Susan's Place Transgender Resources

So, although every country (or state/province) has different laws surrounding getting your ID to reflect the gender you live as - whether it's no problem, or impossible, or you can change everything except your birth certificate or whatever - there's one common theme: the requirement of "SRS".

I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on what they personally consider "SRS", and if it should be mandatory in all cases, or if T and consistently presenting/passing as male should be enough for the law.






IMHO, I think the definition of SRS should be decided by the individual and their GP/endocrinologist/psychiatrist/whoever. Of course, it should still be irreversible to stop people from hopping between legal genders.
I live in BC, where T and top surg are covered by MSP, but not any type of lower surgery - even though the government requires at least a hysterectomy to change your birth certificate.
Since I'm only 18, I'm really troubled by being forced to live legally identified as female when I am very obviously male, simply because I don't feel mature enough to make the permanent decision of whether or not I will at some point want to have biological children.
I can't comprehend why Vital Statistics would want all transitioned transsexual people to be sterile - because really, if it was only about "making sure you're sure", the permanent removal of my tits, irreversible changes of male puberty, and money spent on name changes and doctor's fees should suffice.....probably just slamming my head against a brick wall with these people though. UGH.

I voted no.   Here in Massachusetts the law for changing birth certificate gender is a doctor's note saying surgery has been "completed" but doesn't specify any more than that.   To the best of my understanding, people have gotten away with just top surgery.  Driver's license only requires a note from a physician/therapist/social worker affirming that you are living as your new gender and are likely to continue doing so.

In my opinion, regardless of any hormones or surgery, your IDs should all reflect the gender you live and present as.

I'm not sure I even care if people "hop" between genders. Put the money down and let them "hop". Perhaps it would save a few people from getting SRS and regretting it later. How often is this going to happen and who cares? It hurts no one. I think the perceived threat is to the gender binary.

--Jay J

I'm undecided. If someone is, say, 2 years on T, totally passes and lives as male, but can't afford any form of bottom surgery, what sense is there in them having a female gender marker on anything?

On the other hand, because I have a female marker, my hysterectomy will be covered when I get the appointment. So.

No way should it be required.

Quote from: aleon515 on October 13, 2012, 10:09:51 PM
I'm not sure I even care if people "hop" between genders. Put the money down and let them "hop". Perhaps it would save a few people from getting SRS and regretting it later. How often is this going to happen and who cares? It hurts no one. I think the perceived threat is to the gender binary.

--Jay J

Totally agree. Especially with the underlined.

Depending on the state and even the judge a specially worded letter after top surgery is enough.

I vote No,
I feel its sick that the goverment should force us to have a surgery on such a sensetive area to gain acceptence for our everyday life.

putting it out in another way:
why should I suport surgery who dosen't infact the healt, who is expensive and very risky, because thats what the norm expect us to do?

I belive for practical information being trans should be putted together with your medical information and such,
cause there is some situations where it can be relevant that your trans for your health. but it shouldnt be something for your regular life who would mean you couldnt change your gender marked. 

It's completely ridiculous.  I can halfway see their reasoning, they need to stop people just changing their gender willy-nilly encase people do it to try and evade taxes or debts or something, but it's completely unfair what they're asking us to do in some places.  Not only are they making people fit their ideals of what male and female are -- by having the 'correct' genitals -- but they're saying that we have to go through surgery, which carries potentially life-threatening complications.  Any general anesthesia carries a risk of death.  It's not common but it happens, and it boils down to our governments saying, "If you want to be seen by yourself in the eyes of the law you have to put your life at risk.  If you won't do that then clearly you were never a man/woman to start with."  It's disgusting.

I had all of mine changed with top surgery, but dont believe they require that for SS/passports any more.  My BC did require lower surgery, but all that entailed was a notarized statement from my doctor stating that they had examined me and I was male, because they only wanted a statement from a US doctor.


Jay

I can also see why requirements such as this exist. Let's face it, the world would get "weird" for lack of a better word if everyone could just change their gender marker on legal docs/IDs at will (by just filling some papers and paying a fee). I'm sure there's people out there who would fetishize it as well or simply do it to "gain access" to gender specific spaces, etc. Have to face facts that not everyone out there is a cool human being.

That said, I think there should be case by case exceptions. Plenty of trans folks are okay with their genitals. Should they be forced to have surgery to change that marker if they're otherwise happy with themselves and living as their chosen gender? I don't think so. Likewise, if someone doesn't have the funds but they want and plan to have surgery should they be held back simply because of that? I don't think so.

There's a problem in society with "passing" of course. Actually, I think that's the main problem here. If you're trans, it's usually very important to you (and the therapists) that you pass before you get the marker change. If you happen to be the few where it's not important to you and you can handle people misgendering you and you've gone through therapy and otherwise determined you're trans I think a consideration should be made for legal gender change in that instance too. Not sure if the rest of society, etc. would agree with me though.

Requiring some sort of surgery to change gender markers is a combination of things...classist (not all people can afford surgery), ableist (not all people are able to get surgery due to health problems), and a little cissexist (we shouldn't have to make our genitals conform to what is considered okay to get the safety of a gender marker change).

Quote from: insideontheoutside on October 14, 2012, 07:48:39 PM
I can also see why requirements such as this exist. Let's face it, the world would get "weird" for lack of a better word if everyone could just change their gender marker on legal docs/IDs at will (by just filling some papers and paying a fee). I'm sure there's people out there who would fetishize it as well or simply do it to "gain access" to gender specific spaces, etc. Have to face facts that not everyone out there is a cool human being.

I'm sure that's a reason given. I don't think that it is a real reason though. What's to stop some "bad guy" from crossdressing? No one needs to change gender to cause problems. If they were really going to do this to cause problems. I don't think it would really end up to be any kind of revuenue stream.  I think that Nygeel got it about right. I think the problem with it in society's terms is the gender binary. Got to preserve that. I don't know that they even know the whole concept. Society is uncomfortable with anyone getting out of line (in the gender sense) so they have to police it.

--Jay J

I can see at least hormones being a requirement for getting a gender marker change.  Requiring full SRS is just overkill, though.  Phallo and meta both cost ridiculous amounts and aren't covered by insurance.  They're difficult for anyone to afford and some people just can't save up that much, let alone people who don't want bottom surgery in the first place.

Well, as someone who won't ever be able to afford SRS or the weeks off of work it requires, I think it is pretty ludicrous that anyone would require such intense surgery for a gender marker change. For those trans folks who pass physically, it's not fair that they have to be outed at every possible instance requiring a legal ID. We want to live as our true genders, and we can;t do that if we are always labeled as trans by our ID's incongruent gender marker. HRT, voice training, and tolerating all of the stigma that comes with being trans should be enough to prove that we are serious and not just fetish seekers.

Plus, what about FTMs? They're bottom surgery hardly has good results...

The required surgeries for FTM individuals is usually top surgery and oophorectomy (removing the ovaries - sterilisation) I believe.

Oh, so you don't need the phalloplasty? Well, good for you guys.

I think it should be as simple as getting a doctor's note and filling out forms. The note could be from a therapist saying you're trans and require a gender marker change, an end or gp saying you're taking hormones or a surgeon saying you've had a trans related surgery.

The most ideal situation would be not having gender markers in the first place.

Quote from: Nygeel on October 14, 2012, 11:23:06 PM
I think it should be as simple as getting a doctor's note and filling out forms. The note could be from a therapist saying you're trans and require a gender marker change, an end or gp saying you're taking hormones or a surgeon saying you've had a trans related surgery.

That's how it works in Ontario now. The world seems to still be spinning so far.

I have two friends who are Intersex, so I really think that apart from medical issues the whole idea of gender is really useless.  As someone on a film I saw pointed out,  cisgendered men with a pot belly have to sit to pee, so the penis is really irrelevant. Notice it is always the penis, in our male dominated culture too.

Karen.

As far as I am aware, lower surgery is not required in the UK to change your gender marker.  However, it is significant evidence to a gender panel that you wish to live in your chosen gender for the rest of your days!

Quote from: Nygeel on October 14, 2012, 11:23:06 PM
I think it should be as simple as getting a doctor's note and filling out forms. The note could be from a therapist saying you're trans and require a gender marker change, an end or gp saying you're taking hormones or a surgeon saying you've had a trans related surgery.

The most ideal situation would be not having gender markers in the first place.

For many documents in the UK it is permissable to use Miss or Ms without much of a problem.  However, to have your gender changed on your birth certificate, you are required to go before a legal panel and to provide evidence that you intend to live in your new gender for the rest of your life.

Voted no. Where I'm from, HRT for a year is enough to change your legal gender on everything.

Quote from: Pippa on October 15, 2012, 05:38:41 AM
For many documents in the UK it is permissable to use Miss or Ms without much of a problem.  However, to have your gender changed on your birth certificate, you are required to go before a legal panel and to provide evidence that you intend to live in your new gender for the rest of your life.

That's still not awesome. A friend of mine had his title changed to Mr years ago then got hormones privately because he was denied at a gender clinic. At over a year on hormones. He could no longer afford private and went to a clinic and was denied multiple times. I don't really think it's that simple and the system isn't so great.

Personally,, I think gender should be defined by how we define ourselves. if that "queers the world" so be it. Look at how much space even on this site is devoted to if someone looks "male enough"  or "female enough". Would it be great if we could just live in a world where everyone could just be themselves and not be shunted into some category based on mostly arbitrary criteria???

Indeed, I was just reading an article on something that I've been suggesting for quite sometime. It involves standardized psychological testing. many of those tests divide results based on "presenting gender". However, it is entirely possible that  a person taking this type of test who identifies as the opposite gender would score in the range common for that gender but uncommon for their biological gender. You would be surprised how many and what type of measures divide results along gender lines. However, someone like me would probably get an "invalid score" or at least an odd score as I still have a female body but identify (always internally and only now to others) fairly strongly as male. And of course, the examiner giving the tests - tests NEVER ask!

So in general - I say get rid of the silly markers on our forms or let folks just "pick and chose" - perhaps with "none of the above" being an option.

The criteria isn't entirely irrelevant for everything. If you switch the Olympics to gender-neutral categories, 75% of the women would disappear instantly. Testosterone is a muscle booster. Or prisons? Gender-neutral prisons under our current system would be disastrous.

And a lot of the world is still incredibly male-dominated. If you have no way to pick out an under-privileged class, you have no way to push for equal rights... Total removal of categorization would sweep a lot of problems under the carpet. Particularly health-related ones: like the millions and millions of women who don't exist throughout much of Central Asia and the Asia Pacific because of sex-selective abortion.

It just isn't as simple as "get rid of the silly markers." Those markers still serve definitive roles in our society. I'm not saying that getting rid of them shouldn't be an end goal... but it's an end goal that is a long, long way away and will require broad sweeping changes of our actual societies before that could even become a discussion.

Until that is even a glimmering possibility (which is extremely unlikely to be in ANY of our lifetimes), making the option available to trans* folks to shift their markers more easily and offering a third category (on SOME things) seems to be the best fix.

Most of our world is still based on that dichotomy of male/female. You can't just pull the plug suddenly and expect things to keep functioning. Not going to happen. And to be clear, I'm non-binary, so I'm personally invested in reducing the amount of gender crap I have to cope with on a daily basis. But that is going to be an incredibly slow, painful process. We can't even manage gender-neutral clothing stores yet. One step at a time.

I'm not sure re: getting rid of gender entirely, I know someone said this but I didn't. There are a few uses of it. (Perhaps less than one might think, but still.) Some of things that Sarah mentioned sound useful.

I think a third gender and/or a more simple way of changing genders to me makes sense. There are some instances where gender ID makes little sense. Does it really matter what gender you are on a driver's license. Perhaps it is more for insurance purposes (to charge males of a certain age higher rates?)  It shows the picture after all.

There could be more gender neutral situation in a clothing store. Put the stores in categories, for instance, but put the dressing rooms in a central place. Provide locks on the doors and an attendant or two (depends on size of store) there. This is how just about 100% of thrift stores I have been to work. Nobody seems to mind this is situation.


--Jay J

Quote from: TessaM on October 15, 2012, 06:44:11 PM
Ontario seems like god's country from my perspective. I really think ill be moving to Ottawa when im done school.
I wish Quebec would "get it." I am a woman. Do you know how embarassing it is to have to show my id to people? A bouncer at a bar once saw my id and started giving me ->-bleeped-<- in Italian. (Knew i was from my name.) What a prick, I didnt make a scene but I was so angry. "Bro why would you do this bro?!?!" Give me a break! Once a cop asked me for id too. She was furious! She said she was serious, and she needed MY id, not a friends. Do you know how embarassing it was for me to explain my situation to her? (Albeit when I did she was more sympathetic, and I was kinda flattered that im not longer recognizeable by the photo in my id card)

I'm sorry, Tessa. Quebec is still kind of brutal on those things. Have you considered changing the gender marker on your passport and using that for ID? It's federal so Quebec can't stop you from changing that. I used to use my passport for ID all the time before I finally got a driver's license.

You just need this: http://www.metamorpho-sis.com/blog/PPTC%20152%20-%20Request%20for%20PPT%20indicating%20different%20sex%20-%20BIL%20%2805-09%29.pdf (http://www.metamorpho-sis.com/blog/PPTC%20152%20-%20Request%20for%20PPT%20indicating%20different%20sex%20-%20BIL%20%2805-09%29.pdf)

And a note from your doctor saying you are trans/a girl/living as female/whatever.

(And all the standard passport application crap of course.)

Well...a couple things with the whole gender marker bit. Right now women are housed with men in prison...I feel like there's a lot of prison system reform that's needed. In general there's trouble for small men in a men's prison similar to what people think there would be towards women. Right now the Olympics has a crummy system that doesn't allow a lot of trans people from competing, and shames a lot of women for performing well (one woman was forced to have a genital exam, not knowing what was going on because she was thought to be intersex). Plus, when it comes to gymnastics having a "more female" body or hormone levels can help in a lot of events as flexibility is valued instead of strictly strength.

My view on gender or sex markers is probably radically different from everyone else's. But I can say that I find some laws to be insanely outdated.

Quote from: TessaM on October 15, 2012, 07:02:54 PM
Thank you so much Sarah :)
I got my passport a week ago since I will be going to the states to speak with Dr.Spiegel. My passport now says male :( But I will be going to the passport office (2 minute drive) this weekend or after I get a note from my gp and get this changed asap!

No worries, I like being useful. <3

It will probably only give you a 2-year passport, fyi. Though when I did mine they gave me a 5-year one, so I dunno and they didn't even ask me for the doctor's letter... Sometimes they are a bit confused about this stuff because it's so uncommon.

Quote from: Nygeel on October 15, 2012, 07:09:27 PM
Well...a couple things with the whole gender marker bit. Right now women are housed with men in prison...I feel like there's a lot of prison system reform that's needed. In general there's trouble for small men in a men's prison similar to what people think there would be towards women. Right now the Olympics has a crummy system that doesn't allow a lot of trans people from competing, and shames a lot of women for performing well (one woman was forced to have a genital exam, not knowing what was going on because she was thought to be intersex). Plus, when it comes to gymnastics having a "more female" body or hormone levels can help in a lot of events as flexibility is valued instead of strictly strength.

Oh I totally agree the current system is ->-bleeped-<-ty. But you can't replace a system with nothing. You have to replace a system with another system. And there has to be political and social will to do that. You can't just go "get rid of gender markers" and expect it to work itself out. Seriously, do you really want to lose the ability to track pay equity? There are consequences to these things.

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 15, 2012, 07:19:32 PM
Oh I totally agree the current system is ->-bleeped-<-ty. But you can't replace a system with nothing. You have to replace a system with another system. And there has to be political and social will to do that. You can't just go "get rid of gender markers" and expect it to work itself out. Seriously, do you really want to lose the ability to track pay equity? There are consequences to these things.

And I'm cool with fixing everything else but removing gender markers from IDs and birth certificates are part of what I think needs to happen. There's other ways to track things like that.

Quote from: Nygeel on October 15, 2012, 08:20:56 PM
And I'm cool with fixing everything else but removing gender markers from IDs and birth certificates are part of what I think needs to happen. There's other ways to track things like that.

Just curious, but why do we have to do away with markers? To be honest, those can be incredibly useful in some situations, especially medical.

Quote from: Ayden on October 15, 2012, 08:51:34 PM
Just curious, but why do we have to do away with markers? To be honest, those can be incredibly useful in some situations, especially medical.

By getting rid of markers there's no need to change markers. Also with that, people who identify as neither male or female don't need some "other" marker. And with people who are born with an intersex condition, they're not assigned as male or female. They get the opportunity to sort of figure out their gender without the assignment. Granted, parents in this situation could raise their kid (IS) as whatever gender they see as most fit but doctors wouldn't feel the need to surgically assign a sex.

Well, I'm pretty sure a doctor has records of past medical history, which includes being transgender. I don't mind having gender distinctions. Just don't make it public information with a mere look at an ID.  :-\

I'm really not a supporter of gender binary. I really wish there was a 3rd option. OR the option to choose no option. But our society definitely isn't there yet. Hell a lot of it can't even deal with the FACT that intersex actually exists (in like a hundred+ different forms no less). People are so caught up in there being only 2 models. And it's tied into everything – general society, Christian-based religions, school, work, sports and other activities, etc. etc. People need to be educated that trans (and intersex) are actually NORMAL states of human beings, should not have stigmas attached, and should be accepted just like regular male and regular female are accepted.

I've often wondered why exactly there even is a gender marker on a driver's license or ID? I really can't see any reason for that. Age, yes, but gender? It makes no sense. Even if you got in an accident and had to be medically treated doctors are going to find out, it's not like they look at your ID and go, "Oh this one's male ... okay ..." Birth certificate I can see but again, there should be a 3rd option there if anything doesn't fit the perfect male or perfect female mold (then let the kid decide when they're able if they want to go one way or the other or just stay as that 3rd option).

I voted 'no'. Cisgendered people don't need to sacrifice their fertility to be recognised as who they really are; it's cruel to stipulate that we should have to do so. How does forcing somebody to undergo surgery fit in with Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which guarantees everyone the right to security of person? And don't get me started about Article 16 which states that we all have the right to marry and to found a family.

Granted, trans people have a wide range of views on the subject of reproduction and I don't think there are any wrong answers when it comes to what we choose for ourselves. I firmly believe that everyone's reproductive rights must be a matter of personal choice. Nobody should be forced by The System to either keep or lose their reproductive ability, IMHO.

some people are just too afraid of "traps" for their own good.

i personally don't get how genitals can be so important in this matter, people should be given a chance to identify as themselves. if a gender marker is all that necessary, bigender people should get double sets of all their id papers, and the more netrois ones should get a no-gender marker. just to make it fair to everyone. i'm sure there are people who'd like both genders or more in their papers too

...getting rid of gender markers sounds like a good idea. in some cases it would be useful to know the chromosomal/hormonal/genital gender, but usually it isn't at all.

I chose other because while I believe genitals are a big part at least physical of what makes us who we are.  I have issue with SRS being required, but I also believes something needs to protect it from abuse.

My problem with it being required though is two fold, price is restrictive for many FTM/MTF.  Second Health Issues can put a stop to anyones SRS .  Price is very inclusive of FtM's where bottom surgury can cost up to 4x or more than MtF surgury,

As such you should not have to risk your financial well being, or health to change your gender marker.  At the same time, it can't be too easy as for non-dysphoric* individuals to change it on a whim.

Point is to stick with a gender marker till you die, we change it once to signify our true gender.

So yea its about 90% whack** but there is a small margin of logic.  That small margin of logic outweighs our plight imo as one needs to be 100% sure.  Its that 10% that helps perpetuate the shadow of doubt  (see sentence below)

But some states and countries don't require SRS.  There are other reasonable forms of proof that you are serious.


*I don't see dysphoria as an illness.  (obviously xD) But going by the legal medical definition.
**You were a Male born XX, or a Female born XY.  That is all there is to it~  Rather than getting the right chromosomes assigned to your brains development.

PSA: All statistics are BS, but it makes sense in my mind  ;D

Quote from: Rita on October 16, 2012, 12:09:28 PM
So yea its about 90% whack** but there is a small margin of logic.  That small margin of logic outweighs our plight imo as one needs to be 100% sure.  Its that 10% that helps perpetuate the shadow of doubt  (see sentence below)

But some states and countries don't require SRS.  There are other reasonable forms of proof that you are serious.

Well, it sucks when a few people ruin it for a lot of others. However, once again, there are WAY MORE ways to prove you are serious than SRS. People tend to forget that hormones do a lot of serious stuff to people mentally//physically. Surgery isn't the only drastic part of transition. I've only been training my voice for a month, and I can already say that it's hard as heck to adjust. If someone lives as their true gender seriously, non-stop for a long time, I feel it's horrible to ask him/her to prove his/her commitment even more with serious surgery.

I'd like to hear from the two who voted yes.

Quote from: DianaP on October 16, 2012, 03:21:23 PM
Well, it sucks when a few people ruin it for a lot of others. However, once again, there are WAY MORE ways to prove you are serious than SRS. People tend to forget that hormones do a lot of serious stuff to people mentally//physically. Surgery isn't the only drastic part of transition. I've only been training my voice for a month, and I can already say that it's hard as heck to adjust. If someone lives as their true gender seriously, non-stop for a long time, I feel it's horrible to ask him/her to prove his/her commitment even more with serious surgery.

I feel hormones play the largest role in mental health, they really give you that initial burst and sense and feeling of normalcy.  Its a beautiful feeling ^.^  one I will never forget.

Problem is most people seem to care more about its physical aspects.  Such as hunger, breasts growth, hip widening ect ect(for example in MtF).  It takes time for them to realize everything else, or it just becomes so subconciously normal that its not discussed or thought about.

In the same vein, many law makers don't see beyond the physical either.  And never have the ability to feel the power of aligning ones gender inside of your own mind, as well as through the use of hormones. 

Quote from: Snowpaw on October 16, 2012, 03:40:09 PM
I'd like to hear from the two who voted yes.

Considering the potential firestorm that may start as a result, I'd rather not.  ::)

Quote from: Rita on October 16, 2012, 04:18:05 PM
I feel hormones play the largest role in mental health, they really give you that initial burst and sense and feeling of normalcy.  Its a beautiful feeling ^.^  one I will never forget.

Problem is most people seem to care more about its physical aspects.  Such as hunger, breasts growth, hip widening ect ect(for example in MtF).  It takes time for them to realize everything else, or it just becomes so subconciously normal that its not discussed or thought about.

Well I think that for ftms, T changes you the most-- physically and mentally. I haven't started yet so I am not positive about this.

--Jay J

While I, personally, wouldn't mind having bottom surgery, it would also be nice if they paid for it since it's not going to happen for a very long time otherwise (SRS is not covered in my province). In the meantime, I've got a lie on my ID. (They also won't let people correct that in my province anyway according to what I've heard.)
It also seems kind of backwards to put something as painless and uncomplicated as changing a gender marker after something as serious, irreversible, and potentially life threatening as major surgery.

Quote from: Anon on October 13, 2012, 07:54:53 PM
I live in BC, where T and top surg are covered by MSP, but not any type of lower surgery - even though the government requires at least a hysterectomy to change your birth certificate.

Are you sure about having lower surgery as a requirement in BC? Only Quebec requires that.

and yes, I voted for no. Asking for any lower surgery just to change gender marker is absolutely ridiculous. No question about that. People should have rights to control their own body and decide what's best for them. I'm sure they could come up with other solutions other than forcing people to risk their life and give them horrible financial problems.

Quote from: aleon515 on October 16, 2012, 06:27:17 PM
Well I think that for ftms, T changes you the most-- physically and mentally. I haven't started yet so I am not positive about this.

--Jay J

Anyone with boosted T will change physically(although not as drastic as someone taking T), but the mental aspects are most important.  I am pretty sure FtM's feel similar to MtF's in that regard~ with different dynamics of course.

I think the requirement should be hrt for a year. No cis person would ever do that anyway so you wouldn't have the 'pedophile  dude' in the 'wrong' restrooms that all the cis people are talking about

Quote from: Nygeel on October 14, 2012, 08:43:32 PM
and a little cissexist (we shouldn't have to make our genitals conform to what is considered okay to get the safety of a gender marker change).

That's also basically impossible to do currently. ;)

I would understand it a little more if everyone were able to truly go "all the way" and get all the cis/biological structures and functions. lol. But even in that case it would be insisting on a binary... much more so, in fact, because it's not like everyone who's trans wants that, for various reasons. The surgeries as they are now, by definition, defy the gender binary. So it's actually more like a form of denial to require all that, it's like saying "to conform to the binary you have to do everything humanly possible, even though it still won't conform to the binary, and even though there are certainly considerable risks with such procedures."
lol.

Quote from: Sparrowhawke on October 17, 2012, 01:55:43 PM
I think the requirement should be hrt for a year. No cis person would ever do that anyway so you wouldn't have the 'pedophile  dude' in the 'wrong' restrooms that all the cis people are talking about

I don't see how that's any fairer than the SRS requirement. Just like SRS, HRT can be costly, hard to access, pose a risk to the health, won't turn a trans person into an exact copy of the opposite sex, and most importantly isn't desired or needed by all trans people.

If there has to be a requirement, it should be a signed letter from a psychiatrist trained in the matter (so cis people could hardly fool them) and nothing else.

About that, I also don't get the "cis people would abuse it" argument that has been mentioned several times now, I haven't seen any concrete examples backed up with factual proofs as to how it could be used to actually mess with the system.
The only one I can think of is straight cis people about to go to or already in jail changing their legal gender to be housed with the opposite gender. It wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if the prison system wasn't so effed up in the first place, but that is another problem all on its own. It could be circumvented by housing transgender inmates in a separate area and/or in individual cells - sure it's segregationist, and I believe that prison should be about protecting society rather than punishing individuals, , but if it comes down to choosing between punishing good citizens for the sake of criminals or the other way around, the latter is an obvious choice.

Ok, as a slight diversion, in regards to HRT, how costly are we talking about here? NYC, by the way.

Anywho, I agree with Sia's psychiatrist evaluation, regardless of how much I don't like psychiatrists.  :icon_chainsaw:

Quote from: John Smith on October 14, 2012, 10:53:23 PM
The required surgeries for FTM individuals is usually top surgery and oophorectomy (removing the ovaries - sterilisation) I believe.

whatever its bottom or top its still ridiculous. your cutting in another human being neither might they want it, neither do it do them good or you good,
the only reason is so we all can pretend to be "normal"

Natkat - I agree with you - all so people can be "normal". Which I think you are implying "binary" i really wish we could get rid of 'binary' and just have a 'spectrum'.

Interestingly, but somewhat out of left field - as we move more towards quantum in computing, in physics, and in mechanics, maybe our thinking will also evolve from "binary'. As we starting seeing the world as an infinite possibility between 0 and 1 maybe we will stop requiring people to be a "0" or a "1".

I know - not in my lifetime, or my kids, but maybe someday. 

Quote from: DianaP on October 17, 2012, 06:27:15 PM
Ok, as a slight diversion, in regards to HRT, how costly are we talking about here? NYC, by the way.

Anywho, I agree with Sia's psychiatrist evaluation, regardless of how much I don't like psychiatrists.  :icon_chainsaw:

HRT Is very CHEAP with or without insurance in NYC.  SRS is not  :icon_tears:

Depending on your income level, a months worth of spirol/estradial only cost me ~$40-$50 total.  That is with 60/120 pills which I find to be a bargain compared to some I heard that paid $150 or so or more.  That is WITHOUT insurance, which I had the misfortune not to have atm due to paperwork idiocy on their end.

With medicaid plan, I was getting everything for only $5.

Alright, perfect. Honestly, I'd rather just pay out of pocket under such circumstances so my mom doesn't b**** when she sees the bill...  :-\ (She's not exactly accepting).

I did not vote, but I think people should be able to change their ID to the gender they associate with, without having to jump through any ridiculous hoops.  In my ideal world, you could tell people your name and say you're male (or female) and that would be it, and people would just get it and use the right pronouns.  Unfortunately most are fixated on how you look, and the rest are fixated on our genitals.

In my ideal world, also, if they are going to require SRS to change gender markers, then they should be the ones to pay for it.


Jay

Just tried posting this and it didn't work... hopefully I don't end up making the same post twice.

I think having any surgery should be enough to legally change your sex. So top surgery would be enough. Because some trans people don't want or can't get surgery, you should also be allowed to change it if you've been on hormones for at least 2 years. But definitely some type of physical transition has to be present, as I don't think people should be allowed to change their sex unless they are transgendered.
For licenses/ID's, I think it's fine for the gender marker to be changed with a therapist's note though.

Quote from: Sia on October 17, 2012, 06:18:05 PM
About that, I also don't get the "cis people would abuse it" argument that has been mentioned several times now, I haven't seen any concrete examples backed up with factual proofs as to how it could be used to actually mess with the system.

What if a regular dude goes into therapy, fakes a story about always feeling like a woman, and then is allowed to change his sex to female to avoid registering for the draft? Or to make it easier to get into college? (I know some schools, such as WPI, make it much easier for girls to get in because so few girls go there).

My feeling is this: This is a rather bizarre situation that probably has happened once (there are people who seem to like to pretend to be something they are not, so I won't say it hasn't happened). Seems like a pretty extreme situation. I'd say that any person who would be willing and able to pull this all off successful, probably would have gender issues to begin with. I can't really imagine a guy doing this. I'd say though ok. (There is no actual draft in the US anyway. I also think there should be required public service for everybody.) I actually think this is more the kind of situation that someone would come up with as an excuse.


--Jay J

Quote from: aleon515 on October 19, 2012, 07:49:34 PM
My feeling is this: This is a rather bizarre situation that probably has happened once (there are people who seem to like to pretend to be something they are not, so I won't say it hasn't happened). Seems like a pretty extreme situation. I'd say that any person who would be willing and able to pull this all off successful, probably would have gender issues to begin with. I can't really imagine a guy doing this. I'd say though ok. (There is no actual draft in the US anyway. I also think there should be required public service for everybody.) I actually think this is more the kind of situation that someone would come up with as an excuse.


--Jay J

Good post. I agree it's an extreme situation that wouldn't happen often. Some people are nuts though and do things I can never understand. So I could see someone actually trying this and I wouldn't be cool with it if the laws allowed this kind of thing to happen. I see your point though.

Thanks Chamillion. I'm guessing that the odd situations that people bring up are things someone might think of. But they are just odd. There are laws re: fraud and that sort of thing to discourage these types of behaviors. Yes, laws are broken every day. But I don't think that everyone should suffer due to fraudulent behavior by a very few. I actually do NOT think they are the reasons for the laws. I believe the main fight against them has to do with the gender binary. It's VERY important for some people!

--Jay J

Quote from: Sia on October 17, 2012, 06:18:05 PM
I don't see how that's any fairer than the SRS requirement. Just like SRS, HRT can be costly, hard to access, pose a risk to the health, won't turn a trans person into an exact copy of the opposite sex, and most importantly isn't desired or needed by all trans people.

If there has to be a requirement, it should be a signed letter from a psychiatrist trained in the matter (so cis people could hardly fool them) and nothing else.

About that, I also don't get the "cis people would abuse it" argument that has been mentioned several times now, I haven't seen any concrete examples backed up with factual proofs as to how it could be used to actually mess with the system.
The only one I can think of is straight cis people about to go to or already in jail changing their legal gender to be housed with the opposite gender. It wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue if the prison system wasn't so effed up in the first place, but that is another problem all on its own. It could be circumvented by housing transgender inmates in a separate area and/or in individual cells - sure it's segregationist, and I believe that prison should be about protecting society rather than punishing individuals, , but if it comes down to choosing between punishing good citizens for the sake of criminals or the other way around, the latter is an obvious choice.

I wasn't really talking for my self there. I think we should just be able to change our gender markers without any of of hrt or anything, but I don't think that that would be possible. There is no way in hell that we (at least now. I don't know about the future) that we can make cis people think that's a good idea.  Remember there will always be transphobic people mothers that think that transwomen are just men that wants to rape women... And as far as I know. Nobody would ever take hrt because of that. I really wish it wasn't so, but it is.

Quote from: Sparrowhawke on October 22, 2012, 11:30:00 PM
I wasn't really talking for my self there. I think we should just be able to change our gender markers without any of of hrt or anything, but I don't think that that would be possible. There is no way in hell that we (at least now. I don't know about the future) that we can make cis people think that's a good idea.  Remember there will always be transphobic people mothers that think that transwomen are just men that wants to rape women... And as far as I know. Nobody would ever take hrt because of that. I really wish it wasn't so, but it is.

You only need a letter from a doctor or a psych to change your gender marker in Ontario. In Argentina, you don't even need the letter. So... perhaps it's getting a little chilly in hell at the moment? I dunno.

Say that to Europe and the us and other places I think. I myself hate it too. You really shouldn't discus this with me. I really wanted a world where your gender, but mostly sex (because not many places let you change the gender marker to actually reflect your gender) wasn't everywhere. We seriously don't need it other than for that medical reasons and even for that we only need for vary few things. It's not that I'm against gender, just that it need to be on places where is no reason for it.

it's kinda ridiculous that a guy can be registered as female just because a doctor misgendered him. and even more ridiculous that he can't correct this when he realizes there's been made a mistake. just think about it, how much couldn't a guy abuse the privilege a female body gives him, if he only wasn't too busy being depressed about not having the right parts... (sorry, some binary logic sense seems to have left me)

Quote from: Sarah7 on October 23, 2012, 12:38:08 AM
You only need a letter from a doctor or a psych to change your gender marker in Ontario. In Argentina, you don't even need the letter. So... perhaps it's getting a little chilly in hell at the moment? I dunno.

yep, now that it's fall, hell is getting chillier again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway)

It's not a requirement in the UK, nor is HRT--people can choose to delay or not have surgery. All we have to do is get a name change and a doctor's letter to change our passports, driver's licences and other kinds of photo ID. We can have new birth certificates as well if we just show that we've lived full time with the new name for 2 years, and again confirmation from a doctor, but no requirement for HRT or any surgery.

Cis people aren't going out and doing this willy-nilly and society hasn't collapsed.

Lower surgery should never be required to change your gender marker.

That would not be ethical for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that some people cannot physically undergo a surgical procedure. Their body isn't strong enough or healthy enough for it, and preventing them from changing their gender marker due to a physical limitation is a violation of the disability acts.

Not only that, but if you really want to require a penis for 'malehood' and a vagina for 'femalehood' then what in the world do we do with cisgender men who lose their penises? If female were default we could 'force' them to be listed as women, but then that means any MtF doesn't need bottom surgery, since a vagina wouldn't be a requirement of being listed as female.

This creates the conundrum of 'sexless' people. Would they get all forms of government I.D. taken away from them? Would they create a new category of 'neuter' for those who have no sexual organs?

After all, if a vagina is required to be listed as female, even a man who lost his 'legal right' to be male through injury would still not have the 'legal right' to be female.





The entire idea of requiring surgery is bogus, insane, and simply doesn't work in theory. There are too many situations where it falls apart.

And really, the government is worried about people 'hopping' gender? That's not going to do a dang thing. That's not going to cause trouble even if people were doing it. People who want to evade a crime need only to get a 'fresh' social security number and name, they're not going to live as the other sex. They don't NEED to. After all, there are billions of people in the world, it's not like someone's going to say, "That's a man, so he must be ______."

Good grief.

Couldn't agree more, ChaoticTribe. As I have said, where I live it's not required that people get any physical modification at all, and we haven't descended into chaos with cis people swapping names every other minute or something. It's actually still pretty hard to get the final gender recognition certificate, too.

Quote from: Green_Tony on October 25, 2012, 09:27:07 AM
Couldn't agree more, ChaoticTribe. As I have said, where I live it's not required that people get any physical modification at all, and we haven't descended into chaos with cis people swapping names every other minute or something. It's actually still pretty hard to get the final gender recognition certificate, too.

Yeah here in the U.S. it's actually pretty weird how it works. The different states have different requirements.

For example, in some states you only need a Dr's note saying you identify as male to get a male driver's license. In those states you can generally get your birth certificate switched the same way. Yet some states make you get surgery to have your birth certificate changed, and may or may not require that for your license. The social security office won't accept anything less than surgery, but for your passport you can just use your state I.D. and a Dr's letter. So you can have documents listing you as BOTH, and they're ALL valid. It's weird but infinitely better than not being able to change things at all. Slowly over time more and more places are letting you change things with less and less hassle but I wish that it would go faster, that's for sure.

That's wrong on so many levels and I don't agree with requiring lower surgery in order to change one's gender marker.  >:(

Snowman, reading your posts makes me get close to a seizure.  :laugh: