This is kinda surprising me. Do people really get offended by people holding doors ???
I'm really polite and I tend to hold a lot of doors. People normally smile and thank me, but I have read so many negative things about this on the internet. People say it's sexist and shows men are over women and that women are weak. What? Why? It's like saying men that talks to women just do this because he thinks she is sexy and wants to rape her. I have also seen a lot of ftms be really offended by this (or maybe sad that they don't pass?). I have heard people that refused to use the door because of another person holding it. He what probably just trying to be kind and nothing else. Poor guy :(.
This kinda makes me think if people hate me for holding doors to people sometimes. Why can't people think: That was a kind person holding the door for me :) and not: That sexist pig of a man just tried to hold the door for me! He can burn in hell >:(.
???
It is the normal thing to do, regardless of gender, race or age. We all do it around here for everybody. It is just a matter of common sense and respect.
It is common courtesy here. And if someone is offend by that then they can get glad in the same shorts they got mad in.
I'm so glad you started this topic! I grew up near Boston, almost everyone reflexively looks back, and if anyone at all is even vaguely close, you hold the door. It's just common courtesy, nothing to do with gender at all. Hugs, Devlyn
Here in New Mexico (I think somewhat more casual than the east coast) it is not common for women to open doors for men, at least my observation. I think sometimes people do this and kind of smile like they are doing something off gender. Once I opened the door for a guy with a huge package. He said, "thanks, I didn't know I looked so helpless."
So here I am not offended but I associate it with people IDing me as female. I feel it is a common courtesy and not really a sexist thing.
--Jay
If someone's behind me then I hold the door. I've never considered it a male/female behaviour, or whether it's something that you should do for a male/female. It takes less than three seconds, helps someone else and stops you looking like a selfish douchebag.
Quote from: Alex000000 on December 08, 2012, 07:02:04 PM
If someone's behind me then I hold the door. I've never considered it a male/female behavior, or whether it's something that you should do for a male/female. It takes less than three seconds, helps someone else and stops you looking like a selfish douchebag.
I think this is pretty spot on. But personally, I don't always like having the door held open for me. Like when someone far ahead of me holds open a door and I have to run up after them so they don't have to wait a century for me to dally on up to them. And whenever I go to wawa and go inside to get coffee or whatever, it is a door-holding frenzy. Too many people doing it at the same time, it's weird lol. But otherwise, yeah it just seems like a common courtesy.
I for one hold the door open and wait, regardless of how slow the person is. :)
Anyone who says that door holding is sexist can kick rocks. :P
I'm getting the idea that people who think holding doors isn't normal human behaviour are the vocal minority.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 08, 2012, 05:46:31 PM
I'm so glad you started this topic! I grew up near Boston, almost everyone reflexively looks back, and if anyone at all is even vaguely close, you hold the door. It's just common courtesy, nothing to do with gender at all. Hugs, Devlyn
I am from the same area as you, and I hold the door (and elevator!) for people no matter their gender. Even if I am dressed extremely girly, I always hold it for men or women, especially if they're carrying stuff.
Quote from: muffinpants on December 08, 2012, 07:09:21 PM
I think this is pretty spot on. But personally, I don't always like having the door held open for me. Like when someone far ahead of me holds open a door and I have to run up after them so they don't have to wait a century for me to dally on up to them. And whenever I go to wawa and go inside to get coffee or whatever, it is a door-holding frenzy. Too many people doing it at the same time, it's weird lol. But otherwise, yeah it just seems like a common courtesy.
Yes, I hate having to try to catch up. I think if someone is really far ahead, they should only hold it if your hands are full and would have a hard time opening the door on your own.
I think the whole door issue is one of those leftover "evil feminist" myths.
Men and women hold doors for each other here as a common curtesy. What bugs me though is when I'm on foot and a car approaches and I wave them on and then they persist in sitting there until I have to hustle across when I really wanted to just dwadldle across in my own time. They're just taking it to extremes and rather than making me feel good, I feel irritated at them for being such dips!
While I like to be polite an hold doors open when needed, what irks me are people who jam an arm in the lift doors as it is closing for the third time so they don't have to wait for the next one.
I would like to see lifts with teeth, that would make them think twice. :icon_chainsaw:
I see it nearly every day at work!
It is just plain rude of people, irrespective of gender or anything else. >:(
Quote from: Jenny07 on December 08, 2012, 08:11:41 PM
While I like to be polite an hold doors open when needed, what irks me are people who jam an arm in the lift doors as it is closing for the third time so they don't have to wait for the next one.
I would like to see lifts with teeth, that would make them think twice. :icon_chainsaw:
I see it nearly every day at work!
It is just plain rude of people, irrespective of gender or anything else. >:(
Yeah I don't do that if it's already closing and I am not on it. I hate it when it's already packed and yet people just keep squeezing themselves in. I usually just try to avoid it altogether and just take the stairs, it's good exercise anyway.
I won't post a link as there is a fatality involved, but search "Wheelchair falls down elevator shaft" to see an idiots last action involving doors.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 08, 2012, 08:23:40 PM
I won't post a link as there is a fatality involved, but search "Wheelchair falls down elevator shaft" to see an idiots last action involving doors.
Yeah I remember hearing that awhile back on PRI, I think he was angry because someone didn't hold it for him. You should always hold the lift and get off it if needed for someone who's disabled, but still, some people need to chill out.
I saw that video too. Honestly, if your legs work, why do you need an elevator to go down?
Yikes! That elevator story is horrible.. but why was he so mad to miss an elevator? It only takes like a minute to come back. But now that we are on the subject of elevators, I hate when people hold the elevator up just to go to the second floor. I try not to judge them cus you never know if a person might have a medical condition or not, but I'm guessing most of them don't!
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 08, 2012, 08:23:40 PM
I won't post a link as there is a fatality involved, but search "Wheelchair falls down elevator shaft" to see an idiots last action involving doors.
I just looked at the video on YT and this might sound cold but served him right.
Also, I will admit when I hold a door it is generally for the elderly, pregnant, or disabled. I always hold it for them. Anyone else I won't let it slam in their face as they walk in behind me (I glance back before letting the door go).
I have no problem someone holding, opening or any of the above a door for me. Guys in the south will always open a door for a lady and wait for them to walk in. I always thank them. I will hold a door if someone is fairly close, I won't "make then run" holding it if they are too far away. Plus I normally don't hold a door and wait for a guy. If one is close by I will give it an extra push open for them.
Holding a door for someone whither male or female is just common courtesy imo :) I notice that more folks tend to hold doors for me since I started transitioning
Not sure if that means I pass or not but it is nice to be treated with some kindness and consideration
courtesy is the oil of society (I forgot whose quote that is), but is is true. If we treat people with courtesy and politeness it is not genderism it is human. Sadly a species that seems to be dying to be replaced my louts
As a feminist, what I find offensive is when people cite holding doors (or any other "old-fashioned" gestures) for women as an example of "female privilege."
I have no problem with people holding doors for each other (and I do it as much as I can), as long as it's done regardless of gender, race, age, or whatever.
There is a courtesy of the heart; it is allied to love. From its springs the purest courtesy in the outward behavior.
- Goethe
I hold doors open for anyone,most people still do it were I live
Quote from: ydgmdlu on December 09, 2012, 01:18:29 AM
As a feminist, what I find offensive is when people cite holding doors (or any other "old-fashioned" gestures) for women as an example of "female privilege."
I have no problem with people holding doors for each other (and I do it as much as I can), as long as it's done regardless of gender, race, age, or whatever.
I agree. Courtesy and good manners are genderless. It is a human quality.
That is what is forgotten
There are two ways to hold the door open for somebody. The first which is what I do, start to walk in and hold three door while walking. The second is the way that bothers people, seeing somebody walking, stand at the door holding it open then they walk in ahead of you. I only do the second if it's somebody with a stroller or walker where our would take longer to walk in.
I open doors for anyone and will hold them for someone as well. I just figure its rude to let a door close right in front of someone that wants to go through the same door. It throws some guys off, but they get over it.
holding doors isnt sexist, holding doors only for women is on the other hand something too piss me off.
I used to get the "ladys first" which made me feel like slamming the door into there head.
If people hold doors in general then its fine, I where actually raised by the school that everyone should do so so its kinda stucked with me.
Quote from: Natkat on December 09, 2012, 08:27:15 AM
holding doors isnt sexist, holding doors only for women is on the other hand something too piss me off.
I used to get the "ladys first" which made me feel like slamming the door into there head.
If people hold doors in general then its fine, I where actually raised by the school that everyone should do so so its kinda stucked with me.
That pisses me off too. I'm normally not a violent person, but before I knew I was trans and a guy said that he didn't hit women I would hit him until he hit me back >:-)
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on December 09, 2012, 12:03:45 PM
That pisses me off too. I'm normally not a violent person, but before I knew I was trans and a guy said that he didn't hit women I would hit him until he hit me back >:-)
What was the point of that? Cis men not hitting women is a good thing. As a transguy if a woman did that and I had no choice/couldn't get away I'd probably spank her instead, lol.
Quote from: Simon on December 09, 2012, 01:15:11 PM
What was the point of that? Cis men not hitting women is a good thing. As a transguy if a woman did that and I had no choice/couldn't get away I'd probably spank her instead, lol.
Personally, I think that if someone wants to hit another person, they should be prepared to be hit back. I have never understood the double standard there. Nobody should be hitting anyone else, period.
Well it's strange cause the other day while I was about to get my laser done - a nurse came in and was struggling with the door since both her hands were full. So I helped her with the door.
However, I got this weird feeling that she really did not like - maybe because I was in boy-mode at the time cause the appointment was just after I was leaving from work.
But it still felt strange for someone to object to it since I consider myself to be girl. But even then both guys and girls open doors for people all the time sometimes it's just a common courtesy
Quote from: muffinpants on December 09, 2012, 02:12:02 PM
Personally, I think that if someone wants to hit another person, they should be prepared to be hit back. I have never understood the double standard there. Nobody should be hitting anyone else, period.
I'm afraid that anything I say about that will come off as sexist unintentionally, but here goes anyways. Technically speaking testosterone increases muscle mass and strength. Most men are stronger than the majority of women. That goes to reason that a man shouldn't put his hands on a woman simply because of an increased chance that he will do substantial damage.
Then there's the emotional aspect. I for one hate to see a woman cry. A crying woman can get me to agree to just about anything, lol. I think a lot of women now a days see men treating them as if they are fragile as a sign of disrespect. On the contrary I see it as a sign of respect and celebrating their femininity.
If a guy treats you a little different because you're female then enjoy it. If a guy holds doors, pulls out a chair, opens your car door then just appreciate the fact that he cares enough about you to go that extra step.
I'm one of those people that hates being treated like a delicate flower. I agree with you that a man shouldn't hit a woman - but I also think that a woman should not hit a man. To me, it is not about how much it will hurt or what kind of damage it will inflict (a woman should think about this first if she is planning on hitting someone), it just seems really disrespectful to hit someone in general. I don't ever let my emotions take over to the point where I can't control my actions anymore. That seems irresponsible and it could have unfortunate consequences. If we want to be treated equally in society, we can't expect to receive special treatment and accommodations for our emotional behaviors.
Lol guys I was 12 when this happened :P
@Simon That is just stupid. I really don't get that logic. I even if I was on T I would still be a lot weaker than most women simply because I never work out. I'm pretty sure that most men can control their strength if they fight for fun. Also I was talking about boys in the age of 12. Not much T at this age even thought I will still think the 'I don't hit women' thing is stupid. If it should be something it should be: 'I do not hit anyone.'
@Muffin While I agree you shouldn't hit another person on normal basis it is ok to fight for fun. A lot of guys (and some tomboys I guess) do this. Nothing wrong with that.
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on December 09, 2012, 02:46:25 PM
@Simon That is just stupid. I really don't get that logic. I even if I was on T I would still be a lot weaker than most women simply because I never work out. I'm pretty sure that most men can control their strength if they fight for fun.
I know a lot of transguys are itty bitty so it probably doesn't pertain to you. Testosterone does increase strength. Why else are cis men typically stronger than women?
I know that personally I would never strike a woman regardless of what she did because I could restrain her instead.
Any man who would hit a woman is not a man.
I was taught by the parent who raised me that you hold open doors for people, give up a seat for your elders, etc and that has always stuck with me. I hold the door open for people regardless of sex, age, etc, if I see an elderly person needing a seat I'm in I give it up, or regardless of age if the person is tired I'd do the same. I just feel it's common courtesy, maybe not so common anymore but still. Sometimes I get weird looks when I hold the door open for a cis male, a couple have told me to go in first very sternly it was quite odd. Usually though people either ignore it and go on through or smile/say thanks.
Quote from: Simon on December 09, 2012, 02:54:27 PM
I know a lot of transguys are itty bitty so it probably doesn't pertain to you. Testosterone does increase strength. Why else are cis men typically stronger than women?
I know that personally I would never strike a woman regardless of what she did because I could restrain her instead.
Any man who would hit a woman is not a man.
So if a woman is beating the crap out of you and you fight back then you are not a man :P. You shouldn't hit anyone regardless of gender. I would defend myself no matter if it was against a man or a woman.
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on December 09, 2012, 03:26:03 PM
So if a woman is beating the crap out of you and you fight back then you are not a man :P. You shouldn't hit anyone regardless of gender. I would defend myself no matter if it was against a man or a woman.
No, I wouldn't hit her back. I would restrain her until she calmed down. It would be just as physically demanding to fight her as to restrain her. It's just about options if something does happen and trust me, no matter if you're a trans man or cis man if you did physically fight a woman and the police were called you would be held liable...so there is that too.
Quote from: Simon on December 09, 2012, 03:46:15 PM
No, I wouldn't hit her back. I would restrain her until she calmed down. It would be just as physically demanding to fight her as to restrain her. It's just about options if something does happen and trust me, no matter if you're a trans man or cis man if you did physically fight a woman and the police were called you would be held liable...so there is that too.
The woman would be held liable for domestic violence as well. It's sad that there are so many men that would put up with abuse like that.
I've had a few gals get kinda agro with me in younger days for holding the door before I started transitioning, one tried to push the door to hit me with it :o Most that don't appreciate common courtesy for whatever reason just gave me dirty looks and a few got a bit verbally abusive
Quote from: V M on December 09, 2012, 03:53:41 PM
I've had a few gals get kinda agro with me in younger days for holding the door before I started transitioning, one tried to push the door to hit me with it :o Most that don't appreciate common courtesy for whatever reason just gave me dirty looks and a few got a bit verbally abusive
I experienced that often just after the women's lib movement went militant. I could read those women that would appreciate it and I just let the door slam in the faces of those that probably wouldn't. I'm sure that became the mode for many, since those days many have had an attitude adjustment about the militant attitude, after all like we've been saying it's not a gender issue but one of civility and common sense.
I lived in a small town in a rural area during my teenage years, and holding doors was common courtesy there regardless of the gender of both the doorholder and the person behind. Now that I live in a big city in an industrial area, I rarely see it and when it happens it's always a man holding the door for a woman - and they both always laugh awkwardly about it like "oh look at us playing out old chivalry, aren't we silly!".
I still hold the door to anyone as I learned to do as a teen, but everytime I can see that it surprises them - and they look even more surprised (sometimes pleasantly) when they try to share the "oh we're so silly" laugh with me, and I don't bite and act as though it's perfectly normal. I always find amusing to see how such a natural gesture (to me) messes with their heads, silly urbanites :P
I read this thread this AM and was thinking about it as I did my Vegas walkabout. I watched with special attention who was and who was not holding doors. And because of the huge air conditining that the casino's have Vegas has as huge bunch of big-ass, really heavy doors. Seems to be pretty even all round. People were holding the door for people, and that's with the National Championship Rodeo going on, so lots of countryREAL cowboy boys and girls. The only real exception I noted was that men did go out of there way to make sure to open the doors for the girls who were dressed up for a night on the town. But that's just standard formal dating rules.
Here in the UK (or at least, in my part of it) it's a gender-neutral thing. We glance behind ourselves as we go through the door and if someone else is following, we just hold the door until they catch it.
It's been several decades since I last saw this business of standing holding the door open whilst waiting for someone else to follow through in front of you. That version always seemed sexist and condescending and was almost exclusively practiced by men holding the door for women... so it's just not done here any more. At least, not between strangers.
I must admit I get irritated at people who don't bother to thank you for holding the door for them. They almost seem to think they're entitled to have you provide the service for them. I was always taught that someone holding the door for you is a courtesy and you should thank them for it - but the younger generation isn't being taught that it seems.
The one weird thing I've noticed in the town where I work is that the older generation here not only won't thank you, but they'll positively glare at you for holding the door. I've had that from men & women in this town. It's really weird.
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2012, 03:56:45 AM
The only real exception I noted was that men did go out of there way to make sure to open the doors for the girls who were dressed up for a night on the town. But that's just standard formal dating rules.
When I date women, I always hold the door open for my girl when we're out. But, I don't go out of my way when I date guys. I guess I am sexist. :-\
Quote from: LearnedHand on December 10, 2012, 06:49:18 AM
When I date women, I always hold the door open for my girl when we're out. But, I don't go out of my way when I date guys. I guess I am sexist. :-\
No you're not Taka, don't buy into that sort of mental self labeling. Anyway, most men will prefer to open it themselves unless they're hands are full of packages.
Quote from: Stephe on December 08, 2012, 09:16:26 PM
I have no problem someone holding, opening or any of the above a door for me. Guys in the south will always open a door for a lady and wait for them to walk in. I always thank them. I will hold a door if someone is fairly close, I won't "make then run" holding it if they are too far away. Plus I normally don't hold a door and wait for a guy. If one is close by I will give it an extra push open for them.
Men in the south are the best! By far so gentlemanly. Anytime a guy is near a door they open it and then step back to allow the lady to enter first. I don't think it's sexist, it's just something that has been a learned behavior while they were growing up. If someone is directly behind me I hold the door for them as well; as a polite courtesy. However if a man is walking up to a door at the same time I am, I will allow them to open the door and obviously always give my thanks. & a smile....I think maybe it's just a southern thing.
I think one thing that people need to take into consideration before criticising women who do feel offended (and yes, they do have that right and shouldn't be judged for it, imo) by men holding doors for them, is the fact that men (cismen in particular) do often take a very condescending approach to dealing with women. Very often its not viewed as condescending by the cisman because he's been socialised to believe that it's the "chivalrous" (or whatever modern incarnation you want to call it) thing to do. But it does come from a very condescending tradition. It's the same kind of guys who only seem to address women as "honey," "dear" and "baby" even if they barely know the woman, and really don't take what the woman says seriously at all. They're the kind of guys who go out of their way to practically force women into allowing them to carry things for them because "she might hurt herself" (or more likely his ego). All this because they believe that that's the way things are/the natural order. Having worked in really macho environments, I saw it on a regular basis, to the point where a woman or someone perceived as a woman isn't even asked if they need help...it's assumed.
I remember some days getting off work after having to deal with condescending cismen like that and yeah was pretty much ready to snap at any dude who so much as looked at me. And many women feel that way too. I feel like reacting negatively when women express that is more attacking women for their reaction to a sexist society and feeling frustrated with it than understanding why they feel that way. In that tradition women are always "b*tches" if they come off as angry or upset for a reason you don't understand, lesbians are of course "the worst man-haters of them all" etc. etc. etc. Typical misogynist stuff.
Is door holding in itself sexist? No. Like many other people in this thread have said, I've noticed that where I live it's pretty common courtesy. Whether you're a woman or a man you hold the door for the person behind you. It's not particularly gendered. But I think at the same time we need to recognise the way it can be and still is gendered in certain areas of society and the way its been used to belittle or condescend to women as less capable. Probably when a woman expresses discomfort or even anger about it, there's a lot more going on than just "omg this person opened a door for me." Most likely it's the last straw of her day where she's had men do things that legitimately are belittling and treating her as less capable.
Well, Berserk, that still doesn't make it fair to call a man a misogynist for holding a door open for a lady. No man thinks, "Oh, a lady... I'd bet she can't open this door by herself." It's a sign of respect and consideration, not sexism. As for bearing heavy burdens, there are men who don't like to see women carry very heavy things, not because they're sexist, but because of habit. I think it's more about men being expected to show how macho they are rather than to put down women.
Quote from: DianaP on December 11, 2012, 07:42:04 PM
Well, Berserk, that still doesn't make it fair to call a man a misogynist for holding a door open for a lady. No man thinks, "Oh, a lady... I'd bet she can't open this door by herself." It's a sign of respect and consideration, not sexism. As for bearing heavy burdens, there are men who don't like to see women carry very heavy things, not because they're sexist, but because of habit. I think it's more about men being expected to show how macho they are rather than to put down women.
It's entirely fair to recognise that all cismen are at some level misogynist. All the blame seems to constantly fall on women and angry reactions to sexism in these conversations and
that is definitely not fair in the least. It's like blaming someone for being angry at systemic racism, as far as I'm concerned. This is the product of being socialised in a society that is at its core extremely misogynist.
As far as it "not being sexist" to not like seeing women carry heavy things "because of habit"...that habit is the definition of sexism. Sexism does not need to be conscious. In fact, the danger of misogyny in society is that it is ingrained and not thought about. And yes, men showing how macho they are
is about putting women down. That is the consequence.
Well, I'm not saying that being angry at sexism is bad. I'm just saying that there isn't any sexist intention. Plus, if it's fair to say that all men are at some level misogynistic, then it's also fair to say that all women hate men at some level. Making generalizations like that could be construed as sexism.
The habit I was referring to was the habit of having to overcompensate one's manliness as a male in order to prove your worth as a man. All I'm saying is that men are, at some level, victims of society as well.
Quote from: Berserk on December 11, 2012, 07:49:41 PM
It's entirely fair to recognise that all cismen are at some level misogynist. All the blame seems to constantly fall on women and angry reactions to sexism in these conversations and that is definitely not fair in the least. It's like blaming someone for being angry at systemic racism, as far as I'm concerned. This is the product of being socialised in a society that is at its core extremely misogynist.
As far as it "not being sexist" to not like seeing women carry heavy things "because of habit"...that habit is the definition of sexism. Sexism does not need to be conscious. In fact, the danger of misogyny in society is that it is ingrained and not thought about. And yes, men showing how macho they are is about putting women down. That is the consequence.
Erm, no. Does: 'It's entirely fair to recognise that all ciswomen are at some level Cry babies' sound fair? NO it doesn't. Generalisations are bad either way.
Quote from: DianaP on December 11, 2012, 07:54:17 PM
Well, I'm not saying that being angry at sexism is bad. I'm just saying that there isn't any sexist intention. Plus, if it's fair to say that all men are at some level misogynistic, then it's also fair to say that all women hate men at some level. Making generalizations like that could be construed as sexism.
The habit I was referring to was the habit of having to overcompensate one's manliness as a male in order to prove your worth as a man. All I'm saying is that men are, at some level, victims of society as well.
I would say that the intention is not what makes something sexist or not. Again, the effect of living in a misogynist society (just as the effect of living in a racist or ableist or classist etc society) is that people are not often aware of themselves living within a privileged position. Cismen are not often likely to recognise the degree to which society is misogynist because they were not socialised as female, they have never lived as female, they have never been treated as female by society and known what it's like to be treated as such. As such, many of the actions that they see as "normal" or "habit" stem from misogynist tradition. Door opening is something that has changed a lot today in that most everyone does it as courtesy to other people regardless of gender. But it is still one of those things that does come into play, especially when a person has to spend their whole day being treated like a damsel in distress or someone less capable by men in the work place.
As far as your last statement, I agree that men are also victims of misogyny. Misogyny hurts everyone. But that doesn't change the fact that misogyny centres around the fear of being seen as female/differentiating one's self from the lesser (aka female). The overcompensation of manliness that men feel in society comes from the fear of being deemed feminine or female, because being female is seen as being inferior. Again, just because that's not the direct thought process going on in a cisman's head when he's doing these things, does not mean that its not at its root. For example, the fear by straight-identifying cismen of being seen as gay. They're afraid of being seen as less masculine/male (meaning more feminine/female). That's misogyny, whether intended or not.
Quote from: Sparrowhawke on December 11, 2012, 07:55:01 PM
Erm, no. Does: 'It's entirely fair to recognise that all ciswomen are at some level Cry babies' sound fair? NO it doesn't. Generalisations are bad either way.
Nothing to do with generalisation and everything to do with recognition. If a man is socialised as male in society and enjoys all the benefits of male privilege, they will be misogynist at some level, whether you like it or not. That's the consequence of male privilege. If that person hasn't done anything to unlearn misogyny (just as with unlearning any form of oppression that we've learned as human beings living in oppressive societies) they will remain misogynist. That is reality.
Just as an added example about what I mean within another context. I am a person that would be considered able-bodied in this society. I have the privilege that comes with being able-bodied. I grew up with someone close to me who was differently-abled so I like to think that I am aware to some degree of my privilege and the way simple things of "habit" in this society are discriminatory towards people who are differently-abled. But I would never assume that I still don't have ableist attitudes without intending to and even while trying to be conscious of my privilege. I will always have to work on relearning my own socialisation. Things like always assuming that a person using crutches or a wheel chair or who is blind to some degree needs my help...feeling like I always have to jump to do something like yes, hold a door or help them with something. Or forgetting how inaccessible so many spaces are that I take for granted, forgetting how certain attitudes and spaces can be unwelcoming.
But what I've learned in my attempt to try to be more aware and a better "ally" (for lack of a better word...and I kinda hate that word heh) is realising that there is difference between being ready to help any human being when they need it, and assuming that certain human beings always need help. A differently-abled person may well not like always being treated like they need someone to rush to open a door, practically jump out of their way, constantly ask them if they need help. Instead people should just be open to hearing if any human being needs help while also not making assumptions. If a differently-abled person gets upset with me for trying to help them with things like moving things, opening things etc. and I get "offended" because they were upset...to me that's ignoring my privilege and not listening to how they may feel living in their bodies in a society that treats them the way it does. It's as if I'd be more worried about my right to continue believing what I believe than truly treating them with respect.
Quote from: Berserk on December 11, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
I would say that the intention is not what makes something sexist or not. Again, the effect of living in a misogynist society (just as the effect of living in a racist or ableist or classist etc society) is that people are not often aware of themselves living within a privileged position.
_______
But it is still one of those things that does come into play, especially when a person has to spend their whole day being treated like a damsel in distress or someone less capable by men in the work place.
______
You should really check out the "male privilege" thread. I for one don't think that men are inherently advantaged anymore. I've lived as a male, I always maintain an objective view, and I have not seen any significant discrepancy in male//female treatment.
Frankly, I don't like that whole "privileged people don't see that they're privileged" argument. It's an invalid argument that people only use since it is impossible to argue against it in any other way than to blatantly deny it, making anyone that does look like a bad guy without a rational rebuttal, when in actuality, it's only that there is no rational argument against an irrational point. Take a look at the following scenario:
"You're just being defensive."
"No, I'm not."
"See? You're being defensive."
There's no difference.
__________
Okay, I go to school, volunteer in a hospital, and am part of a volunteer fire department. Let me tell you that none of the females are treated as damsels in distress. They're expected and assumed to be capable of doing their jobs. Now does that mean that men won't help women out every once in awhile? No, it doesn't. Does a man helping a woman mean he views her as inadequate? No, it doesn't.
________
Quote from: Berserk on December 11, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
Nothing to do with generalisation and everything to do with recognition. If a man is socialised as male in society and enjoys all the benefits of male privilege, they will be misogynist at some level, whether you like it or not. That's the consequence of male privilege. If that person hasn't done anything to unlearn misogyny (just as with unlearning any form of oppression that we've learned as human beings living in oppressive societies) they will remain misogynist. That is reality.
Nothing to do with generalisation and everything to do with recognition. Because a woman have estrogen , they will be a cry baby at some level, whether you like it or not. That's the consequence of estrogen. If that person doesn't take testosterone to become a man they will remain a cry baby. That is reality.
You say that all cis male people are misogynists, but then you say they can unlearn it... :-\ You are contradicting yourself.
Hi friends :police:
Time for a time out :) Take a break, take a breath, find something constructive to do with yourselves other than argue about the common courtesy of holding the door for others
Topic temporarily locked
Thank you
V M
Topic unlocked
Please stay on topic, keep the conversation on a discussion level and avoid making posts that could possibly be construed as a personal attack
Thank you
V M