I mean can you get them to socialise with you like you were a woman? Okay, I know they won't treat you completely as a woman if you are presenting as male but what can you do to influence them in that direction? I understand that being a gay man helps but what if you're not? I don't want to lie.
Even if women don't know I am trans, they treat me like any other woman. Just the way I act, and talk puts them at ease to where they don't see me as the same threat as they do men. It has always been like this for me. I just be myself, and they treat me like a woman.
Thanks Brooke. So put them at their ease and try not to seem like a threat. Can you give any examples? And what sort of thing makes an average friendly man seem like a threat?
I've not had a problem with this. The women I deal with (mainly at work) treat me as one of their own. Before, I was mostly invisible, to men and women at work. Of course, now my behaviors have changed, I'm no longer hyper-aware and anxious about my body's relationship to females (which was agonizing to me).
My experience has been similar to what TessaM describes. I always just hung out with girls, I only have a small few male friends and they're my friends partners. One of them told me not long ago "you were never really a man anyway" in regards to how he thought of me lol. Anyway, I think it depends a lot on your culture, your age, what generation you're part of etc. I mean really if you want to "be one of the girls" then just come out :) I know it's hard and scary but, it's worth it :)
The older I get, the harder this gets.
I'm not good in a group. I'm more of a one-on-one person. When I was young and single, it was no big deal to be friends with females. Getting married and having kids complicated things. Women become uncomfortable at suggestions to get to know them better. Lunch or coffee invitations look like something illicit. Phoning them up just to chat is awkward no matter what I do to try to make them less so.
It's one of the major frustrations of my life.
Pretty much impossible at work, except for one that has a lot of suspicions about me and what interprets as "presentation", with "I don't know, but everyday you look more like a girl. skinny and with that tiny waist, skinny jeans, waxed eyebrows... and you know a bit too much about make up". Usually I am talked to when I am the only other person at the dinning room, but there are two things that don't help me a lot:
- My depressive mood that will make me sit in a corner at lunch.
- Raising my defensive "buttocks-tunnel" shell and letting bad jokes slip.
But it is a bit of a problem, mostly because of the generational barrier: I am the youngest at work. The females that usually talk to me have a difference of up to 20 years and see me more as their soon. With the rest, they are quite closed into their own groups, but I guess it is normal. I'll see three people talking in french, another two in german... I am a bit limited with only two languages.
Yet, two weeks ago I was called to company a few of the young ones for a drink (a bit of a special day for me). Happiest day in a long time. It will be easier if I could gradually come out in more aspects, but I still need to work on my personality. When I am depressed I tend to avoid conversation. As usual, I need a lot of confidence with people before taking openly, but I need it even more to sit close to people. Sitting in a corner and grabbing the newspaper instead of listening to the conversations probably makes me look like I am not interested. I should start changing that...
I in the same situation as agfrommd. I can mix with nieces, but I don't mix with other people at all, male or female.
I accept that. Can't change it.
QuotePhoning them up just to chat is awkward no matter what I do to try to make them less so
I don't know if its a generational thing, but I haven't done that since I was a teenager. I mean yes I have catch up calls with friends from time to time but not regularly.
Quote from: Isabelle on October 18, 2012, 04:39:19 PM
I don't know if its a generational thing, but I haven't done that since I was a teenager. I mean yes I have catch up calls with friends from time to time but not regularly.
It's all on FB now :>
Quote from: Andrea J on October 18, 2012, 03:01:32 PM
Thanks Brooke. So put them at their ease and try not to seem like a threat. Can you give any examples? And what sort of thing makes an average friendly man seem like a threat?
These are all just generalisations. I am in no way saying all or most men act like this.
From my observations, men seem to dominate whatever space they are in. They put off a kind of aura that pushes everything out of it. For me, this puts me off, and it seems to for a lot of other women. My body language is usually softer and more inviting. It allows people to have space to move. Also, when men talk to you, it kind of feels like they are checking you out or sizing you up. Women do this too it is just a bit more subtle or include a friendly comment. As for the acutal conversation. Very few men use language structure that invites feedback or other opinions. I know this makes me uncomfortable in the conversation, and a few of my female friends have said the same thing.
There are a lot of things that can make someone seem to be a threat. Once again, these are just my general observations and are by no means fact.
I've had a good time with most of the girls I know. There are some that seem to take OWNERSHIP about their femaleness, but I ignore that since...well...I'm a female! So I would say just be you and the rest will follow. :)
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 18, 2012, 04:57:13 PM
From my observations, men seem to dominate whatever space they are in. They put off a kind of aura that pushes everything out of it. For me, this puts me off, and it seems to for a lot of other women. My body language is usually softer and more inviting. It allows people to have space to move. Also, when men talk to you, it kind of feels like they are checking you out or sizing you up. Women do this too it is just a bit more subtle or include a friendly comment. As for the acutal conversation. Very few men use language structure that invites feedback or other opinions. I know this makes me uncomfortable in the conversation, and a few of my female friends have said the same thing.
This is very interesting Brooke. When you mention language structure that does not invite feedback, I'm sort of imagining someone stating their opinion as fact, perhaps asserting something is correct. I know, this is a simplification and it can of course be done in a gentle way, bit still tends to repel feedback Or did you have something more subtle in mind?
Quote from: Andrea J on October 18, 2012, 06:37:03 PM
This is very interesting Brooke. When you mention language structure that does not invite feedback, I'm sort of imagining someone stating their opinion as fact, perhaps asserting something is correct. I know, this is a simplification and it can of course be done in a gentle way, bit still tends to repel feedback Or did you have something more subtle in mind?
That is pretty much it. Have you ever listened closely to how many males speak? Even when talking about feelings everything seems to be a fact. If they were to add something like "isn't that right" to it, or phrased is such as "to me, it feels really frustrating", can make a huge difference in how the conversation is perceived. From my observations, many males would say something like "that is frustrating." Which leaves no room for anyone else to speak.
Quote from: Andrea J on October 18, 2012, 06:37:03 PM
This is very interesting Brooke. When you mention language structure that does not invite feedback, I'm sort of imagining someone stating their opinion as fact, perhaps asserting something is correct. I know, this is a simplification and it can of course be done in a gentle way, bit still tends to repel feedback Or did you have something more subtle in mind?
I find myself guilty of this. I hate it when I do it. When I was living as a boy debating was one of my favorite pastimes... My style of debating has always been to smash my oponants views in such a way it makes their next statement seem incorrect or clearly rediculous. It's a terrible habit. I think in hindsight I did it as a form of overcompensating for my lack of masculinity. Since as far back as I can remember my gender and sexuality was always questioned. Debating gave me a situation where I could exert some kind of "power" and prove I was a man.
Girls (and especially older women) have generally been very comfortable talking with me and being more open but this is only because they fully friend-zone me in their minds. There is a certain barrier still present for many that they cannot get beyond because they see a male and I am still excluded from the group on some levels. I suspect this will continue for anyone who knows I am trans unless I get into a completely different social circle with others who are also knowledgeable and accepting of gender variance.
Part of the reason I was always being bullied in high school was that I was one of the "girls". Girls did not care that I was a boy, I was more like one of them. Even in older life I always was more comfortable around women, therefore they always were more comfortable around me.
Guys always seemed to tag me as one of those "->-bleeped-<-s" and never really were to friendly.
I tended to have similar problems at school Ms OBrien. I wasn't really bullied, but tended to be quite isolated. Though I did go to an all boys school. :D
I knew this would happen. Today I was invited again to hang out. Everything was OK, I was happy... Until I looked at the mirror and the spell was broken. There is no way anybody can see anything girly with this neandhertal's head, that not even FFS could fix.
First emergency pill for anxiety attacks after getting a prescription. Incredible... It is like having a mask. Nobody would take me as a female or have the slightest confussion like this, so every time I lower the male acting or I am frowned upon and considered a insane and in need of getting a normal life. Sometimes I want to think what I feel is fake or only a sexual fetish, but more and more I keep feeling as trapped in a body that does not represent me, and forces a role in my life I hate. Women at work notice my changes, but they only seem to identify me as a metro-sexual in process.
Quote from: Isabelle on October 18, 2012, 07:49:36 PM
I find myself guilty of this. I hate it when I do it. When I was living as a boy debating was one of my favorite pastimes... My style of debating has always been to smash my oponants views in such a way it makes their next statement seem incorrect or clearly rediculous. It's a terrible habit. I think in hindsight I did it as a form of overcompensating for my lack of masculinity. Since as far back as I can remember my gender and sexuality was always questioned. Debating gave me a situation where I could exert some kind of "power" and prove I was a man.
Debating can get like that but I would hope that a point could still be made convincingly without having to become domineering. I mean I wouldn't want to think that you would loose the debate just because of female mannerisms. And of course its perfectly okay for women to have debating as one of their favorite pastimes too.
Quote from: TessaM on October 18, 2012, 03:08:07 PMand being "fabulous" 24/7 did help tho.
Most fun bit of advice!
To be honest, I can't quite figure out my relationship status with some of my girlfriends. As in whether they see me as the meterosexual guy or a big brother or whether they subconsciously register me as a female in male clothing.
I do meet up with a few of them one on one on occasion over coffee - purely platonic from all parties concerned, but we end up chatting about every aspect of life, including relationships.
Much as I enjoy these meetups, I do find them triggering at times. I still don't enjoy group situations at all.
I think that no one is really as obsessed with gender as trans people are. Most people are completely oblivious to it. Just be you. They'll be them, it's the best anyone can hope for.
My perspective is a bit different from the other responders. I think that you would have a very easy time fitting in and making a positive impression among women if you look male and act feminine. Most women love a feminine male, and that is what they will perceive you as (but they won't percieve you as female, if you are presenting as male, no matter how "feminine" you act).
As a fairly young transgender MTF, I do find it more difficult to befriend females than I had anticipated. Older women are quite easy because they tend to have an ease and open-mindedness about them that young women don't have. Young women I tend to find quite competitive and somewhat catty. I can feel them staring at me, scrutinizing me during conversation fairly often, trying to put their finger on what is different about me. Luckily, I pass very well...so it's not obvious to women that I am transgender. I think a lot of times, no matter how friendly or funny or kind I am, some women will just always feel uncomfotable around me but not know why that is. They just sense that I am different than them. And of course, I am.
For the friends that know about the complications with gender I have, they do treat me a bit differently, at least the girls do. I still can't do all of the things I want to do with them just due to my personal social fear, and that this is still something new to experience, but they treat me better this year than last~
I will say that the Trans* stuff had made me want to walk away from a lot of my 'guy' friends, as they are either too apathetic at me, or they just refuse to adapt! I've even asked them to stop calling me an insanely boyish nickname (can't say as it involves my last name), and its little things like that, that will just get on me. Latley I've been hanging out with the girl's more, and its been a lot better and happier for me~
Quote from: Brooke777 on October 18, 2012, 02:42:13 PM
Even if women don't know I am trans, they treat me like any other woman. Just the way I act, and talk puts them at ease to where they don't see me as the same threat as they do men. It has always been like this for me. I just be myself, and they treat me like a woman.
I concur.
Quote from: Zoey on October 30, 2012, 07:06:45 AM
My perspective is a bit different from the other responders. I think that you would have a very easy time fitting in and making a positive impression among women if you look male and act feminine. Most women love a feminine male,
Well that's a hopeful comment. To tell the truth I don't really know just how feminine I act but I have noticed people seeming to think I'm gay despite me not being. I never asked them but I felt it.
Quote from: Zoey on October 30, 2012, 07:06:45 AM
As a fairly young transgender MTF, I do find it more difficult to befriend females than I had anticipated. Older women are quite easy because they tend to have an ease and open-mindedness about them that young women don't have. Young women I tend to find quite competitive and somewhat catty. I can feel them staring at me, scrutinizing me during conversation fairly often, trying to put their finger on what is different about me. Luckily, I pass very well...so it's not obvious to women that I am transgender. I think a lot of times, no matter how friendly or funny or kind I am, some women will just always feel uncomfotable around me but not know why that is. They just sense that I am different than them. And of course, I am.
I'm sorry that you're having this difficulty. When you say that they feel that there's something different about you. Do you think it's something about that way you act? And do you think that you have an easier time making female friends after transition? Hopefully when they get to know you better they will forget about the differences and treat you just like their other friends. That's what I find about things that are different, at first they catch my attention then after a while I stop noticing them.
Quote from: Andrea J on November 03, 2012, 08:57:08 AM
I'm sorry that you're having this difficulty. When you say that they feel that there's something different about you. Do you think it's something about that way you act? And do you think that you have an easier time making female friends after transition? Hopefully when they get to know you better they will forget about the differences and treat you just like their other friends. That's what I find about things that are different, at first they catch my attention then after a while I stop noticing them.
No, not necessarily something about my personality. I think it is just because...the fact is, physically, I am male. As MTFs, we can take hormones and have surgeries and attempt to mimic being a physical female...but still. Our underlying bone structure, our voices, our skin texture, the spacing of our facial features, our hairlines...can never truly
become female. I have always felt very lucky to be very passable and feminine in appearance, but at the end of the day my face is still a male's face and when I'm standing around with a group of women - younger women especially are very hyper-conscious of anything "weird" or different - I notice some of the gals sneaking looks at me, or scrutinizing me, trying to put their finger on what makes me a little different. I don't think anyone has ever actually realized that I am transgender, but they do sometimes seem to notice that I'm markedly different. In my experience, they would be much more accepting and "at ease" with someone who was LESS passable, that they could immediately spot as a "lady-who-was-born-a-male," and they'd generally be very warm and sympathetic because then they know what they are dealing with.
But with me, because I pass very well, they think I'm female but can't seem to put their finger on why I'm different, they just sense something different in my face, my body, my voice... Because of this feeling of suspicion or unease that I sometimes get from younger women in my presence, I often seek out friendships with females who are older. They've been around the block and are often much more gracious, tolerant of differences, and less hyper-aware than younger women.
Quote from: Zoey on November 03, 2012, 06:56:14 PM
No, not necessarily something about my personality. I think it is just because...the fact is, physically, I am male. As MTFs, we can take hormones and have surgeries and attempt to mimic being a physical female...but still. Our underlying bone structure, our voices, our skin texture, the spacing of our facial features, our hairlines...can never truly become female. I have always felt very lucky to be very passable and feminine in appearance, but at the end of the day my face is still a male's face and when I'm standing around with a group of women - younger women especially are very hyper-conscious of anything "weird" or different - I notice some of the gals sneaking looks at me, or scrutinizing me, trying to put their finger on what makes me a little different. I don't think anyone has ever actually realized that I am transgender, but they do sometimes seem to notice that I'm markedly different. In my experience, they would be much more accepting and "at ease" with someone who was LESS passable, that they could immediately spot as a "lady-who-was-born-a-male," and they'd generally be very warm and sympathetic because then they know what they are dealing with.
But with me, because I pass very well, they think I'm female but can't seem to put their finger on why I'm different, they just sense something different in my face, my body, my voice... Because of this feeling of suspicion or unease that I sometimes get from younger women in my presence, I often seek out friendships with females who are older. They've been around the block and are often much more gracious, tolerant of differences, and less hyper-aware than younger women.
Zoey.
The reason the other girls are looking at you is the same reason young girls look at all other young girls. (For that matter, the same reason, young boys look at other boys, especially their genitals). They are comparing.
They are as self conscious as you are. That much is human nature.
But, you have a problem that most of them probably don't have, that you had to work hard to get were you are, so you are just a wee bit more self conscious that than them.
How can I be so certain? Quite simple. The points you cited. No matter how much we might associate each and all of them with males, for example, I can tell you now, I've seen each of these in gfemales. I met balding girls, girls with enormous chins, girls with deep voices, girls with muscles and wide shoulders. Most people of my age have. And you will too, once you grow past the completely normal stage of being so self conscious.
As for skin, a few months on HRT will see to that. That is completely chemical and skin is changed more often than you might think.
If you have something on your mind, you may as well say it. If you have a stuffed bra, for example, inside, you will be wondering if anyone notices. No matter how hard you try, it will be an issue. That is human nature.
Most gfemales, stop seriously thinking about their breasts after a few years. That's a few years, not on and off, not a few days, or months, but years.
The point is, FtMs and MtFs have a lot to deal with. But you'll never get through it, you will be continually unhappy and almost certainly end up paranoid, if you spend your time thinking about passing instead of what every gfemale does and thinks about sex.
Female sex where the question is,
Will you take me?, not,
Can I get away with taking you?. (Which is what males do). And forget the modern girl nonsense. Every girl wants to be taken, gently.
Do you get the idea?
It's all attitude. You look fine.
Quote from: TessaM on November 03, 2012, 08:21:31 PM
Zoey, i think your tripping too hard. I have a good hairline, and ill always argue that I am in fact a girl, physically as well. Being female is all in my head. im sure a lot of people would agree with me here.
I agree with you. Though, I don't have the good hairline. I am female.