I suppose this might not be a good thing to talk about, but I felt like addressing it, somehow. I've seen countless pictures of naked MTF girls, non-op, on websites, in very graphic situations. You know what I'm talking about. I've got nothing against that. What I find slightly contradictory is that this is the very same thing they might, later in life, complain about. Like, most people see transsexuals as nothing but sex craving individuals, and make us an object to 'dream' with very much like the women that make the covers of so and so magazine. While GGs might have it easier, if only as there are a whole lot of them in this world, we just get treated much poorly and not just because the lack of visibility, but also because, amongst many things, stuff like porn. I've seen this mentioned in other posts here but didn't really see a thread about it specifically.
It's not like I find it morally wrong, but it's one of the things that makes me think about how many young transsexuals just take for granted what many have fought, and even died for. How many Renee Richards (example) do we need to overcome society's vision of transsexuals?
E.
PS: Also, mods please, feel free to move this to another place if it's required.
I just hate to think that we can be someone else's "fetish" it really creeps me out
but I know what you are talking about, its like a lot of the young mtf girls are really pushing the limit on bad taste and exploiting themselves...some even do it to make a tidy living
Unfortunately, some girls just have no other possible option than prostitution because of economic problems. I don't condemn that. They REALLY need to have an income. What I find most appalling is that they just do it to feel prettier, or because of self esteem issues, or ego, etc. Meanwhile, we go out every day afraid of being called a '->-bleeped-<-' in front of everyone in the street, or looked at in an obscene way because most of what people (regular Janes and Johns) know of '->-bleeped-<-s' is THAT. They can't see past that and it creates a vicious circle that it's impossible to get out of.
You are so right about that.
Thankfully, at least for my kids, they knew my trans friends as they were growing up, giving them a positive model to look up to and understand. That has made them better people as they grow older and I am proud of them for that.
A lot of people young and old mock what they dont understand, dont know if that is an inherent American trait or not really
Lucky, lucky kids, Michelle. So glad about that.
Quote from: Elena G on June 22, 2012, 03:21:14 PM
Unfortunately, some girls just have no other possible option than prostitution because of economic problems. I don't condemn that. They REALLY need to have an income. What I find most appalling is that they just do it to feel prettier, or because of self esteem issues, or ego, etc. Meanwhile, we go out every day afraid of being called a '->-bleeped-<-' in front of everyone in the street, or looked at in an obscene way because most of what people (regular Janes and Johns) know of '->-bleeped-<-s' is THAT. They can't see past that and it creates a vicious circle that it's impossible to get out of.
This post needs repeating.
Pornography is a VERY seedy business, all of the sex trades are. You (original poster not the poster I quoted) think that the majority of women, trans or not, who are in pornography and other sex trades really enjoy being there? I'm sure there's a few, but I highly doubt it's the majority.
Choice is a very funny thing. Something can look very much like a choice from a distance until you take a look close up and see just how hopeless a choice it is.
Don't judge the women for what they do, blame the pornography industry, blame the men who consume the bulk of the pornography industry. They are the ones to blame here.
Quote from: Michelle G on June 22, 2012, 03:49:02 PM
A lot of people young and old mock what they dont understand, dont know if that is an inherent American trait or not really
Of course it's not, it's a human trait.
I find the pornography industry and the sex trade disgusting, but I won't for a second blame the women who participate in it. There's far too many factors involved like poverty, drug abuse, histories of sexual violence, etc, to judge that group.
Blame the people who create the market. Blame the consumers of pornography (this only counts for pornography depicting actual persons, written pornography I don't count in the same way).
I've known far too many former and current prostitutes to be so naive as to call it a true choice.
Disclaimer: Don't take it from my post that I hate men, because I know that might be how it may come across. Most of my relationships have been with men and I've known some great men in my life, but the facts are what they are, and those facts are that the sex trade is 99% for the consumption of men, and this includes the male prostitutes also, much like men make up the vast majority of rapists, of males and females alike.
Also something else I'll say, MTF's are women, we shouldn't be making a distinction.
I've known far too many who have gone this route. It only ended in frustration or death for them. Have you ever wondered why there is so much male exposure in heterosexual porn? I think that there is something about men that like "it"... if you know what I mean. I wouldn't be surprised if many hetero's get their rocks of TG porn. It's a pet peeve of mine too, but there isn't much I can do except steer potential victims away through my writing.
Cindi
I recall it being brought up before too that some do it as a needs to survive. They've had problems with keeping down a steady job, primarily because they're transwomen. They found it easier to just sell themselves.
I don't really agree with that route, but I can understand it. Luckily though, I feel that isn't such a serious issue as of much any more. It seems more companies are beginning to update their EO policies to benefit trans.
Quote from: Elena G on June 22, 2012, 03:21:14 PM
Unfortunately, some girls just have no other possible option than prostitution because of economic problems. I don't condemn that. They REALLY need to have an income. What I find most appalling is that they just do it to feel prettier, or because of self esteem issues, or ego, etc. Meanwhile, we go out every day afraid of being called a '->-bleeped-<-' in front of everyone in the street, or looked at in an obscene way because most of what people (regular Janes and Johns) know of '->-bleeped-<-s' is THAT. They can't see past that and it creates a vicious circle that it's impossible to get out of.
The very unfortunate fact of life for many young TG women. For various reasons your coming out eventually leads to a deal with the devil. That deal eventually leads to a lot of internal defense mechanisms to rationalize or justify what you are doing. I doubt any thought of how my individual action or decision is going to change how crappy the rest of the world is treating me and other TGs never enters their minds. I sure don't think way about 99.99% of the decisions I make every day, including the ones if I think about it will or can affect many others.
My wife had the offer a few times early on in NYC. The money sure beats waiting on tables and is very tempting. Fortunately she got quickly talked out of it each time by someone who knew the seedy side of it. If anything they said, she should become a madam they said! lol She also never got into a desperate situation. She did wait to make her transition and move to the city until after she had worked and saved up a good portion of her surgery money. She always had a piggy bank to raid when things got bad.
The very unfortunate fact for the rest of us, the exploitation does put us in a bad light. Certainly worse off then most women. Yet cis women are also victims of the sex industry as well as mens perception of them. Just think of all the men out there that think most women are sex crazed sluts that must be kept under control for "religious" reasons. And then there are the others. Religion is a great way to justify doing a lot of things in society. After all, you don't want to get the Big Guy angry. Bad things happen then. Since most guys know they will do something bad if the opportunity presents itself, the only way to stop themselves is to keep women suppressed.
Unless we're talking about sex trafficking, it's a women's own decision to be part of these industries. All that is needed to have women flock to them like dogs is their existence, the only way we can get rid of it is to ban this type of exploitation. We can blame these women for being stupid enough to make the decisions in the first place, just look at webcam modelling, most are from first world countries and the majority of them seem enjoy it. The real problem is social conditioning, bad parenting, and the general acceptance of promiscious behaviour combined with the fact that women are taught, thought social circles and experience, that they can exploit their beauty whenever they feel like it whether it be through finding a rich partner, fashion modelling or prostitution. A lot of them also value their beauty over other traits, and want it to be seen by others, hence the weird sexual poses they do on facebook etc... it's not just about porn, women are sexualized by the media but they also sexualize themselves (sometimes for an ego boost). Same story applies to MTFs except for them it's a newly aquired ability, thus the extremity may be higher.
Also, you can't blame male consumers because it's natural for them to be attracted to this type of stuff, and it IS thrown in our faces in one form or another - becomes an addiction.
Syncronicity us a wonderful thing. My dearly beloved and me were discussing me coming out to people and how we are on the whole not bothered who knows except one person. The reason being that this person objectifies FTM transexuals as a fetish object and we both find this extremely distasteful.
As a kicker the person concerned is female so I'm not sure there's a straight split by gender.
Love,
Rosie.
Stuart ~ Look what I can do! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvbFMGmImg#)
Quote from: 8888 on June 23, 2012, 12:59:58 PM
Unless we're talking about sex trafficking, it's a women's own decision to be part of these industries. All that is needed to have women flock to them like dogs is their existence, the only way we can get rid of it is to ban this type of exploitation. We can blame these women for being stupid enough to make the decisions in the first place, just look at webcam modelling, most are from first world countries and the majority of them seem enjoy it. The real problem is social conditioning, bad parenting, and the general acceptance of promiscious behaviour combined with the fact that women are taught, thought social circles and experience, that they can exploit their beauty whenever they feel like it whether it be through finding a rich partner, fashion modelling or prostitution. A lot of them also value their beauty over other traits, and want it to be seen by others, hence the weird sexual poses they do on facebook etc... it's not just about porn, women are sexualized by the media but they also sexualize themselves (sometimes for an ego boost). Same story applies to MTFs except for them it's a newly aquired ability, thus the extremity may be higher.
Also, you can't blame male consumers because it's natural for them to be attracted to this type of stuff, and it IS thrown in our faces in one form or another - becomes an addiction.
Wow, you really have the whole small minded thing going on for you...
Personally, I find your views abhorrent and disgusting and unbelievably small minded.
I absolutely can blame male consumers because there's no reason they can't fulfill their sexual desires without exploiting others. Your claim is like saying we can't blame rapists because they can't help themselves, it's utterly disgusting.
"Seem to enjoy it", they have to act like they enjoy it because that's what the consumers want.
And finally, banning it is something I would be very very weary about. Prohibition is the go-to simple answer for complex sociological problems, and it almost always just makes the problem worse. Child pornography is illegal and now there are whole underground networks of men abusing their children for others. I suspect better regulation combined with MUCH greater social support would be a much better approach to the problem.
But regardless, you should be glad you've never been desperate enough to understand why people end up doing the things they do.
Your lack of compassion and your naivety though is exactly a part of the problem.
It's scary... And it's really hard for me to understand and accept it as part of the human condition.
It's it the girl's fault for turning to sexual practices for money? I kind of want to say it is, as much as it is stealing to make a living. It's cold to say that given how many women (regardless of past) are killed becasue of it... but I can't help but feel that way. However it is not their fault for making such a seedy and horrible environment, or even making the demand. It's not their fault that the route exist. Much like it's not really a drug addict's fault that a drug pusher pushes drugs.
It does come down to objectification of all women, and it's simply a practice that is deeply rooted in our past where women had no real rights. Where they were legally objects.
Is it natural for men to allow and partake in this practice? I don't think it is... I think that implies men are dumb animals incapable of functioning at a level where they realize something is morally wrong. And honestly, most men are capable of seeing something is morally wrong with paying women for sexual gratification, and a large portion of men never involve themselves with the porn business in large extent (or much at all). At least I want to believe that is the case. Assume the best of life even when the worst of problems exist.
Maybe one day we just won't need it... No woman would need to sell themselves, no man would need to pay for it... and the world would probably be better off. x.x probably never happen I guess.
The reality is daunting and makes sense. At the same time the world has changed. Someone can really make a fortune if they "go viral" online. So it's not just in this community. Lots of people are making fools out of themselves online. Look at Courtney Stodden. So sad.
Quote from: SourCandy on June 23, 2012, 09:16:11 PM
It's scary... And it's really hard for me to understand and accept it as part of the human condition.
It's it the girl's fault for turning to sexual practices for money? I kind of want to say it is, as much as it is stealing to make a living. It's cold to say that given how many women (regardless of past) are killed becasue of it... but I can't help but feel that way. However it is not their fault for making such a seedy and horrible environment, or even making the demand. It's not their fault that the route exist. Much like it's not really a drug addict's fault that a drug pusher pushes drugs.
It does come down to objectification of all women, and it's simply a practice that is deeply rooted in our past where women had no real rights. Where they were legally objects.
Is it natural for men to allow and partake in this practice? I don't think it is... I think that implies men are dumb animals incapable of functioning at a level where they realize something is morally wrong. And honestly, most men are capable of seeing something is morally wrong with paying women for sexual gratification, and a large portion of men never involve themselves with the porn business in large extent (or much at all). At least I want to believe that is the case. Assume the best of life even when the worst of problems exist.
Maybe one day we just won't need it... No woman would need to sell themselves, no man would need to pay for it... and the world would probably be better off. x.x probably never happen I guess.
Part of the problem is these are extremely complex problems. People will do what they feel they have to to survive. Sell themselves, steal from others, when you get desperate enough, suddenly morality becomes a luxury you can no longer afford.
I don't blame the people in desperate need, whatever got them to that point to begin with (and usually but not always it's hard to assign direct fault to them). People tend to be close minded and apply their life to others not seeing how varied and complex the world is that results in the circumstances people wind up in. What we need is more compassion and less judgement. Lets forget for a minute the horrible things people do for survival and lets just focus on what we can do to stop it. To improve the quality of life for everyone.
The problem there of course is that in order to support people in desperate need, we need social support. If it's by charities they have little funding and if it's by government social systems it's by tax's that get them kicked out of office. In either case it's the same reason, the people with the wealth to contribute to support people in need don't want to loose some of their quality of life, especially when it's so easy to come up with an us vs them, black and white, criminals and good guys view of the world.
It's all too easy for the wealthy few, the privileged, to want to believe that they have the things they do because they deserve them, because they earned it, rather than simply being lucky. This way they can see the world as fair and that they deserve their wealth and luxury. And as a consequence the unfortunate deserve it also.
I don't believe in socialism, but I don't believe in capitalism either. We need rational evidence based approaches to problems. And for people to just show some human compassion and desire for empathy.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 09:31:18 PM
Part of the problem is these are extremely complex problems. People will do what they feel they have to to survive. Sell themselves, steal from others, when you get desperate enough, suddenly morality becomes a luxury you can no longer afford.
I don't blame the people in desperate need, whatever got them to that point to begin with (and usually but not always it's hard to assign direct fault to them). People tend to be close minded and apply their life to others not seeing how varied and complex the world is that results in the circumstances people wind up in. What we need is more compassion and less judgement. Lets forget for a minute the horrible things people do for survival and lets just focus on what we can do to stop it. To improve the quality of life for everyone.
The problem there of course is that in order to support people in desperate need, we need social support. If it's by charities they have little funding and if it's by government social systems it's by tax's that get them kicked out of office. In either case it's the same reason, the people with the wealth to contribute to support people in need don't want to loose some of their quality of life, especially when it's so easy to come up with an us vs them, black and white, criminals and good guys view of the world.
It's all too easy for the wealthy few, the privileged, to want to believe that they have the things they do because they deserve them, because they earned it, rather than simply being lucky. This way they can see the world as fair and that they deserve their wealth and luxury. And as a consequence the unfortunate deserve it also.
I don't believe in socialism, but I don't believe in capitalism either. We need rational evidence based approaches to problems. And for people to just show some human compassion and desire for empathy.
I agree, and I know... Like I get that at some point people have to do what they have to do, but it's just my nativity that says this could all just end if everyone decided to become better people, if all the money that went to the porn industry was used to build and maintain shelters and help people, this problem wouldn't exist. But at the core I'm expecting everyone to give of themselves. And really, if problems could be solved that way, we'd live in a perfect utopia of fairies and rainbow dash. XDDD
And yeah, I don't think anyone who chooses to do something out of necessity is a bad person, becasue I know if I was in their shoes, I would probably do the same. But at the same time I look at the world black and white sometimes, Even if it's what they have to do, it's still not right. And I want to place some blame on them for that, becasue it's still wrong even if right and wrong doesn't really apply to them at the time. But I will admit it's not my place to pass judgement, and honestly I don't know. I'm pretty sheltered and naive.
But yeah I agree with everything you said, I think the solution isn't found in placing blame.
Quote from: SourCandy on June 23, 2012, 10:11:10 PM
I agree, and I know... Like I get that at some point people have to do what they have to do, but it's just my nativity that says this could all just end if everyone decided to become better people, if all the money that went to the porn industry was used to build and maintain shelters and help people, this problem wouldn't exist. But at the core I'm expecting everyone to give of themselves. And really, if problems could be solved that way, we'd live in a perfect utopia of fairies and rainbow dash. XDDD
And yeah, I don't think anyone who chooses to do something out of necessity is a bad person, becasue I know if I was in their shoes, I would probably do the same. But at the same time I look at the world black and white sometimes, Even if it's what they have to do, it's still not right. And I want to place some blame on them for that, becasue it's still wrong even if right and wrong doesn't really apply to them at the time. But I will admit it's not my place to pass judgement, and honestly I don't know. I'm pretty sheltered and naive.
But yeah I agree with everything you said, I think the solution isn't found in placing blame.
I admire the honesty in your post.
It pretty much boils down to being that sometimes the wrong thing to do is the only thing you see that you can do.
I only consider something truly wrong when it both does harm to others and can realistically be avoided.
If you're desperate for money, and you need it because you NEED the drugs you're on, the drugs you started long ago but just can't stop, and if you haven't been there you probably can't understand the depths of human desperation in addiction, then prostituting yourself or stealing suddenly become the only 'realistic' options in your mind apart from suicide.
And it doesn't always have to be drugs, I say drugs (including alcohol) because it's one of the most common causes of this kind of sheer desperation, but it's not the only one. Maybe you have an addiction to something else that needs money (gambling addiction is a very real thing for example), maybe you don't have an addiction at all but you feel you NEED the money NOW for some other reason.
Does that make it right? Of course not, but things are the way they are. The most constructive line of discussion is of course what to do about it.
What's not constructive is simple right and wrong, black and white, ban this, ban that lines of thinking.
It's easy if you've either never been there and/or never been in close contact with people who have, to not see it close up, to not see just how hopeless some peoples situations can seem and overwhelming.
Common simplistic arguments include:
Ban drugs/war on drugs: Doesn't work, has just made the problem a whole lot worse, provides a black market for criminal profiteering, and people still get drugs anyway.
They should just get a job: How? The war on drugs has made criminals out of addicts, and people don't want criminals working for them, even without a record, they don't want an addict working for them regardless.
They shouldn't have gotten in that situation in the first place: Easy to say, but life isn't that simple. Not everyone reacts the same way to the same environmental influences, we already know that genetics play a huge role in addictive behavour. Regardless, unless you've never made a mistake, don't judge. A lot of people first start their addictions in their early to mid teens. Can you say you're the same person now you were then?
So to get back to the topic at hand, I talk about addiction because I'm talking about desperation, and I'm talking about desperation because that's why most criminals end up criminals, most sex workers end up sex workers.
Is this true 100% across the board? No, some people are criminals because they have serious mental disorders that cause them to not think or feel like the rest of us and have no regard for anyone by themselves, there's some people in sex work who do it because they feel they want to be there (even that is still a complex issue, regarding why they want to be there, studies have consistently shown women in sex work have a significantly higher rate of experience of childhood sexual abuse than the general population).
But these are generalizations of the majority and explanations for why these phenomena continue.
And specifically why blaming the desperate is not constructive and only serves to hurt people.
We all tend to agree that something needs to be done, but unfortunately most people don't want to really take the effort to see the morally gray in our world, and just end up making things worse.
It's just a shame that there are so few public images of us that aren't sexualized or sensationalized.
Quote from: Kelly J. P. on June 24, 2012, 03:10:34 AM
It's just a shame that there are so few public images of us that aren't sexualized or sensationalized.
I don't see it as particularly different to the ongoing exploitation of women generally.
Don't get me wrong, women's rights and gender equality have made significant advances in an extremely short period of time, and that's something to be proud of.
But exploitation targeted at women is still very real and ongoing. It exists in the over-sexualisation of our society generally. The whole advertising prevalence of "if you buy our product hot women will have sex with you".
These fortunately much more ingrained and subtle forms of sexism and exploitation compared to that of virtually all of the rest of human history, which is a good thing, but unfortunately makes solutions to it much much harder.
It's a sad, sad situation.
It's why I support great increases to welfare spending, to prevent an underclass (usually comprising of disadvantaged people of all stripes) having to do this for a living.
It's why even though socially I am a bit old-fashioned (for my generation) economically I am well to the left.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 08:35:50 PM
Wow, you really have the whole small minded thing going on for you...
Calling someone "small minded" is almost a preface to a small minded response.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 08:35:50 PM
I absolutely can blame male consumers because there's no reason they can't fulfill their sexual desires without exploiting others. Your claim is like saying we can't blame rapists because they can't help themselves, it's utterly disgusting.
Consumers of porn are not exploiting women, you're confusing them with producers who are not in the same legue. The average man's brain is pumped with images of sexualised women via the mainstream media, if it's there they will take it. You can't liken them to rapists as they are not directly harming anyone and are doing it in their own privacy. It's generally morally acceptible for men to look at porn in the same way as it's becoming morally acceptable for women to be in it. Social stigmas and customary laws are sometimes stronger than those enforced, with time these are slowly being lifted as the sex and advertisement industries are realising the potential income they could be making. This is having a profound effect on thought processes of not just men but women as we are seeing with the advent to conditions such as annorexia, body dismorphia and general attitudes and behavior towards the opposite sex.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 08:35:50 PM
"Seem to enjoy it", they have to act like they enjoy it because that's what the consumers want.
You honestly haven't observed young women much have you? A good number of them crave male attention and want to make some sort of visual impression. We are talking about first world countries here, and these are the type of women that would more likely turn to webcam modelling. It's not always solely about money, a good factor to consider would be self-esteem. To not be able to achknowledge various different determinants which don't fulfil your prearranged solution is a good example of small-mindedness.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 23, 2012, 08:35:50 PM
And finally, banning it is something I would be very very weary about. Prohibition is the go-to simple answer for complex sociological problems, and it almost always just makes the problem worse. Child pornography is illegal and now there are whole underground networks of men abusing their children for others. I suspect better regulation combined with MUCH greater social support would be a much better approach to the problem.
You can't eliminate anything 100%, but only a minority will turn to the black market. Are you proposing we legalise and "regulate" child porn too? You don't think there will be a boom in its consumption if it were legalised? The plan is to prevent women from being exploited by the sex industry, and the best solution is to ban porn production/distribution. If money is the only force driving women to porn then the only type of regulation that might work would be enforced maximum wages, which isn't going to happen in a country which practically promotes greed.
a ban on pornography would be ridiculious ,archaic and woukd be sending us back to a state of 1950s conservatism . not everyone thats in pornography is being exploited or doing it out of desperation some people are natural exhibitionists and enjoy it , people are explioted in every industry not just the sex industry
The real solution to the whole situation is one that is extremely difficult and completely unpopular.
The sad truth is that we (every single, amazing, wonderful, one of us) is addicted to the one thing that enable all of this; money.
In becoming the apex of the food chain, we have no natural predators. Survival is no longer an immediate and obvious threat to our reproduction and continuation as a species. The inherent response to this is to create an artificial survival system that continues to drive our development further. This came in the form of trade and money; as I like to call them, "survival tickets." The reality is, we can't envision a world in which we didn't have those survival tickets. If we didn't have them, where would we get our food? Or our cars? No one would be motivated to keep working because they didn't need to, there was no survival tickets to garner. The concept of working because you had a responsibility to a community doesn't even occur. The idea that your role in the chain is significant merely because you do it is unknown to us. In many ways, through our addiction to money those survival tickets are an extension of our very self-worth and self-esteem. It has replaced our commitment to each other as the basis for our behavior, humanity is no longer a herd society, it has become a pack mentality.
I know the immediate response is to say that people would do it even if money weren't around, but the truth of it is that the main force behind the widespread bulk of it is its inherent profitability. Without that, it would be no more commonplace than professional sand castles, which, while beautiful, has very low profitability. The people that produce them do it because they love to build them, not because of a desire to be rich. The opposite trend currently perpetuates pornography.
Just my two cents.
Quote from: Rising_Angel on June 28, 2012, 12:55:44 PM
The real solution to the whole situation is one that is extremely difficult and completely unpopular.
The sad truth is that we (every single, amazing, wonderful, one of us) is addicted to the one thing that enable all of this; money.
In becoming the apex of the food chain, we have no natural predators. Survival is no longer an immediate and obvious threat to our reproduction and continuation as a species. The inherent response to this is to create an artificial survival system that continues to drive our development further. This came in the form of trade and money; as I like to call them, "survival tickets." The reality is, we can't envision a world in which we didn't have those survival tickets. If we didn't have them, where would we get our food? Or our cars? No one would be motivated to keep working because they didn't need to, there was no survival tickets to garner. The concept of working because you had a responsibility to a community doesn't even occur. The idea that your role in the chain is significant merely because you do it is unknown to us. In many ways, through our addiction to money those survival tickets are an extension of our very self-worth and self-esteem. It has replaced our commitment to each other as the basis for our behavior, humanity is no longer a herd society, it has become a pack mentality.
I know the immediate response is to say that people would do it even if money weren't around, but the truth of it is that the main force behind the widespread bulk of it is its inherent profitability. Without that, it would be no more commonplace than professional sand castles, which, while beautiful, has very low profitability. The people that produce them do it because they love to build them, not because of a desire to be rich. The opposite trend currently perpetuates pornography.
Just my two cents.
Yeah, that's my main view too. The ugly thing is that something as degrading as THAT is becoming the easiest way to make money, and thus, making "sex" a very strong force in the money-making machinery. And you know what happens when the roots are poisonous...
Quote from: 8888 on June 28, 2012, 09:50:16 AM
Calling someone "small minded" is almost a preface to a small minded response.
Consumers of porn are not exploiting women, you're confusing them with producers who are not in the same legue. The average man's brain is pumped with images of sexualised women via the mainstream media, if it's there they will take it. You can't liken them to rapists as they are not directly harming anyone and are doing it in their own privacy. It's generally morally acceptible for men to look at porn in the same way as it's becoming morally acceptable for women to be in it. Social stigmas and customary laws are sometimes stronger than those enforced, with time these are slowly being lifted as the sex and advertisement industries are realising the potential income they could be making. This is having a profound effect on thought processes of not just men but women as we are seeing with the advent to conditions such as annorexia, body dismorphia and general attitudes and behavior towards the opposite sex.
You honestly haven't observed young women much have you? A good number of them crave male attention and want to make some sort of visual impression. We are talking about first world countries here, and these are the type of women that would more likely turn to webcam modelling. It's not always solely about money, a good factor to consider would be self-esteem. To not be able to achknowledge various different determinants which don't fulfil your prearranged solution is a good example of small-mindedness.
You can't eliminate anything 100%, but only a minority will turn to the black market. Are you proposing we legalise and "regulate" child porn too? You don't think there will be a boom in its consumption if it were legalised? The plan is to prevent women from being exploited by the sex industry, and the best solution is to ban porn production/distribution. If money is the only force driving women to porn then the only type of regulation that might work would be enforced maximum wages, which isn't going to happen in a country which practically promotes greed.
I've said everything I feel I need to say to you and don't have any real desire to continue discussing this with you.
The only reason I'm replying at all is to reply to this question.
QuoteAre you proposing we legalise and "regulate" child porn too? You don't think there will be a boom in its consumption if it were legalised?
Yes.... obviously not child porn involving actual children in any way, But simulated child porn... animated/cgi/written.
Far better pedophiles look at that than abuse their children in producing their own.
And no I don't think there will be a boom in its consumption, I think there will be a modest increase in the already existing pedophile community and that it may well reduce the amount of actual child porn being produced.
Fact is nobody has tried it and done studies on it so this is all conjecture, but it's worth a trial.
Abuse of children is absolutely unacceptable and horrible, but we can't afford to loose our grip on science because of it and engage in emotionally charged unthinking responses. Our duty is to protect children, and to do that we need to make every effort to do what will work, not just what our emotions make us feel good about doing. Pedophiles exist and they don't choose to be pedophiles, they do choose to abuse children but again, choice is a funny thing. We should trial legalization of measures that do not involve any actual children to try and support pedophiles so we can know who they are, and keep them from being driven underground where they can do whatever they like.
As for the rest of your post, I've already said what I have to say on it.
Quote from: Rising_Angel on June 28, 2012, 12:55:44 PM
The real solution to the whole situation is one that is extremely difficult and completely unpopular.
The sad truth is that we (every single, amazing, wonderful, one of us) is addicted to the one thing that enable all of this; money.
In becoming the apex of the food chain, we have no natural predators. Survival is no longer an immediate and obvious threat to our reproduction and continuation as a species. The inherent response to this is to create an artificial survival system that continues to drive our development further. This came in the form of trade and money; as I like to call them, "survival tickets." The reality is, we can't envision a world in which we didn't have those survival tickets. If we didn't have them, where would we get our food? Or our cars? No one would be motivated to keep working because they didn't need to, there was no survival tickets to garner. The concept of working because you had a responsibility to a community doesn't even occur. The idea that your role in the chain is significant merely because you do it is unknown to us. In many ways, through our addiction to money those survival tickets are an extension of our very self-worth and self-esteem. It has replaced our commitment to each other as the basis for our behavior, humanity is no longer a herd society, it has become a pack mentality.
I know the immediate response is to say that people would do it even if money weren't around, but the truth of it is that the main force behind the widespread bulk of it is its inherent profitability. Without that, it would be no more commonplace than professional sand castles, which, while beautiful, has very low profitability. The people that produce them do it because they love to build them, not because of a desire to be rich. The opposite trend currently perpetuates pornography.
Just my two cents.
Money is just the symptom... not the cause.
People have always exploited others for their benefit, its an ingrained part of humanity.
Fetishes and kinks can either be helpful or be a hindrance.
Exploring fetishes and kinks with a partner as a way or learning more about each other and bonding with them is helpful.
Focusing on fetishes and kinks, such that potential partners are only ever seen for how they fit into said fetishes and kinks, is a hindrance.
Like so many other things in life, fetishes and kinks are only good or bad depending on how individuals choose to utilize and pursue them. If the fetishes and kinks come to mean more to someone than interpersonal relationships... that would be an indication that something is unbalanced, to say the least. Of course, since I'm demisexual/gray-A, I might be biased about that last point, though I have a strong intuition I'm not mistaken about it.
Quote from: Elena G on June 22, 2012, 02:23:19 PM
I've seen countless pictures of naked MTF girls, non-op, on websites, in very graphic situations. You know what I'm talking about. I've got nothing against that. What I find slightly contradictory is that this is the very same thing they might, later in life, complain about. Like, most people see transsexuals as nothing but sex craving individuals, and make us an object to 'dream' with very much like the women that make the covers of so and so magazine.
A little late to this interesting thread - thanks Elena.
From my old college days as an outwardly male feminist steeped in psychological, sociological, biological, and economic theories:
It was agreed back then (probably out of date now) that
-women objectified sexually in part due to male biology (male sexual attraction driven by visual processing, desire for novelty, excitement tied to perceived risk, etc)
-most individuals are on bisexual spectrum but in denial; denial gives additional sexual potence to attraction to object that is denied/forbidden.
-male sex drive connected strongly in primates to power differentials; sex used to control, punish, promote, reward, overpower, own.
-other theorists claimed these not male traits but aspects of individuals in higher social position, regardless of gender. Objectification tends to be of lower status individuals, especially women, people of color, sexual and other minorities, and young people.
If they have a point, then images involving the display (and degradation) of the objects of the greatest phobias and discrimination would be expected to be highly effective in getting these monkeys turned on.
On the socio-economic side, populations that have no other option for survival will turn to what ever survival strategy works that they have available.
With 40% of homeless youth being LGBTQI (a very large proportion of which are trans), and with trans people of color facing unemployment and underemployment at rates 4 to 8 times higher than the general population, with trans youth subject to more traumatic experiences leading to drug addiction and low self-esteem, there are some very desperate victims of society's hate doing whatever they can to live. There but for the grace of god(dess) go I.
If I had a trans daughter or son, I would encourage them to avoid public sexual displays that could harm them later (just like I would for cis), but I would try not to conflate that self-esteem/safety issue with the meager work options of very brave young people with little or no social or family support. The answer there is to improve their options, reduce self-harm, and and remove the stigma that drives the whole steamy engine.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 24, 2012, 09:05:40 AM
Don't get me wrong, women's rights and gender equality have made significant advances in an extremely short period of time, and that's something to be proud of.
6000 years is an extremely short period of time? :angel:
( I should say 6000 years that we know about and of which we have a clear historical record of paternalism.)
If transsexual women were not sexualy exploited like natal women are there would be a hew and cry over the transphobia in the erotic/pornographic industry.
There would be transsexuals in a huff over the lack of similar objectification.
My opinion is that I have no issues fullfiling someones sexual kink, because if they have negotiated their way into my bedroom they are going to have to fulfill my kinks and perversions in kind.
Quote from: UCBerkeleyPostop on July 01, 2012, 12:18:06 PM
6000 years is an extremely short period of time? :angel:
( I should say 6000 years that we know about and of which we have a clear historical record of paternalism.)
The point being the most significant of advances, women suffrage, representation in government, equal opportunities and rights, have made more significant gains in just the last 100 years than virtually all of the rest of that time.
Quote from: Asfsd4214 on June 30, 2012, 09:17:29 PM
Money is just the symptom... not the cause.
People have always exploited others for their benefit, its an ingrained part of humanity.
You realize that by saying "for their own benefit" proves exactly why money is the cause, right? In an environment where there wasn't the inherent benefit of money, then there would be no impetus to exploit. Moreover, there would be no reason to be exploited.
Quote from: Rising_Angel on July 02, 2012, 01:11:32 PM
You realize that by saying "for their own benefit" proves exactly why money is the cause, right? In an environment where there wasn't the inherent benefit of money, then there would be no impetus to exploit. Moreover, there would be no reason to be exploited.
If it wasn't money it would be baskets of wheat, or bushels of fruits or any number of other barter goods. So long as there is an inequitable distribution of resourses there will be these issues. Only with true equality and uniform social status can we be done with the social ills of control and power. But that is pie in the sky, people are to attached to their hierarchys of power and serving a master.
Quote from: cynthialee on July 02, 2012, 08:14:45 PM
If it wasn't money it would be baskets of wheat, or bushels of fruits or any number of other barter goods. So long as there is an inequitable distribution of resourses there will be these issues. Only with true equality and uniform social status can we be done with the social ills of control and power. But that is pie in the sky, people are to attached to their hierarchys of power and serving a master.
Totally agree ... the amassing of personal resource fulfills a totally base need for survival, that was my point from the beginning. We're not a herd species - devoted to the survival of the whole, we are very much a predatory pack mentality - committed to survival of the self and immediate social group. This basic behavioral default has to be changed, and it's not an easy prospect, but it's possible. The behavior is represented most effectively as a power addiction, one that is centered around the most visible reward of that addiction which, in this case, is money.
"We're not a herd species - devoted to the survival of the whole, we are very much a predatory pack mentality - committed to survival of the self and immediate social group."
I could not disagree more with your Hobbesian viewpoint. The key to human survival lies in our ability to co-operate with one another.
"This basic behavioral default has to be changed, and it's not an easy prospect, but it's possible. The behavior is represented most effectively as a power addiction, one that is centered around the most visible reward of that addiction which, in this case, is money."
I would agree that moving away from a laissez-faire capitalistic society has to be changed and won't be easy. OTOH a society in which .1% of the population controls a great deal of the wealth is not sustainable. I do not think that greed is an inherent human trait. I believe that is learned. The sad part is that the philosophies of mental defectives such as Thomas Hobbes and Ayn Rand are given credibility.
This objectification of MTF's is mostly done by 'straight' (bi) men who secretly have T issues themselves.....(fetish) tv's, cd's and yes, pre MTF's too.
A matter of 'projection' by 'straight' men who are most certainly not to envy.
My estimation is that out of 10 men who pretend to be 'straight' in daily life at least 5 are practising bisexuals and at least 3 out of those 5 have T issues themselves.
While I certainly agree that "objectification" is a terrible thing, I think the term gets thrown around too often. Sexuality is not our enemy, and to assume that attraction to pre-op women is just a simple fetish is to place faith in a strict gender binary I don't believe exists.
The sex industry attracts vulnerable groups, no question. But rational people also choose these careers. Sex is a key aspect of the human condition, and you'll never get rid of sex based entertainment. Blaming the consumer is problematic because it paints them all with the same brush, assuming that no one turns to the sex industry for healthy reasons.
Myself, I enjoy pornography and I do use the services of prostitutes. Am I helping to prop up these industries? In my own small way, yes. But I'm a physically disabled person, not particularly attractive, and sex partners have never really been available to me. Without porn and sex workers, I would never be able to explore my sexuality. Should I just let my situation leave me asexual? Am I "objectifying" sex workers? Am I a horrible person? No, no, and I hope not.
These things are never black and white, and the solutions are never simple. You can help vulnerable groups by expanding opportunity, easing poverty, and offering real choice. But it will always be a choice, and it's not for anyone to judge but the people involved.
I think cis women have had it worse, for longer, and that mtf's mostly contribute to being used in the sex industry as to where that's not always the case with cis women.
Quote from: Adam1 on July 04, 2012, 09:42:58 PM
I think cis women have had it worse, for longer, and that mtf's mostly contribute to being used in the sex industry as to where that's not always the case with cis women.
Wat? O_O
Um... women have the freedom to sell themselves into porn or prostitution all day, every day and yet they are never objectified in the same way that M2Fs are because consumers and cis people don't see women as being men.
But consumers do tend to see M2Fs as men and porn seems to solidify it for them, that M2Fs are really just men. Men have said (often) that they are into M2Fs because M2Fs are men, like the same things as men, have the same sex-drive as men, that M2Fs aren't over-sensitive like women, are easier to get along with, relate to, know how to give the best head because they know what they would like when receiving fellatio (oral sex on a penis).
I have been objectified as a female and it felt way better than being objectified as a M2F. Being objectified as a M2F equaled being seen as a man in a girl suit.
People will sell their bodies as long as they can in whatever manner is available for them to do so.
In varying degrees a M2F is a male who transitions to female. Some of us act a lot more male than others and really it is a curse of our biology. Cissexual people believe that a man is a man because he is born male. Lots of Cissexual people believe that a M2F is a man who wants to be a woman. There is some truth to their belief (in varying degrees). I know that a lot of us who transition tend to have a much more male sex-drive. I know I was guilty of it. I also talked about sex a lot more than a woman would have, talked about sex and how it was affected by HRT. Talked about sex after SRS. To most Cissexual people, my talking about those things was proof that I am and will always be a man who wants to be a woman.
But what most Cis people don't realize and will never understand is that I never wanted to be a female. Somehow I always just was and the only way I could be normal and enjoy life was to transition to female. My body was at odds with my being and that created a life that was at odds with my essence. And if I could have just been normal I most certainly would have just been normal I would have taken medication or had surgery to be normal because that was all I wanted. I just wanted to feel right and to be able to successfully interact with other people as myself.
But instead a cosmic joke was played upon me when I was born. And since beginning transition in 2000 the one thing I have learned (if anything) is to never seek acceptance. Not from Cis people, not from trans people. Not from anyone. Given the opportunity no one will give you a fair shake. Given the opportunity no one will recognize you for who and what you are. I can't transition other people. I can't change how other people think about me in their minds. So for me transition will be about never giving anyone the opportunity to judge me as something other than what I am.
It doesn't matter what any M2F does, whether she sells herself in the porn industry or whatever... People will never be able to accept trans men and women on any legitimate level. People may be nice and people may try, but human beings cannot understand what they cannot feel. And we will always be a conundrum to them, one that they think they understand when in reality they haven't got a clue. And we are all different. Will I ever meet another trans woman who is really like me? And even if I did meet her, would I still be able to relate to her a week from now or her to me for that matter, a week from now, a month from now?
I am so tired of trying to be what I am that I have given up on it. So I won't try to be me anymore. Instead I will just be. And I won't ever seek the friendship of another trans woman because I realize how wrong that is now, to seek friendship because of a belief that we share common ground when the reality is that we are all different and a condition doesn't make for any kind of unity.
I think I am finally growing past this thing
And in case you don't understand what I am saying, even M2Fs when they are early in transition tend to think of "stealth" as a dirty lie, as deception. Deceiving men or other people into thinking we are women. What does that say about us? That even we ourselves don't believe we are women? We like to say we are women but it tends to be a response to not being accepted as women. A way to protest. Instead of that if we really consider ourselves to be women... Well... I intend to put my money where my mouth is.
I'm done with the games. It's time to move forward again.
Everyone's different, and this isn't a competition.
Reply # 39, interesting post on many a level ---- yet let's not forget that:
"We do not see things as they are, but see things as WE are"
It is always good to be reminded of that, including myself of course :)
Axélle
Quote from: EmmaMcAllister on July 04, 2012, 09:34:15 PM
While I certainly agree that "objectification" is a terrible thing, I think the term gets thrown around too often. Sexuality is not our enemy, and to assume that attraction to pre-op women is just a simple fetish is to place faith in a strict gender binary I don't believe exists.
The sex industry attracts vulnerable groups, no question. But rational people also choose these careers. Sex is a key aspect of the human condition, and you'll never get rid of sex based entertainment. Blaming the consumer is problematic because it paints them all with the same brush, assuming that no one turns to the sex industry for healthy reasons.
Myself, I enjoy pornography and I do use the services of prostitutes. Am I helping to prop up these industries? In my own small way, yes. But I'm a physically disabled person, not particularly attractive, and sex partners have never really been available to me. Without porn and sex workers, I would never be able to explore my sexuality. Should I just let my situation leave me asexual? Am I "objectifying" sex workers? Am I a horrible person? No, no, and I hope not.
These things are never black and white, and the solutions are never simple. You can help vulnerable groups by expanding opportunity, easing poverty, and offering real choice. But it will always be a choice, and it's not for anyone to judge but the people involved.
You're very honest .
Quote from: Axélle on July 05, 2012, 11:21:00 AM
Reply # 39, interesting post on many a level ---- yet let's not forget that:
"We do not see things as they are, but see things as WE are"
It is always good to be reminded of that, including myself of course :)
Axélle
We certainly do see things as we are and it's powerful magic.
But that truth has to be balanced against another truth which goes something like... "We are going to have to put on our big girl panties and realize that some things are out of our control."
It reminds me of another situation where someone decided to either be fleshly or spiritual. The tendency for some is to attempt to be a spiritual being instead of being a physical being. Abstain from the pleasures of the flesh in order to ascend to a higher spiritual plane. Or the opposite, to turn from "faith" and indulge in hedonism. Neither experience is very complete because humans tend to be spiritual and physical and one must find balance.
I believe that in order to work in harmony with the world one must recognize that sometimes he or she will tend to see things not as they are but rather as he or she is. If an individual is fearful and mistrusting then he or she will see the world as a dangerous place of betrayal and backstabbing. However in some situations that is what the world is. Still are those backstabbers and betrayers backstabbers and betrayers or are they simply people... given an opportunity to do the wrong thing?
So I put on my big girl panties and realize that not only is the world what I am, the world is also what I allow it to be. I can create back stabbers and betrayers simply by giving them the opportunity, simple ignorant people then become "enemies". For instance if I were to want to live as female after transition but chose to share photographs of myself, identifying myself as trans then I would be giving the world an opportunity to betray me and stab me in the back. Would those people be intentionally evil? Maybe, maybe not. Mostly the ignorant take an opportunity and run with it, fools and their follies.
Gossip is a perfect example of ignorant people running with an opportunity. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. But the bypass to Hell is paved with ignorance.
Part of putting on my big girl panties is realizing that I have a choice as to what I share with people and what I keep to myself and sharing can be powerful. Sharing can create a life of strife and suffering, powerlessness and despair. There are remedies for such things such as moving and starting over, changing one's name etc., but a stitch in time saves nine stitches every time. And hindsight is generally clearer than foresight so there will be times when repairs become extensive and then one must determine whether to buy a new garment and begin fresh or make a lot of repairs, knowing that the garment will be imperfect. I am currently shopping for a new pair of bloomers.
M2Fs will sell themselves into prostitution and pornography for as long as they are able. Society will continue to see M2Fs as men and will use porn as evidence of that perception. If one has the opportunity to present herself as a trans woman (or rather the opportunity to avoid that presentation) then she makes a willful choice. If she chooses to present herself as a trans woman then some things will be out of her control. The fools will run with the information she has given about herself and Society will perceive her as a man and associate her with the M2Fs it sees in porn. If she has the luxury of instead presenting herself as a woman and withholding that information then she can enter more so into an experience where recognizing that she sees the world as she is has a lot more power.
I hope a guy's opinion is welcome here.
Women can be objectified for all sorts of reasons. You peruse a porn site, you see women exploited on the basis of race. In fact, that is the biggest one in my mind and it's the first thing I think of. stereotypes of the Asian woman, or the Black woman, etc...which some people come to truly expect of these women sexually.
It can happen on the basis of their class ("trailer trash", "needs money for X"). On the basis of their body size, shape, ability. On the basis of a certain body part (it can include anything that seems different such as very large breasts, etc). You can find porn of pretty much anything, quite easily.
In this case, of the "->-bleeped-<-" porn, the woman is being objectified on the basis of having a penis.
So do I think it's the same? Pretty much. Different consequences for different women. I have some major, major issues with the porn and sex industry, but that is a different story.
Quote from: Papa Taco on July 05, 2012, 08:05:18 PM
In this case, of the "->-bleeped-<-" porn, the woman is being objectified on the basis of having a penis.
So do I think it's the same? Pretty much. Different consequences for different women. I have some major, major issues with the porn and sex industry, but that is a different story.
Except in all other instances (besides the woman with a penis) the woman is still considered and perceived as a woman.
Which is pretty much not the same O_o ...
Quote from: Noey Noonesson on July 05, 2012, 07:50:26 AM
I am so tired of trying to be what I am that I have given up on it. So I won't try to be me anymore. Instead I will just be.
For me transition was a bit like eating the same thing over and over again till I puked. For years I wouldn't look at a site, forum or do a search on anything related. Being what we are is not something that is easy to forget, but it can be ignored. Being really sick of the whole thing was how I came to just be. I'm having my little transient trip down memory lane on this forum now, but my visit here is quickly nearing it's end.
QuoteAnd I won't ever seek the friendship of another trans woman because I realize how wrong that is now, to seek friendship because of a belief that we share common ground when the reality is that we are all different and a condition doesn't make for any kind of unity.
I feel very much the same way. I don't think of it as wrong in an absolute sense but to have a friendship with a trans woman is just not for me. When I first came under the care of the local GIC they strongly suggested I'd seek out others (some kind of support group or something) but doing that was totally out of the question for me. I felt it would bolster and reinforce an identity as a trans woman, and that I really didn't want. Apart from my trips to the Mercure hotel and clinic next door I've never spoken to a trans woman face to face, and even while there I mostly kept to myself.
Quote
I'm done with the games. It's time to move forward again.
I wish you the best of luck :) And thanks for your insightful posts. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them.
I think that, like soap operas and sitcoms, porn mirrors the culture at hand--just, these days, smaller and smaller segments of that culture due to the long tail and creation of niche markets. Making a change to porn won't make a difference overall to the culture--first the change has to be made to the culture, then porn will reflect that change. Y'know, in another generation . . . If we want people to see us as women, we have to show people us as women. The trouble is, it's not sensational news when a TS has transitioned properly, because all you get to see is a normal woman living a normal life, and from a news standpoint that's boring--but if gay men can slowly begin to convince many straight people that they're good members of society then we can do the same. At that point, anyone who comes out MtF would be treated like a woman (or at least someone who, like little girls, trains to be socialized as a woman) even if they stayed out. Though, yeah, we'd still be sexually objectified--just maybe more the way women are then the way we are right now, in an in-between state (it's always worse when you're Other, and from a great many perspectives at the moment we're considered Other).
Prostitution is another deal. I personally am in favour of a highly regulated version of it, and wish Canada would get this fixed. If it was, it would be possible for a prostitute to work more or less safely, and to get out without problems once they made the money they needed to (if they want to get out, that is). Brothels are now legal in Ontario, and now they ought to be heavily encouraging those brothels to draw in the street walkers and drive out the pimps; this is not yet an industry where just anyone can freelance safely (frankly I'm not even in favour of the upscale models working alone, but there's not much that can be done to stop them from taking the risks, given that some of their clients may be pretty powerful men).
I look forward to the day when cosmetic cyborg implants become available. Then the available kink for people to focus on fetishizing will be so much beyond the pale of current societal norms that people will look at us and say, "You're pre-op? Who cares? Let's go check out the robotic extensions on that guy." And leave us in peace to just be women.