A friend of mine,70 years old who is sceptical of ->-bleeped-<-, made a remark that really hit home. When I told her about the required real life experience"living full time as a woman" she said, "Just what the HELL is THAT supposed to mean?".Good point. If this were the Victorian era, or the 1920's, or even the 1950's it would be an easy question to answer. But in 2012 America there is precious little difference in the way everyone lives(except economic considerations). Most women dress pretty much like men most of the time.The body shape is the main givaway.I wear leggins daily to do work around the house and yard, which has got a few stares, but since leggings are even worn by men for exercising now, even that doesn't always raise eyebrows.And in the summer I wear shorts,which are obviously gender neutral.So what does it mean. My friend said"The only thing that I can think of that fits now is GETTING PREGNANT', which perhaps is a little too much to ask.
Living full time as a woman, or a man has nothing to do with how you dress, but instead how you present yourself. Do you introduce yourself with a female name/pronouns, or with a male name/pronouns?
Live with boobage, aquiered by hormones-usage, implants, or falsies; present yourself with boobies for a week, see how different people treat you.
Quote from: peky on March 02, 2012, 05:28:05 PM
Live with boobage, aquiered by hormones-usage, implants, or falsies; present yourself with boobies for a week, see how different people treat you.
LOL I don't think so, there are some cis men out there walking around with bigger tits than some cis women.
Quote from: peky on March 02, 2012, 05:28:05 PM
Live with boobage, aquiered by hormones-usage, implants, or falsies; present yourself with boobies for a week, see how different people treat you.
Uhh, no. None of that is necessary. It's about presenting yourself as female (name, pronouns, etc.).
anyone wanting to be seen as a woman would choose a name, documents, look, clothes, and public presentation like a stereotypical woman...and ignore all those who say no need.
I started my RLE last September, about 3 months after starting HRT. My ex-wife had been calling me "Connie" all the time since about last April.
For me, "living full time as a woman" means that I use a "feminine" presentation all day everyday and I use my real name, Connie, in all settings except legal ones. My cubicle name plate at work says Constance even though I'm still David in the payroll system.
The presentation part for me is mostly about sending the necessary visual cues to those around me and it must be working. I'm addressed as "ma'am" or "miss" just about everywhere I go by strangers and friends alike.
I've been thinking of this more lately, especially based on my experience.
I submitted my name change application 5 weeks ago, though I had been using the new name for longer than that (I had to wait for a replacement birth certificate). And as of April 1, I only go by my new name. However, I was still using men's washrooms and change room facilities. However, over the weeks/months, I became increasingly very uncomfortable doing that, even though I wasn't fully suppressing my male secondary sex characteristics (e.g., facial hair). But around May 1, I had a conversation with a colleague at work (my department chair: I'm a professor), and just realized that I'm already "presenting female" full time, even if I'm not suppressing all of the secondary male characteristics. My manner of dress, social interactions, pronouns, name, and everything were consistent with a female gender, and so it made sense to stop using men's facilities even if I weren't suppressing the facial hair etc.. Shortly thereafter I had my gender designation changed on my driver's license (I mean by a matter of days).
That's the day I consider starting "full time" living. Everyone knows me by my female identity now and refers to me that way; I only use women's washrooms and change rooms (though it took another week before my sports club made their policy decision and announcement, with my guidance, I'm happy to say). So I consider myself full time even if I don't hide the beard shadow everyday, or if I don't wear my breast forms everyday.
It all raises an interesting question for what constitutes "beginning" RLE.
Quote from: rachl on May 21, 2012, 03:27:11 PM
It all raises an interesting question for what constitutes "beginning" RLE.
That's a good question.
For me, the "identity transition" really completed around Easter 2011. That's when I really began thinking of myself as Connie.
And again, for me, I went full time when I started my RLE. That's when I officially started presenting in my "target gender" all day everyday.
Quote from: Andy8715 on March 02, 2012, 05:10:36 PM
Living full time as a woman, or a man has nothing to do with how you dress, but instead how you present yourself. Do you introduce yourself with a female name/pronouns, or with a male name/pronouns?
This is english, you don't refer to yourself by gendered pronouns. What would you say?
"Hi I'm her-jordan"?
Which brings me too, what if your names gender neutral? Are you just not allowed to have one? Because that's a double standard. Hell some girls are given boys name and vice verse. The former of the two if it's popular enough is the cause of many modern gender neutral names.
I hate the term RLE for exactly this reason. 99.99% of everything I do in any day life wouldn't change in any way if I were a man or a woman. Nor would it for many other people. In english gendered pronouns tend to only be used in reference to someone else "she's funny" "he's a nice guy", when do you ever use them in reference to yourself? Especially when would you ever have too?
My shrink pulled the RLE crap on me, the shrink I had one session with and never went back too and now publicly recommend people not to go too.
She explained it as basically dressing like no ordinary woman of my age nearly ever dresses. Which is a ridiculous double standard.
In my experience, shrinks don't want you to act like a woman, they want you to act like their image of a transexual.
Quote from: lilacwoman on March 03, 2012, 09:08:58 AM
anyone wanting to be seen as a woman would choose a name, documents, look, clothes, and public presentation like a stereotypical woman...and ignore all those who say no need.
Funny, most women in their 20s I see don't see the need to do any of that.
Wtf is a female document? Paper in pink? A drivers license with an F on it? Our NSW, Australia licenses don't even have a gender marker on them.
So we're not allowed to have a gender neutral name? Normal women are. Same with clothes not that there's much difference.
Quote from: peky on March 02, 2012, 05:28:05 PM
Live with boobage, aquiered by hormones-usage, implants, or falsies; present yourself with boobies for a week, see how different people treat you.
Oh so dress slutty then? We're not allowed to dress modestly where our boobs aren't overly obvious then? Seems to be ok for regular women.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 21, 2012, 05:22:08 PM
Funny, most women in their 20s I see don't see the need to do any of that.
Wtf is a female document? Paper in pink? A drivers license with an F on it? Our NSW, Australia licenses don't even have a gender marker on them.
So we're not allowed to have a gender neutral name? Normal women are. Same with clothes not that there's much difference.
Oh so dress slutty then? We're not allowed to dress modestly where our boobs aren't overly obvious then? Seems to be ok for regular women.
But you're not regular women. I don't mean that as an offense I just mean that you were born male and as such are very Likely of getting read as male more than a cis girl.
But what does that have to do with one BEING a woman? Well, nothing. It's irrational (and deeply unethical, on oh so many levels) for psychologists and the medical community to require trans women to live up to some unrealistic picture and standard of femininity. It's insulting to transwomen AND women.
For me it means that a lot of the time I am wearing a women's motorcycle jacket because that is all I now have. 8) Regardless of the weather. And my name is officially Karen, and I use the Ladies loo. That's about it for the day-to-day stuff.
Karen.
Quote from: rachl on May 22, 2012, 07:37:48 AM
But what does that have to do with one BEING a woman? Well, nothing. It's irrational (and deeply unethical, on oh so many levels) for psychologists and the medical community to require trans women to live up to some unrealistic picture and standard of femininity. It's insulting to transwomen AND women.
I agree that the medical community needs to stop thinking of transwomen as living up to this goddess of feminity image. I just meant in teRms of passing.
I've never quite figured out what "Living full-time" was supposed to mean either, especially in my own case (where it's never been something I've bothered to identify). As a previous poster pointed out, this is english, so I don't introduce myself with gendered pronouns. My name is also gender neutral as heard, and isn't an English name anyway so a lot of people who see it written won't get the gender there either. Nevertheless, I haven't been gendered male since starting blockers around 15, despite not bothering with anything to change my presentation at that time. As for clothes, I just wear whatever I want (which in practice is a lot of t-shirts and jeans), but it's still obvious to everyone around me that I'm female and I don't do anything to dispel their natural assumptions because I am female so there's no need.
Have I done anything that constitutes "living full-time"? I finally managed to change the gender on my passport after having SRS a few weeks ago, but until then I just avoided showing ID cards to my friends (and didn't do a lot of stuff that involved ID), so I can't imagine that's the critical point. Plus, it'd be odd to have something defined as RLE that was only possible (here) after SRS.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 21, 2012, 05:22:08 PM
Funny, most women in their 20s I see don't see the need to do any of that.
Wtf is a female document? Paper in pink? A drivers license with an F on it? Our NSW, Australia licenses don't even have a gender marker on them.
So we're not allowed to have a gender neutral name? Normal women are. Same with clothes not that there's much difference.
You don't see them doing any of that because they've already done it, lol.
I wish I could get a non gendered ID. In Louisiana, they mark your gender on it.
There's nothing wrong with transsexuals having a gender neutral name. I was thinking about doing it and I'm sure many have done it and presented as female just fine. All I know is every time I tell someone my real name, they either look at me like I'm strange or they immediately go from calling me female pronouns to male pronouns. So I'd say it's quite a big deal for many to change their name so people actually take them as a female.
As far as clothes, same thing. Go ahead and wear whatever you want. If you want to wear boy cut pants with affliction shirts, you must be pretty passable in order for people to see you as a female.
IMO starting RLE is more of a psychological thing. It's when you go out and expect people to see you as a female. You don't really have to look it, although you may get treated insane if you're obviously male going around telling everybody you're female. Starting it is NOT necessarily changing your name, wearing girl clothes, makeup etc.
But as you can see, I'm a girl that obviously likes being the typical girl :)
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 10:36:40 AM
IMO starting RLE is more of a psychological thing. It's when you go out and expect people to see you as a female. You don't really have to look it, although you may get treated insane if you're obviously male going around telling everybody you're female. Starting it is NOT necessarily changing your name, wearing girl clothes, makeup etc.
Bolded for emphasis.
This is a great way to sum it up, to me. By the time I "started RLE" and "went full time" I already thought of myself as Connie. Going full time and starting RLE was when I officially left David behind, and made Connie public.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 10:36:40 AM
IMO starting RLE is more of a psychological thing. It's when you go out and expect people to see you as a female.
In that case, my RLE experience started in first grade. You see by that tender age I had not yet learned the "male' role, so I went around as myself, in my head, fully expecting everybody to see me as a girl, but alas all they saw was a feminine boy. The consequences of my early RLE were a daily beatens by the priests and seminariest, topped by the occasional kick and punch of my lovely Christians classmates.
Quote from: GhostTown11 on May 22, 2012, 10:19:34 AM
I agree that the medical community needs to stop thinking of transwomen as living up to this goddess of feminity image. I just meant in teRms of passing.
I finally saw a therapist who I was hoping to get an HRT letter from but he kept asking all this stuff like "Are you attracted to men? Do you want to wear make up and wear women's clothes? Did you know you were female since you were 5?" It's like holy ->-bleeped-<- come on. He actually really nice about it but the more I think about what happened I feel like it won't get anywhere. He complimented me on my hair too which I felt like was nice at the time but now I wonder if he was just testing me to see if I liked someone complimenting what is currently the most feminine thing in my presentation.
I tried to tell him like if I primarily just wanted to wear makeup/dress a certain way I would just do it, I wouldn't open myself up to the like 1000% of the scrutiny that trans people face. If it was
that important to me to wear a dress then I would be going out in dresses now. I also told him that I didn't have a goal of breast implants because I have not even had the natural breast growth and my goal is not "have breasts as big as possible."
I feel like internally I am MtF nonbinary if that makes any sense but of course I didn't even START to tell him that because his response would just be "well if you aren't certain/don't feel committed then you shouldn't do it." But I AM committed and a nonbinary sense isn't less real or less important, and I definitely know I'm not male and the less I think of myself as male the happier I am. (I have a friend who has started trying to relate to me more as a girl and I honestly love that too)
this is funny but I am ambivalent to face make up but I would love to be able to paint my nails and I really like looking at the things other people do with their nails. but again if that were my real goal I could just do it.
I painted my toenails once because it's easier to hide and that made me happy so maybe I will do that again
My RLE, CLEARLY started when I threw out ALL my male cloths, and PRESENTED! as female, used my best female voice, and started to be ACCEPTED by people as the female I AM. That is 2 years ago by now.
Trying to differentiate about dykie dressing, hair cuts, grumbely voices is NEVER going to cut it, if all those other 'male parameters' we bring along, come into play on top of it all. You will be 'mistered' no end.
So, it be VERY easy to notice if you 'sired'/ 'mistered' or 'madamed' by shop assistants, parking attendants and such folks that do NOT have your ID, in order to be confused/misdirected.
Well, there be NO need to be pregnant - though it WOULD help, if like two TS friends post-op colovaginoplasty have rather large tummies like 7 months pregnant. Being constantly asked when the baby is due... you have to be the age of course, not like me, and have the hassle to get rid of this bauble eventually. NOT EASY AT ALL, - if you can give birth to it!
When I go out, as again today all afternoon shopping, I get compliments for being very stylish... that's just me. Not even wearing nail varnish on my hands, only toes!
But if I'd dress dykie, those looks I'd get... will be more the 'clocking kind' no question about it. I'm 65, 22 month on HRT, no FFS, small boobage 38A that's all.
So, ... some work needs to be done. Transition is no 'free lunch' AT ALL. Believe me, and it can get RATHER expensive – just so long you enjoy the trip :)
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle on May 22, 2012, 12:45:55 PM
My RLE, CLEARLY started when I threw out ALL my male cloths, and PRESENTED! as female, used my best female voice, and started to be ACCEPTED by people as the female I AM. That is 2 years ago by now.
Trying to differentiate about dykie dressing, hair cuts, grumbely voices is NEVER going to cut it, if all those other 'male parameters' with bring along come into play on top of it all. You will be 'mistered' no end.
So, it be VERY easy to notice if you 'Sired'/ 'Mistered' or 'Madamed' by shop assistants, parking attendants and such folks that do NOT have your ID, in order to be confused/misdirected.
Well, there be NO need to be pregnant - though it WOULD help, if like two TS friends post-op colovaginoplasty have rather large tummies like 7 months pregnant. Being constantly asked when the baby is due... you have to be the age of course, not like me, and have the hassle to get rid of this bauble eventually. NOT EASY AT ALL!
When I go out, as again today all afternoon shopping, I get compliments for being very stylish... that's just me. Not even wearing nail varnish on my hands, only toes!
But if I'd dress dykie, those looks I'd get... will be more the 'clocking kind' no question about it. I'm 65, 22 month on HRT, no FFS, small boobage 38A that's all.
So, ... some work needs to be done. Transition is no 'free lunch' AT ALL. Believe me, and it can get RATHER expensive – just so long you enjoy the trip :)
Axélle
I think this is confusing RLE with passing - sure, for some people dressing a certain way helps them with passing but for others if their physiology is favourable (whether due to early hormonal intervention or just due to chance) they just have the physiological traits of their target sex and then it doesn't really matter how they dress to whether they pass or not. I know in my case I hadn't changed anything about my "presentation" at all when I started getting gendered female on my school trip to Washington, DC and during summer school at a different school a few months later.
None of this actually clears up what "RLE" or "living full time as a woman" or even "living as a woman" was supposed to mean. If it's exactly the same thing as passing, why not just use "passing"? Also, it's probably not -exactly- the same thing, if it's being used as a criterion for SRS and the like, as not all of the people who undergo SRS pass. Or does it mean one thing for people who pass and another for people who don't? If it's actually an antiquated construction based on gender roles that don't exist any more, why pay it lip service at all? Why not just campaign for the elimination of "full time" and "RLE" as a concept entirely, and not use that term to refer to oneself and reject it within the trans community?
To me, the whole "living as a woman"/"full time" deal brings up more questions than it does answers.
Well, if you PASS as your target sex, you happen to live in it, pretty obviously.
And if you don't, what then? :o
You seriously think just wearing a skirt now and then for "RLE" will cut it?
I think the two things passing and integrating/assimilating with your target sex are pretty much linked, now aren't they.
We can try split hair over it all, but if you do not pass - at least to SOME degree - you do not present as your target sex, and in fact you are NOT doing any RLE. Quite simple.
Because your Real Life Experience (or 'Test' in older terms) just DOES NOT HAPPEN then, as you do not assimilate with your target sex, you neither integrate with it.
Some folks try to do without any of this RLE and get a NASTY wake-up-call once they really then try to integrate and assimilate with their target sex of transition, and some then de-transition AFTER SRS or FFS, or BA, or what ever!
Going in a skirt every other week to a support group meeting... that is NOT in any way or fashion RLE. Call it what you want but it's not RLE at all.
Just my experience, YMMV
Axélle
I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.
As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.
As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. But seriously, how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky) that nobody will.
Well I think it dependents on your goals. "Butch lesbians" get taken as men all the time. I remember reading about a lesbian woman who got harassed over using the women's restroom and she ended up working with a transgender organization even though she wasn't trans. She just recognized it as the same kind of harassment.
That said, would anyone here say she was "really" a man? I hope not.
I totally respect femme people or people who want to try to pass as much as possible, but I don't think they're more of a woman than people who don't do that.
[Editing this on... I personally do not want to "talk, walk, dress, and act like a man," but it's not really an all or nothing thing. I think people shouldn't give up parts of themselves that they care about and it's not lazy to hold onto those.
Example here is that I am pretty ambivalent about face make up because I find it really really uncomfortable so far and I have trouble with self care so adding another hour onto my morning to work on my appearance isn't really going to work that well during periods where I'm busy 14 hours a day already (it's not like this now but it's not unusual for me). I don't want to have to wear make up to be taken seriously.
I HAVE been working on my voice. Go figure.]
Maybe it's actually what it sounds like.
Real Life Experience - the ability to put theory into practice and experience real life.
I don't think it has quite as much to do with passing, more like regardless of whether someone passes or not, totally blends in or sticks out like a sore thumb, can they function in a day to day world as the person they percieve themselves to be, and live a happy life.
Whether someone totally integrates into society and is never questioned, misgendered or otherwise treated any differently... or vice versa, well... they're both experiences of real life. Albeit perhaps a different life for each. Perhaps it's just a case of "can you handle the way people treat you day in and day out, and still be sure at the end of every day that you are who you think you are?" Rather than "can you blend into society and no one be any the wiser?" Because obviously, for some people, that's less likely than others. That doesn't mean they should be denied the opportunity to see if they can deal with not being the 'stereotypical' woman.
Perhaps someone's real life experience is a seamless blending into society, doing and saying all the right things so no one bats an eyelid. And perhaps someone else's real life experience is a constant struggle to be taken seriously, always misgendered, questioned and mentally exhausting. Both may be doing the exact same thing - living as they believe themselves to be - yet how convincing someone is, perhaps that's not the point. Perhaps it's more "can you handle it?" than "can you get away with it?".
I really like your description of that.
QuoteThat doesn't mean they should be denied the opportunity to see if they can deal with not being the 'stereotypical' woman.
And the line of thinking that says that she SHOULD be denied is exactly why people have been denied transition because of their height, etc.
Quote from: Sephirah on May 22, 2012, 03:51:40 PM
Perhaps it's more "can you handle it?" than "can you get away with it?".
EXACTLY! RLE is just to make sure you can really handle living as you think you desire, before you HAVE to.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.
As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.
And what makes you think that those of us who object to be told you must do X, don't also do Y, Z, and A? Sure if you don't do ANY of them then it may be difficult to get recognition, but one, two, or even three of those doesn't make you be automatically be read as male.
**********EDITED TO FIX MY QUOTE TAG ISSUES****************
Quote from: Carbon on May 22, 2012, 03:30:38 PM
Well I think it dependents on your goals. "Butch lesbians" get taken as men all the time. I remember reading about a lesbian woman who got harassed over using the women's restroom and she ended up working with a transgender organization even though she wasn't trans. She just recognized it as the same kind of harassment.
That said, would anyone here say she was "really" a man? I hope not.
I totally respect femme people or people who want to try to pass as much as possible, but I don't think they're more of a woman than people who don't do that.
[Editing this on... I personally do not want to "talk, walk, dress, and act like a man," but it's not really an all or nothing thing. I think people shouldn't give up parts of themselves that they care about and it's not lazy to hold onto those.
Example here is that I am pretty ambivalent about face make up because I find it really really uncomfortable so far and I have trouble with self care so adding another hour onto my morning to work on my appearance isn't really going to work that well during periods where I'm busy 14 hours a day already (it's not like this now but it's not unusual for me). I don't want to have to wear make up to be taken seriously.
I HAVE been working on my voice. Go figure.]
I'd like to start off with: I have no problem whatsoever with those who prefer to be called female, yet go about life doing things in a 100% male stereotype. If somebody wanted to say they're female, even though their presentation is completely male, I'll call them female.
What I have said, and will say, is based on my experiences of society and what I think is reasonable to expect.
I think it's EXTREMELY rare that somebody cis-gender is taken for the opposite sex (outside of developmental / hormonal abnormalities). If they are, and their presentation is that of the opposite sex, can you really blame the outside world for trying to respect that individual based on what they are perceiving them as? The example you list is awful, I feel bad for this girl (and a bit of "stereotypical idiots" feel sparks into my mind when thinking about her) but if her presentation is that masculine I think it just furthers my point that in order to be perceived as your target gender, it is wise to walk within the boundaries of it enough to be successful.
And Sephirah: I agree with it being a more "can you handle it?" than a "can you get away with it", too. But obviously if you can get away with it, you can handle it better!
In the end, it's a struggle to be yourself. If how you present yourself conflicts with your personality, it's likely you'll get harassed.
Quote from: Jeneva on May 22, 2012, 04:03:51 PM
As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.
And what makes you think that those of us who object to be told you must do X, don't also do Y, Z, and A? Sure if you don't do ANY of them then it may be difficult to get recognition, but one, two, or even three of those doesn't make you be automatically be read as male.
That's why I said "and" as opposed to "or" ;)
living fulltime as a woman doesn't mean exactly what you are wearing or what hobbies you like.
Living fulltime as a woman, to me, means you are a woman (meaning you present as a woman...and presents as a woman is presenting as female....not wearing a certain item of clothing or what magazines you buy or what hobbies you have...but it means you present as female).
And that means, to me, you present as a woman at home, at work, when you sleep, when you shower, when you use the bathroom, when you go out, when you eat. It's simply the meaning of who you are.
QuoteIf they are, and their presentation is that of the opposite sex, can you really blame the outside world for trying to respect that individual based on what they are perceiving them as? The example you list is awful, I feel bad for this girl (and a bit of "stereotypical idiots" feel sparks into my mind when thinking about her) but if her presentation is that masculine I think it just furthers my point that in order to be perceived as your target gender, it is wise to walk within the boundaries of it enough to be successful.
What I remember, though, is her saying it started with someone banging on the door and saying "What are you doing in there?" She answered with something like "I'm right where I'm supposed to be" and things escalated from there. Things should have
stopped there, not escalated, and that's what you can't blame her for.
I remember a forum with another cis woman who dressed in a very "boyish" way. She said that she didn't care if people took her as male, but that if they started referring to her as a man that she would correct them. "She, not he." You can't really hold it against people for thinking she meant to be taken as male, but they are responsible for anything that comes after she corrects them.
Obviously people who are not gender conforming in their presentation should expect more harassment, but that doesn't mean that they deserve it or that their choices are invalid. One should focus on criticizing the harassers, not the victims, unless she sincerely thinks that someone really just isn't aware of the risks.
Ditto to AnnaH's response.
Quote from: GhostTown11 on May 22, 2012, 07:07:40 AM
But you're not regular women. I don't mean that as an offense I just mean that you were born male and as such are very Likely of getting read as male more than a cis girl.
Ironic that you try to respond to my generalisation by generalising.
Why am I 'very likely of getting read as male more than a cis girl'. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, there's no reason any fewer people will see it as a duck.
Also I fail to see how you point actually has any relevance to mine. I can only assume your point is that we are somehow more inherently likely to be read as female so we need to do more feminine things to address that. Since I do not agree with the premise, which is that we're automatically more likely to be read as male, I can't support the conclusion either.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 10:36:40 AM
You don't see them doing any of that because they've already done it, lol.
I wish I could get a non gendered ID. In Louisiana, they mark your gender on it.
There's nothing wrong with transsexuals having a gender neutral name. I was thinking about doing it and I'm sure many have done it and presented as female just fine. All I know is every time I tell someone my real name, they either look at me like I'm strange or they immediately go from calling me female pronouns to male pronouns. So I'd say it's quite a big deal for many to change their name so people actually take them as a female.
As far as clothes, same thing. Go ahead and wear whatever you want. If you want to wear boy cut pants with affliction shirts, you must be pretty passable in order for people to see you as a female.
IMO starting RLE is more of a psychological thing. It's when you go out and expect people to see you as a female. You don't really have to look it, although you may get treated insane if you're obviously male going around telling everybody you're female. Starting it is NOT necessarily changing your name, wearing girl clothes, makeup etc.
But as you can see, I'm a girl that obviously likes being the typical girl :)
Not sure what you mean in your first sentence. But yes, it is pretty cool having non-gendered ID. I used to live in the state of QLD and they do have gender ID's on their licenses, mine said F so it doesn't matter too much, but I agree in principle that ID's neither need nor should have a gender marker on them. Thankfully the state of NSW, and I think most of the other Australian states and territories, do not bother, and simply have your name, address, photo, signature and age on them. Which should be enough to suffice for all the uses of licenses and ID, proof of residence, name, signature accuracy, and age of majority, linked with your appearance.
Feel free to throw that at people who claim we absolutely HAVE to have our gender on our ID's, somehow most of Australia's population seem to do without them just fine.
I believe that physical appearance and voice are pretty much exclusively what will ultimately get you read as biologically one or the other. How you dress, act, etc, are personality traits. Combined with an ambiguous physical appearance, those traits may be just enough to tip you into one side or the other in most peoples eyes, but unfortunately it's not what 99.9% of the population have to deal with.
Quote from: Axélle on May 22, 2012, 12:45:55 PM
My RLE, CLEARLY started when I threw out ALL my male cloths, and PRESENTED! as female, used my best female voice, and started to be ACCEPTED by people as the female I AM. That is 2 years ago by now.
Trying to differentiate about dykie dressing, hair cuts, grumbely voices is NEVER going to cut it, if all those other 'male parameters' we bring along, come into play on top of it all. You will be 'mistered' no end.
So, it be VERY easy to notice if you 'sired'/ 'mistered' or 'madamed' by shop assistants, parking attendants and such folks that do NOT have your ID, in order to be confused/misdirected.
Well, there be NO need to be pregnant - though it WOULD help, if like two TS friends post-op colovaginoplasty have rather large tummies like 7 months pregnant. Being constantly asked when the baby is due... you have to be the age of course, not like me, and have the hassle to get rid of this bauble eventually. NOT EASY AT ALL, - if you can give birth to it!
When I go out, as again today all afternoon shopping, I get compliments for being very stylish... that's just me. Not even wearing nail varnish on my hands, only toes!
But if I'd dress dykie, those looks I'd get... will be more the 'clocking kind' no question about it. I'm 65, 22 month on HRT, no FFS, small boobage 38A that's all.
So, ... some work needs to be done. Transition is no 'free lunch' AT ALL. Believe me, and it can get RATHER expensive – just so long you enjoy the trip :)
Axélle
Generalisations are the problem here, and I don't claim not to be guilty of it myself.
You have to take age into account, my generalisations were regarding younger women. Women in their 20s dress much more neutral than women in their 60s, it's just cultural norms.
But for most people my age, I believe, how you dress is not going to make much difference in how well you pass, especially if you're read as female, since we're expected to dress in more variety.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.
As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.
WTF is walking or talking like men?
Again, the problem is that a large proportion of the TS community unfortunately don't pass at the physiological level, or don't pass very well, and then project their experiences on younger people who do.
Why can't we act like men? This is 2012, modern women should be able to behave as much like men as they want. This whole 'acting' like a man or a woman are double standards and stereotypes that I don't think have any place in an equal society.
Go look on the FTM side of things, where they routinely dress and act like stereotypical men, and get read as women. Because they haven't started hormones yet and still look like them.
Quote
WTF is walking or talking like men?
Again, the problem is that a large proportion of the TS community unfortunately don't pass at the physiological level, or don't pass very well, and then project their experiences on younger people who do.
I sometimes feel like "the transsexual community"'s standards for walking or talking like women is a caricature of upper middle class white women with no disabilities or speech problems. As in, actually a very definite minority because if you add together poor women, women of color (or from the non-anglosaxon european backrounds), women with disabilties (espicially developmental/neurological disabilities), women from places with strong regional accents (new york, appalachia, etc).
I got told that I walked like a girl when I was a child, but I really just didn't walk like a boy. Besides my smaller steps I don't really walk like a girl either, I just walk weird and that is going to bring attention to me no matter what I do.
Quote from: Carbon on May 22, 2012, 09:00:01 PM
I sometimes feel like "the transsexual community"'s standards for walking or talking like women is a caricature of upper middle class white women with no disabilities or speech problems. As in, actually a very definite minority because if you add together poor women, women of color (or from the non-anglosaxon european backrounds), women with disabilties (espicially developmental/neurological disabilities), women from places with strong regional accents (new york, appalachia, etc).
I got told that I walked like a girl when I was a child, but I really just didn't walk like a boy. Besides my smaller steps I don't really walk like a girl either, I just walk weird and that is going to bring attention to me no matter what I do.
Indeed.
Upper middle class women.... 40 years or older.
Whereas most everyone I know are working class drug users in their 20s, it's not really the same demographic. ;D
honestly, i think you all are making too much of an issue than it really should be.
Just be yourself. Who cares what other people think (as I would think simply by transitioning that stage has been reached).
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 22, 2012, 06:52:41 PM
WTF is walking or talking like men?
Again, the problem is that a large proportion of the TS community unfortunately don't pass at the physiological level, or don't pass very well, and then project their experiences on younger people who do.
Why can't we act like men? This is 2012, modern women should be able to behave as much like men as they want. This whole 'acting' like a man or a woman are double standards and stereotypes that I don't think have any place in an equal society.
Go look on the FTM side of things, where they routinely dress and act like stereotypical men, and get read as women. Because they haven't started hormones yet and still look like them.
Talking is using a masculine voice. That will get you clocked before pretty much any other non visual cue. Walking is a presentation feature when, put together with other cues, would shift ones perception to understanding you are whatever gender. Acting like a guy will also get you clocked as a male if you aren't passing without question, too.
I had a bunch more to say but it wasn't on topic, so I'll leave it there :)
Quote from: Annah on May 23, 2012, 12:10:50 AM
honestly, i think you all are making too much of an issue than it really should be.
Just be yourself. Who cares what other people think (as I would think simply by transitioning that stage has been reached).
I agree, but the original question was (I think) regarding RLE, which is a measure of what it takes to be "eligible" for things like SRS.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 23, 2012, 12:12:47 AM
Talking is using a masculine voice. That will get you clocked before pretty much any other non visual cue. Walking is a presentation feature when, put together with other cues, would shift ones perception to understanding you are whatever gender. Acting like a guy will also get you clocked as a male if you aren't passing without question, too.
I had a bunch more to say but it wasn't on topic, so I'll leave it there :)
Obviously a masculine sounding voice would get you clocked, on this I agree. However some argue that it's more the words you use, pronunciations, swearing, etc, which I don't agree with at all.
Quote from: TheHootersShow on May 23, 2012, 01:55:11 AM
Plenty of boys I know talk like women. I don't call them "misses" or "she". Just not something I feel comfortable doing.
My point exactly.
I was a bit ambiguous before. I meant that the argument that talking LIKE a man would get you 'clocked' is something I don't agree with.
Back on topic...
RLE "Living full time as a woman" is about to help you NOT to make a mistake.
Doing the 24/7 RLE thing is an APPORTUNITY! to let you FEEL and EXPERIENCE what it will be for you to transition - before you get yourself into some sort of a mess, e.g. doing like FFS, BA, maybe SRS.
IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE...!
It is actually as simple as that. There are plenty folks who will find out, when REALLY TRYING 24/7 - it's NOT for them to transition after all .
TVs, CDs, Andro would be examples, or?
Nothing wrong with that, but the underlying reason is to EXPERIENCE living in your gender of "choice" ... now it may just turn out, this choice not to BE the right choice after all.
It has happened, you know.
Axélle
"Could you rephrase that? I don't understand."
Maybe someone else can?
I'm really saying what Sephirah was saying earlier, in my own words, and some others e.g. Alainaluvsu: "Transitioning is NOT a token effort" and RLE 24/7 aught to make sure you do not do the wrong thing.
Axelle
Time for yet another breather?
Axélle
I have removed posts from the Hooter thing, the avatar and comments are offensive. The thread may be disjointed.
Quote from: Axélle on May 23, 2012, 02:36:24 AM
Back on topic...
RLE "Living full time as a woman" is about to help you NOT to make a mistake.
Doing the 24/7 RLE thing is an APPORTUNITY! to let you FEEL and EXPERIENCE what it will be for you to transition - before you get yourself into some sort of a mess, e.g. doing like FFS, BA, maybe SRS.
IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE...!
It is actually as simple as that. There are plenty folks who will find out, when REALLY TRYING 24/7 - it's NOT for them to transition after all .
TVs, CDs, Andro would be examples, or?
Nothing wrong with that, but the underlying reason is to EXPERIENCE living in your gender of "choice" ... now it may just turn out, this choice not to BE the right choice after all.
It has happened, you know.
Axélle
Frankly, I'm a little sick of being "helped". It's seriously getting in the way of getting practical things done.
Why must the intelligent and cautious be punished for the actions of the stupid and impulsive.
Justifying, correctly or not, the RLE, doesn't to me justify its need to be mandatory.
Should we have psychiatrists put similar requirements on tattoo's, body piercings, permanent contraceptive surgery?
Should you have to have a temporary tattoo of the design you want for 2 years before being allowed to have it because you might regret it and have trouble having it removed?
We are adults, not children.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 04:52:06 AM
Frankly, I'm a little sick of being "helped". It's seriously getting in the way of getting practical things done.
Why must the intelligent and cautious be punished for the actions of the stupid and impulsive.
Justifying, correctly or not, the RLE, doesn't to me justify its need to be mandatory.
Should we have psychiatrists put similar requirements on tattoo's, body piercings, permanent contraceptive surgery?
Should you have to have a temporary tattoo of the design you want for 2 years before being allowed to have it because you might regret it and have trouble having it removed?
We are adults, not children.
Well, a LOT of intelligent ADULTS seem often not sooo adult when it comes to emotional issues, - let alone going through a transition from one gender to another.
There are quite some such adults, that despite being adult - actually make mistakes?
Starting with marrying the 'wrong' person, getting blind drunk, acting violent, way out of proportion (re. anger management), and God knows how many other conditions a lot of adults seem to need and seek for professional help.
If the issue of transitioning was all that simple a matter, I'm sure RLE would NOT be on the plan... like it or not.
Just food for thought,
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle on May 23, 2012, 05:38:07 AM
Well, a LOT of intelligent ADULTS seem often not sooo adult when it comes to emotional issues, - let alone going through a transition from one gender to another.
There are quite some such adults, that despite being adult - actually make mistakes?
Starting with marrying the 'wrong' person, getting blind drunk, acting violent, way out of proportion (re. anger management), and God knows how many other conditions a lot of adults seem to need and seek for professional help.
If the issue of transitioning was all that simple a matter, I'm sure RLE would NOT be on the plan... like it or not.
Just food for thought,
Axélle
So that means we need OTHER adults to govern our lives? And who governs their lives? And who governs the lives of those governing them?
You didn't respond to my hypotheticals.
Where do you draw the line?
I am an adult, and in matters relating to MY body I should be the ultimate authority.
For me, living 'full time' started the day I took off the mask I'd worn for most of my life and just relaxed and let me be me - no more watching what I said and did.. It was about claiming my identity and owning it. Within a month or 2 I had completely relaxed, I wore whatever I wanted, I did what I wanted.. Over time, my body language has changed.. My therapist has never pushed any particular stereotypes on me.. But then, he has only ever seen me as Kelly, I'd already started to 'present' as a woman by the time I had my first session with him. He's never seen me in 'guy mode'.. In fact, he's never pushed any particular ideas on me..
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 01:53:32 AM
Obviously a masculine sounding voice would get you clocked, on this I agree. However some argue that it's more the words you use, pronunciations, swearing, etc, which I don't agree with at all.
I've not done any work on changing my voice, I think it sounds masculine, my friends disagree.. I no longer talk in a forced masculine manner, men and women talk differently, and I talk like a woman. My voice certainly doesn't get me clocked.. In fact, just today I was in the company of 2 women, one of whom is aware of my being trans, one I'd never met before. The women I'd never met before was completely stunned when I was quite open about being trans in conversation with the one who did.. She commented that she'd assumed I'd been born a woman until I said anything..
Quote from: CindyLouCovington on March 02, 2012, 04:18:40 PM
A friend of mine,70 years old who is sceptical of ->-bleeped-<-, made a remark that really hit home. When I told her about the required real life experience"living full time as a woman" she said, "Just what the HELL is THAT supposed to mean?".Good point. If this were the Victorian era, or the 1920's, or even the 1950's it would be an easy question to answer. But in 2012 America there is precious little difference in the way everyone lives(except economic considerations). Most women dress pretty much like men most of the time.The body shape is the main givaway.I wear leggins daily to do work around the house and yard, which has got a few stares, but since leggings are even worn by men for exercising now, even that doesn't always raise eyebrows.And in the summer I wear shorts,which are obviously gender neutral.So what does it mean. My friend said"The only thing that I can think of that fits now is GETTING PREGNANT', which perhaps is a little too much to ask.
Hi boss. I'm a woman now. My new name is Cindi. Any questions?
;)
The workplace is where the rubber meets the road. That's where you really have to deal with all the gender issues and learn to get along.
Chin up!
Cindi
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 04:52:06 AM
Frankly, I'm a little sick of being "helped". It's seriously getting in the way of getting practical things done.
Why must the intelligent and cautious be punished for the actions of the stupid and impulsive.
Justifying, correctly or not, the RLE, doesn't to me justify its need to be mandatory.
Should we have psychiatrists put similar requirements on tattoo's, body piercings, permanent contraceptive surgery?
Should you have to have a temporary tattoo of the design you want for 2 years before being allowed to have it because you might regret it and have trouble having it removed?
We are adults, not children.
I'm a big time libertarian, so I do agree with you rhetorically. But we do have idiots that will sue any and everybody they can when they screw up. That's more than likely why we have standards in place like we do, and why everybody follows the standards.
Quote from: Axélle on May 23, 2012, 05:38:07 AM
Well, a LOT of intelligent ADULTS seem often not sooo adult when it comes to emotional issues, - let alone going through a transition from one gender to another.
There are quite some such adults, that despite being adult - actually make mistakes?
Starting with marrying the 'wrong' person, getting blind drunk, acting violent, way out of proportion (re. anger management), and God knows how many other conditions a lot of adults seem to need and seek for professional help.
If the issue of transitioning was all that simple a matter, I'm sure RLE would NOT be on the plan... like it or not.
Just food for thought,
Axélle
If you're going to make empirical claims, please provide some evidence. You claimed that it's happened before that people regret (or decide not to transition) based on their RLE experiences. So, show some numbers or evidence, and not anecdotes or a single famous case. The medical community passes off mandatory and lengthy RLE as a form of informed consent and for the patient's own good. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that one can justify this requirement at all (questionable), why a year (or even two)?
Utterly unreasonable. Deeply unethical and paternalistic practices passing themselves off as informed consent and for the patient's own good.
I've seen people regret SRS but they usually felt pressured into it by the legal and medical establishments, so...
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 04:52:06 AM
Frankly, I'm a little sick of being "helped". It's seriously getting in the way of getting practical things done.
Why must the intelligent and cautious be punished for the actions of the stupid and impulsive.
Justifying, correctly or not, the RLE, doesn't to me justify its need to be mandatory.
Should we have psychiatrists put similar requirements on tattoo's, body piercings, permanent contraceptive surgery?
Should you have to have a temporary tattoo of the design you want for 2 years before being allowed to have it because you might regret it and have trouble having it removed?
We are adults, not children.
The thinking behind the "real life experience" is fundamentally sound. Because SRS is, for all purposes, a "one-way street," it is important that the person having the surgery have no regrets about the change. Those regrets could end in suicide.
I just view it as test driving a car before you actually buy it, if you follow my analogy.
How does wearing skirts and asking people to refer to you by female pronouns tell you how you will feel about an invasive surgery that will permanently alter your genitals though?
Quote from: Cindi Jones on May 23, 2012, 06:37:31 AM
Hi boss. I'm a woman now. My new name is Cindi. Any questions?
;)
The workplace is where the rubber meets the road. That's where you really have to deal with all the gender issues and learn to get along.
Chin up!
Cindi
If you're not working when you transition (most commonly because you're a student), does that make things more vague? Levels of social interaction in a university or high school course can ebb and flow, and people can switch schools or graduate from courses in a way that make transitions quite vague. For me, it's odd using a criterion that isn't universal for a concept that seems to be universal ("living as a woman"). Even criteria like names or pronouns seem fundamentally strange to me - many people have gender neutral names, many languages have gender neutral names to a much greater extent than others, and many languages lack gendered pronouns entirely. Even English lacks gendered first person pronouns, so the idea of using gendered pronouns for yourself isn't a common experience in English. Identifying as a woman or a man is also something that's fairly rare.
Living fulltime as who you want surgery to be is important. This isn't a game, it isn't just part time or whenever you feel like it.
RLE is for those who plan on having surgery. In my opinion you shouldn't take hormones unless you plan on living that life permanently.
Its life, work, family, etc.
Quote from: Carbon on May 23, 2012, 04:01:35 PM
How does wearing skirts and asking people to refer to you by female pronouns tell you how you will feel about an invasive surgery that will permanently alter your genitals though?
Keep in mind that the WPATH Standards of Care apply to both MtF and FtM.
In some places, the Real Life Experience is required
before the onset of hormone replacement therapy.
Some people find that their experiences during their RLE are not conducive to full surgical transition. Some people even de-transition because of the stresses they experience.
Transition is a on-going process. Talk with many of the post-operative transitioners here for their perspective of the process.
Quote from: Jamie D on May 23, 2012, 04:16:35 PM
Keep in mind that the WPATH Standards of Care apply to both MtF and FtM.
In some places, the Real Life Experience is required before the onset of hormone replacement therapy.
Some people find that their experiences during their RLE are not conducive to full surgical transition. Some people even de-transition because of the stresses they experience.
Transition is a on-going process. Talk with many of the post-operative transitioners here for their perspective of the process.
But why would any of that mean that someone shouldn't be allowed to fix their body dysphoria related to their genitals if the dysphoria is consistent and they understand the risks?
In some places, the legal policy of "informed consent" is being instituted.
I understand your frustration with "gatekeepers" and guidelines. But the Standards of Care exist to help prevents mistakes - mistakes that sometimes prove fatal.
Yeah, what I'm questioning is what "RLE" actually has to do with preventing mistakes in regards to SRS. Beyond, you know, being part of giving people such a hard time that they give up and resign themselves to being unhappy for the rest of their lives and/or killing themselves. I'd definitely question if the current system has saved more lives than it's ruined.
Quote from: Jamie D on May 23, 2012, 04:39:06 PM
In some places, the legal policy of "informed consent" is being instituted.
I understand your frustration with "gatekeepers" and guidelines. But the Standards of Care exist to help prevents mistakes - mistakes that sometimes prove fatal.
It's being paraded around for being an issue of informed consent, but no one needs 1-2yrs of it. At most a month. But look at other voluntary procedures: do you have to get a diagnosis and try out a new set of false breasts before you can have breast augmentation surgery?
There are no real analogues for how trans people are treated in the name of 'informed consent.'
Quote from: rachl on May 23, 2012, 05:44:32 PM
It's being paraded around for being an issue of informed consent, but no one needs 1-2yrs of it. At most a month. But look at other voluntary procedures: do you have to get a diagnosis and try out a new set of false breasts before you can have breast augmentation surgery?
There are no real analogues for how trans people are treated in the name of 'informed consent.'
I think I'd require 3-6 months, a waiver of responsibility to the therapist (you won't sue them if you change your mind), and self reporting that the desire has been consistent for the past two years. Some people need more than a month to work through their stuff and this is not just cosmetic but something that can impact a lot of different things that most people aren't aware of.
Hormones are another issue entirely to me.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 23, 2012, 09:24:12 AM
I'm a big time libertarian, so I do agree with you rhetorically. But we do have idiots that will sue any and everybody they can when they screw up. That's more than likely why we have standards in place like we do, and why everybody follows the standards.
That's a problem with the system. The system should throw out stupid lawsuits like that without blinking twice. A bandaid solution to the problem is not fixing the problem. Also, how common are those suits really? And since you can sue anyone over almost anything, the RLE doesn't truly stop that, it just provides the same defense informed consent does.
Jamie D, you still have yet to actually comment on any of my hypotheticals, you just repeat the same thing over and over. Go ahead, defend an unjust establishment if you want. It's your right.
Personally I think it's disgusting and unjust to defend an unethical establishment trying to control the lives of adults in their consenting affairs.
Quote from: Jamie D on May 23, 2012, 04:39:06 PM
In some places, the legal policy of "informed consent" is being instituted.
I understand your frustration with "gatekeepers" and guidelines. But the Standards of Care exist to help prevents mistakes - mistakes that sometimes prove fatal.
First off, 'in some places' is weasel logic, what places? In what context? That's just playing with words to hijack the argument.
I'm going to ask this one last time, and if you decide not to comment on it again I'm just gonna stop posting in this thread.
Why then do we not have the same requirements for tattoo's, cosmetic surgery, piercings, etc.
This is pathetic, and no, I don't actually have to live with it. I do not recognize the authority of the psychiatric establishment. I will speak out against it and I will speak out against its supporters.
EDIT: When I get frustrated I say stupid stuff that could get me in trouble with the admins so I'm removing it now that I'm feeling a little less enraged by the lack of sound, rational, scientific based argument of hypothetical governmental policies.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 08:40:10 PM
First off, 'in some places' is weasel logic, what places? In what context? That's just playing with words to hijack the argument.
I'm going to ask this one last time, and if you decide not to comment on it again I'm just gonna stop posting in this thread.
Why then do we not have the same requirements for tattoo's, cosmetic surgery, piercings, etc.
This is pathetic, and no, I don't actually have to live with it. I do not recognize the authority of the psychiatric establishment. I will speak out against it and I will speak out against its supporters.
EDIT: When I get frustrated I say stupid stuff that could get me in trouble with the admins so I'm removing it now that I'm feeling a little less enraged by the lack of sound, rational, scientific based argument of hypothetical governmental policies.
Actually, a friend of mine recently went for a consult for some facial work and a BA, the plastic surgeon recommended the she speak to one of his 'colleagues', who happened to be a psychologist.. The plastics guy made it clear that if my friend wanted the work done by him, this was not optional.. My friend is not trans and is quite attractive to start with..
As far as tattoo's and piercings go, that are a slightly different issue, at least as far as comparisons to SRS..
Just because
you've had bad experiences with psychiatrists doesn't mean they are all bad, nor that they don't give useful advice..
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 23, 2012, 09:18:12 PM
Actually, a friend of mine recently went for a consult for some facial work and a BA, the plastic surgeon recommended the she speak to one of his 'colleagues', who happened to be a psychologist.. The plastics guy made it clear that if my friend wanted the work done by him, this was not optional.. My friend is not trans and is quite attractive to start with..
As far as tattoo's and piercings go, that are a slightly different issue, at least as far as comparisons to SRS..
Just because you've had bad experiences with psychiatrists doesn't mean they are all bad, nor that they don't give useful advice..
I can only go based on my observations, and I've dealt with a LOT of psychiatrists.
Furthermore you can see it in the history of psychiatrists and their abuses. Lobotomies, homosexuals. Just look at the crazy stuff freud came up with, or ray blanchard.
You only need look at the history of psychiatry to see why people hate them.
Why is it a different issue? It's still permanent, the principle is still the same.
Also, I don't have a particular issue with the surgeons wanting you to see a psychologist first (I hate psychiatrists far more than psychologists). My only issue is with surgeons being arbitrarily forced to make you see a shrink who then arbitrarily sets up little hoops for you to go through.
The system whereby surgeons are afraid of legal liability is the problem. That's what needs to change.
I don't think EVERY psychiatrist is bad, but I think the majority of them are arrogant, ignorant, and have an unfounded sense of authority. And I think that the history of psychiatry and its practices are largely responsible for their problems today.
I've never had a psychiatrist I've seen for gender related issues that I respect. That I think had any time for rational, evidence based discussion. (I've been in contact with 5, 1 was ok but didn't have much of anything to say, the other 4 I have no time for)
I have seen a psychologist I respect, and I have seen at least one shrink I have time for who I saw for my other mental health problems.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 09:26:08 PM
Also, I don't have a particular issue with the surgeons wanting you to see a psychologist first (I hate psychiatrists far more than psychologists). My only issue is with surgeons being arbitrarily forced to make you see a shrink who then arbitrarily sets up little hoops for you to go through.
You can use a master's level therapist and a psychologist for the letters, there is no need to see a psychiatrist at all.
Yes, the rules are silly and not uniform, but what does it hurt to follow them? I actually think we ought to be recommending yearly therapist visits for EVERYONE. A good therapist can teach a lot of things in just an hour. If me meeting with my therapist for 12 appointments that I would have likely had anyway protects even one single person then I will not complain. Sure I would love to see the timeframe reduced to something similar what is required for bariatric surgeries, but it isn't today.
Quote from: Jeneva on May 23, 2012, 09:42:19 PM
You can use a master's level therapist and a psychologist for the letters, there is no need to see a psychiatrist at all.
Yes, the rules are silly and not uniform, but what does it hurt to follow them? I actually think we ought to be recommending yearly therapist visits for EVERYONE. A good therapist can teach a lot of things in just an hour. If me meeting with my therapist for 12 appointments that I would have likely had anyway protects even one single person then I will not complain. Sure I would love to see the timeframe reduced to something similar what is required for bariatric surgeries, but it isn't today.
Oh sweet god. I'll tell you what it hurts, it hurts me.
The anxiety of having to see them, the money for what they cost, the time I won't get back, and their unfounded sense of authority causing them to lecture you and talk over you.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 10:28:23 PM
Oh sweet god. I'll tell you what it hurts, it hurts me.
The anxiety of having to see them, the money for what they cost, the time I won't get back, and their unfounded sense of authority causing them to lecture you and talk over you.
Wow.. Bitter much?
When I started seeing my psychiatrist, I saw him once a week for a 30 min session.. That soon became every 2 weeks, then every month and is now every 2 months.. Hardly a lot of time.. And, thanks to Medicare, not a huge amount of money. And I don't know where his 'unfounded sense of authority' is, I've never witnessed it. He's certainly never lectured me or tried to talk over me. Does he have an agenda? Sure, it's my continued good mental health.. Maybe I got lucky with my therapist.. He was recommended to me by other trans people.. He's never put a roadblock in front of me, has never suggested that I'm not feminine enough.. He's been nothing but supportive and helpful..
Quote from: kelly_aus on May 23, 2012, 10:48:51 PM
Wow.. Bitter much?
When I started seeing my psychiatrist, I saw him once a week for a 30 min session.. That soon became every 2 weeks, then every month and is now every 2 months.. Hardly a lot of time.. And, thanks to Medicare, not a huge amount of money. And I don't know where his 'unfounded sense of authority' is, I've never witnessed it. He's certainly never lectured me or tried to talk over me. Does he have an agenda? Sure, it's my continued good mental health.. Maybe I got lucky with my therapist.. He was recommended to me by other trans people.. He's never put a roadblock in front of me, has never suggested that I'm not feminine enough.. He's been nothing but supportive and helpful..
Not a huge amount of money? Maybe not for you. I can't speak for you but I'm below the poverty line and I can't afford to spend money to waste my time seeing some know it all I don't trust.
I already have to spend 130$ on medication a month, HRT is nothing, try antidepressants, antipsychotics, medications for multiple sclerosis and its fatigue symptoms. Neurologists visits, MRI's, etc. I can't afford to waste money paying someone to think for me. I think too much as it is already.
Maybe you don't witness it because you don't argue with them. I challenge, argue, debate, it's in my nature to question, which is why I so strongly believe in science and reason.
Your definition of a roadblock may be different to mine as well.
Maybe he doesn't challenge your femininity because you conform to his ideas. Based on your avatar photo, I probably don't.
Also, you and I are in Australia and have the benefit of medicare, our American friends aren't so lucky (although at least informed consent exists over there.)
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 10:56:09 PM
Not a huge amount of money? Maybe not for you. I can't speak for you but I'm below the poverty line and I can't afford to spend money to waste my time seeing some know it all I don't trust.
I already have to spend 130$ on medication a month, HRT is nothing, try antidepressants, antipsychotics, medications for multiple sclerosis and its fatigue symptoms. Neurologists visits, MRI's, etc. I can't afford to waste money paying someone to think for me. I think too much as it is already.
Maybe you don't witness it because you don't argue with them. I challenge, argue, debate, it's in my nature to question, which is why I so strongly believe in science and reason.
Your definition of a roadblock may be different to mine as well.
Maybe he doesn't challenge your femininity because you conform to his ideas. Based on your avatar photo, I probably don't.
Also, you and I are in Australia and have the benefit of medicare, our American friends aren't so lucky (although at least informed consent exists over there.)
The profile pic is somewhat of a misrepresentation.. That was taken at a wedding where I was a bridesmaid.. I'm usually to be found lurking around in a pair of jeans and a tshirt..
As far as arguing with my therapist? Yep, happens at least every second session.. If not every session..
OK, I'll admit there was a roadblock.. The having to see him for 3 months before he could write my HRT letter.. Guess what, though? That was a requirement of his insurance provider, based on the current version of the SoC's at the time.. He has told me he was ready to write it after my 2nd session..
No, I don't conform to his ideas as to what is feminine is - he has no hard rules on that.. Given what I know about his other clients, it seems that identifying as a woman is good enough for him...
I should also admit at this point that prior to my seeing him, I had thought all psychiatrists and psychologists to be quacks and frauds...
Everyone's situation is different :) I've had some therapists that I've liked better than others because I felt that they were more understanding
I'm not particularly wealthy either and I'm dealing with some mental and physical issues as well :-\ Affording the cost of transitioning is a struggle for me, luckily a dear friend has helped where and when they can
I live full time as a woman, but that doesn't mean I get all dolled up all the time :) I don't really know of any women who do
I actually feel that the answer is within the tittle of the tread :) That is to say that living full time as a woman is exactly that, living as a woman
Quote from: V M on May 24, 2012, 12:01:32 AM
[clipped]
I actually feel that the answer is within the tittle of the tread :) That is to say that living full time as a woman is exactly that, living as a woman
This exactly.
It yet brings to mind that it is difficult, often impossible to understand & feel what something is all about - if one has not EXPERIENCED it.
Now WHO will prevent one to go full time RLE? Who? Why not just do it?
Do you think for one moment, that say after SRS that "what is preventing one" will change in any way? --- I don't see that for one moment.
And as it was mentioned too - there are then always those people that will NEVER blame themselves, but always have to project a bad decision onto anyone else, rather than putting it into their own lap.
Look about you how many lawyers are kept in top living for that being their speciality, - to sue medical practitioners...
Can you blame anyone for them trying to play it more save?
I don't think so at all,
Axélle
Quote from: Axélle on May 24, 2012, 12:40:32 AM
This exactly.
It yet brings to mind that it is difficult, often impossible to understand & feel what something is all about - if one has not EXPERIENCED it.
Now WHO will prevent one to go full time RLE? Who? Why not just do it?
Do you think for one moment, that say after SRS that "what is preventing one" will change in any way? --- I don't see that for one moment.
And as it was mentioned too - there are then always those people that will NEVER blame themselves, but always have to project a bad decision onto anyone else, rather than putting it into their own lap.
Look about you how many lawyers are kept in top living for that being their speciality, - to sue medical practitioners...
Can you blame anyone for them trying to play it more save?
I don't think so at all,
Axélle
That's the fault of the legal system. As I said, putting a bandaid on the problem doesn't actually fix it.
I have always had the "piece of mind" since a very young age of knowing I should be a girl, so from the inside looking out that's is always who I have lived, now what people actually see might look like something else entirely! But I was able to tailor my mannerisms to fit my appearance so that I would fit in without fear of teasing, questions etc.
I am able to express my female side in my art, and when I am alone I don't have to use my male traits as a smoke screen to keep others off my back.
Lately, and as I got older I really don't care what others see so my looks are changing more to what "I" want to see as I walk past a dreaded mirror or window.
My wife has been very understanding since I came out to her so on the ranch here I can just be me myself and I all the time with no fallout or comments :)
I have followed a couple friends thru their required 1 year of RLE so I know full well what is entailed with that as an "official" step in the transition process.
Quote from: Michelle G on May 24, 2012, 12:11:25 PM
I have followed a couple friends thru their required 1 year of RLE so I know full well what is entailed with that as an "official" step in the transition process.
And what do you consider that to be?
Rachl, dont look to deep into what I said, this was 20 years ago and I was just referring to what they were telling me at the time ;)
Quote from: Michelle G on May 24, 2012, 07:53:45 PM
Rachl, dont look to deep into what I said, this was 20 years ago and I was just referring to what they were telling me at the time ;)
But, I think, this is the very point of the thread, and definitely the point of my re-igniting it (wow, that really took off). I'm currently thinking about this (in an academic sense), and I'm looking for what people consider to be the official 'start' of one's RLE. I don't think that there is a well defined way to do this, but I'm looking for the diversity of views that I think are out there. Right now, I suspect that the medico-psychological industry thinks one thing, but they're ignoring what it means to be a woman (or a man for transmen) and what it means to begin living "full time" as one's new gender. And part of what they're ignoring is the diversity of how women/men live gendered and sexed lives.
Quote from: rachl on May 25, 2012, 09:29:17 AM
But, I think, this is the very point of the thread, and definitely the point of my re-igniting it (wow, that really took off). I'm currently thinking about this (in an academic sense), and I'm looking for what people consider to be the official 'start' of one's RLE. I don't think that there is a well defined way to do this, but I'm looking for the diversity of views that I think are out there. Right now, I suspect that the medico-psychological industry thinks one thing, but they're ignoring what it means to be a woman (or a man for transmen) and what it means to begin living "full time" as one's new gender. And part of what they're ignoring is the diversity of how women/men live gendered and sexed lives.
There are some good points here.
I consider my "identity transition" to have completed around Easter 2011. That's when I ceased to think of "David" as the "real me" and began to think of "Connie" as the real me.
But, I didn't start publicly living this identity until September 16 2011, about 5 months later. So, at what point did my RLE start? I think it's safe to say that I wasn't "full time" until September. How does this differ from starting the RLE? I think that from the point of view of my transition process, my "RLE" started when I went "full time." But, it could also be argued that I was "stealth" before that date in September.
I guess it depends on one's point of view. From my POV, my RLE did indeed start when I went full time. And, that's when I started "living full time as a woman" because that was the identity that I was publicly sharing with all those around me.
Ok, when my friend & co worker came out to the company officially and started her RLE year she jumped in with both feet right off the bat! granted this was 1992 and fashions were quite different then, but first thing she did was buy a pink Corvette and then she immediately started wearing the skimpiest, shortest wildest outfits you can imagine to the office! she was having a great time and had the great attitude to go with it!
As the year went on the clothes got more conservative (at least for her) and she traded the Vette for a new Harley Heritage Softail.
fast forward a couple years later and the fashion was prairie skirts and boots, then eventually back to flannel shirts and jeans.
We always talked about the RLE thing and what it really meant other than exposure to the public as "female" in its many different personal looks and forms. I guess its a way to see if you can handle what the general public will be throwing at you and if you are really serious about the transition and beyond.
She was and always will be a great inspiration to me!!
I don't know? But I love that people open doors for me now. And I always got stopped if I tried to use the men's room. So now I use the woman's room and thats how I know I'm full time
nothing in particular really. to me, it's all about being myself and being happy.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on May 23, 2012, 08:40:10 PM
First off, 'in some places' is weasel logic, what places? In what context? That's just playing with words to hijack the argument.
I'm going to ask this one last time, and if you decide not to comment on it again I'm just gonna stop posting in this thread.
Why then do we not have the same requirements for tattoo's, cosmetic surgery, piercings, etc.
This is pathetic, and no, I don't actually have to live with it. I do not recognize the authority of the psychiatric establishment. I will speak out against it and I will speak out against its supporters.
EDIT: When I get frustrated I say stupid stuff that could get me in trouble with the admins so I'm removing it now that I'm feeling a little less enraged by the lack of sound, rational, scientific based argument of hypothetical governmental policies.
Don't worry. I don't take offense at someone who speaks from the heart.
There are places that don't
require the RLE before surgery.
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Real_life_experience (https://www.susans.org/wiki/Real_life_experience)
Looks like I really started something here.The IDEA of RLE is fine in theory, but in practice it is dubious.Not only hard to define, but other problems.If someone suddenly goes to work dressed and a woman, and wanting to be addressed by feminine name and pronoun, what they actually are experiencing isn't so much being regarded as a woman as being regarded as a public curiosity.It definitely would not be the same as starting work as female to begin with. As far as changing name legally, using the bathroom,until you have actually undergone at least some of the physical changes these may be legally difficult or impossible. It is understandable that doctors want to avoid lawsuits, but it is doubtful that this really does that much good.And since there is no longer that much difference in the way men and women live anyway, how is this going to tell you anything?
There's been a lot to follow in this thread and from a purely pragmatic standpoint wrt to RLE the answer for me in the UK is deed pole name change - which is a legal hoop to jump through to begin change your name everywhere. From an SRS standpoint, this marks the first day of the 1 year RLE period.
IMHO gender is much more than genitals. For me, changing my anatomy won't change my comfort levels in the world, being myself will. A one year "trial" period for my life is a bizarre notion and I think a better process is waiting to be found for surgical intervention.
Like others have said, it's what you say and do and feel. In my mind it's far too abstract a notion for me to define. I can honestly say that I've never really "lived as a man" in my lifetime simply because I've never related to what is typical "male behaviour". That doesn't mean I never learned to do or behave as a "man", but it was never instinctive and/or comfortable. In my experience, a lot of that was me trying to fit in and was motivated by shame, fear, and all the rest of the crap. That for me came from what I perceived about being trans* and my own internal BS about being trans*. Once I got over that, then living as *myself* became a whole lot easier.
As a woman in society, I don't need to show my genitals to anyone. Getting on with *my* life, interacting with people the way that feels right and is instinctive to me is what "Living full time as a woman" means for me. More succinctly it's: Living full time as myself. Those interactions, and the way that I instinctively conduct those interactions are perceived by those around me as those of a "woman". As much as it's no one else's business how I live my life, society is divided up in lots of different ways with woman/man being at the top of the list. I'm perceived as a woman. Lucky for me, this is what feels right for me.
**edits to clean up some really awkward phrasing
QuoteLike others have said, it's what you say and do and feel. In my mind it's far too abstract a notion for me to define. I can honestly say that I've never really "lived as a man" in my lifetime simply because I've never related to what is typical "male behaviour". That doesn't mean I never learned to do or behave as a "man", but it was never been instinctive and/or comfortable. In my experience a lot of that was motivated me to try to fit in was out of shame, fear, and all the rest of the crap. That for me came from what I perceived about being trans* and my own internal BS about being trans*. Once I got over that, then living as *myself* became a whole lot easier.
very well said and how I feel also!
what if they required for us to show "we are not really male" instead of showing that "we can be female" ?
I agree that the process needs to be reevaluated somewhat
Quote from: Michelle G on June 02, 2012, 11:53:23 AM
what if they required for us to show "we are not really male" ?
Heh. :) There were soooo many occasions pre-transition that people just looked at me and wondered. And the girlfriends who remarked that my thinking was different. Oh well.
"To thine own self be true"
I do feel like that if SRS were covered under a national healthcare system that there would need to be some kind of system in place to establish that it's actually necessary, just like with any other procedure. This isn't so much to protect from themselves as it is to use public funds in a responsible way.
People in the US are basically paying out of pocket, though, so...
I think the real life requirement has more to do with how others are perceiving you and how successfully you're able to live and function while being perceived by others in that way. It's a requirement design for OTHER people. Not for US. You define you're own "real life experience/fulltime experience" as male or female on your own. The requirement and how you see being fulltime are two seperate things because being fulltime cant be defined, really. it's all very individually based.
Quote from: cryan91 on June 03, 2012, 03:00:58 PM
I think the real life requirement has more to do with how others are perceiving you and how successfully you're able to live and function while being perceived by others in that way. It's a requirement design for OTHER people. Not for US. You define you're own "real life experience/fulltime experience" as male or female on your own. The requirement and how you see being fulltime are two seperate things because being fulltime cant be defined, really. it's all very individually based.
1. It's explicitly offered as an aspect of informed consent for the patient.
2. The diagnosis procedures serve the gateway function. At most, one month of RLE should be required...AT MOST.
There are medically covered breast augmentations (usually downward): they don't require a mental diagnosis or for someone to pretend living with smaller breasts for a period of time. There really isn't a SINGLE analogue to the RLE for any other medically covered procedure. So that reasoning is BS.
Finally! Surgeons typically require the RLE even if the patient pays.
the rle is bs.
I'm writing this to offer support for those people who do not fit into neat categories, or those who do not prefer to wear makeup, or those who prefer not to have their marriage annulled by a legal gender change, or those who for safety reasons are unable to live full time as an unpassable woman. In short, you don't have to, and you can still get the blessed surgical relief the rest of us have (hopefully) enjoyed.
Sorry, don't mean to be categorical, but this is a big pet peeve of mine. As someone who knew what gender I was (NoT the one into which I was born), I resented any directives that placed my gender future in the terms of whether I changed my name or wore a skirt or told people what my gender was. Although I identify as a female, I am more androgynous in appearance. I never liked feminine clothes, although all of my clothes are bought from the female racks. I never liked makeup, but then again, neither does my cisfemale wife, who has supported me through my transition in more ways than I could say. Plus I live in eastern Europe, where very simply put if you cannot pass 100% of the time, you will eventually be physically put to grave danger. I am okay regarding passing, but not 100%. That is not acceptable for me or for my wife. Who, incidentally, would be deported if I changed my passport to F because same-sex marriage is illegal in my homophobic country, and she is an immigrant.
In short, for anyone who knows what they want / need but feel the RLE requirement will significantly ruin / damage their lives, they can be excused by an empathetic psychologist / surgeon. My US psychologist and my being 12 days post-op by Dr Suporn of Thailand can attest to that.
RLE, while trying to minimize the risk of regret for us, fails to understand that for most of us, we've had 20, 30, 40, 50+ years to digest, absorb and understand who we are. They are flexible enough to allow that you might also at this point know how you wish to present yourself to the world. Thank god.
Quote from: Alainaluvsu on May 22, 2012, 03:16:37 PM
I agree with Axelle to a certain degree. RLE is at least trying to pass. Full time is RLE 24/7. Transitioning is not just a token effort to go to the mall in make up and pick out a tube of lipstick IMO.
As far as SRS requirements and so forth go, I think the whole full time criteria is living as at least an honest attempt at fitting in as a female. Before I get side swiped by the whole "BUT CIS GIRLS CAN BE TOM BOY!" routine: how many females do you know go around dressed, talking, walking, acting like men? Yeah they're out there, but to those saying they want to dress, talk, walk, and act like a guy, do you REALLY think anybody is going to consider YOU as a female if you do so? Sorry, but chances are (unless you are pretty freaking lucky at the physiological level) that nobody will.
that sounds like the majority of girls in my town LOL
I've been living full time since May 2012. For a year up until then, I was living as an androgynous being because I would wear men and women's clothing on and off, I would take mens roles when it came to theatre and I just didn't really care about femininity or passing. For a while I didn't even know I was for sure going to transition. I finally decided I wanted to transition around February and that's when I started getting serious about being less androgynous, etc but now I'm a student and I recently decided that I like being androgynous every now and then. I'm still full time but now I can be a full time girly girl or a full time tomboy! Since going full time I always get treated as a woman wherever I go and I love it, it's major reassurance and I think everyone likes some reassurance every now and then lol. I just know I'm a woman and that's all that matters.
Living full time as a woman is just that living as a woman 24/7. Please do not make it more difficult than it has to be.
Old thread, good topic. I SHALL RESURRECT YOU, thou art a worthy topic!
I never introduced myself to anyone as "Hi I'm chris, refer to me as "he" please". I see no use in saying "Hi I'm ______(any female name), refer to me as "she" please". Last time I checked, some girls have guy's names, some guys have girls names. Many have neutral names.
Do I need to go to everybody I know in my classes and tell them to say "she" now... I don't really know them that well. People know me as chris, so I might legally change my name to Christina or Christine but still go by Chris.
So I will continue to introduce myself as Chris, and I will physically present however I feel at the time, maybe i'll be lazy and wear sweats and a normal t shirt. Maybe i'll wear a hooker dress and heels LOL. Am I presenting as any less feminine by one or the other?
I think bra/ hair is big. Maybe i'm hardcore butch lesbian and shave my head and wear guys clothes... is that "living full time as a woman"... idk. It's different for everyone and a good therapist will know that, especially if you have a decent conversation with them.