why do people claim that it is harder to pass as an mtf or that ftm have it easy when it comes to transition or passing? i hear alot of that, and people say things like "puberty is worse for an mtf." i decided to make a compare and contrast list to prove that it's equal.
let me try to make a venn diagram type of comparison to show you how not true that is.
Male puberty: Growth Spurt, Increased penis and testicle size, Pubic hair, Axillary hair, Voice change, Increased facial and body hair, Ability to ejaculate sperm, Broader shoulders compared to hips.
Female puberty: Growth Spurt (regardless of female tendency to be shorter,) Breast Development, Pubic hair, Axillary hair, Voice change (regardless of female voice change being more subtle and gradual,) Menstrual cycle, Ability to become pregnant, thicker fat distribution in hips, buttocks thighs, breasts.
do you see how the number of changes are basically equal? just because one sex changes in one way or the other doesn't make it any less of a change. i'll also add, females can grow more facial/body hair as part of a change in puberty. it's variable on genetics. i'm sure i didn't list every single change, but those are the main ones. i've studied this so much, so i know that regardless of what sex you are, they both have just as many changes. if you are a transgender individual, going through the changes of that sex will be no picnic. also, take note. can an FTM do nearly as much surgically wise or can they do voice training before hrt? i don't think so. it gets pretty depressing when mtf are constantly testifying that we fall short when it comes to ftm. maybe people should try to think a little deeper?
Yeah I think surgically FTM have more to do then a MTF but passing wise FTM have it easier as 90% can and will eventually pass after being on T for a period of time. They may end up looking like a teenage boy or young man but that's better then not passing if you ask me.
There are advantages & disadvantages to both.
It's complicated. I think as an ftm I can pass more easily for the most part. Genitally, though, I'll always be wrong. There's not even a distant hope of being anatomically normal.
There are a lot of factors though. Testosterone wrecks the body of an mtf, but I got pregnant. I got pregnant twice, and I got raped in situations where I believe I would've been safe if I was perceived as male. I have permanently wide hips, and even if I were straight I might get treated like I'm gay (when I pass) because I look small and soft, and I don't always know how to act properly socially male.
And...and there are lots of issues an mtf faces that I just shouldn't start listing. That's not really my place, and it's not necessary.
I agree it's a pretty mixed set of situations, comparable in some aspects but apples and oranges on the whole.
It seems as if passing for FTMs is much much easier since the hormones seem to really work wonders most of the time. Very few that I've seen (on youtube mostly) DON'T pass after several months and the natural voice change is amazing, whereas in MTF, this is not the case. It seems that the MTFs who start really young have maybe a similar success rate. I've actually never heard that puberty is easier for FTMs before and agree with you that it probably is just about equally hard for both. I mean growing breasts, hips, and getting periods must be pure agony. I'm not sure where you've heard this, because I never have.
For me, I think it is because it is socially and culturally more acceptable for women to wear men's clothing, to be tomboys (like sports, hunting, etc), than it is for men to wear feminine clothing, jewelry, makeup, get their nails done, etc.
So early-transition trans men are just strong, solid women (in the eyes of society) and likely unnoticed, whereas early-transition trans women might be ridiculed or worse for expressing their femininity.
Society and their reactions, even to boys who are not trans or gay liking traditionally women's things/activities even as benign as cooking, are more negative than they are for girls who enjoy traditionally men's activities.
Jay
Quote from: sonopoly on December 25, 2011, 07:28:45 AM
It seems as if passing for FTMs is much much easier since the hormones seem to really work wonders most of the time. Very few that I've seen (on youtube mostly) DON'T pass after several months and the natural voice change is amazing, whereas in MTF, this is not the case. It seems that the MTFs who start really young have maybe a similar success rate. I've actually never heard that puberty is easier for FTMs before and agree with you that it probably is just about equally hard for both. I mean growing breasts, hips, and getting periods must be pure agony. I'm not sure where you've heard this, because I never have.
I wonder if whoever said puberty was worse for mtf meant that its effects are harder to remove. Because I can't see why else someone would think that.
I totally agree, FA (didn't you used to be Nero?). I'm really not sure where the OP is coming from here, though maybe your thought that mtf effects are more difficult to remove, which further supports the idea that it's harder to be an MTF, which doesn't support the OP's thoughts. I wish the OP would elaborate and respond, because I'm confused and want to hear her thoughts.
That, and if there is a 'default' gender it tend to male, and not female.
Quote from: sonopoly on December 25, 2011, 08:01:56 AM
I totally agree, FA (didn't you used to be Nero?). I'm really not sure where the OP is coming from here, though maybe your thought that mtf effects are more difficult to remove, which further supports the idea that it's harder to be an MTF, which doesn't support the OP's thoughts. I wish the OP would elaborate and respond, because I'm confused and want to hear her thoughts.
ok, so i'm back. anyway, i saw a thread here maybe over a year ago where someone said that they think puberty is harder for mtf, they were ftm btw. i've also heard on and off many times that someone who is mtf just can't transition as well as someone ftm. i think it's not only unfair to ftm, but it's also unfair to mtf when people say things like that and how mtf is a pity case and all that jazz. i don't believe it's harder or easier for one sex or the other. even at that, we're all different so it's going to be different sets of scenarios for everyone. why blame another person going through the same category of struggle when it has nothing to do with them and everything to do with the rest of society and their ability to be perceived as the male or female they are? just because we don't have that ability, we're an outcasted group by default, so blaming other in that same boat is about the worst thing you can do.
* i'm mtf, and i've actually just reached a point where i feel like i wouldn't want to be someone else, because i've gotten to really like myself. being reborn cisgender would change those things i learned to appreciate most.
when it comes to surgery, I will say that part is easier for MTF. Hands down. Because the science isn't there yet for a really good FTM bottom surgery at a decent price. And top surgery for FTM is a bear.
Other than that, I have to disagree with the OP. FTM can grow a beard after HRT, their voices may drop on their own from HRT, Testosterone can make the face more masculine...a bit more easily than Estrogen can make a face feminine.
MTF still needs electrolysis or laser for the face, waxing or shaving may still be required, and you can't rise the voice box when it's been lowered so no amount of HRT will fix a MTF voice and I personally do not know any FTM who got FFS in order to look more masculine. On the other hand, lotsa MTF has gotten FFS.
I think specifically passing is much easier for FTMs, and I take passing to mean with clothes on. It's also easier because a female can dress and present masculine without being noticed much. They're just seen as butch lesbians which is pretty acceptable. Whereas if a guy doesn't pass and wears makeup and a dress, they would be stared at and perhaps even snickered at and ridiculed.
I do think that MTFs have it way better in the surgery department where they can get fully functional and aesthetically authentic results.
I don't think any of this means that anyone is dissing MTFs, it just is what it is.
Quote from: Annah on December 25, 2011, 08:45:50 PM
when it comes to surgery, I will say that part is easier for MTF. Hands down. Because the science isn't there yet for a really good FTM bottom surgery at a decent price. And top surgery for FTM is a bear.
Other than that, I have to disagree with the OP. FTM can grow a beard after HRT, their voices may drop on their own from HRT, Testosterone can make the face more masculine...a bit more easily than Estrogen can make a face feminine.
MTF still needs electrolysis or laser for the face, waxing or shaving may still be required, and you can't rise the voice box when it's been lowered so no amount of HRT will fix a MTF voice and I personally do not know any FTM who got FFS in order to look more masculine. On the other hand, lotsa MTF has gotten FFS.
i understand that testosterone does those things, but your bones are bones. you'll still have the female bone structure once everything is fused. that happens quicker for someone female bodied. you could get a beard, but that's just one thing. ftm can get a beard just as mtf can get breasts. ftms voices drop on hrt only, and they have no ability to modulate their voice. they will need to wait for hormones to do it. plus, an mtf will get more female skin texture, more female fat distribution. those things really change your overall appearance by alot. females also have fuller lips. i'm thinking estrogen does it. just because MTF need to wax/shave doesn't really mean anything. ftm still have to bind, deal with periods, deal with the penis they can't get even if they wanted, and some of them end up pregnant and responsible to assume that responsibility. i've seen it before on here, where an ftm could go on hrt since they got pregnant. you could say "well, it's a choice." felix already said he was raped, and there is heat of the moment sometimes, so i think it's equal. mtf shouldn't just sit and moan about their oppressor.
Everything I have read on the subject seems to indicate that while female is the default biological gender, male is the default social gender.
Apparently it takes something like four female visual cues to equal one male visual cue.
That is, people are socially programmed to see a male if at all possible. A poorly-passing MtF will be seen as a man in a dress rather than as a really masculine woman, unless there are really obvious overriding factors. Whereas a poorly-passing FtM will tend to be seen as a feminine male.
Karen.
Quote from: FullMoon19 on December 25, 2011, 11:53:58 PM
i understand that testosterone does those things, but your bones are bones. you'll still have the female bone structure once everything is fused. that happens quicker for someone female bodied. you could get a beard, but that's just one thing. ftm can get a beard just as mtf can get breasts. ftms voices drop on hrt only, and they have no ability to modulate their voice. they will need to wait for hormones to do it. plus, an mtf will get more female skin texture, more female fat distribution. those things really change your overall appearance by alot. females also have fuller lips. i'm thinking estrogen does it. just because MTF need to wax/shave doesn't really mean anything. ftm still have to bind, deal with periods, deal with the penis they can't get even if they wanted, and some of them end up pregnant and responsible to assume that responsibility. i've seen it before on here, where an ftm could go on hrt since they got pregnant. you could say "well, it's a choice." felix already said he was raped, and there is heat of the moment sometimes, so i think it's equal. mtf shouldn't just sit and moan about their oppressor.
It takes much longer to grow breasts proportionate to the body than it does for a transguy to start growing facial hair. After two years of HRT,a girl would be extremely lucky to have b-c cup. After two years of hrt, Ive seen guys sporting goatees.
Testosterone also drops the voice. A transwoman has to ALWAYS work on their voice 24/7; every single time I talk I have to raise my voice box.
I agree with the binding issue...hence why I stated "aside" from the surgery aspects.
A MTF has to wax, shave, electrolysis, or laser to get the hair off. FTM can let it grow out.
Society has a tendency of judging a MTF more harshly than a FTM. If a transgirl doesn't pass well then any form of feminine articles of clothing such as skirt, tights, etc will be looked at in a sense of shame, ridicule, and misogyny. A FTM who wears jeans, slacks, button down shirt or polo hardly gets a second glance unless you are a conservative Mennonite.
Yes, internally, MTF has issues of periods unless they get a mastectomy but to the outside world, people do not know when they are menstruating. Many FTM I know gets a hysterectomy that is approved by their insurance to do away with estrogen production and periods. MTF, unless they had a job that caters to transgender benefits cannot get an orchi covered by insurance.
A Doctor can write up surgery for a mastectomy where it can be covered if they have the insurance for it. MTF cannot get Breast Augmentation covered at the present time.
FTM can usually walk into a department store and try on slacks and buy boxers. MTF who walks into a department store and tries on dresses and panties can be given a moutful by a religious employee at Macys.
Yes, FTM has it rough too. I am not denying it, but it's not exactly even Steven across the board.
Quote from: Annah on December 26, 2011, 12:36:55 AM
It takes much longer to grow breasts proportionate to the body than it does for a transguy to start growing facial hair. After two years of HRT,a girl would be extremely lucky to have b-c cup. After two years of hrt, Ive seen guys sporting goatees.
Testosterone also drops the voice. A transwoman has to ALWAYS work on their voice 24/7; every single time I talk I have to raise my voice box.
I agree with the binding issue...hence why I stated "aside" from the surgery aspects.
A MTF has to wax, shave, electrolysis, or laser to get the hair off. FTM can let it grow out.
Society has a tendency of judging a MTF more harshly than a FTM. If a transgirl doesn't pass well then any form of feminine articles of clothing such as skirt, tights, etc will be looked at in a sense of shame, ridicule, and misogyny. A FTM who wears jeans, slacks, button down shirt or polo hardly gets a second glance unless you are a conservative Mennonite.
Yes, internally, MTF has issues of periods unless they get a mastectomy but to the outside world, people do not know when they are menstruating. Many FTM I know gets a hysterectomy that is approved by their insurance to do away with estrogen production and periods. MTF, unless they had a job that caters to transgender benefits cannot get an orchi covered by insurance.
A Doctor can write up surgery for a mastectomy where it can be covered if they have the insurance for it. MTF cannot get Breast Augmentation covered at the present time.
FTM can usually walk into a department store and try on slacks and buy boxers. MTF who walks into a department store and tries on dresses and panties can be given a moutful by a religious employee at Macys.
Yes, FTM has it rough too. I am not denying it, but it's not exactly even Steven across the board.
for me, it was different. i'm on hormones for over a year, and i have a b cup breast which is proportional to my body. my voice is naturally female with no modulation, but i really can't see how having to modulate it is such a bad thing. does it really matter that you resonate it from a different place? if you've practiced it enough, it eventually becomes natural, and your brain basically loses the ability to use the male voice. even at that, people work on their voices all the time. maybe it's not as dramatic as needing to modulate it differently to sound like the other sex, but voice is something people work on all the time regardless. i would rather just do it and think nothing more of it. it sounds like an outcasting type of statement to say "A transwoman has to ALWAYS work on their voice 24/7; every single time I talk I have to raise my voice box."
i don't know, that's just the way i think. i would rather not shrink myself if it's not necessary.
All of the FTM I know locally have jobs. Only 1 of the MTF I know has a job. There are 3 MTF for every transman in our IRL group.
When MTF have the same hire rate as FTM locally I will change my perception that FTM have more passing privilage.
I agree with Annah. If you compare all the FTM's and MTF's together, I'm sure most of the FTM's you wouldn't even know they were born biologically female. It is way much easier for them to pass simply by being on HRT for a few years.
::) :icon_headache:
Unless they know everyone's story and have been in everyone's shoes,
I think no body has the right to judge who has it harder.
I think no body has the right to judge who has it harder.
It does not appear to be all that hard, everybody has it easier than I do seems to cover all the bases.
I do understand what the OP is saying, and to a certain degree, I also agree.
Especially about that hip-thing, as a very passable and masculine FTM may still have a very broad pelvis. However, in my opinon, that is pretty much the only physiological problem an FTM face in regards of passability and success of transitioning, if on full HRT and having the access to surgical help.
And, some FTM's do not have female skeleton at all and thus pass 100%.
However, in regards of social acceptance, I am quite ambivalent on the issue, as FTM's, if open about their status, may face quite harse attitudes aswell from those that do not accept "such" people.
Funny thing is, that- on several boards- I have seen lots of people complimenting and cheering when a very pretty and passable MTF is debated, but when a FTM is subject for debate, the attitudes can be extremely disrespecting.
Please note, that ofcourse, MTF's, too, all too often faces these very same attitudes aswell from the homophobes and transphobes, but it is yet something that I have several times thought about, that the reactions towards a FTM, although attractive and masculine, often seems slightly different than the reactions towards a MTF.
Still, it is perhaps just a pure coincidence, and it might perhaps after all be that there is really no difference at all, who knows. *Shrugs*
Nonetheless worth mentioning.
Oh and another thing; Many people seems to be totally unaware about FTM's even existing. Just the other evening, I was following a discussion about a FTM, when a poster started talking about "reverse transsexuals" to refer to FTM's. ::)
Many people simply take the MTF as the postersymbol for a transsexual, and totally ignores FTM's although they being pretty much as many.
Anyway, in regards of who has it the "easiest". I don't think it really can be compared, as both groups have different problems in regards of transitioning, although some of the problems, especially the social ones, is very much the same.
It can depend on the individual's factors as well - acceptance of family and friends is independent of being MtF or FtM most of the time, and access to certain medical procedures can also vary from country to country.
I'd say it's probably easiest (in relative terms) for young MtFs such as myself, I was able to change my voice fairly easily, I've always had a small frame and a not too masculine facial structure and have now had genital surgery which is convincing.
Of course the lack of effective FtM genital surgery and the greater difficulty of the operation compared to vaginoplasty could be said to offset the fact that MtFs generally have a harder time passing than FtMs. But then that also depends on the individual as some FtMs don't mind not having the metoidioplasty or phalloplasty - meaning for them, it's easier, relatively speaking.
I think the statistics (aka lives) remembered this past TDOR serve as the best rational why MTFs have it harder. It succinctly summarizes the societal expectations for those born either male or female and the repercussions for those not able to or wanting to conform to their birth role. In order to obtain some measure of success an MTF does have to work much harder at passing.
(BTW-I am defining "passing" as walking down the street w/o getting read)
Try as I might, I cannot rationalize a "grass is always greener" argument in favor of FTMs having a more difficult time to "pass". Let's be real, you can take about any fully grown mature gg and with very little work she can pass as a male. Perhaps a young or boyish looking male, but still pass. Not so for most males when it comes to passing and ultimately acceptance by society at large as a female.
I can readily agree adolescent females do have more body issues to deal with than males. There is the very real "I can get preggers" part where reality gets in the way of ignoring. Yet, both males and females have "ideals" that they measure themselves against. Societal standards place pressures on both sexes to posses those ideal traits. Biological destiny does put females that at a disadvantage. They are the flowers and males are the bee's. The pressure is real for females to try live up to those ideals.
The body shape is a bit of a bogus argument. A very sizable percentage (1/3) of western women have andropoid hips. Here in WV I've noticed there is nearly zero difference in how men and women walk, no matter which age group you choose.
As far as passing, I want to point out (though how it relates to gender divides or any of us I'm not sure) how different it is town to town. I see a lot of ambiguously gendered people here in Portland, and my transdar gets all fungled up with my gaydar, cd-dar, punkdar, youthdar, etc (I'm getting lexically stupid here, i know).
Quote from: cynthialee on December 26, 2011, 09:16:05 AM
All of the FTM I know locally have jobs. Only 1 of the MTF I know has a job. There are 3 MTF for every transman in our IRL group.
When MTF have the same hire rate as FTM locally I will change my perception that FTM have more passing privilage.
I think "having it harder" and "having a harder time passing" should probably be thought of as separate questions.
And wow tekla, that is quite a cynical statement. Not that I'm disagreeing. :laugh:
I think from a social point of view it's harder for trans women. It's mostly ok for a woman to wear male clothing but a man wearing female clothing can get you assulted or worse in this society.
Physically I don't think there is much in it. I think puberty may be a bit harder for trans men but passing harder for trans women. Still I don't think there is that much in it either way.
Quote from: cynthialee on December 26, 2011, 09:16:05 AM
All of the FTM I know locally have jobs. Only 1 of the MTF I know has a job. There are 3 MTF for every transman in our IRL group.
When MTF have the same hire rate as FTM locally I will change my perception that FTM have more passing privilage.
Seriously? The majority of MtFs (including myself) I know have jobs, and more often than not fairly decent ones at that.
Quote from: Assoluta on December 26, 2011, 06:23:42 PM
Seriously? The majority of MtFs (including myself) I know have jobs, and more often than not fairly decent ones at that.
I know more MTFs who are unemployed than I do MTF who are employed. Me being a MTF in a Christian Seminary is almost non existant...I know of two other MTF who are currently attending Seminaries across the United States. I know of five who have graduated Seminaries some time ago and have a job.
On the other hand, we have five FTM at my seminary alone and at least one hundred currently in the United States in Seminary. Even in a conservative seminary a FTM can get away with wearing men's clothing and not be kicked out under a type of "Don't ask don't tell." If a MTF wore a skirt in a conservative seminary, they wouldn't make it through one class before asking to leave the school (I've seen this first hand in conservative Bible Colleges....Liberty College being one of them).
I think this ratio is pretty much accurate if compared to the general job market.
Even though MTFs on average have it harder because of the intersection of cissexism and misogyny, it depends on a case by case basis because of factors like race, social class, etc. For example, a working class, gay, trans man of color would have it harder than a middle-upper class, straight, white, trans woman.
Quote from: TheAetherealMeadow on December 27, 2011, 12:20:10 AM
Even though MTFs on average have it harder because of the intersection of cissexism and misogyny, it depends on a case by case basis because of factors like race, social class, etc. For example, a working class, gay, trans man of color would have it harder than a middle-upper class, straight, white, trans woman.
if you compare it like that, a transwoman of color would have a significantly harder time in society than a transman of color.....at least where I live.
Quote from: Annah on December 27, 2011, 01:31:57 AM
if you compare it like that, a transwoman of color would have a significantly harder time in society than a transman of color.....at least where I live.
I think if we want to get really reductionist about it, men do tend to have it easier, whether cis or trans.
I agree that FTMs generally pass faster/easier than MTFs, but you ladies have far superior surgical options.
Quote from: Felix on December 27, 2011, 01:44:47 AM
I think if we want to get really reductionist about it, men do tend to have it easier, whether cis or trans.
I disagree.
Whether Cis-men or Trans-men, that too, is a incomparable question, as women and men have different problems in different ways, aswell as different benefits, too. In some aspects, men has it easier, while in other aspects, specifically regarding legal issues and work, women actually have more benefits.
As for unemployment, it indeed seems that there are generally more unemployed MTF's than there are unemployed FTM's, or atleast it seems that way. FtM's rather tend to just "get a job" and start working, regardless of what it is, while MTF's more often tends to isolate themselves and basically just stay indoors, for various reasons.
Ofcourse, there are many very successfull and social MTF's, too, but generally, the isolation issues seems to be much more frequent amongst MTF's than FTM's.
What this is caused by, one can only speculate, although the generally mentioned issues are a combination of depression because the own body leading to social phobia and in turn, unwillingless of moving amongst people in the everyday life, and, selfchosen celibacy because they don't know how to relate intimately with other people because of their "state", whether Pre or Post-op.
As for receivement, I would say that FTM's, although masculine and passable, atleast
seemingly appears to have a somewhat worse time getting accepted than pretty and passable MTF's, but then again, it is just a personal observation.
I don't think there is anything cynical in saying: everybody has it easier than I do is a general feeling among humans. Indeed, I think it's pretty good humanistic thinking. Nobody gets a total pass in life, no matter how much it looks from the outside like they did. Not everyone shares the exact same sorrows, disappointments, trials and tribulations - and huge disillusionments - that's true, but everyone has their share. And who's to say which set is harder? Which ones are tougher to live through? - Well... we all do. And it turns out that when we are really into it, we KNOW that we have it worse than anyone else. Again, that's just human nature. Its' ego working overtime so that ego will be there to pull you out later.
I mean everyone has lost a BF/GF at some point, and I'm sure that for each of us one of those breakups is the most heart-wrenching, gut-busting tear-filled break-ups ever. Epic, on a scale like Casablanca. Heartbreak greater than any other heartbreak, cupids worst error and all that. Except for the people who never even got to fall in love that way even once. How much sadder are those stories?
Know why blues music is so universal, across class lines, across race lines in America, across borders and cultures? 'Cause if you don't have the blues today, and you didn't have the blues yesterday, then so' 'nuff ya'll gonna have the blues tomorrow. That's why. Because the blues themselves are universal. Everybody feels like they are walking that long lonely road all by themselves sometimes. It's part of the human condition.
I sense that you re-opened, rather than ended the debate. No offense, but I don't think it's close. Across the entire spectrum of considerations, it's harder for us.
Testosterone has stronger effects on the body. It wrecks our bodies at puberty, and it quickly changes theirs. We get more grief from society, are more likely to be victims of violence.
But everyone has their own road. Some FtMs have it harder than some MtFs.
Quote from: GinaDouglas on December 28, 2011, 01:24:00 AM
I sense that you re-opened, rather than ended the debate. No offense, but I don't think it's close. Across the entire spectrum of considerations, it's harder for us.
Testosterone has stronger effects on the body. It wrecks our bodies at puberty, and it quickly changes theirs. We get more grief from society, are more likely to be victims of violence.
But everyone has their own road. Some FtMs have it harder than some MtFs.
Yup yup yup. I agree with all of this.
Though I should modify my agreement to say that "across the entire spectrum" is a bit of an overly strong statement, and that the last comment is a good caveat. Still.
By "across the entire spectrum" I meant, considering all the issues. It's easy to focus on surgery, for instance, and fixate on FtMs having it tough there. But MtFs have these two huge problems, testosterone and violence, that kinda sit out all alone. Nothing on the FtM side really counteracts those. If those were equal, then overall, FtMs would have it harder.
On the other hand, time seems to be changing that, as society evolves. Some of these young kids, born male but raised by supportive parents as female, who avoid male puberty - they probably have it easier than any FtM. And I suppose that for a pre-transition MtF to be pregnant and give birth is probably a worse experience than getting stomped by homophobic bikers.
Quote from: Beverley on December 28, 2011, 01:33:23 PM
I am reminded of the old adage that "Men have responsibilities, women have choices". Having spent decades as a male I can tell you that the pressure can be intense, expectations that others hold about you can be very demanding and you can be very lonely because men do not bond like women. There is less mutual support and I am a fairly gregarious male who gets on well with others. Some men can be dreadfully unhappy and it is why so many throw themselves into jobs and careers to the exclusion of all else. A job gives you a framework to interact with others and share responsibility.
You might find this website interesting http://wefeelfine.org/ (http://wefeelfine.org/) Click on Open we feel fine on the righthand side and when the display starts up click (or double click) on a coloured ball to see how someone feels. These are all scraped from blogs and places like Susans. Generally women feel happier then men and men feel lonlier than women.
As far as transitioning goes, I would rather be MTF than FTM. The passing will just have to sort itself out, but the breasts and vagina - the more complete physical transformation - is what I crave. I will be tall, big boned and maybe not have the most femme face and I will have to sort that voice out, but having been male I want nothing more to do with it. It is a ghastly state to exist in.
Beverley
What you said is very true. It is a myth that women have it easier, and statistically, a very unsupported myth, too
Not to mention, that the rate of suicides amonst males is four times higher than that of females; That is, on every female commiting suicide, 4 males is doing the same.
In Great Brittain, Suicide is even the next common cause of death for males under the age of 35.
The statistics hardly looks that way because males has it easier.
You know Gina, I know the beatings and murders happen more to MtF than FtM people, but anecdotally I don't see that. My own experience is hard for me to not get tunnel-visioned by. I've been beaten more than once for acting like a homo or dressing in a way that was disrespectful to god or whatever people felt they saw wrong with me. In 6th grade I got threatened and in trouble after I supposedly was scoping out a naked person in the girl's locker room. They just assumed I liked girls because I acted like a boy. It felt like a witch hunt.
And Beverly, I agree with everything you say there, but 2nd and 3rd world countries aren't drowning any boy babies. I am learning that there is enormous pressure being male, and far less human connection. But to me that feels good and makes sense, idk why.
I have a feeling that whatever you are, is whats the hardest, regardless of what you are.... or who you are.
I understand the pressure of being male, or being perceived as male...when people saw me as a girl they saw me as this total ball-breaker, but now, when I tell people I'm transitioning, they see me as too weak and uncertain. And the lack of human connection thing...it comforts me too, somehow. I think because I don't get a lot of it as I am now. So to know that a lot of people who are perceived as strong, capable, and dependable are lonely too makes me feel better. But now I feel bad for taking pleasure in other's loneliness.
QuoteFelix, I feel so sad because you want to enter the hell that I am running from. I wish I could help but I know that the only answer is to let you go to the place that I can no longer stay in. I really, really hope that it works out better for you than it ever did for me.
Beverly, I think part of the issue is that I've spent so much time not being allowed to show weakness anyway, and I've always been the protector, the provider, the fixer. I'm rarely close to anyone for very long, if at all. I never liked the female things I had access to, and I never had access to the things you are running to.
As a man (acting the same as always for me) I'm softer, weaker, sillier than I was as a woman. I get respect when I speak, and the lack of connection is so much less confusing. The subtleties of female interaction were a constant whirlwind.
Quote from: Felix on December 28, 2011, 03:03:55 PM
You know Gina, I know the beatings and murders happen more to MtF than FtM people, but anecdotally I don't see that. My own experience is hard for me to not get tunnel-visioned by. I've been beaten more than once for acting like a homo or dressing in a way that was disrespectful to god or whatever people felt they saw wrong with me. In 6th grade I got threatened and in trouble after I supposedly was scoping out a naked person in the girl's locker room. They just assumed I liked girls because I acted like a boy. It felt like a witch hunt.
And Beverly, I agree with everything you say there, but 2nd and 3rd world countries aren't drowning any boy babies. I am learning that there is enormous pressure being male, and far less human connection. But to me that feels good and makes sense, idk why.
Regarding the noting of drowning of female babies as proof of female oppression, then the very same argument could be done about males, too, as nowhere like in the West World, does males getting attacked, violated and killed only because they are males, as males, are the gender that Statistically and by
far, is the most exposed for violence, not to mention that 90% of all civil losses in War are accounted by male soldiers- Male Soldiers that, as we know, is put there whether they want it or not. Or, "Canonfodder" as they are also referred to as.
Someone that perhaps disagrees with this reasoning may point out that; "But the majority of the violaters/killers/Attackers are males themselves", which, however, is irrelevant, as it is not males as a uniform group that stands for violence against people, but individuals of whom this or that percent are of Male Sex, which is a significant difference.
Quoteas males, are the gender that Statistically and by far, is the most exposed for violence
What? We track soldier deaths, but there are far fewer soldiers in the world than there are wives and children. In many parts of the world and for most of history, men do and have done whatever they want to these people.
Do you have these statistics you speak of with a capital letter?
I think the voice is probably the biggest deal. MTFs often have to retrain their voices, which can be very difficult, while an FTM will mostly acquire their voice with testosterone. Voice is quite a big deal; if Zelda starts sounding like Ganondorf, the audience assumes that she's possessed by him. Maybe it's human nature, maybe it's Hollywood, but the voice defines the soul in today's culture.
Quote from: Felix on December 28, 2011, 03:03:55 PM
You know Gina, I know the beatings and murders happen more to MtF than FtM people, but anecdotally I don't see that.
Statistically it's proven and justifiable once you consider the statistical differences between FTMs and MTFs--- As a whole MTFs are more likely to experience a sexist view of transphobia, a more employment & housing discrimination (in SF >40% unemployment, higher for transwomen of color), thus be forced into sex work (greater than 55% in SF), have HIV/AIDS (nearly 45% in SF, not counting those untested or not reporting), become more desperate, put themselves into riskier and riskier situations, etc.
This happens and is very, very real. Most people think San Francisco is some fabulous trans haven, but it's also a very real nightmare. Just because we're lucky enough to have laws that say that people can't refuse to hire you and will get stiffer penalties for raping and beating your head open with a baseball bat (one image that will never leave my mind) doesn't mean it's less likely to happen. One neighborhood in SF with a population of 25,000 has the highest concentration of transgender murders on the planet, 96% of which are MTF. Since moving here about six years ago, I've befriended 4 women who were murdered and been acquainted with several more.
Quote from: Felix on December 29, 2011, 05:33:51 PM
What? We track soldier deaths, but there are far fewer soldiers in the world than there are wives and children.
Globally, yes, but technically not if speaking about a general War Zone, where there will be far more soldiers fighting against each other than non-soldiers, as, In fact, the majority of Civilians are traditionally either transported, or, flees, whilst the Soldiers are left fighting against each other sides, as Wars are foremostly fought by the rivalling sides fighting against each other, not against the Civilians and especially not females and children.
Yes, there have been lots of horrible acts done in both ancient aswell as Modern times against civilans during war, but those acts have foremostly been done by rouge Soldiers and leaders and not as a part of the War-orders.
The fact that there are more women and children in the World than Soldiers, doesn't say anything, really, as it is two completely different groups; Óne is a Gender, the other is an occupation that the person have to do whether he wants to or not.
QuoteIn many parts of the world and for most of history, men do and have done whatever they want to these people.
Again, it is not Men as a uniformed group that have accounted for anything any less than Homosexual people are the cause of HIV, as Anti-gay acitvists wants to make it.
To say that
Men as a group is responsible for this and that throughout history, is like saying that all Muslims are terrorists for the reason that all terror bombers have been Muslims, although, in reality, the amount of terror bombers makes up less than 1% of Muslims, which only proves that Muslims are no more uniform and syncronised mass than Males are.
QuoteDo you have these statistics you speak of with a capital letter?
Some numbers:
Caussualkities in WAR: [Dept. Defense -- Vietnam Casualties 47,369 men vs 74 women]
WORKPLACE FATALITIES: Men account for more than 95% of workplace fatalities.
MURDER: Men are murdered at a rate almost 5 times that of women [Dept. Health & Human Services -- 26,710 men vs 5,700 women]
And, some statistics about assault outside of War; The following text is unfortunately in Swedish, but in English it says that;
QuoteWomen over the age of 18 is foremostly exposed to violence by someone they know and inside, while men over the age of 18 in higher degree runs the risk of being assaulted outside and by someone unknown. In 2008, there were 25 816 cases of assault on females over the age of 18 and older, of those, 18 975 of the the victim was familiar with the assaulter.
Of the complaints regarding violence against men of the age of 18 or older, 13 640 cases of 41 375 cases the victim was familiar with the assaulter.
And, regarding violence against males by people they
know, here is some revealing statistics about that:
(Research from the 70's until now)http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
This bibliography examines 282 scholarly investigations: 218 empirical studies and 64 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 369,800.
Amendt, G. (2008). I didn't divorce my kids!: How fathers deal with family break-ups. Campus Verlag Publishers. (In Chapter 5 author presents data from an internet survey of 3600 divorced German fathers.
Results reveal that 1/3 of men reported episodes of physical violence during the divorce process and 2/3 of these were initiated by ex-partners.)
Adult males Germany
Anderson, K. L. (2002). Perpetrator or victim? Relationships between intimate partner violence and well-being. Journal of Marriage and Family, 64, 851-863. (Data consisted of 7,395 married and cohabiting heterosexual couples drawn from wave 1 of the National Survey of Families and Households <NSFH-1>. In terms of measures: subjects were asked "how many arguments during the past year resulted in 'you hitting, shoving or throwing things at a partner.' They were also asked how many arguments ended with their partner, 'hitting, shoving or throwing things at you.'" Author reports that, "victimization rates are slightly higher among men than women <9% vs 7%> and in cases that involve perpetration by only one partner, more women than men were identified as perpetrators <2% vs 1%>.")
Married couples USA
Arias, I., Samios, M., & O'Leary, K. D. (1987). Prevalence and correlates of physical aggression during courtship. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 2, 82-90. (Used Conflict Tactics Scale with a sample of 270 undergraduates <95 men, 175 women>
and found 30% of men and 49% of women reported using some form of aggression in their dating histories with a greater percentage of women engaging in severe physical aggression.)Universitt Students Canada
Bernard, M. L., & Bernard, J. L. (1983). Violent intimacy: The family as a model for love relationships. Family Relations, 32, 283-286. (Surveyed 461 college students, 168 men, 293 women, with regard to dating violence.
Found that 15% of the men admitted to physically abusing their partners, while 21% of women admitted to physically abusing their partners.)University Students USA
Mwamwenda, T. S. (1998). Reports of husband battering from an undergraduate sample in Umtata. Psychological Reports, 82, 517-518.
(Surveyed a sample of 138 female and 81 male college students in Transkei, South Africa, regarding their witnessing husbanding battery. Responses reveal that 2% of subjects saw their mother beat their father, 18% saw or heard female relatives beating their husbands, and 26% saw or heard female neighbors beating their husbands.)South Africa Adult Females
Nisonoff, L. & Bitman, I. (1979). Spouse abuse: Incidence and relationship to selected demographic variables. Victimology, 4, 131-140. (In a sample of 297 telephone survey respondents <112 men, 185 women> found that
15.5% of men and 11.3% of women report having hit their spouse, while 18.6% of men and 12.7% of women report having been hit by their spouse.)Adults 1979
Jankey, O., Prospero, M., & Fawson, P. (2011). Mutually violent attitudes: effects on intimate partner violence and mental health symptoms among couples in Botswana, Africa. Journal of Aggression, Conflict and Peace Research, 3, (1) 4-11. (
A sample of 562 university students in Botswana <71% female> completed the CTS2. No significant differences between men and women were found with regard to physical perpetration of partner violence.)Botswana 2011
Moxon, S. (2011). Beyond staged retreat behind virtual 'gender paradigm' barricades: the rise and fall of the misrepresentation of partner-violence, and its eclipse by an understanding of mate-guarding. Journal of Aggression, Conflict and Peace Research, 3, 45-56. (Author offers an original analysis of findings in the area of partner violence. Suggests that gender-symmetries in intimate partner violence can best be understood from an evolutionary psychological perspective. In particular,
"the greater need for women than for men to maintain the integrity of the pair bond" is offered as an explanation to account for the finding that women are as physically aggressive or more aggressive as men in their relationship with spouses or male partners.)England 2011 Adults
Munoz-Rivas, M. J., Grana, J. L., O'Leary, K. D., & Gonzalez, M. P. (2007). Aggression in adolescent dating relationships: prevalence, justification, and health consequences. Journal of Adolescent Health, 40, 298-304. (A sample of 2416 high school students <1416 women, 1000 men> from 20 different schools in Madrid, Spain completed a modified CTS.
Results reveal that significantly more women, 41.9% compared to 31.7% of men, admitted to perpetrating some form of physical aggression toward their dating partners. Women were significantly more likely to hit or kick <13.4% vs 5.3%>, slap <12.4% vs 3.1%> and shove or grab <22.5% vs 11.9%> than men.)Spain 2007 Teens
Fergusson, D. M., Horwood, L. J., & Ridder, E. M. (2005). Partner violence and mental health outcomes in a New Zealand birth cohort. Journal of Marriage and Family, 67, 1103-1119. (Examined extent of domestic violence experience and perpetration in a sample of 828 <437 women, 391 men> young adults who were 25 years old. Subjects were part of a long term longitudinal study and were administered the CTS2. Results reveal that
"there were more men exposed to severe domestic violence than women" and that mild and moderate rates were similar for men and women. Overall, 39.4% of women and 30.9% of men reported perpetration scores of 3 or higher. Authors report that men and women reported similar rates of injury <3.9% for women vs. 3.3% for men>.
In terms of initiation of partner assaults, 34% of women and 12% of men reported initiating physical assaults.)New Zealand 2005 25-year olds
Magdol, L., Moffitt, T. E., Caspi, A., ->-bleeped-<-an, J., Newman, D. L., & Silva, P. A. (1997). Gender differences in partner violence in a birth cohort of 21 year Olds: bridging the gap between clinical and epidemiological approaches. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 65, 68-78. (Used CTS with a sample of 861 21 year Olds <436 men, 425 women> in New Zealand.
Physical violence perpetration was reported during the previous 12 months by 37.2% of women and 21.8% of men, with severe violence perpetration by women at 18.6% and men at 5.7%.)New Zealand 1997 21-Year olds
Stets, J. E. & Henderson, D. A. (1991). Contextual factors surrounding conflict resolution while dating: results from a national study. Family Relations, 40, 29-40. (Drawn from a random national telephone survey, daters <n=277; men=149, women=128> between the ages of 18 and 30, who were single, never married and in a relationship during the past year which lasted at least two months with at least six dates were examined with the Conflict Tactics Scale.
Findings reveal that over 30% of subjects used physical aggression in their relationships, with 22% of the men and 40% of the women reported using some form of physical aggression. Women were "6 times more likely than men to use severe aggression <19.2% vs. 3.4%>...Men were twice as likely as women to report receiving severe aggression <15.7% vs. 8%>." Also found that younger subjects and those of lower socioeconomic status <SES> were more likely to use physical aggression.)
18-30 Year olds 1991
Felson, R. B., & Outlaw, M. (2007). The control motive and marital violence. Violence and Victims, 22, 387-407. (Study based on an analysis of data obtained through the National Violence Against Women Survey <see Tjaden & Thoennes, 2000>.
Authors looked at 10,000 respondents out of 16,000 total sample who were currently married. Results reveal that adult women are just as controlling and jealous toward their male partners as the other way around. Also report that, "While controlling spouses in current marriages are more likely to act violently there is no evidence that this relationship is gendered.")
Married Adults 2007
Russell, R. J. H., & Hulson, B. (1992). Physical and psychological abuse of heterosexual partners. Personality and Individual Differences, 13, 457-473. (In a pilot study in Great Britain 46 couples responded to the Conflict Tactics Scale.
Results reveal that husband to wife violence was: Overall violence= 25% and severe violence= 5.8%; while wife to husband violence was: Overall violence= 25% and severe violence=11.3%.)
Married Adults Great Britain 1992
Brinkerhoff, M., & Lupri, E. (1988). Interspousal violence. Canadian Journal of Sociology, 13, 407-434. (Examined Interspousal violence in a representative sample of 562 couples in Calgary, Canada.
Used Conflict Tactics Scale and found twice as much wife-to-husband as husband-to-wife severe violence <10.7% vs 4.8%>. The overall violence rate for husbands was 10.3% while the overall violence rate for wives was 13.2%. Violence was significantly higher in younger and childless couples. Results suggest that male violence decreased with higher educational attainment, while female violence increased.)
Quote from: Mister on December 30, 2011, 04:41:42 AM
Statistically it's proven and justifiable once you consider the statistical differences between FTMs and MTFs--- As a whole MTFs are more likely to experience a sexist view of transphobia, a more employment & housing discrimination (in SF >40% unemployment, higher for transwomen of color), thus be forced into sex work (greater than 55% in SF), have HIV/AIDS (nearly 45% in SF, not counting those untested or not reporting), become more desperate, put themselves into riskier and riskier situations, etc.
This happens and is very, very real. Most people think San Francisco is some fabulous trans haven, but it's also a very real nightmare. Just because we're lucky enough to have laws that say that people can't refuse to hire you and will get stiffer penalties for raping and beating your head open with a baseball bat (one image that will never leave my mind) doesn't mean it's less likely to happen. One neighborhood in SF with a population of 25,000 has the highest concentration of transgender murders on the planet, 96% of which are MTF. Since moving here about six years ago, I've befriended 4 women who were murdered and been acquainted with several more.
Hey, don't take what I said out of context. Notice I used the words "anecdotally" and "tunnel-vision." My experience was atypical, and I didn't use it as a denial of statistics. I did have an mtf friend who was murdered in the nineties, and I have huge respect for data, but I think we can all agree that our own experiences loom largest.
And Bishounen, that's a nice list, but I still disagree. It's not worth bothering about though. We aren't ever going to come up with an answer to this that someone can't argue with, and it really doesn't matter very much.
All I have to say is I disagree that ftm's have an easier time passing before any medical transition. Maybe when you're a kid (and I consider a kid anyone under 18) because young boys don't grow beards, have big muscles and board shoulders, etc. etc. Secondary sex characteristics haven't set in so a younger ftm can pass as a young boy for quite some time. As an adult though? Good luck with that. I don't think the "default" social gender is male either. I've actually been doing a year long personal experiment now on how many times other adults in public clock me as male or female or don't use any reference (as in, they're not sure and they don't want to say). The vast majority read me as female. Why is that? Honestly for me I think it comes down to 3 factors: I'm only 5'3", I have "styled" hair that's got a little bit of length to it, and I can't grow a noticeable beard. 4 if I have to do any talking because I don't have a crazy deep voice. If I had to give an actual statistic, I would say 6 out of every 10 times someone refers to me with a female pronoun rather than male (and at least 2 of those times they don't use any gender reference). I can be totally dressed in obvious male clothing, my hair could be a mess, and I have never had very feminine mannerisms, yet the majority of people will still say female. I bought this up to an older friend of mine once and his take on it was that people error on the female side when they can't instantly determine gender because it might be more "generally accepted" that it's more offensive to call a women a man. I hadn't thought about it from that angle before. But I have actually corrected people, on occasion and if I feel up to it, and tell them I'm really male. They usually just get a little embarrassed and go, "Oh I'm sorry". Now if I have to show my ID somewhere, then things really get fun (still have an "F" on there and never bothered with changing my name). This year I went into the DMV and the guy at the counter referred to me as male. When he got a look at my ID he practically fell over himself trying to apologize to me. It was seriously like 10 or more times more apologizing than the other way around, so I think my friend's take on it might hold some weight. Any mtf's out there that can back up that opinion?
this is an impossible thing to generalize on, period. I believe that MTF's can easily stir the homophobia and misogyny that exists in males, and thereby causing suspicion easily around gender cues. On the other side of the fence FTM's do not have those things to face in the psyche of men or women. This is a pretty general point and I know that misandry and phobias surrounding transmen may exist but it is obvious they are in a much smaller degree. 'Passing' as it were, is something that is almost like an allowance by those who encounter a transgender / transexual being. The first 'exciter' that is likely to come up is a threat. From that perspective, FTM don't pose a threat to the gender identity of those they encounter as much as a MTF.
I'm not trying to make a grand bold statement here, but just wanted to include the essence of gender identity psychology rather than just strictly personal physical challenges, and also what psychic challenges may be faced by either side as they arouse gender 'suspicions' in those they encounter. From that perspective I believe there is definitely a quantifiable difference in the degree of difficulty making the transition. That having been said, in order to actually quantify that difference one would obvs have to collect data and do proper research.
Quote from: Kahlan Amnell on January 04, 2012, 10:01:10 PM
this is an impossible thing to generalize on, period. I believe that MTF's can easily stir the homophobia and misogyny that exists in males, and thereby causing suspicion easily around gender cues. On the other side of the fence FTM's do not have those things to face in the psyche of men or women. This is a pretty general point and I know that misandry and phobias surrounding transmen may exist but it is obvious they are in a much smaller degree. 'Passing' as it were, is something that is almost like an allowance by those who encounter a transgender / transexual being. The first 'exciter' that is likely to come up is a threat. From that perspective, FTM don't pose a threat to the gender identity of those they encounter as much as a MTF.
I'm not trying to make a grand bold statement here, but just wanted to include the essence of gender identity psychology rather than just strictly personal physical challenges, and also what psychic challenges may be faced by either side as they arouse gender 'suspicions' in those they encounter. From that perspective I believe there is definitely a quantifiable difference in the degree of difficulty making the transition. That having been said, in order to actually quantify that difference one would obvs have to collect data and do proper research.
Is it really, though, or are you forming the opinion foremostly from those that are Stealth, living sucessfully in their Gender and are not in the open?
I can tell you that discrimination towards transmen are
atleast as common as discrimination towards transwomen.
For instance, a transman by the name of Robert Eeds, that learned that he suffered from Ovarian Cancer, was refused by two dozen(Yes, two dozen) clinics for treatment, only because he was a Transman. When he finally found someone willing to treat him, the Cancer had already spread to such an extent that it was untreatable and he was already dieing.
The Transman Buck Angel have also had similar experiences where he was refused gynechological check-ups only because of his status.
Transmen that are open participaters in media, may, however, be the ones that are also the ones faced with the most amount of discrimination, even more so than the MTF's that figures in Media, or perhaps rather; Not necessarily a
larger degree of discrimination, but often a somewhat
rougher degree of discrimination.
For instance, the forementioned open FTM Buck Angel and another named Lando, have had several deaththreats posted in the commentsections on Youtube, something not uncommon at all for them. Ofcourse, there
are however more people supporting them than those threatening them, but facts remains that they have and do experience a good share of discrimination.
In short, there are no evidence at all that T-men are less discriminated than MTF's, in fact, they are atleast just as discriminated, only differently.
However, neither the discrimination towards MTF's or the discrimination towards FTM's generally have to do with Misandry or Misogyny, however, and no matter how ironic it may sound, it is rather the lack of it that is the very reason for the discrimination, as, for instance, the person that disrespects an MTF does not do so because he/she views the MTF as a woman, but because he/she views the MTF as a man. Hence, it does not fill the criteria for Misogyny as Misogyny demands that the discriminator discriminates
because of the
female sex of the other, not the Gender identity.
The same is the case with FTM's aswell; It is not true Misandry, as the discriminators usually do not discriminates the person because s/he views the person as a man, but because of Transphobia, or, Homophobia(Even if the subject for the discrimination may not even be homosexual).
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans-misogyny (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans-misogyny)
I think both are exactly equal, and if anything, MTF is tougher during transition and body image, and peer social discrimination (lack of dating, bullying and jokes from peers, employment problems) - male puberty creates absolutely irreversible height problems, and that is about the only issue in our world that cannot be surgically changed. Male hormones also create "brutal" facial features that cannot be by any realistic extent feminine. They also cause voice depening, body hair, and balding, oily skin, and acne all which require surgery and treatments. Finally, many require boob jobs. For the gals, many female traits "suddenly turn manly" only weeks into HRT. The voice magically depens, hair magically sprouts out, a male hairline magically appears, body fat magically degrades, and some even get much taller - for the FTM's who don't change much, today's society actually values the cute, boyish men (Justin Bieber) over the haggard, viking looking guys, so most FTM's aren't loosing out on anything socially. About the only thing they usually have to do surgically is breast removal, and many gals already have flat chests.
It's more that there are just bad and unsuccessful cases in either/or gender, but I do think MTF's tend to require more treatments and surgeries if they are past prime puberty. It's just the facts, it's just what's common. MTF's have it very easy if they manage to get on hormones at age 12, but past then, they're usually out of luck. I've seen 30 year old FTM's who take testosterone and suddenly turn into the most handsome, youthful, modelesque boys ever - hardly ever see that with 30 year old MTF's without the aid of surgery. What's not fair most of all, though, are the boys and girls around us who, without any hormones at all and even up til middle age, pass perfectly as their desired gender (or could, if they were Trans.)
I've never actually thought about who has it worse. It's bad enough for any transperson. To try to outdo one another is just silly. Yeah, but MtF... Yeah, but FtM... It's pretty rough either way and we should be supportive of one another instead of practicing our oneupmanship skills.
p.s. fire engines still aren't always red :D
Quote from: Kahlan Amnell on January 06, 2012, 05:02:53 PM
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans-misogyny (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans-misogyny)
Thank you for the link. :)
However, If it is an invented term from a book where the writer believes that trans-activism is the same as feminism, then what reason is there to take the term seriously at all, in the context of the thread-topic?
Fact remains, that just as with the usage of the term 'Misogyny' in regards of trans-discrimination, that not even the term Trans-misogyny meets the criteria for 'technical' Misogyny either, as Misogyny is discrimination towards a person
because of that persons Sex, not the inner gender identity, or, as Wikipedia defines the term; "Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls".
For instance, if someone sees a female, and disrespects that female because the discriminator have a disrespecting attitude towards that female
as a female, then that is Misogyny.
However, if nonetheless using the term trans-misogyny hypothetically, then it can only be used in the circumstances that the discriminator/s actually views the MTF as a trans-female, not a male. For instance, when transwomen is by other transsexuals considered as not being "enough" transsexual or woman, or, if a transwoman is refused to store her sperm pre-surgery, only because she is a trans-woman, and so on.
However, the term can
not be used in the circumstances where the discriminator disrespects an MTF because he/she do not view the subject as a woman or even as a transwoman at all, but sees a- quote- "Deranged" or "Masquerading" "man in a dress", as that attitude do not meet the criteria for Misogyny, simply because the discriminator do not hold the attitude he/she holds because he/she views the subject as a female but because he/she
do not view the subject as a female.
At the very best, it could be called Misandry, but even that is not completely true either, as it is not about Sexism but about disrespect towards someone because that person is viewed as "Deviant" according to the discriminator/s.
This being said, and if one once again is nonetheless to use the term hypothetically, then there are far more trans-misogyny
within the T-community than outside of it, as there are heckloads of more opinions and ideas about how a "Real Transsexual" is supposed to be
in the community, than there are outside of it.
Only one fully neutral after having lived both in statistically equivalent situations could ever end this "debate", but such a person cannot exist, so why try?
It's a fact that on many points, FTMs have it easier. Notably, their voice changes on its own and they have no hair to remove. And even at older ages, hormone effects are still quite stunning, in most cases. Moreover, in society, men with feminine-ish features are often considered more youthful, more handsome; and personally, they're in my tastes. In short, physical features okay for a man, even at the price of being regarded as a teenager or a "chico", are very vast compared to women's, especially before the 40s, after which women start to look a little more manly for natural reasons.
On the other hand, women with masculine features, unless they are combined with very feminine ones (very tall, square-jawed and wide-shouldered BUT super thin and virtually hairless, for example, is the spitting image of a model, but remove the "thin" factor and add muscle and your have an entirely different situation), are generally regarded as ugly/not passing.
But MTFs can't deny that they have it easier on other significant fronts. They don't always need breast surgery, whereas FTMs pretty much always do. Also, their genital surgeries are far less costy and give much better results, with much less adverse effects. Even if she needs FFS and a lot of money to do so, pretty much any MTF is capable of being extremely hard to clock, even when naked. Furthermore, in an ideal situation in which transition is started before puberty, a MTF is capable of being almost identical to what she would have been if she had been born female.
FTMs, on the other hand, can hardly ever hope of having normal-looking, functional genitalia, at least for now.
Each "side" has its obvious difficulties and easy parts. Some points I stated as easier for one side or the other may be contested, but the very existence of easy fields for each side is a given. Denying the existence of those is stupid. Of course, FTMs have it easier in the voice domain; of course, MTFs can attain much better genital results. But no one can successfully compare the easy parts of each side and say which has it easier. Any such attempt is bound to fail.
Ok, let's just focus on the hardest elements. For me, that would be this:
I go out, looking good. A man who is repressing his minority homosexual tendencies feels a sexual attraction to me, but knows I am trans. He blames me for making him feel attracted, and turns his inner hatred of his own tendencies on me, and wants to kill me. Meanwhile, another guy who is battling transvestism sees me, and it makes him wonder what he would look/feel like in my shade of lipstick, and turns his own self-hatred on me, and wants to kill me. Meanwhile, all the other people who are unhappy with choices they have made to conform to societal expectations resent that I do not conform, and some of them want to see me pay for my insolence.
FtMs certainly experience alot of the third condition, but I don't think much of the first two.
Hmm, I was actually referred a rather interesting book by my therapist the other month that contained this nationwide survey of transgender people (and this included FtM, MtF, FtDG, MtDG, Genderqueer, Androgynous, and Crossdressers.) with nearly 3,500 participants. It's called 'The Lives of Transgender People', and I'm not sure if anyone's read it, but I'd definitely reccommend it.
Anywho, I was reading about a particular set of questions in this book/survey that were about the subject of harrassment due to transgender status, and I was a bit surprised to find the following:
QuoteRESPONDENTS' REPORTS OF HARRASSMENT AND VIOLENCE
"Twenty-seven percent (955) of the survey respondents indicated that they had been harrassed within the past year because of their gender identity and/or gender expression. When reviewing the data by transgender group, 47 percent (49) of the female-to-different-gender participants experienced harrassment as compared to the 22 percent (33) of the male-to-different-gender participants, 27 percent (584) of the male-to-female/transgender participants, and 35 percent (231) of the female-to-male/transgender participants."
- The Lives of Transgender People (pg 94) by Genny Beemyn and Susan Rankin
Now, the survey then breaks up the harrassment based on age, sexual orientation, level of outness, and race, but overall finds that - while close - FtMs and FtDGs experience more harrassment than MtFs and MtDGs. I was a bit confused about this, as I was under the impression that MtFs and MtDGs received the most ridicule (due to society's intollerance when compared to FtMs and FtDGs) but apparently they're not. Still, it is a close number, so I wouldn't say in particular that one transgender group has it better
overall.
Yes, FtMs generally pass more.
Yes, MtFs have more advanced surgery options.
When it comes down to it, those two (passability and surgery) are the general issues, so when you think about it, we seem to be fairly equal. The main thing that would tip the balance in any direction, in my opinion, would be situation. Do I have a supportive family? Supportive friends? Money? A safe environment? It's the sad truth, but if you can say yes to at least two of these, then you are going to have it a bit easier than others, be they FtM or MtF or FtDG or MtDG.
What are MTDGs and FTDGs?
I'm surprised this thread is still going. And lol that it hasn't degenerated into lockworthy mutual potshots.
We're all kinda screwed, really. And on top of that, most humans are in some way or another. ;D
Quote from: A on January 13, 2012, 07:03:51 PM
What are MTDGs and FTDGs?
Male-to-different-gender and female-to-different-gender. :)
Like, Male-to-Androgynous or Female-to-Crossdresser or things like that?
Quote from: A on January 14, 2012, 04:34:28 PM
Like, Male-to-Androgynous or Female-to-Crossdresser or things like that?
Yeah, kinda like that. It's for the people who identify as a third gender, but not Androgynous or Genderqueer. :)
Thank you.
So, I'm going to try and NOT sound like a dick here...but,
I don't really agree with your comparison, yes, when you type it up like that, there are the same changes.
But the fact is that the changes are different in very specific ways.
When you look at an MTF they have these kind of obstacles when they're trying to pass.
Many MTFs are taller than bio-women. You can't make yourself shorter unfortunately.
A bio-man's facial features are different from a woman's. They're much more angular (( Typically )) Not always. And it's easier to create the illusion of angles than try and take the angles away. Yes, there is FFS, but it can only do so much.
Many MTF's also have larger hands compared to bio-woman, the infamous 'man-hands,'
The voice. To my understanding, deeper voices come from thick vocal chords and higher voices come from thinner ones that can vibrate faster. I don't know if hormones change this, but I do know if the case of an FTM, they're voices don't go back higher after the chords thicken (( Correct me on this if anyone knows for sure ))
No boobs. I don't really know how an MTF does this before hormones, but I know how hormones can help them grow.
And of course, the penis. Yes, MTFs can tuck (( Which I can only assume is EXTREMELY painful ))
Now, for FTMs, Obstacles include;
Being shorter than other men. I stuff my shoes with paper to gain another inch or so, but some FTMs buy lifts.
Some of us have 'softer' faces than bio-men, but jaw-lines can be angled with make up to create the illusion of angles. And let us not forget that the 'baby-faced' man is sometimes fawned over, which helps in this prospect.
If an FTM has 'girly-hands' that can sometimes change with T, but not always.
The voice. T will generally make it lower after a few months, helping with passing.
Boobs. We bind, and it hurts like ->-bleeped-<-. Biggest downside, right here.
Lack of penis. Packie or condom filled with hairgel.
I don't wanna be a snob, but I think this is a more realistic way of looking at the changes between MTFs and FTMs.
And I'll say, that on average, when I look at MTFs, I see more of them that I can say, "Yeah...I can believe that that was a bio-male," compared to FTMs where I tend to think, "Wait...what...really? NO WAY!?" However, there ARE exceptions.
Besides, there's more to passing than just fixing the above obstacles.
Things like age. Those who transition younger are more likely to pass because their body hasn't fully developed yet, and of course, the amount of time that they've been on hormones.
I'm not saying these things to be a douche or single out the MTFs, because I love and respect you all,
But...I will admit, that sometimes, it seems that they got the short-end of the stick. No pun intended.
I pretty much agree with GentlemanRDP on most points, except I want to correct one point:
Actually, tucking isn't very painful. It's just uncomfortable and unstable (doesn't hold very long, and is likely to let you down as soon as you run or sit up/down a few times) unless you tape... Well THAT one is painful, though.
However, we get much better bottom surgery than you guys, don't we? So I'd tend to guess this fact kind of balances out with the points on which guys have more trouble.
PS: The unintended pun was funny. o.o
I don't think either has it harder, it's all circumstantial.
I consider myself to have had a really easy transition overall. There are people from both sides who had an equally easy time, and then there are others who have a really difficult transition. I also don't think you can really say MTF's have to deal with X obstacle and FTM's with Y obstacle, because not all of us deal with the things being mentioned. Example, everyone points out MTF's have it better in regards to surgeries. But the lack of bottom surgery options isn't a problem I have to deal with because I'm good with what I have and don't want surgery, so how would this be something that is making my transition 'harder'? The same can be said about any of the negatives that have pointed out on this thread. They will only apply to individuals and won't hold true for the whole group.
^ This. Some have it hard, some don't, regardless of which transition they're going through. An MtF with supportive family/friends and loads of money doesn't have it harder than a penniless FtM who was disowned by his family, rejected by his friends, and abused by everyone around him; and to say that MtFs have it harder simply because they're MtFs is dismissing and invalidating the horrific experiences that some transmen have had (and vice versa, of course). It's completely impossible to judge which transition is "easier" or "harder" because the easiness/hardness of transition depends on the individual and his/her specific environment. All we're doing in this thread is arguing about the nonexistent experiences of hypothetical "typical" transfolk, which gets us nowhere because "typical" doesn't exist, only individuals.
Basically, with MTF's, if a Male has every scientifically defined Male trait (Brow Bossing, Beard Stuble, Androgenic Skin Properites, Balding, Body Hair, Lack Of Breasts, A Penis, Overly Large Nose, Butt Chin, Sqaure Jaw), then to achieve a 100% appearance of being Female, his journey will, according to fact and study, cost around $50,000-$60,000.
With FTM's, if they have every defined Female trait (Breasts, Vagina - there are no other scientific traits that occur on Females only, and cannot be 100% achieved with Hormones alone), then their journey, by statistic and study, will cost around $15,000.
In my opinion, $15,000 is something that a Student can accomplish, while $50,000 is something that most middle-aged adults can't handle.
Just trying to keep it real. There's no sense in playing the equality card when, when you take average person of both sexes, Males clearly develop more features that by no scientific definition occur on Females, while there are very few Female traits that do not happen on a large portion of Males, especially young Males. There's also clearly people of both sexes that, at rare times, Pass without even trying (there's both FTM models and MTF models) but I'm talking about the extremes that sexual development can present, which is what we more often see with people who have to get their support from an internet forum instead of being able to model fashions. These things mix and match, but again, science proves that many Males tend to develop traits that by no definition or statistic ever occur or have ever occurred on Females. And sadly, in our country, these features take money to correct, while many Females have the exact craniofacial shape as a pre-adult Male. If the government gave us all money to fix every gender trait, we'd all have it equal, but it's not that way.
But that's just speaking of the science and anatomy.
Quote from: R&T-Place on February 04, 2012, 03:36:22 PM
Basically, with MTF's, if a Male has every scientifically defined Male trait (Brow Bossing, Beard Stuble, Androgenic Skin Properites, Balding, Body Hair, Lack Of Breasts, A Penis, Overly Large Nose, Butt Chin, Sqaure Jaw), then to achieve a 100% appearance of being Female, his journey will, according to fact and study, cost around $50,000-$60,000.
With FTM's, if they have every defined Female trait (Breasts, Vagina - there are no other scientific traits that occur on Females only, and cannot be 100% achieved with Hormones alone), then their journey, by statistic and study, will cost around $15,000.
In my opinion, $15,000 is something that a Student can accomplish, while $50,000 is something that most middle-aged adults can't handle.
Just trying to keep it real. There's no sense in playing the equality card when, when you take average person of both sexes, Males clearly develop more features that by no scientific definition occur on Females, while there are very few Female traits that do not happen on a large portion of Males, especially young Males. There's also clearly people of both sexes that, at rare times, Pass without even trying (there's both FTM models and MTF models) but I'm talking about the extremes that sexual development can present, which is what we more often see with people who have to get their support from an internet forum instead of being able to model fashions. These things mix and match, but again, science proves that many Males tend to develop traits that by no definition or statistic ever occur or have ever occurred on Females. And sadly, in our country, these features take money to correct, while many Females have the exact craniofacial shape as a pre-adult Male. If the government gave us all money to fix every gender trait, we'd all have it equal, but it's not that way.
But that's just speaking of the science and anatomy.
And it's mostly wrong... I had a fairly masculine looking face until I started HRT.. Now and without surgery? I pass, but I suspect I have slightly different aims than some. My breasts are filling in nicely, if slowly, so no surgery planned for those.. Facial surgery is required for some, and some feel the need for it regardless of their appearance, but it is by no means required for all. And as I mention to Beverley below, there are plenty of women who have what would be considered masculine features, in fact, the woman I share my house with has a more masculine chin and jaw than I do..
I expect that to complete the physical side of my transition for around the $20,000 to $25,000 mark..
Quote from: Beverley on February 04, 2012, 04:59:05 PM
I can see where you are going wrong. There are PLENTY of females with attributes from your masculine list. There are women with square jaws, there are women with strong chins, there are women with hair problems or a big nose. Also, not every male has strong features that you list.
Indeed there are plenty of women around who have 'masculine' features, at least at my end of the island..
QuoteTo pass as female you do not even need to have the "100% appearance of being female", anything over 50% will usually do. Breasts are easy to come by for an MtF (mine are doing very nicely but I have spent more on chinese food in the last year than I have spent on my breasts in the same period).
Beverley
Careful voicing that kind of comment here Beverley, lest you be branded a heretic and burnt at the stake.. I happen to agree with you, otherwise I would not have the passing success I do..
Quote from: R&T-Place on February 04, 2012, 03:36:22 PM
With FTM's, if they have every defined Female trait (Breasts, Vagina - there are no other scientific traits that occur on Females only, and cannot be 100% achieved with Hormones alone), then their journey, by statistic and study, will cost around $15,000.
*spews tea* Wait, we're talking top surgery
and bottom surgery?! Idk what statistics & studies you're looking at but FtM bottom surgery costs a bomb the last time I checked.
In addition, as Beverley and kelly_aus said, many females have classically masculine traits. In fact I can't think of a single masculine trait that I have never before seen in a female.
Quote from: Æsher on February 04, 2012, 05:38:33 PM
*spews tea* Wait, we're talking top surgery and bottom surgery?! Idk what statistics & studies you're looking at but FtM bottom surgery costs a bomb the last time I checked.
In addition, as Beverley and kelly_aus said, many females have classically masculine traits. In fact I can't think of a single masculine trait that I have never before seen in a female.
many ftm don't even get it for that reason. i'm sure ftm would still want their breasts removed and a hysterectomy, which cost alot. ftm can bind, but from what i hear, it's not comfortable. you would have scars after the breast removal that stay there. people would notice them. people tend to associate females with being "underdeveloped males," which i don't believe. maybe an ftm can be more convincing quite naturally given enough time on testosterone, but who is really one extreme or the other? i would imagine if you had a body like marilyn monroe, passing as a man would be very difficult. many ftm who do pass report problems of "passing, but not as my age."
I think the main problem for MTFs is that so many start so late compared to FTMs. It seems like, at least on susan's, the FTM crowd is much younger (not that there isn't a number of younger MTFs including myself).
It's sooo much harder for an MTF to become passable when they start later, especially if they had difficult genes. Of course many turn out very well, but it seems like it's a much lower rate than the younger MTFs.
And I think maybe the standards a little different for MTFs because women are expected to put more work into their appearance. Some MTFs are not ready or willing to fit that image and it causes them to ignore makeup which is actually a very useful passing tool.
Quote from: Beverley on February 05, 2012, 05:19:19 PM
Yes and no. Older women are not expected to be 'babes' or 'gorgeous pretty' and as GGs get older their features do coarsen somewhat. Transitioning to being an older female is easier in some ways. Working against you is the fact that your male body has also coarsened as well, but a lot of this can be reversed with exercise, diet, exfoliation and gallons of moisturiser.
Well, if by you you mean me specifically, I stopped growing when I was 13 or 14 and I'm still pretty tiny and have very little masculine development. It's true my face changed a bit though, because people think I look about 16 now it seems. But certainly, someone my age could have changed a lot. I think there is a lot more potential for genetic luck to shine at this point. And HRT is still a bit more forgiving on tough genes. Once you get older, the finer changes set the bar higher and the effectiveness of HRT drops off a bit. I don't think you can actually reverse T damage, but at least you can cover it up with a hygienic presentation :)
Quote
You mean they are not 'trans enough?' :o ;D
I do know what you mean. I know some MtF people for whom boobs and SRS are all they want or need and they do not care about their appearance or who stares at them or what people think. Blending in is not something they care about.
Beverley
Sorry, I did not mean they are "not trans enough." I would never use that term anyway, personally I aspire to feminine standards and not trans ones ;)
But all I meant to say was, if you have a person who wanted to present socially as a woman bad enough to go through transition, it would be a shame to go through all that and then choose to not make use of makeup, which is one of the most helpful passing tools. And I see some people resisting makeup while still struggling with not passing and I just wonder why they would do that.
Quote from: pretty on February 07, 2012, 12:35:26 PM
But all I meant to say was, if you have a person who wanted to present socially as a woman bad enough to go through transition, it would be a shame to go through all that and then choose to not make use of makeup, which is one of the most helpful passing tools. And I see some people resisting makeup while still struggling with not passing and I just wonder why they would do that.
Quote from: Beverley on February 07, 2012, 01:01:54 PM
Oh I quite agree, but there are some for whom the possession of a female body is enough (boobs / srs) and they want nothing further. I do not understand it either.
Beverley
Here's my take on that.. Some of us don't like it.. Some of us don't need it.. And contrary to popular belief around here, not all ciswomen wear it..
Quote from: kelly_aus on February 07, 2012, 04:53:33 PM
Here's my take on that.. Some of us don't like it.. Some of us don't need it.. And contrary to popular belief around here, not all ciswomen wear it..
I was talking specifically about MTFs who are having problems passing but still don't use makeup. Makeup is a bit of a different thing for cis women because it's only used to look prettier. For MTFs, makeup is used to look prettier and to look more feminine.
Cis women can better afford to not use makeup. Unless, I guess, the MTF doesn't care about passing.
I always thought it was easier for MtF's than FtM's. At least what I've seen, it seems like MtF's are more respected for their transition than FtM's. I see FtM's being pointed out more as lesbians, butch's and such things more than the other way around. Maybe it's just what I've seen and maybe that's not the case
Edit: I'm not trying to start an argument..I'm just posting my thought
Quote from: Beverley on February 08, 2012, 02:59:20 PM
In terms of passing I always thought that FtM was easier because T alters so much, but in terms of surgery I am so glad to be MtF.
Beverley
And this is basically what it boils down to. There are pluses and minuses on both sides. For somebody for whom bottom surgery is very important, it's probably easier to be MtF (there's for the most part one surgery that does it all at a reasonable price (when compared to ours). If effortless passability is the focus, it's probably easier to be FtM. These are of course generalities, YMMV, and all that.
Quote from: Walter on February 08, 2012, 02:50:55 PM
I always thought it was easier for MtF's than FtM's. At least what I've seen, it seems like MtF's are more respected for their transition than FtM's. I see FtM's being pointed out more as lesbians, butch's and such things more than the other way around. Maybe it's just what I've seen and maybe that's not the case
Edit: I'm not trying to start an argument..I'm just posting my thought
i don't know if "respected for their transition" is necessarily the best wording. if you get called lots of the very cruel things mtf are called, i wouldn't say that's respected for their transition, but very hateful. i understand what you mean as far as how people could more see a male who is not masculine, but very feminine as something that goes beyond sexuality, therefore more people are likely to understand the concept of them being transgender, but that doesn't necessarily mean they respect them or try to be compassionate.
people have a better time with someone they take as a female being more masculine undoubtedly, and i could see how that would be more trouble for them in being seen for actually being males, and not butch lesbians, but just the ability to be accepted socially as that while being able to be more yourself. it's a give and take kind of thing there, but i could understand how hard it is to be recognized as someone "fit to be a man" when you are ftm.
Number of changes doesn't mean much, during male puberty you have more permanent and evident changes. More prominent bone ridges, a more defined jaw, development of facial hair.
FTM will generally develop these with hormones, while MTF won't lose them without surgery.