You know what?
Why should you give a few dollars?
Why should you bother?
You are happy, the site is up, you can ask for help, you can talk to your friends, you are safe here.
The staff will try to help when you need to cut/drug/drink/..... suicide.
Sue will supply it all?
Cindy will open her wallet and say yes to the next years finances?
For the last few years Sue and I have kept this place going. I sit in the background with a chequebook.
But I can't any longer.
I need nothing from this place, I just want to make sure no one suffers as I did in my life, so I have paid big dollars to keep this site going; but I can't any longer.
Please donate.
I cannot financially support this site any longer. My bank account is dry.
YOU HAVE TO OR WE CLOSE.
your choice.
Cindy
Quote from: Cindy. on July 27, 2013, 02:33:34 PM
You know what?
Why should you give a few dollars?
Why should you bother?
You are happy, the site is up, you can ask for help, you can talk to your friends, you are safe here.
The staff will try to help when you need to cut/drug/drink/..... suicide.
Sue will supply it all?
Cindy will open her wallet and say yes to the next years finances?
For the last few years Sue and I have kept this place going. I sit in the background with a chequebook.
But I can't any longer.
I need nothing from this place, I just want to make sure no one suffers as I did in my life, so I have paid big dollars to keep this site going; but I can't any longer.
Please donate.
I cannot financially support this site any longer. My bank account is dry.
YOU HAVE TO OR WE CLOSE.
your choice.
Cindy
If i still had a paypal account, i would've donated a bit, but i deleted mine in a fit of rage. It's a long story.
Dear Sue and Cindy, Thank you for all you have done to keep this place alive, but you should never have dried up your bank accounts. I wish you had asked for donations before now. You both deserve a round of applause for your efforts here. I donated what I could afford and once I get my life on track I plan on becoming a subscriber. I hope that Susan's will be here for many years to come as it has been a valuable asset to me.
Love to all,
Bethany
Cindy, I like you. And I agree that Susan has done a great thing and deserves our help. But I find this post to be a bit insulting and condescending to those who are legitimately broke and unable to donate. You make it sound as though, we don't care and have no desire to help. I would gladly contribute if I had the money. The thing is I don't. Yes, this site is amazing and everything that Susan has done is great. I do appreciate it and would like to give back. But if I am poor and have nothing to give, should I be emotionally blackmailed into doing something I can't. It's not like I don't care. I don't have it. I'm sorry but I am in a bad place and $10 a month WOULD actually hurt me. Again, I thank you for everything that you have provided. I mean that. But its not my choice about donating. I don't have a choice.
I did, however, offer what I could to help the site in terms of volunteering. The offer remains because I want this site to thrive and I'd like to contribute. If there is something else I can help out with, I will gladly do so, but I can't grow a non-existent money tree.
Sorry if I took this too personally, but I found it a little insulting to say that all of us not subscribing are shrugging our shoulders saying "why should we care". And as a moderator who knows the personalities of most the members here, I hope you don't think so little of us as people.
LtL
Honey I would never ever ever insult anyone.
I will continue to help, I will continue for people like you who have hit a bad time.
Sadly it is those who are most in need who feel most and in many cases help most. I run a soup kitchen for the homeless (don't ask why I'm just mad) the people who man it are themselves homeless. The people with homes don't care. Or seem not to.
I want to raise awareness among those who can help. I never want to hurt those who need.
Of that you have my soul.
I will still donate, in spite of the tone (reverse psychology?) of the OP...but yes, donations should have been asked the day expenses went over, say, $1,000 USD. And in fact we did ask how to donate some months ago, and we were told to keep our britches on, for lack of a better way to describe it.
:P
Quote from: Cindy. on July 27, 2013, 03:04:42 PM
LtL
Honey I would never ever ever insult anyone.
I will continue to help, I will continue for people like you who have hit a bad time.
Sadly it is those who are most in need who feel most and in many cases help most. I run a soup kitchen for the homeless (don't ask why I'm just mad) the people who man it are themselves homeless. The people with homes don't care. Or seem not to.
I want to raise awareness among those who can help. I never want to hurt those who need.
Of that you have my soul.
No offense taken. Again, once I have the ability to give, I will. For now, I can only offer you assistance through other means such as volunteering my time if needed. I hate when I am powerless to help and wish I could assist you guys. I do hope your subscriber model will be successful and that this site continues to thrive.
It's an Australian pep talk! The fact is, the site is here to help people, and it does that admirably. I am glad to be in a position to help, because I understand that keeping the site going helps others. I'll reinforce what learningtolive mentioned, the contribution doesn't have to be money. Volunteering your time to help keep this lifesaving place running is a good way to help, and it won't cost anything. Help how you can, but please help. Hugs, Devlyn
I want to support the site (especially since i seem to be on the road to transition and ill need the help of my sisters here) but my wife just lost her job and things are squeaky tight right now. Hopefully I can soon.
I wish i had more money to give, i truly do, but i don't even have a job. I think i read someone already mention ads, so maybe....
What is 5 bucks?
It's barely anything. It won't buy me lunch.
There are no books, no models, no games (outside of schlock on Android) I can't think of anything of value I can get with 5 bucks other than to give it to Susan.
Come on people, it's 5 bucks, it isn't that much, but collectively, if we gave Susan a lousy 5 bucks a month it would really matter.
If you can't give Susan a lousy 5 bucks, then I defy you to explain how you can waste it on internet service. Come on, it's just 5 bucks.
I might not be able to the subscriber thing and oh boohoo I miss out on a special hand shake private forum. But I likely will be able to do the random once a month 5 buck donation. My Paypal fluctuates too randomly, I never know when I might have the 5 bucks. But I can't picture going a whole month and not being able to find a lousy 5 bucks.
Cindy asked a good question and I understand why she asked it the way she asked it and it was not meant to be insulting and it wasn't.
The question is why, and the answer begins at the top of the forum home page and ends at the bottom of the home page.
Is that worth a lousy 5 bucks to you?
I feel like I'm making excuses, but in 41 days time I'm going to be out of my parents house and fending for myself for the first time, and I have no idea how much things are going to cost. I don't even know the price of a loaf of bread, except they're normally 12p around fifteen minutes before the shop closes and it's about to go past it's best before date. If I knew my financial future then I would contribute, but I don't. It's probably going to be better, but maybe that's just wishful thinking...
Thank you for everyone who is donating though, and don't think too harshly on those who are aware it would be an irrational decision to donate money they might desperately need now, or in the near future. And as for what 5 bucks will buy, £3.25 would easily buy me lunch, or on a good day I could have got lunch and to college and back. It'll almost buy me the pillowcases I need to get.
Cindy, I am happy to donate. You don't need reverse psychology, but what you could do is give us a link!! I looked on the front page, nothing. I think that a site this big should be supported by it's participants. Obviously they are people who can't afford to, but there are others that can, and others that could donate a few dollars-- spread it around.
--Jay
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on July 27, 2013, 05:48:55 PM
What is 5 bucks?
It's barely anything. It won't buy me lunch.
There are no books, no models, no games (outside of schlock on Android) I can't think of anything of value I can get with 5 bucks other than to give it to Susan.
Come on people, it's 5 bucks, it isn't that much, but collectively, if we gave Susan a lousy 5 bucks a month it would really matter.
If you can't give Susan a lousy 5 bucks, then I defy you to explain how you can waste it on internet service. Come on, it's just 5 bucks.
I might not be able to the subscriber thing and oh boohoo I miss out on a special hand shake private forum. But I likely will be able to do the random once a month 5 buck donation. My Paypal fluctuates too randomly, I never know when I might have the 5 bucks. But I can't picture going a whole month and not being able to find a lousy 5 bucks.
Cindy asked a good question and I understand why she asked it the way she asked it and it was not meant to be insulting and it wasn't.
The question is why, and the answer begins at the top of the forum home page and ends at the bottom of the home page.
Is that worth a lousy 5 bucks to you?
Maybe five bucks won't buy you lunch....but I can feed my family of three for that.
And how do I justify paying for internet? Simple....I'm not the one paying for it.
I have to say I'm perpetually broke. I have a child on the way (due in 1 MONTH). I have HRT to pay for, and medication to buy...I have over 50 farm animals to feed, and we're constantly juggling funds to keep our property, to keep fed, and to keep moving forward...I have priorities, and donating money to ANYTHING just isn't high enough on that list. Perhaps if things were better I would donate...but they're not.
Does being broke because I have a life and family and we're all struggling to keep afloat make me unworthy to set my eyes upon this forum?
Some of us just can't swing it. I'm not happy about that fact, and nobody should be, but it's a fact nonetheless.
I appreciate what everyone does to keep this site running. I wish I could afford to help out financially. I hope the others on this board are more understanding.
Calm down, we're still a support site. Susan has stated that the site will remain free for everyone with the exception of one subforum. The doors aren't being closed on anyone. No one is being judged. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 27, 2013, 06:42:39 PM
Calm down, we're still a support site. Susan has stated that the site will remain free for everyone with the exception of one subforum. The doors aren't being closed on anyone. No one is being judged. Hugs, Devlyn
Just testing the waters. If more people feel that way, I'd gladly move on. I mean, even if the site remained free, but I'd be looked down on for being unable to donate, I wouldn't want to stick around. I don't want to stick around somewhere I'm not welcome, even if I'm still permitted to be there.
I look at it this way. I come here every day - not just to moderate, but to learn and grow. I have made wonderful friends here. I have found love and support when I needed it the most.
Is this site worth 35 cents per day? You bet it is.
I think we all realize that times are tough, with a worldwide recession that has lasted more than four years. It sucks. Two years ago I had a $3 million solar deal fall through because of the economy.
I know that many of us are on fixed incomes. In 2004, I was making a salary in six figures. Then I got sick. I still have a mortgage, kids in college, medical expenses, all the normal bills any home owner has. Right now I am at a just break even point. But this place is a priority.
I will happily economize to help others here. I will be glad to do a little more, because I can. In return, I would hope that other members can find a few extra dollars in their budget. 17 cents per day works out to $5 per month.
I am trying to think of ways to raise money for the site. I think, if we brainstorm the problem, we can find solutions. Who can help me?
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on July 27, 2013, 05:48:55 PM
What is 5 bucks?
It's barely anything. It won't buy me lunch.
There are no books, no models, no games (outside of schlock on Android) I can't think of anything of value I can get with 5 bucks other than to give it to Susan.
Come on people, it's 5 bucks, it isn't that much, but collectively, if we gave Susan a lousy 5 bucks a month it would really matter.
If you can't give Susan a lousy 5 bucks, then I defy you to explain how you can waste it on internet service. Come on, it's just 5 bucks.
I might not be able to the subscriber thing and oh boohoo I miss out on a special hand shake private forum. But I likely will be able to do the random once a month 5 buck donation. My Paypal fluctuates too randomly, I never know when I might have the 5 bucks. But I can't picture going a whole month and not being able to find a lousy 5 bucks.
Cindy asked a good question and I understand why she asked it the way she asked it and it was not meant to be insulting and it wasn't.
The question is why, and the answer begins at the top of the forum home page and ends at the bottom of the home page.
Is that worth a lousy 5 bucks to you?
In the grand scheme of things 5 or 10 dollars a month is not going to break most people. If you have stability, tou should be able to make it. For those whi don't, it's more complex. I have money saved up, but not really anything I can spare at rhe moment. I don't buy games, books or go out for lunch. I use what I have as an investment for my future. Transitioning hasn't heen cheap for me and I have other expenses comibg in that have hurt. I am 24 and searching fir meaningful employment, bur haven't found it yet. I may not be able to live at home in rhe future, because my family does not approve, and will likely have to pay around $1000 monthly for rent. These are expensive costs for me. Besides that I have applications fir grad school to pay which will cost me around $500 dollars. So you are right that the cist here isn't much, but sime of us can't do it rifhr now. I'm not being stingy. I have no money to spare. Keep in mind 5 dollars is close to an hourly wage for many Americans. If you don't live rhat reality, good for you. But try ro emphasize with those who do.
Having said that, when or if I can ever contribute monetarily I will. But I can't add more on my plate even though its a small amount because I do not have it. Im in a shaky place right now. Again, yiu need help with volunteering or site assistance, I will do what you need. But I don't like being seen as cheap or unhelpful when I don't have rhe ability to donate money. Therw are others here whi feel the same. Give us rhe benefit of 5he doubt.
Quote from: Jamie D on July 27, 2013, 08:12:25 PM
I look at it this way. I come here every day - not just to moderate, but to learn and grow. I have made wonderful friends here. I have found love and support when I needed it the most.
Is this site worth 35 cents per day? You bet it is.
I think we all realize that times are tough, with a worldwide recession that has lasted more than four years. It sucks. Two years ago I had a $3 million solar deal fall through because of the economy.
I know that many of us are on fixed incomes. In 2004, I was making a salary in six figures. Then I got sick. I still have a mortgage, kids in college, medical expenses, all the normal bills any home owner has. Right now I am at a just break even point. But this place is a priority.
I will happily economize to help others here. I will be glad to do a little more, because I can. In return, I would hope that other members can find a few extra dollars in their budget. 17 cents per day works out to $5 per month.
I am trying to think of ways to raise money for the site. I think, if we brainstorm the problem, we can find solutions. Who can help me?
As I said before, this site is worth that, but I'm not in the position to donate at rhe moment. I can help other ways, but rhis something I can't do.
Cindy, how do I go about donating? Paypal? Or some other method?
???
Quote from: gennee on July 27, 2013, 08:48:35 PM
Cindy, how do I go about donating? Paypal? Or some other method?
???
You're the second person who's asked that. My version of the site has Donation and Subscription links at the top of every page, above the posts. Hugs, Devlyn
Calmragemusic and others,
You do NOT need a paypal account to donate or subscribe. Just click the appropriate link and have a credit or debit card. It really is just that easy.
Don't have $10 or $20 dollars? Pay 5. Don't always have enough for a recurring subscription? Then subscribe the months when you can.
Susan has made it very easy for people to help with what they can in any way they can.
I honor those who say the will contribute to keep the site open...Jamie expressed that the site will remain open but will be trimmed back. I have only been on site for 2 weeks and read so much about different ways people see themselves and the way others see them. I have transitioned more these past few weeks that I ever thought possible and look forward to starting my life fresh again with the support and understanding I have here!!!
Quote from: learningtolive on July 27, 2013, 08:41:21 PM
In the grand scheme of things 5 or 10 dollars a month is not going to break most people. If you have stability, tou should be able to make it. For those who don't, it's more complex. I have money saved up, but not really anything I can spare at the moment. I don't buy games, books or go out for lunch. I use what I have as an investment for my future. Transitioning hasn't been cheap for me and I have other expenses coming in that have hurt. I am 24 and searching for meaningful employment, but haven't found it yet. I may not be able to live at home in the future, because my family does not approve, and will likely have to pay around $1000 monthly for rent. These are expensive costs for me. Besides that I have applications fir grad school to pay which will cost me around $500 dollars. So you are right that the cist here isn't much, but some of us can't do it right now. I'm not being stingy. I have no money to spare. Keep in mind 5 dollars is close to an hourly wage for many Americans. If you don't live that reality, good for you. But try to empathize with those who do.
Having said that, when or if I can ever contribute monetarily I will. But I can't add more on my plate even though its a small amount because I do not have it. Im in a shaky place right now. Again, you need help with volunteering or site assistance, I will do what you need. But I don't like being seen as cheap or unhelpful when I don't have the ability to donate money. There are others here who feel the same. Give us the benefit of the doubt.
As I said before, this site is worth that, but I'm not in the position to donate at the moment. I can help other ways, but this something I can't do.
That's alright. I'm paying it forward. You're smart. You'll get employed. Someday, down the road, you will be able to. That's what community is about.
Thanks Cindy and Susan, and everyone else who made this site possible over the years. :)
While I am also short on funds, just like others here, working a job that doesn't pay much and trying to pay for school and so on, I'm more than willing to cut a little in my normal routine to help contribute to the site. While I am aware not everyone can cut their budgets any more, I am happy to consolidate a few errands to save a few bucks on gas which I can then use to donate to the site. Since coming here I've learned a lot about myself, about the T in LGBT, met a lot of friends, and had a lot of fun in the last few months. I also would rather have Susan's ad-free, since I normally avoid sites that have a lot of ads in them since they annoy me and seem to slow down the site.
No one here is trying to make anyone who absolutely can't afford to donate anything feel bad or thinking less of you, but sometimes those who can afford need a little encouragement (anyone here listen to National Public Radio or watch public television? Now, they're good at guilt-tripping you :) ) and reminders.
I'm not sure what my job status will be in one year. Either I'll be informed that I have a long-term position with some job security and bennies, or I will be in deep tunafish and unable to cover my basic expenses without unemployment insurance and the modest savings I've accrued by being conservative and stingy these past few years.
With such uncertainty, I'm understandably leery of contributing much, and, indeed, I contributed only a token amount when I found out that the donation portal was up and running.
But this year, I could afford to buy new glasses (on insurance, but my portion wasn't cheap), adopt a new cat who requires expensive prescription food, and pay for extensive repairs on my car (with more on the way later this year). I still go to therapy every week and have my own place with no roommates. Except for the cat, I consider all of these things to be necessities at the moment. And the cat...well, he desperately needed a home after being at the adoption agency for over a year. People just don't tend to adopt animals with health issues. So I felt that I had to adopt him. It was the right thing to do. Call him a necessity.
Now I'm rethinking my definitions. Susan's Place keeps me afloat between therapy visits...so this place is a necessity. I've just gotten used to the idea of its being free. At the moment, I'm actually making a bit more than I spend. I'm saving up for the possible crisis next year, but if I do lose my job, I'll need Susan's even more than I do now. I'm better off right now than a lot of y'all. So I guess I'll make another donation to make up for some of you who can't.
Quote from: Oriah on July 27, 2013, 07:12:07 PM
Just testing the waters. If more people feel that way, I'd gladly move on. I mean, even if the site remained free, but I'd be looked down on for being unable to donate, I wouldn't want to stick around. I don't want to stick around somewhere I'm not welcome, even if I'm still permitted to be there.
I think, opinions are mixed on this one. That's the reason many projects break down just the time they could start to make money.
That said I hope it's different here and nothing breaks down. While I understand the people who paid until now (and emptied their bank accounts for it), I also understand people like Oriah who are broke and have things with higher priority. Currently I loose about 40 bucks a day due to my income being a little more than what I have to pay on a regular basis; paying for food nets the rest and I'm loosing money each month.
I know that I will be paid more starting Feb 2014. That's what my labor agreement tells me. I have to somehow survive to that point because starting then I will have a net plus each month. That will make my bank account become fluid again with each day.
Additionally being in this situation we are in comes with many costs. Given that we are here because that's almost top priority for us (as we even risk loosing our family in the process), I bet everyone understands that the forum is less of a priority than transitioning itself. Paying for childs and whatever is needed by the law should have an even higher priority given that either minors depend on it or our own freedom and safety.
That leaves me with pretty much things with a higher priority. I'd also judge nobody for having this or that with a higher priority, too. That means, some are able to pay and some aren't. If that means this place is going to collapse, so be it. It would be sad, but I wouldn't encourage anybody to loose home, job, childs or family to save a forum on the internet. Even for this place here it isn't worth it.
I totally understand why this thread was started. But I also understand that it may upset people; but I just hope, that anger will fade and the forum will be saved.
TL;DR
From my point of view it seems totally okay, that the admins want to get some bucks for saving the forum while it's also okay that some users aren't able to pay.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on July 27, 2013, 09:46:53 PM
It's important to always do what you can.
You are never required to do any more than you can.
I wasn't going to say anything, but I am honestly really surprised (and slightly irked) at how many people are defensive when donations are mentioned and get all up in arms about why they can't donate.
If you can't afford it, don't donate! No one is going to think any less of you. I think Cindy just made this topic to demonstrate just how much it costs to run this site, for those who CAN and WANT to donate. It's not a requirement, Susan has left many areas of this site free for those who need to access it but can't afford to access the Just for Us section.
I mean sheesh.
My post was to motivate and it seems to have helped little bit.
If you don't have money don't donate. I don't want you too.
Some of you know what I have done and I will continue to do that.
Susan and I will keep the site going for all members. It is her site and her mission is to help people.
I will keep supporting her because I'm also driven to help people less fortunate than I.
But if you can help please do. How much and how little does not matter. Everything helps.
And of course helping run the site as a staff member is also essential.
And arguing and bickering does not help me in anyway what so ever. So don't.
Quote from: Ketchup Packet on July 28, 2013, 02:19:59 AM
If you can't afford it, don't donate! No one is going to think any less of you. I think Cindy just made this topic to demonstrate just how much it costs to run this site, for those who CAN and WANT to donate. It's not a requirement, Susan has left many areas of this site free for those who need to access it but can't afford to access the Just for Us section.
I think, I misunderstood her post as being aggressive. Seems to be a language problem since I'm no native speaker. My apologizes.
With some explaining, this thread seems to be nothing to worry about. It totally makes sense that whoever can afford it, should consider a donation or subscription.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 27, 2013, 03:24:40 PM
It's an Australian pep talk! The fact is, the site is here to help people, and it does that admirably. I am glad to be in a position to help, because I understand that keeping the site going helps others. I'll reinforce what learningtolive mentioned, the contribution doesn't have to be money. Volunteering your time to help keep this lifesaving place running is a good way to help, and it won't cost anything. Help how you can, but please help. Hugs, Devlyn
A lot like New Joisey speak where in the pre-PC days sarcasm ruled.
Perhaps it's me, but I knew/hoped(?) from the title of the thread that it was exactly what I read. Tough Love. I have no doubt Cindy knows many on this site are just scraping by and cannot spare a few bucks. However others can for exactly the reasons she said. Servers/hosting costs money. All the GB of storage needed for the site and the forums costs money.
I am surprised that there wasn't a "Donate" button on the main page as many other sites have. So much for my "Rich Benefactor" theory as to why not.
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on July 27, 2013, 05:48:55 PM
If you can't give Susan a lousy 5 bucks, then I defy you to explain how you can waste it on internet service. Come on, it's just 5 bucks.
This sentence really bugs me. Internet access is pretty rapidly becoming less of a luxury and more of a necessity, and considering the wealth of benefits it brings, the cost is almost always worth it. Heck, it pays for itself pretty damn quickly.
At any rate, fortunately I'm not in too much trouble financially as things stand, so will certainly be donating a little. This site is excellent, and it would be a damn shame to see it disappear.
"I urge all, to dig deep, really deep, deep down, and not let any of our easier excuses to sway us. Suffer a bit even, go without a bit maybe, take the 5 bucks you might have spent on a possibly acceptable routine use, and tell Susan 'thanks for going without on our behalf'.
That's the core of my message. Susan went without, when she didn't need to. She has not demanded, and I am not demanding.But I am asking, even if she is not asking, to consider, what have you gained beyond spending some time just reading stuff while you have been here."
Well done, Lesley!
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on July 28, 2013, 08:00:52 AMI really don't think there really is anyone here, that can't find 5 bucks in truth. Not one of us.
Well, I can't since money is so tight right now that I am struggling to scrape together enough to feed us for the next month. But hey, your whole post convinced me that donating five bucks to a website is totally worth the equivalent of five buck going towards feeding my almost four year old son. (That was sarcastic in case anyone is worried that I would do such a thing.)
But I should stop talking since I'm angry (aka likely to say things that will get me in trouble) and I don't have to explain myself to you anyway.
Hey everyone, it's okay, this site is supposed to be about supporting one another. Let's stop arguing about whether or not some people can afford to donate a few bucks or not. We all have something to contribute, whether it's money, time volunteering, or just being an active member who contributes to interesting discussions. :)
We wouldn't need people to donate if we didn't have a large group of active members; we wouldn't need volunteers if the only members were those who donated since the number of people is few; so non-donating/non-volunteering members are essential to this site as well.
Ladies and gentlemen,
All Cindy is asking is if you can donate, please do. Anything will help. Just a bit of math. If everyone, who could, gave a dollar that would be over $6800 per month.
Now granted some can not, such as myself. But all that is being asked is to donate WHEN and IF you can.
And as a sub note, Monday I have an interview for a job. Please wish me special thoughts.
This thread has taken a very ugly turn. Unfortunately, I may have unintentionally had a part in it. My goal was to point out rhat some of us do have limitations. Sometimes people find it hard to understand, so I rried to explain. It was not to get everyone riled up and fighting. I agree wirh the above sentiments, if you can donate please do so. This site has been an amazing resource and it is well worth rhe donation if you can do it.
Let's not have a civil war when the intention of Susan is to save and expand the site. It's not worth it. Well...unless I can be rhe rebel princess. Then I am taking this site down, lol.
P.s Ms.Obrien, good luck on the interview.
I would also further suggest rhe site begins to place ads on it. Every Web site does so. It makes no sense to hold off on this any longer if you are in debt. I will gladly disable my adblocker for this site if you do it. That will bring in further revenue in conjunction with the donations.
Quote from: learningtolive on July 28, 2013, 11:45:12 AM
I would also further suggest rhe site begins to place ads on it. Every Web site does so. It makes no sense to hold off on this any longer if you are in debt. I will gladly disable my adblocker for this site if you do it. That will bring in further revenue in conjunction with the donations.
This is true. The site needs to start acting with more business sense than charity sense. It looks like it's stuck in the 90's. It needs an update.
Quote from: Ms. OBrien CVT on July 28, 2013, 10:49:14 AM
Ladies and gentlemen,
All Cindy is asking is if you can donate, please do. Anything will help. Just a bit of math. If everyone, who could, gave a dollar that would be over $6800 per month.
Now granted some can not, such as myself. But all that is being asked is to donate WHEN and IF you can.
And as a sub note, Monday I have an interview for a job. Please wish me special thoughts.
I always have special thoughts for you, hon. Knock 'em dead! Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Lesley_Roberta on July 28, 2013, 08:00:52 AM
I really don't think there really is anyone here, that can't find 5 bucks in truth. Not one of us.
That's a bold statement. You've got a lot of gaul. I don't have a single pair of shoes that fit me. I can't afford a bra in my size. I DON'T HAVE $5 TO SPARE RIGHT NOW!
Please, this thread is meant to help the site, which means continuing to help people. Let's not argue, and if you must argue, please take it private. Hugs, Devlyn
Quote from: Oriah on July 28, 2013, 12:32:44 PM
That's a bold statement. You've got a lot of gaul. I don't have a single pair of shoes that fit me. I can't afford a bra in my size. I DON'T HAVE $5 TO SPARE RIGHT NOW!
While Lesley may have come across as harsh, let's not get upset. I am sure the majority of people on this site have been in situations where they've not been able to spare even a dollar, and it's not something one will easily forget (I'll never forget having to pay my rent on my credit card and wondering where I'll live when I am homeless, that was a time in my life where I couldn't donate even a buck), no one here is trying to get people who can't afford to donate to donate.
Oriah (or maybe it was someone else. . . ), I know you expressed concerns on not feeling welcome if you don't donate. Everyone is welcome here, just ignore or report people you think might be making things hostile. No one (besides Susan) knows who is a subscriber, people can donate as anonymous, so none of the regular members here can tell who decided to donate and who did not.
Wow, I can't believe how defensive some people are getting. No one meant to insult anyone in asking the users to support the site. If you don't have it, it was made clear that you aren't the one being asked. Too many here are looking WAY to hard for something to get offended about which seems like a reoccurring theme I see in the trans community.
Quote from: Dreams2014 on July 28, 2013, 11:50:49 AM
This is true. The site needs to start acting with more business sense than charity sense. It looks like it's stuck in the 90's. It needs an update.
Indeed, those are some of the updates planned for the future.
Susan wrote in another post, "I am so excited about what the future holds for the site. The new design, which will cost thousands of dollars to do right, will bring us up in terms of usability as well as being appealing to the eye. It will also give us a consistent framework and look throughout the site."
Quote from: JessicaH on July 28, 2013, 12:58:40 PM
Wow, I can't believe how defensive some people are getting. No one meant to insult anyone in asking the users to support the site. If you don't have it, it was made clear that you aren't the one being asked. Too many here are looking WAY to hard for something to get offended about which seems like a reoccurring theme I see in the trans community.
Maybe you don't know what it is like to be poor and wonder when you're next meal is coming. I don't think Cindy's OP was offensive at all just a call to arms in strong words. But when someone says they can't afford to right now and then someone else says "I really don't think there is anyone who can't find five dollars" it is offensive. Why not just say let them eat cake. That is the mindset.
That being said perhaps to be able to send PMs you have to make a one time donation of $1. Maybe not. Another thing that can be done is to delete some of the posts pre-2008. Or to limit the size of images and avatars. If everyone uses a 5 MB image it will take about much space. I used to run a magazine and the publisher said that most of space was taken up by images. Or limit the amount of times one can post images per month without incurring a fee.
That being said let's hope this money debate ends and let's look for constructive ways to help the site limit costs.
Best of luck, Ms. Obrien! ^-^
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 28, 2013, 02:13:57 PM
Another thing that can be done is to delete some of the posts pre-2008.
The history is too valuable. There are some other good ideas you have there though.
QuoteOr to limit the size of images and avatars. If everyone uses a 5 MB image it will take about much space. I used to run a magazine and the publisher said that most of space was taken up by images. Or limit the amount of times one can post images per month without incurring a fee.
That being said let's hope this money debate ends and let's look for constructive ways to help the site limit costs.
I can donate the second week of August and monthly after that. Should I choose a subscription over a donation so that it's reoccurring? And what's with this private sub forum? What goes on in there?
Quote from: randomroads on July 28, 2013, 02:59:22 PM
I can donate the second week of August and monthly after that. Should I choose a subscription over a donation so that it's reoccurring? And what's with this private sub forum? What goes on in there?
Some weird Freemason like stuff probably.
Quote from: randomroads on July 28, 2013, 02:59:22 PM
I can donate the second week of August and monthly after that. Should I choose a subscription over a donation so that it's reoccurring? And what's with this private sub forum? What goes on in there?
Quote from: Dreams2014 on July 28, 2013, 03:02:16 PM
Some weird Freemason like stuff probably.
There was a Moderator Battle Royale between JamieD and myself on the first day! Well, I ran screaming like a little girl, but that's beside the point.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 28, 2013, 03:08:05 PM
There was a Moderator Battle Royale between JamieD and myself on the first day! Well, I ran screaming like a little girl, but that's beside the point.
You don't drink the blood of cis females do you?
I see this from both sides as I run my own non-profit organization literally on a shoestring - I'm on welfare, there's currently no funding and running costs account for roughly 50% of my income, just so people know where I'm coming from. Plus I'm on welfare to work and my major source of income a small amount of funding for riot recovery work (which I've almost completed) vanished into thin air thanks to austerity and spending cuts.
I think a couple of people need to step back and seriously think about their approach here considering that you are approaching the users of the website.
Almost everyone is pretty choosy with their altruism, and this includes the kind souls who give up their time, energy, ideas, and material resources who are the lifeblood of the dot org community.
But even then people still operate out of self-interest. As this thread has shown if you lay it on heavy people are going to get their panties in a bunch. If you start guilt-tripping users who up to this point have been led to believe that they have free access to a support site you're going to start losing users, and from this traffic.
I'm going to suggest a different approach. I don't have any spare money and I don't have that much time. But there are other ways.
For example if I could find a transguy close to London interested in acting and also a musician (anywhere) to collaborate with I'm pretty sure that I could come up with a short film which could be used to make a one off donation.
You'll need to learn around a dozen or so lines of script and be available over a weekend (Saturday and Sunday) for filming, but you'll get a credit and will be able to tell people that you've been in a movie. If you're interested PM me and I will reveal all.
See how it works? I'm sure I'm not the only creative person here using this site, in fact I'm sure I'm not. This is something I spoke about a few weeks ago with some actors and I see something positive here, a chance to create a short movie to raise awareness on trans issues whilst raising a bit of dosh for this website.
I could say everybody knows somebody, but I'm not going to fall into that trap. Maybe some of you are well connected enough to arrange a screening and pass round a hat. If you're not for a one off donation to the website you get a short movie.
I'm happy to send the finished product to those who run the site and they can sell it with my blessing to raise funds.
I don't have to be the only one doing this either. How many of you are sitting in front of a computer with your own creative works sitting on your hard disk?
Just a suggestion.
Stella, a video sounds like an awesome idea, too bad I am on the other side of the pond. I hope you find some actors. :)
I would sincerely hate to see ads on this site. I tend to quit sites with ads.
Quote from: LordKAT on July 28, 2013, 03:48:51 PM
I would sincerely hateto se eads on this site. I tend to quit sites with ads.
Unfortunately that may be the price for keeping the site alive. Websites don't pay for themselves.
No, the idea of subscriptions and donations is to avoid the ads. If you only knew how much time we spend removing spam from this site. Susan has kept it ad free all along, like LordKat, I too would hate to see that end.
I'm not going to lie, when I first saw this post I was thinking woah ok then. When the idea of subscriptions came in to see the just for us board, I was fairly upset. I had no idea how I was going to afford to donate, let alone subscribe. I felt really guilty about the whole thing. However, I've been thinking hard about this the past few days. This site has been here for me whenever I've needed it. I've made friends on here who mean a lot to me, I've contacted people in the middle of the night when I've felt like giving up. This site is my family and it has quite honestly saved my life. If it went, I don't know what I'd do. Susan has kept this running for so long off her own back. She didn't have to, she still doesn't have to now. If I have to go without something every month then that's what I'm going to have to do. This site means more to me than a lot of things.
I know not everybody can, and I completely understand where people are coming from, so I don't want people to feel guilty if they can't donate. Together as the strong family we are, we can keep this site going. There will be months where I may not be able to subscribe/donate, but somebody else can, and there will be months where some people can't donate but I can. It doesn't matter if you can't donate or subscribe all the time, nobody is asking that. But when you can, please do, and we can keep Susan's alive as a family.
No ads, please!!!
I go to another support site (not trans) that is ad-free, and that is one thing I like about it. It's always a jolt when I move from Susan's and that other site to, say, news sites that have ads and popups all over the place. When I'm in need--that is, when I need support--the last thing I want to see is ads.
I know that I can block popups, but I didn't know I could block any old ads...that doesn't seem possible. Is it?
You can block ads with an adblocker. I don't want to promote any particular ones, but they have extensions available for Firefox and Chrome that will allow one to be ad free. Of course, blocking them prevents the site from collecting revenue on that Ad. I don't see the big deal about putting some ads on the site. As long as it isn't intrusive, it will be a great way to collect revenue. The subscriber and donation model (alone) may not be sustainable long term. While there are some frequent users here, there are too many casual users. Also, when services go premium you run the risk of losing traffic which hurts the overall long term stability of the site. Donations and subscriptions are fine, and I hope it works out long term, but I think there needs to be a more stable business plan in motion to ensure the site remains. Charity isn't likely to do it alone. That doesn't work for most other sites on the web. And this site gets decent traffic and continues to grow. The ad revenue would likely cut many of the costs off for Susan. It makes sense.
Quote from: learningtolive on July 28, 2013, 08:03:05 PM
You can block ads with an adblocker. I don't want to promote any particular ones, but they have extensions available for Firefox and Chrome that will allow one to be ad free. Of course, blocking them prevents the site from collecting revenue on that Ad. I don't see the big deal about putting some ads on the site. As long as it isn't intrusive, it will be a great way to collect revenue. The subscriber and donation model (alone) may not be sustainable long term. While there are some frequent users here, there are too many casual users. Also, when services go premium you run the risk of losing traffic which hurts the overall long term stability of the site. Donations and subscriptions are fine, and I hope it works out long term, but I think there needs to be a more stable business plan in motion to ensure the site remains. Charity isn't likely to do it alone. That doesn't work for most other sites on the web. And this site gets decent traffic and continues to grow. The ad revenue would likely cut many of the costs off for Susan. It makes sense.
You must be kidding! That ad in the top right corner of the page is already driving me crazy
Wondering how many people just scrolled up. <running away>
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 28, 2013, 08:22:59 PMWondering how many people just scrolled up. <running away>
I scrolled down...
I think the other site I go to is largely funded by a government grant. I would have to check.
No one's told me which I should do. I guess I'll just donate and then hope I remember to do it monthly.
Quote from: learningtolive on July 28, 2013, 08:03:05 PM
The subscriber and donation model (alone) may not be sustainable long term. While there are some frequent users here, there are too many casual users. Also, when services go premium you run the risk of losing traffic which hurts the overall long term stability of the site. Donations and subscriptions are fine, and I hope it works out long term, but I think there needs to be a more stable business plan in motion to ensure the site remains. Charity isn't likely to do it alone.
Exactly. There simply are not enough frequent users. I am lazy so I won't count but it wouldn't be hard to go thru the FTM and MTF and Transgender boards (The three most popular I believe) and figure out how many regular users there are. It is prolly less than 100. There are many, many casual users.How many make it over 100 posts?
Then there is the risk of alienating regular users. Say I am a subscriber and one day I get called sir and I'm all upset, I post a pic in a vanity thread and got like one reply. Then someone signs up, posts a pic, and gets 10 posts fawning all over her. I can tell you right now if I am paying for the site and something like that happens, I would leave. Then I'd be doubly upset: I not only got called sir then the one place I can come to disses me after I have been donating and fawns over some random person who will post once and then never come back.
Now, I'm not saying it is okay and that is rtaher selfish of me to say this but I can tell you I know myself and I know how emotional I am and this would bother me. Luckily, I am becoming more accepting of how I look and becoming okay with the fact that I pass and all but I can see something like this happening not just to me but someone else. I am not saying we should make the vanity threads a pay option but I'm sure most of the regular users here know how much of a double-edged sword they can be. They are sorely needed but then again they can hurt and people get hurt.
They same thing could happen to someone who just needed advice on a thread or just needed to feel loved that day.
That being said is soon as I have the money I wil be prolly become a subscriber as I should have the money soon and I owe a lot to this site. And I also understand some members can;t afford it, especially members in their early 20s as I remember how it was in my early 20s it was only eight years ago. Now I am rambling so Ill shut up.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 28, 2013, 08:22:59 PM
You must be kidding! That ad in the top right corner of the page is already driving me crazy.
Wondering how many people just scrolled up. <running away>
You totally got me!!!!
I would have done this in a different way, but Cindy I appreciate the sentiment behind it.
Someone said, "There are not enough frequent users," which is why over 127,780 people have accessed the site in the last 30 days. 44% or 56,223 are returning visitors.
if 10% of those 56,223 visitors would donate $5.00 a month (5,622) or 5% subscribe for 10$ a month (2,811) the site would bring in $28,110 a month.
With that we would:
- Have the money to pay 100% of the costs of hosting the site.
- Give me a full time pay check
- Start paying back the some of the expenses of the site which were born by myself and the guy I worked for
- Hire the web designer for a complete professional redesign of the site
- Have funds to pay staff a little something to say thank you for all the long hours and hard work they exert to make this site the safe and secure the place it is
And last and certainly not least, we would be able to afford to start generating new content and features which will take Susan's Place to the next level; not just for the subscribers and donators, but for everyone!
Just imagine what we could do if 10% of the 1,426,632 people who accessed the site in the last year chose to help support the site.
Sure we have members living at or near the poverty line, and I was one of those. We are not asking those to step up and help support the site; but a few of them have and they have our gratitude as we know the hardship of doing so means to them.
But, we also have multimillionaires who if they wanted to could make a donation to fund the operations of the site for a year without blinking an eye, though none of them have stepped forth as of yet.
Most of the members fall somewhere in between. Think about how much this site has helped you and pay it forward if you can, because it boils down to the fact that each person that donates or subscribes is making a personal commitment to ensure a bright future for Susan's Place.
Quote from: randomroads on July 28, 2013, 09:38:16 PM
No one's told me which I should do. I guess I'll just donate and then hope I remember to do it monthly.
The subscriptions seem to be for two fixed amounts. I don't know whether you can change them. I made a one-time donation that way because I was able to change the terms of the donation. Then I made another donation the usual way. You might see if you can change the monthly amount on the subscription.
When I first saw the subscription amounts I thought it was a bit high for the amount of time I spent on the site - I "subscribe" to a couple of other sites (Espn being one of them) and they are significantly cheaper.
That being said, after thinking about it for a day or two, I decided that the site has (and hopefully will continue to) meant a lot to me. It's not about the amount of "time" I spend here, but rather the quality of the time. It's given me a place to not only share my thoughts, but to also received some more objective feedback and support than I get from my wonderful wife and daughter. That's worth a lot more to me than reading the latest article about the local sports teams or spoiled athlete.
Maybe I won't always be in the position where I can do something to help the site out, but for now since I can I felt it's the right thing to do. Hopefully others that can will feel the same way.
Many thanks to Susan and everyone else who makes this site what it is.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 28, 2013, 08:22:59 PM
Wondering how many people just scrolled up. <running away>
I did.
That said, I argue for putting ads on the site. Not disturbing ones of course, but a little banner in the top corners wouldn't hurt people. I'd say make them invisible for subscribers. That way we broke people can at least give a little bit of support for the site while subscribers won't see the ads.
For those using adblock with the element hiding helper, you can now block the Support the site block at the top of the page. I enclosed it in a div with the id announcements to make this possible.
I really wish I had the capability and the finance's to help, or had some skill I could donate to the site, everyone hear has helped me so much, and while I understand what has happened has to happen, I am going to miss and be sad not-being able to post in some of the areas I was before posting in, my only hope is that eventually I will be financially in a better spot than that in which I currently am in :( :-\ :'(
but I do want those who are responsible for this site, that I very much appreciate and love you for making and maintaining this site
Quote from: learningtolive on July 27, 2013, 02:54:42 PM
Cindy, I like you. And I agree that Susan has done a great thing and deserves our help. But I find this post to be a bit insulting and condescending to those who are legitimately broke and unable to donate. You make it sound as though, we don't care and have no desire to help. I would gladly contribute if I had the money. The thing is I don't. Yes, this site is amazing and everything that Susan has done is great. I do appreciate it and would like to give back. But if I am poor and have nothing to give, should I be emotionally blackmailed into doing something I can't. It's not like I don't care. I don't have it. I'm sorry but I am in a bad place and $10 a month WOULD actually hurt me. Again, I thank you for everything that you have provided. I mean that. But its not my choice about donating. I don't have a choice.
I did, however, offer what I could to help the site in terms of volunteering. The offer remains because I want this site to thrive and I'd like to contribute. If there is something else I can help out with, I will gladly do so, but I can't grow a non-existent money tree.
Sorry if I took this too personally, but I found it a little insulting to say that all of us not subscribing are shrugging our shoulders saying "why should we care". And as a moderator who knows the personalities of most the members here, I hope you don't think so little of us as people.
Paying for the resource has numerous justifications.
Paying is a respect to the stalwarts who have battled for you, me and all of society. Because without their efforts, things would be like they were in the 60's. I'd don't think you'd like that world.
People's gender stuffed in a dark box named 'society's abuse' and 'I can't be myself because I'm afraid of what you will do to me'. The armed forces would still think that 'men are men and women stay at home' and if you have the IQ of a rocket scientist and are a woman, you'd be stuffed in a box named 'traditional gender roles - stay home and pop out babies and make my dinner ready on time'. And if you were a man, you'd have three choices 'work and make money, or work and make money, or work and make money'. God help you if you were a gay male, a lesbian, or transgendered. God help you if you spoke out against the machine. Then you'd get smashed across the head with a club and told to be quiet--you're an abomination'. And you'd either do yourself in, or grow strong and battle because you're strong.
The extraordinary efforts and human pain that go into transforming society needs practical resources. Bottom line: money, in our society, is needed to front the blue suits and conservative sectors whose attitudes are steeped in societal-narcissism, that callous force that is behind the abuse. It's narcissism because 'we the conservatives, are affronted by you and expect you to live as we do, for our, not your sake'.
Society doesn't change without being kicked and dragged along. We can't do anything to change society unless you empty your pockets. Do that with a sense of joy and gratitude, because you're helping save lives. And--if you're one of the young generation the beneficiary of the souls who made the world safe for you--gratitude is the only language that doesn't leave you seeming just like the forebears before you.
Actions speak louder than words. Building devices to challenge the legislature, educate hundreds of millions of souls, and stand strong before a society who thinks anything outside of the norm is an abomination--takes resources.
If the question of donating had been raised a month ago when a tax rebate landed in my account then i'd have jumped at the chance to help, unfortunately I splurged on a few nice things to cheer myself up & have given the rest to my mum for safe keeping to pay for electrolysis.
Right now i'm struggling to survive on benefits & every penny counts, as soon as i'm in a better financial situation i'll happily subscribe & make a big donation, this desire to help has nothing to do with accessing a sub forum but comes from my eternal gratitude for the help this site has provided, if it wasn't for Susan's place & some of the great people i've met on here then I wouldn't have made it through the early part of this year.
Ok folks, lets tone it down a bit, OK.
Susan has asked for those who can to help defray the expenses, nothing more, nothing less. Lets go with the spirit of the request.
I understand that many of us are on "fixed" incomes and money is tight (I'm retired and on Social Security).
So, "IF" you can help do it. "IF" you can't that is fine. If you feel the need to "explain" why, keep it short AND DO NOT berate others for the reasons they give or don't give.
I restored the topic, staff thought the thread was getting a little too hot. To cool the thread down a bit I deleted a couple of posts, I read every post in this thread and I heard what they all had to say.
Both Cindy and Lesley Roberta mean well, and I think that there was a little bit of cultural or language barrier resulting in people taking offense in their posts where none was intended by them.
No one, and I mean no one will ever be looked down upon who doesn't donate to support the site. You have my promise on this. However, I will make it quite clear though I intend to recognize those who can and do step up to help out.
Eventually donors who get very little direct benefits from their donations will be given prominent recognition on the main page of the site. Both Subscribers and Donors (they are different) will be receiving a profile badge identifying them as a contributor who helps support the site.
I only ask that those who can do so consider stepping up and helping out, as Cindy has done! Over the last few years, she has given more than all other subscribers and donators so far have combined, and I can't thank her enough!
I have now put a post in the Announcement area for a number of 'Scholarships' for people who cannot afford to pay at the moment but who want access and can save $10 over a couple of months.
Please don't get so upset.
As many of you know I am an Australian, we tend to be rather 'blunt' in conversation, but then we also have to shout from a long way. :laugh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFD2gu007dc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFD2gu007dc)
And I just signed up for a subscription :angel: some stuff finally came through. ;)
I haven't been here long. I have to be honest, when I read this, I feel very unwelcome.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for any site to ask for financial support, but the first post in this thread makes me feel like I am a free-loader or some horrible person for coming here and using 'your services'.
Is this really the kind of effect you wish to have?
Jker86 Cindy's from Australia and there is are cultural and lingual differences. Cindy had no intention to make you feel unwelcome.
thanks for explaining that, I think I understand.
perhaps that could be a preface, because some people looking for help may be alienated?
Quote from: jker86 on July 30, 2013, 07:23:37 AM
I haven't been here long. I have to be honest, when I read this, I feel very unwelcome.
I think it's perfectly reasonable for any site to ask for financial support, but the first post in this thread makes me feel like I am a free-loader or some horrible person for coming here and using 'your services'.
Is this really the kind of effect you wish to have?
I'm sorry Hon.
You are not a free loader and I am here to support you.
My pm is activate as is my email and Goddess knows how many members have my private phone number to call if they are troubled, it is available to you as well when you want it.
Running Susan's costs a lot. Susan and her business partner have paid an enormous amount to keep the site going. I have helped a little.
We do it to help you.
There is no compulsion to help, if you cannot afford it, don't even think about it.
We are here for our members and we are here to help.
We are just after a bit of financial help to ease the load.
Maybe my You Tube post in #78 can explain my motives
Cindy
Thank you Cindy, you are very kind :)
I don't need much support at the moment, I'm just feeling a bit tired from lack of sleep and depressed as a result and also got my first referral the day after tomorrow.
I just hope to keep sharing ideas with everyone here :)
I think this is a wonderful place to offer support to others and also share in new ideas.
I know it would feel good to donate. NPR, PBS, my old universities I've given to all in the past.
My insurance debacle from work has already caused me to miss group therapy because I couldn't afford it with rent coming due. One of my cats isn't on one of her meds because of the cost. Which sucks because, on the surface, I look like someone able to cough up funds. I want to be that person. I want to help.... Here, NPR, PBS and my old U's.
Now I see the banners above people's profiles this morning saying they donated or subscribed and it's like a twist of the knife.
Given a choice, I gotta stick with trying to make my group happen. I know I'm welcome here, but it now serves as yet another reminder of my employer's discrimination and what I lost earlier this year. I've got some things poised to put my life back together but until then, as lousy as I felt a moment ago when I first saw the banner, I think I need to stay away.
It'll be wierd not coming here...
Quote from: Misato on July 30, 2013, 09:44:35 AM
I know it would feel good to donate. NPR, PBS, my old universities I've given to all in the past.
My insurance debacle from work has already caused me to miss group therapy because I couldn't afford it with rent coming due. One of my cats isn't on one of her meds because of the cost. Which sucks because, on the surface, I look like someone able to cough up funds. I want to be that person. I want to help.... Here, NPR, PBS and my old U's.
Now I see the banners above people's profiles this morning saying they donated or subscribed and it's like a twist of the knife.
Given a choice, I gotta stick with trying to make my group happen. I know I'm welcome here, but it now serves as yet another reminder of my employer's discrimination and what I lost earlier this year. I've got some things poised to put my life back together but until then, as lousy as I felt a moment ago when I first saw the banner, I think I need to stay away.
It'll be wierd not coming here...
Make your group happen! That is what is most important!
The badges are simply to thank people who are supporting the site, they ARE NOT to "twist the knife!" I promise! That being said, I will not stop recognizing people who are contributing to the site simply because someone may feel bad about it.
If you can't contribute, you can either talk to Cindy about one of her membership scholarships. If she awards you one, it will give you a silver subscription for 3 months. Or, you can choose to volunteer your time on the site. You have more than enough posts to qualify.
I don't know where the right place to say this is, so move this if you like...
One of the reoccurring themes for the future of this site is giving it a make over. I don't spend much time on the other parts of this site, and I don't know how much traffic they get, but as far as the forums are concerned the only visably outdated parts are the banner at the top and the favicon. As for the rest of it, simply changing to a sans serif font and changing the slightly pixelated background will probably make a world of difference. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would much rather there be less pressure on getting donations in order to be able to survive and having one or two areas of dated formatting on the site. Maybe searching for a member with experience who's willing to volunteer would be worthwhile... if I had the knowledge I would gladly volunteer, but as much as I wish I did, I can't pretend that I do.
Quote from: Misato on July 30, 2013, 09:44:35 AM
I know it would feel good to donate. NPR, PBS, my old universities I've given to all in the past.
My insurance debacle from work has already caused me to miss group therapy because I couldn't afford it with rent coming due. One of my cats isn't on one of her meds because of the cost. Which sucks because, on the surface, I look like someone able to cough up funds. I want to be that person. I want to help.... Here, NPR, PBS and my old U's.
Now I see the banners above people's profiles this morning saying they donated or subscribed and it's like a twist of the knife.
Given a choice, I gotta stick with trying to make my group happen. I know I'm welcome here, but it now serves as yet another reminder of my employer's discrimination and what I lost earlier this year. I've got some things poised to put my life back together but until then, as lousy as I felt a moment ago when I first saw the banner, I think I need to stay away.
It'll be wierd not coming here...
Misato, don't let it get ti you. The intention of the donations was to help rhe site, not to shame us. I do think some here took it overboard in what they said in response to those who are broke, but it didn't come from the staff or majority here. At the end of rhe day, it's about a lot more than pure dollars. I have come on this site and pmed for hours when I didn't have rhe time to comfort rhise considering suicide or self harm. I alsi did the same with posting. I an here ti help others in the way that I can. And this is a way rhat you can continue to help the site with as well. I know you have been helpful to me and i'd hate ro see you go.
I don't have a problem with the banners, but I see your point. There are plenty of studies rhat show how status symbols or distinguishing marks can create in group conflict. It's not the intention of rhe staff, but some may make judgements on others. It's been proven again and again in the social sciences. Nonetheless, keep solace in rhe fact that you have contributed a lot to this site and no amount of money can belittle or match that. Don't feel bad about your situation.
Maybe the banners are not that good of an idea. People are already listed on the donations page, so to have it out in the forefront might just be adding salt to the wounds.
And now a question. If people donated anonymously would they still get a badge?
Susan I will kindly ask you or any other mod here to please remove the donation badge from my profile.
Thank you
The banners will be staying.
As of right now I have very few ways to recognize the people who are contributing. The Just for us forums are a nice perk; but by themselves they are not enough. The forum badges are another means of recognition.
People who chose to donate anonymously do not get badges as they are not added to the donator group. If someone who donated anonymously wishes to change their mind, they can get in touch with me.
The badges are tied to the various account groups and cannot be individually removed.
Here's some New York ''BLUNT''.
Regardless of intentions the implementation rollout, quite crass and insulting in tone at times, of this 'site saving endeavor' with its .. "special listings", "badges" and secret pay only areas it is quite easy to see, no matter what some may wont to tell themselves or believe, that there are now several classes of people here. And WE know it. FYI ..67% below poverty level, live a year in my life then tell me it's only such and such a month... I was and still am beyond livid about the insulting words, being berated and worse ...all from alleged support group staff. Those in positions of authority MUST think before they speak.
I would suggest maybe looking more into these aspects. Sell adds(add bar and pop ups) , allow subscribers to view the site free of pop ups but not the add bar at the top of each page, a hard limit on pictures posted per month for non-subscribers, a donation button on every page but keep the site fully open to normal members. Even though the site has an 'old' look it adequately serves its purpose and is still functionally sound. Does it really truly need to be reworked? 'Secret' areas breed distrust, animosity and elitism attitudes; I've seen the destructive and splintering force this demon wields.
Push has come to shove for this site so an income source needs to be generated and therefore you do what you have to. The trick is mitigating the hurt to people as much as possible while doing that. Change is rarely painless, which we all know too well and all I can do is wish you success at this point. "In life, no good deed goes unpunished."
Quote from: Lorri Kat on July 30, 2013, 02:06:42 PM
Here's some New York ''BLUNT''.
Regardless of intentions the implementation rollout, quite crass and insulting in tone at times, of this 'site saving endeavor' with its .. "special listings", "badges" and secret pay only areas it is quite easy to see, no matter what some may wont to tell themselves or believe, that there are now several classes of people here. And WE know it. FYI ..67% below poverty level, live a year in my life then tell me it's only such and such a month... I was and still am beyond livid about the insulting words, being berated and worse ...all from alleged support group staff. Those in positions of authority MUST think before they speak.
I would suggest maybe looking more into these aspects. Sell adds(add bar and pop ups) , allow subscribers to view the site free of pop ups but not the add bar at the top of each page, a hard limit on pictures posted per month for non-subscribers, a donation button on every page but keep the site fully open to normal members. Even though the site has an 'old' look it adequately serves its purpose and is still functionally sound. Does it really truly need to be reworked? 'Secret' areas breed distrust, animosity and elitism attitudes; I've seen the destructive and splintering force this demon wields.
Push has come to shove for this site so an income source needs to be generated and therefore you do what you have to. The trick is mitigating the hurt to people as much as possible while doing that. Change is rarely painless, which we all know too well and all I can do is wish you success at this point. "In life, no good deed goes unpunished."
*Now that I finally have a computer in front of me and can ditch taptalk for a second, maybe my posts will come out a bit more coherent than my last,lol.
I myself live in NY and am broke, so I can totally relate. For this reason, I reacted the same way at first. I must admit, some of the initial commentary really bothered me; however, most of what was said that was offensive and lacking empathy was not said by staff. I don't agree with Cindy's choice of words, but I realize she meant no harm in what she stated. The rest of the staff and Cindy have no intentions of putting us in classes.
Having said that, you make a great point that I think the staff is ignoring or not seeing clearly. Creating status badges and secret areas for one group of members will create subgroups within our community. Even if that isn't the goal, it will happen. I would love to share some studies that have been done in political psychology that shows how easy it is to create elites within an in group. Give a few kids a ball and the rest of the children feel belittled while the other feels superior. It's simple human nature. Personally, I could care less about the badges and the just for us section, but I know others will and hate what impact it may have. It is easy to create friction within a group. It's this reason that church's aren't supposed to give perks to members who donate over those who don't. It diminishes the sense of community. In a support group, that is detrimental. I know I can't change the staff's mind, but I do want to warn you as you have already seen the grief it has caused from your frequent users.
As I said before, there is much more important things than badges and perks. I have done some good on this site during my short stay here. I have talked to those who need, sometimes in severe situations, and I know I made an impact. On the same token, many have done the same for me. That's why this site is important. It's about the support that we all have for one another and the sense of community. Let's not tear it down over petty things. The site needs money to run and that's the reality. All that really matters is that we continue to be a family. I hope that we won't have in group fighting and that we can't get over this little intro phase. Let's all maintain our community. Please, if you don't have a badge, like me, don't take it personally. If you do, that doesn't mean you are more special or have contributed more than your poor peers here. Sure dollar wise that may be true, but many of us have also contributed our time and support as well. Let's not lose site of that. Please let's all get along.
Quote from: Bethany Dawn on July 30, 2013, 10:49:00 AM
Maybe the banners are not that good of an idea. People are already listed on the donations page, so to have it out in the forefront might just be adding salt to the wounds.
And now a question. If people donated anonymously would they still get a badge?
Susan I will kindly ask you or any other mod here to please remove the donation badge from my profile.
Thank you
I have avoided getting into this debate up until now as I have already found it too divisive for my taste and didn't want to say anything that might make things worse. So, hoping this won't be the case here's my two "centimes" worth.
Like Bethany, I really dislike the badges and had I known they were going to be put in place I would certainly have donated anonymously. Same thing for the subscriptions as I don't think we need permanent reminders on every page of this forum of who has made a financial contribution and who has not. As others have said, it can only lead to people feeling there are different categories of "Citizen" here and that would be very unhealthy for the overall quality and warmth of the exchanges. I feel the same way about the zones reserved for subscribers only. Not only are they divisive, they will also be that much poorer in content if so many people are excluded from them.
I understand that there are a very large number of people here in a state of extreme fragility and as a person who can still remember what that felt like many years ago, I am personally very happy to contribute in a reasonable manner to insuring they have a place to come to where they immediately feel welcome, part of a family with no immediate pressure to contribute anything.
However, as a reminder that the site does need funds to operate, I see no issue in having a donations page and a subscribers page showing who has signed up as without this it would be easy to forget the whole subject and go back to imagining that all of this is someone else's problem. I have absolutely no idea how many people have signed up for subscriptions but if the donations page is anything to go by, the results so far can only be described as very disappointing.
Hopefully, with time a donation culture will develop here as those who were once in difficulty move on to a happier state and remember how much they owe to this place. To make this happen, the subject really does have to remain visible but again, if it was me, I would actually have left it at donations with maybe some kind of reminder every month concerning the level of donations attained. In my mind the subscriptions just add complexity with no obvious pluses and a whole series of what look like obvious negatives to me.
Hopefully I haven't added any oïl to the fire and as one who was a teenager in the early seventies: Peace and love my friends!
Bises
Donna
P.S. Apart from the fact that I really dislike pop-ups etc.., since almost everyone here seems to be flat broke, how much revenue do you people think businesses would generate by advertizing here? ;)
No one who has donated has done so for a badge that says "I've donated"
The donations have all been made by someone who wanted to do what they could to keep the site running. People have opened their purses, wallets, and checkbooks to help others. There is no malice in that. Hugs, Devlyn
PS Donna, the bottom of the index page has subscribers indicated in the corresponding color for the subscription, I am seeing more subscribers all the time.
Personally, I don't mind what Cindi said or the badges (although they do make me a little uncomfortable and I'm wondering if I can ask that I not have one when I do get enough money to subscribe and/or donate). What did get to me are some of the responses. They were deleted (thanks), but they were hurtful and it makes me wonder how many people agree with them and how much hostility will arise.
Quote from: learningtolive on July 30, 2013, 02:46:58 PM
As I said before, there is much more important things than badges and perks. I have done some good on this site during my short stay here. I have talked to those who need, sometimes in severe situations, and I know I made an impact. On the same token, many have done the same for me. That's why this site is important. It's about the support that we all have for one another and the sense of community. Let's not tear it down over petty things. The site needs money to run and that's the reality. All that really matters is that we continue to be a family. I hope that we won't have in group fighting and that we can't get over this little intro phase. Let's all maintain our community. Please, if you don't have a badge, like me, don't take it personally. If you do, that doesn't mean you are more special or have contributed more than your poor peers here. Sure dollar wise that may be true, but many of us have also contributed our time and support as well. Let's not lose site of that. Please let's all get along.
Well put.
As a person who doesn't convey empathy/sympathy/etc well, it can't be understated how important are those people who can. Like every group of people who band together for a reason, different talents and contributions are essential to the success of the group - and elevating one over another is counter-productive*.
I too think that the badge create discomfort.
*I don't think that anyone here is engaging in this... but it's easy to see how this might be construed...
Quote from: AlexanderC on July 30, 2013, 10:41:40 AM
I don't know where the right place to say this is, so move this if you like...
One of the reoccurring themes for the future of this site is giving it a make over. I don't spend much time on the other parts of this site, and I don't know how much traffic they get, but as far as the forums are concerned the only visably outdated parts are the banner at the top and the favicon. As for the rest of it, simply changing to a sans serif font and changing the slightly pixelated background will probably make a world of difference. I can't speak for anyone else, but I would much rather there be less pressure on getting donations in order to be able to survive and having one or two areas of dated formatting on the site. Maybe searching for a member with experience who's willing to volunteer would be worthwhile... if I had the knowledge I would gladly volunteer, but as much as I wish I did, I can't pretend that I do.
I don't know what section that kind of thing would belong I and couldn't find any related, I just wanted to put it out there, I am a designer and I am very good at logos and colour balance etc. If you see this Susan and want anything designed, let me know.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 30, 2013, 03:02:32 PM
No one who has donated has done so for a badge that says "I've donated"
The donations have all been made by someone who wanted to do what they could to keep the site running. People have opened their purses, wallets, and checkbooks to help others. There is no malice in that. Hugs, Devlyn
PS Donna, the bottom of the index page has subscribers indicated in the corresponding color for the subscription, I am seeing more subscribers all the time.
That is very true, but you are not taking into account the real implications status markers have on community stability. It may sound silly, but you have already seen at least one member jump of the site because of this and other's have made judgmental comments to those of us who are unable to donate. As I have said before, give a 5 kids a ball in a group of 20, you will see that the kids begin to interact differently with one another. Even in campaigning, we gave small little symbolic rewards to our volunteers who went above and beyond. As a result a competition emerged and some volunteers began to feel their was a hierarchy within our campaign. In a competitive atmosphere like a political campaign it's fine, but it isn't the greatest idea for a support site. It is common knowledge that these things do matter and there are years of studies to prove this. I could care less about these badges,and when I can donate I will refuse to accept one myself, but I do care about how others may interact because of them. I have seen enough commentary from a vocal minority who judged those of us unable to donate and now see some members threatening to jump ship. It's not about any malice being intended. It's about the impact these actions will have.
Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 30, 2013, 03:02:32 PM
No one who has donated has done so for a badge that says "I've donated"
The donations have all been made by someone who wanted to do what they could to keep the site running. People have opened their purses, wallets, and checkbooks to help others. There is no malice in that. Hugs, Devlyn
PS Donna, the bottom of the index page has subscribers indicated in the corresponding color for the subscription, I am seeing more subscribers all the time.
Yes that is true Devlyn I donated because I wanted to help the cause here. But I don't want those who can't afford to contribute at this time to feel out of place. Had I known there were going to be badges I would have donated anonymous. Next time I'll know unless the badge stays with us forever.
Susan has done her best to make it clear there are No Second Class members, I don't know what else she can say.
If you can donate, fine, if you can't, fine. Either way you are all valued members.
We have enough people attacking us in life without us turning on each other.
I really think the site should consider ads. Well placed ads don't effect a site at all. Heck, you could prolly sell a banner ad at the bottom of the page for wigs that I bet would bring in at least $1,000/month. But two there one for wigs, the other for makeup that covers beard shadow and now you have $2,000/month and you haven't effected the site at all. Or put three, and another for binders. Now you are bringing in $3,000. Put two at the top and then two at the bottom. You could put ads for binders and packers on the FTM forum and makeup and wigs on the MTF forum. Those are money makers right there.
BTW, I like the look of the forums. They are simple and allot users to communicate with ease. You don't have to be a stock holder in Facebook to realize implementing too many changes at once will turn some people off and in the end effect the overall profitability of the site. Right now you could sell X amount of ads for a definite price, but if the amount of traffic drops, those ads will decrease in value.
I just think ads are the answer. I worry the site will lose users over the long term by stratifying the site with badges though that is obviously not the intent. I think most, if not all, current users know there is zero ill intent but what about new users? They will never know about this debate and only see a user with a gold badge or a silver badge or whatever. They might just think they have to pay to be a member and thus never really get involved. It is quite the conundrum since I do think Susan has to do something to recognize donators.
LTL makes really good points to I'll just say. i can't say it better then she did.
It may be me but I'm not really seeing this as a huge deal. I love this site it has helped me out during this transition period and I plan on once I setup a PayPal account to support the site for all the help I have received from it. I haven't heard anyone say your a bad person if you don't give money. And trust me I'm far from rich and I do have bills to pay but if me paying 10 dollars a month help keeps the site up for everybody it's worth it to me. :)
I don't see the harm in doing an experiment to see how only subscriptions/donations work out. The donation/subscription thing has only been up for a week and already people just automatically write it off. Susan has said ads are not off the table. Give it time, maybe you guys/girls will get the ads you want.
Edit to add:
I just looked at the goal progress so far. In only about a week, we've made 61% of a monthly goal. If August has the same goal amount ($2,000) we're probably more likely to hit the goal with a full thirty days.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 30, 2013, 04:32:37 PM
I really think the site should consider ads. Well placed ads don't effect a site at all. Heck, you could prolly sell a banner ad at the bottom of the page for wigs that I bet would bring in at least $1,000/month. But two there one for wigs, the other for makeup that covers beard shadow and now you have $2,000/month and you haven't effected the site at all. Or put three, and another for binders. Now you are bringing in $3,000. Put two at the top and then two at the bottom. You could put ads for binders and packers on the FTM forum and makeup and wigs on the MTF forum. Those are money makers right there.
BTW, I like the look of the forums. They are simple and allot users to communicate with ease. You don't have to be a stock holder in Facebook to realize implementing too many changes at once will turn some people off and in the end effect the overall profitability of the site. Right now you could sell X amount of ads for a definite price, but if the amount of traffic drops, those ads will decrease in value.
I just think ads are the answer. I worry the site will lose users over the long term by stratifying the site with badges though that is obviously not the intent. I think most, if not all, current users know there is zero ill intent but what about new users? They will never know about this debate and only see a user with a gold badge or a silver badge or whatever. They might just think they have to pay to be a member and thus never really get involved. It is quite the conundrum since I do think Susan has to do something to recognize donators.
LTL makes really good points to I'll just say. i can't say it better then she did.
I am really flippin' poor - I will pay the $10 a month to avoid ads , have you seen the ads they put on trans sites, do you know what being trans draws? when google ads sees that you are trans they push stuff towards you that is awful - I had a blog with ads on it, the stuff was pretty much porn in my opinion. and when you have yourself out there you just draw the wrong stuff. on my computer I have ad blocking stuff and malware blocking software because I consider all that stuff bad. I would rather pay even though I have pretty much not enough money to eat by the end of the month and my food budget for the month is $100
I wasn't talking about using Google pay per click ads I was talking about selling actual ad space at a premium. The site would control what business was able to advertise on it. At the end of the day will donations cut it for a site this size as the trans community is pretty small and, well, trans-ient lol
Are you happy, do you feel better? Got that all out of your system? I know that donations and subscriptions are a big change, but they are a necessary one.
You gave me your New York blunt, well here's mine, and after this, we will be closing this as topic of discussion on the public areas of this site.
Do contributing members of the site get a few more benefits than the free members? Yes. Lets count them. They get access to a set of forums, the majority of which they only get if they are a member of a specified peer group. They get a tiny bit of access to me which I really haven't been using yet, so its not that much of a benefit as of this time; then you have the fact that anyone can pm or email me at any time and they will be heard no matter what. Do you feel this is enough to reward people who have dug into their pockets to help support the site? The answer is not on your life. I will sing their names from the heavens if required to ensure that they feel that their support of Susan's Place was really worth it.
Lets look at these "different classes" of members.
All Subscribers and Donators
1. Get access to a subscriber news forum.
Donators
They get the least, and what they are doing is done out of the kindness of their hearts.
1. They receive their name on the the donor wall of fame (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=treasury;sa=fame), provided they didn't chose to be totally anonymous.
2. They receive a forum badge on their profile.
3. They also receive access to a special forum only available to other donators.
That's it. Cindy has paid to help support this site single-handedly for years. During this time she was and knew she was the only donor. She asked for nothing and it was a challenge to get her to allow me to give her any credit at all. Other donators are now being allowed to help support the site as well, and they have donated anywhere from two to several hundred dollars. All of them are on the the donor wall of fame (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=treasury;sa=fame), and not one is excluded because they didn't donate "enough". A $1.00 donation is enough to identify someone as a donor, and I don't plan to clear them out but maybe once a year.
Then we have subscribers
Subscribers
They give a monthly amount to help support the site, but they also receive back some concrete benefits for doing so.
1. They get access to the private peer support forum.
2. They get access to a special forum where I am going to try to be more active once I get caught up a little at work.
3. They get a forum profile badge
They are not listed on the the donor wall of fame (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=treasury;sa=fame), unless they donate as well.
Silver Subscribers
Chose to give $10.00 per month
Gold Subscribers
Chose to give $20.00 a month
That's the only difference between them, how much they give. A silver and Gold subscriber receives exactly the same benefits. They just get a different badge.
Now looking back at all these wonderful benefits that subscribers and donators get, ask your self is it enough? The answer is not on your life. People work hard for their money and deserve to be rewarded when they support their community.
Every single person bitching should be ashamed of their self not because you have not or cannot donate or subscribe; but because you are whining that people who have stepped forward to help support this site, who help to ensure that we have the funds needed to move the site forward to the next level, and lastly who help me; are being recognized publicly for doing so.
No it's not enough, and I plan to do more.
Lets say you are unable to contribute financially but you really want to help, you can volunteer your time be it 1 hour a day, 4 hours a week, or more. That helps this site as much as a cash donation would.
You can contact Emelye (Chat), Fitter Admin (Forums), Shana A (News), Renate (Wiki), Flan (Links) to get more information on what volunteering for their section of the site entails.
If you are unable to contribute cash or time, get with Cindy she has generously volunteered to fund accounts for people who are unable to contribute. You can also get with me.
You can donate any amount from $1.00 and up and your donor status will last for at least 1 year. There is no maximum donation, however know that all donors are recognized the same if they donate $1.00 or $18,000 like Cindy has. Every single dollar donated helps the site.
Last but certainly not least: Not one person who accesses this site has been denied the support that they need, nor will they ever be.