I don't like drama and try to avoid it every chance I get. But lately, three weeks ago, my "best friend" of four years made it clear she never wanted to talk to me again. Every time we made plans to hang out, she ALWAYS cancelled. She's been doing this for a long time. I called her out on it, and she made it look like it was my fault. She was accusing me of cancelling on her, which irritates me, because I've never cancelled, I'v e always been there, waiting for her to show up. Anyways, that stuff aside, now she's out of my life. I'm actually glad. But what really crushed me, was my other best friend of two years who is also my singing teacher (the same girl I have a huge crush on). She charges an unfair amount for her lessons, I confessed how I feel about her and she said "we can be friends" but she's only ever texted me back once and when I say "let's hang out" she doesn't follow up on it (I'm not out yet btw, and I'm not even presenting as male at all). She also forgets to give me back change she owes me and she's done that more than once. Two weeks ago I couldn't make it to her new opera she was in, and she acted all disappointed, which surprised me. Now I just feel like she wanted me there just to make her look good because I was her student. I want to get a new voice coach, but I tried not talking to her, and that messes me up. I feel like I'm all alone, and I know I've got you guys, but I've been crying myself to sleep for the past three days because I don't know what to do with this girl. I don't want her to use me anymore, and the only way to do that is to stop talking to her. But I can't bear that thought. So ya. That's what I've been up to for the past month. How to cope in this situation? Have you ever been used? Was it a friendship? A love interest? Both? How did you deal with it? This has made my suicide thoughts much worse and I'm worried of something happening.
Quote from: Cody Jensen on April 13, 2012, 09:55:15 PM
I don't want her to use me anymore, and the only way to do that is to stop talking to her. But I can't bear that thought.
How is that the only way? Tell her to give you back your change and renegotiate what she charges. Even if you don't currently have a back up, tell her that if things don't change, you will go somewhere else. Don't let her use you. Stick with her if you want to, but do it on your own terms or compromise to get a better deal.
I'm sure I've been used before. Definitely sure of it. It really sucked, but that was a bad time in my life overall. Knowing what I know now, I would have never put up with all that mess. Not worth it. Now I'm more focused on compromising or getting the hell out if it's an impossible situation.
Quote from: Adio on April 13, 2012, 10:11:55 PM
How is that the only way? Tell her to give you back your change and renegotiate what she charges. Even if you don't currently have a back up, tell her that if things don't change, you will go somewhere else. Don't let her use you. Stick with her if you want to, but do it on your own terms or compromise to get a better deal.
I'm sure I've been used before. Definitely sure of it. It really sucked, but that was a bad time in my life overall. Knowing what I know now, I would have never put up with all that mess. Not worth it. Now I'm more focused on compromising or getting the hell out if it's an impossible situation.
I feel as though if I do stop talking to her, she won't ever talk to me again. I can't have it both ways.
Sorry to hear this, Cody. I agree with Adio - be upfront with this girl. I mean what's there to lose? If you keep quiet and ignore her, you look like a jerk and she gets fed up or you both simply just stop talking. If you tell her that you need to negotiate the lesson pricing, then she either throws a tantrum or accepts it - or at least compromises. As far as a relationship goes, she's given you her answer. I don't honestly think it's worth wasting your energy on. I've been used, and eventually you wake up and realise it's not going to change. There will be life and friends and love after these people.
Quote from: Cody Jensen on April 13, 2012, 10:45:21 PM
I feel as though if I do stop talking to her, she won't ever talk to me again. I can't have it both ways.
Why would you have to stop talking to her? If you didn't take lessons from her, you could still talk as friends. I'm not sure what you can't have "both ways". Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.
I actually recently was contacted by a friend who I feel used me and never saw me as an equal. Back when we hung out I was far more broken than I am now, though, and so I was a weaker person. I'm having to renegotiate our relationship now. I correct her when she puts me down or is dismissive about things I care about, and I don't give her time or energy I'd rather have for myself or others. Patterns are hard to shake and maybe she's just not a good person for me to be around, but I'm not going to flat-out avoid her without first making an effort to get along on healthier terms.
Good luck however you deal with it. Crying yourself to sleep is dangerous. Find ways to smile and keep your feet on the ground.
Quote from: Kreuzfidel on April 13, 2012, 10:47:24 PM
Sorry to hear this, Cody. I agree with Adio - be upfront with this girl. I mean what's there to lose? If you keep quiet and ignore her, you look like a jerk and she gets fed up or you both simply just stop talking. If you tell her that you need to negotiate the lesson pricing, then she either throws a tantrum or accepts it - or at least compromises. As far as a relationship goes, she's given you her answer. I don't honestly think it's worth wasting your energy on. I've been used, and eventually you wake up and realise it's not going to change. There will be life and friends and love after these people.
I don't know how I'm going to move on. I've already lost one person, my family and I aren't close at all so I literally feel like I have no one. And as cheesy as this sounds I don't know how I'm going to deal with the pain in my chest. I kept hanging onto the hope that one day I'd get my chance to sing my heart out to her in front of a whole crowd and she'd fall for me in that moment. I believed that for so long and I feel so foolish now. This is going to be hard, I get very attached to some people.
Quote from: Adio on April 13, 2012, 11:24:30 PM
Why would you have to stop talking to her? If you didn't take lessons from her, you could still talk as friends. I'm not sure what you can't have "both ways". Not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand.
Because we wouldn't even be friends through lessons, she'd completely stop talking to me. Btw we agreed on "student rate" which is a lot more affordable. But I still don't know how to deal with the fact that she's using me, and I don't like it at all. I'm so sick of being used.
*BIG HUGS*
I'm sorry I can't say anything to make it easier. I've been used too. Each time, all I can do is force myself to do what I need to do to stay alive and sane.
I agree that being upfront would be a good idea. It might turn out to be a fixable situation.
Quote from: Edge on April 14, 2012, 06:01:11 AM
*BIG HUGS*
I'm sorry I can't say anything to make it easier. I've been used too. Each time, all I can do is force myself to do what I need to do to stay alive and sane.
I agree that being upfront would be a good idea. It might turn out to be a fixable situation.
But my sanity's quickly slipping away. Upfront? But what do I say? I was thinking of something like "it's dangerous for myself to be around you". I don't WANT to make this more dramatic though.. I need a script :(
Quote from: Cody Jensen on April 14, 2012, 12:34:08 PM
But my sanity's quickly slipping away. Upfront? But what do I say? I was thinking of something like "it's dangerous for myself to be around you". I don't WANT to make this more dramatic though.. I need a script :(
I think you have to figure out what you want/need to do first. Do you want to stay friends? Do you want to continue lessons with her? Do you want her to give your change back? Do you want her to reduce your rate? Do you want to continue to talk to her? Do you want to go to her operas, shows, etc?
Based on your answers to these questions (yes/no), then you can go from there. Without having a clear picture in mind, all you're going to get is more misery.
Quote from: Adio on April 14, 2012, 01:01:24 PM
I think you have to figure out what you want/need to do first. Do you want to stay friends? Do you want to continue lessons with her? Do you want her to give your change back? Do you want her to reduce your rate? Do you want to continue to talk to her? Do you want to go to her operas, shows, etc?
Based on your answers to these questions (yes/no), then you can go from there. Without having a clear picture in mind, all you're going to get is more misery.
This ^
If she would completely stop talking to you because you didn't take lessons from her then that's not a friend. It may appear that she's more interested in the "you giving her money" part of the relationship. For me when I am crushing on a woman I just want to give her all my money. If she is short changing you then that is not a friend.
Like Adio implied it's best see what you want first. Had it been ME I would drop her in a heartbeat. I was going through some threads a from a while ago and you mentioned tap danving or some sort. What happened to that dream?
I had people use me all the time in my life....my last two online ex girlfriends and a few of friends from years ago. How do I cope with it? I just shut down and be less trusting of people to sugar coat it.
It seems like there are a couple things happening here at the same time. The first is getting a way of being with her - as a student, as a friend - which doesn't leave you feeling used or cheated. The other thing is managing your own feelings, fantasies of being with her romantically, and getting through the time when you are apart and things are uncertain.
Honestly, the second one is the most urgent right now. If you are having feelings of hurting yourself, or thoughts of suicide, please get in touch with a counselor, if you have one. If you don't, or you don't feel like calling them today, you can call the Trevor Project phone line at 866-488-7386. Feeling like being with an unpredictable person is "dangerous" doesn't give you the best chances of having a forthright conversation with her.
About the music lessons etc: if she owes you money, and you know how much, you can just let her know that your next payment is coming out of the "change." That's treating you both like adults. You don't have to attend her performances if you don't want to, and if she holds that against you, she's lacking in self-confidence. And even though you have been friends, there are a lot of complications that make a healthy dating relationship unlikely at this time. (From what I am reading.) I'm not saying it can't happen in the future, especially if you are not her student, but an equal. Get things in order for yourself personally, and then you will be in a better position to decide more freely whether being with her is fun and fulfilling.
Good advice, MrTesto. I especially like this part, wish I had thought of it:
Quote from: MrTesto on April 14, 2012, 07:13:05 PM
About the music lessons etc: if she owes you money, and you know how much, you can just let her know that your next payment is coming out of the "change." That's treating you both like adults.
Quote from: MrTesto on April 14, 2012, 07:13:05 PM
About the music lessons etc: if she owes you money, and you know how much, you can just let her know that your next payment is coming out of the "change." That's treating you both like adults.
I'm going to go with the assumption this girl isn't running a legitimate business, however, she is rendering some type of service. He can't just withhold future payments for lessons in order to satisfy a debt that he believes he is owed. (Real friends help friends out though and don't use them as a source of income.) If he withheld payment, he's just as much in the wrong as she is. Also, given the fact he knows how much the session costs exactly and that she has kept his change in the past, he still allowed it to happen again. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
Some states see a verbal demand the same as written, but all prefer written. If the OP wants the money/change he did not receive he should make a detailed list of the dates she withheld change and the amounts that were withheld and ask her for it. If she says no, he can write her a follow-up demand letter and mail it to her stating that if she doesn't pay he'll file in small claims for the amount + filing fees. That's about all any person really can do. If she won't pay and the OP doesn't want to file he should consider it a loss and move on. And in all honesty, the letter isn't a bad idea and could work, but if the amount of money/change being sought is less than the court filing costs, it's not worth the time. (Also, friends really don't sue each other.)
Quote from: Epi on April 14, 2012, 08:04:27 PM
I'm going to go with the assumption this girl isn't running a legitimate business, however, she is rendering some type of service. He can't just withhold future payments for lessons in order to satisfy a debt that he believes he is owed. (Real friends help friends out though and don't use them as a source of income.) If he withheld payment, he's just as much in the wrong as she is.
I'm not so sure that's right. Just as an example, when I accidentally pay more money at therapy or a doctor's office than what they actually need, I get a credit on my account. So next time, I don't owe them all of what I'd normally pay. So if I have a balance of $50, and I'm supposed to pay $70, I only owe them $20. Hope that makes sense.
Quote from: Epi on April 14, 2012, 08:04:27 PM
...He can't just withhold future payments for lessons in order to satisfy a debt that he believes he is owed. ...
Interesting points, and you certainly have more of the legal facts than me. I was imagining more of an up-front version, rather than getting to the point where money changes hands after the "service" has been used (end of the lesson). It can be done in an email, in advance. 'In going through my finances, I realized that I overpaid you X amount (dates)...to bring things back to a balance, it would be fine to just credit that amount to my lesson this week.' Very matter of fact. If she has a fit about the whole thing, well, that will be useful data about how professional she is. And then in the future, maybe pay her by check.
I dunno - the whole thing has a lot of potential for awkwardness, but treating it as just a matter of catching up accounts might be a good solution.
Quote from: Adio on April 14, 2012, 08:51:56 PM
I'm not so sure that's right. Just as an example, when I accidentally pay more money at therapy or a doctor's office than what they actually need, I get a credit on my account. So next time, I don't owe them all of what I'd normally pay. So if I have a balance of $50, and I'm supposed to pay $70, I only owe them $20. Hope that makes sense.
A fully insured, certified and legally operating clinic/doctors office is not the same as an individual offering music lessons.
The OP could live in a state where a verbal agreement is the same as written and he could not. But if he has no records, receipts and hasn't asked the person to either give them the change or come to agreement that they will accept a lesser amount for a session than previously agreed upon in order to satisfy this "debt" then that's it. You can't withhold payment for services rendered and expect that to be okay.
If I accidentally overpaid my landscaper not once, but twice I would immediately bring that to their attention. If my landscaper was dismissive of it or outright denied it, I would produce check stubs and a copy of the contract agreement. But if I had neither receipts or a contract, even if my landscaper swindled me, it would be my own naivety that resulted in that and there's nothing you can do except don't let it happen again.
Quote from: MrTesto on April 14, 2012, 09:19:49 PM
Interesting points, and you certainly have more of the legal facts than me. I was imagining more of an up-front version, rather than getting to the point where money changes hands after the "service" has been used (end of the lesson). It can be done in an email, in advance. 'In going through my finances, I realized that I overpaid you X amount (dates)...to bring things back to a balance, it would be fine to just credit that amount to my lesson this week.' Very matter of fact. If she has a fit about the whole thing, well, that will be useful data about how professional she is. And then in the future, maybe pay her by check.
I dunno - the whole thing has a lot of potential for awkwardness, but treating it as just a matter of catching up accounts might be a good solution.
Just asking her casually may get a better response than letter writing but the fact he hasn't asked her puts him in this gray area. "So, you're just bringing this up now?" kind of thing.
Dear Ms. Music Lady,
On these specific dates I overpaid you for these music lessons because you could not provide me with the change I was entitled to. Per our verbal agreement, you have agreed to provide me with music lessons at a discounted student rate. However, while it was not specifically stated you would credit me towards future lessons if you were unable to make change I was under the impression; as any reasonable person would be, that you would bring the change to the next lesson or deduct the amount from the overall total of the next music lesson.
I would appreciate if you would rectify this situation by either providing me with x amount of music lessons free of charge or by paying the $x.xx amount in full by April xx, 2012. If I don't receive payment by that date I will promptly file this matter in small claims court.
Sincerely,
Your Pal
@Epi: I see what you're saying. That makes sense. I guess we don't know enough about his individual situation to really give much solid advice on that front. I still think he needs to figure out exactly what he wants or needs here. A romantic relationship with this girl is clearly not happening, and I think that needs to be dealt with before continuing as friends. By dealt with I mean realize that it's just not going to happen.
@Epi- re "gray area" - Totally. I was just trying to imagine a way to address this side of things in light of the overshadowing (and overwhelming) emotional aspects. If the OP is in distress being in her presence, and his suicidality is being triggered, even a mild mention of the owed money could feel like a massive confrontation.
I listed the money as the second thing, because, really, we have a guy here who is having a really hard time in a more serious way. OP, I hope things are going better for you today.
Quote from: Adio on April 14, 2012, 10:01:23 PM
@Epi: I see what you're saying. That makes sense. I guess we don't know enough about his individual situation to really give much solid advice on that front. I still think he needs to figure out exactly what he wants or needs here. A romantic relationship with this girl is clearly not happening, and I think that needs to be dealt with before continuing as friends. By dealt with I mean realize that it's just not going to happen.
In a legal mindset the only relevant relationship is the business one they have. A contract is a good thing for both parties, or with another music instructor if he chooses to go elsewhere. Friends scratch friends backs, that's one of the nice things about having good friends but when it comes down to a business relationship involving money even if it's your friend, they're not acting in that capacity when rendering services or goods.
Hypothetically, when he overpaid her and if she said "oh, I don't have exact change" his possible response of "that's okay" could imply that's okay until our next session or that's okay indefinitely, but if not specified, assume the latter. Or she could have assumed it was a tip if nothing was said.
Quote from: MrTesto on April 14, 2012, 10:04:47 PM
@Epi- re "gray area" - Totally. I was just trying to imagine a way to address this side of things in light of the overshadowing (and overwhelming) emotional aspects. If the OP is in distress being in her presence, and his suicidality is being triggered, even a mild mention of the owed money could feel like a massive confrontation.
I listed the money as the second thing, because, really, we have a guy here who is having a really hard time in a more serious way. OP, I hope things are going better for you today.
Then the OP really should ask himself how much do I really care about the money? Is the money worth the stress? Sometimes taking your business elsewhere says more than words ever could.
Quote from: Epi on April 14, 2012, 10:24:29 PM
Hypothetically, when he overpaid her and if she said "oh, I don't have exact change" his possible response of "that's okay" could imply that's okay until our next session or that's okay indefinitely, but if not specified, assume the latter. Or she could have assumed it was a tip if nothing was said.
this is exactly what she said to me. the "oh i don't have change". but actually i didn't want this to turn into a legal argument guys, and actually, i don't care so much about the money, more the fact that she was using me for it, that kind of hurt. and by script i meant more what to say to her about the relationship and not the change she owes me (which i actually don't remember the exact amount, only that it was $2 or $3, but she's done that more than once so really it was like $8 or something). yes, i'd very much like to keep her as a friend, however i'm aware that you can't "force" people to be your friend.
The tap dancing dream was only a dream i could pursue if i really do decide to transition. And often, i wonder what our relationship would be if we weren't student teacher. Now I'm starting to think "did i mess up? did i say or do something that caused her to feel this way about me?" which is never the case for me, but it trips me up by thinking like that.
Quote from: Cody Jensen on April 14, 2012, 11:03:27 PM
this is exactly what she said to me. the "oh i don't have change". but actually i didn't want this to turn into a legal argument guys, and actually, i don't care so much about the money, more the fact that she was using me for it, that kind of hurt. and by script i meant more what to say to her about the relationship and not the change she owes me (which i actually don't remember the exact amount, only that it was $2 or $3, but she's done that more than once so really it was like $8 or something). yes, i'd very much like to keep her as a friend, however i'm aware that you can't "force" people to be your friend.
It's really not a matter of forcing people to be your friend, it's a matter of if they're deserving of your friendship. Don't undervalue or sell yourself short.
Knowing who to place your trust in or when to walk away from a toxic relationship is not something we're born with, it's learned. When you were young your parents would keep an eye on you when you played out in the yard, they would make sure you didn't fall and get hurt but they'd also make sure that a stranger didn't approach you. As we get older we take on that role as not only our own protector but a protector of our children too. You're not doing anything wrong, you've just found an individual who has no problem taking advantage of others kindness or generosity. There's people like that everywhere, but as I said, we're not born with the ability to identify people like this, we learn how to see through their facade.
Quote from: Cody Jensen on April 14, 2012, 11:06:09 PM
The tap dancing dream was only a dream i could pursue if i really do decide to transition. And often, i wonder what our relationship would be if we weren't student teacher. Now I'm starting to think "did i mess up? did i say or do something that caused her to feel this way about me?" which is never the case for me, but it trips me up by thinking like that.
You're human, but instead of asking "did I mess up?" better yet ask yourself "what do I want for myself in life free of her or anyone else?
Don't put all your eggs in one basket. In fact, if I were you I'd go get my eggs back and sit on them for awhile until someone who appreciates them comes along.
Quote from: Epi on April 14, 2012, 11:32:37 PM
Don't put all your eggs in one basket. In fact, if I were you I'd go get my eggs back and sit on them for awhile until someone who appreciates them comes along.
Not 100% sure if i understand this metaphor lol
Gaaaah it's been killing me for the past month. I hate feeling alone :( :(
Quote from: Cody Jensen on April 14, 2012, 11:52:31 PM
Not 100% sure if i understand this metaphor lol
Gaaaah it's been killing me for the past month. I hate feeling alone :( :(
What I think he means is don't put all your focus into her because if shes not interested in treating you like a friend then someone else will be.
I know the alone feeling Cody. I'm going through it too as well. Hang in there.
That relationship sounds toxic to me. If she doesn't talk to you except at lessons, that sounds like your relationship is now a business one and not one of friendship. If she is taking advantage of you financially, that's unethical of her, and I would tell her to give me the money she owed me and cut off contact after. There is no reason to stay in this relationship and I don't know why you want to stay "friends" with her, unless there is some underlying reason that you haven't mentioned here.
If you insist on staying in this relationship, take exact change to the lessons.
@Malachite ah now i got it. ya i know for sure now that I'm sick of being alone.
@Andy idk why I'm sticking around either. maybe somewhere in my thick head I'm subconsciously thinking somehow i can win her heart or we can at least actually be friends, and that if she leaves then ill truly be completely alone, and i can't stand being alone any longer... being alone seems to be doing bad things to my head
I just remembered this is the girl you had a crush on. The girl you work closely with but can't have because she doesn't reciprocate your positive regard. I'd politely back out and stay away from her if I were you.
Quote from: Cody Jensen on April 15, 2012, 12:35:04 AM
@Malachite ah now i got it. ya i know for sure now that I'm sick of being alone.
@Andy idk why I'm sticking around either. maybe somewhere in my thick head I'm subconsciously thinking somehow i can win her heart or we can at least actually be friends, and that if she leaves then ill truly be completely alone, and i can't stand being alone any longer... being alone seems to be doing bad things to my head
Cody I know it seems like being alone is the worse thing but trust me when I say this you would rather be alone than with people who use you. Let me put it into perspective:
In middle school I didn't have many friends and I was extremely alone even more so back then. I was SO alone that I intentially called the automatic weatherman almost everyday AND I would INTENTIALLY dial wrong phone numbers at night just so I could talk to someone even if the convo was only "sorry wrong phone number." Needless to say I cherished ANY friend that I had in school. One girl in particular kind of left me to the side in order to be with the more popular people but I still hung on. Then out of no where she would get angry and wouldn't speak to me for no reason no matter how hard I tried to ask her what was wrong (another friend of mine did this to me). To top it off this friend knew I had a crush on her and another girl and they both went on a Church trip with me and we stayed in the same room and they wind up having sex in the same room WHILE I WAS IN THERE and come to find out later they were cousins. I should have dropped her a long time ago but no I didn't want to go back to calling random people. I still keep in contact with her like once or twice every year but it has gone from "friendship" to "associate".
In your case Cody not only is this girl using you but she's taking your money at the same time. Is it natural to have subconscious feelings? Heck yeah but you can't let them get to you. There are people out there who are willing to be your friend for FREE. You and I are both young and there are tons of people out there that is just waiting to be met. However if you keep letting this girl suck you dry where you can't eventually focus or get your mind straight then there's a good chance you may shut down emotionally and push the true friends away from you. I've done that before. That's not to say it will happen but just realize that there are better people out there for you Cody.
@Felix but see, I'm thinking if I back out I won't be able to handle the emotional hurt of having no one. I am close to tears now because it's been going around and around in my head "why can't they actually be my real friend, just this once?" because everyone's either used me or left me, and not even any single one of my cousins have any interest in being friends with me, which is why i hate family, because i feel like there's no point in having mine, no one talks to each other.
PS Am not looking for pity btw
@Malachite, that sounds really rough, sorry you had to go through that man. Actually I quickly feel myself heading that way too. People say "oh, well that's easy, you meet friends by doing things and joining clubs" but I find it so hard to even kick my own butt out of the house and get *motivated* i feel as though i'll never get anywhere, let alone meet anyone