I'm a keen Youtube watcher and I'm surprised (and delighted) by the number of transgendered people who now post videoblogs on there. But many of them introduce themselves by saying "I'm a transwoman" or "I'm a T-girl", etc. etc. In some cases, you'd never know they weren't GGs unless they said so. Personally it has long been my dream to become a woman, not a transwoman or a trans-anything. If I ever achieve my dreams, I hope people will see me as a woman, full stop. Surely transwoman is only a step on the way, not the end of the journey? What do others think?
Some people crave attention.
It's a differant mindset. I wouldn't dismiss it, the mindset is there for education and advocacy purposes. It may be hard to grasp for you, but do not dismiss those who are open about thier trans identification. They do more good than harm. I wish I could say the same for those transsexual woman who insult these women for openly identifying based partly on the logic you just stated (but warped to a much further degree).
Its called advocacy and education, they are doing it in their own way. The only way they can tell their story effectively and educate is by saying they are trans, basically outing themselves. The truth is the only way people, be those who think they are transsexual or just the general public, are going to understand this issue is to use identifying words such as transwoman. Because it creates fewer complications in terms of language.
Hopefully that helps. These people are out and proud types, and you seem to be somebody who more than likely would prefer to assimilate fully without any desire to share your past and your experiences in a public way.
Any activist, advocate, and educator uses transwoman, because that is exactly what we are...transsexual women. The reason the term is there for these purposes is because assimilated or out, we do face a special set of problems most GG will never face because of who we are. The use of particular language can be used to call attention to what those issues are in a meaningful and effective way.
Quote from: louise000 on June 27, 2007, 09:56:45 AM
I'm a keen Youtube watcher and I'm surprised (and delighted) by the number of transgendered people who now post videoblogs on there. But many of them introduce themselves by saying "I'm a transwoman" or "I'm a T-girl", etc. etc. In some cases, you'd never know they weren't GGs unless they said so. Personally it has long been my dream to become a woman, not a transwoman or a trans-anything. If I ever achieve my dreams, I hope people will see me as a woman, full stop. Surely transwoman is only a step on the way, not the end of the journey? What do others think?
Personally I'm a woman for my friends, family and society in general, but in my head I'll always be a trans-woman.
Although I fully understand those that don't think the same as I do about this, for me denying the trans part of my identity would mean denying the first 20 years of my life.
Before I started transitioning I was transsexual, I then tried to believe I was a woman like any other, and then later became happy with the idea that I'm a trans-woman. It was bascially love relationships that led me to where I am now, I could never hide my past from those I really care about. I want them to know just what made me the (trans)woman I am now.
MVER XXX
some of them are truly exhibitionists.
A couple think they're all that and more...
I agree it's connected to having pride. Some of us do not want to be told that we should feel shamed by our gender variance or gender issues. I believe people should be allowed to live either 'out' or 'in' depending upon their point of view.
We cannot make progress as a group and advance our issues if everyone stays hidden. One of the reasons that our culture has been able to marginalize and denigrate us is that they had the power of fear and shame over us. Many people have suffered terrible fates because of this. Some have harmed themselves because they saw no way out. Others have been harmed by people who are homophobic and gender ignorant. If we have no presence we will have no future, and certainly, many fewer choices.
I'm not MtF as I had thought I was, I turned out to be an androgyne, but once I looked at myself as an MtF and accepted it, I was able to begin reassessing my identity in a realistic and positive way. It is imperative in my view that we have people in our group who are not afraid to self identify. Those people inspired me to overcome my self hatred. I cannot hide because I have to know that someone somewhere may be helped by understanding they are not alone.
Good question, Louise,
I actually wondered what the hell is wrong with those "out" people before I looked at my own issues. Now, they mean the world to me.
Everybody in their own way. Everybody in their own time.
Peace,
Rebecca
Quote from: Perchance on June 27, 2007, 12:49:44 PM
On the flip side, the more ignorant the populace is about transgender people, the easier it is for people to pass.
This is no doubt true, though of course the flip side of the flip side is that maybe the more people are educated, the less people actually need to pass... (Not necessarily my opinion, just a thought...)
MVER XXX
Quote from: mavieenrose on June 27, 2007, 01:03:35 PM
Quote from: Perchance on June 27, 2007, 12:49:44 PM
On the flip side, the more ignorant the populace is about transgender people, the easier it is for people to pass.
This is no doubt true, though of course the flip side of the flip side is that maybe the more people are educated, the less people actually need to pass... (Not necessarily my opinion, just a thought...)
MVER XXX
That is the way it is here in SF, very difficult to pass but no one cares. The things I see here I have seen nowhere else in the world, a poorly passing TG is barely even noticed.
Assuming I even have the option of hiding my history or not, I don't plan to go around advertising it, no.
On the other hand, I'm not planning on hiding it either. It is what it is, ya know? I don't think pretending that I'm a GG does my own psyche much good. And while I am a TS by definition or description, I don't *identify* as one. I don't want to get caught up in identifying as anything other than being me, being Kate.
It's funny though, when I first started transitioning and would bump into a neighbor or someone, I always felt I HAD to explain myself, why I was standing there presenting as a female. And now... well, I actually FORGET sometimes when I run into people - even ones who knew me as a male. It's just all becoming normal so quickly, it's really weird... and kinda neat ;)
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on June 27, 2007, 02:26:42 PM
Assuming I even have the option of hiding my history or not, I don't plan to go around advertising it, no.
On the other hand, I'm not planning on hiding it either. It is what it is, ya know? I don't think pretending that I'm a GG does my own psyche much good. And while I am a TS by definition or description, I don't *identify* as one. I don't want to get caught up in identifying as anything other than being me, being Kate.
It's funny though, when I first started transitioning and would bump into a neighbor or someone, I always felt I HAD to explain myself, why I was standing there presenting as a female. And now... well, I actually FORGET sometimes when I run into people - even ones who knew me as a male. It's just all becoming normal so quickly, it's really weird... and kinda neat ;)
~Kate~
Yes, isn't it great? I too forget that I am TS.
I have no idea. You will have to ask a transwoman or someone who wants to be one.
Quote from: regina on June 27, 2007, 07:07:43 PM
Quote from: Yvonne on June 27, 2007, 06:53:24 PM
I have no idea. You will have to ask a transwoman or someone who wants to be one.
So then my question is, how come you still post to sites about transwomen (or transsexuals, or mtfs)? I'm not saying that's wrong, but if people say they're losing their past (and perhaps it's just a process) then why come here? What does this place provide you as a woman? I hope that's not offending some of you.
ciao,
Gina M.
I just want to see how the other side of the world is living. :laugh:
Ciao
Yvonne
Not me! I would never want such a difficult life for myself!
Quote from: regina on June 27, 2007, 07:07:43 PM
Quote from: Yvonne on June 27, 2007, 06:53:24 PM
I have no idea. You will have to ask a transwoman or someone who wants to be one.
So then my question is, how come you still post to sites about transwomen (or transsexuals, or mtfs)? I'm not saying that's wrong, but if people say they're losing their past (and perhaps it's just a process) then why come here? What does this place provide you as a woman? I hope that's not offending some of you.
ciao,
Gina M.
Good question. I think I know the answer.
There are those who are "out" to be of service to others, others going through transition, others dealing with gender dysphoria, or to help change society by political or other means. Hat's off to them! What a grand thing to do! So often, I think I should have stencilled above my bathroom mirror, "It's not about you!"
Some have this role thrust upon them.
Namaste, Tara
I understand why they are doing it and I am glad they are. Would I do it? No way. All I would ever like to be is a woman, no different than one who had been born without this birth defect.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh276%2FDianneOnly%2Fkissgirl.gif&hash=35f4222bbcd6ce1f143d13ffe9d9553961a2ddd2)Kristi
Quote from: Tara on June 27, 2007, 08:24:29 PM
There are those who are "out" to be of service to others, others going through transition, others dealing with gender dysphoria, or to help change society by political or other means. Hat's off to them! What a grand thing to do! So often, I think I should have stencilled above my bathroom mirror, "It's not about you!"
Some have this role thrust upon them.
Namaste, Tara
Right, this is what I was trying to say earlier.
Rebecca
Proud to be a transwoman. I don't wear a sign, but I won't lie if someone asks. Yes, i believe my life would've been easier if I'd been born with a female body, however I accept that my past experiences have made me the person I am.
zythyra
Quote from: DawnL on October 29, 2006, 09:41:45 PM
Most of us transition hoping to lead a normal life somewhere down the road. For some people, that may involve living as a post-op transsexual, for others, it's trying to live a normal life as a woman (or man) which often requires some level of stealth.
I don't think anyone who has endured the rigors and horrors of transition is under any obligation to anyone. If you want to be out, be proud, be an activist, whatever, please do so--I
respect your choice--but please don't suggest that I have a similar obligation. I don't. The choice between out and stealth should be just that, a choice, an entirely personal decision without any expectations or obligations. I'm a woman with a transsexual history, not a transsexual, and my history is my business alone.
Dawn
Ditto!
I'm a woman with a transsexual history, not a transsexual, and my history is my business alone. I treasure this quote from Dawn very much. I really do. :)
tink :icon_chick:
I think me becoming a "transwoman" would be a step, or a state, of myself achiving my final goal. I can't do every step at once.
Why would someone who's lived with any trauma want to stay around anything that would connect them to the trauma. An example, a rape victim, why would anyone want to identify as a rape victim and be on support sites years after they're trauma? You'd think that you wouldn't want anyone to know that and st
I believe that people do it for others, for themselves; I believe people are good and want to help.
The issues of labels is one that we all face during our time on earth... when we are born we are classified into boys, girls, Male, Females and as we grow up we are clever, backword, sensitive, out going. As we grow older we become middle aged, senior and move into our dotage, all labels generated by a society, that likes to classify and put things into defined groups.
Transwoman is no different, it is a label to me that society uses to describe what I have done, but not what or who I am ... because I am a Woman (my birth certificate says so). Yes, I cannot escape from the fact that I was born the opposite to a woman (Trans) and changed to become one, but it is not a term that I would use to describe myself.
I agree with Keira, If we want to escape our past, forget our previous existence, here we get into the realms of Stealth (and all the debate that will bring), but I cannot see describing oneselves as Stealth and a Transwoman, can be compatible?
However, I think Transwoman is more of a bearable label than just being labelled Transsexual as at least the woman part gives a better understanding to society that the sexual part.
Buffy
Woman, through and through ;)
Quote from: Christine Eryn on June 27, 2007, 11:26:16 PM
I think me becoming a "transwoman" would be a step, or a state, of myself achiving my final goal. I can't do every step at once.
That's basically how I feel too, even though I yet have many steps to take.
As regards the people who post on YouTube, personally I have gained encouragement from watching those (even older ones) who are eminently passable and have mastered their voice techniques. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Quote from: regina on June 28, 2007, 09:46:56 AM
Quote from: Keira on June 27, 2007, 11:59:54 PM
Why would someone who's lived with any trauma want to stay around anything that would connect them to the trauma. An example, a rape victim, why would anyone want to identify as a rape victim and be on support sites years after they're trauma? You'd think that you wouldn't want anyone to know that and st
I believe that people do it for others, for themselves; I believe people are good and want to help.
While I believe there are some long-transitioned people who do want to help newbies, I think most people hang around this trauma because they're obsessed with it and can't let it go. It's kind of like soldiers who've been through a war an can't stop reliving a horrible experience. Perhaps not in the foreground all the time, but cyclically it comes up in an intense way. That's not a judgment about people coming back to forums or making them less than women, rather for me it just shows how powerful an experience being trans is (both in a negative and positive sense).
For me, what you say makes quite a lot of sense Gina.
As I've previously mentioned I live as a woman in society (and not as 'transsexual', or a 'trans-woman). Society doesn't label me as trans, and I have a female birth certificate and all other documents I could ever need to 'prove' that I'm not (just like the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz who receives a diploma to 'prove' he's got a brain...)
However, there are definitely times in my life when the mere fact that I spent my childhood as a boy
does affect the way I respond to people and events around me.
When colleagues jokingly ask me when I'm finally going to settle down with someone and have kids, I can't help thinking to myself I can't have kids as I don't have a womb, and I don't have a womb because I was born transsexual. It's just a natural thought process that results from facing the facts of my life.
Every day I take HRT and every so often I get blood tests done to check I'm in good health. These medical aspects of my life necessarily remind me of my trans-history.
As a boy I wanted to be a girl, not a trans-girl, and as a woman I would rather not have had to spend my childhood as a transsexual boy. But wishing things are or were different just doesn't change a thing when it comes to the truth of people's lives.
I've never believed in sweeping problems under the carpet, so I decided long ago to accept I'm a woman with a trans history (a 'transwoman'), to then get over it and just move on.
I could tell myself a thousand times a day I was a woman like any other, but what would be the point ?
MVER XXX
Hey, wait, I have an online blog on youtube. I can pass as 100%, and I do all the time. After thinking for a long time, I decided to make a blog just to show the world that trans-people are normal, regular people. It's also there to encourage others who are making the transition.
Anyway, those are my thoughts, coming from a youtube blogger herself. I have the right to say what I want on line, including that I'm trans. There's nothing wrong with that. And it certainly doesn't threaten everyone else. I'm not outing anyone except myself.
Posted on: June 28, 2007, 04:37:19 PM
And PS: For the record, I don't play "victim" on line like someone suggested, and I'm not isolated --- I have many, many friends. I go out and live my life. I'm out all over the place.
Anyway, I'm off to work, and I'm not sure if I'll comment anymore.
Posted on: June 28, 2007, 04:40:48 PM
Quote from: regina on June 28, 2007, 09:46:56 AM
Quote from: Keira on June 27, 2007, 11:59:54 PM
Why would someone who's lived with any trauma want to stay around anything that would connect them to the trauma. An example, a rape victim, why would anyone want to identify as a rape victim and be on support sites years after they're trauma? You'd think that you wouldn't want anyone to know that and st
I believe that people do it for others, for themselves; I believe people are good and want to help.
While I believe there are some long-transitioned people who do want to help newbies, I think most people hang around this trauma because they're obsessed with it and can't let it go. It's kind of like soldiers who've been through a war an can't stop reliving a horrible experience. Perhaps not in the foreground all the time, but cyclically it comes up in an intense way. That's not a judgment about people coming back to forums or making them less than women, rather for me it just shows how powerful an experience being trans is (both in a negative and positive sense). Time and again I've seen longtime transitioners come back and hang around transforums explaining how they're women, they don't need to talk about who they are, aren't trans anymore after SRS and never even think about their trans past. Well, obviously, they have SOME need to process it or they wouldn't be there. They might distance themselves from it for several decades but, at some point, feel the need to have a conversation about it. I don't believe traumas go away. We just learn to live with them and try to create a positive identity for ourselves that incorporates the trauma but hopefully not identify ourselves as victims. Some do get stuck in victimhood (you see them in every transforum) and don't know how to move forward (or don't want to).
For me, the people on YouTube (apart from sexworkers) are mostly earlier in transition who are feeling really isolated and are in need of a way to connect with others and express what they're going through. I would suspect most of them are having a hard time going outside the house, presenting themselves to other people and are stuck in their virtual world. I'm hoping that the majority of them get through that phase and get out and live. Rather than ripping on them, I would hope we could have some compassion and remember how it felt at the very beginning of dealing with these issues.
ciao,
Gina M.
And yeah, I've been living full time for a year. And yeah, I live off the so-called "virtual world." Just because I put something on the net, doesn't mean that I'm a geek behind a computer. Then again, I only come in here now and then and post now and then when I have time from living in the real world -- funny how often you post.
And yeah, I'm a being a b*tch, so suck it up. You have no right to judge me or others. You're no mis-perfect either, princess.
Posted on: June 28, 2007, 04:43:30 PM
Another thing -- if you have a problem with me, talk to me -- don't post it on the net in a low-ball way attacking my blogs. I have the right to be who I am and express myself on Youtube how I want. If I help someone, then great. If people don't care for it, then ignore me -- but lowballing me in Susans is just plain wrong!
I just can't buy into this "I'm a woman, not a transsexual" argument. It's like, who are you trying to convince? Us or yourself? If one was really a woman, they would not be here. To the best of my knowledge there are no GG here just to talk about how great it is being a GG.
It's simple, it's vanity. The very passable and sometimes attractive transsexuals want to show off how passable they are. How they can pass for "real" women. This is nonsense about "seeing how the other side lives", is just that, nonsense.
Anyone that wants to come to a transsexual site and proclaim that they are a woman and not a transsexual, I would just ask: If you are a woman? Then what did you transition from? Like I said, this is silly semantics. If you were born with a male body, you are not a woman. You are a transsexual. Stating that you are not is just another denial. All the denials in the world, all the proclaiming to be a woman, will do nothing to make you an actual woman. I spent enough of my life in denial. This is what I am. I may not like it, I may not want this for myself, but this is what I am.
Just because one is not afraid to deny one's true existence, that does not mean they want to be a transwomen. I am sure we would all have preferred to be born with the correct body. However, proclaiming you were, when you weren't is only a deception. One that many of us just can't pull off.
Love always,
Elizabeth
i'm not a gg. thinking otherwise would be delusional on my part, yet i don't advertise my transsexuality to anyone. i've chosen to live my life in stealth because this is what works for me. i don't deny my past but i don't bear it on my forehead either.
Quote from: louise000 on June 27, 2007, 09:56:45 AM
I'm a keen Youtube watcher and I'm surprised (and delighted) by the number of transgendered people who now post videoblogs on there. But many of them introduce themselves by saying "I'm a transwoman" or "I'm a T-girl", etc. etc. In some cases, you'd never know they weren't GGs unless they said so. Personally it has long been my dream to become a woman, not a transwoman or a trans-anything. If I ever achieve my dreams, I hope people will see me as a woman, full stop. Surely transwoman is only a step on the way, not the end of the journey? What do others think?
Hi,
I just want to remind readers of the 1st post of this thread. It is just an innocent question asking "who wants to be a transwoman?" I believe that Louise was just curious as to why people would identify as trans. The scope of this topic does not include the mental health of people who identify as trans. Another dimension to the question is obviously "does anyone identify as a transwoman".
Louise, I am not trying to put words into your mouth or to distort the meaning of your inquiry, so please correct me if I'm wrong and I will modify (or delete) this post so as not to offend you.
Anyway, the fact is that some people
do identify as transpeople. The reasons they do so is for themselves. There is nothing wrong with it and it certainly does not signify a sign of mental illness, or attention grabbing. There is no reason to attack anyone who does identify as trans. It is their right as individuals to do so.
In my view, people who openly identify as trans are helping us all by giving us visibility. I'm not saying that every single one of them is doing us a favor. Every group has at least several overly colorful characters in it. But they are living according to their rights as human beings.
Those who would like to live without having that trans label have every right to do so. They also provide a service to the community by living integrated lives within the society.
Please do not have an argument that is beyond the intention of this thread. If someone wants to start a fistfight over this, you should start your own thread, state your position, create a few boundaries, and have at it.
I really liked this thread because there are some of us who only want to understand others without judging them or their motivations. But it's beginning to cause my stomach to hurt when I read it now.
Please please please stay on topic or else start your own thread. Obviously, I don't handle tension too well. I'm not picking on anyone in particular, I am responding to the messages not the writers.
Thank you,
Rebecca
I feel like a woman who was born with a birth defect, women have told me that I am absolutely without question as much as a woman as any of them but even without that validation, I would still feel the same, I am a woman, pure and simple.
I do not want to get into an argument about this but I feel it is up to the individual as to how she perceives herself. I don't think it's appropriate to tell people that because I feel one way that all so-called transsexuals should feel that way.
Quote from: RebeccaFog on June 28, 2007, 07:40:41 PM
[Hi,
I just want to remind readers of the 1st post of this thread. It is just an innocent question asking "who wants to be a transwoman?" I believe that Louise was just curious as to why people would identify as trans. The scope of this topic does not include the mental health of people who identify as trans. Another dimension to the question is obviously "does anyone identify as a transwoman".
Louise, I am not trying to put words into your mouth or to distort the meaning of your inquiry, so please correct me if I'm wrong and I will modify (or delete) this post so as not to offend you.
Thank you,
Rebecca
Hi Rebecca, Yes, I go along with everything you say. It was not my intention to spark off a debate which would be offensive to anyone. We all have enough hassles in our way of life without offending each other.
Best wishes, Louise
Quote from: regina on June 28, 2007, 03:55:59 PM
LVER:
Je vien de voir le film qui s'appel "La Vie en Rose" au sujet de la vie de Edith Piaf. C'etait formidable, surtout l'actrice Marion Cotillard. Vous en avez vu? Mais si triste. En France, je pense que cet film s'appel, "La Mome." le titre que je prefere. Pardonnez ma mauvaise épellation!
Very sorry everyone for going off topic for a moment...Hi Gina,
Your French is very good indeed :)
Haven't yet seen the film, but I do plan to soon (and yes it is called 'la Mome' - the kid -in French).
Of course my post name is a reference to another film, simply my favourite film of all; it makes me cry buckets of sadness and joy every time I watch it!
Gros bisous
MVER XXX
(Thought I'd reply in English so as not to perturbe other posters here...)
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 28, 2007, 06:01:07 PMIf you were born with a male body, you are not a woman. You are a transsexual.
This is every bit as wrong as telling people they aren't transsexual because they haven't done 'X'. I AM a woman, my "gender" is female and that's not changing. My "sex" is male and that will change. But after surgery I will go from being a woman with a male body to being a woman that has had transsexual surgery. SRS doesn't make me "a transsexual" any more than fixing a problem with my appendix would make me "an appendectomy".
I will be first in line to defend you identifying as transsexual no questions asked, but suggest you reconsider your stance and allow other people the same right of self identification.
Well put nikki, BTW my real name is nikki!
LOL Nikki. That's it. I am now defining myself as an appendectomy.
Dennis
Quote from: Dennis on June 29, 2007, 07:41:19 PM
LOL Nikki. That's it. I am now defining myself as an appendectomy.
Dennis
i have considered defining myself as a lithoscopy ha ha Ouch!
Quote from: Nikki on June 29, 2007, 01:13:37 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 28, 2007, 06:01:07 PMIf you were born with a male body, you are not a woman. You are a transsexual.
This is every bit as wrong as telling people they aren't transsexual because they haven't done 'X'. I AM a woman, my "gender" is female and that's not changing. My "sex" is male and that will change. But after surgery I will go from being a woman with a male body to being a woman that has had transsexual surgery. SRS doesn't make me "a transsexual" any more than fixing a problem with my appendix would make me "an appendectomy".
I will be first in line to defend you identifying as transsexual no questions asked, but suggest you reconsider your stance and allow other people the same right of self identification.
There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women. This is just a denial, in my opinion. One can deny what their body really is, or one can accept it and do what needs to be done to correct it.
All transsexualism is self diagnosed. The definition of GID is a feeling that one is a gender other than that of their body. Again, one may feel female all they want, but unless one is born female the only way to have one's birth certificate say that is to TRANSITION from having the body of one gender to the other, hence the term Transsexual. And in some States like Texas, you will always be whatever one was born with regardless of surgery.
Like I said, this is just semantics. To say one is a woman when one does not have a woman's body is a key symptom of GID. But just saying so, does not make it so. It requires transitioning. Anyone that transitions is by definition a transsexual, despite semantics.
Katia,
I see living stealth as a totally different issue. Not proclaiming one's transsexuality is not the same as being in denial about the true nature of our existence. It is getting on with one's life and what I expect most transsexuals will do. I am sure once my transition is complete I also will refer to myself as a female, even though technically I will still be transsexual. The whole idea has been to live my life as a female, not a transsexual. Having said that, I also would never deny being transsexual if the subject came up.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 30, 2007, 12:45:00 AM
There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women. This is just a denial, in my opinion.
In response...
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 15, 2007, 11:53:07 PM
This site is kind of annoying because they use Harry Benjamin's name to make it look all official when really it's just one person's opinion. A person with no credentials, I might add. This person makes up their terminology and makes no citations for the things they say or claim. I think sites like this do everyone a huge disservice. This site is really promoting what they believe transsexualism is and it's contrary to what Harry Benjamin himself wrote and I have posted here on this site. This is just another person trying to pigeon hole people and call anyone not like them a sexual fetishist. Very disappointing.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Insert your name instead of Harry Benjamin's and it fits what you are saying. You are are every bit as wrong as people who tell you you are not transsexual. Other people have the same right to identify as women that you have to identify as transsexual and not as a woman. If telling people they aren't transsexual isn't acceptable around here neither should telling people they aren't women.
I didn't transition to become a woman, I was always a woman, except when I was a girl. I transitioned to make my outer body match my inner spirit. The fact that I am a woman has been confirmed countless times by others, especially women. I am not in denial about anything, I know what a am. A woman.
And after SRS and I really get my voice down, I will deny that I am trans to anyone except those I might become intimate with. I don't know, I don't want to tell someone else what she is or what to feel but it seems that most transsexuals have this firm belief that they are women, pure and simple.
I think what's confusing is that the term "transsexual" can be used as:
1) A scientific diagnosis to describe people who identify as the opposite sex
and
2) A form of self-identity
Some people diagnosed as transsexuals identify as women, and some identify as transsexuals. That's a personal choice, neither being less valid than the other.
But seen in this light, it's possible to be a transsexual (from a scientific point of view) as well as a woman (as a form of identification).
~Kate~
Quote from: melissa90299 on June 30, 2007, 08:17:09 AM
I didn't transition to become a woman, I was always a woman, except when I was a girl. I transitioned to make my outer body match my inner spirit. The fact that I am a woman has been confirmed countless times by others, especially women. I am not in denial about anything, I know what a am. A woman.
And after SRS and I really get my voice down, I will deny that I am trans to anyone except those I might become intimate with. I don't know, I don't want to tell someone else what she is or what to feel but it seems that most transsexuals have this firm belief that they are women, pure and simple.
Utterly perfect! you get a cookie today! ;)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on June 30, 2007, 01:08:11 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on June 30, 2007, 08:17:09 AM
I didn't transition to become a woman, I was always a woman, except when I was a girl. I transitioned to make my outer body match my inner spirit. The fact that I am a woman has been confirmed countless times by others, especially women. I am not in denial about anything, I know what a am. A woman.
And after SRS and I really get my voice down, I will deny that I am trans to anyone except those I might become intimate with. I don't know, I don't want to tell someone else what she is or what to feel but it seems that most transsexuals have this firm belief that they are women, pure and simple.
Utterly perfect! you get a cookie today! ;)
tink :icon_chick:
Stop it, Tink. You're scaring me!! :'( :'( :icon_cry2: :icon_weirdface: (the avatar)
I don't think a transsexual who calls him/herself simply a man or woman, is denying their chromosomes or their transition. Unless of course, they are completely delusional.
Currently, I call myself a man, but also an ftm transsexual. I expect after transition, I will simply be a man with female genitalia.
Some people wish to keep the transsexual label. Others do not.
Quote from: Nikki on June 30, 2007, 08:15:53 AM
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 30, 2007, 12:45:00 AM
There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women. This is just a denial, in my opinion.
In response...
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 15, 2007, 11:53:07 PM
This site is kind of annoying because they use Harry Benjamin's name to make it look all official when really it's just one person's opinion. A person with no credentials, I might add. This person makes up their terminology and makes no citations for the things they say or claim. I think sites like this do everyone a huge disservice. This site is really promoting what they believe transsexualism is and it's contrary to what Harry Benjamin himself wrote and I have posted here on this site. This is just another person trying to pigeon hole people and call anyone not like them a sexual fetishist. Very disappointing.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Insert your name instead of Harry Benjamin's and it fits what you are saying. You are are every bit as wrong as people who tell you you are not transsexual. Other people have the same right to identify as women that you have to identify as transsexual and not as a woman. If telling people they aren't transsexual isn't acceptable around here neither should telling people they aren't women.
I think perhaps you have misunderstood me. I agree with you that identifying as a woman is every person's right. I do so myself. That was kinda my point to Katia and living in stealth. I expect every transsexual to identify as the gender they are transitioning to. I don't normally tell people I am transsexual, I tell them I am a woman.
Having said that, there is a difference between saying "I am a woman" and saying "I am not transsexual". I am a woman, but I was not born with a woman's body. That means that I am transsexual. I don't have any problem at all with anyone proclaiming they are the gender they are transitioning to. What I have a problem with is denying one's transsexuality. In my honest opinion it is a denial to say one is not transsexual, when one is.
I am sorry for not choosing my words more carefully and making myself clear. What I object to is denying one transsexuality in an attempt of elevating one's status, i.e. "I am not a transsexual, I am a woman". This is a false statement if one is born with male genitalia. It is a denial. Wouldn't we all like to be considered the gender we feel ourselves to be? But if we were, we would not be here having this nice little chat.
Again, I am sorry for not making myself more clear. I am in no way suggesting that anyone should not feel how they feel. I just think we have to be honest about what we are. Really I think this is all just a matter of semantics. The only thing I am against is denying the true nature of what we are. Maybe I have it all wrong and it's a good thing, but to me it just seems like another denial that serves no purpose other than to blind us about who we are and what we need to do.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 30, 2007, 05:45:19 PM
Quote from: Nikki on June 30, 2007, 08:15:53 AM
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 30, 2007, 12:45:00 AM
There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women. This is just a denial, in my opinion.
In response...
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 15, 2007, 11:53:07 PM
This site is kind of annoying because they use Harry Benjamin's name to make it look all official when really it's just one person's opinion. A person with no credentials, I might add. This person makes up their terminology and makes no citations for the things they say or claim. I think sites like this do everyone a huge disservice. This site is really promoting what they believe transsexualism is and it's contrary to what Harry Benjamin himself wrote and I have posted here on this site. This is just another person trying to pigeon hole people and call anyone not like them a sexual fetishist. Very disappointing.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Insert your name instead of Harry Benjamin's and it fits what you are saying. You are are every bit as wrong as people who tell you you are not transsexual. Other people have the same right to identify as women that you have to identify as transsexual and not as a woman. If telling people they aren't transsexual isn't acceptable around here neither should telling people they aren't women.
I think perhaps you have misunderstood me. I agree with you that identifying as a woman is every person's right. I do so myself. That was kinda my point to Katia and living in stealth. I expect every transsexual to identify as the gender they are transitioning to. I don't normally tell people I am transsexual, I tell them I am a woman.
Having said that, there is a difference between saying "I am a woman" and saying "I am not transsexual". I am a woman, but I was not born with a woman's body. That means that I am transsexual. I don't have any problem at all with anyone proclaiming they are the gender they are transitioning to. What I have a problem with is denying one's transsexuality. In my honest opinion it is a denial to say one is not transsexual, when one is.
I am sorry for not choosing my words more carefully and making myself clear. What I object to is denying one transsexuality in an attempt of elevating one's status, i.e. "I am not a transsexual, I am a woman". This is a false statement if one is born with male genitalia. It is a denial. Wouldn't we all like to be considered the gender we feel ourselves to be? But if we were, we would not be here having this nice little chat.
Again, I am sorry for not making myself more clear. I am in no way suggesting that anyone should not feel how they feel. I just think we have to be honest about what we are. Really I think this is all just a matter of semantics. The only thing I am against is denying the true nature of what we are. Maybe I have it all wrong and it's a good thing, but to me it just seems like another denial that serves no purpose other than to blind us about who we are and what we need to do.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Thanks for clarifying. I think we're on the same page with this one. I am a man, but I would never deny being a transman.
Quote from: Nikki on June 30, 2007, 08:15:53 AM
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 30, 2007, 12:45:00 AM
There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women. This is just a denial, in my opinion.
In response...
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 15, 2007, 11:53:07 PM
This site is kind of annoying because they use Harry Benjamin's name to make it look all official when really it's just one person's opinion. A person with no credentials, I might add. This person makes up their terminology and makes no citations for the things they say or claim. I think sites like this do everyone a huge disservice. This site is really promoting what they believe transsexualism is and it's contrary to what Harry Benjamin himself wrote and I have posted here on this site. This is just another person trying to pigeon hole people and call anyone not like them a sexual fetishist. Very disappointing.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Insert your name instead of Harry Benjamin's and it fits what you are saying. You are are every bit as wrong as people who tell you you are not transsexual. Other people have the same right to identify as women that you have to identify as transsexual and not as a woman. If telling people they aren't transsexual isn't acceptable around here neither should telling people they aren't women.
First of all, that site is claiming to be an official site, when really it is just a site about one person's opinion. They make it look like it was written from some authoritative information, when really it's just the authors opinion.
There is a difference between a person identifying as a woman and actually being a woman. Denying one is transsexual is a denial, it's not hypocritical. I have never denied what I have written is my opinion. I have not tried to pass it off peer reviewed work. And then to misquote me from another thread, and smite me because you don't understand what I am saying in an attempt somehow make your own point more valid, is a waste of my time.
I believe my reputation stands on it's own merits. A smite from someone with an agenda does not hurt nor bother me. But remember, this is a dangerous game you embark upon. You now have said that smite is what you do to anyone you disagree with. Just remember you set the stage.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Elizabeth,
If the below statements were intended to say that "I agree with you that identifying as a woman is every person's right... ...I don't have any problem at all with anyone proclaiming they are the gender they are transitioning to. What I have a problem with is denying one's transsexuality... ...What I object to is denying one transsexuality in an attempt of elevating one's status" I most certainly did not get that from what you said.
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 28, 2007, 06:01:07 PMIf you were born with a male body, you are not a woman. You are a transsexual. Stating that you are not is just another denial. All the denials in the world, all the proclaiming to be a woman, will do nothing to make you an actual woman.
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 30, 2007, 12:45:00 AM
There is a difference between how one feels about themselves and what they are. To say one feels like a woman is one thing, to say one is a woman is another. Women don't transition to be women.
Quote from: Elizabeth on June 30, 2007, 05:45:19 PM"I am not a transsexual, I am a woman". This is a false statement if one is born with male genitalia.
I do not consider myself "a transsexual" I consider myself "a woman". To me transition is a cure not an identity. However do I consider myself any better than you because I don't identify as "a transsexual"? Absolutely not: post op, pre op, GG, non op, woman, denial, whatever they aren't tiers we achieve, a GG is not better than a pre-op, a pre-op is not better than someone in denial. That said I do wish I had 1/10th your courage to just be myself damn the torpedoes.
Do I have an agenda? Yes. Am I playing any games? No.
What we, what many people and communities in this world need is simple acceptance for who we are. That doesn't mean giving up your opinions, but it does mean you don't need to tell them you think they are wrong. Do I personally believe Kate is a "Faery" or "Changeling"? No Would I tell her I don't believe she is? No(except to make this point, Sorry Kate)
If someone tells you "You are not a transsexual, in my opinion." does appending ",in my opinion" make you feel they accept you in a way that just saying "You are not a transsexual." doesn't? To me both statements are opinions and both are telling the recipient I don't accept your belief about yourself. Appending the words ",in my opinion" doesn't modify what was said.
Yes I have an agenda, I want to see every man, woman, transsexual, faery, or anything else someone identifies as simply accepted for who they are without our community telling them no you aren't because... <insert reason>
Our community and every other community will benefit greatly if the world ever becomes accepting of one another. But that change doesn't start with our family and friends or with anti discrimination laws as important as those may be. It starts right here in our own community. Only when we can look at each other and say I accept you for who you are can we go to others and say accept me for who I am. As long as we bicker among ourselves about who's a woman, who's a transsexual, or any other rulers how can we go to the rest of the world and say accept me for the woman or man I am simply because I say I am?
I didn't smite you simply because I disagreed with you, I'm an opinionated bitch that does a lot of disagreeing. I smote you because I read your post as challenging Yvonne's identity in a way that I strongly believe fundamentally harms our community and our world, and when I called you on it you stood by what you said. If you think smiting is a "dangerous game" smite away. I don't have a whooping 8 reputation points because I try to say what's popular and collect brownie points.
You may also call yourself a rubber ball. You can call yourself whatever you want. But just because you say it, don't make it so. All of us MtF transsexuals are women. That is how you know. However we were not born with women's bodies. Just as we weren't born rubber balls. Now if you want to call yourself a rubber ball, you can, but don't expect me to agree with you that I see a rubber ball, when I don't.
And that is precisely what you are doing. I am not saying anyone can not identify anyway they want, just don't expect everyone is going to go along with it because you might be offended if we don't. That is why you smited me. I never said, "hey Yvonne, don't identify as a woman". I said you can call yourself a woman all you want, but to me, if you were born with a man's body but feel like a woman, you are transsexual.
I mean, are you going to use smite to force everyone to see things your way? We have women who are born women, we have men who are born men, that feel good about their gender. Then we have people with women's bodies that feel like they are men and people born with male bodies that feel female, those people are transsexuals. They can say they are women or men, they can choose to believe it. And smiting me won't make them believe it any more. It also will not intimidate me and change my view. We are what we are.
Love always,
Elizbeth
Smite Smite Smite to all of you! Ha Ha
I am going to say this one more time. I wasn't born a man. I was never a man. If anyone wants to think she was born a man, so be it, shout it to the rooftops. But I was never a man.
Posted on: July 01, 2007, 08:28:25 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 01, 2007, 08:14:20 PM
Y We are what we are.
Love always,
Elizbeth
No, you are what you are.
I am what I am which is obviously fundamentally different than you.
Quote from: melissa90299 on July 01, 2007, 08:30:29 PM
I am going to say this one more time. I wasn't born a man. I was never a man. If anyone wants to think she was born a man, so be it, shout it to the rooftops. But I was never a man.
Posted on: July 01, 2007, 08:28:25 PM
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 01, 2007, 08:14:20 PM
Y We are what we are.
Love always,
Elizbeth
No, you are what you are.
I am what I am which is obviously fundamentally different than you.
:) ;)
tink :icon_chick:
From elizabeth's home page
QuoteHi, I am Elizabeth.
I am a 45 year old man, father of 4 and remarried a year ago.
I am now out of the closet, and have really been learning who I am.
I am a man who has always felt like a woman on the inside. I am a
Transexual. While I don't know if I will ever become a woman, I have now been dressing
as one full time for over two years now. I have been accepted by my
kids, their friends, my friends, and pretty much the public at large.
In fact, I really feel I get treated better dressed a woman, than as a man.
Liz, I have never, ever felt like this AT ALL. I have always known that I was female, unequivocally and to the very core of my being. Obviously, you have something very different going on. I suggest, as I am taught in my recovery, that you deal with your issues and let us deal with ours.
It is really aggravating to come here for support and be told that we are in denial by someone who is not experiencing the same feelings that we are.
This whole thing just comes down to semantics. I am a man. I was always a man (or boy).
I was born in a female body. I have to transition.
I don't really get this whole debate. I mean transwomen aren't denying they were born in a male body, right?
So, what's this all about, anyway?
The fundamental difference is that we (those who oppose Eliz POV) consider ourselves women, who jut happen to have this condition while Elizabeth considers herself a man who has decided to transition to become a woman.
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 01, 2007, 08:14:20 PM
You may also call yourself a rubber ball. You can call yourself whatever you want. But just because you say it, don't make it so. All of us MtF transsexuals are women. That is how you know. However we were not born with women's bodies. Just as we weren't born rubber balls. Now if you want to call yourself a rubber ball, you can, but don't expect me to agree with you that I see a rubber ball, when I don't.
And that is precisely what you are doing. I am not saying anyone can not identify anyway they want, just don't expect everyone is going to go along with it because you might be offended if we don't. That is why you smited me. I never said, "hey Yvonne, don't identify as a woman". I said you can call yourself a woman all you want, but to me, if you were born with a man's body but feel like a woman, you are transsexual.
I never told you to agree with anyone. And quite clearly said the opposite.
Quote from: Elizabeth on July 01, 2007, 08:14:20 PMI mean, are you going to use smite to force everyone to see things your way? We have women who are born women, we have men who are born men, that feel good about their gender. Then we have people with women's bodies that feel like they are men and people born with male bodies that feel female, those people are transsexuals. They can say they are women or men, they can choose to believe it. And smiting me won't make them believe it any more. It also will not intimidate me and change my view. We are what we are.
Smite is neither a tool of force nor intimidation.
Quote from: Susan on June 27, 2007, 08:03:50 PM
Negative smites should not be used unless a post clearly violates the rules, policies of the site, or the spirit of our community.
I detailed to BeverlyAnn where I saw a problem with your post.
However smite is apparently a very bad tool to use under any situation. The smite has totally derailed the situation and taken front and center stage, clouding any ability to discuss anything else.
Quote from: melissa90299 on July 01, 2007, 09:02:25 PM
The fundamental difference is that we (those who oppose Eliz POV) consider ourselves women, who jut happen to have this condition while Elizabeth considers herself a man who has decided to transition to become a woman.
Thanks for clarifying. That's how I feel too; I'm a man who was born with a condition that caused me to be labeled something I am not. I am not a woman who decided she'd rather be a man. I always was a man.
In my opinion, the gist of the question is "who identifies as a transwoman, and why would you do so?"
There are like about 2 possible answers:
1. [NO] I am a woman and do not identify as a transwoman. I identify as a woman and see no need to incorporate my birth error into my identity. I take pride entirely in my womanhood.
2. [YES] I am a transwoman because I am incorporating all of my experiences into who I am now. I identify as such and I do it as a point of personal pride.
Neither answer is wrong. Neither answer infers that the other answer is wrong. Once you choose an answer, there is no reason or need to worry about what someone else has answered.
I do not understand why some of you are concerned over others' answers. One of the perfect answers was Katia's. Direct, to the point, about herself with no inferences or judgment concerning the alternative answers.
To be honest, I am not a TS and maybe my Null Gendered brain is missing something, however, I believe in peace.
Really, I'm only saying this because I don't understand the tensions. I'm not taking sides or picking on anybody.
Im a woman. Do I need to use the term trans? if your answer is yes, do I, then, need to tell you that Im also an ex-bulimic, a cancer survivor, a recovering alcoholic, a woman with a heart illness, a woman with Lupus?
I dont think anybody would care to hear about my medical conditions unless that person can medically help me.
Quote from: melissa90299 on July 01, 2007, 09:02:25 PM
The fundamental difference is that we (those who oppose Eliz POV) consider ourselves women, who jut happen to have this condition while Elizabeth considers herself a man who has decided to transition to become a woman.
Thanks for telling me what I am and how I feel. I am sure you must know better than me. For some reason it bothers you that I am not afraid to admit I was born with a male body. As far a making decisions, you are just being insulting now, not much point of continuing this debate.
You know how to get the last word in every argument?
"Oh, you must be right".
I guess you are right. You are a woman, that is a vagina between your legs and you really are not on a transsexual web site trying to make yourself better than others here. I am a man who is different than you, because of course, you are a woman. I guess all that money for transition can be spent on something else, since you won't be needing it, since of course, you are already a woman. Perhaps you could give it to me, one of the unfortunate people born with a male body who has "decided" to become a woman.
Fundamentally different? You bet we are, but is has nothing to do with how we were born or what we feel about our gender. Again, my apologies, I guess I am just not as good as all of you who were born women. Somehow I will have to deal with this male body and the challenges it presents, without your guidence, since you obviously don't know what it's like having the wrong body.
Love always,
Elizabeth
As the originator of this thread I am going to wind it up right now. It's becoming rather nasty with members trading insults. It was intended to be an informed debate. Sorry to have to do this.
Louise