I've been looking in to a lot of things about SRS, I like to take pride in being well informed about just about everything from here to 5 years down the road when I have SRS planned.
I've come across many interesting sites regarding SRS, originally I had looked at the colon version, then thought... pain, possible ill effects, I don't know if lubricating tissue is worth that. Then I looked in to how close or far we are from creating self lubricating tissue for neo-vaginas in a more reliable manner. I came across 2 sites. 1 of them I think would be cool to have answered by some people who have had their SRS for a while.
http://www.spanglefish.com/hillingdonstresstherapy/index.asp?pageid=387156
This site suggests that the neo-vagina not matter the material used will eventually adapt to the typical pH levels and mucosa-like tissue of a natal female.
http://transgirldiaries.com/?p=2679
This site (picture) suggests that there may be a new way to develop neo-vaginas in the future.
Thoughts?
For neo-vaginas, as far as I have heard from everyone, they *can* be self lubricating to a degree but not like the mucosal tissue that you'd really want. Someone else will have to chime in here who's had the procedure as I haven't really experienced what the tactile features of the results feel like.
The buccal procedure seems like the best option at current and the technology to implement it is well known at this point. Heck, they grew a nose on a dude's head with a similar technique recently. The problem, as stated in the link is that you'd have to find a surgeon who would be willing to give it a go, have the money to pay a lab to custom build the part, have additional money to pay a much larger team, and so on.
It's a really promising field right now and it's one of the reasons that I've been putting GRS as a lower priority right now *but* I'm still more than aware that I'll probably be one of the first to actually say "sure, why not" if I go this route due to the fact that no GRS surgeon has actually converted to this method and it'd be a completely new thing even with the best surgeons like McGinn, etc.
I'm probably about ready to start testing the waters with surgeons here and I'll post updates as I know more but, at current, the state of the art just isn't ready for scaled-up production on this technique.
Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on October 09, 2013, 07:09:23 PM
For neo-vaginas, as far as I have heard from everyone, they *can* be self lubricating to a degree but not like the mucosal tissue that you'd really want. Someone else will have to chime in here who's had the procedure as I haven't really experienced what the tactile features of the results feel like.
The buccal procedure seems like the best option at current and the technology to implement it is well known at this point. Heck, they grew a nose on a dude's head with a similar technique recently. The problem, as stated in the link is that you'd have to find a surgeon who would be willing to give it a go, have the money to pay a lab to custom build the part, have additional money to pay a much larger team, and so on.
It's a really promising field right now and it's one of the reasons that I've been putting GRS as a lower priority right now *but* I'm still more than aware that I'll probably be one of the first to actually say "sure, why not" if I go this route due to the fact that no GRS surgeon has actually converted to this method and it'd be a completely new thing even with the best surgeons like McGinn, etc.
I'm probably about ready to start testing the waters with surgeons here and I'll post updates as I know more but, at current, the state of the art just isn't ready for scaled-up production on this technique.
Actually read that article though, it suggests that the tissue over time with the proper hormonal balance will morph in to the same exact lubricating tissue that you would find in a natal female.
I had the inversion technique courtesy of Brassard a year and a half ago. I don't know about "same exact." I know that my gear is thinner, more delicate and less flexible than a cis woman's. But... I am definitely self-lubricating. And orgasms are like waterworks.
Of course results vary. Not all post-ops are alike, just as not all cis women are alike.
Also, what's wrong with just using lube? I use lube for some things, regardless. You make it sound like self-lubrication is a superpower. Really it just makes certain kinds of sex slightly more convenient and stains your underwear. :P
Quote from: Sarah7 on October 10, 2013, 01:08:01 AM
I had the inversion technique courtesy of Brassard a year and a half ago. I don't know about "same exact." I know that my gear is thinner, more delicate and less flexible than a cis woman's. But... I am definitely self-lubricating. And orgasms are like waterworks.
Of course results vary. Not all post-ops are alike, just as not all cis women are alike.
Also, what's wrong with just using lube? I use lube for some things, regardless. You make it sound like self-lubrication is a superpower. Really it just makes certain kinds of sex slightly more convenient and stains your underwear. :P
I didn't say anything was wrong with it, I'd just rather not have to use it if I don't have to. ;p
I get some lubrication 13 years post op but not enough. I admit I dont know if this would change if I would get into a really arousing situation which is what causes this normally. I had a mixed surgery - inversion + colon flap. But if I feel with a finger, it certainly feels mucous-ish. I think using lube is rather ok though. The reason they sell it in massive amounts in drugstores and even supermarkets here is certainly not just transwomen and gay men who use it ;) - lots of non trans women have issues with inadequate lubrication as well, esp when using condoms.
The futuristic approaches - i guess there is hope, but it should not keep you from doing what you need to do unless it seriously is already in the testing stage at least, so there has been at least one surgery perfomed with that. Or maybe if you feel that way become the first one yourself if that is already offered. Everything else that seems "just around the corner" - my experience with such things as a scientist is that this usually means that it may be coming soon, more likely though it will take another 3 years, another 5 years and then after that another x years - it just gets postponed. So I think to wait for techniques that are not available yet is probably not the best option. if you have to wait anyways, thats fine then, but I'd rather have it get over with than delaying SRS for 10 years in a vague hope that things will change.
Quote from: anjaq on October 10, 2013, 03:16:45 AM
I get some lubrication 13 years post op but not enough. I admit I dont know if this would change if I would get into a really arousing situation which is what causes this normally. I had a mixed surgery - inversion + colon flap. But if I feel with a finger, it certainly feels mucous-ish. I think using lube is rather ok though. The reason they sell it in massive amounts in drugstores and even supermarkets here is certainly not just transwomen and gay men who use it ;) - lots of non trans women have issues with inadequate lubrication as well, esp when using condoms.
The futuristic approaches - i guess there is hope, but it should not keep you from doing what you need to do unless it seriously is already in the testing stage at least, so there has been at least one surgery perfomed with that. Or maybe if you feel that way become the first one yourself if that is already offered. Everything else that seems "just around the corner" - my experience with such things as a scientist is that this usually means that it may be coming soon, more likely though it will take another 3 years, another 5 years and then after that another x years - it just gets postponed. So I think to wait for techniques that are not available yet is probably not the best option. if you have to wait anyways, thats fine then, but I'd rather have it get over with than delaying SRS for 10 years in a vague hope that things will change.
I'm postponing myself to make sure this is something I want without having regrets like we've all seen before :P
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 10, 2013, 04:43:21 AM
I'm postponing myself to make sure this is something I want without having regrets like we've all seen before :P
I think that is very sensible. The stats are very straight forward. In Whittle's study in Europe the suicide rate for pre transiton was 33%, for post SRs it was 27%. SRS can cure gender dysphoria but not the other problems we may have.
That stat is often lost, but if you talk to post SRS women you will find that their experience of depression etc post surgery can be quite significant.
And yes there are multiple reasons!
The sensible rule is to take care and talk to your therapist pre and post.
Suicide tends to be permanent and the post mortem psychiatric examination of suicide is not very efficient.
:eusa_clap:
LOL, not to mention that curing GENDER disphorya with a SEX change is inherently a contradiction.
You cure GENDER disphoria changing your GENDER, that is you transition from man to woman, but you can successfully live as a woman (GENDER) without changing (SEX), or, better, you may change secondary characteristics of sex (the visible ones: hairless, breasts, nails...) but you may retain for any reason the first.
You change sex because... well, I think that for me the number one reason is because you want
to use it... but this has little to do with GENDER.
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 09, 2013, 07:35:13 PM
Actually read that article though, it suggests that the tissue over time with the proper hormonal balance will morph in to the same exact lubricating tissue that you would find in a natal female.
Well I have been carrying mine around for 40 years and that hasn't quite happened. The skin is softer and more moist than 'external skin' but doesn't produce much lubrication (that seems to come from somewhere else but it is hard to pinpoint). If the tissue was going to "morph" I sure wish it would get more elasticity!!!
Quote from: Marina mtf on October 10, 2013, 06:39:00 AM
:eusa_clap:
LOL, not to mention that curing GENDER disphorya with a SEX change is inherently a contradiction.
You cure GENDER disphoria changing your GENDER, that is you transition from man to woman, but you can successfully live as a woman (GENDER) without changing (SEX), or, better, you may change secondary characteristics of sex (the visible ones: hairless, breasts, nails...) but you may retain for any reason the first.
You change sex because... well, I think that for me the number one reason is because you want
to use it... but this has little to do with GENDER.
Yeah, but I think it's fairly common for Transsexuals to want to be a normal person in that particular gender, not to say someone without SRS isn't a normal woman or man, but I'd feel more complete personally if I was more in line with natal women. It'd be beneficial to myself more than anything. I DO feel it can play an important role in the curing of gender dysphoria as it's a key physical characteristic of the gender.
Quote from: Northern Jane on October 10, 2013, 10:34:34 AM
Well I have been carrying mine around for 40 years and that hasn't quite happened. The skin is softer and more moist than 'external skin' but doesn't produce much lubrication (that seems to come from somewhere else but it is hard to pinpoint). If the tissue was going to "morph" I sure wish it would get more elasticity!!!
But does it produce more than it had initially? It even says that some natal woman have trouble with lubrication.
Nidalexi, I guess it really is a wise choice if you do not feel the immediate need to have SRS to postpone it a while. Better that than rushing into it without being certain about it. This has happened quite a few times and is not pleasant. I read somewhere that up to 10% have some sort of regret (dont know if that includes complications or not). I was uncertain for a while but had a very defined point where it "clicked" and I just knew I need this, and it was the best choice. At that point I could not postpone it either to wait for some better technique, as that decision really made it much worse to delay.
Cindi, thats an horrifying statistic - really 27% of post-op transwomen commit suicide? Thats hard to imagine. I would have thought the higest rate is in TS who do not transition at all, much less already in those who transition but that SRS for a significant number of people makes this even better. Ok, there is a 5% difference there... Insurance payment for SRS here is in part based on the reasoning that it can help prevent suffering and suicides...
Marina, I think it is about both - gender and sex. Just we dont really say "sex dysphoria" because it sounds awful. The distinction as I use it is social (gender) dysphoria and body (sex) dysphoria. For most of us it is both, but for some the social aspects are primary, for others the body aspects are primary. For me, body dysphoria was a biggie. My social environment was not that sterotypically gendered, so while it was not really bearable in the long run, it was bearable for a bit. But at my coming out to myself age at about 21 and transition age at 23, I had serious dysphoria with the body which was dealing with the last effects of puberty. Not just the "downstairs" but also the rest. This is what drove me at last to a fast route to SRS and HRT. But this is individual. I tend to think that late transitioners have more social dysphoria as they got kind of used to the body they have with time but experienced more of the social conflicts with time, for younger TS I can imagine it being a bit different on average as there are a lot of body changes happening that are very noticeable but there was not that much time to get social conflicts (not that they did not happen of course, just the total sum of it is less because of the younger age). I think in the end what many of us want is not only to cure gender dysphoria or body dysphoria but also to be coherent in gender and sex as most people are. Many want to have a gender and sex that matches.
Re the lubrication - I also dont know really where it comes from - probably in part of the colon flap, I had due to complications, but I am not sure. The skin is definitely a lot different from initially. A gynaecologist I went to once was trying hard to find the uterus as I did not tell her about it before, so it seems that it was not totally obvious at least. What I found was that there is some lubrication coming from what used to be the prostate gland. It is not lubing inside though, but at the urea. Orgasms tend to, as was described in the article mentioned in the OP, increase that massively. Which of course is only partly useful as that is more or less the wrong way around ;) .
Quote from: Marina mtf on October 10, 2013, 06:39:00 AM
You change sex because... well, I think that for me the number one reason is because you want
to use it... but this has little to do with GENDER.
According to a poll I took a while back (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,144698.0.html (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,144698.0.html)) there's a lot of variety in the reasons why women had SRS.
The number one reason was that they wanted their body to be the correct shape. Number two was that they couldn't stand their genitals, number three was that they hated their body. Sexual opportunities was tied for fourth with wanting to feel more like a woman.
I feel that is right, Joules. At least thats how I experience it.
Well, I haven't had mine examined with a microscope. :) But I definitely am self-lubricating, the tissue feels the same as my wife's (soft, slightly ridged, moist, and delicate), the scent and taste are similar to hers, and a gynecologist did an exam and didn't realize it was surgically created. So I'm reasonably comfortable that mine falls within the range of acceptable variations. I don't lubricate as much as some women, and the "aesthetic details" aren't the same as what's in porn, but that's a bad judge of normal anyway.
It's quite likely that someone with a microscope actually would find some differences, but quite frankly I don't care. (It is, however, perfectly valid that someone else might! I don't care overmuch about depth, either, and that's something that matters to a lot of women.) The main visual/tactile difference to me is that the vaginal vault doesn't collapse when not in use, so I have my established depth and a bit of additional width whether I'm aroused or not, whereas a cis woman's vagina tightens and shortens considerably when she's not aroused.
Personally, I'd prefer what I have to the buccal method, but that's largely because I'm led to believe I have *more* sensation than is typical for a cis woman - there aren't many nerves deeper inside for them - and I'd rather have feeling and limited lubrication than the reverse. Again, though, that's personal preference only.
Five years seems like a very long time to wait?
For myself I regret not completing SRS long ago so I could have enjoyed a more normal life. Perhaps the procedures will improve for all of us over time so we can all become normal sexually active complete women.
Good luck GF.
Quote from: FrancisAnn on October 10, 2013, 08:58:42 PM
Five years seems like a very long time to wait?
For myself I regret not completing SRS long ago so I could have enjoyed a more normal life. Perhaps the procedures will improve for all of us over time so we can all become normal sexually active complete women.
Good luck GF.
I'm only 19, so I feel it's appropriate. Knowing me that might get chopped in half or more, it really just depends on how much assurance I get throughout my transition. 5 years is just the maximum time I want to wait. (Also the last year I'll be eligible to get free SRS through insurance)
I am almost dead certain I want it, but I'd rather be safe with the scary regrets I've come across.
Quote from: anjaq on October 10, 2013, 11:27:25 AM
Cindi, thats an horrifying statistic - really 27% of post-op transwomen commit suicide? Thats hard to imagine. I would have thought the higest rate is in TS who do not transition at all, much less already in those who transition but that SRS for a significant number of people makes this even better. Ok, there is a 5% difference there... Insurance payment for SRS here is in part based on the reasoning that it can help prevent suffering and suicides...
This is Whittle's study: http://www.pfc.org.uk/pdf/EngenderedPenalties.pdf
On page 78 they report finding that 34.4% of adult trans people have attempted suicide or self-harm in the UK (a lower rate than in the US fyi). I'm not sure where the 27% post-op rate was pulled from. But if it's being compared to Whittle's findings, then it's attempted suicide/self harm, not actual suicide. It's also a lifetime figure. Sure, lots of post-op women have attempted suicide. I have. That was pre-transition though.
Here is a real study about suicide rates post-op if you are interested: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
It indicates that there are unquestionably still risks after transition, and that suicide attempt rates are still abysmally high. We still live in the same transphobic society that we did pre-transition, so I can't really sustain a lot of surprise at that discovery. It is nowhere near our lifetime rates, though.
Quote from: anjaq on October 10, 2013, 11:27:25 AM
Nidalexi, I guess it really is a wise choice if you do not feel the immediate need to have SRS to postpone it a while. Better that than rushing into it without being certain about it. This has happened quite a few times and is not pleasant. I read somewhere that up to 10% have some sort of regret (dont know if that includes complications or not). I was uncertain for a while but had a very defined point where it "clicked" and I just knew I need this, and it was the best choice. At that point I could not postpone it either to wait for some better technique, as that decision really made it much worse to delay.
I'm not sure where you read this, but most studies suggest a rate of regret that is much lower than that. For example: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A%3A1024086814364
That said, SRS is not something I generally encourage. Unlike HRT, it's definitely a one way trip. There are lots of potential complications and issues. You have to do maintenance for the rest of your life. And some of the people who do have regrets end up with something like my pre-surgery body dysphoria, for which I can only offer my deepest sympathies. SRS is a very private, personal issue. And most trans communities are pretty aggressively pro-SRS. Don't let that get under your skin, don't let anyone else make that decision for you. If you can do without a major invasive surgery, you should consider avoiding it. And if you do decide to hold off, don't ever imagine that makes you an inch less of a woman or a female.
Quote from: Marina mtf on October 10, 2013, 06:39:00 AM
LOL, not to mention that curing GENDER disphorya with a SEX change is inherently a contradiction.
You cure GENDER disphoria changing your GENDER, that is you transition from man to woman, but you can successfully live as a woman (GENDER) without changing (SEX), or, better, you may change secondary characteristics of sex (the visible ones: hairless, breasts, nails...) but you may retain for any reason the first.
You change sex because... well, I think that for me the number one reason is because you want
to use it... but this has little to do with GENDER.
By that definition, I never had gender dysphoria. For me, it's always been about my body. Living as a woman is just the inevitable side effect of my transition. It was never something I cared much about.
And THAT is why I strongly encourage caution with SRS. There are a lot of very different people with very different experiences of their lives and bodies under this trans* umbrella. Just because I can say that I had SRS only a year and a half into my transition and that it was one of the best decisions of my life, doesn't mean you will be able to.
Please be careful and stay safe.
I understand it's a big step perhaps, however you are just correcting your gender. And that is no reason at all to consider any harm to yourself. I do not understand why so many people harm themselves over this issue?
Obviously it's your choice however the emotions will never go away.
Again good luck & enjoy your change & new life. The younger the better for HRT to remove most all of the wrong T hormones.
Quote from: FrancisAnn on October 10, 2013, 10:21:50 PM
I understand it's a big step perhaps, however you are just correcting your gender. And that is no reason at all to consider any harm to yourself. I do not understand why so many people harm themselves over this issue?
Obviously it's your choice however the emotions will never go away.
Again good luck & enjoy your change & new life. The younger the better for HRT to remove most all of the wrong T hormones.
I'm curious by what you define as "harming yourself?"
If you mean changing my genitalia, I'd honestly LOVE to have the proper equipment- I hate what I have. I'd just rather not do something that I might not actually feel in the future. Basically heeding my father's propaganda for a while until I've tried full time as a woman for a year or 2.
Quote from: FrancisAnn on October 10, 2013, 10:21:50 PM
I understand it's a big step perhaps, however you are just correcting your gender. And that is no reason at all to consider any harm to yourself. I do not understand why so many people harm themselves over this issue?
Many trans people grow up without much knowledge about the option of transition, or in family/economic situations that make it very difficult or impossible. Some of us live in areas where access to transition is extremely limited. Some of us end up feeling that transition won't fix things, or find that it doesn't solve enough to make life sustainable. Some of us have other things wrong with us as well. And for some of us the straight up dysphoria is so intense that you just want to die to escape the pain. There are a lot of reasons why in many countries we are the single most at risk minority.
The first time I attempted suicide, I had just turned 17 and I didn't know anything about transition or that I could do anything to fix my life. I'd also recently developed a chronic pain condition that I still struggle with. I felt trapped and lost and hopeless and I just wanted the pain, both the dysphoria and the physical, to stop.
Thankfully, that's all a long time ago now. And my life is pretty damn awesome these days. But ya. It can be rough.
Sarah, I'm very glad you overcame & did not do anything to yourself.
I've had a difficult life trapped as they say in the wrong body however never considered S. It is just not something ANY of us should even consider no matter what happens. Live for another day, life will get better.
My love to you sister.
In reference to the infographic I created that's in the OP's link, buccal cell graft vaginas are 'not' a new way at all. They have been done for many years now, at least a decade. The thing is it is simply not being done on a regular basis on trans women (but in cis women with MRKH), and while there were a few test trials with Bangkok Gender Clinic (the grafts fortunately took), lack of proper funding and equipment is what ceased that for us.
What we would probably need to advance this technology for trans women are trans women who will be willing to find doctors who'd be willing to take on this project with a trans woman, AND the person would need to be knowledgable about said surgery, as well as have the resources needed to fund it...
Essentially, without people willing to take an activist position on this so to speak, it may be difficult to propel this onward to become mainstream and affordable in trans genital surgery.
I personally wanted to wait myself... but even I can't stand my genitals anymore and would rather go for the standard business they have now. Whether this is out of desperation and will result in physical complications, or if it's the desperation of not wanting to feel as disgusted with myself as I am now, it's hard to say... but my advice is if you're waiting for this technology now, unless you have the temperance of a Buddhist monk and are fine with potentially being stuck this way for a long while, regular surgery might be best for now... yeah, that's what desperation and having your hopes dashed sound like.
As for the claims about post-operation surgical results 'changing', I've heard it's nothing more than rumour, myth, whatever you'd like to call it. There was a study I'm pretty sure I saw that indicated this, and there was a person I know who had a punch biopsy done to see if it indeed changed... both of the details for these escape me, but the tissue actually changing sounds idealistic at best.
If anyone would like me to dig for the paper and the results of the biopsy again however, I'll go searching for it.
granted there are many different reasons to go to SRS...
I once read an article (sorry, in Italian) where there was a statistical study about
the post-op level of satisfaction of SRS for MtFs. It was rather high... but the curious
thing was that most of the post-op women were satisfied ALSO because their
"romantic life" had changed for the better (they were in stable "straight" relationships).
It compared also the post-op satisfaction for FtMs and it was found that generally trans-men
did not have stable straight relationships, and their satisfaction was a bit lower.
This makes me think that SRS (at least IMHO) is a thing which is different from the
rest of the transition... I think of it like a "present" that one woman does for herself,
but also to have a stable romantic relationships after (with a "straight" man, who may,
or may not, know her past status as a male).
And this, of course, leads directly to the success of the overall transition. If the body is
not "passable", SRS will not give any advantage, as it is not seen. So my suggestion is
to work hard on becoming a woman first (not only in the body, but in the spirit... and that
leads to "deleting the male" --- which was an interesting subject some days ago ---,
because we ARE already women, we have only to remove the male paint).
For me SRS must come not also after the RLT, but the RLT should asses the capability of
the new woman to "function" as a woman in society: job, friends, family... if a MtF is jobless,
SRS will not cure anything, even if done for free. If a MtF is without friends or if she is in
the middle of a "divorce-war" SRS will not cure anything...
That's my IMHO, of course
Quote from: tgd on October 11, 2013, 12:06:51 AM
In reference to the infographic I created that's in the OP's link, buccal cell graft vaginas are 'not' a new way at all. They have been done for many years now, at least a decade. The thing is it is simply not being done on a regular basis on trans women (but in cis women with MRKH), and while there were a few test trials with Bangkok Gender Clinic (the grafts fortunately took), lack of proper funding and equipment is what ceased that for us.
What we would probably need to advance this technology for trans women are trans women who will be willing to find doctors who'd be willing to take on this project with a trans woman, AND the person would need to be knowledgable about said surgery, as well as have the resources needed to fund it...
Essentially, without people willing to take an activist position on this so to speak, it may be difficult to propel this onward to become mainstream and affordable in trans genital surgery.
I personally wanted to wait myself... but even I can't stand my genitals anymore and would rather go for the standard business they have now. Whether this is out of desperation and will result in physical complications, or if it's the desperation of not wanting to feel as disgusted with myself as I am now, it's hard to say... but my advice is if you're waiting for this technology now, unless you have the temperance of a Buddhist monk and are fine with potentially being stuck this way for a long while, regular surgery might be best for now... yeah, that's what desperation and having your hopes dashed sound like.
As for the claims about post-operation surgical results 'changing', I've heard it's nothing more than rumour, myth, whatever you'd like to call it. There was a study I'm pretty sure I saw that indicated this, and there was a person I know who had a punch biopsy done to see if it indeed changed... both of the details for these escape me, but the tissue actually changing sounds idealistic at best.
If anyone would like me to dig for the paper and the results of the biopsy again however, I'll go searching for it.
I can assure you withholding SRS from myself is of my own accord, I have no hopes or dreams of which you assume I speak of, but thanks for the information. :)
Quote from: Marina mtf on October 11, 2013, 12:09:39 AM
granted there are many different reasons to go to SRS...
I once read an article (sorry, in Italian) where there was a statistical study about
the post-op level of satisfaction of SRS for MtFs. It was rather high... but the curious
thing was that most of the post-op women were satisfied ALSO because their
"romantic life" had changed for the better (they were in stable "straight" relationships).
It compared also the post-op satisfaction for FtMs and it was found that generally trans-men
did not have stable straight relationships, and their satisfaction was a bit lower.
This makes me think that SRS (at least IMHO) is a thing which is different from the
rest of the transition... I think of it like a "present" that one woman does for herself,
but also to have a stable romantic relationships after (with a "straight" man, who may,
or may not, know her past status as a male).
And this, of course, leads directly to the success of the overall transition. If the body is
not "passable", SRS will not give any advantage, as it is not seen. So my suggestion is
to work hard on becoming a woman first (not only in the body, but in the spirit... and that
leads to "deleting the male" --- which was an interesting subject some days ago ---,
because we ARE already women, we have only to remove the male paint).
For me SRS must come not also after the RLT, but the RLT should asses the capability of
the new woman to "function" as a woman in society: job, friends, family... if a MtF is jobless,
SRS will not cure anything, even if done for free. If a MtF is without friends or if she is in
the middle of a "divorce-war" SRS will not cure anything...
That's my IMHO, of course
Not only have I addressed the section of your response pertaining to real life experience and functionality as a woman, but I also made it clear that that was my sole purpose for postponing what I want for myself, not to help me pass. I don't need to delete a damn thing, and that's the absolute truth. I am me, and I am a woman. I don't care how anyone else will see me because I am me. I won't mold in to ideals, I won't worry about how masculine I might be coming off because I am me, a woman from birth. I just have this physical defect and hormonal imbalance to situate.
Quote from: Sarah7 on October 10, 2013, 10:10:38 PM
By that definition, I never had gender dysphoria. For me, it's always been about my body. Living as a woman is just the inevitable side effect of my transition. It was never something I cared much about.
And THAT is why I strongly encourage caution with SRS. There are a lot of very different people with very different experiences of their lives and bodies under this trans* umbrella. Just because I can say that I had SRS only a year and a half into my transition and that it was one of the best decisions of my life, doesn't mean you will be able to.
Thanks for the articles , I will check them. The "1-10%" rate is floating around the web without real proof, so I guess it may be wrong.
I definitely feel similar about the severe body dysphoria vs social issues - also had SRS within 2 years of starting transition. But as you said, this is highly individual.
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 10, 2013, 10:08:20 PM
5 years is just the maximum time I want to wait. (Also the last year I'll be eligible to get free SRS through insurance)
I am almost dead certain I want it, but I'd rather be safe with the scary regrets I've come across.
Insurance is a good reason to delay - no need to go broke over this ;)
I think the regrets exist, but one also has to try and get a realistic picture there. Not looking too much at the big famous "transsexual regrets" people too much.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on October 10, 2013, 07:59:29 PM
The main visual/tactile difference to me is that the vaginal vault doesn't collapse when not in use, so I have my established depth and a bit of additional width whether I'm aroused or not, whereas a cis woman's vagina tightens and shortens considerably when she's not aroused.
Hmm - well some of that difference exists, but I definitely change when I am aroused. Probably its the muscles relaxing mostly - I used to do "maintenance dilation" in combination with "sexual rewards" as someone called it . And especially postorgasmic it was like there was soo much more room ;)
Quote from: tgd on October 11, 2013, 12:06:51 AM
In reference to the infographic I created that's in the OP's link, buccal cell graft vaginas are 'not' a new way at all. They have been done for many years now, at least a decade. The thing is it is simply not being done on a regular basis on trans women (but in cis women with MRKH)
I personally wanted to wait myself... but even I can't stand my genitals anymore and would rather go for the standard business they have now. Whether this is out of desperation and will result in physical complications, or if it's the desperation of not wanting to feel as disgusted with myself as I am now, it's hard to say... but my advice is if you're waiting for this technology now, unless you have the temperance of a Buddhist monk and are fine with potentially being stuck this way for a long while, regular surgery might be best for now... yeah, that's what desperation and having your hopes dashed sound like.
Hi, tgd - I LOVE your comics, just whizzed through them some days ago - so funny and sad and true :) Thanks for making them!
We are all not monks, so I totally relate to not wanting to wait. I know I could not have waited once I made the decision to do SRS at all and was ready for it. But then again , in my times there was no promise for new techniques around the corner...
Quote from: Marina mtf on October 11, 2013, 12:09:39 AM
And this, of course, leads directly to the success of the overall transition. If the body is
not "passable", SRS will not give any advantage, as it is not seen. So my suggestion is
to work hard on becoming a woman first (not only in the body, but in the spirit... and that
leads to "deleting the male" --- which was an interesting subject some days ago ---,
because we ARE already women, we have only to remove the male paint).
I am a bit confused at your use of quotation marks at the word "straight"...
And also why we need to "work hard to become a woman in spirit". I wrote part of that deleting the male thing, but for me that was to say that it was not that hard actually. It is more of an action to allow it to go - and its more about the stoic male pseudopersona, than all maleness. So I think I did not have to "work hard" to "achieve" being a woman in that way - it was more a discovery path and about finding myself. The body - well yeah that is some work with hair removal and surgeries...
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 11, 2013, 12:42:47 AMI don't need to delete a damn thing, and that's the absolute truth. I am me, and I am a woman. I don't care how anyone else will see me because I am me. I won't mold in to ideals, I won't worry about how masculine I might be coming off because I am me, a woman from birth. I just have this physical defect and hormonal imbalance to situate.
Thats great! If you managed to maintain being fully yourself by 19, its cool. Meaning you did not do anything to hide from the world around you who you really are by playing to be a guy. Many do that as a result of bullying or social pressure. I think I seriosly ramped that up at age 18 or so when I was called for military service. I was horrified at the thought of doing service. And then I actually built up that idiotic pseudomale simulation with elements from patriotism and such to somehow allow myself to not die inside if I had to go there plus I kind of felt that it would prepare me for the rest of my miserable days. The whole situation went totally chaotic then - sevice first was postponed for school and college until I was about 22 and then I had the pleasure of sending them a reply letter to their order which told me to prepare for the draft - that letter simply had a copy of my diagnosis letter with the recommendation for name change in it - LOL
So glad you dont have that :D
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2013, 01:54:03 AM
Thanks for the articles , I will check them. The "1-10%" rate is floating around the web without real proof, so I guess it may be wrong.
I definitely feel similar about the severe body dysphoria vs social issues - also had SRS within 2 years of starting transition. But as you said, this is highly individual.
Insurance is a good reason to delay - no need to go broke over this ;)
I think the regrets exist, but one also has to try and get a realistic picture there. Not looking too much at the big famous "transsexual regrets" people too much.
Hmm - well some of that difference exists, but I definitely change when I am aroused. Probably its the muscles relaxing mostly - I used to do "maintenance dilation" in combination with "sexual rewards" as someone called it . And especially postorgasmic it was like there was soo much more room ;)
Hi, tgd - I LOVE your comics, just whizzed through them some days ago - so funny and sad and true :) Thanks for making them!
We are all not monks, so I totally relate to not wanting to wait. I know I could not have waited once I made the decision to do SRS at all and was ready for it. But then again , in my times there was no promise for new techniques around the corner...
I am a bit confused at your use of quotation marks at the word "straight"...
And also why we need to "work hard to become a woman in spirit". I wrote part of that deleting the male thing, but for me that was to say that it was not that hard actually. It is more of an action to allow it to go - and its more about the stoic male pseudopersona, than all maleness. So I think I did not have to "work hard" to "achieve" being a woman in that way - it was more a discovery path and about finding myself. The body - well yeah that is some work with hair removal and surgeries...
Thats great! If you managed to maintain being fully yourself by 19, its cool. Meaning you did not do anything to hide from the world around you who you really are by playing to be a guy. Many do that as a result of bullying or social pressure. I think I seriosly ramped that up at age 18 or so when I was called for military service. I was horrified at the thought of doing service. And then I actually built up that idiotic pseudomale simulation with elements from patriotism and such to somehow allow myself to not die inside if I had to go there plus I kind of felt that it would prepare me for the rest of my miserable days. The whole situation went totally chaotic then - sevice first was postponed for school and college until I was about 22 and then I had the pleasure of sending them a reply letter to their order which told me to prepare for the draft - that letter simply had a copy of my diagnosis letter with the recommendation for name change in it - LOL
So glad you dont have that :D
I wasn't saying I didn't have that, I definitely lived most of my later childhood as a "male" just a very girly one. The problem isn't that I have created a male paint, it's that I've hidden my real personality, since coming out it is no longer hidden. I do not agree with the whole playing down the male role and getting rid of the male, when in reality..... it's just quite simply us... If you have to change who you are for this, if you have to teach yourself to be something you aren't to be legitimate then you have other problems than gender dysphoria. I get wanting to pass, but there comes a point where the want becomes an obsession in more ways than physical. You don't need a total mental overhaul (aside from what HRT provides naturally). Just be you, there shouldn't need to be training.
My own sister, natal born female is very very very far from womanly. She has very masculine tendencies, VERY tom boyish. We don't need to derail from our personal normality. That's what I'm trying to say.
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 11, 2013, 12:42:47 AM
I can assure you withholding SRS from myself is of my own accord, I have no hopes or dreams of which you assume I speak of, but thanks for the information. :)
Don't worry, I wasn't making any personal judgments, I was just speaking in general terms. If you can withhold, that's great. I was of the mind I'd hold out as long as I could since starting at 19 (almost 20), but five years on now and at least for me, I find my willpower just crumbling. :(
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2013, 01:54:03 AM
Hi, tgd - I LOVE your comics, just whizzed through them some days ago - so funny and sad and true :) Thanks for making them!
We are all not monks, so I totally relate to not wanting to wait. I know I could not have waited once I made the decision to do SRS at all and was ready for it. But then again , in my times there was no promise for new techniques around the corner...
I'm glad you enjoyed them! Updates are much slower these days.. and yeah, I had period of time a year ago where my patience completely ran out, and now I know what it feels like to just want to get that surgery done with.. something I didn't before.
Nidalexa, i tried to explain what i meant there with the male personality "deletion" in the other thread. From you description you already did that. It is that moment you just stop showing the paint and just be yourself, however tomboyish that is. It is not about getting rid of stereotypical masculine behaviours but to get rid of the automatic pattern to pretend one is a guy. I think for us on the young side this is easier as it did not have that much time to become automatic. Still, if that "deletion" happens it is more or less instant. It is the short moment you think " f that ->-bleeped-<-, i am not playing that male game anymore" and then everything falls into place. It is not an effort really, more a thing of faith, which is what made me cringe at readin that one has to "work hard to become a woman in spirit". No, one does not. It comes by itself once one lezts go of the facade. If it is hard, one may be doing it wrong and is trying to build up a new female facade in place of the old male one. Thats not the goal. The goal is to tear down that facade and just show yourself, just as you said.
Tgd. I sure hope there will be more of your comics, they are so spot on, i have to fight the urge at times to use them as memes when someone writes about something in the chat that just is like in the comic. I understand well the willpower to postpone to crumble, and its ok. For me it was literally almost 2 years of thinking that i better postpone it, find more info on surgeons, get more sure about myself, try be non op, no need to rush. And then it broke through-the desire to just do it that was burning under the surface all the time. I freaked out with dysphoria and got drunk that night. I made the appointment and date soon after that decisive day. My willpower sucks, but wth it was the best time to do it as i was simply ready for it and as a result i do not even regret the bad stuff that happened with srs - it sucked, but as i was in a state of really needing this, i had no regrets. If i postponed any longer, i might have had nore unrealistic hopes or would have blamed myself if sometjing went wrong.
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2013, 08:38:44 AM
Nidalexa, i tried to explain what i meant there with the male personality "deletion" in the other thread. From you description you already did that. It is that moment you just stop showing the paint and just be yourself, however tomboyish that is. It is not about getting rid of stereotypical masculine behaviours but to get rid of the automatic pattern to pretend one is a guy. I think for us on the young side this is easier as it did not have that much time to become automatic. Still, if that "deletion" happens it is more or less instant. It is the short moment you think " f that ->-bleeped-<-, i am not playing that male game anymore" and then everything falls into place. It is not an effort really, more a thing of faith, which is what made me cringe at readin that one has to "work hard to become a woman in spirit". No, one does not. It comes by itself once one lezts go of the facade. If it is hard, one may be doing it wrong and is trying to build up a new female facade in place of the old male one. Thats not the goal. The goal is to tear down that facade and just show yourself, just as you said.
Tgd. I sure hope there will be more of your comics, they are so spot on, i have to fight the urge at times to use them as memes when someone writes about something in the chat that just is like in the comic. I understand well the willpower to postpone to crumble, and its ok. For me it was literally almost 2 years of thinking that i better postpone it, find more info on surgeons, get more sure about myself, try be non op, no need to rush. And then it broke through-the desire to just do it that was burning under the surface all the time. I freaked out with dysphoria and got drunk that night. I made the appointment and date soon after that decisive day. My willpower sucks, but wth it was the best time to do it as i was simply ready for it and as a result i do not even regret the bad stuff that happened with srs - it sucked, but as i was in a state of really needing this, i had no regrets. If i postponed any longer, i might have had nore unrealistic hopes or would have blamed myself if sometjing went wrong.
Yeah, that's about exactly what I was saying. Which is partly why I disagreed with it in the other thread too.I don't like the whole "deleting the male" or saying you have to work hard to be yourself, it just isn't necessarily true. What IS true is you have to work hard to find comfort in presenting yourself the way you would like, social implications of how wrong mixing genders is has that effect. In the end, it really is just a change of mindset and you're done. I just recently said, heck with this bouncing back crap. I might not have the body, or the transitional steps, but I am so done with being called a boy or getting called uncle, it doesn't even make me sad anymore, it just aggravates the heck out of me.
So, I'm pretty much just a girl from now on. I may have facial hair still, though little. I may not have developed much boobs yet, I may not have a big wardrobe but none of that has anything to do with how much of a woman I feel like. None of it, and that's all that matters. :)
Yes, i understand the "deleting the male" part was widely misunderstood and i have to go to that thread and try correct that. It was never about erasing masculinity, but about deleting the fake shell that we put up to just get by. It just happens to be male looking. For me the analogy made sense as basically it was like i hit a delete butoon on a computer and then confirmed with yes and that was it, i could not get back to it if i wanted, i would have to build a new shell - obviously that was not what i wanted :) . Instead i just was me from that deletion-moment on even though i was not "passable" then. It was a leap of faith certainly and i think some fear that or are just too bound up in social relationships to be able to do so and for them then it is a lot of work trying to replace the outer shell bit by bit. And i think many of them will find after years that they still do not feel like they are their true self because they carefully constructed a female shell, but a shell nonetheless. I think many non trans people do this as well, just not with the gender aspect in it.
Anyways - i think with srs you will hit a point like with that being called an uncle. At some point you just want to get over with it ;) and then it really will be hard to wait, though i guess finances are a motivator if you need a certain timeline for insurance cover
Quote from: Nidalexi on October 10, 2013, 10:52:14 AM
But does it produce more than it had initially? It even says that some natal woman have trouble with lubrication.
I can't honestly say where the moisture comes from when I am aroused (I tend to be distracted at the time!) but I have been known to leave a "wet spot" and if I am in good health, I don't need artificial help to have intercourse about 20% of the time.
Wow buccal cells sound like the way to go... Will have to do more research!
If one of the top surgeons would offer it I would have a hard time turning it down. The proposed benefits do seem rather beneficial ;)
Quote from: Jennygirl on October 11, 2013, 01:22:27 PM
Wow buccal cells sound like the way to go... Will have to do more research!
If one of the top surgeons would offer it I would have a hard time turning it down. The proposed benefits do seem rather beneficial ;)
You think that's amazing, look at what the future holds for possibilities in functioning MtF uteruses I find that much more appealing than a functionally self lubricant vagina, tbch.
Yeah I guess in the future that might be possible, no matter if you've already had SRS or not. Go, future, go!
Yes indeed the buccal cells seem to be quite interesting, my guess would be that it will be a few years though, but if it is already used, maybe someone will pick it up soon. How does that work - you grow tissue from buccal cells in a lab and then use that as a skin graft? Or is it grafted onto other skin as the upper layer? I am not familiar with the technology. I wonder - if this is applied to natal women with some vaginal issues, maybe it could be used on post-ops as well. Don't know if I would get that but who knows ;)
Creating an Uterus - now that would be something :D - But that sounds like a 20-30 year schedule at least. By then I am too old for that - ah well.
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2013, 02:31:47 PM
Yes indeed the buccal cells seem to be quite interesting, my guess would be that it will be a few years though, but if it is already used, maybe someone will pick it up soon. How does that work - you grow tissue from buccal cells in a lab and then use that as a skin graft? Or is it grafted onto other skin as the upper layer? I am not familiar with the technology. I wonder - if this is applied to natal women with some vaginal issues, maybe it could be used on post-ops as well. Don't know if I would get that but who knows ;)
Creating an Uterus - now that would be something :D - But that sounds like a 20-30 year schedule at least. By then I am too old for that - ah well.
I read an article that predicted a decade, a single decade. Given that we're already creating livers, blood cells and kidneys I don't see this lasting much longer then a decade. (Though, public use you may be right)
Around that time will also probably evolve our way of life, in some ways for the better, in other for the worst. If we will be able to create entire organs with 3-D printers, it is not far fetched to say we will be able to recreate new limbs too which is beneficial to those with war injuries and what not. Not only that, but bone structure, probably not likely within my life time there will even be full body restructuring.
Aging will become obsolete, FFS, obsolete, traditional SRS, obsolete. Ever physical modification we do to bodies today will be completely and totally changeable in a much more reliable way through this technology most likely in the distant future.
Hehe - dont get carried away there ;)
And it takes many years from something first done in a lab to actual (affordable) application for everyone. So I would not wait for anything there really - this is one of the worst things people tend to do - wait for some improvement that is just around the corner. One ends up waiting and waiting always hopeful but eventually realizes that one missed out on a lot of time. Have realistic hopes is all I want to say and I think realistically creating a hormonally working Uterus is maybe 20-30 years away, one that actually can provide us wirh the capability to give birth is too far away to say anything, IMO.
The buccal technique - I think that one is really realistic and may be available within the decade.
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2013, 03:13:52 PM
Hehe - dont get carried away there ;)
And it takes many years from something first done in a lab to actual (affordable) application for everyone. So I would not wait for anything there really - this is one of the worst things people tend to do - wait for some improvement that is just around the corner. One ends up waiting and waiting always hopeful but eventually realizes that one missed out on a lot of time. Have realistic hopes is all I want to say and I think realistically creating a hormonally working Uterus is maybe 20-30 years away, one that actually can provide us wirh the capability to give birth is too far away to say anything, IMO.
The buccal technique - I think that one is really realistic and may be available within the decade.
I'm well aware, which is why I even explicitly mentioned "Likely not in my lifetime"
I'm not hoping for anything, I'm just fascinated with where our technology is heading.
I don't know what my SRS timeline will be yet but it would easily be 3-4 years away realisticly. It would be nice if the medical science of SRS was ever-evolving and made some improvements by the time it's my turn, but I think the common practices right now are good enough to not hold me back. I'll be too old for children by the time they figure out a working uterus I imagine. Maybe I'll have better luck finding a partner with a natural one on-board.
Quote from: anjaq on October 11, 2013, 11:07:29 AM
Yes, i understand the "deleting the male" part was widely misunderstood and i have to go to that thread and try correct that. It was never about erasing masculinity, but about deleting the fake shell that we put up to just get by. It just happens to be male looking. For me the analogy made sense as basically it was like i hit a delete butoon on a computer and then confirmed with yes and that was it, i could not get back to it if i wanted, i would have to build a new shell - obviously that was not what i wanted :)
'Deleting the male' can't be applied to a large group of MTF people. The word 'delete' has the connotation of speed, something instantaneous. Who has that experience as she transitions? I for one, cannot imagine it happening in an instant, but maybe I'm wrong. And Deleting the
Male? Male implies a binary state that only exists as some sort of ideal state. So I cannot go along with that part either. Maybe you meant to say Stop putting up a false front, a false stereotypical male persona? Like standing around with a group of guys talking about last night's football game, when you could really care less. I think as time goes on, that kind of thing can slowly disappear. Many stop acting that way because it's not genuine. It's not who they are anymore. It's a pretense. But, then again, she might still love rebuilding her classic Chevy.
Quote from: Gina_Z on October 11, 2013, 11:27:53 PM
'Deleting the male' can't be applied to a large group of MTF people. The word 'delete' has the connotation of speed, something instantaneous. Who has that experience as she transitions? I for one, cannot imagine it happening in an instant, but maybe I'm wrong. And Deleting the Male?
Ok, maybe my experience is different or maybe i dont get it across well. For me it was instant - ok well I had to run through several confirmation popups ;) but more or less instant. And it was not "deleting the male"! - it was "deleting the male simulation" or "deleting the stoic male (fake) persona".It has very little to do with the "male" activities and behaviours one still may have. But that instant deletionis about the part of oneself that tells us we have to do all these things to be seen as normal and not be bullied or scorned. The part of ourselves that was set up to guard our actions and thoughts so that we are not showing our true selves but pretend to be a guy. When that is deleted, basically the decision is made to not give a f anymore if people consider you a normal guy because you are not a guy at all - in that moment you are freed. and then all those behaiours and thoughts that existed only because of that will go away as you said because they dont interest you, they dont make sense, have no appeal. and others stay because they were not coming from that "fake persona". Makes more sense?