I've struggled with Religion for as long as I can remember. I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home where it was demanded that I attended church four times a week (twice Sunday,Wednesday night,Friday youth group). I attended Christian Summer Camp and at one point I wanted to be a missionary.
As I grew up I developed a interest in studying Theology. I probably know more about different faiths than those who practice them. I've always been analytical and I think that may have been to my detriment. It's hard to believe in a God when the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one. The evidence concludes that despite wishful thinking, hopes, and prayers the sad fact is we are alone.
I desperately want to believe in God. I've tried multiple times to have faith without reasoning. I love the idea of Jesus Christ. I love the stories and to think that God himself came down to die for mankind's salvation is comforting. Being comforting doesn't make it true though.
Anyone else struggle with faith?
Take a look at Reform Judaism
Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2012, 09:12:14 PM
I've struggled with Religion for as long as I can remember. I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home where it was demanded that I attended church four times a week (twice Sunday,Wednesday night,Friday youth group). I attended Christian Summer Camp and at one point I wanted to be a missionary.
As I grew up I developed a interest in studying Theology. I probably know more about different faiths than those who practice them. I've always been analytical and I think that may have been to my detriment. It's hard to believe in a God when the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one. The evidence concludes that despite wishful thinking, hopes, and prayers the sad fact is we are alone.
I desperately want to believe in God. I've tried multiple times to have faith without reasoning. I love the idea of Jesus Christ. I love the stories and to think that God himself came down to die for mankind's salvation is comforting. Being comforting doesn't make it true though.
Anyone else struggle with faith?
Kia Ora Simon,
:eusa_think: "Thought and faith don't mix well" But some religious members here have found a way to blend them, so it would seem.
Metta Zenda :)
Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2012, 09:12:14 PM
The evidence concludes that despite wishful thinking, hopes, and prayers the sad fact is we are alone.
You don't provide your evidence fro there being no god, but if I may respectfully suggest, being a 'We' does kinda suggest we are not quite alone.
I have found myself struggling with my faith, oh yes. When horrible things happen to me, when people tell me my spirit does not exist past the 100 or so years i get to live, or that i have no spirit. But Jesus never said it would be easy, I can't give up on an afterlife and helping to steer people away from evil. I am no Mother Teresa, but I have to do my best.
I would spend this time talking with God directly somewhere quiet and in nature. You may be surprised at what you hear.
I sense you have a good heart Simon, don't give up.
I lost mine a while back and consider myself agnostic.
I grew up catholic but have since seen the light. :angel:
Why even Einstein was agnostic read some of his thoughts on religion if your curious.
Quote from: spacial on December 27, 2012, 05:53:59 AM
You don't provide your evidence fro there being no god, but if I may respectfully suggest, being a 'We' does kinda suggest we are not quite alone.
The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.
If you are going to claim there is a god we cant see, you must prove it, not the other way around.
If someone comes in and says they saw a leprechaun, would you not ask them for proof? Same goes for invisible all powerful creators.
Just like innocent till proven guilty. non-existent until existence is proven.
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on January 04, 2013, 10:40:03 PM
The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.
Proof, we don't need no stinkin' proof - FSM for me all the way.
Watch out though for His Noodly Appendage. :laugh:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2.tfd.com%2Fwiki%2F6%2F6e%2FTouched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage.jpg&hash=1bd7ac85b0cb5312a2782db82055bb6888dc06a8)
-Ani
I think the most important thing you can do on this globe is to find something and live for it. It doesn't have to be religion.
I wouldn't lose sleep over this. Just let whatever happens happen. The important thing is to find something you are passionate about....doesn't matter if it's religious or secular related.
Good luck!
Simon buddy, I went through the same thing. Though I'm not sure I was as 'into it' as it sounds like you were - youth group, theology, and missionary stuff and all. Though I once dreamed about being a missionary too at one point. Or was that a rebel? :D well, there were definitely missionary like elements to it.
And damn, you had to attend church 4 times a week? 4 times? I would have died (especially since I was forced into a little frilly dress for it). Luckily for me, I got by with only 2 + the various church functions or whatever.
Anyway, I was just thinking about this the other day. I had been going through my old blog here and deleted an old thread on religion because it was no longer applicable.
My parents are first-generation believers more or less. They actively chose this as young people. I believe it makes a huge difference between something you are indoctrinated into and a personal choice. I don't actively believe but for my folks, I liken this to a passion. My mother gets something out of praying and praising the lord. My dad gets something out of preaching. There are so many needs and desires that religion serves - the need for community, for meditation, self-reflection, a sense of belonging, hope, comfort, personal values, and various cultural functions. I think for many people, it gives them a reason and support to change for the better.
I think religion can be a very good thing for those who chose it and are enjoying the practice.
I really, really like the idea of Jesus too. I think I clung to Christianity for two main reasons. For one, the whole 'Big Bang and Chimps' theory seemed wholely unpalatable and unromantic to me. The whole idea of some poor carpenter suffering on a cross just for me is cinematic to say the least. So are the big, beautiful historic churchs involved. I always wished our family was Catholic for that reason. Going to confess to some ancient priest hidden behind a door - that sounds kinda hot. (I mean absolutely no offense to any Catholics, but to an outsider it sounds awesome.) And declaring myself a horrible, wretched, undeserving sinner saved by the blood of a crucified god? Sign me up! Really, when you think about it, these concepts are pretty hot. (Hey, Madonna thinks so too.)
I also believe I clung to Christianity because of the promise of seeing loved ones again. I mean dying and instantly being gathered up to some beautiful paradise to reunite with departed loved ones? Who wouldn't like that idea?
It sounds like a cop-out, but I now believe in the power of the human mind, nature, and little else. I still believe there is an order to all this of which we haven't discovered.
I do occasionally pray though, especially with my mother. I don't know why, but I do believe closing your eyes and wishing the best for someone does help. If not, it can't hurt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u036M7p6-ak (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u036M7p6-ak)
Perfect song, sorry! :laugh:
I for one never thought religion was necessary all of that time you spend in church to become a "better person." Is time you can actually spend becoming a better person. Besides, church is boring. I never stayed awake when my parents took me there. :-\
Quote from: Fat Admin on January 04, 2013, 11:42:02 PM
Going to confess to some ancient priest hidden behind a door - that sounds kinda hot. (I mean absolutely no offense to any Catholics, but to an outsider it sounds awesome.)
Being one of those whose parents are believers, and me being the indoctrinated, as a first or second grade kid I didn't appreciate at all having to confess once a week my "sins" to the man in the box:
"Bless me Father for I have sinned. Since my last confession, I have tried on my mother's bra and panties three times and had impure thoughts about wearing one of the Sisters habits." (Wonder what would have happened if the good Father ever heard a confession like that!)
A few Hail Mary's and Our Father's later we're absolved and good to go!
Didn't work for me.
-Ani
QuoteBesides, church is boring.
I dunno some churches are pretty jazzy and soulful, it all depends on where you go.
Quote from: Shawn Sunshine on January 05, 2013, 12:18:45 AM
I dunno some churches are pretty jazzy and soulful, it all depends on where you go.
Well, those churches are fun, I guess. Everybody singing, dancing, and holy ghostin'. However, the one my parents took me to was so... :icon_sleep:
The last church I regularly attended was a non denominational "Mega" church in the area and I was baptized there. Being trans got in the way yet again as to be baptized you have to wear a robe with nothing underneath. I wore my binder and boxers but the whole time I wasn't thinking about what I should have been thinking of. All I could think was "will the pastor feel my binder as he lifts me back up". Kinda ruined the whole experience.
I really think a big issue I have is never feeling like I belong anywhere. Almost like I am constantly watching my every move in a church and feeling like I am hiding something. Like I am a sham in the faith because unless you're going to a church with an open door policy then being trans wouldn't be welcome if they knew. I know if these people who like me now knew then they wouldn't want anything to do with me. It is hurtful and tends to keep me at arms length with anyone...religious or not.
To elaborate a bit, I did leave the Christian faith for many years after I left home and practiced many other faiths but always went back to Christ. I don't really know why that is. I do love the idea of Christ. I love the feeling of security that being a Christian gives me. You know I think a lot of my theological studies have been due to my illness. When you're sick the afterlife and the what if's become a lot more important than they were previously.
Logical me says "where is the proof".
Emotional me says "I really want it to be true".
i dont know if this will mean a lot for you and I certainly do not want you to feel as if I am pressuring you, but I am part of the United Church of Christ. We have quite a few transgender pastors.
Here is one of them:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd2om8tvz4lgco4.cloudfront.net%2Farchive%2Fx313669756%2Fg12c00000000000000094c37ef7bf1f4750ed31b49bf8727eea39a290f6.jpg&hash=86863ffacc18faf24b0335003f750636d7b0e062)
That's Malcolm.
Here is me prepping for Easter last year:
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/543367_379072388799232_1974770424_n.jpg)
Both of our conferences know we are transgender and we were accepted as clergy without hesitation of our gender identity. Laity...you all have it better.
So trust me...there are a lot of churches who will accept you no matter who you are and no matter what questions you have and no matter what you believe
Quote from: Simon on January 05, 2013, 03:27:22 AM
You know I think a lot of my theological studies have been due to my illness. When you're sick the afterlife and the what if's become a lot more important than they were previously.
That makes sense. I can't even imagine what it must be like to face mortality like that. Of course you're going to be preoocupied with all kinds of heavy, meaning of life issues.
QuoteI love the feeling of security that being a Christian gives me.
Since you're having a difficult time believing, I wonder if there could be something else that could give you the same security. Would you be open to something new?
Like I said in my earlier post, regardless of beliefs, I do still think church serves some very important functions and human needs. I hope you find one where you're comfortable.
And I really hope you find that comfort and security you need, I really do.
Quote from: Annah on January 05, 2013, 03:40:59 AM
i dont know if this will mean a lot for you and I certainly do not want you to feel as if I am pressuring you, but I am part of the United Church of Christ. We have quite a few transgender pastors.
Thank you for sharing that. I will have to see what the UCC here believes. That is one of the few Church's I have never attended but I have heard the feelings they have on LGBT issues varies by location. Here in the South we have Metropolitan Community Churches. I went to one a few times but didn't like the "feel" of it. Not that there was anything wrong with it...it was too short for me. Almost like getting dressed and going took longer than the actual service, lol.
Quote from: Fat Admin on January 05, 2013, 03:55:08 AM
That makes sense. I can't even imagine what it must be like to face mortality like that. Of course you're going to be preoocupied with all kinds of heavy, meaning of life issues.
Oh yeah, there was a time when I didn't know if I would be alive right now. Before they found what illness I have they were going to remove both of my kidneys. In 2007 all of this started with my illness and everything fell apart. Mainly due to multiple surgeries. The hysto I just had should be my last one for awhile. The joy of getting it done was over shadowed by the risk of the tumor being cancerous. Thank God it was benign. Now I can breathe easy for a little while. I have brain and spinal cord tumors that are currently stable and have been for 4 years. I have cancer in my right kidney but it is being stable and is small (1.1 cm and they won't do anything about it until it is 3.0 cm). I have a surgeon writing me a letter saying I can have my top surgery. We're saving up but it might be the end of next year until I can afford it. Still it'll be so awesome to have it and know the next time I go under the knife for something due to my illness I won't feel like a freak as much. The doctors always marvel how quick I get out of bed after surgery. It's so I can get a binder on and feel normal.
I don't really think about dying now. Now I'm stuck at a crossroads of what to do next. I thought about dying for so long that I forgot how to live. I am numb. I like to joke around with people because that is the only way I know how to relate. I care about people but I don't understand how to relate to anyone. Every friend I had quit coming around after I first got sick. Then the phone calls stopped. I think everyone thought I was going to die so they separated themselves from me...but here I am still alive and healthier than when I started out. Just a lot more alone.
"Every friend I had quit coming around after I first got sick. Then the phone calls stopped. I think everyone thought I was going to die so they separated themselves from me...but here I am still alive and healthier than when I started out. Just a lot more alone."
No you are not, you now have people who love you and appreciate you.
I have said before and no doubt will in the future state that I have no gods.
My life is in my hands and I take that responsibility. There is no entity to look after me.
I watched a child die on Boxing day. His parents prayed. I used my skills, they were not enough. I lost, nature won.
If there was a god I would strangle the bastard.
My apologies to those who believe
Cindy
Quote from: MaidofOrleans on January 04, 2013, 10:40:03 PM
The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.
If you are going to claim there is a god we cant see, you must prove it, not the other way around.
If someone comes in and says they saw a leprechaun, would you not ask them for proof? Same goes for invisible all powerful creators.
Just like innocent till proven guilty. non-existent until existence is proven.
Yes, I appreciate your point.
I was attempting to demonstrate that sicne it is we talking together, we cannot be alone. Unless you mean 'we' as a group. Though that would also need to include all life on earth. And a denial of any life anywhere in the universe.
I was being a littel obtuse and I do apologise.
I also understand your point about burdon of proof, but if I may, I will agree, the burdon lies with the one making the claim.
Again, I'm very sorry if I came across as a little unhelpful. I had good intentions when I wrote the point.
Quote from: Cindy James on January 05, 2013, 04:45:28 AM
If there was a god I would strangle the bastard.
If there was a god, I would kick him/her in the crotch. ::)
Well I already kicked Satan in the crotch, but it hurt like HELL!
Quote from: Annah on January 05, 2013, 03:40:59 AM
i dont know if this will mean a lot for you and I certainly do not want you to feel as if I am pressuring you, but I am part of the United Church of Christ. We have quite a few transgender pastors.
Here is one of them:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd2om8tvz4lgco4.cloudfront.net%2Farchive%2Fx313669756%2Fg12c00000000000000094c37ef7bf1f4750ed31b49bf8727eea39a290f6.jpg&hash=86863ffacc18faf24b0335003f750636d7b0e062)
That's Malcolm.
Here is me prepping for Easter last year:
(https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/543367_379072388799232_1974770424_n.jpg)
Both of our conferences know we are transgender and we were accepted as clergy without hesitation of our gender identity. Laity...you all have it better.
So trust me...there are a lot of churches who will accept you no matter who you are and no matter what questions you have and no matter what you believe
I agree with Annah on this one, the UCC Church to me is the friendliest and most open about accepting all members of the community. I did go to a MCC church once myself, it was nice, but i felt better being with a mix of people and I just like the services better at UCC
Whatever you do, don't let bad experiences and crap that other humans to do you keep you away from having fellowship.
Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2012, 09:12:14 PM
I've struggled with Religion for as long as I can remember. I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home where it was demanded that I attended church four times a week (twice Sunday,Wednesday night,Friday youth group). I attended Christian Summer Camp and at one point I wanted to be a missionary.
As I grew up I developed a interest in studying Theology. I probably know more about different faiths than those who practice them. I've always been analytical and I think that may have been to my detriment. It's hard to believe in a God when the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one. The evidence concludes that despite wishful thinking, hopes, and prayers the sad fact is we are alone.
I desperately want to believe in God. I've tried multiple times to have faith without reasoning. I love the idea of Jesus Christ. I love the stories and to think that God himself came down to die for mankind's salvation is comforting. Being comforting doesn't make it true though.
Anyone else struggle with faith?
Same path I followed, sort of. My family was a mix of Catholic and Methodist and I spent a LOT of time at church. I also wanted to be a pastor and liked research, so I did a lot of research into my own religion. Then I started looking for the origin of it and read other religions. Next thing I knew, I started identifying as agnostic and eventually atheist, although I think agnostic is a better term for me. I went to the extreme for no other reason than because I was tired of people always trying to evangelize me. I definitely still carry a lot of beliefs that came from Christianity and I'm probably one of the few people that has actually read the entire bible more than once, but I don't seem to really believe it as more than a moral compass anymore. I wish I did.
Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2012, 09:12:14 PM
I've struggled with Religion for as long as I can remember. I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home where it was demanded that I attended church four times a week (twice Sunday,Wednesday night,Friday youth group). I attended Christian Summer Camp and at one point I wanted to be a missionary.
As I grew up I developed a interest in studying Theology. I probably know more about different faiths than those who practice them. I've always been analytical and I think that may have been to my detriment. It's hard to believe in a God when the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one. The evidence concludes that despite wishful thinking, hopes, and prayers the sad fact is we are alone.
I desperately want to believe in God. I've tried multiple times to have faith without reasoning. I love the idea of Jesus Christ. I love the stories and to think that God himself came down to die for mankind's salvation is comforting. Being comforting doesn't make it true though.
Anyone else struggle with faith?
This is a little late but I'm somewhat struggling with a similar issue right now. I was raised up non-denominational (but closer to Pentacostal) and I was sort of the odd person out in the church and never really felt the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, felt the need to jump around, cry etc. I was more like a brick wall, I'm even one of the Sunday school teachers. I was raised up Christian and had so many questions about it that went unanswered and for the last few days I've been lurking at an ex Christian forum. I shouldn't have done that but after reading a lot of their reasons for why they went atheist, I feel my faith wavering and slowly crumbling but I so really want to keep it when they see the evidence pointing to otherwise. I'm almost afraid to start searching deeper because of this fear. I start to question if I've ever really heard from God or if that was just me. I asked him to give me a sign to confirm his existance this morning and nothing happened. However, I just can't accept that there is no God. Like Admin said, the thought of a capenter dying on the cross for me just sounds very more cinematic as opposed to some explosion that made the world (though these two events are unrelated).
I don't know.
Quote from: Malachite on April 20, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
for the last few days I've been lurking at an ex Christian forum. I shouldn't have done that but after reading a lot of their reasons for why they went atheist, I feel my faith wavering and slowly crumbling but I so really want to keep it when they see the evidence pointing to otherwise. I'm almost afraid to start searching deeper because of this fear.
I understand where you're coming from. I've been on a search for a long time and continue to be on one. I hope you find what you're looking for. I've just come to the point where I believe in Christ but I take God in the Old Testament with a grain of salt. The Bible has been changed so many times over the past two centuries that I'm confident that it's not the indelible word of God.
When the mood strikes you to investigate the topic further read all you can. Don't take the fanatical Christian or the unshakeable Atheist's word for it. Both will try to persuade you to their side, but reading and dissecting their views can be helpful.
Simon, did you mean centuries or millennia?
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on April 20, 2013, 03:24:21 PM
Simon, did you mean centuries or millennia?
Millenniums, I'm sure he will understand what I meant.
Quote from: Malachite on April 20, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
This is a little late but I'm somewhat struggling with a similar issue right now. I was raised up non-denominational (but closer to Pentacostal) and I was sort of the odd person out in the church and never really felt the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, felt the need to jump around, cry etc. I was more like a brick wall, I'm even one of the Sunday school teachers. I was raised up Christian and had so many questions about it that went unanswered and for the last few days I've been lurking at an ex Christian forum. I shouldn't have done that but after reading a lot of their reasons for why they went atheist, I feel my faith wavering and slowly crumbling but I so really want to keep it when they see the evidence pointing to otherwise. I'm almost afraid to start searching deeper because of this fear. I start to question if I've ever really heard from God or if that was just me. I asked him to give me a sign to confirm his existance this morning and nothing happened. However, I just can't accept that there is no God. Like Admin said, the thought of a capenter dying on the cross for me just sounds very more cinematic as opposed to some explosion that made the world (though these two events are unrelated).
I don't know.
I think reading wholesome books like Pastor Rob Bell's "
Love Wins" or Bishop Spong's "
Why Christianity Must Change or Die" may help in your journey. Try going to an open-minded church, like the United Church of Christ (UCC), or Disciples of Christ (DoC) may also help.
I grew up to Christian parents (Catholicism specifically), whose parents were Christian, whose parents... you get the point, lol. But I myself am exploring a good church group, and I am still looking. At the moment I am in love with a particular Anglo-Catholic (Anglican) parish that is also socially liberal (queer friendly, female friendly, lower class friendly), but theologically conservative. I am also discerning with the Quakers, and outside Christianity, Unitarian Universalism. I've studied many religions for years.
I consider myself a rationalist and yet religious. In terms of the Bible, I take it 'spiritually'. I am an agnostic theist. I believe in theistic evolution. I don't believe in the Bible as divinely inspired, but that the New Testament is a written record of experiences of the Christ-idea, and grappling with God. In terms of the Crucifixion of Christ, I take the moral influence view of the atonement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_%28moral_influence_view%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_%28moral_influence_view%29). Christ died to show us that the ultimate religion is to love God, and to love others as ourselves, and to give our lives to help others. His life, ministry, death and resurrection become sacramental mysteries in which we experience death of our ego and self, to be reborn in life and renewal.
The idea that my salvation hangs upon literally believing in blood-appeasement is personally abhorent to me.
Feel free to send me a PM!
You shouldn't feel like you have to believe in God.
As for me, I don't believe in made up fairytales, creatures, imaginary characters, including god. They are inventions of human kind. You believe, cause it feels good. Yet, that doesn't good enough make god exist! Anyway, choice is yours.
By the way, since I was born in Turkey I raised in a Muslim family. ;D
Quote from: ThetisnFurter on April 21, 2013, 02:11:09 AM
You shouldn't feel like you have to believe in God.
As for me, I don't believe in made up fairytales, creatures, imaginary characters, including god. They are inventions of human kind. You believe, cause it feels good. Yet, that doesn't good enough make god exist! Anyway, choice is yours.
By the way, since I was born in Turkey I raised in a Muslim family. ;D
I also agree; it does not matter whether you believe in God or not, as long as you are a good person, do good unto others, and that you try your best in this life. :angel:
Thanks everyone. I've pretty much came to a similar point like yours Simon, where I believe in Jesus (more for security reasons than anything), but I try to keep an open mind concerning the Bible, especially the old testament, since it's pretty much a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. I find that being more of a liberal Christian helps me find somewhat of a balance between the fanatical Christian and the unshakable Atheist. I do hope that I continue to evole in my beliefs and interpretations though.
Quote from: Rahel on April 21, 2013, 01:59:29 AM
Try going to an open-minded church, like the United Church of Christ (UCC), or Disciples of Christ (DoC) may also help.
I can't drive just yet so I'm pretty much stuck at the current non-affirming church I go to, but I have been looking more into some UCC churches to view their sermons on Youtube. :) It does get a bit confusing when it comes to finding a good sermon since there are different churches.
I had a very strong Christian faith as a child, I used to try and convince my friends in the truth of Christ etc.. etc.. and used to really feel in my heart there was a God and such. The process of losing all that does hurt and there are times that I wish I could have that certainty and solidity even now. To lose a religion is to lose something important.
The fact is, that life makes less sense to me if there was a God, having no God explains the world much better. The belief in God causes more confusion then not. However, there is a little bit of me inside that knows if I were to change my mind, if things did start to make sense with a God then the whole religious milieu and God himself would be still there to go back to.
That said, I could not go back to it all as I am now and now my lack of belief in God is solid, I have been able to retrn to the Bible and appreciate in ways I never could as a believer.
You said you studied religions right? You also said that proof shows that there is no god? You want proof look into Coran and Bible both talk about the birth of Jesus Christ as a major impact. If god doesn't exist and Jesus Christ was just another guy. Why would his birth, not talking about what he did just talking about the birth, be such a huge deal that these two rival religions would both write about the birth of the savior? I don't believe the proof of gods existence is in any religion but in Religion as a whole. Where is the proof that god didn't exist? Big bang theory? What caused the explosion of the big bang? where did the material come from to create the big bang? What caused the stars to form from the big bang? What caused carbon to evolve into organisms? Science doesn't disprove God just the better understanding to the complex prosess involved in Genesis.
40 years ago this month I had a meltdown ,I prayed for someone who could understand me.
4 days later a warm caring human being called me on the phone, I asked what made you call, she told me she did not know ,something just told her to.We had never met before but I described
her perfectly. Our souls have been locked together ever since, even when we were apart.
I BELIEVE and nothing will ever change that!
I see where many question and many do not believe. That is their choice.
Some have asked God for a miracle or some other proof that he exists.
The Lord told Thomas that because he had seen he believed but blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe. They are blessed because faith is the substance of things not seen. Anyone can believe that which they see.
I personally do believe and believed before I saw any miracles. Those came later. The times I was healed of various issues came after decades of believing. Sort of like the impotent man around 40 years of age if memory serves me correctly.
If anyone is searching for the Lord it might do well to remember that it is written that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him and it is written again you shall seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart. Not impatient or half heartedly.
I hope those seeking the Lord find him in due season. I hope they find all they need in him as the early saints did who went through hell on earth and yet refused to be delivered or comforted counting this world unworthy of Christ our Lord.
May God bless.
I spent my youth not thinking about religion. As a young adult I thought those who needed a "god" were weak and just needed something to lean on.
At 30 the Lord came to me and I believed. I have been a Christian for 38 years now and my faith is as strong today as it was at the beginning.
Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2012, 09:12:14 PM
I've struggled with Religion for as long as I can remember. I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home where it was demanded that I attended church four times a week (twice Sunday,Wednesday night,Friday youth group). I attended Christian Summer Camp and at one point I wanted to be a missionary.
As I grew up I developed a interest in studying Theology. I probably know more about different faiths than those who practice them. I've always been analytical and I think that may have been to my detriment. It's hard to believe in a God when the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one. The evidence concludes that despite wishful thinking, hopes, and prayers the sad fact is we are alone.
I desperately want to believe in God. I've tried multiple times to have faith without reasoning. I love the idea of Jesus Christ. I love the stories and to think that God himself came down to die for mankind's salvation is comforting. Being comforting doesn't make it true though.
Anyone else struggle with faith?
I have been facing a similar issue for the past several years myself. I was raised in a conservative baptist christian home and attended 2 christian colleges and spent several years planning missions trips to various countries. I also went on several youth mission trips in HS. At the first school I attended in Pensacola, some friends and I were told by several faculty members that a person could not be saved if they were not 'led to Christ' by someone using the KJV. At my 2nd school in Clearwater, I attended a class called Modern Religion which was an overview on how the bible is mutable (changing, or manipulated by men). Another one I attended was about cults but that class had termed many legitimate religions like Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, and Buddhism as cults. It also touched on some actual cults (some of the destructive ones) and I personally began to question my own faith.
I have had a difficult time trying to justify Christianity to myself, but have found myself incapable of viewing a world that does not have a higher power. I have since found myself to be most comfortable within the Pagan/Wiccan belief system. Basically the places I went to be taught how to share my parent's faith with others instead showed me how far modern Christianity has moved away from the ideals taught in their own holy book.
That being said, I have had several friends who I believe have shown the essence of Christianity. They live it and are not judgmental towards others, and they don't flaunt their faith or push it on others. they are honestly good and gentle people that if I was to compare them to a historical figure I would equate them with Jesus. The problem is that I have only ever met 5 people like this, and I myself cannot force myself to follow that life. I cannot believe something that
I believe has been so warped by so many people. I feel myself drawn to the earth and nature. I try to seek the truth about God in the world around me and I worship outside, in nature where I feel my most connected to God, in whatever form God chooses to reveal to me.
I hope that you have been able to work through your struggle, though I know I have not offered any help I do hope that there may be something in this that you find useful or even interesting.
Quote from: chefset28 on June 19, 2013, 01:03:28 AM
some friends and I were told by several faculty members that a person could not be saved if they were not 'led to Christ' by someone using the KJV.
It's funny you mention that, because one of the pastors I follow on Youtube has a clip of his sermon that is titled "Pastors who preach from the NIV AREN'T SAVED!" lol This guy is a KJV Onlyist and he actually rejects other Bibles as the SSV, NKJV, NWT, etc.
Quote from: Malachite on June 19, 2013, 01:59:45 AM
It's funny you mention that, because one of the pastors I follow on Youtube has a clip of his sermon that is titled "Pastors who preach from the NIV AREN'T SAVED!" lol This guy is a KJV Onlyist and he actually rejects other Bibles as the SSV, NKJV, NWT, etc.
Lawl! KJV-onlyists are crazy. I love and use the KJV, but I certainly don't worship it! I prefer the NRSV myself for study!
Malachite,
I saw where you studied the start of the church you attended and study drew you away rather than closer if I was reading these posts correctly. The same with some others.
I too found things wrong with doctrines of various churches I visited. I too was wondering about Christianity at times.
Rather than give up I would hope that some who are wondering would try what I did and see if it helps them. Remembering faith is the substance of things not seen.
Separate yourself unto the Lord and pray using a King James Bible.
By separate yourself I do not mean hide and quit your job or anything foolish. What I do mean is get the issues clouding your faith and judgment out of the equation. Get being transgender out of it. Get denominations out of it. Direct your focus fully on who the Lord is and what glorifies him. What his thoughts are and what pleases him. Sort of how John the Baptist said he must increase and I must decrease.
Pray and ask the Lord for wisdom and knowledge and understanding of his word in all that he wants you to know. Keep all of the other issues out of your prayers. Ask him to lead you through his word and direct all you do as well as think. As written the footsteps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord and he delighteth in his way.
Remember to keep transgender, church, denomination, male and female out of it. Keep your prayers fully on the Lord revealing who he is, what he fulfilled, how he is glorified and how his word applies unto you.
Above all be diligent and longsuffering. Scripture shows many didn't get help right of way. I'll use one individual for an example. It took him over 40 years to be healed. I am not referring to healing but just using this to show we have to be diligent for however long the Lord deems necessary.
As you go through scriptures that the Lord shows you or those which (for lack of better terminology) seem to stand out meditate on them. If you are truly honest and seeking the Lord's glory and guidance above all else and any person do not be surprised if you see things which many others do not see. Many times when you see things in the word of God that others don't see which glorify Christ (not yourself or any person) such as deeper revelations of who he is from the laws and prophets it strengthens your faith. Many times these things are revealed by the Holy Ghost and man's natural mind cannot pick them out.
Also, if you do not have it yet another thing to make a first priority is praying about receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues. This is something that the early church had in which the Spirit of God prays for things we as humans do not know to pray for. Things like deeper revelations of who the Lord is from his word or illnesses coming down the road that we don't know about but the Lord does. Try to make this a priority.
Lastly, I won't debate any of this as I don't have time. I already know that some will mock and some disagree. That is why I said do this and take your focus off everything except who the Lord is and the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It isn't important for someone trying to hang onto their faith to seek out pro transgender or non transgender scripture or what church to attend. Naturally anything in favor such as an affirming church would be helpful but don't take your focus off building your faith. If you do it the way the Lord wants (not any biased man or church) the Lord will help you.
I wish you well with your faith.
If you have any questions send me a private message.
I guarantee you that even though I am cisgender I will not try to discourage you or "convert" you. I am more worried about the faith of people than their gender issues.
Take care.
Del
Quote from: Simon on December 26, 2012, 09:12:14 PM
I've struggled with Religion for as long as I can remember. I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home where it was demanded that I attended church four times a week (twice Sunday,Wednesday night,Friday youth group). I attended Christian Summer Camp and at one point I wanted to be a missionary.
As I grew up I developed a interest in studying Theology. I probably know more about different faiths than those who practice them. I've always been analytical and I think that may have been to my detriment. It's hard to believe in a God when the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one. The evidence concludes that despite wishful thinking, hopes, and prayers the sad fact is we are alone.
I desperately want to believe in God. I've tried multiple times to have faith without reasoning. I love the idea of Jesus Christ. I love the stories and to think that God himself came down to die for mankind's salvation is comforting. Being comforting doesn't make it true though.
Anyone else struggle with faith?
I've had two struggles with faith. One is about the struggle to believe, but the other, the struggle to disbelieve.
The struggle to believe was about being gay, and implications for the faith I was born into--Greek Orthodox. I didn't set foot in a church for 15 years, when I turned my back on the faith I was born into. The social exclusion was brutal as a kid, angering as a young buck, and forgiven as a man.
The second struggle was about the struggle to disbelieve--fear. 'Hell', 'Lilith--are you possessed by' they cried, 'for you are gay!' Abomination, Leviticus and all that. 'Repent!' For this one, I've found the Faith to let go of the faith I was born into.
But - I've found a pathway and return to a Faith. That follows by the core ideology of eclecticism and celebration of difference that has been about accepting myself, others, other cultures, religions and minority groups. Celebration of Diversity, for me, means accepting that human beings tend to look to 'a' spirituality in a higher realm or experience of life. Interfaith ideologies share notions about Love at their core. I have a place for Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, The Tora (the Prophet to come) and all of them! As this is the Christian section, a brief word on Jesus, that social dissident who loved and stood up for and defended the then minority groups. Mary Magdalene, the poor, lepers. A man who gave his life for others. God's son and means for us to know self-sacrifice. Isn't that what we hope for as minority groups?
All those things are aspirations and are beautiful. I just quoted one of my favourites, in the teachings of Jesus:
Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at herWhether or not a Christian, they're beautiful words. I summon them when I'm feeling alone, maligned, or judged, or when tempted to judge others.
Cheers
stav
Quote from: Del on June 25, 2013, 03:20:57 AM
Malachite,
I saw where you studied the start of the church you attended and study drew you away rather than closer if I was reading these posts correctly. The same with some others.
I too found things wrong with doctrines of various churches I visited. I too was wondering about Christianity at times.
Rather than give up I would hope that some who are wondering would try what I did and see if it helps them. Remembering faith is the substance of things not seen.
Separate yourself unto the Lord and pray using a King James Bible.
By separate yourself I do not mean hide and quit your job or anything foolish. What I do mean is get the issues clouding your faith and judgment out of the equation. Get being transgender out of it. Get denominations out of it. Direct your focus fully on who the Lord is and what glorifies him. What his thoughts are and what pleases him. Sort of how John the Baptist said he must increase and I must decrease.
Pray and ask the Lord for wisdom and knowledge and understanding of his word in all that he wants you to know. Keep all of the other issues out of your prayers. Ask him to lead you through his word and direct all you do as well as think. As written the footsteps of a righteous man are ordered of the Lord and he delighteth in his way.
Remember to keep transgender, church, denomination, male and female out of it. Keep your prayers fully on the Lord revealing who he is, what he fulfilled, how he is glorified and how his word applies unto you.
Above all be diligent and longsuffering. Scripture shows many didn't get help right of way. I'll use one individual for an example. It took him over 40 years to be healed. I am not referring to healing but just using this to show we have to be diligent for however long the Lord deems necessary.
As you go through scriptures that the Lord shows you or those which (for lack of better terminology) seem to stand out meditate on them. If you are truly honest and seeking the Lord's glory and guidance above all else and any person do not be surprised if you see things which many others do not see. Many times when you see things in the word of God that others don't see which glorify Christ (not yourself or any person) such as deeper revelations of who he is from the laws and prophets it strengthens your faith. Many times these things are revealed by the Holy Ghost and man's natural mind cannot pick them out.
Also, if you do not have it yet another thing to make a first priority is praying about receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of speaking in tongues. This is something that the early church had in which the Spirit of God prays for things we as humans do not know to pray for. Things like deeper revelations of who the Lord is from his word or illnesses coming down the road that we don't know about but the Lord does. Try to make this a priority.
Lastly, I won't debate any of this as I don't have time. I already know that some will mock and some disagree. That is why I said do this and take your focus off everything except who the Lord is and the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It isn't important for someone trying to hang onto their faith to seek out pro transgender or non transgender scripture or what church to attend. Naturally anything in favor such as an affirming church would be helpful but don't take your focus off building your faith. If you do it the way the Lord wants (not any biased man or church) the Lord will help you.
I wish you well with your faith.
If you have any questions send me a private message.
I guarantee you that even though I am cisgender I will not try to discourage you or "convert" you. I am more worried about the faith of people than their gender issues.
Take care.
Del
Del,
Thank you for your comments. Only five months ago, I would have flicked them aside, without 'reading the message between the words' by reading the words without seeing a light beyond them. Jesus speaks through you--it's the blazing life in your words. Your message is beautiful because you just want to reach out and call a fellow home to Spirit and Love of Spirit. I have developed an appreciation of some Biblical materials, from an ancient tome that holds so much and so rich wisdom. Much of the wisdom has stood the test of time. May I share my story with you about how I found my way back to Faith.
When I was in great danger, in fact, when my life was in danger, and the reason for my hospitalisation after I was sexually violated by a man with dead eyes, and who could not see beyond himself--and 'I' with no love or sense of others--and also why I need genital reconstruction surgery, the only thing that saved me was Faith in a greater Order--in fact, Faith in the Spirit of Jesus--that was and is self-sacrifice, I guess. By 'saved' -- I mean, had I not been able to access that kind of Faith, I might well have given up. What was tested was belief in love and faith in human beings. I'm not sure I'd still be alive. For how can you have a will to live if you've lost faith in your fellows and feel so very alone and afraid of others.
I never, for one moment, during that terrible ordeal, felt abandoned by the Spirit of Jesus. Was that a
literal Spirit or a
Faith in that kind of Self Sacrifice. The atheists would say the latter, you the former. And I say the distinction is irrelevant. Jesus--was the experience--of a love so great, and of a forgiveness so vast, that I was able to get through the ordeal and without much trauma. I lost two or three litres of blood--about half--and while I was alone as I bled, I was not alone, and I was with my Faith. There was a moment I thought "oh my God, I'm not going to see my loved ones again". I prayed. A simple prayer "God--if I don't get to see anyone again--let love win. Please let love win". As I recall the prayer, I feel the same force invigorate me and flood my heart which was the Force with me and that sustained me during my trial. Great beauty has come from tragedy for that simple Faith.
Its funny to me that an all poweferul god cannot be kind to everyone, whether they believe or not. Its just odd that he would require you to praise him in order for him to save you. How is he benefiting from people praising him. Maybe he has really bad self confidence or he's just a totaljerk.
God is kind to everyone, He offered a free way to salvation, its up to us to accept.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on July 29, 2013, 09:54:31 AM
God is kind to everyone, He offered a free way to salvation, its up to us to accept.
So if I was a child raised without the knolowdge of the existence of religion, I would not reach "salvation" ? I do not mean to offend anybody and impose my beliefs but come on, even if you are a believer, does none of this stuff bother you?
Sorry Amders, I'm not getting into that fight.
Quote from: Sarah Louise on July 29, 2013, 10:17:52 AM
Sorry Amders, I'm not getting into that fight.
That's okay. I respect your opinion. Have a nice day!
Quote from: AMDERS on July 29, 2013, 10:16:41 AM
So if I was a child raised without the knolowdge of the existence of religion, I would not reach "salvation" ? I do not mean to offend anybody and impose my beliefs but come on, even if you are a believer, does none of this stuff bother you?
Hi Ambers,
No, what the poster said doesn't bother me at all. I love Christians who connect with Divine Love through their relationship with creation, and Jesus. I was reared in a Christian family, then abandoned my faith as a hurt, rejected homosexual ejected from the Church. I found spirituality in a broader context. I found interfaith ministry, where all Faiths stand, so beautifully, and amazingly bright, next to each other.
And I found that when I placed them all juxtaposed, in that way, there was a great beauty in the shared feature of all religions--love. The teachings of Jesus remain timeless, awesomely beautiful wisdom. They're about self-sacrifice and love. Whether or not one is 'religious', some of the wisdom, at least, of the ancient texts, the Bible, Koran, Torah - the three monotheistic religions - remain inspiring and are wonderful parables about human nature.
I've also found that ideas about faith are truly individualistic. As such, I respect what you have written, and appreciate what you have said. You don't offend my spirituality because your views on spirituality are just as beautiful to me. 'Interfaith' dialogue for me means 'take you as you come and let that person be'. Love all. Or do my best to. Do my best to forgive quickly and fully. Return to states of Grace, humility and appreciation as often as I can. And - Awe - the sudden wide eyed flashes of wonder at the vastness of existence. when you look at the starry sky, have a flash of existence where you suddenly realise how small we all are--a smudge on the face of a Universe so majestically vast that the experience blows past the boundaries of self. And, have Faith in a higher order of existence beyond my capacity to every 'know' with my mind. They are all Christian and human states and I believe states in other religions.
Sort of like 'the common thread in all humanity'. I have an atheist friend. He doesn't believe in anything other than science. So, how I meet him is by talking about how he feels when he sees science bust the boundaries of 'knowing'. Awe, of course, as he looks a the Hubble through the eyes of the scientist. So, he and I both know awe. And he doesn't call that 'God', but I do, but really, as I say to him, 'Sam, what's the difference--I see a flash of God when I look at a space through the Hubble and you see Awe, but what's the difference'. He says 'yeah but I don't believe in a "teleological God stav, who said 'let there be light' and who existed before time", and I say "if God is
all there is, the 'all of all things', then time runs backwards as it does forwards, and timelessness, as a concept is needed to sustain an argument about time and 'beginnings'. I'm not going to speak to that, Sam, because I just don't know what 'all there is' really means. What I do know of science though is that each time it finds a new frontier, that boundary is finite. The boundary will move. I suspect, infinitely.'
Infinite is a long way away from anything I can understand.
Usually by then, he and I start laughing or pondering each other's worlds from the place where we join. Awe is good enough for me.
Nice to meet you,
kind regards
stav
Quote from: AMDERS on July 29, 2013, 10:16:41 AM
So if I was a child raised without the knolowdge of the existence of religion, I would not reach "salvation" ? I do not mean to offend anybody and impose my beliefs but come on, even if you are a believer, does none of this stuff bother you?
Yes, it does. I believe in a Creator but not an intervening entity. If God was to intervene in every little thing in which we pray for, why do we have freewill in order to make our own choices? Why not let God call all the shots and be our puppetmaster? As for the salvation part and not having knowledge of religion though. I think we tend to lower God to our level of thinking way too often when we should be trying to raise our way of thinking to higher levels. I don't/can't understand God's mind or fully grasp the life after death issue, why children die and killers get off scott free, but that is breakdown of the human condition. What is a physical death when the Spirit will possibly live on and our physical bodies go back to being part of this planet?
Say Hypothetically that I am God. I create a number of Spirits (mankind) these spirits need a physical body to experience a material existance and through evolution nature, which I created the laws of such, allows for those bodies. What will be my main concern? The physical shell of the person or the Spirit in which I created? That Spirit is supposedly and possibly eternal so death is of no concern for that Spirit. Since I gave Freewill to those Spirits and the choices to make their own mistakes, why would I intervene and keep them from learning from mistakes made? In other words, why would I answer prayers when everything you need is in the realm of your abilities. In the mind of God and I believe it wholeheartedly, it is the Spirit or Soul that is nurtured and not so much the physical body because that belongs to the Earth. Physical death is seemingly so unfair when we don't and can't get the whole picture of how things really are. Life and death are the only nonvariables of the human condition. Everything in between we own.
Thanks for all the responses. I will take all of your insight and opinions into consideration. Have a wonderful Wednesday!
Seven months after starting this thread I've resolved myself to the fact that I'm happy being agnostic. I'll still look into various beliefs (currently studying Scientology) but I doubt I'll ever follow anything. I just find theology interesting.
Quote from: Simon on July 31, 2013, 04:05:43 PM
Seven months after starting this thread I've resolved myself to the fact that I'm happy being agnostic. I'll still look into various beliefs (currently studying Scientology) but I doubt I'll ever follow anything. I just find theology interesting.
I lost my faith there too for a while. But thankfully I found it again. I didn't find it again by studying a book or going to a church. I found it again by admitting to myself that I needed God in my life. So I prayed and when I did I discovered. I hadn't lost my faith I had just misplaced it. Simon God isn't a belief or a church or a book. If you want to find your lost faith check your heart I'm sure you'll find it there. :)
Quote from: Heather on July 31, 2013, 05:04:14 PM
Simon God isn't a belief or a church or a book. If you want to find your lost faith check your heart I'm sure you'll find it there. :)
Heather, thanks for the message.
I've just come to terms with being an analytical person. I've tried and I can't will myself into suspension of disbelief. Do I hope there is something after death? Of course, everyone wants to exist for eternity. I don't knock whatever someone else wants to believe but to me there is no proof.
Hmm and I thought coming here and openly saying that I have gender issues was hard.
First I want to say that a persons personal belief is important and should be respected as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. That being said I find myself disliking religion, I believe probably more harm then good comes from most faiths. I see religion as something that tells you what to believe and more importantly who to hate. I know that there are many good leaders but there are also many many bad ones too (I must admit Pope Francis is earning my grudging respect). On the other hand scientists that say as an undisputable fact that god does not exist quickly loose my respect, you can neither prove nor disprove that god exists.
In the end I believe if you don't believe in god but you try to make the world a better place and god does exist I think he'll look at what good you did to decide rather then listen to a hateful spiteful "preacher". If God doesn't exist then you will live on in the hearts of those who matter.
For those that are happy and supportive members of churches I do think that it is important that you find comfort in your beliefs, I just personally have a negative view towards organized religion.
Quote from: White Rabbit on July 31, 2013, 08:48:33 PM
Hmm and I thought coming here and openly saying that I have gender issues was hard.
First I want to say that a persons personal belief is important and should be respected as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. That being said I find myself disliking religion, I believe probably more harm then good comes from most faiths. I see religion as something that tells you what to believe and more importantly who to hate. I know that there are many good leaders but there are also many many bad ones too (I must admit Pope Francis is earning my grudging respect). On the other hand scientists that say as an undisputable fact that god does not exist quickly loose my respect, you can neither prove nor disprove that god exists.
In the end I believe if you don't believe in god but you try to make the world a better place and god does exist I think he'll look at what good you did to decide rather then listen to a hateful spiteful "preacher". If God doesn't exist then you will live on in the hearts of those who matter.
For those that are happy and supportive members of churches I do think that it is important that you find comfort in your beliefs, I just personally have a negative view towards organized religion.
I don't identify with institutionalised religions. I don't see how God or just "The Universe" expect a sentient species to build buildings and politicised movements that presume to know all there is to know about The Universe. I imagine that for other species on other homeworlds, a personified 'God' that looked like humans would appear rather humano-centric and embarrassing.
That's if that species 'feels' emotions as we do. In which case I'm being 'humanocentric'.
:)
Quote from: Simon on July 31, 2013, 04:05:43 PM
Seven months after starting this thread I've resolved myself to the fact that I'm happy being agnostic. I'll still look into various beliefs (currently studying Scientology) but I doubt I'll ever follow anything. I just find theology interesting.
I am glad you feel better about it all. I went through that phase, and I am now very content without religion. It's hard to separate oneself from it, but you have to believe what you believe to be true.
Please look deeply into scientology before going down that road. I won't get into rhe beliefs, as everyone is free to believe what they want, but both the founder and current leader of the church have interesting pasts. And the church uses questionable practices. Having said that, I hope you find whatever works for you.
Quote from: White Rabbit on July 31, 2013, 08:48:33 PM
Hmm and I thought coming here and openly saying that I have gender issues was hard.
First I want to say that a persons personal belief is important and should be respected as long as it doesn't cause harm to others. That being said I find myself disliking religion, I believe probably more harm then good comes from most faiths. I see religion as something that tells you what to believe and more importantly who to hate. I know that there are many good leaders but there are also many many bad ones too (I must admit Pope Francis is earning my grudging respect). On the other hand scientists that say as an undisputable fact that god does not exist quickly loose my respect, you can neither prove nor disprove that god exists.
In the end I believe if you don't believe in god but you try to make the world a better place and god does exist I think he'll look at what good you did to decide rather then listen to a hateful spiteful "preacher". If God doesn't exist then you will live on in the hearts of those who matter.
For those that are happy and supportive members of churches I do think that it is important that you find comfort in your beliefs, I just personally have a negative view towards organized religion.
Oh, we people who are transsexual and transgender are needlessly complicated, lol. I myself am an Anglo-Catholic (catholic Anglican).
I think the idea that religion of being by nature 'dogmatic' is a fairly recent view. Of course, the well known Abrahamic Faiths have a terrible international track record for spreading beliefs through more forceful means, but I guess I take 'religion' in its sociological, etymological and cultural meaning, in which it is a venerating cult of a deity, a value, or an object. There are non-dogmatic religions out there, such as Unitarian Universalism.
I guess I am at heart an agnostic theist, which means that I generally do not perceive my religiosity as a sign of blind belief, but of a cultural adherence and lifestyle based on some ancient narrative. Christianity has been part of my culture and family for several generations, and I interpret Christianity more symbolically than others. I think that this indescribable and universal Divinity, of whom Christians have only a very tiny understanding of, loves all things in the entire cosmos and universe, atheist or theist, plant or animal, gay or straight, etc.
After all, Christianity is a deeply symbolic culture and way of life, as an amalgamation of different religions of its period: the narrative of the Hebrew Scriptures, the philosophy and mystery religion of both Roman and Greek, the salvific theology of Mithraism, and the mythos of Zoroastrianism, contributing to this one new religion that united many tribes and cultures for its time period.
Religion can be personal, or it can be congregational. It can be liberally refreshing, or stiffly dogmatic. It all depends on its development, the environment of which it is fostered, and the exclusivity of its claims to life and lifestyle.
Quote from: AMDERS on July 29, 2013, 10:16:41 AM
So if I was a child raised without the knolowdge of the existence of religion, I would not reach "salvation" ? I do not mean to offend anybody and impose my beliefs but come on, even if you are a believer, does none of this stuff bother you?
As a faithful Christian
TM ;) I do not see Salvation as something as easy as sola fide, or faith alone. To me, salvation is something that we 'work with fear and trembling,' that is, it is something of which we earn, through good deeds. The narrative of the Resurrection of Christ is the pinnacle point of where we find Christ's love for humanity; that He, being an ensign of divine nature on earth, would humble Himself to give Himself to humankind, and because of His teachings of being kind to one another, He died for our own selfishness and egoism.
That being said, this Atonement ('Moral View of the Atonement'), this example of love for us on the Cross, becomes the climactic inspiration for us all to become better people, to follow His commandments of loving both the entire cosmic manifestation, and our neighbours as ourselves. "
Very truly, I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains just a single grain; but if it dies, it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)
Thus, Salvation is not a thing based on Faith, but that our Faith (application of this narrative of Resurrection, of Love giving itself to us, so we can give that Love to others) shows itself in works of mercy and charity, of doing good to others, and to practicing virtue in daily life. An atheist, therefore, can emself be very much engaged in salvation, perhaps much more than a Christian who does nothing to serve the less fortunate.
A child is thus saved by his or her own actions towards others: of being good, practicing virtue, and doing works of charity. That is why Christ died for me: to show me that the Love that we sacrifice upon others, is in itself salvific, and not in some emotional one-time literal acceptance of a supernatural event. All you need is love. ;)
Catalina,
I enjoyed your answer kiddo.
The works we do manifest faith as James said faith without works is dead.
When we have faith and do the works it is as the fruit being seen on the outside of the tree.
Many are quick to say God looks on the heart as with Samuel and David but fail to realize that the fruit of the Spirit is manifested on the outside as well. We know a peach tree is a peach tree when we see the peaches. Even Jesus said from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
As I said, I enjoyed your answer.
May God bless.
a Christian that embraces Salvation in a road that includes atheism is very beautiful. I would only add that the state of being and mind and of the heart during acts on the path to Salvation is important. To be in a state of Grace is to know Christ's presence within the heart. That last sentence need not be so prescriptive to insist that Grace and Christ are inexorably and inextricably fused. Otherwise, how can states of Grace exist outside of Christianity, and of course they do.
Kind regards stav
Quote from: Si on July 31, 2013, 04:05:43 PM
Seven months after starting this thread I've resolved myself to the fact that I'm happy being agnostic. I'll still look into various beliefs (currently studying Scientology) but I doubt I'll ever follow anything. I just find theology interesting.
Thank you for sharing your transformation with us, Simon. I find it to be very interesting how many people evolve in their beliefs over time, including myself. :)
Quote from: Si on July 31, 2013, 07:25:53 PM
Heather, thanks for the message.
I've just come to terms with being an analytical person. I've tried and I can't will myself into suspension of disbelief. Do I hope there is something after death? Of course, everyone wants to exist for eternity. I don't knock whatever someone else wants to believe but to me there is no proof.
I know I'm late to the discussion, but I thought I'd throw a thought or two out there.
First, if the God described in the Bible created the Universe as He said he did, then it shows a highly organized and analytical mind. Doesn't 2 Timothy 1:7 say God has given us Spirit of power, and of love, AND A SOUND MIND? The Mind that made the Universe is perfectly able and willing to stand up to human analysis and the proofs of His existence are in His Bible and in His universe. When historians judge ancient manuscripts the use three tests - the internal test (what a document says about itself), the external test (what it says about history), and the bibliographic test (what the manuscripts say about themselves) and NOTHING compares to the Bible. The books of the Old Testament are considered to be the most accurate copies from antiquity because Jewish scribes considered it an affront to God to not copy it exactly. The New Testament is commonly accepted to have been completed within 70 years of Jesus' Accession and there are over 5000 copies of the original manuscripts, which is unparalleled in ancient literature (Homer's Iliad is a distant second with 650ish copies). Because of the quality of the Old Testament copies and the quantity of the New Testament copies, the Bible stands unparalleled in its bibliographic accuracy.
Which brings me to point two. Our view of the Bible is wrong: the Bible is not one book, but rather it is 66 books written by about 40 people over the course of at least 1,600 (and probably closer to 2,600) years. The Bible (and I am just using the 66 books of the Protesant canon - not saying the books others keep are wrong, but just not included in the Protestant canon), is not meant to be read as a just handbook on how to live (though it does include that), but as the story of Yahweh and His love for mankind. Everyone gets hung up on the nasty parts of the Old Testament - the genocide, the slavery, the war, the rape, and everything else and they miss the bigger picture - this is a millennia long story of EPIC proportions. It is the story of Yahweh's eon long plan to secure the salvation of mankind. Because of how the individual books of the Bible were written, by dozens of authors over thousands of years, the Bible can only be explained the same way Jesus can - either the greatest fraud, or in the Bible's case hoax, of all time, or something else entirely - something that's origin is not of this world. It can only be one of those two. We have the Bible as a whole; it wasn't written as a whole - it was assembled long after it was written. And because we have it as a whole we forget the time between the writing of the various books and the prophecies a d foreshadowings in the Old Testament and their fulfillment years later in the New Testament. It is easy to miss the foreshadowing of Jesus to come in the first chapter of Genesis and the dozens of foreshadowing of the Christ thoughtful the Old Testament. The Old Testament and all its ugliness is the logical build up to the New Testament. It is easy to miss the small details that give validity to the Bible, but they are there - they are in small things like the bravery of a prostitue, Rahab, who became the ancestor of King David and by extension Jesus, or that the snake in the Garden of Eden was told EVE's descendant (not Adam's) would crush the head of the serpent.
Third, people miss that God doesn't change from start to finish in the Bible - He begins as holy, and He proves His holiness on the cross at Calvary, and He stands as holy at the end of Revelation. Yahweh is holy, which is something we as humans cannot comprehend because we are not holy. We are good, but not holy - that is the fundamental difference between Yahweh and mankind. And He even says that of Himself in Isaiah 55:8 - "my thoughts are not your thoughts and neither are my ways your ways." It's the same now - I have wrestled with my gender identity for as long as I can remember and many times I've asked God why. I will not know until I stand before my King, but I do know that God does know and that He has a purpose for everything. If when He was making me in my mother's womb He saw fit to give me this, then there is a purpose for it even if I cannot see it.
Fourth, the Bible has some pretty cool basis in scientific fact Job 26:7 says God hangs the earth on nothing (and Job is the oldest of the 66 books). Isaiah 40:22 says God sits above a round Earth - the Church got it wrong in saying the Earth was flat, but not the Bible. Humans get it wrong; God's word does not.
Which really brings me to the end of this. God says His word will last forever and I take it to mean His Bible, His Word will never die; it has survived for millennia and it will continue to survive. Our interpretations will change; the Author's intent never changes though.
If you still aren't sure, you're in good company. C.S. Lewis was agnostic for decades before meeting Christ the Living Son of God. If you're interested in theology, I invite you to take up studying apologetics. They saved my faith when I needed reason to back up what I believed.
Quote from: Del on August 07, 2013, 02:26:04 AM
Catalina,
I enjoyed your answer kiddo.
The works we do manifest faith as James said faith without works is dead.
When we have faith and do the works it is as the fruit being seen on the outside of the tree.
Many are quick to say God looks on the heart as with Samuel and David but fail to realize that the fruit of the Spirit is manifested on the outside as well. We know a peach tree is a peach tree when we see the peaches. Even Jesus said from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
As I said, I enjoyed your answer.
May God bless.
Oh, thank you so much, Del! And I do love peaches myself! May you, and all those participating in these forums, be always blessed under Jehovah's nuture and care. :)
And I love the Book of James. An amazing part of Christian literature!
Quote from: stavraki on August 10, 2013, 07:22:13 AM
a Christian that embraces Salvation in a road that includes atheism is very beautiful. I would only add that the state of being and mind and of the heart during acts on the path to Salvation is important. To be in a state of Grace is to know Christ's presence within the heart. That last sentence need not be so prescriptive to insist that Grace and Christ are inexorably and inextricably fused. Otherwise, how can states of Grace exist outside of Christianity, and of course they do.
Kind regards stav
Thank you, Stav, for the kind and gentle reminder! For me, the doctrine of universal reconciliation or universal salvation (Christian Universalism) is the most beautiful of beliefs that has been hidden for centuries by but a few (such as Origen). I do not know how any one can ever limit God's infinite love for all of us, even as atheists and agnostics. I am not a literalist, fundamentalist, or what have you, but even if I did take the Bible literally, I find no satisfaction in this religion unless it's Love rests upon all humankind without discrimination.
I find that the Lord Himself created science and philosophy, and the scientific method. It is veritably a fruit upon that Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. When an atheist experiences the beauty of a sunrise, or the love between parent and child, or the spirit of charity towards another fellow human being, I know in my heart that there lies the verysame Holy Spirit, and the Seven Gifts which He bestows upon those that exercise His virtues.
Wherein is love, awe, and reverence, therein to me is the presence of God, the grace of Christ, and the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Ive felt the same way at times but their is a God, Ive had to many close calls to death and Im still in highschool, Ifeel like I don't belong in church either sometimes because of my trans status, But I'm always gonna stay a christian
Quote from: Brandon on August 30, 2013, 10:31:54 PM
Ive felt the same way at times but their is a God, Ive had to many close calls to death and Im still in highschool, Ifeel like I don't belong in church either sometimes because of my trans status, But I'm always gonna stay a christian
Amen, Brandon! :) There are many good Christian churches out there, by the way, that may be accepting of you: Quakers, certain Episcopalian/Anglican churches (TEC, or ECUSA), certain Lutheran churches, United Church (UCC), Metropolitan Community Church (MCC), and others.
Even then, I really don't that God cares whether we are in church or outside of church, etc. I think what he appreciates more, is a sincere heart, being a good person, and nice guys like you! ;)
God bless, hun.
Your sister in Christ!
I was a non-believer - for many reasons.
But then I met Him.
He expects our faith to waver - don't punish yourself for it.
He knows your past, present, and future and yet...still loves you unconditionally.
He will show Himself to you at His own timing. <--believe in that at the least. :)
Quote from: Catalina on August 29, 2013, 02:33:58 AM
Thank you, Stav, for the kind and gentle reminder! For me, the doctrine of universal reconciliation or universal salvation (Christian Universalism) is the most beautiful of beliefs that has been hidden for centuries by but a few (such as Origen). I do not know how any one can ever limit God's infinite love for all of us, even as atheists and agnostics. I am not a literalist, fundamentalist, or what have you, but even if I did take the Bible literally, I find no satisfaction in this religion unless it's Love rests upon all humankind without discrimination.
I find that the Lord Himself created science and philosophy, and the scientific method. It is veritably a fruit upon that Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. When an atheist experiences the beauty of a sunrise, or the love between parent and child, or the spirit of charity towards another fellow human being, I know in my heart that there lies the verysame Holy Spirit, and the Seven Gifts which He bestows upon those that exercise His virtues.
Wherein is love, awe, and reverence, therein to me is the presence of God, the grace of Christ, and the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
U r fully welcome - lovely to meet u. I love this thread, and always end up weeping as I read through the prose. Grace, I suppose is the State I always reach to, or realise or find or reconnect with as I read, and your posts are 'just so'. Thank you for your beautiful, beautiful messages. Amen and may Spirit ever reach you, so that any ailment of Spirit you face in challenge be healed ever more quickly. Awe, surrender, compassion and acceptance - stav
Quote from: Fitter Admin on January 04, 2013, 11:42:02 PM
The whole idea of some poor carpenter suffering on a cross just for me is cinematic to say the least. So are the big, beautiful historic churchs involved. I always wished our family was Catholic for that reason. Going to confess to some ancient priest hidden behind a door - that sounds kinda hot. (I mean absolutely no offense to any Catholics, but to an outsider it sounds awesome.) And declaring myself a horrible, wretched, undeserving sinner saved by the blood of a crucified god? Sign me up! Really, when you think about it, these concepts are pretty hot. (Hey, Madonna thinks so too.)
hahahahah!
I was raised catholic but missed out on that too... and I missed out on a good spanking! :D
Would love to have been catrated at a young age and be forced to sing in a church choir (or italian opera in female clothes).
These times dont sound so bad when you are in the right place and the right time.
I also love the church music and art....especially baroque, its just brilliant... best ever, to my humble opinion.
I have been struggling with faith a lot and I would like to have more comfort and peace from faith but each time find
myself unable to have hope and trust. Even though my spirituality is very individual (and I like it that way) I still find it
hard to trust even in my own experiences. But I will get there, one day! Im sure!
For me its all about love and inspiration. :)
And a good spanking. ;)
Quote from: Sibila on September 11, 2013, 05:51:55 AM
I have been struggling with faith a lot and I would like to have more comfort and peace from faith but each time find
myself unable to have hope and trust.
I can sympathize! The idea of faith has been made very confusing by the tendency in society (and in conversations with religious people) to slip between two meanings of the word while still in the same conversation, and without realizing that two distinct meanings of faith are being used. I will call them here Good Faith and Bad Faith, and I hope to show they are indeed distinct.
Good Faith is a combination of experience and trust, and most importantly, is based on evidence. It is a belief about something that while difficult or impossible to prove, is nonetheless based on evidence. I have faith that I will have the strength to live on, even if I encounter a very difficult time in my life. I have no proof I can offer, but this is still based on evidence. I've lost both my mom and my dad, and have gone through some very difficult times, but I believe I know myself well enough at this point to have faith that I will soldier on, regardless of what comes my way. Good Faith can similarly be applied to judgments about other people whom you have had interactions with, and those interactions are the basis of your evidence to hold this faith in these people. Faith that your best friend will not disown you if you come out to them as transgender. Etc. You're putting "faith" in something, but it's not based on nothing. It's based on something undeniably real, even if you turn out to be mistaken in the end, at least it was a judgement based on real evidence. This is the kind of faith that gets us out of bed in the morning, and all of our positive connotations with the word faith come from this meaning of it.
Bad Faith, on the other hand, is when you are asked to believe in something that there is really no good reason to believe, or no evidence for. The people asking you to believe these things rely instead on a notion they call faith, because they simply have nothing else they can point to. If it isn't obvious already, religions and gods fall into this category. When people say they have faith in god, what they are saying is that they have faith that their god is real and true. What is this based on? At that point, if they don't point to their holy books as proof (which they are not), they'll point right back at Bad Faith, as if it's proven something, when really they're just restating their original unfounded belief. That's circular logic. You just have to have faith, they'll say. It's really quite meaningless in that way. It's as if the Bad Faith itself is offered up as some sort of good reason to believe that the Christian god is real and true, when there's really no good reason to believe that. A Christian has no better reason for believing in the Christian god than the Greeks had for believing in Zeus. In Bad Faith, there is no way to distinguish between these non-evidence-based claims.
I refer to Bad Faith as Bad Faith because this non-skeptical viewpoint has terrible consequences in our world. Bad Faith is how otherwise sane people are convinced to believe things like god created the earth 6000 years ago, and that men once rode astride dinosaurs. Or that there are 72 virgins waiting in paradise for you, and if you die a martyr, you skip the waiting phase (along with your family), and go straight to heaven. There's no evidence for any of this; to believe it, you just have to have faith. Specifically, you have to have Bad Faith.
Hey raindance773. Great post. I too have struggled why God made me this way. Then I remember Romans 8:28, " And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Great post my friend.
Hello everyone,
Thank you Si for starting this thread (?) This is only my second post so I'm not sure of terminology. I also love and keep returning to this thread, its a wonderful experience. I have a deep felt need to respond in spite of the late timing and the last post warning.
To answer your question. Yes, I struggle with faith. I struggle with my experience of faith seeking understanding of the action and presence of God in my life. However, I can now say my faith in God is unshakable, my understanding of my experience of God is, for me at times, enigmatic but always fascinating.
I hope the following might be helpful. It took me a long time, through prayer of the heart and reading scripture, to come to this personal overview of Jesus' fundamental message:
Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen (Heb. 11:1)
This is St Paul' defining description of the meaning of the word 'faith' and it is a logical definition in the context in which it is found. St Paul's definition of faith describes what he understands as having occurred through an encounter with the living God in the lives of Abraham, Moses, Rahab the prostitute and even in himself at the gates of Damascus. Note well, St Paul puts a prostitute alongside the patriarchs as favoured by God with the gift of faith.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
In the context of our encounter with God, the only one who can give an assurance of things we hope for or convince us of things that are unseen is God. No one else but God has the wherewithal to underwrite this definition of the meaning of the word faith. St Paul had his own direct experience of this definition of faith at the gates of Damascus. As you will recall, St Paul was a Pharisee and believed in the resurrection of the dead, unlike the Sadducees who did not. St Paul's hope in the resurrection was confirmed when the risen Christ addressed the question to him, "Why are you persecuting Me". Jesus' intervention in the life of St Paul was a gift of faith. From this understanding, we can see faith is not blind, faith is not without reason, and God is not without an ironical sense of humour.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
After John the Baptist was killed Jesus began to preach the following "repent and believe the kingdom of God is close at hand". In many ways this is an enigmatic statement by Jesus. Perhaps it was to elicit or provoke interest in his listeners to seek to understand the significance of what was being said to them. To understand the scriptural meaning of The Kingdom of God requires effort and searching. We need to look closely at the meaning of these particular words in Jesus' statement, "The Kingdom of God is close at hand" because they lead us to our own personal experience of the presence of God, in other words our own personal experience of faith. Jesus' announcement of the imminence of the kingdom of God is the principal gospel message.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
St Matthew tells us to, "Seek first the Kingdom of God and its righteousness and all the things you need will be given to you". St Luke tells us the Kingdom of God is within us. St Paul tells us the Kingdom of God is joy and peace in the Holy Spirit and also tells us we shall know when we have received the Holy Spirit because our spirit unites with the Spirit of Jesus and we cry Abba Father. When his disciples asked Him how to pray Jesus told them saying. Our Father... Thy Kingdom come... Thy Will be done.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
Immerse yourself in prayer of the heart, persevere in prayer of the heart, dare to believe and God will reveal himself to you in fullness giving you the gift of faith. It is said St Francis of Assisi could not finish the second word of the Lord's prayer... Father. It is a lived example of how St Paul describes receiving the Holy Spirit. This experience is your birth right as a baptised Christian, I have had the same experience myself and I'm not alone. Pray... pray... pray to God with all your heart until God reveals Himself to you in profound peace and silence. Then you will be given the courage, perception and strength to live as a child of God.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
St John tells us, "Eternal life.... is to know the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent" Pray with the heart until you experience the presence of God within you...it is unmistakable you will be overwhelmed with peace and joy. Then, live the Lord's Prayer and you will enter into eternal life, which is begun now. The personal experience of faith as defined by St Paul leads naturally to Hope and Hope naturally leads to love of God and each other. The only fruit that God is looking for in His children is Love, God is Love, and eternal life is to become love. Where you see and experience kindness, patience, forgiveness, forbearance and hope you experience love, you experience the presence of God.
Fix this in your heart and mind.... "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen." Faith is not without reason it is a most precious gift from God!
Again, many thanks for starting this thread, God bless, Talitha.
Quote from: Si on December 26, 2012, 09:12:14 PM
I've struggled with Religion for as long as I can remember. I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home where it was demanded that I attended church four times a week (twice Sunday,Wednesday night,Friday youth group). I attended Christian Summer Camp and at one point I wanted to be a missionary.
As I grew up I developed a interest in studying Theology. I probably know more about different faiths than those who practice them. I've always been analytical and I think that may have been to my detriment. It's hard to believe in a God when the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one. The evidence concludes that despite wishful thinking, hopes, and prayers the sad fact is we are alone.
I desperately want to believe in God. I've tried multiple times to have faith without reasoning. I love the idea of Jesus Christ. I love the stories and to think that God himself came down to die for mankind's salvation is comforting. Being comforting doesn't make it true though.
Anyone else struggle with faith?
Struggle? Me? Every day.
Before I get to carried away, you state that "the evidence points to the fact that there isn't one" (a God.)
I think you have probably heard all the standard lines of evidence. So my question to you is, "What evidence would help your faith?" Give me some option here as I'm not all knowing.
Jen
Quote from: Talitha Cumi on October 28, 2013, 11:45:24 AM
Hello everyone,
Thank you Si for starting this thread (?) This is only my second post so I'm not sure of terminology. I also love and keep returning to this thread, its a wonderful experience. I have a deep felt need to respond in spite of the late timing and the last post warning.
To answer your question. Yes, I struggle with faith. I struggle with my experience of faith seeking understanding of the action and presence of God in my life. However, I can now say my faith in God is unshakable, my understanding of my experience of God is, for me at times, enigmatic but always fascinating.
I hope the following might be helpful. It took me a long time, through prayer of the heart and reading scripture, to come to this personal overview of Jesus' fundamental message:
Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen (Heb. 11:1)
This is St Paul' defining description of the meaning of the word 'faith' and it is a logical definition in the context in which it is found. St Paul's definition of faith describes what he understands as having occurred through an encounter with the living God in the lives of Abraham, Moses, Rahab the prostitute and even in himself at the gates of Damascus. Note well, St Paul puts a prostitute alongside the patriarchs as favoured by God with the gift of faith.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
In the context of our encounter with God, the only one who can give an assurance of things we hope for or convince us of things that are unseen is God. No one else but God has the wherewithal to underwrite this definition of the meaning of the word faith. St Paul had his own direct experience of this definition of faith at the gates of Damascus. As you will recall, St Paul was a Pharisee and believed in the resurrection of the dead, unlike the Sadducees who did not. St Paul's hope in the resurrection was confirmed when the risen Christ addressed the question to him, "Why are you persecuting Me". Jesus' intervention in the life of St Paul was a gift of faith. From this understanding, we can see faith is not blind, faith is not without reason, and God is not without an ironical sense of humour.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
After John the Baptist was killed Jesus began to preach the following "repent and believe the kingdom of God is close at hand". In many ways this is an enigmatic statement by Jesus. Perhaps it was to elicit or provoke interest in his listeners to seek to understand the significance of what was being said to them. To understand the scriptural meaning of The Kingdom of God requires effort and searching. We need to look closely at the meaning of these particular words in Jesus' statement, "The Kingdom of God is close at hand" because they lead us to our own personal experience of the presence of God, in other words our own personal experience of faith. Jesus' announcement of the imminence of the kingdom of God is the principal gospel message.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
St Matthew tells us to, "Seek first the Kingdom of God and its righteousness and all the things you need will be given to you". St Luke tells us the Kingdom of God is within us. St Paul tells us the Kingdom of God is joy and peace in the Holy Spirit and also tells us we shall know when we have received the Holy Spirit because our spirit unites with the Spirit of Jesus and we cry Abba Father. When his disciples asked Him how to pray Jesus told them saying. Our Father... Thy Kingdom come... Thy Will be done.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
Immerse yourself in prayer of the heart, persevere in prayer of the heart, dare to believe and God will reveal himself to you in fullness giving you the gift of faith. It is said St Francis of Assisi could not finish the second word of the Lord's prayer... Father. It is a lived example of how St Paul describes receiving the Holy Spirit. This experience is your birth right as a baptised Christian, I have had the same experience myself and I'm not alone. Pray... pray... pray to God with all your heart until God reveals Himself to you in profound peace and silence. Then you will be given the courage, perception and strength to live as a child of God.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."
St John tells us, "Eternal life.... is to know the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent" Pray with the heart until you experience the presence of God within you...it is unmistakable you will be overwhelmed with peace and joy. Then, live the Lord's Prayer and you will enter into eternal life, which is begun now. The personal experience of faith as defined by St Paul leads naturally to Hope and Hope naturally leads to love of God and each other. The only fruit that God is looking for in His children is Love, God is Love, and eternal life is to become love. Where you see and experience kindness, patience, forgiveness, forbearance and hope you experience love, you experience the presence of God.
Fix this in your heart and mind.... "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen." Faith is not without reason it is a most precious gift from God!
Again, many thanks for starting this thread, God bless, Talitha.
This was very beautiful, Talitha and I enjoyed what you had to say. The most important word was "faith".
I would like to do a follow-up on what I said several months ago.
Quote from: Malachite on April 20, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
This is a little late but I'm somewhat struggling with a similar issue right now. I was raised up non-denominational (but closer to Pentacostal) and I was sort of the odd person out in the church and never really felt the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, felt the need to jump around, cry etc. I was more like a brick wall, I'm even one of the Sunday school teachers. I was raised up Christian and had so many questions about it that went unanswered and for the last few days I've been lurking at an ex Christian forum. I shouldn't have done that but after reading a lot of their reasons for why they went atheist, I feel my faith wavering and slowly crumbling but I so really want to keep it when they see the evidence pointing to otherwise. I'm almost afraid to start searching deeper because of this fear. I start to question if I've ever really heard from God or if that was just me. I asked him to give me a sign to confirm his existance this morning and nothing happened. However, I just can't accept that there is no God. Like Admin said, the thought of a capenter dying on the cross for me just sounds very more cinematic as opposed to some explosion that made the world (though these two events are unrelated).
I don't know.
Well, eventually I got the answer I was looking for. God spoke to me concerning wanting "signs" of His existence and he basically told me something along the lines of "How could you think I don't exist? Take a look around at nature and what I've created." My eyes were suddenly opened. It was like a "duh" moment of me and how foolish of me to think otherwise and immediately asked for forgiveness. Later on I found out that this was actually backed up by Romans 1:20. Even then, I still had some trouble belieiving and wrapping my mind around it, but I pretty much told myself that I'm going to keep believing no matter how I feel. The next Sunday, it was my cousin asked if I wanted to teach the children that day so she could stay up front and listen to the service, so I agreed to do it. When I got the lesson, it was a lesson about faith and the main scripture for that day was Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I can say that was the best lesson I have EVER taught because it helped me. Even the kids were amazed about how eager I was to teach that lesson. From then on out my faith has gotten nothing but stronger. I love faith now! God was probably laughing and thinking "he not going
anywhere. He's staying right here with me." I'm glad he doesn't let his sheep stray too far!
Quote from: Malachite on May 11, 2013, 06:55:38 AM
Thanks everyone. I've pretty much came to a similar point like yours Simon, where I believe in Jesus (more for security reasons than anything), but I try to keep an open mind concerning the Bible, especially the old testament, since it's pretty much a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy. I find that being more of a liberal Christian helps me find somewhat of a balance between the fanatical Christian and the unshakable Atheist. I do hope that I continue to evole in my beliefs and interpretations though.
I still keep an open mind concerning the Bible and possible interpretations, but now when I see scriptures from the KJV bible, instead of me going "it's a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy" (though I still think it is in a sense) I just say, "hey, the Bible says it, I believe it."
Quote from: Malachite on June 19, 2013, 01:59:45 AM
It's funny you mention that, because one of the pastors I follow on Youtube has a clip of his sermon that is titled "Pastors who preach from the NIV AREN'T SAVED!" lol This guy is a KJV Onlyist and he actually rejects other Bibles as the SSV, NKJV, NWT, etc.
Ironically enough, I'm pretty much a KJV Onlyist now.
Quote from: DianaPeña link=topic=132566.msg1288420#msg1288420
$10 says a lot of people are gonna give me hate for this.
No hate, we all have opinions. You just might want to check this post out: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,13517.0.html
Just seems inappropriate for a board set up for Christian support/discussion.
I love this thread, I'm going to try to resurrect it (pardon pun :)).
As much as the scientific rationalist in me demands evidence, fact and pursues the hypothetico-deductive traditions of hypothesis testing, as I age, I have found that Faith and science are not at all mutually exclusive.
I start, with a hardcore rationalist with their experience of awe. That for me, is our joining point, between those of spiritual faith and those of other non spiritual affiliations. When Carl Sagan looked out at the universe, he was awed by the vastness. Awe transports us beyond ourselves, into a place beyond anything and anyone we know. That humbling experience reminds us that the Universe or Multiverse becomes increasingly unfathomable as more is discovered about it. Perhaps to say, 'the more questions that are answered, the more that emerge'. For me, and to the scientists, that's good enough an overlap between those of faith and those who say they have none.
Kind Regards
stav
Quote from: stavraki on December 21, 2013, 09:09:29 PM
I love this thread, I'm going to try to resurrect it (pardon pun :)).
As much as the scientific rationalist in me demands evidence, fact and pursues the hypothetico-deductive traditions of hypothesis testing, as I age, I have found that Faith and science are not at all mutually exclusive.
stav
Faith and science are not mutually exclusive.
For almost 20 years, I was in the laboratory, making things, measuring things and then arriving at a conclusion or course of action based on those observations. Most science follows that reasoning. The difference between the experimentalist and the theorist is that once the conclusion is made, the experimentalist will confirm the accuracy of the conclusion. Many people who use observations to arrive at a conclusion never test or can never test the accuracy. It's easy to be correct when the answer is not or cannot be challenged. I would put both evolution and theism in the category.
We cannot "prove" anything. We can only disprove competing theories. A scientist has to make their answer much more probable than any competing answer. Based on everything I know about chemistry and about how life works at a molecular level. The evidence supporting intelligent design is much stronger than the evidence supporting evolution. The intelligent design thing leads me to Christianity and Christ. (Unfortunately, most of those who call themselves "Christian" tend to push me away but that is actually expected.)
God gave us a brain. We need to use it.
Hugs,
Jen
i think you should try going to a place of healing.
find a church where the have the more "mystical" stuff and just visit.
seeing a miraculous healing or being healed yourself can be a life changing event.
i am blessed enough to have faith no matter the amount of proof in my life. in fact the less proof i have, the more faith i have.
its natural to doubt. i have in my own growth as a christian.
i found an article in a magazine once (i might try to find a link) that had talk of how the laws of physics and the makeup of the universe was "unnaturally" perfect for life. their word not mine.
to me the deeper you get into science, the more proof there is of a god. the problem is, its based only on our own understanding. and this can be very limiting.
Quote from: AMDERS on July 29, 2013, 09:50:48 AM
Its funny to me that an all poweferul god cannot be kind to everyone, whether they believe or not. Its just odd that he would require you to praise him in order for him to save you. How is he benefiting from people praising him. Maybe he has really bad self confidence or he's just a totaljerk.
constantine had prayed to the christian god for help in battle and it happened.
i dont think the question is who he is kind to, it who asks for his kindness. not many nonbeliever pray to him. and if you dont ask for it, how can he give it to you?
its true he knows our every need. but why would he say "ask and you shall recieve." if he didnt want us to ask?
he wants us to know he is there for us. we call to him and he answers. and he expects the same from us.
love is a 2 way street.
Quote from: Emo on December 30, 2013, 11:49:37 AM
love is a 2 way street.
Exactly.
Can anyone imagine being in a relationship where there was only one way communication? Where one person in the relationship did all the heavy lifting and the other just wondered around and didn't pay attention to the partner? That is what some seem to expect from God.
Christ died so that we would have a relationship with God. A relationship takes work and sometimes is hard. However, a good relationship is rewarding beyond words.
Praise=Thank You
Hugs,
Jen