I found this article on the journal of endocrinology & metabolism.
this article made me more confident to become a woman because i really am a woman.
this is the link, feel free to read:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
the question for the discussion is, can we trust that article?
Quote from: Alisha on October 04, 2013, 12:41:30 AM
the question for the discussion is, can we trust that article?
Interesting article, and it seems very thorough. This is not the first time I have read of the brain differences. You have to consider that not that very long ago was it discovered than males and females have differences in their brains. Enough so that gender can be determined from looking at the brain alone. But these differences in transsexuals was probably not looked for. It makes perfect sense to me. I think like most of the women I have known in my life, and that was not from being raised that way.
This tragic story (in this article written by my friend Victoria) illustrates this point:
http://tg.victoriaescher.com/nature-versus-nurture-story-david-reimer-dr-john-money/
You have twin brothers. An incompetent doctor ends up damaging David Reimer's penis so badly during a circumcision (it was
burnt off), that they did SRS on him at age 6 months, and raised him as a girl. When the age of puberty came along they gave him E. But, he never felt like he was a girl, because his brain wasn't a female brain. In 1997, he underwent treatment to reverse the reassignment, including testosterone injections, a double mastectomy, and two phalloplasty operations. He got married to a woman, and in 2004 committed suicide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
It is from 2000, so not that new. There are some others that support this I think. No way that I know of yet to check this on a living person.
Hey, I had another MRT yesterday - I wonder if the scientists could look at a number of them from transpeople if they could find more differences there :)
OK, you lost me on that acronym... what's an MRT?
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 04, 2013, 03:14:43 AM
OK, you lost me on that acronym... what's an MRT?
I'm guessing MRI for magnetic resonance imaging. It's often used to measure brain activity and be done in conjunction with other tests during the scan.
yes - MRT is MRI, I think (t=tomography / i=imaging). Had me checked for any weird stuff because of my migraines. Found nothing luckily, so its "just" a migraine.
The last time they did that to check if i am really trans or if I have a tumor or something like that which causes me to just think I am (I guess)
Oh! I've seen the T used in CAT scan but not MRI.
I also get migrains. Got them since I was a kid. In fact back then I got them daily. I was telling this to a friend who is a nurse, and suffers from them also, and she said "that's odd, usually it's only girls that get them like that."
Yep. ;)
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 04, 2013, 01:12:35 AM
Interesting article, and it seems very thorough. This is not the first time I have read of the brain differences. You have to consider that not that very long ago was it discovered than males and females have differences in their brains. Enough so that gender can be determined from looking at the brain alone. But these differences in transsexuals was probably not looked for. It makes perfect sense to me. I think like most of the women I have known in my life, and that was not from being raised that way.
This tragic story (in this article written by my friend Victoria) illustrates this point:
http://tg.victoriaescher.com/nature-versus-nurture-story-david-reimer-dr-john-money/
You have twin brothers. An incompetent doctor ends up damaging David Reimer's penis so badly during a circumcision (it was burnt off), that they did SRS on him at age 6 months, and raised him as a girl. When the age of puberty came along they gave him E. But, he never felt like he was a girl, because his brain wasn't a female brain. In 1997, he underwent treatment to reverse the reassignment, including testosterone injections, a double mastectomy, and two phalloplasty operations. He got married to a woman, and in 2004 committed suicide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
Actually, most of the female brain won't ever be in a male's body so long as they have testosterone dominance, there is however very specific areas that DO turn up feminine, and that any TS truly considering transition full time will be EXTREMELY likely to have the mix up in neurons in that specific area.
In time on a male to female HRT regimen, the rest of the brain becomes equivalent in size and proportions very closely to that of a natal female. :)
Thanks for an interesting article, and great discussion. Just a random thought: a friend of mine (MTF, full SRS) says that she opted for a "brain scan" in New Mexico rather than going through a year of therapy before SRS... Has anyone else heard of this? Sounds rather sketchy to me...
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 04, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
Actually, most of the female brain won't ever be in a male's body so long as they have testosterone dominance, there is however very specific areas that DO turn up feminine, and that any TS truly considering transition full time will be EXTREMELY likely to have the mix up in neurons in that specific area.
In time on a male to female HRT regimen, the rest of the brain becomes equivalent in size and proportions very closely to that of a natal female. :)
You are forgetting that we all start out as female, more or less. So these studies seem to indicate that in transsexual MTF people, parts of the brain developed as in a female.
There is quite a lot that goes on in the early stages of the fetus.
http://www.gender.org.uk/about/04embryo/44_cncp.htm
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 04, 2013, 12:08:07 PM
You are forgetting that we all start out as female, more or less. So these studies seem to indicate that in transsexual MTF people, parts of the brain developed as in a female.
There is quite a lot that goes on in the early stages of the fetus.
http://www.gender.org.uk/about/04embryo/44_cncp.htm
Yes, and I did put a side note regarding those, was just saying the majority of our brain is actually ultimately effected by hormone levels, the statement I made was there ARE parts of the brain very specifically wired as female, in it's own accord agreeing to what you guys have said. Just decided to share a little in depth explanation of the OTHER aspects of the brain. Ultimately in the end- (I hate using this but) a true transsexual will usually end up with a pretty much completely female brain or close to it.
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 04, 2013, 12:42:39 PM
Yes, and I did put a side note regarding those, was just saying the majority of our brain is actually ultimately effected by hormone levels, the statement I made was there ARE parts of the brain very specifically wired as female, in it's own accord agreeing to what you guys have said. Just decided to share a little in depth explanation of the OTHER aspects of the brain. Ultimately in the end- (I hate using this but) a true transsexual will usually end up with a pretty much completely female brain or close to it.
Yes you did, and I was reading your post on my phone, so I didn't see it well. lol
Really, the brain on HRT in the long run changes that much, even in size? Thats a bit hard to believe, I mean as an adult, neurons are sort of formed and probably stay where they are. Was that also in an article? I can imagine some things really do change, given how different the experience of the world is once finally the right hormones cycle through our bodies, but I did not think the change would be that visible in the brain...
QuoteIn time on a male to female HRT regimen, the rest of the brain becomes equivalent in size and proportions very closely to that of a natal femal
[...]
Ultimately in the end- (I hate using this but) a true transsexual will usually end up with a pretty much completely female brain or close to it.
If these changes are based on HRT, how does this make anyone "true" - would not all who get HRT in the end have these changes? Or were you referring to the OP article about the small region that they looked at there which does not change?
Quote from: anjaq on October 04, 2013, 12:49:20 PM
Really, the brain on HRT in the long run changes that much, even in size? Thats a bit hard to believe, I mean as an adult, neurons are sort of formed and probably stay where they are. Was that also in an article? I can imagine some things really do change, given how different the experience of the world is once finally the right hormones cycle through our bodies, but I did not think the change would be that visible in the brain...
If these changes are based on HRT, how does this make anyone "true" - would not all who get HRT in the end have these changes? Or were you referring to the OP article about the small region that they looked at there which does not change?
The small region with the certain gender assignment does NOT change. EVER. It will permanently be assorted with the specific make-up of whatever gender it was formed in to. So, no. But that also doesn't mean people without that can be trans. I just have a feeling most if not all, do have that neuron difference. I'll try to find the study I read about it, but yes. There are distinct differences between sizes and proportions between the female and male brain, having MTF hrt in time DOES change them to duplicate that of a natal female, the study showed little to no difference between each MTF on HRT and Natal female. Not one of them had a majorly different brain structure, and same goes for FTM. However, when taking MTF who have NOT been on HRT they have that of a normal biological male.
Oh do you have a link on that HRT effects article, I'd like to read it
Quote from: anjaq on October 04, 2013, 01:29:35 PM
Oh do you have a link on that HRT effects article, I'd like to read it
I think I have it book marked, I'll post it in here in a bit. Playing FFXIV with my bf!
Well, in the mean time I did a quick google search as I don't want to shuffle through my 100 bookmarks, I found this:
http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2009/09/effects-of-hormones-on-brain.html
Should be interesting until I take the time to find that site.
Quote from: anjaq on October 04, 2013, 01:29:35 PM
Oh do you have a link on that HRT effects article, I'd like to read it
Here you go! http://www.eje.org/content/155/suppl_1/S107.full.pdf
There are a few more out there, but this is the one I think I was referencing.
As a retired paramedic you CAN trust the information in the Journal of endocrinology. It was required reading in class. Info from this and the New England journal of Medicine are very accurate.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on October 04, 2013, 03:25:53 PM
As a retired paramedic you CAN trust the information in the Journal of endocrinology. It was required reading in class. Info from this and the New England journal of Medicine are very accurate.
Hey, I have a question for you- hoping you might be able to sort something out.
I'm currently trying to get my endo to consider a Progesterone addition to my HRT (while also removing the need for spiro)
I was wondering if the information on Progesterone's support on the overall feminization of the body is in any way accurate?
I know the main argument of concern is usually breasts- but I've also heard the E with P collaborates in overall shape and design of your body when it comes to feminizing. Do you have any knowledge on this?
Sorry. I am only 7 weeks into HRT and I am learning a lot as well. Pretty lost still myself.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on October 04, 2013, 03:36:33 PM
Sorry. I am only 7 weeks into HRT and I am learning a lot as well. Pretty lost still myself.
Darn! Aw well. She scheduled a phone appointment to talk about it, so we'll see what happens in 3 days!
nobody knows what causes transsexualism. it is like asking what causes people to be gay.
that neuron study was done on mtf ts who were taking E and passed.
an article
'sex dimorphism of the brain in mtf ts " did MRI tests and found that male heterosexual and MTF TS have for the most part, the same amount of gray matter as opposed to females who have less GM but more white matter.
it say this "present data does not support the notion that brains of mtf ts are feminized. "
the problem is thought to be a body self perception problem. you have to read the article.
another study found the white matter. of mtf ts is somewhere between male and female.
Transitioning was invented for males that want to be girls and /or felt they were girls for whatever reason.
Quote from: victoria n on October 04, 2013, 04:57:59 PM
nobody knows what causes transsexualism. it is like asking what causes people to be gay.
that neuron study was done on mtf ts who were taking E and passed.
an article
'sex dimorphism of the brain in mtf ts " did MRI tests and found that male heterosexual and MTF TS have for the most part, the same amount of gray matter as opposed to females who have less GM but more white matter.
it say this "present data does not support the notion that brains of mtf ts are feminized. "
the problem is thought to be a body self perception problem. you have to read the article.
another study found the white matter. of mtf ts is somewhere between male and female.
Transitioning was invented for males that want to be girls and /or felt they were girls for whatever reason.
I feel you are mildly misinformed. This article I posted right here was an actual professional study in endocrinology which implies information that contradicts what you say. PRE HRT yes, MTF TSs and Normal males are exactly the same. The study was NOT in any way saying that the size of the grey/white matter of their brains had ANYTHING to do with the state of being TS. It was saying the hormones when given to the opposite sex DO alter the brain to match that of the other gender.
And you are wrong, transsexualism is NOT just some thing that pops up, like "oh hey, I want to be a girl!"
There is definitely some form of mental mix-up. It's the only explanation and there are MANY Neurological studies that make it a plausible theory. Of course, we will never really know EXACTLY what causes it, but that'll always be the case for neurological mishaps until we somehow start reshaping the brain work of twins, and ya know. I don't think that'll ever happen.
I should also probably point out, it isn't common for a living creature to try and defy the norms off of a whim. The fact that a male would be willing to chop off what makes him a guy should be deeply seen as weird, because it is weird. And I guarantee you it isn't off a random thought of wanting to be the opposite sex.
People don't typically, though it does happen, do these things off of a want or a desire. This stuff is real, and the cause of it is most likely real. You can't bury your head in the sand and say, well. This just happens because of how they were raised, or they just think that way because they like girls a lot. It's probably not true most of the time.
Perhaps this will trigger a memory in someone else, since sadly I forget most of the details...
My endo mentioned to me a study done on identical twins & transexualism. He was excited because the results showed that in the case of identical twins, they were both typically either TG, or not rather than just one. This apparently strongly suggests a physical condition in the brain that determines gender identity.
While I do hold the opinion that transsexualism has a neurobiological basis, I'm always a little weary of biological "proofs" The main reason being that, while I identify as a woman with a transsexual past, I'm first and foremost a transhumanist. By this I mean, I believe all humans have a right to self definition. Imagine being told you couldn't get medical assistance to transition because of your finger length, position in birth order or number of certain types of cells. Our bodies are hideously limited chunks of meat bone and sinew but they are ours to do with what we wish.
Quote from: Isabelle on October 04, 2013, 05:48:27 PM
Our bodies are hideously limited chunks of meat bone and sinew
Oh please not that... Ok, I will shut up on transhumanism... totally off topic
Quote from: victoria n on October 04, 2013, 04:57:59 PM
that neuron study was done on mtf ts who were taking E and passed.
No that is incorrect. I read the article and they did proper controls on MtFs that could not get E for some reason, that chose or were forced to not transition and they compared it as well to non trans men who had been given E for medical reasons like prostate issues. They were very clear that they did proper controls and excluded hormone therapy as a reason.
Quote
'sex dimorphism of the brain in mtf ts " did MRI tests and found that male heterosexual and MTF TS have for the most part, the same amount of gray matter as opposed to females who have less GM but more white matter.
it say this "present data does not support the notion that brains of mtf ts are feminized. "
Yes i saw that but did not read it yet. I assume they did this study pre-HRT, so they found that one can not detect by MRI if someone is transsexual or not because these structures are seemingly depending on hormones ( at least the article on brains changing on HRT would suggest that)
QuoteTransitioning was invented for males that want to be girls and /or felt they were girls for whatever reason.
This is a rude and opiniated comment and I think this is inappropriate to use here.
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 04, 2013, 05:03:30 PM
People don't typically, though it does happen, do these things off of a want or a desire. This stuff is real, and the cause of it is most likely real. You can't bury your head in the sand and say, well. This just happens because of how they were raised, or they just think that way because they like girls a lot. It's probably not true most of the time.
Yes of course. I hope however that victoria was not implying any of these rather odd ideas about it being purely a matter of choice and expression with her post. This would be quite diminuitive in respect of the very real dysphoria many of us experienced.
I respectfully disagree. Transsexuals are a very important part of the transhumanist movement. Transhumanism isn't off topic, its the basic principle behind the topic itself. Do we let biology define our lives?
Quote from: Isabelle on October 04, 2013, 07:19:52 PM
I respectfully disagree. Transsexuals are a very important part of the transhumanist movement. Transhumanism isn't off topic, its the basic principle behind the topic itself. Do we let biology define our lives?
We never said it did. owo;
My comment was directed at Anjaq's dismissal of Transhumanism as irrelevant :)
Quote from: Isabelle on October 04, 2013, 07:19:52 PM
I respectfully disagree. Transsexuals are a very important part of the transhumanist movement. Transhumanism isn't off topic, its the basic principle behind the topic itself. Do we let biology define our lives?
I will not get into an argument about that. Not in this forum. Just in short, I consider Transsexuality more of a medical issue - like someone who is born without the ability to make a certain hormone or protein and this is fixed with medical procedures. If that is also already transhumanism, then so is giving a man who lost a limb a prosthetic also transhumanist. Transsexuals usually do not go for these procedures because they choose to or because they want to overcome biology, but because they want to be cured of dysphoria. For TG in general this may be different, but the OP was specifically about Transsexuals.
If you want you can open a topic on transhumanism and transgender issues - but this is IMO not topic of this thread and I dont want to derail it.
To specifically respond to this comment from the OP "the question for the discussion is, can we trust that article?"
Well considering the article about David Reimer, and how Money clearly thought what he thought as a result of his own feelings and supported by his own training, the danger is that education, while important, is not always enough.
Experts can be utterly and completely wrong. Life doesn't make it that easy.
I have a quite considerable education across a quite considerable array of knowledge. Might not be an expert with credentials in any of it, but, on any given day, I can make any expert work up a sweat defending anything they are an expert in all the same :)
That said, our brains continue to astound us, and baffle us and contradict what we were certain of before.
Ironically this week in my medical training we have just finished treating a patient who had suspected gender issues. Obviously we will return to the theme in more detail at a later date, as our spiral of learning continues, but the important point to note is that in a current UK medical education, future doctors, like me, were being taught that this has a solid MEDICAL Aetiology and is not something purely psychological.
As regards the statement that nobody knows what makes someone TS that is a seriously out of date position. It may be still believed and promulgated by older physicians. Doctors, just like anyone else, do tend to recall best the ideas that they were taught when they first learned about a subject. However as medicine is a dynamic and evolving subject, based on evidence and best practice, the current understanding of things is constantly refining.
In the case of disorders of sexual development, as we now describe these conditions, the various pathophysiologies involved are now fairly well established, and evidence demonstrates that this is in fact a cluster of conditions with similar clinical signs. That is, you do not all have the same condition. You do all have the same symptom, which is gender dysphoria, but the mechanisms that lead you to that clinical display are not the same in all of you. Nor should you all expect to share the same treatment and prognosis.
It's a bit like having spots. You can have spots because you have an endocrine condition, chicken pox, measles, skin damage, etc. The having of spots is merely the symptom, and not the disease. The treatment and prognosis is NOT the same for all people with spots.
In short the exhibiting of transgender development is a symptom which can be arrived at due to a number of other causative pathologies. The likelihood is that sooner or later this will lead to far more precise differential diagnosis, and the development of a greater degree of individualisation of treatment options and plans. Rather than the doctor offering you only one possible pathway and outcome, it should become possible to have a greater element of patient choice.
The days of John Money (who incidentally I had the privilege to get to know personally through a mutual friend, and had dined out with on a number of occasions prior to his death) as the great all knowing physician making the big decision for the helpless patient are thankfully long gone in all but the most out of date places. These days we are firmly being taught to diagnose then discuss possible options and outcomes with a patient. It is, after all, your life to lead...
Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 05, 2013, 12:58:59 AM
Ironically this week in my medical training we have just finished treating a patient who had suspected gender issues. Obviously we will return to the theme in more detail at a later date, as our spiral of learning continues, but the important point to note is that in a current UK medical education, future doctors, like me, were being taught that this has a solid MEDICAL Aetiology and is not something purely psychological.
As regards the statement that nobody knows what makes someone TS that is a seriously out of date position. It may be still believed and promulgated by older physicians. Doctors, just like anyone else, do tend to recall best the ideas that they were taught when they first learned about a subject. However as medicine is a dynamic and evolving subject, based on evidence and best practice, the current understanding of things is constantly refining.
In the case of disorders of sexual development, as we now describe these conditions, the various pathophysiologies involved are now fairly well established, and evidence demonstrates that this is in fact a cluster of conditions with similar clinical signs. That is, you do not all have the same condition. You do all have the same symptom, which is gender dysphoria, but the mechanisms that lead you to that clinical display are not the same in all of you. Nor should you all expect to share the same treatment and prognosis.
It's a bit like having spots. You can have spots because you have an endocrine condition, chicken pox, measles, skin damage, etc. The having of spots is merely the symptom, and not the disease. The treatment and prognosis is NOT the same for all people with spots.
In short the exhibiting of transgender development is a symptom which can be arrived at due to a number of other causative pathologies. The likelihood is that sooner or later this will lead to far more precise differential diagnosis, and the development of a greater degree of individualisation of treatment options and plans. Rather than the doctor offering you only one possible pathway and outcome, it should become possible to have a greater element of patient choice.
The days of John Money (who incidentally I had the privilege to get to know personally through a mutual friend, and had dined out with on a number of occasions prior to his death) as the great all knowing physician making the big decision for the helpless patient are thankfully long gone in all but the most out of date places. These days we are firmly being taught to diagnose then discuss possible options and outcomes with a patient. It is, after all, your life to lead...
So, with all that on the table, what exactly was in mind when considering multiple pathways for people in situations such as ours? What are the causes that were discussed?
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 05, 2013, 01:14:02 AM
So, with all that on the table, what exactly was in mind when considering multiple pathways for people in situations such as ours? What are the causes that were discussed?
Regrettably I think a detailed medical discussion is probably way beyond my current level of understanding and indeed would undoubtedly take rather more time than I have to devote to my occasional visits here. I am only a student as yet, so I should probably apologise that my answer is not going to be as detailed as perhaps you might wish, at this point... Give me time to learn my skills.
Briefly the causative pathophysiologies that we were taught were largely genetic, and hormonal. However they were subtle and complex. It is just not as simple as mere chromosomes. There are many physiological pathways involved. There was also mention of the fact that some conditions like bipolar, Schizophrenia, and OCD could sometimes mimic the appearance of Gender dysphoria, but in those cases the symptom was secondary and would disappear once the underlying pathology was treated.
In terms of treatment options for gender dysphoria as a primary symptom, we haven't really got into detailed specifics yet, and indeed as I am not going to specialise in that field I may never do so.
The idea we were being taught through this particular case, lay more around the fact that forcing everyone into a single rigid program (in the case of this condition - therapy, RLE, HRT, SRS etc) was not actually always meeting a patient's need.
The aim of any treatment is to get someone to the point where they can live their life with the minimum level of distress that can be achieved. This could sometimes involve a degree of physical body modification, but there may also be other possible outcomes, such as psychological, and indeed in the future maybe even neurophysiological manipulations that we have not yet even developed.
The main point is that it is up to the individual to make choices. We are being taught that the modern physician's job is to lay out the possibilities, and maybe offer advice. However in a patient lead process it is up to the patient to make the decision as to whether or not to accept that course, or whether to explore other avenues.
Quote from: Doctorwho? on October 05, 2013, 12:58:59 AMThat is, you do not all have the same condition. You do all have the same symptom, which is gender dysphoria, but the mechanisms that lead you to that clinical display are not the same in all of you.
Maybe, maybe not. I would suspect for many people there is the same underlying cause, that we don't understand in the least, based on symptoms that are too intricately identical to not correlate. And it's not that we don't understand medicine or the human body to a great extent. But we don't understand the why behind everything. Everything started with the Big Bang. OK, fine. But why? And what initiated it. And what was there before it? We can't answer those questions. And we can't answer other questions either. We likely never will.
This is one of these things you have to experience to know that. Otherwise you are just being analytical. Try explaining "happiness" to someone who's never been happy. Or the color red to a blind person. It's too abstract unless you experience it. Like with shyness. People say; "oh, you will grow out of it, or it's caused by this or that." But often you don't, and it's not for any of those reasons at all. It just is. It's who you are. You learn to work around it. But until you are the shy person, you can't quantify that. I'm also one of those people.
Since gender dysphoria generally shows up in very young children, what you see is that it's always there, but displays when the child is old enough to first be aware of gender differences. And they haven't been conditioned by society yet. I was one of these children at 4 years of age. I just knew something was not right. And my mother was dressing me in the wrong clothes! It has not changed a bit since that time. It's not wishful thinking, or a fetish, or a whim. It's at the core of my existence. I'm a highly intelligent person, and that has not helped at all. I can rationalize and analyze it, and it's still there, and it's still what it is. I'm a female in a male body. It has affected me on each of the 18,980 or so days I've been on this planet (in this lifetime) since becoming arame of it. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in very profound ways. But every single day. Usually not pleasant either. Many TS's take their own lives. I came close on several occasions.
Will transitioning solve all my problems? Absolutely not. It will probably cause new difficulties I have not even thought of (for example I'm all too aware of all the misogyny, and the irrational homo/transphobia in the world. I'm opening a real can of worms here). But for the very first time I will feel like myself, and not trapped in the wrong box. Just the fact that I finally decided to do this has changed my outlook on everything. I'm happier than I have been in a decade at least.
My friend said to me the other day that she suspects that in the not too distant future it will be common place to discuss the transitions of people you know, because it will become easier to do, and more accepted. It's still an awful lot to go through, which shows how dire it is to the people experiencing it. I've never been a patient in a hospital, but I'm ready to go in there and have my face and body altered forever. I'm starting this and I don't even know how I'm going to pay for much of it. But I'll find a way. That's how important this is to me. If I could legally sell a kidney, I would. ;) I'm actually changing careers for this.
Science is great, but lately tends to be very dogmatic. We only know what we know so far, or at least we think we do. And then we think that's everything there is. We understand it all. But we don't. We can observe things. We know the elephant is gray, but not why it's an elephant. We don't know what we don't know. How could we? This is why many discoveries are made by accident. We didn't even know something existed.
The truth is we don't know why this happens to people. We don't even understand consciousness. Some people think we are nothing but biological robots, but that's clearly wrong. It's too simplistic a view. But it is very interesting that scientist can actually spot differences in the brains of people experiencing this. I think most of the causality is not physical in a sense we know however. But it's real none-the-less. I think sometimes it's just that the wrong people end up in the wrong bodies, but we will never be able to prove such a thing. And that's where science falls short. :)
This could very well be linked with past lives. My daughter insisted her name started with an "M" when she was 2 years old. She didn't know any letters at all, except M. Her mother was writing her name on her new potty chair, hoping it would make her accept it, and she made her write an "M" on it. Who was she before, and what was her name? We never found out and the memory faded from her, as it always does in these cases. Lots of documentation on these kinds of things, but not taken seriously by mainstream Western science.
Incidentally, I was seriously planning on being a doctor when I was younger, but then art and music called me away from that.
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 05, 2013, 03:20:24 AM
Maybe, maybe not. I would suspect for many people there is the same underlying cause, that we don't understand in the least, based on symptoms that are too intricately identical to not correlate. And it's not that we don't understand medicine or the human body to a great extent. But we don't understand the why behind everything. Everything started with the Big Bang. OK, fine. But why? And what initiated it. And what was there before it? We can't answer those questions. And we can't answer other questions either. We likely never will.
This is one of these things you have to experience to know that. Otherwise you are just being analytical. Try explaining "happiness" to someone who's never been happy. Or the color red to a blind person. It's too abstract unless you experience it. Like with shyness. People say; "oh, you will grow out of it, or it's caused by this or that." But often you don't, and it's not for any of those reasons at all. It just is. It's who you are. You learn to work around it. But until you are the shy person, you can't quantify that. I'm also one of those people.
Since gender dysphoria generally shows up in very young children, what you see is that it's always there, but displays when the child is old enough to first be aware of gender differences. And they haven't been conditioned by society yet. I was one of these children at 4 years of age. I just knew something was not right. And my mother was dressing me in the wrong clothes! It has not changed a bit since that time. It's not wishful thinking, or a fetish, or a whim. It's at the core of my existence. I'm a highly intelligent person, and that has not helped at all. I can rationalize and analyze it, and it's still there, and it's still what it is. I'm a female in a male body. It has affected me on each of the 18,980 or so days I've been on this planet (in this lifetime) since becoming arame of it. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in very profound ways. But every single day. Usually not pleasant either. Many TS's take their own lives. I came close on several occasions.
Will transitioning solve all my problems? Absolutely not. It will probably cause new difficulties I have not even thought of (for example I'm all too aware of all the misogyny, and the irrational homo/transphobia in the world. I'm opening a real can of worms here). But for the very first time I will feel like myself, and not trapped in the wrong box. Just the fact that I finally decided to do this has changed my outlook on everything. I'm happier than I have been in a decade at least.
My friend said to me the other day that she suspects that in the not too distant future it will be common place to discuss the transitions of people you know, because it will become easier to do, and more accepted. It's still an awful lot to go through, which shows how dire it is to the people experiencing it. I've never been a patient in a hospital, but I'm ready to go in there and have my face and body altered forever. I'm starting this and I don't even know how I'm going to pay for much of it. But I'll find a way. That's how important this is to me. If I could legally sell a kidney, I would. ;) I'm actually changing careers for this.
Science is great, but lately tends to be very dogmatic. We only know what we know so far, or at least we think we do. And then we think that's everything there is. We understand it all. But we don't. We can observe things. We know the elephant is gray, but not why it's an elephant. We don't know what we don't know. How could we? This is why many discoveries are made by accident. We didn't even know something existed.
The truth is we don't know why this happens to people. We don't even understand consciousness. Some people think we are nothing but biological robots, but that's clearly wrong. It's too simplistic a view. But it is very interesting that scientist can actually spot differences in the brains of people experiencing this. I think most of the causality is not physical in a sense we know however. But it's real none-the-less. I think sometimes it's just that the wrong people end up in the wrong bodies, but we will never be able to prove such a thing. And that's where science falls short. :)
This could very well be linked with past lives. My daughter insisted her name started with an "M" when she was 2 years old. She didn't know any letters at all, except M. Her mother was writing her name on her new potty chair, hoping it would make her accept it, and she made her write an "M" on it. Who was she before, and what was her name? We never found out and the memory faded from her, as it always does in these cases. Lots of documentation on these kinds of things, but not taken seriously by mainstream Western science.
Incidentally, I was seriously planning on being a doctor when I was younger, but then art and music called me away from that.
I don't think she was trying to split us up into different categories. I think what she was really saying is there are many different conditions which would ultimately cause more or less potent feelings or more or less need to change. She was saying that the extent of the transition to go in regards to the patient, and not loop all transsexuals in to the same exact routine.
That aside, I do also believe there are some people who actually transition out of talking themselves in to it, I feel it's usually due to something like ->-bleeped-<- or just a very narrow hatred for men in general. I've noticed a lot of people like this and it scares me, because I don't think they will be safe and happy come 3 or 4 years. That hardly comes close to the majority though, which I don't actually think she was saying that a large fraction of people show these symptoms for other reasons.
I think of it this way: who cares? If you're trans you are trans. It aint going away so focus on transition and being happy cuz if you are like me happiness is something I have rarely, if ever, felt. But since transitioning and getting a BF I finally feel alive. So these qustions don't matter. Cause really it doesn't matter. You matter.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on October 05, 2013, 12:00:13 PM
I think of it this way: who cares? If you're trans you are trans. It aint going away so focus on transition and being happy cuz if you are like me happiness is something I have rarely, if ever, felt. But since transitioning and getting a BF I finally feel alive. So these qustions don't matter. Cause really it doesn't matter. You matter.
It matters because we matter. Quite simply, it matters because the more and more understanding and truth that is uncovered with things such as this, is the more likely WE will get acceptance. It's a long shot, but it's a shot that matters. :)
Well I guess I'm lucky then cause I already am accepted. I pass extremely well so that helps a lot. I mean what does it matter what people think if everything else is fine. But I never experience stares or laughs so maybe if I did I would have a different opinion.
Quote from: Joanna Dark on October 05, 2013, 12:47:04 PM
Well I guess I'm lucky then cause I already am accepted. I pass extremely well so that helps a lot. I mean what does it matter what people think if everything else is fine. But I never experience stares or laughs so maybe if I did I would have a different opinion.
It's a different thing, some people pass just fine. But as soon as someone finds out they're TS. It becomes hell.
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 05, 2013, 11:26:09 AM
I don't think she was trying to split us up into different categories. I think what she was really saying is there are many different conditions which would ultimately cause more or less potent feelings or more or less need to change. She was saying that the extent of the transition to go in regards to the patient, and not loop all transsexuals in to the same exact routine.
Yes, I understood that, and I'm not totally convinced. I'm also not totally a layperson when it comes to this stuff because of my interests in the field. I've known more than a few doctors and therapists I've met. lol Oh that's scary.
QuoteThat aside, I do also believe there are some people who actually transition out of talking themselves in to it, I feel it's usually due to something like ->-bleeped-<- or just a very narrow hatred for men in general. I've noticed a lot of people like this and it scares me, because I don't think they will be safe and happy come 3 or 4 years. That hardly comes close to the majority though, which I don't actually think she was saying that a large fraction of people show these symptoms for other reasons.
OK, but now you are talking about sexual attraction. That has little to do with gender identity. They are two separate things. As a man I have only dated women. I'm not attracted to men and don't plan on changing that. lol But that has nothing to do with my gender identity. If you think you want to be a woman because you are gay, that might be some other issue. But you might feel you are a heterosexual woman, well that's considered "normal" too. Lots of gray areas here. Sex plays no part in my decision to transition.
Sure, there are all kinds of people that have all kinds of, for lack of a better term, "issues". But that's clearly different from being a small child and knowing you are the opposite sex than you were assigned at birth. Because at that age you have no sexual attraction to other people, and certainly no animosity towards anyone based on gender, etc. Unless they steal your cookies. :)
Quote from: Alisha on October 04, 2013, 12:41:30 AM
I found this article on the journal of endocrinology & metabolism.
this article made me more confident to become a woman because i really am a woman.
this is the link, feel free to read:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
the question for the discussion is, can we trust that article?
Alisha,
Thanks for the very interesting and exciting paper. The journal seems highly influential among doctors (Impact factor = 6.4).
Despite the small sample size of the study, which is quite understandable considering the difficulty of acquiring posthumous brains, it strongly suggests that our gender identity is determined by complex interactions between sex chromosomes and autosomes, and between genitalia and brain, i.e., dichotomy vs. continuum. Individual variation is great, but there were some statistically significant differences among groups. It just starts revealing the tip of the iceberg. Our mind is so much complex, profound and enormous, but science will help understand it.
barbie~~
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 05, 2013, 01:49:22 PM
Yes, I understood that, and I'm not totally convinced. I'm also not totally a layperson when it comes to this stuff because of my interests in the field. I've known more than a few doctors and therapists I've met. lol Oh that's scary.
OK, but now you are talking about sexual attraction. That has little to do with gender identity. They are two separate things. As a man I have only dated women. I'm not attracted to men and don't plan on changing that. lol But that has nothing to do with my gender identity. If you think you want to be a woman because you are gay, that might be some other issue. But you might feel you are a heterosexual woman, well that's considered "normal" too. Lots of gray areas here. Sex plays no part in my decision to transition.
Sure, there are all kinds of people that have all kinds of, for lack of a better term, "issues". But that's clearly different from being a small child and knowing you are the opposite sex than you were assigned at birth. Because at that age you have no sexual attraction to other people, and certainly no animosity towards anyone based on gender, etc. Unless they steal your cookies. :)
Well yes, but 2 different things with similar symptoms. Which is exactly what they were saying. :P
Since this is also based on brain matter,i will post the study i posted elsewhere in case anyone missed it.these studies can be found by searching for the doctors listed within it.It is very clear in MANY areas of the brain,effects with hormones and without.I think this study combined with the OP's,does make both much stronger.Tho the below is much easier to understand even for the uneducated in this kind of field.
"In a first-of-its-kind study, Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still retained sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[20]
In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[21]
In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the failure to generate a gender identity consistent with one's anatomic sex.[22]
In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirms the earlier research as supporting the concept that transsexualism is a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[23] Dick Swaab (2004) concurs.[24]
In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.[25]
While the resolution of MRI tomographs in general can be fine enough, independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types. Therefore such images do not show detailed structures such as BSTc and INAH3, and studies on BSTC were done by bisecting brains postmortem.
However, MRI does much more easily allow the study of larger brain structures. In Luders et al. (2009), 24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. While regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women, there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[26]
An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[27]
Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006), studied the gross brain volume of subjects undergoing hormone treatment. They discovered that whole brain volume for subjects changes toward the size of the opposite reproductive sex during hormone treatment. The conclusion of the study was, "The findings suggest that, throughout life, gonadal hormones remain essential for maintaining aspects of sex-specific differences in the human brain."
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 05, 2013, 02:24:33 PM
Well yes, but 2 different things with similar symptoms. Which is exactly what they were saying. :P
I don't think they are similar symptoms at all. The motivation behind them is different, and one is probably not what was classified as GID, even if there is some body dysphoria involved.
I'm 5'5" tall, and weighed about 120 pounds most of my post teenage life. Though that rarely bothered me (and I'm grateful for it now), there might have been a few times I wished I was taller. So someone might
wish they were a girl, or that they are taller, or more attractive, or rich. But that's different from knowing you are a girl*, and wanting your body to match.
People get cosmetic surgery all the time because they "wished" their nose was smaller, or whatever. So they have dysphoria over that aspect of their appearance. SRS goes a bit beyond that. If your main motivation is you want to have hetero sex with men, I think that needs to be examined more closely. That's my opinion anyway, based on my own personal feelings. I'm never motivated by sex in my wanting to me a woman. It's between me and myself.
(* I like the word "girl" even though some people like to correct me and want me to say "female" or "woman" or whatever, but it's not meant in a condescending way. I just like the sound of the word. :) )
Quote from: RavenMoon on October 05, 2013, 02:54:53 PM
I don't think they are similar symptoms at all. The motivation behind them is different, and one is probably not what was classified as GID, even if there is some body dysphoria involved.
I'm 5'5" tall, and weighed about 120 pounds most of my post teenage life. Though that rarely bothered me (and I'm grateful for it now), there might have been a few times I wished I was taller. So someone might wish they were a girl, or that they are taller, or more attractive, or rich. But that's different from knowing you are a girl*, and wanting your body to match.
People get cosmetic surgery all the time because they "wished" their nose was smaller, or whatever. So they have dysphoria over that aspect of their appearance. SRS goes a bit beyond that. If your main motivation is you want to have hetero sex with men, I think that needs to be examined more closely. That's my opinion anyway.
(* I like the word "girl" even though some people like to correct me and want me to say "female" or "woman" or whatever, but it's not meant in a condescending way. I just like the sound of the word. :) )
Funny you should say that, you know what my father told me when I came out to him?
"It's a little concerning to me that you consistently refer to it as being a girl, it tells me you're still young and you haven't grown enough to make such a serious decision."
I had to sit there and listen to about 30 minutes of lecture about how I need more experience to make this "choice." Needless to say, I objected, unfortunately silently as it's the only way with him. Lol.
But anyway, symptoms are symptoms only inside can you actually tell the difference between a want and a need. Some people who need don't project it as much as they feel, people who want might exaggerate it. Us knowing the difference between someone who is appealed by the thought of them as a female and someone who feels they just simply ARE female isn't so easily deduced. Well, unless they literally say I'd love to be a hot girl or something.
In the end anyone can make the decision to do anything they want. ;D I suppose that's why you generally have therapy first, just in case you are delusional. But people probably know what they want. We all do have feminine and masculine traits. A lot of people mask them, but they are there. For me the feminine outnumber the masculine, but part of me will always be the person I grew up as, because of experience. I missed the experience of growing up a girl, and had to hang around as many as I could to try and be part of that. Nothing is more frustrating then helping a cis woman pick out clothes you really want for yourself. :-\ (I used to design my own clothes too)
I'm still a little girl. Being young at heart is good for you. ;)