blossoming have actually gone the other way, only leaving the house in boy mode even after name and gender marker changes and going to bars and restaraunt that cater to gay freindly clients and customers. I know that passing has something to do with this but i cant allow them to drag me down because they feel like they are not accepted. I hate saying stuff like this cu it really sounds cruel but im just being honest. my entire life I didnt feel like i was a trans person in a boys body, i was a girl, so why would i want to live the rest of my life accknowladging being trans. I grew up wanting to be female, not ts, so that what i am and eventually and unfortunately some of my friends may feel they have to close the door on me and i cannot be responsible for that. after i am completely and totally female, i will start distancing myself from the community in person. I have decided that i will always be on ts forums like this one and others but in a supportive capacity. good topic :)

My entire therapy group was filled with what the older straight transwomen there dubbed "weekend warriors". Basically, they worked their IT jobs, were on hormones, and would change into their "alt" identities after work. We live in the bay area and there are plenty of trangender people in the computer field. So they clearly had other reasons for not wanting to come out. I won't go into the specifics, but I cut my ties there immediately. I kinda wish I hadn't went to the group and just went to the clinic for hormones. Whether we want to admit it or not, there are cliques in the transworld. Even on this board, we're divided by several things. Instead of being in the shark tank...I said, "screw that" and went to hang out in the straight world. Unlike the gays, I am not reminded "You used to be a cute ass boy..." all the time.

I still do go out to gay bars. I've went to straight bars with no issue. But a lot of my blossoming and exploration hasn't happened because I've been in a difficult relationship. I love the man, but because I had been with him since I started I wasn't able to meet other people.

Quote from: Arch on October 06, 2011, 12:49:00 PM
First of all, it wasn't at all obvious to me that it wasn't aimed at FTMs until I started seeing FFS (which I figured was just a glitch that she would clear up later) and, after that, assumptions that we all want to be "normal" women. So many people outside of the community assume that you can only go one direction that I am not too pleased when people inside the community say "transsexual" and clearly mean "MTF." Sorry, but I have encountered this a lot from trans women, and it makes me seem invisible in the larger transsexual community, one place where I should be uniquely visible.

I registered my objections in my last post in this thread. If you read it and you still don't understand why I was irritated, then I guess we will have to "agree to disagree" and leave it at that.

Oh, and this was not in the general TS section; it was in the general TG section (I think I have already pointed this out twice, but here I am doing it again). That type of assumption pretty much conflates TG with TS; when you add the other assumption/implication that all TS are MTFs, some people's feathers are going to get ruffled.

I did acknowledge her good intentions, but I felt that I had to register my perceptions.

I stand corrected. She totally screwed up where she put it. It clearly should have been in the MTF TS section as most of what she said would only apply to a MTF TS.

Luckily, we won't have to deal with here miscatagorizations ever again.

What I am, is what I choose to be.  I think of that as the power position.  I don't seek pity, or sympathy, or even empathy - have no need for any of them really.  All I want is for people who disagree, to get the hell out of my way, because I don't want to hurt them, but I'm not slowing down, or even swerving from them.  If they get run over - well, road kill is part of life in the fast lane.

This is part of my life, part of my life's course, part of what makes me be me and I'm not about to change it - I intended to continue to use to to my maximum advantage.  (And if you don't see the advantage in it, then that's just the poverty of your imagination.)  I'm not going to let anyone make it wrong - but neither do I care if anyone else makes it legitimate.  That's just other people's point of view, which of course, they are welcome to - but understand it make no difference to anyone outside of yourself.

The people I've seen be successful with this find a way to envelop it in their life, it become part of them, but it does not rule them.

That which you see as a weakness, a liability, a determent, as burden,  will drag you down like a boat anchor.  That which you embrace as a strength, as a unique (even thought its not) attribute, as a power - will empower you.

Once upon a time, I tried really hard to be the nice person.  To be the sensitive, kind, understanding, 'oh that's OK' kind of human that is so often praised in life. OH MY GOD I TRIED SO HARD TO BE LOVED.  What I got was run over.  So, on that day when I embraced what I really was, a bitch, a prick, and a perfectionist on top of all that - not only did my pay quadrupedal overnight, not only did the shows and classes get better, but I also got rid of all the people who demanded that they required my sensitivity, my understanding, my kindness, and I replaced them with people who only wanted to do the next right thing.  Not only did I get rid of a lot of crap in my life.  I also found people who loved me.  Really loved me, for exactly what I was.  Who took all that I was as a total package, and didn't single out any one thing.

It was awesome.



I've sent to tekla via PM instead  No you didn't, you send me your useless profile.  And, don't bother to send what you wanted to.  Really. I don't read PM's from people I don't know.  And, based upon your posts - and your quitting - and your coming back (God, make a choice) and your posts since then. I really don't want to know you. (Hey, at least I'm honest and I'm not wasting other people's time.)

Quote from: tekla on October 07, 2011, 04:11:04 AM
What I am, is what I choose to be.  I think of that as the power position.

No-one chooses to be a MTF or FTM.  What someone does is chose to deny who they are.  But if there's choice involved where real happiness is possible with lifestyle then I'd go for the lifestyle option first, as I said upthread.

I sure would rather have a lifestyle than a miserable existence if that's the choice.

I know choosing to have a lifestyle when I could be all that I am, is a miserable existence.  I've lived the miserable life and no amount of success ever fills it, and especially not internet bragging.

Quote from: tekla on October 07, 2011, 04:11:04 AM
I've sent to tekla via PM instead  No you didn't, you send me your useless profile.  And, don't bother to send what you wanted to.  Really. I don't read PM's from people I don't know.  And, based upon your posts - and your quitting - and your coming back (God, make a choice) and your posts since then. I really don't want to know you. (Hey, at least I'm honest and I'm not wasting other people's time.)

What you mean is you can't respond to PM's highlighting your ageist mindset, long before you turned up over and over the like appears in your posts.  I know why Kathy set up Trueselves.

Tekla, I admire your style.. But being a realist around here doesn't seem to get you far..

Quote from: tekla on October 07, 2011, 04:11:04 AM
...on that day when I embraced what I really was, a bitch, a prick, and a perfectionist on top of all that ..... I also found people who loved me.  Really loved me, for exactly what I was.  Who took all that I was as a total package, and didn't single out any one thing.

But you've singled out one thing haven't you.  Are you a bitch, a prick, or are you like everyone else the total package?

Anyway this has nothing to do with the topic.

Wow, this is a much bigger discussion than I had imagined.

First of all, if you don't like this advice - just ignore it and go about your merry way. But don't kid yourself - getting through this successfully puts you in the minority. It's sad but true. Many of us don't get to lives where we're perceived in the gender we wish, or can get employed or have meaningful relationships. Many get stuck in limbo, or frankly die along the way. I've had five friends commit suicide.

Follow your own path, but don't kid yourself about your chances. Cowboy up and get to work.

Secondly, this thread is a lovely example of why leaving the community is a good eventual goal. You can't reach everyone. There's a lot of trauma, defensiveness and hostility. If you stay in the community, you will drown in this negativity. There are certainly positive people that have transitioned, and if you are inclined, I would suggest seeking those out. Personally, I find that one on one friendships have less noise.

Thirdly, I realize that many people have families before they transition - and I understand the reasons for this. But, don't kid yourself - transitioning with a spouse and children is a HUGE complication. That doesn't mean there can't be a lot of love there - but now EVERYONE needs therapy. And the vast majority of married people end up getting divorced, in my experience. Maybe your kids are supportive of your change, but you're a parent which means they are looking to YOU for support - and transition is an immensely selfish time. It's just common sense that it's simpler without a spouse and children.

The bottom line is this - transitioning is a lot of work. It's a full time job. Voice skills, therapy, learning social interactions, dealing with legal matters, electrolysis - it's SO MUCH work. It consumed me for an entire year, and having three FFS surgeries and recovering consumed me for another year.

When I came out of the closet, I wrote to Jennifer Finney Boylan, whose book "She's not There" inspired me to take action. She wrote me back something that stayed with me all these years. "The movement you need is between your shoulders." Your momentum is there too, but wallowing in this kind of nonsense is the opposite of that. Pick a plan and kick some bootie. ^^

Great post Crimsonsky.

You tell it like it is.  It's no wonder that society has difficulty accepting TS men and women, when there is so much drivel posted on the boards and to be honest how can they understand when they see or are aware of folks expressing their warped idea of what men and women are.  We will never be accepted while so called gender benders claim rights they are not entitled to.

Quote from: Steph on October 07, 2011, 11:43:14 AM
Great post Crimsonsky.

You tell it like it is.  It's no wonder that society has difficulty accepting TS men and women, when there is so much drivel posted on the boards and to be honest how can they understand when they see or are aware of folks expressing their warped idea of what men and women are.  We will never be accepted while so called gender benders claim rights they are not entitled to.

I wouldn't word word it so strongly, but I do think that kind of desultory transsexual kind of has a negative effect for the rest of us.

The TS roommate I mentioned in the above thread would frequently use the phrase, "Well, who knows what reality is, anyway?" It gave her a lot of comfort over the fact that no one perceived her as female in the real world, or in her life. And it's not a phenomenon that's limited to her, it's almost a majority position.

I do think the successful faces of TS don't get noticed by the public specifically because we are successful. So, the public perception is really different than the reality. The media doesn't help much either - they always portray us with the most shocking pictures and footage. The reality is a lot more ordinary.

Media doesn't cover ordinary.  Man bites dog is a headline, dog bites man, not so much.  And people who are a slave to media are not going to be able to be convinced anyway.

Quote from: Steph on October 07, 2011, 11:43:14 AM
Great post Crimsonsky.

You tell it like it is.  It's no wonder that society has difficulty accepting TS men and women, when there is so much drivel posted on the boards and to be honest how can they understand when they see or are aware of folks expressing their warped idea of what men and women are.  We will never be accepted while so called gender benders claim rights they are not entitled to.

What rights are they claiming they have no right to?

My spouse is an androgyn and ze looks like an androgyn. So ze fits right into the gender benders you are attacking here...
That is an attack on my family so please allow me the luxury of being rather upset with the tone and tenor of this post...
So what rights are people like my spouse demanding that they have no entitlement to?
Perhaps the right to pee in a public toilet in peace?
Or perhaps the right to employment is an issue?

Quote from: crimsonsky on October 07, 2011, 11:08:19 AM
There are certainly positive people that have transitioned, and if you are inclined, I would suggest seeking those out. 

You won't find many of them here because positive people know emotions are viral, and if you hang out in the infirmary, you're bound to catch a cold.

Anyway the only problem with your advice is that it seems to presume that everybody here is a binary TS person (the boys can just ignore the female specific stuff and it works for them too)  and that is far from being the case.  In fact, as you can see from many replies here, there has become an almost open hostility toward that type of person here.  I don't think it used to be that way.

Quote from: Steph on October 07, 2011, 12:15:11 PM
Oops I seemed to have touched a nerve.  But I guess it's to be expected. And yep I was serious.

Don't give yourself that much credit. I wasn't offended so much by you, as much as I was dumbfounded by the sheer immaturity and close-mindedness of what you said. We are all hated equally by those who would hate us. It is that plain and simple.

And while there are differences in our community, it will only helps those who would repress all of us, to single out individuals who are different from ourselves. Rights should be given as a matter of principle, not for meeting some specific qualifications that a few make for many.

Quote from: Steph on October 07, 2011, 11:43:14 AM
Great post Crimsonsky.

You tell it like it is.  It's no wonder that society has difficulty accepting TS men and women, when there is so much drivel posted on the boards and to be honest how can they understand when they see or are aware of folks expressing their warped idea of what men and women are.  We will never be accepted while so called gender benders claim rights they are not entitled to.

wow. That post was so bigoted, narrow-minded, and hypocritical it's not even worth me replying back with an explanation about how wrong it is.

The only comfort I have in this is thank goodness not every trans person thinks this way.

Quote from: A_Dresden_Doll on October 07, 2011, 12:25:21 PM
Don't give yourself that much credit. I wasn't offended so much by you, as much as I was dumbfounded by the sheer immaturity and close-mindedness of what you said. We are all hated equally by those who would hate us. It is that plain and simple.

And while there are differences in our community, it will only helps those who would repress all of us, to single out individuals who are different from ourselves. Rights should be given as a matter of principle, not for meeting some specific qualifications that a few make for many.

exactly

If we all thought this way, then we would be no different than those in society who calls us men because we were born with a penis or a woman only because they were born with a vagina.

A reminder to please refrain from personal attacks. This topic is locked.

Quote from: JessicaH on October 06, 2011, 10:37:35 AM
By the way Bri, I gave you a reputation bump a few days ago but someone removed it...

I've found no record of this happening. It's possible the applaud simply didn't go through.