Hi. I said I was leaving, and after this thread, I will probably go back into my hiatus. But something has been brought to my attention that NEEDS to be discussed.
Trans-Elitism.
You are not better than anyone else. Just because you are pretty, young, old, ugly, have money for srs/ffs/ba/whatever else, intersexed, more educated, have less support from your family/friends, have more support from your family/friends, are happily married under your new gender. Absolutely nothing makes you better than anyone else.
People, stop singling each other out. It's not a contest. We are ALL fighting just to live our lives. Just because someone does something different from you doesn't mean they're doing it wrong. Stop judging each other, we already get enough judgement from the rest of the world, we don't need it from our own community. We're supposed to be supporting each other, not bringing each other down.
Trans-elitism, trans-cliques.... trans-inequality is what all of this really is. Stop it, stop it, STOP IT!!!
Why are we fighting for trans-rights when we are our own worst enemy? Let's start by forming some actual cohesion in the community.
:icon_hug:
Ya it does get old doesn't it?
I wouldn't say I am better than anyone. Maybe better at taking tequila shots and ending up in strangers beds.
I have been noticing this more and more and would like to give you a big kudos for posting this. We are here to support eachother, not to be catty and competitive and just generally judgmental towards one another.
We should all just listen to One Love by Bob Marley, give each other hugs and treat each other with respect. It's really that easy.
Samantha & Andromeda, I could not agree more! +1 to both of you!
I think I'm better than anybody else, and everybody is wrong about EVERYTHING.
Ok, now where's my long island iced tea?
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 01, 2011, 10:59:39 PM
I wouldn't say I am better than anyone. Maybe better at taking tequila shots and ending up in strangers beds.
Hey you're wrong!! I'M better at ending up in stranger's beds!! ;D
Quote from: Samantharz on November 01, 2011, 10:18:25 PMJust because you are pretty, young, old, ugly, have money for srs/ffs/ba/whatever else, intersexed, more educated, have less support from your family/friends, have more support from your family/friends, are happily married under your new gender. Absolutely nothing makes you better than anyone else.
You left out:
Don't have money for srs/ffs/ba/whatever else, love your penis/vagina, hate your penis/vagina, don't feel the need for surgery, do feel the need for surgery (whether or not you can afford it), and especially, "can't for the life of me comprehend why this is so important to others, gee why don't they shut up about it already?"
Elitism goes across the board, and to single out one specific group and lay all the blame for it on them is just as elitist as any other group being accused. "WE support everybody! (well, except YOU whose opinions we revile)" is hypocritical. Hey, it always takes two to tango, as the saying goes. The only way it's going to stop is stop feeding it, no matter how right you think you are, or how wrong the other person is, or how wrong the whole internet is! Practice walking away from controversial threads instead of feeling the incessant need to toss your 2 cents in the pot. It isn't helping, but it is doing a whole lot more than 2 cents worth of damage. It might also help to consider how your words are going to be perceived by others who don't think like you before you post them, and that's a big one.
This is an excellent venue for getting all the walking away practice you need. So what if somebody loves their penis? Walk away. So what if you love your penis and think anyone who doesn't is deluded? Walk away. It's interesting how many of the people who complain so much about the controversy are the ones themselves right in the midst of it. It's never "us" guilty of bickering, it's always "them". If you can't control yourself, write out the longest, most hate-filled, scathing rant you like and put those pretentious know-it-alls in their places.... but then, just don't post it. Maybe share it with your friends in a PM, or gripe about it in one of the private forums among your own peer group. Feel better now?
Look, I'm happily post-op, I have a wonderful life as a fulfilled and complete woman. I see things here that are utterly laughable, things that are downright bizarre, and things that I personally find highly offensive. But I'm not trying to force my opinion down anyone's throat, or change anyone's mind. There is a TOS in place for reporting violations. There are people here who genuinely suffer and others who think its all a big game. But as long as the "I'm right and you're just an bigot" attitude prevails, and as long as people just cannot walk away and leave the deluded to their delusions and stop trying to "fix" everybody else's attitude, this sort of thing will continue and will continue to be a problem detrimental to the ones who find all this incessant bickering in extremely poor taste.
This is so much more than just here on Susans. It happens in real life as well, and that's where I'm getting to. Though it does apply here on Susans as well, a recent scenario in real life (that does not involve me directly) is why I decided to post this.
But... but... but... bathrooms..!
Yes, I agree with you entirely. I just wanted to post. :-*
We are all the same - human.
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 01, 2011, 10:59:39 PM
I wouldn't say I am better than anyone. Maybe better at taking tequila shots and ending up in strangers beds.
I'm fairly sure I can give you some stiff competition on the latter >:-)
Quote from: Ava1 on November 02, 2011, 02:35:35 AM
We are all the same - human.
Some humans are bigger than others
Hi. Trans elitist here.
Not actually though. I think I am taken for one because my idea of a trans person is someone who strongly identifies with the gender they are transitioning to. I have to be honest about the fact that I do not understand the point of being a tomboy MTF or a femme FTM.
But a lot of people fill in way too many blanks and take that as an offensive, transphobic statement. HOWEVER... I have never once told someone they should not transition, I have never once told someone they shouldn't do the things they want to do. I think it is their freedom to transition for whatever reason.
That doesn't mean it has to make sense to me though. I feel like people definitely transition for not always the same reason, and while neither reason is superior, they have different needs to be met and I don't think it is a bad thing to recognize that they are different. Actually I think it is ignorant to pretend like everyone has the exact same problem. Yes, they are all problems! I am not arguing with that. But if you try to pretend like they are the same thing I think it hurts all parties.
I've said this from the very beginning but i'll say it again......can't we all just get along? :icon_flower:
It's human nature... heirarchy, classification, dislike, elitism... those things are pretty fun for most people. I admit to being a part of that at times.
To end trans-elitism, one has to believe that every other trans person goes through equally valid struggles, I imagine. And some people are definitely going to say they're better for going through more, or be elitist about their luck... and not needing to go through hard times. People are just like that - unfortunately.
It's an amazing thing when a person can accept that we are equal, and that we are our own little collective. Other trans feel like kindred to me, personally. I just wish more felt like that - the unity would change the world.
I pray for the end of it all. Perhaps something someone will do will spread the realization that we are, in a way, like family. Compassion defeats heirarchy, and elitism, and it's such a fuzzy feeling to have...
trans-equality is fine outside Europe but inside Europe it is essential to separate TS from all the TGs as only TS need surgery which is provided by the European National Health Systems (if you Americans and others pay $9 for a gallon of petrol or diesel you too could have free health services).
If the TS are just TGs premise is promoted then the masses will say well that person says he is really MtF a woman in a mans body or FtM man in a woman's body but so are all CD/TVs/Drag queens/Drag Kings etc and they don't want to have their penisses/breasts chopped off so those persons must be crazy.
That is the attitude until very recently and still promoted by lesbian and homosexual extremists and religious fundamentalists.
So I promote TS separatism and if that is seen as elitism so be it.
I won't say there are people out there who don't feel superior but based on a lot of my own personal experience I find that what people think of as elitism is more just misunderstandings.
I think for the most part we all have good intentions. But because we are all not the same we may not be grasping what the other is saying because we don't think the same. An example of this is I try to be funny in my posts to bring a little light humor to serious issues. That's just the way I am. But someone might take offense to my joke and they are so focused on being insulted they missed what I was saying and we are now official members of the Dramallama Club.
I am not right and I'm not wrong, I am just stating my own personal opinion. Misunderstandings are as common as Frosted Flakes in a hotel's breakfast. I think the idea is trying to read what the other is saying instead of picking out each small detail. Or to use the age old saying. "The forest for the trees."
It is fascinating to read at least one post a day that implies that I am not a girl. Somehow I don't have this problem with the cis folk in my life...
Quote from: Sarah7 on November 02, 2011, 08:47:54 AM
It is fascinating to read at least one post a day that implies that I am not a girl. Somehow I don't have this problem with the cis folk in my life...
It is interesting, isn't it. I've had much the same experience.
Start? It's been going on for how long now? And it's really stupid. Unfortunately, just because you put "stop it" in caps and big letters, won't make people stop. Peope have their views and opinions and no one can change them. It's best to just leave it alone, ignore, and move along.
You're right Jen. The Trans-Community is just as petty and childish as any other community. People will misunderstand, judge, compete, argue, just like any other community. I expected more from our community, assuming that we are all more-or-less enlightened; but I am so very wrong. I can't just ignore it and move along, not when it's causing pain to completely innocent people. Seeing people who are hurt makes me hurt.
I'm hurt by old transitioners (not all, not even most) being secretly jealous of young transitioners.
I'm hurt by young transitioners not heeding the advice of the more seasoned community.
I'm hurt by preop/postop people judging non-op people, saying they are less valid.
I'm hurt by people who gloat because they have it great, and by people who think they're better because they have it tough.
But I'm hurt most by the singling out of anybody. Just because a person is young doesn't make their points any less valid. Just because a person accepts their genitals doesn't mean that they're wrong or that they're the wrong type of trans.
If people are making you to feel that you're wrong for anything you feel, just remember that the one who is wrong is them. There is no right way or wrong way to be trans, and no one's problems are any more or less valid than anyone else.
If you're young or very early in transition, heed the advice of someone who has been around for a while. If you're older, don't automatically discredit the valid points of a younger/earlier transitioner. If you hate your genitals, don't say that somebody is wrong for embracing theirs.
I am so frustrated. I know that the world is like this, but I really expected more from our small community. That was naive, even the most enlightened people in the world can still be childish.
I respect the right of each person to self identify as whatever is right for them, without invalidating others' identities and choices. I listen to others' stories and try to understand where they're coming from, even when it is 180 degrees from my opinion. I look for common ground in each person. Yes, we might be different, but in what ways are we the same? Most of us are here at Susan's because of our experiences of gender disconnect, I empathize with the pains all have felt in this path.
Z
Samantharz, I can rarely place my feelings so well in a few lines like those you have written.
However I don't see why you would be hurt by jealousy from others. In fact I think jealousy is something you can't avoid. Envy is where I place the line.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 02, 2011, 09:03:46 AM
Start? It's been going on for how long now? And it's really stupid. Unfortunately, just because you put "stop it" in caps and big letters, won't make people stop. Peope have their views and opinions and no one can change them. It's best to just leave it alone, ignore, and move along.
I don't understand this. Are we to remain silent when someone says something hateful? Could you clarify this please?
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 02, 2011, 12:27:15 PM
I don't understand this. Are we to remain silent when someone says something hateful? Could you clarify this please?
What I'm saying is that there's no point in people arguing back and forth about who's right and who's wrong because it will never end. At the end of the day we're all going to believe in what we believe in.
Okay, thanks for the clarification Jen.
Sure thing.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 02, 2011, 12:53:51 PM
What I'm saying is that there's no point in people arguing back and forth about who's right and who's wrong because it will never end. At the end of the day we're all going to believe in what we believe in.
People are gonna think what they think. Will we not like it? Pretty much. But we can't change it.
Nice new avatar. But what happened to my earrings??? You were rocking it.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 02, 2011, 02:20:49 PM
Nice new avatar. But what happened to my earrings??? You were rocking it.
Too much duck lip.
Quote from: pretty on November 02, 2011, 03:25:19 AM
Not actually though. I think I am taken for one because my idea of a trans person is someone who strongly identifies with the gender they are transitioning to. I have to be honest about the fact that I do not understand the point of being a tomboy MTF or a femme FTM.
The fact that I might not be classically masculine in every way doesn't mean I don't strongly identify as male. There are actually very few people who conform perfectly to any stereotype, even when the stereotype is grounded in some general truth.
Many of us who are noticeably less gender-conforming are also gay and lesbian (so we're in good company). The widespread lack of conformity to gender stereotypes in the GLB community shouldn't be read to imply any weakness of gender identification. Have you spent any time around lesbians? There is nothing in the world more woman-centric than lesbian culture. It's the Vagina Cult of the Earth Mother Goddess. And the gay male side of the community is the mirror image of the lesbian side. The fact that we like to play around with superficial stuff that's normally associated with the other gender doesn't have any particular deep meaning.
Quote from: kyril on November 02, 2011, 03:13:22 PM
Many of us who are noticeably less gender-conforming are also gay and lesbian (so we're in good company). The widespread lack of conformity to gender stereotypes in the GLB community shouldn't be read to imply any weakness of gender identification. Have you spent any time around lesbians? There is nothing in the world more woman-centric than lesbian culture. It's the Vagina Cult of the Earth Mother Goddess. And the gay male side of the community is the mirror image of the lesbian side. The fact that we like to play around with superficial stuff that's normally associated with the other gender doesn't have any particular deep meaning.
Meh. I get guff here for my connection with gay men. Gay men are very phallocentric..
But really, is someone elses identity any of our business? Really...
Quote from: pretty on November 02, 2011, 03:25:19 AMI have to be honest about the fact that I do not understand the point of being a tomboy MTF or a femme FTM.
But a lot of people fill in way too many blanks and take that as an offensive, transphobic statement.
There are masculine women just like there are feminine men, I guess it is only logical that this is also valid for MtF's and FtM's.
From my point of view is what a person likes or dislikes unrelated to his or her gender identity.
I wouldn't call that thought transphobic at all, it is more about how much you value traditional gender roles.
Quote from: Venus-Castina on November 02, 2011, 05:01:50 PM
There are masculine women just like there are feminine men, I guess it is only logical that this is also valid for MtF's and FtM's.
From my point of view is what a person likes or dislikes unrelated to his or her gender identity.
I have always been able to spot trans people because something goes off in my head and says, "thats a trans". Passing, being passable, and being a genetic man or woman are different concepts entirely.
I agree with Samantha, it's hard enough being trans so why must we fight amongst each other like children? If we want to send a positive image to the rest of society about us then we should try'n help our fellow trans brother's & sister's with their problems. - xo
"Controversy" is my middle name...My last name is "Kardashian"
Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on November 02, 2011, 06:39:25 PM
"Controversy" is my middle name...My last name is "Kardashian"
Randomness :laugh:
Quote from: kyril on November 02, 2011, 03:13:22 PM
The fact that I might not be classically masculine in every way doesn't mean I don't strongly identify as male. There are actually very few people who conform perfectly to any stereotype, even when the stereotype is grounded in some general truth.
Many of us who are noticeably less gender-conforming are also gay and lesbian (so we're in good company). The widespread lack of conformity to gender stereotypes in the GLB community shouldn't be read to imply any weakness of gender identification. Have you spent any time around lesbians? There is nothing in the world more woman-centric than lesbian culture. It's the Vagina Cult of the Earth Mother Goddess. And the gay male side of the community is the mirror image of the lesbian side. The fact that we like to play around with superficial stuff that's normally associated with the other gender doesn't have any particular deep meaning.
I don't really think of it as being gender-conforming or not... maybe I think of it more as being about consistency in what you want I guess?
Well, I know there are feminine men and masculine women. Of course there are. But the question is, how many of those actually identify strongly as their birth sex? You have to remember, if you're only looking at birth sex part of the picture, MTFs would have to be considered feminine men and FTMs would be masculine women in the first place. You can't really use those people as an example because you don't know how they feel about their birth sex, and you don't know that they would transition if they were born as the other sex. Those masculine women, for example, might actually feel bad about being a woman.
And just personally, I would think that if your average feminine man, for example, somehow ended up born as a woman, they would probably not hate being a woman or desire to be a man strongly enough to transition. Because, well, they're feminine. It's socially easier to be feminine as a woman and socially easier to be masculine as a man. And most feminine people are women, most masculine people are men. Why would they want to go out of their way to make it harder to be themselves around other people?
That's the part I don't understand. Personally I want to transition into a woman because I feel feminine and want to be able to express and be accepted for my femininity. I feel like a woman because I am feminine. I can't imagine feeling masculine and also like a woman. I mean, the word masculine means like a man in the first place, and feminine means like a woman.
BUT... the important part is that I am only agreeing to disagree on what is "masculine" or "feminine". I am not denying or disrepsecting anyone's identity or saying they should or should not transition if they do or do not want to. I feel like a lot of people have an immediate reaction of anger if I do not have the same views of gender as them even if I'm not attempting to say my views are better or something. That makes me uncomfortable. I think the trans community in general needs to pay more attention to what people mean by the things they say and get less caught up in the little details. I think the response of indignation over every little thing only hurts the image of trans people, personally.
Is this where I get my shot of hubris?
Mmkay.
As a relative noob to this site and this community I thought I would take the plunge and toss in my 2 cents. If you don't care for, I'll send you a pre-paid envelope so you can send me a refund.
I think being new to this community (Susans) I can see and talk about the issue at hand without personal bias (come on now people, we all have it) towards any given group or member.
We'll see if that holds up.
Just like with ANY other group there will always be people that think they are better than others and occasionally needs to voice that opinion. Now are they doing it to be hurtful? Are they doing it to mask low self-esteem on their part? Are they doing it just to chime in, or are they doing it because they are just being honest?
That last part might make you raise an eyebrow, but think about it. I didn't say they were right, I said they were just being honest as in their mind, with whatever form those neurons are firing and whatever wiring is in whatever form, they absoultely are convinced that their opinion is fact. Is that opinion any less valid than yours or mine?
Unless they are stating something blatantly and obviously disproven by corroberated and empirical date, it is anyones guess.
Now to address this topic specifically,
EVERY person living in society of any shape, size or form will by their very nature attempt to find others that they can most likely relate to. Within that grouping they will either vie for leadership or settle into a more submissive role. They will over time be indoctrinated into that group and defend it's very meaning and existence vehemently, sometimes bordering on the fanatic (or over).
So there is your sociology lesson from Capt. Obvious.
The issue to me isn't so much that there are people with opinions that some might consider wrong, hurtful or even threatening, it is more our (all of us) inability to process that information and put it into the "oh well, that person stands for something I disagree with and no amount of talking to them will help convince them to my side."
But think about it, they are thinking the exact same thing.
Does that make either wrong or right?
Is it worth it to really highlight our differences and put (in some cases) the most trivial of things about us under the microscope and claiming that is what defines us?
The trans community is amazing as it spans all ages, socio-economic boundries, religions, countries, education levels, etc. But that also means that none of us really speak the same language...
other than the fact that we share the commonality that we are all "different" than what is considered the societal norm. Beyond that, we diverge in 360 degrees in 3 dimensions across the entire spectrum.
I for one don't give a jumping rats ass what label you wear around your neck or if you have so many you don't even know or just have not yet figured out which size and color fit you best. You are all people to me and I judge you based on your actions and words. If you want to look down on me or up at me, it truly won't cost me a single wink of sleep. I know who I am (only took 31 years) and I am happy with what I am doing and where I am going.
You must find the confidence to be able to say that and mean it and then you will understand why actions and words that facilitate threads like this to be trivial.
That's it. Take it, leave it, skip it. It was worth the 4 minutes or so for me to type it.
- flamesuit on -
Quote from: pretty on November 02, 2011, 07:37:26 PM
BUT... the important part is that I am only agreeing to disagree on what is "masculine" or "feminine". I am not denying or disrepsecting anyone's identity or saying they should or should not transition if they do or do not want to. I feel like a lot of people have an immediate reaction of anger if I do not have the same views of gender as them even if I'm not attempting to say my views are better or something. That makes me uncomfortable. I think the trans community in general needs to pay more attention to what people mean by the things they say and get less caught up in the little details. I think the response of indignation over every little thing only hurts the image of trans people, personally.
There have been a lot of transwomen who have called me a "ultra femme gay boy" etc and other insulting terms. A community that is not unified is a community that will fail.
I don't have an answer but I think that there are probably so many answers as to why this happens so much. The fighting, bickering, and heightened sensitivities.
In part, it may be because so many issues touch on our own (possibly fragile) identities. Transition and the desire for a strong sense of self when it seems so much is in question that may lead people to overreact or feel a greater sense of threat than is always necessary. I don't know... I know it can certainly get tiring and draining to see and read when we often need a push forward and support.
I was on a develepmental psychologists website who is trans that was talking about this issue and I think it might be insightful as to why this happens so much on these sites... Hopefully, it isn't a problem to post the link...
http://www.genderpsychology.org/gender_queer/external_validation.html (http://www.genderpsychology.org/gender_queer/external_validation.html)
Wishing you all well... And, I don't think this needs to be controversial at all...
Well said Samantha. It is unfortunate that these very things are continuing to push away new members that are coming on here looking for a safe haven only to end up in more controversy. Alot of us have self-esteem/ environmental/societal issues that they came on here to get away from, and not all of us are able to survive such mental hardships.
The LAST thing our own community needs to be doing is CONTRIBUTING to our own populous having the most suicides of ANY community. That is still happening right now with someone I know.
That's why I'm reviving this thread, especially after recent events on here from earlier this week.
You said "Let's start some controversy."
You don't need to post a contentious issue.
Even just posting "What's your favourite colour?" will do it :-
Some one will post to say blue and another to say pink.
Then someone will say that blue is a colour associated with males and someone else will point out that it hasn't always been that way.
Someone will say that pink is very stereotypical for girls and someone else will say that there should be no traditions about colour and they have a RIGHT to wear whatever they want! Grrrr.....
Someone else will say that there should not even be a binary view of gender.....
Before you know it, we'll be a thousand miles from the topic and the place will be in flames :D
We are our own worst enemies :(
QuoteNaturally curly hair is better than straight hair.
*fluffs curls*
LMAO
Sister..... that's fighting talk!
Quote from: Steffi on February 29, 2012, 09:13:07 PM
You said "Let's start some controversy."
You don't need to post a contentious issue.
Even just posting "What's your favourite colour?" will do it :-
Some one will post to say blue and another to say pink.
Then someone will say that blue is a colour associated with males and someone else will point out that it hasn't always been that way.
Someone will say that pink is very stereotypical for girls and someone else will say that there should be no traditions about colour and they have a RIGHT to wear whatever they want! Grrrr.....
Someone else will say that there should not even be a binary view of gender.....
Before you know it, we'll be a thousand miles from the topic and the place will be in flames :D
We are our own worst enemies :(
He, he, I just like your way(s) saying stuff, giggle...
I think a LOT, A *LOT*, is just a girl thing and a *LOT* of us are on a hormone roller-coaster with more ups and downs than a big-dipper, or?
The trick may just be to forgive and forget at times....... though it needs some training that, sure does :-)
Hugs,
Axélle
PS: Now me, I just discovered a light lemon-yellow for myself yummy – so who needs your baby blue or pink, eh?! Starting new nice controversy, hum? :-)
Quote from: veritatemfurto on February 29, 2012, 06:11:35 PM
Well said Samantha. It is unfortunate that these very things are continuing to push away new members that are coming on here looking for a safe haven only to end up in more controversy. Alot of us have self-esteem/ environmental/societal issues that they came on here to get away from, and not all of us are able to survive such mental hardships.
The LAST thing our own community needs to be doing is CONTRIBUTING to our own populous having the most suicides of ANY community. That is still happening right now with someone I know.
That's why I'm reviving this thread, especially after recent events on here from earlier this week.
I appreciate other's ha ha's and sometimes contribute a few ha ha's here and there as well, but did no-one else catch this?
Quote
The LAST thing our own community needs to be doing is CONTRIBUTING to our own populous having the most suicides of ANY community.
Good point... yet also generalized.
More suicides than ANY community? No.
But yes, a high suicide rate.
We aren't Jonestown. That too, was a community.
Support is relative. Everybody here wishes to support and be supported (that is HUMAN, communal nature). But some people's support is another's rubbish.
Every person here has (roughly) ten toes to step on. Some toes are bigger than others.
Yeah, we should take it easy on the newbies here... but we should also go light on the supporters when they fall short. This is not a community of professionals. This is a community of individuals with an unique commonilaty.
I did... V M,
but having just recently dealt with one such, and it being based on drunk self-pity with plenty of lies to boot, as was not the first time! - I have come to my present conclusion to let be, and WHAT IS – IS.
If you want to kill yourself and think that's the best thing to do - after having done some good talking - WHO IS ANYONE TO TELL YOU OR ME OTHERWISE?!
Call it though love honey, - YMMV
Axélle
PS: there be plenty more to say as always - but I'm done with this sort of "disempowerment" help-business, right now.
Plus if you really want to count some dead bodies... be my guest.
The truth shall set you free... yes?
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on March 01, 2012, 02:28:14 AM
I did... V M,
but having just recently dealt with one such, and it being based on drunk self-pity with plenty of lies to boot, as was not the first time! - I have come to my present conclusion to let be, and WHAT IS – IS.
If you want to kill yourself and think that's the best thing to do - after having done some good talking - WHO IS ANYONE TO TELL YOU OR ME OTHERWISE?!
Call it though love honey, - MMV
Axélle
PS: there be plenty more to say as always - but I'm done with this sort of "disempowerment" help-business, right now.
Plus if you really want to count dead some bodies... be my guest.
The truth shall set you free... yes?
Actually, I wasn't talking about myself, I'm not actually that self absorbed. I was talking about a teenager who came here for support but ended up getting attacked and bullied by some other members
Quote from: Tori on March 01, 2012, 02:21:28 AM
Good point... yet also generalized.
OK, I'll rephrase:
The LAST thing any trans should be doing is CONTRIBUTING to other trans suicides- its already astronomical on its own.
@VM (respectfully)
I saw what happened.
I participated in the "bullying".
She came in asking questions and wouldn't respond positively to the answers she was provided.
People, being people, were often as defensive to her responses as she was to theirs.
That is human nature.
Sure, we can do better...
We can do better than play the suicide card, too.
That is rather heavy handed... no?
Especially since said teen has checked in on these forums since then. No?
Especially since the main crux of the criticism she received was this: "We can not help you, trust your therapist or seek more therapy!"
Is suggesting more therapy assisted suicide?
Perhaps I missed some jems, VM, since threads have been deleted... but really, with all due respect, the situation could have been handled better all around. To blame the regular participants of this forum, rather than the aforsaid teen or the staff?
Are we not a community?
We all share the blame... and the rewards. No?
Aloha,
Tori
*ninja edits have been made. :)
Quote from: veritatemfurto on March 01, 2012, 02:50:36 AM
OK, I'll rephrase:
The LAST thing any trans should be doing is CONTRIBUTING to other trans suicides- its already astronomical on its own.
Better...
Anybody who intentionally contributes to a suicide here should not be here.
But suicides are by definition a solo act.
I get your point. Got it the first time too... but I still find fault in your semantics. This IS worth ironing out however and your point is indeed, noble.
The last thing ANYONE should CONTRIBUTE to, is to ANYONE'S suicide, trans or otherwise!
Now the question remains what you'd call "contribution" in such a case?
It takes a bit of experience to know the difference I dare say... and who in fact is blessed, to have this experience in each case?
My shrink had no issues to contribute to my suicide... so long his 'professional ass' was covered, and it was just me being "emotionally unstable".
Oh shame... this one just didn't make it... too unstable... didn't want to go on Prozac... could have told you... too bad... etc. etc.
I'm still here to tell the tale... so maybe he had a point?
Toughen up or perish. Its no cake walk to transition... and all those sweet words are in the end - just sweet words, or?
Some folks get hooked on 'sweet words', like that "friend" I mentioned in my earlier post (not you VM).
They in fact are shocked if you don't become hysterical over them talking about it – yet again. Well, all the power them.
I actually am a pretty supportive person – though not supportive of BS, and that's my call, no one else's, as to what seems BS in such a case, and what is not.
One BLUE subject, now I AM getting depressed, eish!
Let's move on
Axélle
I'm not interested in playing the blame game, I'm just trying to help if possible. I wouldn't even bother otherwise. I am sorry if people misunderstand my motives or reasons for even trying to help others, but for some reason I do try to help
Am I wrong in believing that this is a support site?
Absolutely not.
Still, support is relative... and a rather general term.
If a person types a post with the INTENT of helping, they are being supportive. It is their intent.
If someone reads the post and INTERPRETS it as otherwise, is it the fault of the original poster?
We have folks from all over the world on this forum. English is the language of choice but this is a global website and ALL kinds of English are spoken here. What seems rough to some is gold to others.
It is impossible to prove the INTENT of the poster by the words of their post.
But, when the several worry about the one... it is silly to blame the several.
Yeah, I don't get the whole competitive thing either. I believe in relativism - what is true for one, isn't true for another, but they're both correct. I think the idea of support is to sort of cheer lead individuals in the direction that they choose to head with themselves(as long as they aren't hurting anyone, like in a tangible way), to ask them questions about themselves that they haven't thought to ask yet, share resources, and offer stories of personal experience when asked. I consider telling a person that they're doing something wrong or that their opinion is wrong, especially when not asked, to be disrespectful and insulting. Like the OP said, not a one of us is greater or lesser than another. Despite the commonality that we share with identifying as being transgendered, we are all unique individuals with unique world views and personalities - let's celebrate that. :)
CJ,
While I agree with the OP, this dead thread was resurrected for other reasons.
With all due respect CJ, and I DUE respect you. ;)
Cheer leading is problematic in All situations... although THIS particular (teenage) gal does need a cheerleader.
Most folks on this website want adult advice... yet, some are kids.
This particular kid, although welcome still, has been chewed through the gears.
This IS a celebration here at Susan's.
And celebrating causes disphoria in some cases, apparently...
All's I am saying is, "Don't blame the regulars when newbies play a hard hand."
It is no more the regular's fault, than the staff's.
None of us are professionals. Or, if we are, we don't tell y'all here.
Cheerleading, though, is awesome but misleading.
Do we cheer everybody on every desire?
"I am 116 lbs and my therapist won't gives hormones 'cause I am under weight."????
Rah, Rah, Rah!
?
Cheerleading is one thing.
Blaming folks for worrying "Inappropriately" on a "Support site" is quite another.
Yeah the girl could've found her home here. She hasn't yet.
No need to blame the masses.
Aloha,
Tori
Quote from: Tori on March 02, 2012, 01:32:56 AM
CJ,
While I agree with the OP, this dead thread was resurrected for other reasons.
I disagree, it was originally about people going back and forth on petty differences, making mountains out of molehills... debating the weight our words carry for each person falls within that realm.
With all due respect CJ, and I DUE respect you. ;)
and BTW congrats to CJ...
Cheer leading is problematic in All situations... although THIS particular (teenage) gal does need a cheerleader.
maybe but it does have a use for boosting self-esteem if only temporarily. Mentoring has a longer lasting effect. And she has a Sister...
Most folks on this website want adult advice... yet, some are kids.
considering the resources that are now available online, kids can surprise us with how smart they can be, but they still don't know everything, and why
they need turn to adults.
This particular kid, although welcome still, has been chewed through the gears.
what if I came on here because I was chewed through the gears before getting to here, even before I thought I was anything but gay?
This IS a celebration here at Susan's.
celebrating? I do not understand that statement. Where's that party, again? I like parties!
And celebrating causes disphoria in some cases, apparently...
The lack of celebrating can also contribute to one's dysphoria, which varies per person...
All's I am saying is, "Don't blame the regulars when newbies play a hard hand."
the rules of conduct still apply for every user, newbie or regular.
It is no more the regular's fault, than the staff's.
I have enough sense and trust to not place any blame on this site's staff
None of us are professionals. Or, if we are, we don't tell y'all here.
I wouldn't be surprised if a couple professionals sign on every so often...
Cheerleading, though, is awesome but misleading.
Do we cheer everybody on every desire?
"I am 116 lbs and my therapist won't gives hormones 'cause I am under weight."????
Agree, because of the weight, and its the mother's call... I can imagine that being underweight can raise the risk of adverse effects like thrombosis, but I'm not a doctor. I had to learn the hard way (OD) not to mess with medication.
Rah, Rah, Rah!
sisk boom bah
?
??
Cheerleading is one thing.
being a mentor or playing big sister is another
Blaming folks for worrying "Inappropriately" on a "Support site" is quite another.
When is worrying inappropriate? especially for someone like me with a disability that causes me to be super-critical of myself, need reinforcement of that self-image from complete strangers, respond compulsively when I have extreme anxiety because my family is being torn apart by my "identity crisis" while my unsupportive parent keeps beating me and calling me a freak? That put me at a very high rate of taking the stupid way of solving my problems when I was that age. I may have gotten over it, but not everyone is as lucky... Is it not right to worry or recognize those same signs in others? and want to do something about it???
Yeah the girl could've found her home here. She hasn't yet.
When I signed on here in my manic anxiety feeling like im all alone state, I didn't think I had one either.
No need to blame the masses.
nor should we care then?
Aloha,
mahalo
Tori
now Tori I know your intelligent, mean well, and that you're going on what you know... but because we don't have all the facts, we can only assume where this particular kid was coming from. But unless we've been in that situation ourselves, which I have, our assumptions about the true motives and mental state of any individual fresh off the street can't be assumed to have any accuracy to it whatsoever without caring enough to investigate further... not everyone is as strong/well as the next person- be it mentally, physically, or socially.
Quote from: Samantharz on November 02, 2011, 11:03:43 AM
You're right Jen. The Trans-Community is just as petty and childish as any other community. People will misunderstand, judge, compete, argue, just like any other community. I expected more from our community, assuming that we are all more-or-less enlightened; but I am so very wrong. I can't just ignore it and move along, not when it's causing pain to completely innocent people. Seeing people who are hurt makes me hurt.
I'm hurt by old transitioners (not all, not even most) being secretly jealous of young transitioners.
I'm hurt by young transitioners not heeding the advice of the more seasoned community.
I'm hurt by preop/postop people judging non-op people, saying they are less valid.
I'm hurt by people who gloat because they have it great, and by people who think they're better because they have it tough.
But I'm hurt most by the singling out of anybody. Just because a person is young doesn't make their points any less valid. Just because a person accepts their genitals doesn't mean that they're wrong or that they're the wrong type of trans.
If people are making you to feel that you're wrong for anything you feel, just remember that the one who is wrong is them. There is no right way or wrong way to be trans, and no one's problems are any more or less valid than anyone else.
If you're young or very early in transition, heed the advice of someone who has been around for a while. If you're older, don't automatically discredit the valid points of a younger/earlier transitioner. If you hate your genitals, don't say that somebody is wrong for embracing theirs.
I am so frustrated. I know that the world is like this, but I really expected more from our small community. That was naive, even the most enlightened people in the world can still be childish.
judge not least you be judged... which really means don't worry about other people.. really care for yourself and what your doing.. if you wasting time wondering what other people are thinking or doing well your just as bad as them..
come on let it go.. i wasted yrs thinking this or that about others and what did it get me but bad feeling about others and life itself...
i have become a much more spiritual forgiving human since i started to just judge myself.
everytime i think about others and what they are doing i quickly ask the spirits above to take it and have it be gone
remember we can never know what people go through and well to judge them in a negative way is actually throwing judgement back on ourselves so we can feel better about ourselves.
what is the saying .. that which you see in another is usually that which you can't see in yourself but that which you too suffer..
I made a statement that "the words i say about another, are really meant for me to hear." Yepper don't go there anymore and you will find the love to accept others and the ability to accept yourself.. besides
UNDER OUR GENDER / IDENTIIES
Queer Q
U U
transsExual E
Straight S
T T
bIsexual I
O O
lesbiaN N
INGay ING
OUR SPIRITS LAY
WITH OUT PREJUDICE
LISTEN TO THE SPIRITS.....HUMAN LIFE IS A DREAM OF THE REAL SPIRITUL WORLD... FROM WHERE WE COME AND WHERE WE ARE GOING BACK TOO!
worry not for all things here on earth for our time here is but a short stay
Most of the infighting I see is based on something I don't know if there is a solution to. People who strongly believe in the bi-gender model and people who don't.
Then again almost every community I have been involved in has this sort of divide. Like motorcycle riders, it's the harley riders vs the sport bike riders. The harley guys refuse to wave unless you're also on the same brand of bike. When I rode bicycles it was rode bike vs mountain bike. Same deal they just turn up their nose if you riding the "wrong" type. When I used to dabble in model trains it was HO scale models vs anything else. etc.
Stephe
Quote from: Axélle-Michélle on March 01, 2012, 03:31:56 AM
I actually am a pretty supportive person – though not supportive of BS.......
This ^
Stephe, what's HO? I've only heard of "N" scale. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn on March 02, 2012, 11:00:07 AM
Stephe, what's HO? I've only heard of "N" scale. Hugs, Devlyn
its about 1/87th scale of the real thing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HO_scale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HO_scale)
@ verita
I think you missed my main point.
This thread had been stalled for quite some time, and it was bumped back to the top of the list in referance to the posts made by a young member here and the responses she received.
This is a support site, but what are we supposed to support? A person who is fishing for compliments and perhaps a relationship? A member who is so thin her therapist is afraid to issue the HRT letter?
This girl was a tough case, and was not treated with the sensitivity she expected or felt she deserved.
When I engaged her, I was met with adversary from the start. She even hinted that I was overweight because I am not a size zero like her (although she quickly edited her post).
I certainly see why other members her did not treat her with kid gloves. But the advice she was given by the community was spot on. The tone at times was a bit harsh.
I mention all this because it is worth discussing.
This is a support site. In a perfect world, support would always come in the form of group hugs. Sadly, sometimes support needs to be administered in the form of a harsh dose of truth.
When the health of another member is on the line, I can not blame people for addressing the problem... even if the OP may not feel supported by the responses.
This is a tricky place, and support is a blanket term. The best of us can have our dysphoric tendancies flare up for the slightest of reasons. We can't be successfully supportive 100% of the time... but it doesn't hurt to try.
Support includes supporting the people who tried to help this young girl (and other tough cases), even when they fall short.
Yes, our community has a high suicide rate, I don't think anybody wants to raise that count by offending a young poster. To suggest otherwise is not being supportive.
We are a community of individuals. We share things in common but we also differ from each other in a variety of ways. I can not expect others to handle issues the way I would handle them and they should not expect me to handle issues the way they would handle them.
I really appreciate this discussion and I feel it is important to think about this stuff from time to time. Trust me, I am not angry at anyone... I just like good conversations about important issues.
Aloha,
Tori
Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 02, 2011, 09:03:46 AM
Start? It's been going on for how long now? And it's really stupid. Unfortunately, just because you put "stop it" in caps and big letters, won't make people stop. Peope have their views and opinions and no one can change them. It's best to just leave it alone, ignore, and move along.
That pretty much sums it up for me too. The only thing I would add is that elitism is just a part of life. True it's a terrible thing but name me one aspect of life that you won't find such individuals. Elitist are in church, schools, sports, work, governments, our own families...they are everywhere. I would guess most of us have been guilty of it ourselves at some point. It's wrong and we should try to be better than that to others. Outside of that you just need to, " just leave it alone, ignore, and move along."
yea ok... enough on the topic then. A couple other member know what has been going on in full and I've been keeping them informed as to her off-site well-being. I'll just say that regardless of what all happened, it was a damn good thing that I decided to intervene with her directly and that's all I'll say about that for the sake of her privacy as a minor... there's enough hints in my other posts elsewhere... I've pretty much taken on the responsibility of becoming her translator/liaison/ big sister and will be handling any questions she may have for the time being. Like I told her, if she had come on here and started out like everyone else with a "hi! I'm soandso from nowhereville and I could really use some help on getting my transition going...I've had problems and I've developed disorders from when I was outed pretty badly on a game and etc..." type of intro, then things might have went differently than how they did since we didn't know where she was coming from or what her background was... She can still come back on here and do so and if she wants to restart her account, then I will be there for her to assist in the process. She has the opportunity to graduate in her true gender next year, but only if her situation can improve with her parents... she will need advice on being able to do so (in another thread at another time), for right now, she needs to focus on finishing this year's class first... I believe that if I can help make happen for her what I wished was available for me, and help her avoid the setbacks and frack-ups that got me off track so that she can realize her dreams, then all the ->-bleeped-<- that I went through in my past was worth it.
So with that, lets get back to how things were before all this mess. lets just clean off that slate. When shes ready, she can start over (with big sis helping her).
If you want to talk or know more about it, send me a private message.
Mel
Well said Mel. Thank you for your thoughtful reply and your helpful actions.
Quote from: Tori on March 02, 2012, 04:31:38 PM
Well said Mel. Thank you for your thoughtful reply and your helpful actions.
thanks, u too Tori! Mahalo :)
And thanks also to V M, Cindy, and the rest of the staff and users that were concerned for her too and helped me with advice privately about how to address the situation. :)
now, back2^ find z sleeper trolls...
Quote from: veritatemfurto on March 02, 2012, 06:39:13 PM
thanks, u too Tori! Mahalo :)
And thanks also to V M, Cindy, and the rest of the staff and users that were concerned for her too and helped me with advice privately about how to address the situation. :)
Admittedly, I suggested the 'Big Sister' mentoring thing :) But truly, you made the time and effort to take action and support our young sister and I applaud you :)
You understand that it is not about placing blame or cheer leading or politics, It is about being a friend and being supportive of each other
The infighting here is human nature. It IS annoying but we are a sort of family and everybody knows you fight with those you are close to. As long as there are forums, there will be people debating and trying to "win" that is the very definition of a forum.
The problem comes from the nature of our discussions and this community's tendency to feel dysphoric over any number of things. People come here to share their vulnerabilities. Stay here long enough, and you will step on someone's toes (intentional or no).
It is a sad truth that most people would rather be told they are right than just listen to the needs of another. I often fit into this category. That must make me an elitist of some sort... no? :)
We have SO many sub-categories in this community. More types of trans than LGB combined I'd wager because we include all of the LGBT sub-categories as well. Yet trans-folk are relatively rare.
... ans so on...
:)
I DIDN'T HEAR ABOUT ANYONE HAVING A PROBLEM HERE IN THE LAST WEEK. I pray they are ok!
I have a difficult time understanding the infighting. As many other have said, it is human nature. Yet, as a group, we do have the unique ability to view and experience the world from at least perspectives. We know, or at least I sure hope we do, that as much as gender is not binary, neither is "The" solution to the multi-variable multi-order equation. Each of ours is unique. Many have searched for and found tools and answers to resolve their unique life problems. Unfortunately, since it was such a deeply emotional experience, it tends to lead to dogma.
I think the only "One size fits all" solution for all of us is outreach. Knowing you are not alone, not an anomaly, and that there others that have lived through or are living through many of the same issues as you are and are willing to share that knowledge to help with your personal pain. Be it Susan's, other forums, friends, family, lovers, or a good therapist.