So far I had 3-4 potential boyfriends... all of them couldn't accept me after telling them right away, before dating, that I was born a boy, and still have a penis .... I met my first actual BF that I dated was 3 weeks ago, we dated for 2 weeks, he was the nicest guy ever, he seemed to be really serious about our relationship... And my feelings grew for him, things went really fast, I knew I had to tell him before we get intimate... So last Sunday, after dinner with him and him driving me home, before dropping me off, he wanted to hug and kiss me, I held back..
I finally told him... I didn't tell him directly tho. I went into it first mentioning how sad my childhood was and how I was bullied and stuff, then I told him I have a disease.. that caused my unability to conceive a child. He responded immidiately saying that I shouldnt blame myself, and we could adopt kids if we really wanted to... then he asked about the disease, I took me some deep breaths.. and a few drop of tears... I finally told him I was born a boy.
He was puzzled, and was silent for few minutes, then he finally asked how this all happened, I told him everything. He said that he needs some time alone to think. Next day I got his message.. "I'm sorry, I can't accept the fact that you are biologically male. You are a really nice girl, I hope you can find someone that can accept you one day. We still can be friends, call me if you need my help.".. I skipped classes and cried on my bed for a long time.. It really sucks how he can accept a infertile girl.. but not a TS
IDK I really lost hope in dating... I just want to know some of you girl's experiences on dating, wether being rejected or accepted, and how long did that take you? and wether guys are more ok with you being post-op?
To avoid getting too invested i tell them right away. It does hurt getting rejected. My current b4 i posted on f4m craigslist. Its not the best way but it works sometimes. We are very serious and are planning on marriage? But some guys who are very comfortable with who they are will accept you. I met this guy i eventually told him after talking for an hr. He said i would give you a chance. For him if i didnt sound feel or look like a girl he wouldnt. We ended up making out after meeting the next time and he actually touched me there. In his words it will take getting used to but hes ok with it. It does take time to meet the right one. But im not sure when you tell a guy but for me its right away. dating and being trans sucks and you will have alot of heartache unfortunately....
Since October I've been rejected by about 15 girls, and I'm starting to get used to it. The repetition and predictability is making me numb to it.
I hate dating, and I hate meeting people once that I'll never meet again. Dating is the worst and most alien feeling to me, worse even than the feeling of being a man. My one wish is to be married to someone who would also be my best friend for life, and who would never ever leave me.
Quote from: Natalie <3 on November 17, 2011, 01:21:11 AM
To avoid getting too invested i tell them right away. It does hurt getting rejected. My current b4 i posted on f4m craigslist. Its not the best way but it works sometimes. We are very serious and are planning on marriage? But some guys who are very comfortable with who they are will accept you. I met this guy i eventually told him after talking for an hr. He said i would give you a chance. For him if i didnt sound feel or look like a girl he wouldnt. We ended up making out after meeting the next time and he actually touched me there. In his words it will take getting used to but hes ok with it. It does take time to meet the right one. But im not sure when you tell a guy but for me its right away. dating and being trans sucks and you will have alot of heartache unfortunately....
Thanks for your advice ^^ I never knew theres a dating section on craigslist, I'm not a fan of online dating tho.. I think theres too much risk, and I'm not really desperate for it. Good luck to you and your BF ^^
Quote from: Lily on November 17, 2011, 01:33:46 AM
Since October I've been rejected by about 15 girls, and I'm starting to get used to it. The repetition and predictability is making me numb to it.
I hate dating, and I hate meeting people once that I'll never meet again. Dating is the worst and most alien feeling to me, worse even than the feeling of being a man. My one wish is to be married to someone who would also be my best friend for life, and who would never ever leave me.
I think its even harder to find a GF, cuz firstly she has to be lesbian/bi, and secondly she has to accept you being trans. To me tho... being a man is worse than dating, I'm not really desperate for a BF but it just hurts when I think that many relationships could have happen if I had a vagina
but it just hurts when I think that many relationships could have happen if I had a vagina
I don't know whether to applaud this or boo it.
It sucks thinking that way.
But it's true.
Quote from: Lily on November 17, 2011, 01:33:46 AM
Since October I've been rejected by about 15 girls
I think you are not being selective enough.
Lol am i the only girl that thinks the guy doesn't need to know this?!?! Seriously why would you want to admit being trans to a guy? =/
I think not telling him is a good way to test a guy and see if he's just interested in sex or if he really likes you, make him work for it. ;)
If you're not planning on getting SRS in the near future then i could understand telling him, but other then that nah he doesn't need to know my past.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 03:30:20 AM
Lol am i the only girl that thinks the guy doesn't need to know this?!?!
The thing is, there is NO man who agrees with you on this....
If you want to blindly ignore that this is a huge issue for a lot of people... then you are creating a very dangerous sittuation for yourself....
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 03:30:20 AM
Lol am i the only girl that thinks the guy doesn't need to know this?!?! Seriously why would you want to admit being trans to a guy? =/
I think not telling him is a good way to test a guy and see if he's just interested in sex or if he really likes you, make him work for it. ;)
If you're not planning on getting SRS in the near future then i could understand telling him, but other then that nah he doesn't need to know my past.
I think its a big mistake not to be upfront about it before accepting a date and especially before any physical contact. Even the most seemingly laid back guy can go ballistic if someone makes them question their own view of their sexual orientation in any way.
Not to mention, why would you want to date or be with someone that you can't be open about your past with? Better to lose them early than deal with the fallout later.
Me? I don't date currently, haven't for a long time. I'd rather be alone than deal with it all right now, especially living where I do. Not to mention, there are some who are going out of their way to make sure people know that I'm just a "thing" or a dude. Its amazing how people that have crappy lives go out of their way to try and make other people's lives just as crappy as theirs, sad really, but a reality and working with the public makes me a little easier target for some of them.
Quote from: Rabbit on November 17, 2011, 03:55:33 AM
The thing is, there is NO man who agrees with you on this....
If you want to blindly ignore that this is a huge issue for a lot of people... then you are creating a very dangerous sittuation for yourself....
+1
To the OP, maybe you're telling them too soon? You're probably not giving the guy enough time to REALLY get to know you. In any case, you will come across the right guy some day. I was in your shoes. And now I've been with my partner for 5 years. Sometimes things happen when you least expect it.
Quote from: Rabbit on November 17, 2011, 03:55:33 AM
The thing is, there is NO man who agrees with you on this....
If you want to blindly ignore that this is a huge issue for a lot of people... then you are creating a very dangerous sittuation for yourself....
This is really really true.
Also to the OP I think the way you are presenting it is very confusing and manipulative. I say that with a big hug hug hug and I don't think you mean to do it that way.
If you tell someone that you were born with a disease and that you can't have children that really makes the other person feel bad for you and takes them into thinking "How sad, this poor girl can't have kids" it's almost creating an idea that you are ultra female and then so sad because you can't have children.
Then you turn it and say you were born biologically a male and it's basically a mind bomb to the other person. Almost like a bait and switch. I do think you should be careful or you could get physically hurt.
The other thing is to maybe consider how you feel about your sexual organs. Some guys might assume you want to use your penis in sex. Some people do want to and some don't.
I'd try to talk to more MtF to find a better way of coming across with this. IMO it would be better to straight away tell the guy you were born a male but are transitioning to female.
Good luck!
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 03:30:20 AM
Lol am i the only girl that thinks the guy doesn't need to know this?!?! Seriously why would you want to admit being trans to a guy? =/
I think not telling him is a good way to test a guy and see if he's just interested in sex or if he really likes you, make him work for it. ;)
If you're not planning on getting SRS in the near future then i could understand telling him, but other then that nah he doesn't need to know my past.
Even post-SRS, there is a risk of the guy finding out the truth. In fact, I'm almost certain at some point in the relationship, the truth will come out...and I don't necessarily mean from word of
your mouth. Despite my complete understanding of your point of view, because I've often told myself when my transition is complete that I'll live stealth, it just simply doesn't always work. Nonetheless, I respect your point of view. If it works for you, that's awesome.
Your story is so sad, lonelygirl. Telling him you can't conceive sounds nice on paper; it must have been hard for him to hear the part about you being born a boy, though. Isn't it hard to tell a guy? I can only imagine.
Guys come up and hit on me often and I could never imagine telling one of these guys that I was born a boy. Though, after getting really close to someone, then you sort of have to tell them, right? Or just completely withhold from sex and intimacy, which most guys would hate (there are a lot of girls out there who would put out at the drop of a hat, right?). Rukio, I agree with you sort of. I would NOT tell a guy, but I'm 100% sure the guy would want to know. Ahhh! It's such a confusing situation.
Quote from: ZeldaHeart on November 17, 2011, 04:59:09 PM
Rukia, I agree with you sort of. I would NOT tell a guy, but I'm 100% sure the guy would want to know. Ahhh! It's such a confusing situation.
Well what he doesn't know won't hurt him i mean it's not like you're cheating on the poor guy or anything like that. :D
The point of me transitioning was to forget my past and start a new life...why would i want to reveal something that contradicts that?
Idk i just think it's a bad idea but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 07:06:05 PM
Well what he doesn't know won't hurt him i mean it's not like you're cheating on the poor guy or anything like that. :D
The point of me transitioning was to forget my past and start a new life...why would i want to reveal something that contradicts that?
Idk i just think it's a bad idea but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
I think the problem with not telling is that it IS going to become known at some point, there's just no way around that. Even if you do everything perfect yourself, family or old friends may slip up or something like that.
And when that happens, you'll have to deal with not only him trying to process the whole situation, but he will also believe that you lied to him about pretty much your entire youth and whatnot.
I think it really depends on the situation and the people involved when you should tell, but you do have to tell at some point, else you're just setting yourself up for disaster.
Quote from: Lynn on November 17, 2011, 07:21:49 PM
I think the problem with not telling is that it IS going to become known at some point, there's just no way around that. Even if you do everything perfect yourself, family or old friends may slip up or something like that.
And when that happens, you'll have to deal with not only him trying to process the whole situation, but he will also believe that you lied to him about pretty much your entire youth and whatnot.
I think it really depends on the situation and the people involved when you should tell, but you do have to tell at some point, else you're just setting yourself up for disaster.
I have to disagree Lynn, by going stealth you avoid all of this. Many trans women have done this, it's alot of work changing all your documents and getting rid of anything that links you to your past, leaving all your family and friends behind etc etc. There is always a chance someone will found out but it's certainly not impossible.
To the OP, if you're really set on telling guys you date that you're trans then i think your best bet for not being rejected is to wait until you have had genital surgery. Most guys only care about sex soooo if you tell him you're trans but have already had surgery that might lessen the blow with him thinking "well at least we can have sex" it's sad but true. :(
i am so touch by your story, I wish I could hold you kiss you and hug you, and better yet, find you a boy to love you, Hang in there girl ! You are bountiful, you will find somebody
Jen61
You should try to get to know the person for at least a little while, just to get information *about* them. You need to find out if they're okay with YOU and who you are first, before anything else.
Or not. But then you face more of a chance to be rejected, and being rejected hurts.
It's very sad for me to read a post like this because I believe there are a lot of men out there (myself included!) who are open to the idea of relationships with trans women. There are several dating websites, some good and some bad, that cater to this segment; I really think you might be pleasantly surprised if you try one of them. Why not post an ad and see what type of responses you get? Online dating does have an element of risk, but I don't think it's any more so than traditional dating if you take the proper precautions. At least on a site that is aimed towards trans dating, you know that a guy is interested in you in spite of being trans, and you don't have to deal with all of the pressures of talking about your past.
If you're truly set on traditional dating, my recommendation is to be honest from the very beginning. True you will probably be hurt many times, but at least you won't become so attached to someone that rejection is that much worse. Sooner or later you will meet someone who is accepting.
Well Brad, that's nice advice, but those guys aren't into transgendered/transsexuals "in spite" of of someone being trans. It's BECAUSE they're trans that the guy would be interested. That is creepy in my opinion. Like, turning someone into an object of desire.
Quote from: ZeldaHeart on November 17, 2011, 09:51:58 PM
Well Brad, that's nice advice, but those guys aren't into transgendered/transsexuals "in spite" of of someone being trans. It's BECAUSE they're trans that the guy would be interested. That is creepy in my opinion. Like, turning someone into an object of desire.
I want to say I agree but this is how most men think about women in the first place ::)
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 03:30:20 AM
Lol am i the only girl that thinks the guy doesn't need to know this?!?! Seriously why would you want to admit being trans to a guy? =/
I think not telling him is a good way to test a guy and see if he's just interested in sex or if he really likes you, make him work for it. ;)
I've been exploring the sea. I can get a date with no issue. Guys ask me out on the street, at the store, etc. But every guy I've told so far rejects me. I've learned not to clue them in early or anything else. One guy figured it out and was like, "you're cute, but I assumed you were a biological female and I'm not into you now because you were born male". He was this ultra straight guy.. and I straight up asked him, "are you into trans?" and he said, "Not at all". I thought since he was so horny for me he'd accept me. But I sent him into crying game mode.
I prefer bi/gay men...even though I've yet to find a man besides Dustin who was into me and he's dead. :*(
I mean I have a boyfriend...but he's married and kind of a jerk. We argued over me changing my hair FOR MY BIRTHDAY TONIGHT!
Why is it creepy for a person to be attracted to something specific about you? Isn't it the same as someone being attracted to redheads? It's just a preference, and we all have them.
Or is there something wrong with being attracted to transgirls?
Quote from: Lily on November 18, 2011, 12:25:24 AM
Why is it creepy for a person to be attracted to something specific about you? Isn't it the same as someone being attracted to redheads? It's just a preference, and we all have them.
Or is there something wrong with being attracted to transgirls?
I like curry. If my boyfriend buys me curry, I am not gonna be like "I DON'T WANT IT" even though I love to eat it.
Therefore, these guys want bio girls not transgirls. They wouldn't waste their time dating them.
Quote from: Lily on November 18, 2011, 12:25:24 AM
Why is it creepy for a person to be attracted to something specific about you? Isn't it the same as someone being attracted to redheads? It's just a preference, and we all have them.
Or is there something wrong with being attracted to transgirls?
Yea, I never understood this either how so many are against a guy liking them because they are trans.
The best guess I have been able to come up with is that a lot of trans girls believe somewhere in their minds that being trans is bad. They can't stand living as they are in "male" and being "trans" is dirty... so that only leaves them with the binary option of being 100 percent female (or, in their minds, "normal").
The thing is, trans people have been around in history for as long as humans have been around. It is found in animals (such as clown fish) and a variety of other things.... it is natural... just western culture has tried so hard to cover it up as "dirty" that we don't realize just how natural it is.
It would be like if western culture made you feel guilty for wanting to have sex ...oh wait... yea, they do that too... o.O Disconnect from reality isn't really in societies best interest...
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 07:06:05 PM
Well what he doesn't know won't hurt him i mean it's not like you're cheating on the poor guy or anything like that. :D
I agree, as a non-trans person. He doesn't need to know.
I've written about this before. If my wife tried to go stealth, I would have found out eventually. I'm glad she told me, as when the inevitable happened it was no big deal and I could support her rather than be shocked/horrified/whatever-horrible-reaction.
I never planned on dating anyone but a non-trans female. I certainly wasn't chasing. I also wasn't seeking a guy! The reality was that I never even thought about dating trans people (and I'd probably say that some guy who has thought of it probably is seeking people for the wrong reasons). Maybe I thought "trans people just don't date" or some hogwash like that. But my wife told me about her past before we even started to date and I had to figure out what I believed and thought - something that I never thought about previously. Obviously I decided that not dating someone because they needed cosmetic surgery was a pretty stupid reason to not date someone.
I'm glad she took that risk with me - I can't imagine how horrible it is to feel the need to share something that personal and that painful. And she didn't have to. But I think it was good that she did and showed a lot of trust in me. It's nice to not have secrets in our relationship. I feel the same way about past financial troubles, past relationships, any medical conditions, etc - things we wouldn't share with almost anyone else.
As for the OP, I truly hope you find the right guy. I'm sure there is someone out there, but it can be hard to find him. I'm in my 40s and my wife is my first serious relationship so I understand a tiny bit.
Quote from: Rabbit on November 18, 2011, 12:38:38 AM
Yea, I never understood this either how so many are against a guy liking them because they are trans.
Because some of us see ourselves as women and don't want to be 'othered' before the relationship even started?
Being attracted to our dicks is a major turn off for many so that's why it's a problem.
I have a few things to say in response to your post, lonelygirl.
First of all, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I can see from your avatar picture that you are very pretty and passable so I know that this must be a difficult issue with you since guys are probably attracted to you! I have some experience in this area, but as a post-op girl.
First off, it sounds like your relationship with him was going awfully fast. The fact that he was willing to talk about adopting kids and marriage with you after 2 weeks is somewhat of a red flag to me. I think if those conversations come up too early, they aren't really all that genuine. You can't talk seriously about the future until you really know/love someone in my opinion. Maybe try saving those serious conversations for later.
As for the disclosure of your trans status, I would say just feel it out and tell him when YOU are comfortable. From what it sounds like, you told him in tears and probably felt ashamed and embarrassed while disclosing. I think this makes a huge difference. I have told people I've dated (both male and female) but always told them in a confident manner. "This is my past, and it has shaped me into the person I am today. It has made me stronger and more mature. I am proud of that." Carrying yourself with confidence is KEY. If you want someone to accept you as you are, you have to show that you accept yourself.
As for the question of being post-op vs. pre-op, I can't really answer that. I never dated when I was pre-op but would imagine it would be much more urgent to tell the person, since sex will obviously come into play at some point in the relationship and they will have to know. I would imagine it may be easier for a guy who is straight to accept a trans girl who is post op since they wouldn't have to get used to male genitalia. However, I don't think that as a pre-op girl, there are no men who will accept you. Keep looking! He's out there! Just be confident and radiate self-love when you're telling. That's my advice.
Quote from: AndromedaVox on November 18, 2011, 10:58:49 AM
As for the disclosure of your trans status, I would say just feel it out and tell him when YOU are comfortable. From what it sounds like, you told him in tears and probably felt ashamed and embarrassed while disclosing. I think this makes a huge difference. I have told people I've dated (both male and female) but always told them in a confident manner. "This is my past, and it has shaped me into the person I am today. It has made me stronger and more mature. I am proud of that." Carrying yourself with confidence is KEY. If you want someone to accept you as you are, you have to show that you accept yourself.
I'd agree with this. Confidence is sexy (arrogance is not, but that's not what I'm talking about). Lack of confidence is a turn-off.
If someone came across in tears and been obviously embarrassed/ashamed, I also think that gives validity to the other person deciding that it's big enough to decide to leave the relationship. If it is said confidently, I think it's psychologically gives the other person less validity in leaving.
Oh, if you are fortunate to live in a place where you can change your legal documentation and have done so, you might leave your driver's license hanging around somewhere where he can sneak a peak at the sex/gender designation and see that the state sees you as a woman - that will help grant legitimacy in his eyes to what you are saying - I suspect most men are like I was and have no idea what to think when someone says they are trans, but seeing something "official" would lend it legitimacy. Obviously I wouldn't do that if the information wasn't accurate and didn't reflect who you are. I know, it's lousy that things work this way when other women wouldn't have to do stuff like that. I hope one day we get past that garbage as a society and people can be free in themselves to date someone that they are attracted to.
Quote from: Lily on November 18, 2011, 12:25:24 AM
Why is it creepy for a person to be attracted to something specific about you? Isn't it the same as someone being attracted to redheads? It's just a preference, and we all have them.
Or is there something wrong with being attracted to transgirls?
No, there is nothing wrong at all with being attracted to T-persons as long as you are not attracted to them only because they have a certain "set" between the legs, which yet too often is the only reason why many so called ->-bleeped-<-->-bleeped-<-s goes after T-persons.
Yes, there ARE good ->-bleeped-<-->-bleeped-<-s too, but unfortunately the bad ones give the whole lot a bad reputation.
Between the 00:43 and 2:54-mark, Nikki explains further the too typical problem with ->-bleeped-<-s; www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ifY6U7DRxM# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ifY6U7DRxM#)]new update oct 2009
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 03:30:20 AM
Lol am i the only girl that thinks the guy doesn't need to know this?!?! Seriously why would you want to admit being trans to a guy? =/
I think not telling him is a good way to test a guy and see if he's just interested in sex or if he really likes you, make him work for it. ;)
If you're not planning on getting SRS in the near future then i could understand telling him, but other then that nah he doesn't need to know my past.
While I do not think you are the only trans who think this, a lot of trans and almost every person you would want to date will disagree with your logic.
Being born genetically male and switching to female isn't like you got chickenpox when you were a kid or that your right foot is a prosthetic. So saying "they don't need to know my past" and comparing it to any other medical condition is very presumptuous when comparing it to transsexualism.
In an ideal world where there is world peace, religious acceptance of all faiths, love abounding to and fro then your logic is sound and makes sense. On this planet, currently, your logic can can get someone killed.
Many men and women do not fully understand the mentality of being a female. The only ones who do fully understand the mentality of transsexuals are "most" transsexuals and their allies. That understanding and sympathy does not trickle down so easily.
Also, there are men and women who have no desire to date a trans. And there is nothing wrong with their specific sexual attraction. If they do not find your genetic disposition as something they can live with then you know it wasn't meant to be.
Hiding who you are under a shroud of "it's none of their business" is very selfish. It IS their business. These men and women who date you puts their hearts on the line to be with you. Many desire honesty in the relationship and if you hold back who you are then you are not being honest with them...and, to me, it shows that you do not trust them enough to take the news and still accept you for who you are. Not to mention, it is dangerous to deceive people when it comes to sexuality and gender. People kill over that sh*t.
To the OP: I do not tell the guy that I am trans if I casually walk up and say hi. However, if there is a slightest hint he is romantically interested in me I do tell him. I have lost guys that way and that is the truth. However, I have also kept guys and I knew before our first date that they are open about me and I do not have to prepare them for "the talk" after they started to fall for me more seriously.
I suggest OKCupid over craigslist. Okcupid is a free dating site and very reputable. I have dated some wonderful men and women from okcupid since "I came out."
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 07:47:42 PM
I have to disagree Lynn, by going stealth you avoid all of this. Many trans women have done this, it's alot of work changing all your documents and getting rid of anything that links you to your past, leaving all your family and friends behind etc etc. There is always a chance someone will found out but it's certainly not impossible.
To the OP, if you're really set on telling guys you date that you're trans then i think your best bet for not being rejected is to wait until you have had genital surgery. Most guys only care about sex soooo if you tell him you're trans but have already had surgery that might lessen the blow with him thinking "well at least we can have sex" it's sad but true. :(
That's a complete misnomer.
The only way you can "hide" what you were genetically born as from a guy is by completely separating yourself from your family. Separate yourself from your friends who knew you before (because one of them can slip and mention something to your bf), and to keep him away from ALL and any hospital visits that you have to go to.
Also, I am stealth. My last job saw my prior male name when they ran a criminal background search...and I am legally and officially a female with the legal name of Annah. Don't assume there is a such thing as complete stealth because there isn't. Your boyfriend will find out and when he does, the only thing he will be thinking about is "why didn't you tell me these many years" versus "aww it's ok...it's her business....not mine."
It's your life and you can do whatever you want with it....just be careful giving advice to girls on this subject matter because I think it's unwise advice and it can get someone killed.
Also, to put into perspective: I have not met one transgirl yet who has dated a man or a woman for over ten years where the man never found out...whether through an accident or by her lips. Not one.
Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 18, 2011, 10:43:25 AM
Being attracted to our dicks is a major turn off for many so that's why it's a problem.
If a guy was attracted to our dicks, he'd stick around. Men would not waste their time talking to a transgirls unless they 1) didn't know 2) were a ->-bleeped-<-.
If a ->-bleeped-<- is chasing a transgirl, he usually wants to catch her. Men are guided by hormones, not by "oh, she was born male". Most men I've met are repulsed by it and felt I "trapped" them.
Men who like more androgynous features, penises, etc are BI. Straight men don't play around....
I remember this one time I was walking to my car from the club and this straight guy drives by, rolls down his window, and was like, "wow look at that ass..have you had surgery yet"?...I said, "no", and he was like "damn" and drove off.
Quote from: Annah on November 18, 2011, 12:15:51 PM
The only way you can "hide" what you were genetically born as from a guy is by completely separating yourself from your family. Separate yourself from your friends who knew you before (because one of them can slip and mention something to your bf), and to keep him away from ALL and any hospital visits that you have to go to.
Also, I am stealth. My last job saw my prior male name when they ran a criminal background search...and I am legally and officially a female with the legal name of Annah. Don't assume there is a such thing as complete stealth because there isn't. Your boyfriend will find out and when he does, the only thing he will be thinking about is "why didn't you tell me these many years" versus "aww it's ok...it's her business....not mine."
I agree about that. I can think of 10 ways I can find my wife's birth name and what indication was on her birth certificate. And she's made a clean break from her past, legally done what is needed, etc. I'm not going to go into how you could find whole lists of people who have done this legally, as I think that would put people at risk - but likewise I think people do need to know that the risk is there.
Quote from: Elle Le Interdit
If a guy was attracted to our dicks, he'd stick around. Men would not waste their time talking to a transgirls unless they 1) didn't know 2) were a ->-bleeped-<-.
That is a stereotype that is not universally true. Even for guys not attracted to a penis, that doesn't mean every straight guy would leave. It may be true much of the time, but certainly not all the time.
I should add that straight men if they are going to be with a TS...want someone who is passable, attractive, etc. Jocks don't typically date "nerdy" girls. The men I typically know can handle some masculine features within a certain level of androgyny. But presentation is the most important thing. I present myself as a babe, as any other girl my age/subculture does. It requires so much work to look like this way and I am fine with it.
I've dated jocks, bros, homies, etc...all guys who are ultra masculine. The kind of guys who would freak out of if they knew I had a penis. I mean I've told men and they freaked out...even men I've met casually in public, I've told and they assumed it was a joke. Men are driven by their hormones... and if they were to date a ts it would be based on their general preference of how a female should look. Having been around fanboys, and not exactly meeting their "criteria"(which btw is unrealistic and WAY OUT OF THEIR LEAGUE). Most men are harsh if a TS doesn't meet a certain standard.
So Lily, men generally are after the female...Not what the female was. American culture sees men who like, date, admire TS's as GAY. It is an unfortunate reality... Men have lost their families, friends, and been assaulted for having relationships with ts's/
Not all but some not some but all.
I told most friends im TS, so I kinda asked my straight male friends, in a hypothetical situation, if their GF came out to be trans like me, will they be ok with it... and pretty much I got 1 in 10 that would be fine with it... Chances are really rare
Quote from: lonely girl on November 18, 2011, 12:56:17 PMChances are really rare
Sort of like hitting the megamillion.
do you think if I'm beautiful enough (with surgeries) they can overlook that fact? :-\ Most really pretty TS i know are dating
I don't think it's just a matter of how attractive someone is. Certainly, someone attractive can get more looks and interest. But I don't think that's the only way to attract a guy. It probably depends on who you are trying to attract.
It depends on the kind of relationships you want. If you want relationships with extremely attractive people, and that's your main criteria, it's not surprising if they would want the same thing in you. But not everyone is seeking that.
I find my wife attractive, but there are plenty of people I wouldn't have dated who are very attractive - looks were not anywhere close to the top of my list. I was looking for someone who was interesting to be with, had a sense of humor, was attracted to me, and had most of their life in order, and who was mature. Different people want different things, but it's not fair or right to say all straight guys (or even masculine guys) want the same things.
Certainly someone who prioritizes how people see them (their image) above the characteristics I mentioned would want someone that furthers that image, which I accept. I just hope that people won't think that everyone is in that category. (note that I don't think my priorities are any better or worse than anyone else's - this type of thing is probably likely personal and likely at least somewhat hardwired, but not necessarily related to how masculine or straight a guy is)
Quote from: lonely girl on November 18, 2011, 01:01:53 PM
do you think if I'm beautiful enough (with surgeries) they can overlook that fact? :-\ Most really pretty TS i know are dating
Girl, you look cisgender and this is coming from someone who has made enemies by being too honest here.
Quote from: lonely girl on November 18, 2011, 01:01:53 PM
do you think if I'm beautiful enough (with surgeries) they can overlook that fact? :-\ Most really pretty TS i know are dating
If that's you in the avatar pic, you are already beautiful.
Quote from: Annah on November 18, 2011, 12:15:51 PM
Also, I am stealth.
:laugh:
QuoteAlso, to put into perspective: I have not met one transgirl yet who has dated a man or a woman for over ten years where the man never found out...whether through an accident or by her lips. Not one.
And you probably never will because they're stealth....
Quote from: lonely girl on November 18, 2011, 01:01:53 PM
do you think if I'm beautiful enough (with surgeries) they can overlook that fact? :-\ Most really pretty TS i know are dating
Yeah you look really pretty lonely girl. I think if you have surgery and meet the right guy things will pick up for you!
xo
Aww thank you girls for your kind words ^^ I have many flaws that I want to get fixed tho, other than that thing down there
Quote from: Lily on November 17, 2011, 01:33:46 AM
Since October I've been rejected by about 15 girls, and I'm starting to get used to it. The repetition and predictability is making me numb to it.
I hate dating, and I hate meeting people once that I'll never meet again. Dating is the worst and most alien feeling to me, worse even than the feeling of being a man. My one wish is to be married to someone who would also be my best friend for life, and who would never ever leave me.
Do you think that could be because you just started and don't quite present as fully female yet? Lesbians are like any other woman.... If you are going after lesbians now at this point when you don't quite look the party. They won't be into you...Just like straight men weren't into me when I first started.
Give it some time and revisit it later after more HRT.
Quote from: Elle Le Interdit on November 18, 2011, 05:53:41 PM
Do you think that could be because you just started and don't quite present as fully female yet? Lesbians are like any other woman.... If you are going after lesbians now at this point when you don't quite look the party. They won't be into you...Just like straight men weren't into me when I first started.
Give it some time and revisit it later after more HRT.
I'm never the one to initiate contact. These are girls who see my pic and send me a message saying they're interested but then stop when I say I'm trans.
I say on my profile that I am not gender conforming and that I'll give more info on that when messaged, but none of them seem to bother to read what I wrote.
Quote from: ZeldaHeart on November 17, 2011, 09:51:58 PM
Well Brad, that's nice advice, but those guys aren't into transgendered/transsexuals "in spite" of of someone being trans. It's BECAUSE they're trans that the guy would be interested. That is creepy in my opinion. Like, turning someone into an object of desire.
I think you're responding to my post. This attitude sounds to me like a recipe for much sadness all around. There are plenty of guys out there who are good and decent and are interested in a relationship beyond what's down below. I have always been open to the idea of being in a relationship with a post-operative trans woman and, although I could see myself being involved with someone who is pre-operative and intending to have the surgery, I have never gone chasing after someone because they are pre-operative. I am attracted to trans women the same way that I am attracted to genetic women, and I don't consider this to "creepy". I wish there was a way that guys like me could prove that as it probably would have saved me a lot of mental anguish over the years; but, then again, that would probably make like too easy... :-)
I just have to say I'm not a fan of the fatalistic attitudes about transwomen dating. When I first started reading trans forums and stuff as a teenager I thought I was doomed to a life of singledom. But then when I started actually dating and meeting people I realized that there are a lot of open minded people out there who will look past it.
I have dated/met guys who haven't cared about my past, yet I didn't just run and marry them just because I thought they would be the "only" guy out there who would accept me. I don't believe that ALL straight men will reject me for being trans, and I think that belief is both harmful and untrue. We aren't going to find love and acceptance from others if we can't love and accept ourselves. We are transwomen, we are strong and we are beautiful. We have nothing to be ashamed of.
You are young, so why not just date without any expectations of finding a life partner. Two weeks is hardly long enough to get to know someone properly, so don't beat yourself up over the breakup.
The guys you are dating are young too, and still being fairly insecure in their own identity and sexuality, will have issues of their own that get in the way. If that is the case, just move on to the next one.
I'd just have fun with no preconceived expectations of where anything is going to lead.
At least you are dating! I have found that being a Femme Translesbian makes you doubly invisible.
Quote from: lonely girl on November 18, 2011, 01:01:53 PM
do you think if I'm beautiful enough (with surgeries) they can overlook that fact? :-\ Most really pretty TS i know are dating
Umm.. Are you serious? O.O you look great now!
I know of one guy who doesnt seem to have an issue with wanting to date a trans woman. Well, 2 actually. The 1st is still single and has aspirations of me getting a divorce and dating me. You're welcome to date him if you like. I'm still happily married and even if my marriage fails, I'm NEVER dating again. too much hassle.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 03:30:20 AM
Lol am i the only girl that thinks the guy doesn't need to know this?!?! Seriously why would you want to admit being trans to a guy? =/
I think not telling him is a good way to test a guy and see if he's just interested in sex or if he really likes you, make him work for it. ;)
If you're not planning on getting SRS in the near future then i could understand telling him, but other then that nah he doesn't need to know my past.
Ugh, if I have to keep such a big secret in order for him to stay with me, then I don't even want to be with him. I think honesty is very important in a relationship.
I agree with Trista wholeheartedly. Being with someone for life is an amazing thing when you can trust them with your soul. I would disclose to guys... even if the information shouldn't really change anything. A part of the logic is that he would find out eventually, but equally powerful is the desire to have an open, trusting relationship - one where we both know every single thing about each other. Keeping a secret like this destroys trust, I find, at least for the person keeping the secret.
I couldn't enjoy spending forever with someone whom I feared. If their finding this out about me would destroy the relationship, I would deserve better than them. He may not need to know, but when you find one that embraces it, and loves you for all you are... the relationship is priceless gold.
Maybe I'm crazy, but witholding this feels dishonest. And I hate feeling dishonest.
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 17, 2011, 03:30:20 AM
Lol am i the only girl that thinks the guy doesn't need to know this?!?! Seriously why would you want to admit being trans to a guy? =/
I think not telling him is a good way to test a guy and see if he's just interested in sex or if he really likes you, make him work for it. ;)
If you're not planning on getting SRS in the near future then i could understand telling him, but other then that nah he doesn't need to know my past.
I wish it were that simple, but I have to strongly disagree with you because I personally know that it is not.
As others have already said, unless you 1) separate yourself from your family, friends and anyone else who knew you prior to transitioning, 2) destroy all history of your life prior to transitioning and invent a fake background, and 3) are able to grapple with
hiding something from the person you claim to love and who says they love you forever, they will probably eventually find out. Even then, they might still. And it will probably be ugly if it turns into "YOU'VE BEEN LYING TO ME FOR 10 YEARS????"
My personal anecdote:
At one point in the spring I got a job as a waitress at a restaurant. I had moved to a different state. I'm fortunate enough that people don't recognize me as trans, and I didn't see any reason to tell my new bosses or coworkers. On what was literally my 3rd day working there, someone I went to high school with (in another state, and a class of just over 500 people) walks through the door.
While my face and body had certainly changed a lot in the 4 years since I'd seen him, I'm otherwise still the same person. I have the same mannerisms, expressions, voice, and apparently my eyes have the same look about them as well. While I obviously look female to someone I don't know, it wasn't too hard for someone who interacted with me on a daily basis in the past to make the connection. Sadly, he happened to mention it to another waitress, and by the next day, everyone who worked there knew. Suddenly, the large group of strangers I was going to be around every day from then on out
knew, and nothing I could have done would have prevented it.
Never assume people will
never know
Quote from: lonely girl on November 18, 2011, 12:56:17 PM
I told most friends im TS, so I kinda asked my straight male friends, in a hypothetical situation, if their GF came out to be trans like me, will they be ok with it... and pretty much I got 1 in 10 that would be fine with it... Chances are really rare
Actually, I would say that you basically were unlucky with asking the "wrong" people, so to say, as other t-chicks would actually rather say that
most straight guys would be okay with it.
The number "60%" have been estimated more than once by T-people, when guessing how many straight guys that would actually be okay with it.
However, there are some conditions to this and whether the guy would be okay with this matter; First and most, apparence; That the T-chick looks and acts as a natal female, as the guy after all are heterosexual. And secondly,
preferably that she is Post-op.
However, I do know that many 100% heterosexual guys have had a steady relationship with a Pre-op, but generally they are both waiting out time until she can have her surgery.
But yes,
many heterosexual guys are okay with it, so don't give up hope.
If you are on a dating platform, I would say you should tell upfront, for both your sake and theirs. I think I can say that you can have a one-night-stand without disclosing, but there's still a bit of risk if they find out later.
A lot of people meet their partners on a platform that is not focused on dating, and therefore you needn't disclose, and you may meet someone and fall mutually in love. Now, this can get tricky as to when to disclose. I do think attraction and love is pretty powerful, so even if you disclose the person will work with you - maybe a lot, maybe not so much.
I know immediate disclosure invites all sorts of undesirable types, but it's really the same for non-trans folk.
Quote from: Bishounen on November 18, 2011, 11:31:41 AM
No, there is nothing wrong at all with being attracted to T-persons as long as you are not attracted to them only because they have a certain "set" between the legs, which yet too often is the only reason why many so called ->-bleeped-<-->-bleeped-<-s goes after T-persons.
Yes, there ARE good ->-bleeped-<-->-bleeped-<-s too, but unfortunately the bad ones give the whole lot a bad reputation.
Between the 00:43 and 2:54-mark, Nikki explains further the too typical problem with ->-bleeped-<-s; www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ifY6U7DRxM# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ifY6U7DRxM#)]new update oct 2009
If I met someone who all of a sudden wants to date me more than before just because I'm trans, I wouldn't date them. Period. I'd date them because they like me, DESPITE being trans. So I don't care what excuses guys make, a ->-bleeped-<- is a ->-bleeped-<- and I'm not going to fall for one.
Quote from: sonopoly on November 19, 2011, 09:45:23 AM
If you are on a dating platform, I would say you should tell upfront, for both your sake and theirs.
Does your potential partner disclose upfront that he is a bigot that can't accept your transsexual background? If no, then why should a transsexual girl disclose upfront about her background?
My advice would be to at least get to know each other. If you get the feeling that he's a bigot, then dump him. If you get the feeling that he may be accepting, then go ahead, tell him, and pray for a good outcome. But there is no obligation to disclose whatsoever. You can even tell him that you have a 'history' and don't want to talk about it, and if he really loves you then he won't ask any further questions and accept that. No transsexual girl is being dishonest if she doesn't want to talk about her past, we really should get rid of that destructive mentality, because it implies that people have a right to know about our history. They don't. Having a transsexual past is not something that you should have to warn people for.
I also see a lot of victim blaming in threads like these. It's not the fault of a transsexual girl if not disclosing ends up in violence. It's totally the bigot's fault, and he is the one that should be blamed for that, not the girl.
Quote from: toxicblue on November 19, 2011, 10:21:07 AM
If I met someone who all of a sudden wants to date me more than before just because I'm trans, I wouldn't date them. Period. I'd date them because they like me, DESPITE being trans. So I don't care what excuses guys make, a ->-bleeped-<- is a ->-bleeped-<- and I'm not going to fall for one.
Fully understandable, as you want to be appreciated for your personality as a female and not because of your equipment.
Quote from: AndromedaVox on November 18, 2011, 10:58:49 AM
I have a few things to say in response to your post, lonelygirl.
First of all, I'm so sorry this happened to you. I can see from your avatar picture that you are very pretty and passable so I know that this must be a difficult issue with you since guys are probably attracted to you! I have some experience in this area, but as a post-op girl.
First off, it sounds like your relationship with him was going awfully fast. The fact that he was willing to talk about adopting kids and marriage with you after 2 weeks is somewhat of a red flag to me. I think if those conversations come up too early, they aren't really all that genuine. You can't talk seriously about the future until you really know/love someone in my opinion. Maybe try saving those serious conversations for later.
As for the disclosure of your trans status, I would say just feel it out and tell him when YOU are comfortable. From what it sounds like, you told him in tears and probably felt ashamed and embarrassed while disclosing. I think this makes a huge difference. I have told people I've dated (both male and female) but always told them in a confident manner. "This is my past, and it has shaped me into the person I am today. It has made me stronger and more mature. I am proud of that." Carrying yourself with confidence is KEY. If you want someone to accept you as you are, you have to show that you accept yourself.
As for the question of being post-op vs. pre-op, I can't really answer that. I never dated when I was pre-op but would imagine it would be much more urgent to tell the person, since sex will obviously come into play at some point in the relationship and they will have to know. I would imagine it may be easier for a guy who is straight to accept a trans girl who is post op since they wouldn't have to get used to male genitalia. However, I don't think that as a pre-op girl, there are no men who will accept you. Keep looking! He's out there! Just be confident and radiate self-love when you're telling. That's my advice.
This...
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on November 19, 2011, 04:30:11 AM
Ugh, if I have to keep such a big secret in order for him to stay with me, then I don't even want to be with him. I think honesty is very important in a relationship.
...and this. Totally agree!
I found the following also very helpful and encouraging (quote from tsroadmap.com):
QuoteIn the same way that a straight-acting gay person has the choice of when to come out to someone, we have the choice of when to come out if we are accepted as female. This is extremely empowering, believe me. If you are accepted as female and decide to come out to someone about your transsexualism or don't think of it as a shameful secret, you will be immune to attempts by others to hurt you with words and actions meant to make you feel like you're less than female.
I feel sorry for what has happened to you... Finding that special guy can be really hard, but it's not impossible. Sometimes love comes when it is least expected... just keep having fun and maybe dating and enjoy the journey rather than focussing on the destination (mr. right) all the time. Maybe one day you will just find that mr. right when you didn't expect him to come. I also think you are very beautiful :)
xoxo Sweetie
Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on November 19, 2011, 04:30:11 AM
Ugh, if I have to keep such a big secret in order for him to stay with me, then I don't even want to be with him. I think honesty is very important in a relationship.
K good luck finding him. :laugh:
Quote from: Butterflyhugs on November 19, 2011, 05:19:37 AM
Never assume people will never know
Don't assume they will either.
My track record is 6-0 so it works for me! ;D
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 19, 2011, 02:48:48 PM
K good luck finding him. :laugh:
Don't assume they will either.
My track record is 6-0 so it works for me! ;D
Guys are blind to their hormones. Like my brother a few years ago, hooked up with this big eared fella we'll call "CJ"...despite being a butterface, he had hot abs and acted like a straight boy on his voice mail.
So pretty much... I learned to not blab about being trans on fb...cuz men read those posts. If I mention "packing heat in the pants", I better be mentioning the side effects of a laxative.
Quote from: lonely girl on November 17, 2011, 01:34:41 AM
Thanks for your advice ^^ I never knew theres a dating section on craigslist, I'm not a fan of online dating tho.. I think theres too much risk, and I'm not really desperate for it. Good luck to you and your BF ^^
I think online dating is a much safer way to meet guys - and you do not have to have that uncomfortable "revelation"... they can read your profile first. And always - ask "have you read my profile?" before getting immersed in any conversation! Some guys just look at photos and reply right away!
Men! ::)
Quote from: Rukia87xo on November 19, 2011, 02:48:48 PM
K good luck finding him. :laugh:
My track record is 6-0 so it works for me!
Luck has nothing to do with it. I sleep better at night telling my partner the WHOLE me rather than keeping secrets from him. I know first hand that telling guys up front is not an immediate "disqualifies." I've been on my fair share of dates to disprove your logic that the only way a guy will date a trans is by hiding.
You've been on 6 dates. Good for you. I wonder how many of those dates would stick around if you told them. For me, that is the true test that a guy truly likes me. When I fell in love with my boyfriend, I fell in the with him entirely. Likewise, he fell entirely in love with me. Through and through. From bones to skin, he adores me. It isn't just a superficial "outside appearance that attracts each other but our honestly, our hearts, our minds, and our ability to share everything with each other and knowing we will still be in each others arms at the end of the day.
And since you are pre op and your six guys never knew about your genetics, then I would be safe to assume you have yet to experience a sexual relationship with them (cuz your ultra thick plan of forever in stealth will be thinner than rice paper if sex was thrown into your equation).
So, give us a jingle when you hide who you are to a guy and then have sex with him.
I give props to "lonelygirl" for telling her guys upfront. It takes a lot of character and courage to do that. Not getting the guy because the truth was shared is not weak. And I am positive she will find a guy who will just shrug his shoulders and say "I don't care. I like YOU" when she tells them. If I have gotten several men like that I know as surefire hell she will.
Better to have one guy that loves EVERYTHING about you versus the six you aren't sure of.
Quote from: Annah on November 19, 2011, 06:19:32 PM
Luck has nothing to do with it. I sleep better at night telling my partner the WHOLE me rather than keeping secrets from him. I know first hand that telling guys up front is not an immediate "disqualifies." I've been on my fair share of dates to disprove your logic that the only way a guy will date a trans is by hiding.
You've been on 6 dates. Good for you. I wonder how many of those dates would stick around if you told them. For me, that is the true test that a guy truly likes me. When I fell in love with my boyfriend, I fell in the with him entirely. Likewise, he fell entirely in love with me. Through and through. From bones to skin, he adores me. It isn't just a superficial "outside appearance that attracts each other but our honestly, our hearts, our minds, and our ability to share everything with each other and knowing we will still be in each others arms at the end of the day.
And since you are pre op and your six guys never knew about your genetics, then I would be safe to assume you have yet to experience a sexual relationship with them (cuz your ultra thick plan of forever in stealth will be thinner than rice paper if sex was thrown into your equation).
So, give us a jingle when you hide who you are to a guy and then have sex with him.
I give props to "lonelygirl" for telling her guys upfront. It takes a lot of character and courage to do that. Not getting the guy because the truth was shared is not weak. And I am positive she will find a guy who will just shrug his shoulders and say "I don't care. I like YOU" when she tells them. If I have gotten several men like that I know as surefire hell she will.
Better to have one guy that loves EVERYTHING about you versus the six you aren't sure of.
:laugh: *cough*
Quote from: MsDazzler on November 19, 2011, 04:07:23 PM
I think online dating is a much safer way to meet guys - and you do not have to have that uncomfortable "revelation"... they can read your profile first. And always - ask "have you read my profile?" before getting immersed in any conversation! Some guys just look at photos and reply right away!
Men! ::)
I agree online dating is a good way to screen (no pun intended) your date before hand.
QuoteSome guys just look at photos and reply right away!
That is sooooo true! :D
Quote from: lonely girl on November 17, 2011, 01:10:12 AM
So far I had 3-4 potential boyfriends... all of them couldn't accept me after telling them right away, before dating, that I was born a boy, and still have a penis ....
Next day I got his message.. "I'm sorry, I can't accept the fact that you are biologically male. You are a really nice girl, I hope you can find someone that can accept you one day. We still can be friends, call me if you need my help.".. I skipped classes and cried on my bed for a long time.. It really sucks how he can accept a infertile girl.. but not a TS
IDK I really lost hope in dating... I just want to know some of you girl's experiences on dating, wether being rejected or accepted, and how long did that take you? and wether guys are more ok with you being post-op?
I'm not entirely clear on the situation. When you told him the truth, did you mention that you're pre-op? While I don't have firsthand experience, I imagine that being post-op would make a huge difference. If you want to be with heterosexual guys, you must assume that they are either not sexually attracted to penises (at best) or repulsed by penises (at worst). Therefore, the fact that you still have a penis will screen out many guys who might otherwise be OK with dating someone who was "born male." Maybe the reason why your ex-boyfriend could accept an infertile girl but not a TS was because infertile natal women have vaginas, while you have a penis. (There are some heterosexual guys who are attracted to penises, but they are rare. Human sexuality is an infinitely complicated matter.)
The term "biologically male" is a red herring to me. Once you've had SRS, there will be very, very few biological differences between you and a natal woman, the main being the XY chromosomes in your cells, rather than XX. However, chromosomes alone do not determine whether one is "biologically male" or female. A small number of people are born with XXY, XXXY, and XXXXY chromosomes. If you define "biological sex" by a single pair of chromosomes, then these genetic anomalies disintegrate that definition. People who have these conditions are medically considered "male," since they always develop some male anatomical characteristics and undergo some form of male puberty. But usually the chromosomal defect also results in gender ambiguity, i.e., intersexuality. Although I know that this is not the forum for intesex talk, I'd like to note that plenty of children born with very ambiguous genitalia have been neonatally assigned to be female. And as we all know from the David Reimer scandal, not all intersex people accept neonatally-assigned genders. (BTW, I know that David was technically not IS.)
(Speaking of intersex people, they are the truly invisible gender-variant people. Most everyday people become exposed to the concept of ->-bleeped-<- every once in a while, in the forms of cross-dressers, ->-bleeped-<-s, genderqueers, drag queens/kings, and transsexuals, but they don't have a clue about intersexuality and its implications. They believe that children must be born either distinctly male or female. But although ISs are different from MTFs and FTMs, they must be included in the conversations about TS acceptance because they still have to worry about explaining what they were "before," especially since many ISs retain some of their gender-ambiguous anatomies into adulthood, despite hormone therapy and genital reconstruction. If you think that telling a partner that you're TS is hard, imagine revealing to her/him that you have male breasts, large nipples, and a micropenis, or that you have clitoris that looks like a mini penis, and that your gender was decided after you were born because it was too ambiguous at birth.)
Getting back on topic, there would be a different issue if your ex-boyfriend broke-up with you just because you're TS, regardless of whether you're pre-op or post-op. That would be bigotry, pure and simple, and you could at least get some consolation by telling yourself that you deserve better than to be with a bigot anyway. I started a thread at another forum a few weeks ago, asking the question, "How much homophobia is behind transphobia?" This came from the idea that many transphobic men reject trans women, even the perfectly passable post-op ones, because they believe that trans women are actually men; thus, their disgust would be based on homophobia. At one point in the thread, I asked the rhetorical question that if these men can't get the thought of being sexual with another man out of their minds when confronted with a trans woman, then why are they not similarly concerned about whether they are pedophiles? After all, every natal woman was once a little girl.
The problems that the TS/TG community is still facing are very much the same as those faced by the black community several decades ago. Do you all remember the "one-drop rule" that was written into the laws of many jurisdictions? There's a classic Hollywood movie from the 1950s called Imitation of Life. One of the main storylines in the movie was about mixed-race girl who passed as white and resented both her racial identity and her black mother because of the discrimination that African Americans suffered at the time. In one harrowing scene, her white boyfriend beats her within an inch of her life when he learns that she's part black. We can hardly imagine something like that, or even just a nonviolent break-up for the same reasons, happening today because racism is shameful, and pretty much no one wants to be a racist. (Many white supremacists actually deny that they are racists.) Yet similar bigotry toward transsexuals is still socially acceptable, even as homophobia falls out of fashion. I think that there's nothing wrong with preferring to be with people of a certain race instead of another, so I think that there's nothing wrong with preferring to be with natal women/men and passable TSs instead of less-than-passable and pre-op TSs. But societies need to get to a point where "passing" simply means being more or less masculine or feminine, instead of hiding something. Mixed race people no longer have to hide, so no one has to "pass as white" anymore.
Based solely on your avatar pic, I think that you are easily one of the five most passable trans women that I've ever seen, so you're already the envy of most of the community. On top of that, you're more beautiful than 90% of all women, by any standard. The guys who reject you because you're TS are losers, literally. How many will end-up with natal women who look as good as you do? YOU should be sorry for THEIR loss. Maybe, in the future, you might try throwing a guy's bigotry back in his face by mentioning some of the things that I've said.
Quote from: ydgmdlu on November 19, 2011, 08:04:48 PM
If you think that telling a partner that you're TS is hard, imagine revealing to her/him that you have male breasts, large nipples, and a micropenis, or that you have clitoris that looks like a mini penis, and that your gender was decided after you were born because it was too ambiguous at birth.)
One difference for IS people is that "it wasn't their choice" in many people's eyes, and being TS was a "choice" in some people's eyes (not in mine). Because of this bogus idea of TS people having choice, that makes TS a sin while IS is just an effect of sin (seriously, people believe this kind of garbage). So in this respect IS people are at a bit of an advantage. They also can say "I was never a man, but I needed surgery to fix defects" and be believed (sadly TS people often aren't). TS people, sadly, can't as easily say the same thing (despite it being equally true).
But that said, I think both are hard situations to be in within society today and I don't think there is point in comparing sufferings. (I also think TS is IS, as the brain is as much part of biology as genitals are - but I recognize that's a rather controversial statement, albeit mostly for political reasons [IS people, sadly, hold prejudices too and also sometimes think it's more politically expediant to use society's prejudices to say "You can hate those TS people, because IS is nothing like TS..."])
As for one drop of blood, that's a reasonable analogy sadly. I think society and law sees TS (and IS) people as neither male or female, and, thus, not sexual beings worthy of any relationship. For instance, a post-op woman married to a non-trans man cannot have a legal marriage in all 50 states in the USA - nor could she if she then got divorced and married a woman. Neither marriage would be universally legally accepted within the USA. The only thing that one could conclude from this is that TS people aren't supposed to marry anyone. :( It's a double sided sword. (I'll add that this is also the official Catholic doctrine - TS people that convert to Catholicism shouldn't marry anyone, ever have sex, etc - they are to live in celibacy apparently)
I hope things get better soon for everyone and that one day there will be no debate about whether a woman should share she is (edit: or was) TS or not - she'll simply be accepted as the woman she is. What I can say as someone who has always had an "M" on my documents and doesn't see a need to change it is that love can do funny things. I never considered that my future wife might not have always had an "F" on her driver's birth certificate. Love can make people think of things that they never thought of before. :)
Quote from: Slanan on November 19, 2011, 08:39:05 PMOne difference for IS people is that "it wasn't their choice" in many people's eyes, and being TS was a "choice" in some people's eyes (not in mine).
One of my pet peeves is the whole "choice" issue, which people on all sides usually get wrong. The moral value of something is different from one's moral responsibility. Whether or not one chooses doesn't make it right or wrong; one is merely more or less responsible for it. Thus, to argue against homophobes about whether homosexuality is a choice is not only pointless but also counterproductive. A schizophrenic psychopath doesn't "choose" to kill people in his blind, murderous rampage, and he would be acquitted of murder in a court of law. But murder is still wrong. You can find plenty of homophobes (many of whom are Catholic) who agree that homosexuality itself is not a choice and isn't wrong, but "engaging in homosexual acts" is wrong. Likewise, I'm sure that you could find people who would agree that feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body and desiring a sex change is neither a choice nor wrong, but they'd argue that merely transitioning is wrong.
AFAIK, there's nothing in the Bible, or the scripture of any major religion, that addresses transsexualism. The Bible forbids cross-dressing, which virtually everyone everywhere today ignores because some traditionally male clothes (e.g., pants) are now commonly worn by women without arousing any complaints. The Bible does not hold castration to be sinful, and there is absolutely nothing in the text about getting a neovagina. So SRS would be a morally-neutral act, neither a sin nor a virtue.
We all know about the "Duck test" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test): "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." If someone looks like a woman, acts like a woman, sounds like a woman, and has all of the external body parts of a woman, then where does the line get drawn about whether or not this person is a woman? If a man has his genitals completely amputated by accident, then in what sense is he still a man? After all, he can no longer perform the most fundamental act that every man was born to do: penetrate another person with his penis. If what determines whether someone is a "man" is more than just one thing, no matter if it came at birth, then the same ought to apply to women.
Quote from: Slanan on November 19, 2011, 08:39:05 PMBecause of this bogus idea of TS people having choice, that makes TS a sin while IS is just an effect of sin (seriously, people believe this kind of garbage).
Keep in mind that one of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is the concept of inherited sin. All humans are inherently sinful because of descendance from Adam and Eve. Judaism, Islam, and Baha'i Faith reject "original sin." If someone believes that intersexuality is the "effect of sin," then the intersex person would've logically inherited that sin and would not have the right to choose to be male or female.
Quote from: Slanan on November 19, 2011, 08:39:05 PMThey also can say "I was never a man, but I needed surgery to fix defects" and be believed (sadly TS people often aren't).
The matter is complicated by those cases in which an intersex person is neonatally assigned the wrong gender and must, like David Reimer, undergo further sex reassignment therapy later in life. There have definitely been members of Susans.org who are both IS and MTF or FTM.
Quote from: Slanan on November 19, 2011, 08:39:05 PMBut that said, I think both are hard situations to be in within society today and I don't think there is point in comparing sufferings.
You've missed my point. Even after all available surgeries and hormone therapies, an intersex person who identifies as male might still have a micropenis or partially functional, somewhat natural-looking reconstructed genitals, which makes complete stealth (in regards to potential sex partners) impossible. Given how society emphasizes certain aspects of masculinity, that remaining deformity may never cease to cause the person shame. On top of that, being born only "halfway male" may feel worse than being FTM because one would have the experience of never measuring-up his whole life, rather than having the ability to change into a different body.
Furthermore, since humans are naturally averse to things that defy easy categorization, a "true hermaphrodite" (in the medical sense) would be even more bewilderingly "queer" (by which I mean "strange") than a transsexual. The "advantage" that TSs have is that if they are rejected as "real (wo)men" then at least there's an alternative gender by which others can regard them. A severely intersexed person doesn't have that and would otherwise just be seen as an "it."
Quote from: Slanan on November 19, 2011, 08:39:05 PMFor instance, a post-op woman married to a non-trans man cannot have a legal marriage in all 50 states in the USA - nor could she if she then got divorced and married a woman. Neither marriage would be universally legally accepted within the USA.
I'm not sure that this is true. While the states are debating how the "full faith and credit" clause applies to same-sex marriage, I don't know of any disputes over recognizing a legal sex change. In other words, if a trans woman changes all legal documentation to reflect her post-transition gender, then I don't see how her marriage to a man would fail to be legally recognized anywhere. Marriage is a legal arrangement, so even in places that outlaw same-sex marriage, someone who is legally female (trans or not) should still be able to marry a man. But please correct me if I'm wrong.
Quote from: ydgmdlu on November 19, 2011, 10:57:35 PM
One of my pet peeves is the whole "choice" issue, which people on all sides usually get wrong. The moral value of something is different from one's moral responsibility. Whether or not one chooses doesn't make it right or wrong; one is merely more or less responsible for it. Thus, to argue against homophobes about whether homosexuality is a choice is not only pointless but also counterproductive. A schizophrenic psychopath doesn't "choose" to kill people in his blind, murderous rampage, and he would be acquitted of murder in a court of law. But murder is still wrong. You can find plenty of homophobes (many of whom are Catholic) who agree that homosexuality itself is not a choice and isn't wrong, but "engaging in homosexual acts" is wrong. Likewise, I'm sure that you could find people who would agree that feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body and desiring a sex change is neither a choice nor wrong, but they'd argue that merely transitioning is wrong.
AFAIK, there's nothing in the Bible, or the scripture of any major religion, that addresses transsexualism. The Bible forbids cross-dressing, which virtually everyone everywhere today ignores because some traditionally male clothes (e.g., pants) are now commonly worn by women without arousing any complaints. The Bible does not hold castration to be sinful, and there is absolutely nothing in the text about getting a neovagina. So SRS would be a morally-neutral act, neither a sin nor a virtue.
We all know about the "Duck test" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test): "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." If someone looks like a woman, acts like a woman, sounds like a woman, and has all of the external body parts of a woman, then where does the line get drawn about whether or not this person is a woman? If a man has his genitals completely amputated by accident, then in what sense is he still a man? After all, he can no longer perform the most fundamental act that every man was born to do: penetrate another person with his penis. If what determines whether someone is a "man" is more than just one thing, no matter if it came at birth, then the same ought to apply to women.
Keep in mind that one of the fundamental tenets of Christianity is the concept of inherited sin. All humans are inherently sinful because of descendance from Adam and Eve. Judaism, Islam, and Baha'i Faith reject "original sin." If someone believes that intersexuality is the "effect of sin," then the intersex person would've logically inherited that sin and would not have the right to choose to be male or female.
The matter is complicated by those cases in which an intersex person is neonatally assigned the wrong gender and must, like David Reimer, undergo further sex reassignment therapy later in life. There have definitely been members of Susans.org who are both IS and MTF or FTM.
You've missed my point. Even after all available surgeries and hormone therapies, an intersex person who identifies as male might still have a micropenis or partially functional, somewhat natural-looking reconstructed genitals, which makes complete stealth (in regards to potential sex partners) impossible. Given how society emphasizes certain aspects of masculinity, that remaining deformity may never cease to cause the person shame. On top of that, being born only "halfway male" may feel worse than being FTM because one would have the experience of never measuring-up his whole life, rather than having the ability to change into a different body.
Furthermore, since humans are naturally averse to things that defy easy categorization, a "true hermaphrodite" (in the medical sense) would be even more bewilderingly "queer" (by which I mean "strange") than a transsexual. The "advantage" that TSs have is that if they are rejected as "real (wo)men" then at least there's an alternative gender by which others can regard them. A severely intersexed person doesn't have that and would otherwise just be seen as an "it."
I'm not sure that this is true. While the states are debating how the "full faith and credit" clause applies to same-sex marriage, I don't know of any disputes over recognizing a legal sex change. In other words, if a trans woman changes all legal documentation to reflect her post-transition gender, then I don't see how her marriage to a man would fail to be legally recognized anywhere. Marriage is a legal arrangement, so even in places that outlaw same-sex marriage, someone who is legally female (trans or not) should still be able to marry a man. But please correct me if I'm wrong.
I haven't read the whole post, but as far as I know, that verse that refers to banning crossdressing actually refers to men dressing as women to avoid being in the army, or women dressing as men to get in the army.
Quote from: ydgmdlu on November 19, 2011, 10:57:35 PM
I'm not sure that this is true. While the states are debating how the "full faith and credit" clause applies to same-sex marriage, I don't know of any disputes over recognizing a legal sex change. In other words, if a trans woman changes all legal documentation to reflect her post-transition gender, then I don't see how her marriage to a man would fail to be legally recognized anywhere. Marriage is a legal arrangement, so even in places that outlaw same-sex marriage, someone who is legally female (trans or not) should still be able to marry a man. But please correct me if I'm wrong.
Unfortunately no state defines man or woman in law. Some agencies in government do, but they all define it differently - and none define it for the purpose of marriage - and this is only done through administrative rules, not statutes. These rules are only binding on the agency that created the rules.
The administrative rules for having an M or F on a birth certificate or a driver's license do not automatically apply to social security (for instance). Or to marriage.
The most well known case law is the Littleton v. Prange that is controlling in parts of Texas. The court decided that DNA mattered (ironically without any DNA evidence presented at trial - they just assumed that the post-op person was XY) and that because her changed birth certificate originally said "M" and that saying "M" was, in the court's eyes, not a mistake at the time, she was still "M". Ironically, this ruling has been used by some lesbian couples where one partner is MTF to obtain a same-sex marriage in Texas. (the court also specifically stated that the ruling does not apply to IS people - one of the ways that IS people do not face the same problems as TS people) In other words, someone with the right parts and the right documentation did not have a legal marriage.
At least parts/all of Florida, Kansas, Illinois, New York, Nevada, Ohio, and Texas have court rulings that deny post-op MTF people the right to marry non-trans men, regardless of documentation status and gender markers. (I don't know of any marriage cases involving FTMs). FWIW, California, Colorado (1973! but not directly about marriage [edit: and the one that I know of involving FTM non-op]), Louisiana, and New Jersey have case law that would seem to recognize post-op people's sex. This doesn't mean that someone couldn't convince a clerk to issue a marriage license in any of these states, or that a clerk would actually do it in a given state - but it does affect the validity of the marriage if a marriage license is issued (marriage license does not mean that the marriage is legal, unfortunately).
Quote from: JenJen2011 on November 18, 2011, 10:43:25 AM
Being attracted to our dicks is a major turn off for many so that's why it's a problem.
Wow, lets have SRS and have them being attracted to our pussys! Wow that's such a difference! ::) Men are just attracted to what's in between our legs whether we are CIS or Trans period! :o yeah i said it! 8) They just want to get laid! Sorry but I hear it from both sides(cis and trans) all the time geez and its just stupid.
->-bleeped-<-s, oh no ->-bleeped-<-s, there's trans ->-bleeped-<-s, gay ->-bleeped-<-s, blonde ->-bleeped-<-s, brunette ->-bleeped-<-s,redhead ->-bleeped-<-s, virgin ->-bleeped-<-s, chubby ->-bleeped-<-s, etc etc.. Men are ->-bleeped-<-s period so are women :o old ->-bleeped-<-, young ->-bleeped-<-, hung ->-bleeped-<-, get my drift. People chase their preferences including transpeople. I know I do.