After a discussion with my parents, I said that having bottom surgery wasn't a big need for me. Of course I'd want it, but the procedure scares me and can be risky. I told them I wanted top surgery though. My dad proceeded to say that if I don't want bottom surgery then I'm still a girl and it must be purely an image thing. He said that if I wanted to be a boy that bad then I'd get it, no matter what the risks are. He also said that nobody would ever want to be in a relationship with someone who is 'half and half' as he called it. My question is, how many of you have top surgery without bottom surgery and how many of you know you don't want bottom surgery in the future?
Joey
I don't want bottom surgery. I want top surgery ASAP.
It's a cost benefit analysis. Currently, the reward is not worth the effort (risk/cost/pain/future health issues) for me.
Don't listen to people who say you need to want bottom surgery to really be transgender - your dad has no idea. There's lot of reasons people don't get bottom surgery. There's also a fair number of guys who absolutely need bottom surgery to deal with their dysphoria, so to each our own.
Your dad is just trying to find random reasons to protest. Relationships wise, some people's partners prefer they don't get Bottom surgery - so people's preferences are all over the place. Don't worry.
I think that sentiment is one shared by many relatives of trans folks. My mom just a few weeks ago was talking to me about my hysto and I mentioned I plan on top surgery in about two years. Her first reaction was "what about the other?". I said "what other" (just to see what she would say) and she said "you have to get a penis if you want to be a man". Then I asked her if a man born with a micropenis or a man who was castrated in an accident was still a man. She said "well, of course", yet she didn't get the irony.
Do I want bottom surgery? Yeeeeessss, buuuuutttt I don't like the options available right now. Regardless of what I want bottom surgery is very expensive and it will be a decade for me before it's even an option financially. I am thinking about getting a "release" in around five years and seeing if that eases my dysphoria but that remains to be seen.
There are people who don't mind being with someone who is "half and half" (as your father so elegantly put it :laugh:). I'll be with my gf (who only dated cis men before we met) nine years on February 12th. If there is somebody for me then you better believe there is someone out there for everyone else.
It is my understanding that actually a very large proportion of trans men choose not to get bottom surgery for a variety of reasons. So basically your dad is talking out his ass and just looking for any reason to stay in denial about you.
I don't plan on ever getting lower surgery but top surgery is an absolute 100% necessity. A man is not defined by his genitals.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I totally agree with all of you and I said to him earlier that plenty of other trans men don't have bottom surgery and he said that they're not a man then, they're still a woman. Glad to know I'm not the only one.
Joey
It amuses me to think that people who share your dad's views could have met any number of transpeople in their life and never even realised. Unless he has a very weird relationship with all of his friends and aquaintences there's no way he can know for sure what's in their pants
Quote from: Jeatyn on January 09, 2013, 05:13:29 PM
It amuses me to think that people who share your dad's views could have met any number of transpeople in their life and never even realised. Unless he has a very weird relationship with all of his friends and aquaintences there's no way he can know for sure what's in their pants
That's true actually haha never even thought of it like that.
Joey
Ask him if a man who loses his testicles or penis/part of his penis in an accident or in a war, or who is born with a smaller than average or even micro penis, undescended testicles, is not a man then. What a ridiculous, closed minded view on things. There are gay men in relationships with trans men who haven't had bottom surgery, and straight women too, so there are people open minded about the issue and willing to date those of us who can't afford or don't want the risks/not too terribly advanced results of surgery.
From what I've heard, some people have always wanted both top and bottom surgeries, some people started off wanting only top surgery and then felt later like they needed bottom surgery as well, some people get top surgery and can't afford it or have medical issues that prevent them, some people can't get either because of financial or medical issues, and some people don't feel the need to get either. There's no 'right' way to be trans, and there's no regulations as to what procedures you go through, it's all about making you comfortable with yourself, not conforming to other people's ideas.
It doesn't make someone less of a man if they choose not to go through a very expensive, risky operation -- or in some cases, phalloplasty in particular -- more than one operation. Every single anesthetic you go under carries a risk, and that's before you start the risks of infection etc. There's no guarantee that you're going to get one on the NHS either, especially if you would rather get a metoidioplasty than a phalloplasty, because they believe that guys aren't satisfied with meta, so go and get phallo done later and they don't like 'wasting' their (our) money.
Does your dad really want to go and battle with the NHS over his son getting risky surgeries, which may or may not improve his quality of life?
Maybe nudge him towards looking at some results, and then he might see why quite a few trans men opt out of getting bottom surgery
despite still being men (this isn't to say that they're subpar/disgusting/horrific/[insert derogatory word here], just that they're not perfect, and it's quite easy to see how the actual surgery/ies are pretty nasty to go through, especially in the case of MLD flap phalloplasty (looks like a massive shark bite to me)).
Maybe don't say that you will never want bottom surgery, but rather just say that top surgery has got to be your main priority, and that it's not worth looking as far into the future as bottom surgery at the moment, considering you're not on T and have only just come out. Suggest that it might be better for your health if you waited to see if bottom surgery techniques were likely to become more advanced and that you are a man no matter what; you would love to get a penis, but they're neither anatomically perfect and quite risky at the moment.
Either way, plenty of people who are "half and half" have partners. Every one's bodies are different, and even if he wouldn't go out with someone who didn't have the genitals that matched their gender, other people will. There are roughly 7,090,659,130 people on the earth at the time I write this, and it's crazy to think that one man can suggest that none of them will love you purely on the choices you make regarding your health.
Quote from: Jeatyn on January 09, 2013, 05:13:29 PM
It amuses me to think that people who share your dad's views could have met any number of transpeople in their life and never even realised. Unless he has a very weird relationship with all of his friends and aquaintences there's no way he can know for sure what's in their pants
Also this. Whenever my grandfather gets disgusted over gay people on TV, or their general existence, I always cheer myself up by reminding myself that one of his favourite current actors - Micheal French - is bisexual. For someone who normally turns the TV off at any sign of gay people (or left wing politicians, Scottish people (except his Scottish wife and Scottish mother), Irish people, Welsh people, any foreign person in general...) he was quite keen to buy the box set of one of the series he starred in...
Your family is still getting their minds around this, Joey, give them time to go through the steps. From their viewpoint you're basically killing off someone they love and raised, and replacing that person with someone else. Sure, you're the same person, they haven't figured it out yet, though. Give them time, be patient and work with them. When it seems like they don't understand, well, they don't. But they will. They'll understand when they see you as a happy man. Hugs, Devlyn
He said he'd looked up some of the procedures and he said that surely if I wanted to be a man then I'd go through with it despite the risks. Thanks for your comments. You're all saying how I'm feeling. I now have some good points to come back with if he says it again.
I know Devlyn. It's just so hard to give them time. My mum is still convinced I'm confused about liking girls. She even called me f***ed up. I don't think they'll ever understand. They told me that themselves.
Joey
Trust me, they'll understand one day.
Quote from: Joey4 on January 09, 2013, 04:34:27 PM
He also said that nobody would ever want to be in a relationship with someone who is 'half and half' as he called it.
Well I know for a fact that's not true.
Quote from: Joey4 on January 09, 2013, 05:52:46 PM
He said he'd looked up some of the procedures and he said that surely if I wanted to be a man then I'd go through with it despite the risks. Thanks for your comments. You're all saying how I'm feeling. I now have some good points to come back with if he says it again.
I know Devlyn. It's just so hard to give them time. My mum is still convinced I'm confused about liking girls. She even called me f***ed up. I don't think they'll ever understand. They told me that themselves.
Joey
If anything's f'd up it's wanting their kid to have their body sliced up in order to prove him to them. It does take time though, and there's nothing we can do to speed that up except try and be open with them. Even my girlfriend who was supportive from the start needed a bit of time to adjust herself and realise that this really is who am, and that I'm not going to change, but almost a year of knowing and loving someone isn't quite the same as a lifetime I suppose, which is why it's going to take them more than 3 days. Once they realise that it's who you are, and you're not going to change you should almost be there.
Sorry, I know I'm sounding harsh. It just seems so wrong for a parent to say that they won't believe you unless you willingly go to a surgeon and ask them to cut you up. We get annoyed enough at governments saying that we have to do that, parents should love us more than that. Shame it rarely seems to work out that way.
(I'm just going to slope of now before I really upset someone with my cynicism.)
You're not being harsh. You're only saying what I'm thinking. I was fuming earlier. I left the house and didn't return for hours. I don't want to be around them. I'm moving out as soon as I can.
Joey
I'm guessing your dad lacks knowledge re: transgender. Obviously this isn't true as probably most trans guys do not get surgery. Many do not get it due to cost, but there are other factors (options available, how happy people are with the options, etc). Sometimes people do change their minds (one way or another about this).
If you can get him to read stuff, Laura's playground has a (very) moderated "child" group. Most of the people who post are parents of adult children and not really kids (some might be teen aged). He can even read without joining. I think both Susan's and Laura's has info about transgender which he might be willing to read. There is a film called Trans the movie, just not sure how easy it is to get ahold of. They follow 2 guys and 3 women in their transition. There are several other well-known trans men who are interviewed.
--Jay
Thanks Jay, I'll look them up. I'm gonna leave it for a bit but next time we talk I'll try and give them some resources.
Joey
Quote from: Jeatyn on January 09, 2013, 04:56:29 PM
It is my understanding that actually a very large proportion of trans men choose not to get bottom surgery for a variety of reasons. So basically your dad is talking out his ass and just looking for any reason to stay in denial about you.
Ditto, ditto, ditto.
My understanding is that the majority of FTMs don't opt for bottom surgery, mainly because they consider it unsatisfactory in some way. I've commented before that men's general ignorance when it comes to recognizing what an organic vagina looks like plays a role in both why MTFs tend to opt into bottom surgery (there's also the much greater degree of homophobia to be considered among men vs. women, and a few dozen other reasons why the current state of the art leaves FTMs ambivalent at best about this option. It only presents a very serious issue, when you think about it, when it comes to transmen who identify as gay, and only want a relationship with a man. But there are open-minded gay guys who can fall in love with a guy who doesn't have that particular piece. Not all, to be sure, but some.
A surgically constructed penis, at this point, is not likely to be mistaken for an organically-grown one, unless your potential partner is way beyond naive, and who really wants a stupid partner, or someone that uninformed when it comes to bodies and their parts?
(My ex, though, in her ignorance, has been raising some of these same questions when it comes to what my trans son wants and is ambivalent about... you'd think she'd have done some research by now, but to be fair, she's been more than busy with her career in the time since we separated, and wasn't really expecting to have to deal with having had both a transwoman partner
and a transman child. I was a little surprised myself, but now I'm looking back even at baby pics and I can see it.)
I think Alex about said it all quite perfectly above. Just take your time Joey and don't let anyone pressure you. Just tell your parents you're taking things one step at a time, and bottom surgery is one of the last things on your list to consider.
Quote from: Elspeth on January 09, 2013, 07:42:17 PM
(My ex, though, in her ignorance, has been raising some of these same questions when it comes to what my trans son wants and is ambivalent about... you'd think she'd have done some research by now, but to be fair, she's been more than busy with her career in the time since we separated, and wasn't really expecting to have to deal with having had both a transwoman partner and a transman child. I was a little surprised myself, but now I'm looking back even at baby pics and I can see it.)
Completely off topic, but I wonder if being trans is genetic?
Quote from: Joey4 on January 09, 2013, 04:34:27 PM
He said that if I wanted to be a boy that bad then I'd get it, no matter what the risks are. He also said that nobody would ever want to be in a relationship with someone who is 'half and half' as he called it.
You just gotta love... I mean be incredibly frustrated... at how quickly people jump to moderating behavior. In one breathe they can say they will never understand, and in the next attempt to put up rules and assumptions based on their own limited perspective. It's illogical.
But anyway, to your question. I'm not sure whether I will get bottom surgery. But it does not make me 'less of a man'. Many others have mentioned examples that we would not say to cismen, we're no different.
I do think the options will improve. There was something my therapist told me about, but I'm having a hard time remembering it, mostly because it was mentioned more in passing. I haven't really researched the options we have now, not to the extent of top surgery, so I don't know if what she told me was a new procedure, but it was done outside the country. I'll have ask.
As for the 'half and half' comment well, more behavior policing. I think we all know how much BS that is. Buck Angel disproves this.
Quote from: LearnedHand on January 09, 2013, 08:24:23 PM
I think Alex about said it all quite perfectly above. Just take your time Joey and don't let anyone pressure you. Just tell your parents you're taking things one step at a time, and bottom surgery is one of the last things on your list to consider.
Completely off topic, but I wonder if being trans is genetic?
A mutations on the promoter of the gene that codes for the aromatase enzyme (an enzymes that turn testosterone into estrogen which in turn is a must for the xy-male brain to masculinize) has been shown in MTF, and thus perhaps showing that least genetics may be play a role in the etiology of GID
While I do want bottom surgery quite badly, I understand why you don't feel it's necessary for your transition. Some people do not feel comfortable with the current procedures, and that's reasonable.
It's honestly not your dad's place to say what's best for your transition. If you're comfortable with having top surgery, but not interested in the options available for bottom surgery, that's fine. It's your body, not your father's. It's not his business what surgeries you may or may not have in order to feel more comfortable with yourself. I'd avoid talking to him about it at this point, as it may just result in more fighting.
Elspeth - I'm actually going to argue that a surgically constructed penis can be taken for a biological one with proper healing and time allowed.. Many photos that are shared online are phallos from early healing stages, so they might look "off" or different. Cis men also use sleeves and pumps for erectile dysfunction, and there are many cis men with micro penises or genitals that are just smaller than the norm. They may also need surgical reconstruction via phalloplasty.
Just because you don't look at a dick and say OMGFAKE doesn't mean you're naive or ignorant about body parts or sex, and I think saying as such is kind of offensive.
Quote from: LearnedHand on January 09, 2013, 08:24:23 PM
I think Alex about said it all quite perfectly above. Just take your time Joey and don't let anyone pressure you. Just tell your parents you're taking things one step at a time, and bottom surgery is one of the last things on your list to consider.
Completely off topic, but I wonder if being trans is genetic?
Not trying to hijack a thread, but I think it's entirely plausible. For example, I know there are many personality disorders that are inherited genetically, it just makes sense that other chemical imbalances/disorders could be transferable through genes. We have a plethora of them in our family, from schizoid to bipolar to straight out schizophrenia. I inherited the schizoid from my father, and my cousins on his side are a bit... different. *ahem* And barring genetics, any wonky stuff in the womb can drastically alter the fetus. My buddy's mom took a pregnancy drug that was still in testing, and it completely altered his appearance (and lifespan :(). So yeah, genetics can play a huge role I'm sure. Ya know, they say there's one in every family, and if you don't have one in yours, it's probably you :laugh:
Quote from: Zerro on January 09, 2013, 10:07:03 PM
Elspeth - I'm actually going to argue that a surgically constructed penis can be taken for a biological one with proper healing and time allowed.. Many photos that are shared online are phallos from early healing stages, so they might look "off" or different. Cis men also use sleeves and pumps for erectile dysfunction, and there are many cis men with micro penises or genitals that are just smaller than the norm. They may also need surgical reconstruction via phalloplasty.
True. The last guy to get me to have sex with him had a pretty weird looking one -- fairly certain he's a cismale, as I've known him for close to 20 years and know his wife and children and there is very little doubt to me that his boys are his sons and no one elses. Also, no... you can probably figure out the other reason I'm pretty sure that despite its cosmetic anomalies, I'm just about certain he was born with it.
I'm being catty. It's late. And I still won't forgive him for freezing up on me after flirting for over a year to get me into bed. I have the worst luck with guys, but most of that is probably because I refuse to make it with anyone who doesn't try really, really hard to come onto me.
As for the question of genetics, my case and that of my trans son certainly raises some interesting questions.
For some time I allowed myself to consider some of the environmentally-based theories that were common about the nature of transsexual identities and gender dysphoria. I do have some nagging concerns about the possibility that something else could be going on with me, but a lot of those make even less sense now, since my son came out.
Particularly those that my gay therapist tried to sell me, and that I even volunteered, about being raised in a homophobic, repressive culture. One, the stories were not a perfect fit in that my parents were never as homophobic as my therapist wanted to believe, and my son was dating girls (as a girl) from age 15 onwards, and took 2 different girls to junior and senior prom with the blessings of both me and my ex.
When my ex and I discussed my son's second gender therapist session on my return, in fact, my ex was quite specific about how so much of her concern about his (to her) rapid shift to identifying as a transman (which I don't see as nearly as rapid) has to do with the fact that her friends and peers can deal quite fine with the fact that her child is lesbian, and not so well with a trans identity, though she hopes that level of acceptance will improve over time. If this were being done for external approval, identifying as lesbian would have been the easier choice.
Anyway, there is growing evidence that trans identities (at least those that are strong enough to lead people to seek transition) do have a physical basis, mainly in the brain. I only recently updated myself on this, and most of the research is fairly recent, only one study goes back to 1995, the rest have come out in the last decade.
Whether that is purely genetic or a combination of other factors remains an open question.
Quote from: Joey4 on January 09, 2013, 04:34:27 PM
He said that if I wanted to be a boy that bad then I'd get it, no matter what the risks are.
Even though I want bottom surgery, but I think your father, being a cis male (I'm assuming) he especially has no room to talk. It's your journey, not his. The best thing to do is to agree to disagree.
As far as being transgender being a genetic thing, I think it is highly possible. When my mother had her first two daughters by another man, the worst trait they got was eczema. However, when she had my brother and me with our day, my brother has autism and high blood pressure and I'm borderline for the latter so I wouldn't be surprised if he gave me the "transgender gene" for lack of better words.
I'm a bit of an ass so I probably would have said with enthusiasm, "Sure, Dad, I want the whole package," just to get his reaction.
Because of the previously stated reasons by others, I also am choosing just top surgery.
Quote from: Joey4 on January 09, 2013, 04:34:27 PM
My question is, how many of you have top surgery without bottom surgery and how many of you know you don't want bottom surgery in the future?
Joey
I've had top, no bottom. I know I won't be having bottom in the future no matter what breakthroughs are made. Just not interested. The thought of a scalpel down there... yeah, not having it.
Quote from: Jeatyn on January 09, 2013, 04:56:29 PM
It is my understanding that actually a very large proportion of trans men choose not to get bottom surgery for a variety of reasons. So basically your dad is talking out his ass and just looking for any reason to stay in denial about you.
I don't plan on ever getting lower surgery but top surgery is an absolute 100% necessity. A man is not defined by his genitals.
thread over
Quote from: Malachite on January 09, 2013, 11:12:20 PM
Even though I want bottom surgery, but I think your father, being a cis male (I'm assuming) he especially has no room to talk. It's your journey, not his. The best thing to do is to agree to disagree.
Given your experience with him, and the direction he's taking his counterargument, you may want to hold off on assuming he's cismale. Not saying he is trans, given how little info I have, but we're not always (in fact we are rarely) at ease with ourselves in coming out, so she could be trans and throwing some of her own issues on you, rather than facing up to them in herself.
Not saying you should assume this is so, but it might be worth considering, or keeping it an open question, at least.
While I'm trying to be unreservedly supporting of my trans son's determination to move forward, there are times I've had some reservations that I could have brought up to him, but that seemed pointless to bring up given his mom is already voicing them. I have brought some of them up with my ex, though my aim in doing that was in part to counter her impression that I might be too ready to accept his trans identity for my own reasons (a concern she voiced to me directly -- and that I more or less expected -- during our most recent conversation after my son's 2nd session with his gender therapist).
For me there are also my feelings, expressed before he was born, about my reservations concerning having a male child. I have to acknowledge, for instance, that there's a temptation for me to emphasize the difference or relative uniqueness of his experience, and hang onto those aspects that remain feminine... though last night I did go through one of my albums from when he was a baby and toddler, to see more of the signs that I probably suppressed seeing, at least to some degree.
I certainly can't (and won't) claim that he was ever a typical girl... he was mainly always just himself, but especially after puberty hit, being himself became a much bigger source of conflict, given the changes to his body.
If I were still in heavy denial about myself, though, I could see my reaction being very different, even to the point of obstructive. Sometimes I still wonder whether that's not some part of what's going on within my ex's mind, though it does seem simpler at this point to more simply put it down to her being cisfemale, and helplessly attracted to male bodies only... there are still reasons, however, for me to doubt it's that simple.
Speaking as a parent, I have to wonder just what your dad thinks he's doing even asking you about whether you have any plans for bottom surgery? That's a very disrespectful (and intrusive!) thing for anyone to ask, but particularly a parent.
What you keep in your underwear is entirely your business and whilst I understand his curiosity, I find it slightly disturbing that your dad thinks it's appropriate to even discuss this with you. I wouldn't dream of asking my kids about their own genitals, for crying out loud. It's none of my business and I respect their privacy.
If I were you, I wouldn't discuss this with him any further. I'd tell him that the question is too personal and that you're not willing to discuss it with him. He's taking advantage of the fact that you're still quite young to ask you some inappropriate questions. You're under no obligation to tell him more than you want him to know - particularly about decisions you will make as an adult.
As for me, I'm definitely getting rid of the moobs and I'd at least like a meta, but my urinary system is badly damaged due to childbirth so I'll just have to see what's possible.
Quote from: LearnedHand on January 09, 2013, 08:24:23 PM
Completely off topic, but I wonder if being trans is genetic?
In-ter-es-ting.I've often wondered this myself. I don't want to out them, but I know that a close relative of mine has some sort of dysphoria and appears to be something of a gender non-conformist. Whether they turn out to be trans remains to be seen. I'd be interested to know whether there's a link.
QuoteMy question is, how many of you have top surgery without bottom surgery...
QuoteJust tell your parents you're taking things one step at a time, and bottom surgery is one of the last things on your list to consider.
I don't mean this in a smart alec way, but wouldn't most people who have top surgery do so without bottom surgery?
It's not like we can go forth and get genital surgery right away. The quote above about what to tell your parents reflects this & avoids food for argument. Has your father read the WPATH standards of care yet? Maybe that would be helpful.
I also know someone who's mother is mtf who is mtf/genderqueer/somewhere on the female side of the spectrum. I don't know of anyone in my family who is trans though, so if there is a genetic link they hide it very well. It's only now that people are going to discover something like this though, as not so many generations ago being trans would be a complete unthinkable abomination and people wouldn't be able to make that connection to their ancestors who may have felt similarly.
My Mom and her sister were actually surprised how common it is for transmen to not go through the bottom surgery and frankly, I'm not sure will I ever go through it either. At this moment I do feel like I might need it just to feel more... complete I guess. This opinion might change in the future to not needing it or totally needing it. I'll be waiting, though.
But I do remember when I was watching a tv documentary years ago about Thomas Beatie and Mom commented how he wasn't a man if he still had woman netherregions. That comment still haunts me to this day and I haven't been able to muster up enough to courage to ask her will she think I'll never be a man if I decide not to go to the bottom surgery.
Quote from: Tossu-sama on January 10, 2013, 11:19:42 AM
But I do remember when I was watching a tv documentary years ago about Thomas Beatie and Mom commented how he wasn't a man if he still had woman netherregions. That comment still haunts me to this day and I haven't been able to muster up enough to courage to ask her will she think I'll never be a man if I decide not to go to the bottom surgery.
You're her child so her opinion of you could be different than the opinion she had of Thomas Beatie. I don't know one cis gendered person who thinks of him as a man because he had three children
after he had transitioned. I think people's perception of him would be different if he had done so before transitioning. It's just hard for people to wrap their minds around the concept. To be totally honest (get out your pitchforks), it's hard for ME to understand and I'm trans so I can imagine how confusing it is to people who aren't.
Your Dad has a good way with words lol Doesnt offend me but I just find it shocking how parents who are apparently meant to love and care for their child/children regardless seem to throw out the most spiteful comments. As if your not going to get enough shyte from the world already?
I have had top surgery and I am currently fighting to get Phallo *fingers crossed* things go ahead. I do have worries etc. but for me i feel its the right thing to do.
Its a personal things and say to your Dad just that. It is PERSONAL. He shouldnt really give a shhh what is inbetween your legs anyway. Personally I would just agree with them. "Your f'd up and will be forever alone" lol
Thank you all for your views. It's been really interesting to see what you all think.
Joey
My mom wher all oposite when I told her, she said, I should NOT get a penis. like it would make her mad or something.
-
I don't have bottom surgery, first point is that is nearly imposible to get bottom surgery in my area, and its risky as they only have done around.. 3 surgions or something in 25 years.
when I where a kid I wanted bottom surgery very badly, and I still hear the "your not a real man if you dont have a penis" or "when are you to get a penis commen" I do sort of want it still but I dont want to risk everything like that so be honest I am more in the not-having bottom team.
I think cismen cant really related, its because theyre not used to it like we are.
its like comparing a guy whos afraid of of not being able to see with a guy who been blind for his whole life.
Quote from: Tossu-sama on January 10, 2013, 11:19:42 AM
But I do remember when I was watching a tv documentary years ago about Thomas Beatie and Mom commented how he wasn't a man if he still had woman netherregions. That comment still haunts me to this day and I haven't been able to muster up enough to courage to ask her will she think I'll never be a man if I decide not to go to the bottom surgery.
If you consider the histories and memoirs of the various female-bodied people who lived and often married with people assuming for decades they were men (sorry if I'm overassuming, but to me these people were at least likely to have been trans... one can split hairs on this, though, for decades and some historians have done so) -- what seems to be a common thread is that their spouses (in most of the known cases, those spouses were female) -- would generally report things after their partner's death and "unmasking" that suggested that genitalia played very little role in the relationships -- sure they might have been telling a tale to protect themselves and the truth might have varied from the reports, but above all the partners seem to have reported being very satisfied with those long-term relationships, many of them being marriages that lasted for many decades.
Few people spend that much of their lives engaged in sex acts, and especially without the side-effects of testosterone (which I have to guess was not a factor in these relationships before the 1960s or later) satisfaction and pair bonding in these couples seems to me to have been better in many cases that what's often reported in cisgendered relationships of the same period(s).
It's male sexism that tends to emphasize genitalia to such a degree, when it's pretty much got to be a side issue, except with partners whose top priority is on bearing children.
Just a thought at this odd hour.
I agree with your dad.
Quote from: Xren on December 22, 2013, 04:46:49 PM
I agree with your dad.
So if I don't get bottom surgery that makes me a girl? And nobody will ever love me if I don't get it?
Quote from: Joe. on December 22, 2013, 04:48:46 PM
So if I don't get bottom surgery that makes me a girl? And nobody will ever love me if I don't get it?
No. Your dad is wrong.
Quote from: Xren on December 22, 2013, 04:46:49 PM
I agree with your dad.
If you agree with that view you must be going through some sort of self loathing period at this point. Agreeing with that view is basically calling the majority of transguys (most do not have bottom surgery due to money, the results, or no bottom dysphoria) freaks that nobody would possibly love. Reallllly hope that is not your stance.
Whilst I'm fuming about somebody possibly agreeing with that, I'd like to say that my dad no longer holds these views and he is very accepting of me.
I see no point digging up an old thread just to put someone down and wrongly tell them that they're not a man. Let's hope this is a case of misunderstanding.
Quote from: Joe. on December 22, 2013, 05:42:27 PM
Whilst I'm fuming about somebody possibly agreeing with that, I'd like to say that my dad no longer holds these views and he is very accepting of me.
Oh well that's nice at least! :)
I also want top surgery when I can get time/money/courage/etc to do it, but I have no interest in bottom surgery. I'm asexual and don't have a tremendous amount of dysphoria, so my lower half doesn't really bug me. I'm glad your dad has had this change of heart.
To paraphrase a quote I once heard: Most people aren't worth crying over and the ones that are won't make you cry.
Quote from: Xren on December 22, 2013, 04:46:49 PM
I agree with your dad.
Where the hell do you get off? Given your profile pic, you either haven't transitioned yet or prefer a less conventional gender expression. So why would you come on here, drag up an old thread days before Christmas to tell a young boy you agree that he's not a man if he doesn't want bottom surgery? Are you a man even though you don't look like one?
The only reason that makes sense for you to drag up an old thread like this is you're having a hard time this holiday and decided to take it out on someone else. If that's the case, I'm sorry you're going through a hard time. But I will not allow you to take your problems out on our members. Not to mention how hypocritical this looks.