Susan's Place Transgender Resources

There seems to be a curious debate about how far you need to go to validate your woman hood. I just started HRT and I already feel like a woman. I don't know . Ideally I'd like to accomplish what has all ways been in me. Hopefully I can. Is it really important where your finish line is.

It clearly depends on your perception of yourself. I'm pre-everything, and only dress part time, but I consider myself a woman.

being a woman is a state of mind, not a state of body, if you ask me.

Oriah, love the new picture!

Hugs, Devlyn

Thanks Devlyn!  I'm liking yours too.  What a cute little mousey.

Of course! Not everyone wants the surgery, nor should everyone get it. Gender is a social construct. It's about how one interacts with the world, not about what's between your legs.

Quote from: Oriah on December 20, 2013, 06:07:32 PM
being a woman is a state of mind, not a state of body, if you ask me.

I say do what makes you happy and screw what anyone else thinks. That goes for both the transphobic types and the "more trans than you" crowd.

Quote from: evecrook on December 20, 2013, 06:00:14 PM
There seems to be a curious debate about how far you need to go to validate your woman hood. I just started HRT and I already feel like a woman. I don't know . Ideally I'd like to accomplish what has all ways been in me. Hopefully I can. Is it really important where your finish line is.

There should be no debate.  Transition is individualized.

im glad that you posed the question cause it seems to bring a more blunt and forward air to the answers people give.

personally i think that it probably has a lot to do with genetic or not (how you percieve the question) balls dont make a man. nor does muscle. and i would say being needlessly violent ( or just plain violent where women are concerned) makes you not a man period. nor a woman.

same with women. a vagina doesnt make a woman.

thats my view as a man. as a tomboy with girlish tendencies ( heehee. lets see a therapist deal with that one) id say ultimately it should be irrelevant. and therefore is a matter of preference and perception. i just think the waters murkier for identifying as a man. simply really for the violence against women issue. men who commit violence against women arent men.

anyway. my 2 pennies

I think it's fuzzy at this point, I'll have to say I'm way past being a guy, and I have never identified as androgynous, I guess that makes me a lady.

I do have some personal hangups such as: I would not snag a guy at a local bar to bring home pre-op.
I tend to be far more private than an average lady in ladies spaces, then again I hid back in males spaces too, as I hated my body.
For example I always hoped no one in the mens locker room noticed I shaved my whole body, despite really hating the hair enough I have been doing that for twenty years. Until just a few years ago, a hairless male was gauche.
I really desire to have female type sexual activity, but I don't ignore my sexuality currently either. I almost consider it a pragmatic maintenance thing, so there isn't too much atrophy to deal with at SRS, after all I will have a daily maintenance as post-op too.
I'm not contraindicated as female by being a sentimental, melancholy, and empathetic person.
In short, this isn't guy perception, this isn't guy behavior, this isn't gay guy either, it's indeed as a lady I proceed.

Some women are perfectly content without getting surgery.  After all your gender is between your ears, not your legs.   A few years ago, a transphobic guy told me that if you have a penis, you're a man, period the end.  If you don't, you're a woman and that's all there is to it.   I had to ask him if he'd suddenly identify as a woman if his was ever bitten off.

My nuts are out the window in 3 months or so.  Ask me if that's enough when it happens.

Quote from: Jill F on December 20, 2013, 07:43:46 PM
A few years ago, a transphobic guy told me that if you have a penis, you're a man, period the end.  If you don't, you're a woman and that's all there is to it.   I had to ask him if he'd suddenly identify as a woman if his was ever bitten off.

Lol that reminds me of a part in Calpernia Addams's video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqsB1huDxg&feature=player_detailpage#t=520

Thinking I am going to get five or so t shirts that say "I am a zebra", the next one will say "I am a turtle", the next one will say "I am a rino", ect., ect. I will wear them on different days and  I will walk around and tell people that I am that animal that my shirt says I am. Remember I am whatever I think I am because its in my head. Never mind that not one person will believe me if I tell them I am a zebra. LOL.

Crap come to think of it........since we are whatever we say we are why the hell do we even transition? I mean we can present to the world a boy and tell everyone we are a woman.....It would save a ton of money and hard work.

Remember is all in your head!

Katie

Gender is mental. It has to do with how one views themself, but it also has to do with how others view a person.

No one cares about your bigoted views. Hugs, Devlyn

A lot of transsexuals cant have "the op" for a lot of reasons, A lot simply dont want it.
A persons surgical status is meaningless

I'm currently pre-op, I intend on having srs but, the fact I haven't had it yet doesn't make me any less of a girl. And, if I never have it, I'll still be a girl. I always was and will be, that's what being born transsexual means.

Quote from: Katie on December 20, 2013, 08:36:49 PM
Thinking I am going to get five or so t shirts that say "I am a zebra", the next one will say "I am a turtle", the next one will say "I am a rino", ect., ect. I will wear them on different days and  I will walk around and tell people that I am that animal that my shirt says I am. Remember I am whatever I think I am because its in my head. Never mind that not one person will believe me if I tell them I am a zebra. LOL.

Crap come to think of it........since we are whatever we say we are why the hell do we even transition? I mean we can present to the world a boy and tell everyone we are a woman.....It would save a ton of money and hard work.

Remember is all in your head!

Katie

You do realize that some transphobic types use that same argument against transpeople that.... :o....have had GRS done? There are plenty of people that don't give a damn about how much money you spent to "mutilate your body" (as they often see it), you are still a man in their eyes. So, what is the point of ragging on transwomen that haven't had surgery? You DO realize that they lump us all in the same boat despite what you want to keep telling yourself?

Awwww, and the drama started... Come on, there is no need... pretty well answered already I think, its an individuals prerogative.  And not to feed any trolling, but that has no application at all to this topic katie

@ katie. since gender roles are an evolutionary function brought on by hunter gatherer needs and functions and probably accentuated with things like jewelry and clothing as a form of marking individual women as territory ( no source but seriously. think about it. )its irrelevant anyway. were all assigning meaning and purpose to something that is purely evolutionary and to throw venom into the conversation is unnecessary.

though you arent the only one and i feel like maybe you were joking.
also. she was expressing her opinion. as a pre op ( maybe never op) chick i can identify with that viewpoint. the venom isnt necessary from anyone. though its refreshing to see open opinions without the dampening of harsh points come on. be blunt. but keep it friendly. if we cant even get along whats the point in a discussion  forum. i think thats part of the reason my topic got locked. i dont even wanna check
@ ash actually its spot on. good point made with a bad metaphor



@ tori
i think it has more to do now with whats expected of you by society. not how they view you.

Honestly, no, no its not just a bad metaphor...this is more than a I'm putting on a tshirt to prove a point, at least to me

Umm my post never said anything about surgery whatsoever. I am sorry that your one of the people that cant read what someone types. I really am sorry.

Honestly, I totally am not offended in the least.  Just saying it wasn't pertinent to the question

Quote from: Katie on December 20, 2013, 09:25:03 PM
Umm my post never said anything about surgery whatsoever. I am sorry that your one of the people that cant read what someone types. I really am sorry.

You have been making your point quite clear. You can shove your fake apology.

Well noname, if we are picking nits, it would be more like,how well one fits into society's collective and individual expctations.

Words...

Good discussion.

this question is set in stone by society.following a common path that everyone 'must' abide by,in order to remain within its acceptance but couldn't another ask such thinkers 'do you feel human? Or do you 'know' you are human?' The physical form has been the center of society's attention,accepting what fits an 'image' while the rest is cast to the side but doesn't being 'human' have many parts? Do are fingers help to grasp and hold tightly? And our toes give us balance and stability but what of the heart and mind? Do they not lead us,allow us to see and feel but also to build character? Find for yourself,your own path but may it be honest and not one carved by the masses.

Yes! I don't think anyone is qualified to judge this but the woman herself - if you think you are, you are.

As I said elsewhere today, my "sex change" was the day I changed my sex marker on all my legal documentation. The day I became a woman was the day I decided I was one (but I'm OK with the fact that no one else treated me that way until I told/showed them that, I don't expect telepathy).

GRS was a finishing touch put on my body so I was comfortable with *myself.* It's no one's business but mine, my wife's, and occasionally a doctor's. I still refuse to tell random people what's in my pants, b/c if they want to determine how to treat me based on that... I don't want anything to do with them.

I agree some people just will never see you as a women no matter what regardless of what you do.   If surgery is what defines someone than it just superficial.
Being trans has nothing to do with surgery

Quote from: nonameyet on December 20, 2013, 09:04:11 PM
@ katie. since gender roles are an evolutionary function brought on by hunter gatherer needs and functions and probably accentuated with things like jewelry and clothing as a form of marking individual women as territory ( no source but seriously. think about it. )its irrelevant anyway. were all assigning meaning and purpose to something that is purely evolutionary and to throw venom into the conversation is unnecessary.

though you arent the only one and i feel like maybe you were joking.
also. she was expressing her opinion. as a pre op ( maybe never op) chick i can identify with that viewpoint. the venom isnt necessary from anyone. though its refreshing to see open opinions without the dampening of harsh points come on. be blunt. but keep it friendly. if we cant even get along whats the point in a discussion  forum. i think thats part of the reason my topic got locked. i dont even wanna check
@ ash actually its spot on. good point made with a bad metaphor



@ tori
i think it has more to do now with whats expected of you by society. not how they view you.

Just a minor point, we aren't a discussion forum here, we are a support forum. There is a world of difference.  Sure, we can discuss things, but if it's hurting someone, then, no, we can't discuss it.  The support always takes precedent.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Katie on December 20, 2013, 08:36:49 PM
Thinking I am going to get five or so t shirts that say "I am a zebra", the next one will say "I am a turtle", the next one will say "I am a rino", ect., ect. I will wear them on different days and  I will walk around and tell people that I am that animal that my shirt says I am. Remember I am whatever I think I am because its in my head. Never mind that not one person will believe me if I tell them I am a zebra. LOL.

Crap come to think of it........since we are whatever we say we are why the hell do we even transition? I mean we can present to the world a boy and tell everyone we are a woman.....It would save a ton of money and hard work.

Remember is all in your head!

Katie

The reply to that idea is found in this blog post:

11. "I'm actually a feline trapped in a human's body. Can I get can surgery to make me a cat?"

Also known as the "I think I'm funny, but I'm not," answer. Generally used by guys who watch South Park.

When people use this argument, they assume that transgender people are mentally ill (they're not), assume it's a delusion that can be cured (wrong), and ignores one key fact. People can naturally be mentally hard wired to identify as male or female. Sometimes the wiring and the equipment don't synch up during development. We have 40-plus years of neuroscience research basically telling us gender identity and body image are written early on in development, and sometimes they don't match.

People, however, do not naturally identify as a cat, or other non-human animal.

Myths About Gender Confirmation Surgery (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/myths-gender-confirmation-surgery_b_4384701.html?utm_hp_ref=transgender)
by Brynn Tannehill

A surgery can't make you a man or a woman either you are one or your not simple as that. Give a man SRS and he's still a male at his core. I really don't get this whole idea that SRS makes you a woman because really it doesn't and no surgeon can ever confirm who you are at your core. If you don't consider yourself a woman before the surgery you sure won't be one after the surgery. ;)

So, legally you can be a woman without SRS, depending on where you live.

Mentally, you can be female when you decide to be female.

Socially, it depends on other people's perceptions.

If you hit the trifecta, you are stealthy.

Hi,

This concerns myself and no one else,though it does refer to females  natal born and im part of that detail,

To be a woman . most females have the potential to become women it's there  and most of us do.

after we are born we will develop  likes and dislikes and we know what its like being female as we get older we grow in prep for woman hood and to have and carry our own children we bond with our baby and of cause feed and nurture our child , the key word is ...GROW.... into being a woman,

Now some of us for many different reasons can not bear children, im one of those, so am i thrown out and not accepted as a normal woman even though part of myself is female from birth,

we need to be carefull in what we say i did not just become a woman over night surgery has nothing at all to do with who we are  or meds drugs or HRT. im on those because im a menoprausal woman and i need them,

It has taken myself a few years to grow  as to becoming a woman as any normal female would .

Meds drugs or any other compound synthic or herbal meds can not make one a woman .

your body has to be inline with your own hormones as mine are to  effect changes that are both male and female like myself as being intersexed, my body did effect a few changes, and i know of others who this has happened in a more pronounced way,

Each person can say what they like about them self's or how they see themself''s its not up to me to say other wise, unless they are lieing .

Im a woman because i have grown into being one and my whole being has effected that, with out meds or drugs Now some of us do have surgerys iv had quite a few, to correct what was needed to be done, it did not change who i am,  my mind  and my thinking  has allways been female .

Im not a feminine female far from it more
=  eine hart arbeitende Frau, und eine m'a'nnliche seiht mit dem  gehen =.

a hard working woman and a more masculine  look to go with that,

Remember you have to grow ......Into being....... a woman and like those of us female's it takes time,

...noeleena...

Ok, so, let me get this right,

Your all women apart from the FTM's that may have posted. So, this marks gender. Woman for MTF and Man for FTM ?

Some are Female and others are Male in the plug and socket sense which marks sex. post op /pre op whatever.

All are male (MTF's) or female (FTM's) in a biological XY XX sense.


This is only three definitions. Along with all the other trans this, that and the other, no wonder the "normal" people get annoyed with us. We do not seem to be able to agree on what is what amongst ourselves.

I'm off to get inter-species reassignment surgery councelling. This is getting silly...

Im technically pre, but I count myself as a woman, the social security office has be marked as a female, my drivers liense says im female, my birth certificate because the others got changed got changed, so only in biology am I male.

Personally, I feel you can identify whatever way you want, but I won't feel complete until I fully transition (SRS included).  It's not needed for everyone, but it's an important part for me.  Still, I identify as female despite my current pre-op situation and think the same right should be granted to non-ops as well.  And I like to add that I laugh at those who invalidate the experiences of intersex people or those born with birth defects by saying you must have a or b.  It's ridiculous when you think about it because there are many people with birth defects that don't come out and advertise it.  Are they not their identified gender?  So why judge pre-ops and non-ops.

Lastly, don't get riled up when people try to invalidate your experience.  Some people are angry and put themselves in higher regard than others in order to protect their own fragile ego.  When it happens, it says a lot more about them than you.   

Quote from: Willow on December 20, 2013, 06:04:19 PM
It clearly depends on your perception of yourself. I'm pre-everything, and only dress part time, but I consider myself a woman.

Me too.

HECK... I even extend this to the past. I was ALWAYS a woman/girl. I was born with a female gender and male sex.

Evecrook seems to be feeding us with a least one metaphysical question per day, keeping all the deep thinkers here very busy... ;)

My own slant on this one is that I have mostly given up asking myself the question. I identify totally as a woman, I am identified by others as a woman, shortly I will also be  legally identified as a woman (including change to my birth certificate) and for almost all practical purposes, I don't really need to take it any further than that.

The "almost" in the previous statement nevertheless has its importance. I have already had extensive facial surgery which helped me greatly in being identified by others as a woman and it also helped me greatly in terms of self perception. For as long as I could see a man looking back at me in the mirror there was a serious disconnect between what I felt deep down inside me and what I was seeing.

For me, there is some of that with bottom surgery too but from a practical standpoint it is not nearly as important to me as the face , the mirror of the soul, with vastly more impact on how I interact with others than what I have between my legs.

I will never be an XX female but my present reality, without genital surgery, is that I am a woman, happily so as, for now I simply don't have the time to do SRS.

As it happens my whole approach to transitioning has been very emperical, based on practical experience. Since I had no doubt about my inner identity, being able to sucessfully exist socially as a woman was the driving idea behind everything I did and since I'm not into guys, SRS was not and is not top on the list of priorities.
My 2c's worth.

Donna

I was always a girl, that is how I always I felt about myself. Just because you are pre-hormones, surgery or don't even dress as how you identify does not in anyway discredit who you are and your identity. We are all the gender we define and view ourselves as. The reason why we dress as our desired gender, go through hormone therapy, surgery, voice training, etc is to bring our bodies in line with our internal gender. I'm just as much of that genderqueer lesbian girl now as I was last year and even the year before, I just am now more open to myself. Don't let what anyone says get you down!

I see SRS as a personal choice that has nothing to do with the determination of whether or not you are a woman. Seeing it as a necessary procedure to validate a person as a woman smacks of an arrogant, elitist, entitled, narrow "trannier than thou" attitude.

Not everyone who desires SRS is in a position to be able to have the procedure, and some people don't see it as a necessary component of their transition. Are these people any less of a woman? I don't think so.

By all means if it is important to you and you are in a position to be able to have it done - do it. But castigating people that haven't had it done shows a lack of understanding.

Re: so are you a woman with out the operation

For the purposes of this website, YES. Are there people out there (or even here) who disagree? Sure. But there are people out there who say you're not a woman even with the operation.

If you need an operation to be a woman, then you're not a woman.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 21, 2013, 08:26:51 AM
Lastly, don't get riled up when people try to invalidate your experience.  Some people are angry and put themselves in higher regard than others in order to protect their own fragile ego.  When it happens, it says a lot more about them than you.

I think it's more than likely these types were highly successful in their male lives and now they are seen as female and don't receive the same respect they carried in their former life. When I see someone bragging about their op status I kinda have to laugh because it really does show how much insecurities they have with their own transition. Now don't misunderstand me I'm not saying all post ops are this way actually it's far from it but I do know a few that do like to brag about their op status then But the majority I know will never say a thing about it and that's the way I plan to be after the surgery. I don't feel the need to brag to a bunch of people just beginning their journey that I'm better than them. ;)

Quote from: nikkit72 on December 21, 2013, 05:28:17 AM
I'm off to get inter-species reassignment surgery councelling.

Oh...so we can get that now?

Sweet!

Sign me up for that HtS op! (Human to Squirrel) :D :D :P

Quote from: Miss_Bungle1991 on December 21, 2013, 12:30:20 PM
Oh...so we can get that now?

Sweet!

Sign me up for that HtS op! (Human to Squirrel) :D :D :P

I'd consider it... rabbit for me, of course.

Maybe just the ears (lop) and tail ;)

Quote from: KabitTarah on December 21, 2013, 08:47:37 AM
Me too.

HECK... I even extend this to the past. I was ALWAYS a woman/girl. I was born with a female gender and male sex.

I do the same thing. Sometimes my family doesn't understand that. They think that just because I was in the closet (sort of...I was dropping hints left & right all through my childhood. I was always a girl and even when I tried to hide it from the few friends I had in those days, they all knew there was something about me that was a little different. My family always thought that I was always a guy and that was never the case.

Sign up for reverse electrolysis for those squirrel and rabbit coats!

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 21, 2013, 12:35:26 PM
Sign up for reverse electrolysis for those squirrel and rabbit coats!

:o WHAT?! No! You would still need the fur.

That's why she said reverse electrolysis.  As in putting fur on. Lol

Quote from: Orange Creamsicle on December 21, 2013, 12:53:29 PM
That's why she said reverse electrolysis.  As in putting fur on. Lol

:D Sorry. I misunderstood what she meant. That's is what happens when you have three windows open and music blaring.  :D In that case, maybe you could take a special medication that would help you grow fur. :P

With a normal density of ~10000 hairs per square inch... Ouch!! Reverse electrolysis would take forever.

Glad that's cleared up! I SAID GLAD THAT'S CLEARED UP, MISS BUNGLE!  ;D

This is a tough one for me. I do think I should have been born female, even from a very young age. For some reason though, I can't run around telling everyone I am a woman, I just present as one and hope for the best. Most times, I actually feel like I'm just a really weird, messed up person, hence all my insecurities. I don't project my own feelings about myself as a transsexual onto others though, so no one should feel slighted in any way.

Quote from: big head horsey-face on December 21, 2013, 01:04:42 PM
This is a tough one for me. I do think I should have been born female, even from a very young age. For some reason though, I can't run around telling everyone I am a woman, I just present as one and hope for the best. Most times, I actually feel like I'm just a really weird, messed up person, hence all my insecurities. I don't project my own feelings about myself as a transsexual onto others though, so no one should feel slighted in any way.

Well, I think a point comes for many after they've been transitioned for awhile, that they just don't care anymore. I really don't feel any need to proclaim I'm a man. I'm just me and as long as I'm passing and not misgendered, that's enough.

Quote from: FA on December 21, 2013, 01:13:56 PM
Well, I think a point comes for many after they've been transitioned for awhile, that they just don't care anymore. I really don't feel any need to proclaim I'm a man. I'm just me and as long as I'm passing and not misgendered, that's enough.

I've been fulltime for going on 8 years and been working with the public for the last three and I don't really think about it anymore other than here.

Quote from: big head horsey-face on December 21, 2013, 01:24:35 PM

Quote from: FA on December 21, 2013, 01:13:56 PM
Well, I think a point comes for many after they've been transitioned for awhile, that they just don't care anymore. I really don't feel any need to proclaim I'm a man. I'm just me and as long as I'm passing and not misgendered, that's enough.

I've been fulltime for going on 8 years and been working with the public for the last three and I don't really think about it anymore other than here.

Exactly.

With respect, I think the preoccupation and vehemence of declaring and going on about being a man or a woman etc is more for those early in transition. It's something new, and they're declaring their identity.  After the fact, it's just not a big deal anymore. After all, the only cis guys you hear going on about their manhood have insecurity issues. And you really don't hear cis women going on about it at all.  Any cis woman going on about her breast implants or vaginal cosmetic procedure and how womanly it makes her compared to others would look pretty pathetic).

I would just like to clarify something I said before.  Needing srs before feeling female or identifying as female is a bit different from desiring srs for a sense of peace or comfort.   I'm female in my heart regardless of my surgery status; however,  getting the surgery would make me feel more comfortable.   That's the crux of transitioning.   We feel something in our hearts and change our appearance to match our identity.  Srs is an extension of that for some and not for others.  Personally,  I'd imagine I'll feel incomplete without srs in the future,  but i totally respect those who don't want it and feel comfortable with their identity without taking that step.  In my case, I've always had major issues with my genitalia and would like to finally feel comfortable with it.  The same cab be said with my overall appearance which is why I choose to transition.   Either way, I'm still a female in my heart and soul, just as is any pre-op, post-op and non - op woman.  The physical changes are there to make you feel more comfortable and express yourself for who you are,  not to change your identity.   And overall  your indentity defines you, not how far you've come in the physical transition. Just my opinion.

Quote from: learningtolive on December 21, 2013, 01:43:42 PM
I would just like to clarify something I said before.  Needing srs before feeling female or identifying as female is a bit different from desiring srs for a sense of peace or comfort.   I'm female in my heart regardless of my surgery status; however,  getting the surgery would make me feel more comfortable.   That's the crux of transitioning.   We feel something in our hearts and change our appearance to match our identity.  Srs is an extension of that for some and not for others.  Personally,  I'd imagine I'll feel incomplete without srs in the future,  but i totally respect those who don't want it and feel comfortable with their identity without taking that step.  In my case, I've always had major issues with my genitalia and would like to finally feel comfortable with it.  The same cab be said with my overall appearance which is why I choose to transition.   Either way, I'm still a female in my heart and soul, just as is any pre-op, post-op and non - op woman.  The physical changes are there to make you feel more comfortable and express yourself for who you are,  not to change your identity.   And overall  your indentity defines you, not how far you've come in the physical transition. Just my opinion.

Just in case this is in response to my comments, I'm not saying those who need SRS are saying it makes them female. I'm talking more about some recent attitudes here regarding surgery and womanhood, etc.

To add on, I'll try to be t the point; surgery may help you perceive yourself more in your gender, but can never fully determine your gender. No one is going to check and see what you have in your pants, it's all about your brain, what you are expressing, and to a lesser extent, your style of dress and facial appearance, as that's what gives the first impression to others. They often won't key in on your body language as a determining factor in perceiving your gender, which is why most transpeople decide that they need hormones or surgery to change their face and body.
Once again, it's all a matter of your own perception, often influenced by other's perceptions. Hence why we have the term "passing." Do I feel like a woman? Sure. DO I look like a woman? Not really. Do I have the sexual organs of a woman? No. Do the last two impact the first one? TO me, they do a little, to others, it affects them a lot, others not at all. Some, only one affects them. If a surgery helps you feel more like you, go ahead. Some people need these before they feel like them, others just have them to feel more like them, and yet others don't need them at all.

Quote from: FA on December 21, 2013, 01:51:29 PM
Just in case this is in response to my comments, I'm not saying those who need SRS are saying it makes them female. I'm talking more about some recent attitudes here regarding surgery and womanhood, etc.

Oh, I know.  I suspect we are on the same page.

Quote from: FA on December 21, 2013, 01:13:56 PM
Well, I think a point comes for many after they've been transitioned for awhile, that they just don't care anymore. I really don't feel any need to proclaim I'm a man. I'm just me and as long as I'm passing and not misgendered, that's enough.

I have to say this is how I feel. At this time in my transition I just get a kick when some one genders me correctly with out hesitation. this older woman on the train gendered me properly and it's still making my day.

Kia Ora Eve,

Some people (including both cis and trans) feel that they are...Some people (including both cis and trans) feel that they are not...

And that just about wraps it all up...


Metta Zenda :)

I feel like a woman all the time

Well then, welcome to Susan's Place, woman! Hi Stephanie! Hugs, Devlyn

one word: yes

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on December 21, 2013, 08:04:55 PM
Well then, welcome to Susan's Place, woman! Hi Stephanie! Hugs, Devlyn

Hi, thanks

I still give Katies Keyboard Ninja jabs no importance

Quote from: monica93304 on December 21, 2013, 09:32:54 PM
I still give Katies Keyboard Ninja jabs no importance

You better worry about THIS Ninja! She's a fierce one!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi895.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac158%2Fnapalmdeathfan13591%2FPortiaKarate.jpg&hash=55c6bdcc1d0bd1b7c06f144cf75695d31fd5764d)

Quote from: Miss_Bungle1991 on December 21, 2013, 10:11:48 PM

Quote from: monica93304 on December 21, 2013, 09:32:54 PM
I still give Katies Keyboard Ninja jabs no importance

You better worry about THIS Ninja! She's a fierce one!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi895.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac158%2Fnapalmdeathfan13591%2FPortiaKarate.jpg&hash=55c6bdcc1d0bd1b7c06f144cf75695d31fd5764d)

uh... I understand everyone has their kinks, but that is just maniacal!

Quote from: FA on December 21, 2013, 10:32:14 PM
uh... I understand everyone has their kinks, but that is just maniacal!

:D :D

I see what you did there!

:D

Well, I'm new to this site and the idea of thrashing about different topics and ideas sounds great. I'd like to say that I've been a woman from day one. grade school ,high school college and beyond. In college my hair was down to my hips and I had a book bag that was basically a big purse. I lost a lot of girl friends because after a shot time in the relationship  they realized I really wasn't the man inside that I was out side. It hurt quite a long time not understanding why females always seem to treat me the same way after dating for awhile. One girl finally told me that I'd be better off female. It didn't sink in for a long time. Now I know why. I'm not a man.

Yes

Of course.

You're a woman, without any artificial assistance. A vagina doesn't make you a woman. Nor do breasts or makeup. I know many cis women, with all the correct parts that aren't women at all. I even dated one of them. Its that organ that nobody will ever see... Your heart. Ive known this for a long time. We've always been ladies, but too afraid to show it. Till now of course.

Quote from: FA on December 21, 2013, 12:14:01 PM
If you need an operation to be a woman, then you're not a woman.

I agree with this BUT I do want to point out one thing (and it only applies to my situation): I considered the orchi to be essential since I didn't want to be on a full HRT regimen for the rest of my life and GRS was a no-go.

All im saying if u want to get GRS, then do it. Do what makes you happy. But don't feel like its required for validation of your gender.

Quote from: LilLivvy91 on December 22, 2013, 11:51:29 PM
All im saying if u want to get GRS, then do it. Do what makes you happy. But don't feel like its required for validation of your gender.

Well said

If you amputate the penis to a man does he should be called "her" or "it"? Remember, there's cis men with a X, X karyotype. Legally recognized as men.

Women who has suffered from genital mutilation should be referred as "sir" or "it"? Remember, there's cis women with a X,Y karyotype. Legally recognized as women.

Then why non-op or pre-op trans people are not considered being a true woman or man?

If you study a person while they are engrossed in a task and they seem to be male, female or neither then you're probably correct despite what clothes, hairstyle or build they are.
This is why so many of us get outed by people who tell us we are just like women.
I've known many women including my mother and sister who say 'she's just like a bloke' about any butch woman including my cousin and my aunt but they don't equate butchness with FtMness.
There is a definite dividing line between effeminacy in men and butchness in women and transsexualism no matter how many people try to claim otherwise.
I've met very few genuine FtMs but an awful lot of lesbians and gay men who claim to be TS but aren't but then as I don't specifically go to any place that 'has a reputation for being a TG place' it doesn't directly concern me apart from my being interested in the whole subject of transsexualism.

Every one who knows a modicum about genuine gender identity knows that being a woman (or a man, for that matter) is solely about mind.  It is how you see yourself.  It is not how you look.  So YES you are a woman without the operation IF you consider yourself one.  If you identify as one. Simply.

In this thread, you can ask an Androgyne.  Am I a girl because I did have the operation?  Or do I remain a guy?  Am I a girl because I have boobs?  How about boobs, SRS, hair removal ... Other things?  Does all of that make me a woman?  Or was I always a woman living in a guy's role pre-op and then post-op?  Yes, it's all about personal perception.  When someone calls me ma'am when I'm dressed as a guy, I smile.  They are embarrassed, but I am not, because they were right!  Roberto.

Boddi, I agree for the most part. What people in here tend to leave out is: Gender is mental for all parties involved. You may think of yourself as one gender and others may think of you as another.

As bothersome as misgendering is, it is often quite innocent. If someone is convinced they see a man, they will gender that person as male, without asking/needing to see what is inside the pants.

If our internal gender is incongruous with our outward presentation, do not be surprised when you are misgendered. In fact, in many cases, the term misgendering is inaccurate. If gender is between the ears, and someone innocently uses the pronouns that reflect what they see, they have accurately gendered you from their perspective. Now, if they know better and still do it, it is misgendering.

Semantics are weird but if gender is mental for one party it has to be mental for all parties.

Quote from: evecrook on December 20, 2013, 06:00:14 PM
There seems to be a curious debate about how far you need to go to validate your woman hood...

I guess you have to frame your question in terms of personal and public perceptions. Your own validation would come first and last if you don't give a damn about what others think. If you seek public validation currently, I can't see how you could avoid making the necessary physical changes.

On the social side, it's how we perceive ourselves and how we choose to present ourselves.

On the biological side of the question, in how we perceive ourselves, most of this is in our heads, quite literally, but there are no easy or cheap tests for it, short of a post-mortem on the brain.

What is known about most MTFs is that they have brain structure differences from other males. The differences in brain structure almost always closely resemble the structures in females.

Back in the dark ages of gender identity diagnosis, a doctor at Johns Hopkins (whose name escapes me at the moment) stated that we are born as blank slates and we learn our gender roles so all that matters is how you raise a child. This was put to the test in the infamous "John/Joan" case, where a male with a badly botched circumcision was surgically altered to be a girl and raised as a girl. This, of course failed, and by the age of 14 the child was prepared to commit suicide. Attempts were made to help the child and later as an adult, but as I recall the individual in question ultimately took his own life in his 30s.

Dr. Milton Diamond never believed this theory so he eventually followed up on the "John/Joan" case and discovered that it did not work out the way the theory said it should. And, it turns out, it didn't work out in many other cases as well. Further, Dr. Diamond has stated (in interviews) that scientists have subsequently forced transsexual behavior on animal species by raising the testosterone levels on female fetuses in the womb (and vice versa on male fetuses). In every case, despite being biologically of one sex, these animals would adopt the behaviors of the other sex.

This has led to extensive studies that show that transgender people, going both ways, MTF and FTM, have significant brain structure differences from others of the same biological sex. Since our sense of self is within the brain, we quite literally have female brains in male bodies or male brains in female bodies.

Some of the recent hormonal research is summarized here, in this presentation to the AMA in 2011 (http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html). It's a long viewing, over an hour, but I highly recommend it.

Here is one image of just one brain region that is different in MTFs.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fmtf_brain_scan_differences.png&hash=35ea3da031287b12445053e69c8c0bbb60910a23)

The image above is the central nucleus of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), in the thalamus. Note that heterosexual and homosexual males have nearly identical brain structures in that region. Note that biological females have very different structures in that region from those of the males. And finally note that MTF transsexuals have brain structures that are very close to the female's and nothing at all like the biological male's neurological structures.

So no, you are not just "gay". :D  And yes, being transsexual is a real medical condition for which there is treatment that works for those who suffer most. That treatment is HRT and transitioning to live in the gender with which you identify.

Reference from my blog: Biological differences in MTFs and cisgender males (http://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/biological-differences-in-mtfs-and-cisgender-males/)

Yes, Liz, I am nit-picking a bit, but I felt compelled to comment on a couple of your points.

Quote from: LizMarie on December 27, 2013, 07:27:31 PM
Since our sense of self is within the brain, we quite literally have female brains in male bodies or male brains in female bodies.

If I have this right, Daniel C. Dennett claims that our sense of self is an illusion created by independently functioning areas of the brain. Er... I'm sure I had a point to make here, but it now escapes me. I'll get back to you on this.

QuoteThat treatment is HRT and transitioning to live in the gender with which you identify.

For what it's worth, I've been diagnosed as transsexual by two independent psychiatrists and one psychologist, who all specialised in gender. I have dressed since the age of 7. I have been on HRT for prolonged periods and loved it each time. I am basically a classic case. However, while I do like and prefer spending a lot of time socialising with women, I do not identify with them. For various reasons, I am also going to continue to present as a man.

Given all this, do I consider myself a woman? Well, I don't know -- it's complicated.

Hmm.... well, I suppose that all depends on what you mean.

If you're talking about my personal perspective and stance, then yeah, I'm a woman. I get treated like one and act as one without discomfort as opposed to acting like a man (in any context or manner) where I experienced vast amounts of mental turmoil and distress. I tend to be very naturally accepted by society at large as a woman and I'm pretty darned pleased about it as it fits like a proverbial glove. I have, more or less, completely integrated myself into society as a woman and have no problem calling myself a woman.

Does that mean that I'm the exact same as a GG who went through socialization as a girl from day one, did the whole 'life as a teenage girl' thing, had to deal with the arrival of my period and then got to experience the joys (sarcasm) and pains (not) of life as a newly minted woman? Um. No. I can sympathize and identify with those experiences in some ways but there are others in which I will never and can never know in the same way that I don't know what it's like to be a black transwoman, a trans-dude of any sort, a cisgender person of any sort or whatever but just because I am not exactly like a GG doesn't mean that I'm not a woman, operative status or not.

So, as to those who say that the only point of transition is to get a hoo-ha (or, y'know, that one particular person who repeatedly says so), I respectfully request that you STFU. If you *must* have surgery to validate your own womanhood, go for it. If that's the only bar that you have to measure against in which you'd be able to call yourself a woman, then, I'm sincerely sorry for you because, really, if you can't and haven't gotten/accepted that gender != genital sex then I have nothing for your ignorance but to feel sorry for you that your identity is so firmly wound up in your junk.*

I totally want to get my SRS done because... umm... yay penises and cunilingus and all the other wonderful aspects of being able to have sex. Does this mean that I'm somehow *not* a woman before I have said surgery? No. It simply means that I'm a woman who can't have sex but can still pee standing up (if I want to make myself puke).

* If I wanna get a little snarky that's very much a manly trait... to wrap your identity up in your privates. I mean, I don't know any women (I asked my partner and various of my girlfriends based on this post) who think "yeah, my hoo-ha is totally the summation of my womanhood!" but I know that almost every man I've met defines his existence by his thingy and it's relative size to the average. :-D

Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on December 27, 2013, 08:38:51 PM
Hmm.... well, I suppose that all depends on what you mean.

If you're talking about my personal perspective and stance, then yeah, I'm a woman. I get treated like one and act as one without discomfort as opposed to acting like a man (in any context or manner) where I experienced vast amounts of mental turmoil and distress. I tend to be very naturally accepted by society at large as a woman and I'm pretty darned pleased about it as it fits like a proverbial glove. I have, more or less, completely integrated myself into society as a woman and have no problem calling myself a woman.

Does that mean that I'm the exact same as a GG who went through socialization as a girl from day one, did the whole 'life as a teenage girl' thing, had to deal with the arrival of my period and then got to experience the joys (sarcasm) and pains (not) of life as a newly minted woman? Um. No. I can sympathize and identify with those experiences in some ways but there are others in which I will never and can never know in the same way that I don't know what it's like to be a black transwoman, a trans-dude of any sort, a cisgender person of any sort or whatever but just because I am not exactly like a GG doesn't mean that I'm not a woman, operative status or not.

So, as to those who say that the only point of transition is to get a hoo-ha (or, y'know, that one particular person who repeatedly says so), I respectfully request that you STFU. If you *must* have surgery to validate your own womanhood, go for it. If that's the only bar that you have to measure against in which you'd be able to call yourself a woman, then, I'm sincerely sorry for you because, really, if you can't and haven't gotten/accepted that gender != genital sex then I have nothing for your ignorance but to feel sorry for you that your identity is so firmly wound up in your junk.*

I totally want to get my SRS done because... umm... yay penises and cunilingus and all the other wonderful aspects of being able to have sex. Does this mean that I'm somehow *not* a woman before I have said surgery? No. It simply means that I'm a woman who can't have sex but can still pee standing up (if I want to make myself puke).

* If I wanna get a little snarky that's very much a manly trait... to wrap your identity up in your privates. I mean, I don't know any women (I asked my partner and various of my girlfriends based on this post) who think "yeah, my hoo-ha is totally the summation of my womanhood!" but I know that almost every man I've met defines his existence by his thingy and it's relative size to the average. :-D

Yay!!!! Couldn't of worded it better!!

I would absolutely agree with the thinking of men. I would add that from my experience most men base any type of emotional connection on sex. Not just intimacy but straight out F*****G.

They can be 110% attracted to you physically and emotionally but if you can't do the act all that is forgotten!!

You could tell them the very first time you meet that you have something other women don't have.....but then they want nothing to do with you.

I will stop right here! I did write more but deleted it. I have recently had a very bad experience finding out what men really do want....and if you can't provide it...they definitely don't want you anymore!!

I wish as all hell my attraction was still to women....cause men are not too attractive at the moment!

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 27, 2013, 09:40:40 PM
Yay!!!! Couldn't of worded it better!!

Uhhhh... thanks for the vote of confidence but I think you missed the point of my reply.  ::)

To your points, not all men want things the way that you're talking about but if you can't share physical intimacy with someone, perhaps looking for a romantic engagement is something that you should put off until you can feel more comfortable with experimenting with what you've got or, barring that, waiting until post-op so that you can have a 'normal' relationship.

I hate to be blunt but, if you want guys, they're going to want sex unless they're seriously abnormal. It's not always a bad thing but it's like looking for a very tiny needle in a hay stack the size of Texas if you want a well adjusted man who doesn't want sex in a relationship.

(This message has been approved by my pansexual GG partner as a pretty good representation of Cis Guys)

Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on December 27, 2013, 11:14:05 PM
Uhhhh... thanks for the vote of confidence but I think you missed the point of my reply.  ::)

To your points, not all men want things the way that you're talking about but if you can't share physical intimacy with someone, perhaps looking for a romantic engagement is something that you should put off until you can feel more comfortable with experimenting with what you've got or, barring that, waiting until post-op so that you can have a 'normal' relationship.

I hate to be blunt but, if you want guys, they're going to want sex unless they're seriously abnormal. It's not always a bad thing but it's like looking for a very tiny needle in a hay stack the size of Texas if you want a well adjusted man who doesn't want sex in a relationship.

(This message has been approved by my pansexual GG partner as a pretty good representation of Cis Guys)

Uhhh....ok!!

I'll have to remember this when my son is old enough to think he can have sex...which is now.

Son...just remember make sure you inform her that sex is required to continue dating!!

Ya this is a 15-18 year old....but what is the difference between a 19-28 year old???....or even older

I am sorry but I think there is somebody out there that doesn't place sex as the number one priority to continue a relationship....will it eventually have to happen....well yes probably. But who is to say how long....and I for one wish I was postop yesterday!!

and you know I have been putting off having any type of relationship for over 8 years....and since my transition I have now only accepted a tiny fraction of advances I may have received.

I guess I will  now ignore all possible friendship potentials with men....or at least tell them....well I'm not a real women!!!

Thank you!! I'll go crawl back in my hole I have been in for the last eight years!! or if you could provide me with the book on transitioning that would be even more helpful. I have no idea WTF I am doing.....I never thought I would want to be social again in my life....I am just trying.

UGH!! I think I will just get the f*** away from this site AGAIN.....it's not support!!!

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 28, 2013, 12:26:29 PM

UGH!! I think I will just get the f*** away from this site AGAIN.....it's not support!!!

I wouldn't go that far...

I don't think Victoria's saying all men are like that. But most adult men are. In fact, so are most adult women who are not virgins. Sex is just expected in most adult relationships. That doesn't mean it's the number one priority for most people. Most adult men and women can get laid outside of a relationship. But physical intimacy is a vital factor in relationships for most people. Sooner or later it's going to be expected by most. I don't see anything offensive about Victoria pointing that out.

Oooookay, I'm going to address this point by point simply because you're obviously having a hard time and you've taken a lot of what I said out of context.

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 28, 2013, 12:26:29 PM
I guess I will  now ignore all possible friendship potentials with men....or at least tell them....well I'm not a real women!!!

I never said that you aren't a real woman. I'm implying that a normal/healthy romantic relationship with a member of the opposite sex, especially in this day and age tends to imply a sexual component. Sex is fun. Orgasms are great and there are plenty of things that you can do pre-op if you're ready for that experience. If not, you can certainly try but I wouldn't hold my breath for a lot of success. I'm here to support you (and really, given that I've successfully transitioned and have no real issues, that's the only reason I'm here) but I'm not here to blow smoke up your tush. You may be able to have what you want but it won't be easy to find and it'll be harder to find a guy that you don't have to compromise on who is totally cool with that limitation.

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 28, 2013, 12:26:29 PM
Ya this is a 15-18 year old....but what is the difference between a 19-28 year old???....or even older

There are quite a few differences between a romantic relationship as a teenager and such a relationship as an adult.

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 28, 2013, 12:26:29 PM
I am sorry but I think there is somebody out there that doesn't place sex as the number one priority to continue a relationship....

I doubt that many people place sex as the #1 priority but, if someone is interested in another person romantically, a good part of that is desire for that person sexually or there wouldn't be attraction in the first place. Franky, I'd hate to be with a guy who could completely suppress those urges because then the attraction would be more platonic and probably have less meaning. This is my opinion but, after having been with a number of guys, I'm pretty strong-minded about it.

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 28, 2013, 12:26:29 PM
and you know I have been putting off having any type of relationship for over 8 years....and since my transition I have now only accepted a tiny fraction of advances I may have received.

That's great! I'm glad that you're doing so. If you don't want to open up the possibility of sexual relationships, simply dating and then moving on when it's getting to that point is completely valid. You might even find someone by sifting through all the opportunities that you feel comfortable enough to move forward with regardless of operative status.

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 28, 2013, 12:26:29 PM
will it eventually have to happen....well yes probably. But who is to say how long....and I for one wish I was postop yesterday!!

This seems to be the most telling part of your response. I can feel your frustration with your situation and I can't speak to all the parts of it but a lot of it seems to be wound up in your belief that you couldn't do things pre-op. If you can't for reasons of your own, that's fine but if that's the case, I'd recommend making surgery a priority because your attitudes towards sex don't seem to be that you don't want it but more that you're afraid of it, unless I miss my mark.

Quote from: Just Shelly on December 28, 2013, 12:26:29 PM
Thank you!! I'll go crawl back in my hole I have been in for the last eight years!! or if you could provide me with the book on transitioning that would be even more helpful. I have no idea WTF I am doing.....I never thought I would want to be social again in my life....I am just trying.

UGH!! I think I will just get the f*** away from this site AGAIN.....it's not support!!!

You're obviously very afraid and I feel for you, I honestly do but I'm going to speak from my experience and my beliefs about how the world of relationships work. It's a lot more nuanced than what we've briefly covered here but if what you're looking for is a cheer leading squad who will tell you that the world will work in the very specific way that you're looking for, I don't think that's support though local TS support groups tend to be more in line with this kind of thinking, I don't think that it would be helpful to set up an expectation that isn't in line with the reality that I have observed in my life.

Being that you're very upset, I'll leave this here but I want you to know, if you read this, that I do support you and want you to be happy and will be happy to talk this out with you either here or in PM. It's not as bleak as you think.

Quote from: FA on December 28, 2013, 12:37:55 PM
... but most adult men are. In fact, so are most adult women who are not virgins. Sex is just expected in most adult relationships. That doesn't mean it's the number one priority for most people. Most adult men and women can get laid outside of a relationship. But physical intimacy is a vital factor in relationships for most people. Sooner or later it's going to be expected by most.

Boom. This. Romantic relationships that want to go somewhere want physical intimacy. Physical intimacy is a wonderful and very important part of a romantic relationship and any such thing that lacks it is very incomplete and, to my opinion, not completely honest.

Quote from: Victoria Mitchell on December 28, 2013, 12:50:02 PM
(and really, given that I've successfully transitioned and have no real issues, that's the only reason I'm here).

and how is that.....

were you just upfront with anyone you met....told them right at the first meeting you were trans!! whether man or women and had no issues. Wow remarkable!

I think this is great to hear!!

So lets say just for example a guy (or girl) you have known for 4-6 months has begun to become attracted to you....they do not know of your past....because their was no reason for this!! So now you either tell them about your past or tell them your not interested!

ok lesson learned! Thank you so much my transition is now successful.

You know if you really knew me....I consider myself a very honest person and at first I thought I would live my life as just another trans women....but when I was accepted as nothing more than a women why should I have to tell people...."well...I'm really not a woman, I'm trans" ....and because I am an honest person I at first thought I was deceiving everyone I met...I then thought.... do women or men actually have to tell people they are women or men???  I take it either this is what you have done to be "successful" or you have just kept your mouth shut!

Not sure what the secret to your success is....but apparently it isn't anything like mine!

Short answer: I'm a woman. I'm just trans and I don't have issues sharing that fact about my life. It's not a 'history' thing or a 'secret'. It's a medical condition that many, many people understand fully and those who don't can go do something vulgar with themselves. At most I get a 'Oh wow, I'd have never have guessed.' and then life resumes its normal pace and no one treats me like anything other than a normal chick. Seriously. No one gives a care in the world about it.

If you want to do the quasi-stealth thing, that's totally cool but you'll have to find someone else to give advice about it as I really don't have any experience in breaking the news to a romantic interest who has known you for quite a while but doesn't know about the trans thing.

Frankly, if you think that being trans makes you 'not a real woman' then you have some work to do on yourself before you want to move into relationships. The basis of your freak-outs on me seems to come from this place and, frankly, while I understand it on one level, you're going to have to face the music one of these days. You are *not* a normal woman. I wish that I were but I'm not. Neither are you. We don't have fully normative VJs even after the operation (which gives us an approximation at best), we don't get wombs, we have some anatomy weirdness, etc etc etc. That DOESN'T make us 'not real women' but it does make us women who have unique challenges and histories that aren't exactly the 'girl next door' kinda story.

I'm not 'loud and proud' about being trans. Frankly it's the same kind of thing to me as having red hair. It just is what it is and I've accepted it, made a slightly annoyed and little petulant peace with it, and moved on to live the rest of my life as authentically as I can with the full weight of who (me) and what (a pre-operative transsexual woman, a computer scientist, a partner, a lover, an artist and musician, a rollergirl, etc.) I am behind me. I'm not ashamed of anything and I'm not afraid of it either and I'm determined to make the best of every second I have on this rock because, as an atheist, I'm pretty sure that I only get one ride that works like this so wasting time worrying about things that really don't matter in the long run is a horrible betrayal of the gift of life as a human that I have.

I need some space on this so I won't respond for a while. Your energy is very difficult to process and your responses have been universally defensive and aggressive. I hope that you figure out what you need to do and how you need to do it though because you sound pretty miserable and that's a pretty terrible way to live life.

I'm a " pre-opt transitioning transgender" woman I've been a woman from the time of birth, I've been told by my wonderful therapist that I'm hard wired that way, I accept that reasoning and am very happy with it  .I happen to be bi. Not in a relationship right now but would love to be in one. I will have an operation when able. I take it day by day. If I meet some one great. Right now I'm just thrilled to be doing HRT. I'm probably at the most peaceful place I've ever been at by transitioning. I feel when the right person comes along it will happen.

This has been a very interesting thread providing lots of food for thought. So, following an exchange I had with Cindy yesterday which, among others,  allowed me to learn a new term I was unfamiliar with "GCS = Gender Confirmation Surgery " , I thought it was worth while to come back to the subject briefly.

I thought quite a bit about that term since yesterday, notably during a long walk in a forest this morning during one of the rare bright and sunny spells we've had over the last few days...I find brisk walking very therapeutic, strenuous enough to keep you in excellent shape yet calm enough to let the mind wander nicely from thought to thought.

Anyway, this latest variant on GRS, SRS etc...ie "the operation",  was a bit baffling for me as even before this thread I had difficulty understanding what "the operation" had to do with gender identity.  I'd put this difficulty at the same level as the difficulty I have understanding what someone learns from a RLE when they are obliged to present as a "man in a dress" from beginning to end as still practised in some supposedly civilized countries.

Getting back to "the operation" (BTW, in many ways FFS is just as radical as bottom surgery but somehow isn't at all perceived in the same manner which reinforces Victoria's excellent point about the instrinsic phallocentricity behind the emphasis placed on the latter), wouldn't the most accurate term finally just be GRS = Genital Reassignment Surgery? 

While I can easily imagine how it can help someone feel more comfortable with their bodies, end of the day, I don't see how it is intrinsically any different in spirit to FFS (Facial Feminization Surgery) which is also just an enabler ie. having a more feminine face makes it easier for me to live as a woman, just as having a vagina would no doubt make it easier too once I actually had the surgery under my belt.

The difference in perception that comes through with all the fuss about "the operation"  is no doubt a consequence of the obsession with sex that is part and parcel of western society but  this thread had the merit in clarifying some of the fundamental questions that motivate such surgery. Being a prerequisite for "being a woman" doesn't seem to be one of them.

Hugs
Donna

P.S. In spite of the wandering thoughts expressed in this post, I am actually home from the walk and typing from the comfort of my desk... :)

I think I agree a lot with Victoria on things.

For me, if God had intended our physical sex to be the end-all of our gender too, then he'd have made us all giant walking penises and vaginas.  ;)

Quote from: MiaOhMya! on December 29, 2013, 03:19:12 PM
...giant walking penises and vaginas.  ;)

Evolution is an ongoing process, so this may yet happen.

Quote from: LizMarie on December 27, 2013, 07:27:31 PM
On the social side, it's how we perceive ourselves and how we choose to present ourselves.

On the biological side of the question, in how we perceive ourselves, most of this is in our heads, quite literally, but there are no easy or cheap tests for it, short of a post-mortem on the brain.

What is known about most MTFs is that they have brain structure differences from other males. The differences in brain structure almost always closely resemble the structures in females.

Back in the dark ages of gender identity diagnosis, a doctor at Johns Hopkins (whose name escapes me at the moment) stated that we are born as blank slates and we learn our gender roles so all that matters is how you raise a child. This was put to the test in the infamous "John/Joan" case, where a male with a badly botched circumcision was surgically altered to be a girl and raised as a girl. This, of course failed, and by the age of 14 the child was prepared to commit suicide. Attempts were made to help the child and later as an adult, but as I recall the individual in question ultimately took his own life in his 30s.

Dr. Milton Diamond never believed this theory so he eventually followed up on the "John/Joan" case and discovered that it did not work out the way the theory said it should. And, it turns out, it didn't work out in many other cases as well. Further, Dr. Diamond has stated (in interviews) that scientists have subsequently forced transsexual behavior on animal species by raising the testosterone levels on female fetuses in the womb (and vice versa on male fetuses). In every case, despite being biologically of one sex, these animals would adopt the behaviors of the other sex.

This has led to extensive studies that show that transgender people, going both ways, MTF and FTM, have significant brain structure differences from others of the same biological sex. Since our sense of self is within the brain, we quite literally have female brains in male bodies or male brains in female bodies.

Some of the recent hormonal research is summarized here, in this presentation to the AMA in 2011 (http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html). It's a long viewing, over an hour, but I highly recommend it.

Here is one image of just one brain region that is different in MTFs.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fmtf_brain_scan_differences.png&hash=35ea3da031287b12445053e69c8c0bbb60910a23)

The image above is the central nucleus of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), in the thalamus. Note that heterosexual and homosexual males have nearly identical brain structures in that region. Note that biological females have very different structures in that region from those of the males. And finally note that MTF transsexuals have brain structures that are very close to the female's and nothing at all like the biological male's neurological structures.

So no, you are not just "gay". :D  And yes, being transsexual is a real medical condition for which there is treatment that works for those who suffer most. That treatment is HRT and transitioning to live in the gender with which you identify.

Reference from my blog: Biological differences in MTFs and cisgender males (http://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/biological-differences-in-mtfs-and-cisgender-males/)

This makes my life make a lot more sense

Legally speaking, I will be considered a woman in the moment I get SRS or two years HRT and full time...

Personally, after my current experience I can consider myself already. What's left is a hack and slash that will improve my social life and functioning, but that makes me a woman as much as putting a skirt.

I can answer this question easily without any drama: yes, I'm a girl! ;)

Hugs,
Allyda

Quote from: LizMarie on December 27, 2013, 07:27:31 PM
On the social side, it's how we perceive ourselves and how we choose to present ourselves.

On the biological side of the question, in how we perceive ourselves, most of this is in our heads, quite literally, but there are no easy or cheap tests for it, short of a post-mortem on the brain.

What is known about most MTFs is that they have brain structure differences from other males. The differences in brain structure almost always closely resemble the structures in females.

Back in the dark ages of gender identity diagnosis, a doctor at Johns Hopkins (whose name escapes me at the moment) stated that we are born as blank slates and we learn our gender roles so all that matters is how you raise a child. This was put to the test in the infamous "John/Joan" case, where a male with a badly botched circumcision was surgically altered to be a girl and raised as a girl. This, of course failed, and by the age of 14 the child was prepared to commit suicide. Attempts were made to help the child and later as an adult, but as I recall the individual in question ultimately took his own life in his 30s.

Dr. Milton Diamond never believed this theory so he eventually followed up on the "John/Joan" case and discovered that it did not work out the way the theory said it should. And, it turns out, it didn't work out in many other cases as well. Further, Dr. Diamond has stated (in interviews) that scientists have subsequently forced transsexual behavior on animal species by raising the testosterone levels on female fetuses in the womb (and vice versa on male fetuses). In every case, despite being biologically of one sex, these animals would adopt the behaviors of the other sex.

This has led to extensive studies that show that transgender people, going both ways, MTF and FTM, have significant brain structure differences from others of the same biological sex. Since our sense of self is within the brain, we quite literally have female brains in male bodies or male brains in female bodies.

Some of the recent hormonal research is summarized here, in this presentation to the AMA in 2011 (http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html). It's a long viewing, over an hour, but I highly recommend it.

Here is one image of just one brain region that is different in MTFs.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fmtf_brain_scan_differences.png&hash=35ea3da031287b12445053e69c8c0bbb60910a23)

The image above is the central nucleus of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), in the thalamus. Note that heterosexual and homosexual males have nearly identical brain structures in that region. Note that biological females have very different structures in that region from those of the males. And finally note that MTF transsexuals have brain structures that are very close to the female's and nothing at all like the biological male's neurological structures.

So no, you are not just "gay". :D  And yes, being transsexual is a real medical condition for which there is treatment that works for those who suffer most. That treatment is HRT and transitioning to live in the gender with which you identify.

Reference from my blog: Biological differences in MTFs and cisgender males (http://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/biological-differences-in-mtfs-and-cisgender-males/)

As to this, I've always suspected it.

Quote from: LizMarie on December 27, 2013, 07:27:31 PM
On the social side, it's how we perceive ourselves and how we choose to present ourselves.

On the biological side of the question, in how we perceive ourselves, most of this is in our heads, quite literally, but there are no easy or cheap tests for it, short of a post-mortem on the brain.

What is known about most MTFs is that they have brain structure differences from other males. The differences in brain structure almost always closely resemble the structures in females.

Back in the dark ages of gender identity diagnosis, a doctor at Johns Hopkins (whose name escapes me at the moment) stated that we are born as blank slates and we learn our gender roles so all that matters is how you raise a child. This was put to the test in the infamous "John/Joan" case, where a male with a badly botched circumcision was surgically altered to be a girl and raised as a girl. This, of course failed, and by the age of 14 the child was prepared to commit suicide. Attempts were made to help the child and later as an adult, but as I recall the individual in question ultimately took his own life in his 30s.

Dr. Milton Diamond never believed this theory so he eventually followed up on the "John/Joan" case and discovered that it did not work out the way the theory said it should. And, it turns out, it didn't work out in many other cases as well. Further, Dr. Diamond has stated (in interviews) that scientists have subsequently forced transsexual behavior on animal species by raising the testosterone levels on female fetuses in the womb (and vice versa on male fetuses). In every case, despite being biologically of one sex, these animals would adopt the behaviors of the other sex.

This has led to extensive studies that show that transgender people, going both ways, MTF and FTM, have significant brain structure differences from others of the same biological sex. Since our sense of self is within the brain, we quite literally have female brains in male bodies or male brains in female bodies.

Some of the recent hormonal research is summarized here, in this presentation to the AMA in 2011 (http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html). It's a long viewing, over an hour, but I highly recommend it.

Here is one image of just one brain region that is different in MTFs.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fmtf_brain_scan_differences.png&hash=35ea3da031287b12445053e69c8c0bbb60910a23)

The image above is the central nucleus of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), in the thalamus. Note that heterosexual and homosexual males have nearly identical brain structures in that region. Note that biological females have very different structures in that region from those of the males. And finally note that MTF transsexuals have brain structures that are very close to the female's and nothing at all like the biological male's neurological structures.

So no, you are not just "gay". :D  And yes, being transsexual is a real medical condition for which there is treatment that works for those who suffer most. That treatment is HRT and transitioning to live in the gender with which you identify.

Reference from my blog: Biological differences in MTFs and cisgender males (http://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/biological-differences-in-mtfs-and-cisgender-males/)

I think basically this is saying your genetically a female with some defects which can be mostly fixed . I know from my childhood and beyond this is so obviously true. I don't think there are any other possible explanations for what I've gone through since birth. I been tormented by my brain trying to conform to its reality . I know now that I have breasts I feel so much more aligned to my true nature. The exact  same feeling for every slight change I feel and see happening with my body. It's a physical realignment  to what your genetic make up is.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 14, 2014, 04:22:01 PM
I think basically this is saying your genetically a female with some defects which can be mostly fixed . I know from my childhood and beyond this is so obviously true. I don't think there are any other possible explanations for what I've gone through since birth. I been tormented by my brain trying to conform to its reality . I know now that I have breasts I feel so much more aligned to my true nature. The exact  same feeling for every slight change I feel and see happening with my body. It's a physical realignment  to what your genetic make up is.

I loved the way you put that Stephanie: "It's a physical realignment to what your genetic makeup is." Also I watched the video presentation and I found it very enlightning especially the comparisons of MTF brains to cis female brains. While I haven't been on hrt long enough yet to see any real big changes -I know it takes time, but the video made me even more excited for those changes to come. Also I'm glad the AMA is trying to do something about coverage for our necessary surgeries. I thank you for your post. It has made me feel, well, more like a normal woman. ;)

Quote from: Allyda on January 14, 2014, 06:00:39 PM
I loved the way you put that Stephanie: "It's a physical realignment to what your genetic makeup is." Also I watched the video presentation and I found it very enlightning especially the comparisons of MTF brains to cis female brains. While I haven't been on hrt long enough yet to see any real big changes -I know it takes time, but the video made me even more excited for those changes to come. Also I'm glad the AMA is trying to do something about coverage for our necessary surgeries. I thank you for your post. It has made me feel, well, more like a normal woman. ;)

Yea it definitely has done that for me too.All that stress I dealt with between the mental and physical maybe that's why.

Quote from: FA on December 21, 2013, 12:14:01 PM

If you need an operation to be a woman, then you're not a woman.

I like it. It's opening a can of worms, but I like it. Have you ever read "What Is It Like To Be A Bat?" by Thomas Nagel?

Quote from: stephaniec on January 14, 2014, 07:31:45 PM
Yea it definitely has done that for me too.All that stress I dealt with between the mental and physical maybe that's why.

Mee too, me too. ;)

Quote from: JS on January 14, 2014, 09:24:27 PM

I like it. It's opening a can of worms, but I like it. Have you ever read "What Is It Like To Be A Bat?" by Thomas Nagel?

No, never heard of that one.

Hey y'all, I took a crappy cell phone pic tonight of nme all natural in the mirror. I'll post it in the appropriate section once I upload it to my computer. This way you'll have some idea of who your talking to, lol!! :D ;)

Quote from: Allyda on January 14, 2014, 09:34:05 PM
No, never heard of that one.

Hey y'all, I took a crappy cell phone pic tonight of nme all natural in the mirror. I'll post it in the appropriate section once I upload it to my computer. This way you'll have some idea of who your talking to, lol!! :D ;)

???

Quote from: JS on January 14, 2014, 10:57:59 PM
???

I meant I never heard of "What Is It Like To Be a Bat."

Quote from: Allyda on January 14, 2014, 11:30:00 PM
I meant I never heard of "What Is It Like To Be a Bat."

OK, thanks, FA.

Quote from: JS on January 15, 2014, 03:57:46 AM

OK, thanks, FA.

the article in pdf online. half way through it it's about a bat. Or the consciousness of an electron circling a proton or some thing, not sure.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 15, 2014, 01:34:30 PM
the article in pdf online. half way through it it's about a bat. Or the consciousness of an electron circling a proton or some thing, not sure.

In a nutshell, Nagel attempts to refute the reductionist approach to consciousness, claiming that it is something more than the sum of its parts. It's a subtle and complex argument. I don't agree with it, but it does initiate discussion about such things as qualia and whether it's possible for us to experience another person's subjective experiences. So, when I say that I feel female, what is it that I'm actually claiming and is it possible? 

Quote from: JS on January 15, 2014, 02:21:42 PM
In a nutshell, Nagel attempts to refute the reductionist approach to consciousness, claiming that it is something more than the sum of its parts. It's a subtle and complex argument. I don't agree with it, but it does initiate discussion about such things as qualia and whether it's possible for us to experience another person's subjective experiences. So, when I say that I feel female, what is it that I'm actually claiming and is it possible?

I don't know, is pure conscious dual in nature or is it pure unity where it is irrelevant  to argue a male female perspective.

I don't just "feel" female I know I'm female. ;) If I can find it I'll check it out though. Some of these insights are interesting whether I beleive them or not. :)

I'm scheduled for SRS/GCS surgery in early March.  I'm very excited about it.  But I am neither getting the surgery to "reassign" me as a woman nor to "confirm" that I am a woman.   I am a woman already.

Some cis-women, faced with radical mastectomies, experience a similar heartache:  will I still feel like a woman without my breasts?  Of course, they are still women!

But whether they FEEL that way is a very personal decision.  Many consider reconstructive surgery a high priority.  Others don't.  Bravo to both groups!

I think that this is an intensely personal decision.  Whatever outcome makes you feel happiest about yourself as a person is the right one!  Either way, you're a woman.  Whatever you end up with, enjoy!

Its all just names. Call it vaginaplasty. My friend had a mastectomy. Made her miserable and self conscious. So she had implants done and she felt a lot better. Other women wear forms and some just dont care. No difference, how you feel about certain parts of your body is intensely personal.

I used to care about why I feel the way I do. But at some point it just stopped being interesting. Im just me and thats how it is.

my brain has always told me I'm female so I just go with my brain, I can't live with out a brain, so its got my vote

Adding another two cents into here... IMO, if you don't feel like a woman without the operation, you're probably not going to feel like one with it either.

I'm more concerned about the legal side....
I could live with or without SRS (as long as I can start HRT)... but if I need SRS to get my 'F' on my ID.. then that's what I'll do.

I am happy to say, where I live, no surgery is required to get a new birth certificate and all new ID. None, which is how it should be.

Sometimes people will ask, how much do you think I need to do? My answer is always the same. Do the least possible to give yourself personal peace of mind. Driving surgery by requiring it to change gender markers on ID is like forced sterilization. It is evil.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 15, 2014, 06:38:02 PM
Adding another two cents into here... IMO, if you don't feel like a woman without the operation, you're probably not going to feel like one with it either.

But doesn't that beg the question of why someone who doesn't feel female would want go ahead with GRS -- what would be their motivation?

Quote from: JS on January 15, 2014, 06:57:15 PM

But doesn't that beg the question of why someone who doesn't feel female would want go ahead with GRS -- what would be their motivation?

Ever heard of the male-identified porn star who had a penile inversion done?

He's a bit of an extreme example, but that's basically what I was saying, is that what's between your legs doesn't define who you are. Having a vaginoplasty doesn't magically make you a woman.

I think I'm starting to like the term GRS "gender-reaffirming surgery," over SRS, "sex reassignment surgery." It's something that you do if you feel that it's necessary to satisfy your sense of selfhood.



(edited, since someone mentioned that a certain term wasn't appropriate for this site.)

Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 15, 2014, 07:05:53 PM
Ever heard of the mangina man?

He's a bit of an extreme example, but that's basically what I was saying, is that what's between your legs doesn't define who you are. Having a vaginoplasty doesn't magically make you a woman.

But it seems that Mangina man never had the intention of using surgery to become a woman, so I feel that it doesn't really fit the context of this exchange.

Sorry... I'm just on a rush of "accept yourself for who you are" right now. :P I was admittedly one of the ones who was feeling super-dysphoric because I was looking at surgery as this magical future thing that would be the end-all, the end goal. And now that I've moved past that 2-month panicky super-dysphoric bout, realizing that it was just a matter of self-acceptance all along, I wanted to be a soapbox preacher and proclaim it to the world.

Quote from: Carrie Liz on January 15, 2014, 07:15:08 PM
Sorry... I'm just on a rush of "accept yourself for who you are" right now. :P

And rightly so!

Just be happy. Its generally better to wait at least 3 years before doing any surgery (after starting HRT). But it is personal.

Quote from: JS on January 15, 2014, 07:14:08 PM
But it seems that Mangina man never had the intention of using surgery to become a woman, so I feel that it doesn't really fit the context of this exchange.

Agreed, and it was on another post where a moderator chimed in stating that term is inappropriate for this site. Though I know no harm was intended by it's mention, I just remember how the other thread turned out.

As far as surgeries as I have stated before, I plan to give the hormones at the least 2 years maybe more to do their thing before considering any surgery with one exception, SRS, or GRS, whichever term you prefer, only because I feel I'll need it to bring my body in line with my gender, and for my own well being. However the choice to have any surgery lies within the individual and her needs. I'm repulsed by what's down below now for I know it's wrong for me and my well being. However other MTF individuals may feel different about it and that's their choice which I respect. As many others and even I have said and agree with, genitals doesn't make the woman, what's in her mind, feelings, heart, and soul does. ;)

For GRS I dont think you would get any doctor to do it in les than one full year on HRT anyway. But the hormones take time to work, thats why its better to let them work and then decide how you feel.

Quote from: amber1964 on January 15, 2014, 07:57:57 PM
For GRS I dont think you would get any doctor to do it in les than one full year on HRT anyway. But the hormones take time to work, thats why its better to let them work and then decide how you feel.

Oh I know the hormones won't make me feel any less female. Even on the short time I've been on them I feel better than I ever have. My point I suppose was that I won't consider surgery until I've given the hormones ample time to do their thing which is 2 years maybe even more, but, that I know I'll eventually need the one, SRS for my own well being. ;)

Quote from: Allyda on January 15, 2014, 08:19:01 PM
Oh I know the hormones won't make me feel any less female. Even on the short time I've been on them I feel better than I ever have. My point I suppose was that I won't consider surgery until I've given the hormones ample time to do their thing which is 2 years maybe even more, but, that I know I'll eventually need the one, SRS for my own well being. ;)

feel the same way

Quote from: stephaniec on January 15, 2014, 08:23:29 PM
feel the same way

Seems we feel the same way on alot of thing Steph, lol! :D ;)

Quote from: Allyda on January 15, 2014, 08:25:07 PM
Seems we feel the same way on alot of thing Steph, lol! :D ;)

yea, its kind of interesting and good to have

Quote from: stephaniec on January 15, 2014, 08:32:54 PM
yea, its kind of interesting and good to have

Agreed, I see your also a veteran, so am I USAF 9 years before my accident ended my career as a pilot in 1991.

Quote from: Allyda on January 15, 2014, 08:34:54 PM
Agreed, I see your also a veteran, so am I USAF 9 years before my accident ended my career as a pilot in 1991.

Yea, I go back a bit farther in time, Viet nam era

Quote from: Allyda on January 15, 2014, 08:19:01 PM
Oh I know the hormones won't make me feel any less female. Even on the short time I've been on them I feel better than I ever have. My point I suppose was that I won't consider surgery until I've given the hormones ample time to do their thing which is 2 years maybe even more, but, that I know I'll eventually need the one, SRS for my own well being. ;)

Funny thing, pre-HRT, I was positive I wanted SRS.. Up to about the 6-month mark on HRT, I still wanted it.. Then the burning desire for it simply faded away..

Quote from: kelly_aus on January 15, 2014, 09:16:56 PM
Funny thing, pre-HRT, I was positive I wanted SRS.. Up to about the 6-month mark on HRT, I still wanted it.. Then the burning desire for it simply faded away..

I think the thing is that the estrogen is what's missing the operation just changes the shape. It's all the same nerves and skin. It's just a personal thing of what's going to give you the life you want with out this damn pain. With the estrogen taking over I feel so much better and my body is conforming more to my mind. I'll feel great beyond belief if my face changes enough to see the female look back at me in the mirror. I see her now slightly and its incredible. I've live in this world as the wrong sex way too long And I happy it's finally me . I'd like to have the operation ,but will see what happens.

Quote from: stephaniec on January 15, 2014, 09:33:01 PM
I think the thing is that the estrogen is what's missing the operation just changes the shape. It's all the same nerves and skin. It's just a personal thing of what's going to give you the life you want with out this damn pain. With the estrogen taking over I feel so much better and my body is conforming more to my mind. I'll feel great beyond belief if my face changes enough to see the female look back at me in the mirror. I see her now slightly and its incredible. I've live in this world as the wrong sex way too long And I happy it's finally me . I'd like to have the operation ,but will see what happens.

Again, great minds think alike Steph. I'm very confident my mind will never change about eventually needing SRS, I've lived in misery just too long giving up the best years of my life pretending I'm something I'm not. I can't wait til I'm further along and start seeing the female I've always been staring back at me in the mirror. That feeling will be so wonderful I doubt I'll have words for it! ;)

Quote from: Chaos on December 20, 2013, 09:33:19 PM
this question is set in stone by society.following a common path that everyone 'must' abide by,in order to remain within its acceptance but couldn't another ask such thinkers 'do you feel human? Or do you 'know' you are human?' The physical form has been the center of society's attention,accepting what fits an 'image' while the rest is cast to the side but doesn't being 'human' have many parts? Do are fingers help to grasp and hold tightly? And our toes give us balance and stability but what of the heart and mind? Do they not lead us,allow us to see and feel but also to build character? Find for yourself,your own path but may it be honest and not one carved by the masses.

this is well said

Quote from: LizMarie on December 27, 2013, 07:27:31 PM
On the social side, it's how we perceive ourselves and how we choose to present ourselves.

On the biological side of the question, in how we perceive ourselves, most of this is in our heads, quite literally, but there are no easy or cheap tests for it, short of a post-mortem on the brain.

What is known about most MTFs is that they have brain structure differences from other males. The differences in brain structure almost always closely resemble the structures in females.

Back in the dark ages of gender identity diagnosis, a doctor at Johns Hopkins (whose name escapes me at the moment) stated that we are born as blank slates and we learn our gender roles so all that matters is how you raise a child. This was put to the test in the infamous "John/Joan" case, where a male with a badly botched circumcision was surgically altered to be a girl and raised as a girl. This, of course failed, and by the age of 14 the child was prepared to commit suicide. Attempts were made to help the child and later as an adult, but as I recall the individual in question ultimately took his own life in his 30s.

Dr. Milton Diamond never believed this theory so he eventually followed up on the "John/Joan" case and discovered that it did not work out the way the theory said it should. And, it turns out, it didn't work out in many other cases as well. Further, Dr. Diamond has stated (in interviews) that scientists have subsequently forced transsexual behavior on animal species by raising the testosterone levels on female fetuses in the womb (and vice versa on male fetuses). In every case, despite being biologically of one sex, these animals would adopt the behaviors of the other sex.

This has led to extensive studies that show that transgender people, going both ways, MTF and FTM, have significant brain structure differences from others of the same biological sex. Since our sense of self is within the brain, we quite literally have female brains in male bodies or male brains in female bodies.

Some of the recent hormonal research is summarized here, in this presentation to the AMA in 2011 (http://media01.commpartners.com/AMA/sexual_identity_jan_2011/index.html). It's a long viewing, over an hour, but I highly recommend it.

Here is one image of just one brain region that is different in MTFs.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flizdaybyday.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F11%2Fmtf_brain_scan_differences.png&hash=35ea3da031287b12445053e69c8c0bbb60910a23)

The image above is the central nucleus of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), in the thalamus. Note that heterosexual and homosexual males have nearly identical brain structures in that region. Note that biological females have very different structures in that region from those of the males. And finally note that MTF transsexuals have brain structures that are very close to the female's and nothing at all like the biological male's neurological structures.

So no, you are not just "gay". :D  And yes, being transsexual is a real medical condition for which there is treatment that works for those who suffer most. That treatment is HRT and transitioning to live in the gender with which you identify.

Reference from my blog: Biological differences in MTFs and cisgender males (http://lizdaybyday.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/biological-differences-in-mtfs-and-cisgender-males/)

the farther along  I get with HRT the more valid this argument becomes for me

As many people are saying here, I don't think having a vaginoplasty makes you any more or less of a woman. I've seen ladies who got a sex change who still looked like men. I've seen MANY transgirls who don't have SRS & a few don't even want SRS but if you saw them, they are complete & 100% women. Ever heard of Sarina Valentina? She's a TS porn star. She doesn't plan to have a sex change but I can bet you that if anyone saw her on the street they wouldn't deny that she is a woman & a very pretty one at that. I'm pretty sure that even if someone saw that she had a penis they wouldn't deny that she's a girl. I don't think a girl needs a vagina to be a girl & although I want one, not all TS do & I'm completely okay with that :P

I agree with Hanazono. In my oppinion I will never feel like a complete woman until I have had  SRS. But with or with out it I am still a woman. And proud to be female! One of my fave sayings is " that thing between my legs does not define me!"

Quote from: Tori on December 20, 2013, 08:45:58 PM
Gender is mental. It has to do with how one views themself, but it also has to do with how others view a person.

Looks matter so much.

I'm going to change / update my posture.

After finally being able to lose the man parts in my face and people finally treating me like a woman now that they can't see a guy in me, I have stopped thinking of myself as something weird in the middle. Now I can say I am a woman... with really malformed and messed up bottoms. And as a woman, SRS is now mandatory for me.

I can understand mandatory

Each there own an should do what makes them feel the most comfortable, but I personally can't see myself as a full woman without SRS either. I do think tho that gender is mental, sex is the body.

Stephanie said

. I lost a lot of girl friends because after a shot time in the relationship  they realized I really wasn't the man inside that I was out side. It hurt quite a long time not understanding why females always seem to treat me the same way after dating for awhile. One girl finally told me that I'd be better off female. It didn't sink in for a long time. Now I know why. I'm not a man.

This was me to a T as well. I knew of my feminine feelings way back then but tried desperately to be the man whatever THAT is. I was better suited to being their friends instead.

You're a "proper woman" even before Hrt!
No operation or medication can really determine your inner self and that's the thing that matters.

That being said I still want GRS as soon as I can possibly get it :)

I am undergoing HRT, but still pre-op although SRS is in my game plan. I am a woman now. I was a woman before HRT. And if it isn't obvious, I will still be a woman after SRS.

Also I have never considered any female identified person who was pre-op, non-op, non-passing anything other that what she says she is, a woman.

Your finish line only needs to be important to you.

So it sounds like to me that there are two separate camps.  Those who want/need/desire SRS to feel complete, and those others who feel that it "does not matter what is between their legs".

Sounds like "whatever works" and/or "different strokes for different folks".

As for me I've always without a doubt have been and am a woman. Just a woman who is very sad and unhappy with her malformed genitalia. However I must have my SRS in order for me to feel whole. When I have my SRS this spring it will be just as much corrective surgery as it will be to form my vagina.

Having said the above. IMHO here is the bottom line regarding the question: No, I don't believe one needs to have had SRS to be a woman, however some of us such as myself know we must have SRS to feel whole and complete within and for ourselves. As to what we have between our legs, that is nobody's business but ours.

Ally ;)

For me I never needed SRS to feel mentally like a complete woman..

When I started HRT, i was scared i would be outed, but I learned that cis-woman come in all shapes and sizes... you get beautiful and well figured woman and woman who are not so blessed in the looks dept or with a figure. Then for me it became an attitude thing...  I believed i was female..i embraced female life and with confidence i presented as a female... ok this takes time to come to this level of confidence... and you know what.. the world accepted me as a woman.  ok  when i started hrt I had all my paperwork changed to record me as female.. as per records the male me never existed...this raised my confidence.

I had srs... to complete my journey physically.. but i never needed it to say.. world i am woman... I love my vagina and i am glad i did it... as now i can have sex with my boyfriend, like a woman physically and its feels good. Yes some say i you can have anal sex.. and yes i have had anal sex and i have kinda liked it.. but vaginal sex is better.. then i love being penetrated. I only issue i have, i wish i could fall pregnant and have his baby.

Being a woman .. for.. the physical part is important... i.e. having breasts, a vagina and curves.. but if you don't believe it in your head and are not confident in your gender... all the curves and breasts will mean nothing.

So is it really okay to invalidate others here as long as you make it clear that it's only "your opinion"?  Am I allowed to have and voice an opinion that surgery doesn't make you a woman either, as long as it's prefaced with a reassurement that it's only my opinion?  There's a time and place for opinions of that nature, and I don't come here to see them.  Just to be clear, I am not choosing to be offended, it's merely offensive by nature. 

Guess I better say this again, just in case, this is my opinion only and you're allowed to have a different one.

The site rules are clear.

I think people need to read ToS and consider their posts.

Topic locked