Hello guys and dolls.
What constitutes passability?
What does a person mean when they say "I pass." or "He/she's passable."?
Is there a generally accepted definition as to what 'passable' entails?
What counts as 'passable'?
Is a TS passable if he/she doesn't generate strange looks on people's faces?
Is a TS passable if he/she can walk down the street without someone yelling "That's a man!" or "What a dyke!" (no offense intended to any lesbians here)?
Is an FtM passable if he gets 'sirred' occasionally?
Or is he only considered passable if the 'sirs' outnumber the 'ma'ams'?
Or is he only considered passable if the 'ma'ams' are very rare?
Is a TS considered passable if they are neither 'sirred' or 'ma'amed' (not called by either title)?
Can a TS still be considered passable if upon exiting the restroom of their target gender, he/she is gawked at by half a dozen people with horrified looks on their faces?
Is someone considered passable if they pass 50% of the time?
What percentage counts as passable?
So, what criteria does one have to meet before they can truthfully say "I pass."?
When is a person considered 'non-passable'?
Or is that term only reserved for those who never pass in any shape or form whatsoever?
When a person says they pass, what do they really mean?
I'm counting on you all to enlighten me.
Thanks.
Nero
Nero....
Without trying to fuel another debate.
It is called Stealth.
When you fully integrate into society, live, work, play and love in your adopted gender, without any person, employer being aware of your previous history (unless of course you wish to tell them).
In this case everyone who you interact with on a daily basis, preceives you as nothing less than the gender you are transitioning to / or have transitioned to.
Passing is a whole package, physical appearance, voice, mannerisms, traits, non-verbal communication, confidence (which is always underated in my opinion), which applies to both MTF and FTM.
So IMHO... passability is basically living, undetected (from a TS point of view) as a man or a woman in society.
Even though I have lived stealth now for 3 years, I still get called SIR on the phone from time to time, does this mean I do not pass??
Buffy
Being able to move about freely in society without anyone suspecting that you are anything other than what you project. Never being questioned, doubted, or looked at funny. Like Buffy said, stealth.
Quote from: Lori on July 09, 2007, 07:13:51 AM
Being able to move about freely in society without anyone suspecting that you are anything other than what you project. Never being questioned, doubted, or looked at funny. Like Buffy said, stealth.
Lori, I thought that was everyone's objective...
Quote from: Susan's WikiWhere the person is being perceived by the public as anything other than their birth sex this is described as passing.
Thus a man cross-dressed as a woman would be deemed to pass if nobody realised that the person they were seeing was not in fact female.
If someone correctly determines that somebody is transgendered then they are said to have been read. However, many members of the public will be very discreet if they think they've read someone - this may be out of politeness, sympathy, respect, shyness or because they are uncertain and are too embarrassed to mention it in case it's not.
I have to agree with the above from our Wiki. But that's not to say that passing equates to beauty cause it doesn't, period.
Steph
Quote from: Susan's WikiWhere the person is being perceived by the public as anything other than their birth sex this is described as passing.
Thus a man cross-dressed as a woman would be deemed to pass if nobody realised that the person they were seeing was not in fact female.
If someone correctly determines that somebody is transgendered then they are said to have been read. However, many members of the public will be very discreet if they think they've read someone - this may be out of politeness, sympathy, respect, shyness or because they are uncertain and are too embarrassed to mention it in case it's not.
I agree as well. The last example doesn't help anyone in the long run. But I think there are tel tale signs if someone is reading a TS and pretends they don't..
Back in the sixties, men belonging to a culture called hippies and flower children had long hair. They were mistaken for women all the time and they didn't wear any cosmetics. Now there could be an almost flawlessly female looking MTF be outed for only one reason, insensetivity and bigotry.
Could be the real problem is this segment of our society that continually tries to make others feel bad about themselves in order to further their own ideals. One thing I've noticed about these people is that they enjoy the sadness of others. I wonder if we not only sluffed off their comments but rubbed their noses in our happyness if they would stop being such jerks.
"Passing" is a chimera. You can never really know if you pass without asking people, at which point you have outed yourself and so no longer are passing. It is far easier to know when you are not passing. You can make some assumptions based on how people react to your presence, but that is not certainty.
Quote from: Berliegh on July 09, 2007, 09:33:41 AM
Quote from: Lori on July 09, 2007, 07:13:51 AM
Being able to move about freely in society without anyone suspecting that you are anything other than what you project. Never being questioned, doubted, or looked at funny. Like Buffy said, stealth.
Lori, I thought that was everyone's objective...
Not everyone's objective is stealth. Some people are pretty open about their trans status intentionally (writers, activist, etc). Do not make the foolish assumption that stealth is every transsexuals primary objective. They choose not to pass on a certain level to educate and advocate.
Stealth is not for everybody.
Stealth, not stealth, same difference to me. All I want is to live my life.
I don't consider living my life on a day to day basis as being stealth. To me, my background is no one's business other than my own.
Sarah L.
Hmm, in rereading that I am not sure it doesn't sound rude, I didn't mean it to be, if I am lucky my new meds will make it here today and I won't be so angry.
I pass and say so due to the number of people who come up to me and tell me that they had no idea I was T until I outed myself. I am very open within the leather community and also have done lectures for groups and schools on the topic of gender variant individuals. I also say I pass because of a few situations in which people who have known me and know that I am TS admit that they forget that little fact until I say something that brings it up. This has led to a couple of uncomfortable situations with one or two straight males in the past.
Do I still get read? Yes and sometimes I even manage to reverse the perception. I once met a gal who was TS and supermodel gorgeous. Great figure, great voice, etc, etc. Yet she talked about how she had been read here and there. Some people seem to have the knack for it (clocking T folks) while many others do not.
The real questions are, how much does it matter to you and why?
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 09, 2007, 11:48:35 AM
"Passing" is a chimera. You can never really know if you pass without asking people, at which point you have outed yourself and so no longer are passing. It is far easier to know when you are not passing. You can make some assumptions based on how people react to your presence, but that is not certainty.
Lisbeth, I really like your thoughts here. Being passable to me is just the ability to be dressed as a woman and not to get any bad looks from people when I go out.
Gina :icon_dance:
Quote from: regina on July 09, 2007, 11:05:43 AM
Hey Nero, that's no fair that you didn't offer your own view. Pony up, boy!
When someone makes the statement "I pass." without any percentage added, I assume they mean they pass all the time, or most of the time. Getting the occasional read or the occasional wrong title (sir or ma'am) on the phone, still counts as 'passing all the time' in my book provided you can live everyday life with no one 'detecting your birth sex' (as Tink said ;)) 'Passing most of the time' to me would be passing a minimum of 70% of the time. Passing on a daily basis if you will. Anyone going around bragging that they pass without indicating how often, if it's any less than what I've just defined, is either deluding themselves or misleading people IMO.
Some TS will go on and on to me about how well they pass - and then I discover later that they consider being 'sirred'/'ma'amed' a few times and not yet being accosted in the men's/women's room passing. ::)
Quote from: gina_taylor on July 09, 2007, 01:46:53 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 09, 2007, 11:48:35 AM
"Passing" is a chimera. You can never really know if you pass without asking people, at which point you have outed yourself and so no longer are passing. It is far easier to know when you are not passing. You can make some assumptions based on how people react to your presence, but that is not certainty.
Lisbeth, I really like your thoughts here, but if we'e having to ask people if we're passable, then that's like tipping our hate to them and letting them know that something is wrong. Being passabel to me is just the ability to be dressed as a woman and not to get any bad looks from people when I go out.
My point has always been that as long as we are treated with respect it doesn't matter whether we pass or not.
QuoteMy point has always been that as long as we are treated with respect it doesn't matter whether we pass or not.
I agree Lisbeth. I wonder how invested in passing people would be if society truly accepted all transpersons and diverse expressions of gender.
zythyra
QuoteDon't hold your breath... it ain't gonna happen in either of our lifetimes. And accept them as what? If that means just being tolerated, no thanks.
Gina,
I'm not holding my breath, although when change finally happens, it often happens fast. Even since 1993 when I originally came out as transgender, I've seen an amazing amount of change and public awareness. I will do whatever I can in my life so that subsequent generations don't have to go through as much pain about being gender variant as I did. I agree, I want much more than just tolerance! But I'll take that as a necessary first step towards acceptance.
QuoteBtw, a lot of what comes under the category of 'things one does to pass' I do for myself, not for anyone else.
Absolutely, anything we do should be for ourselves, not for others. That's why I feel it's so important to truly confront ones own internalized shame and transphobias to make sure we're changing for the right reasons.
zythyra
Quote from: regina on July 09, 2007, 02:38:37 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 09, 2007, 02:19:59 PM
My point has always been that as long as we are treated with respect it doesn't matter whether we pass or not.
Which is fine if that's what you want. Lisbeth, that works for you, good. It will make things easier.
For me, it isn't. I wish to live socially as a woman as completely as possible and to the best of my ability have my outsides match my brain and spirit. In my experience it's very different when people know and when they don't know. Just because someone gives you a 'have a nice day' smile, or a friend says 'I like you because you're a good person (as opposed to a good woman)' doesn't mean you're getting either respect or a woman's life. In many ways, you're having your gender stripped away from you.
My thought is that you must live a very frustrating life expending all that energy without ever really knowing whether it makes a difference or not. How do you
know when you pass? How do you know when you have done enough? I'd rather live my life than spend it that way.
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 10, 2007, 09:14:02 AM
My thought is that you must live a very frustrating life expending all that energy without ever really knowing whether it makes a difference or not. How do you know when you pass? How do you know when you have done enough? I'd rather live my life than spend it that way.
Yup, exactly. Obsessing on passing was making my life feel like an act, a permanent audition for a role I'd never know for sure if I got or not.
I DO pass absolutely, every time 100%... but as ME. As Kate. I know people will say,
"But no! If you don't fool them into believing the lie that you're a genetic female, you're not being seen as you..." and I say the HECK I'm not! Do they treat me differently, knowing my male origins? I have no idea... but ya know, non-pretty women get treated differently too, as do tall ones, smart ones... etc. Had I been BORN female, I'd just be whining about how no one sees the "real me" for other reasons. Genetics don't gaurantee being seen as you feel you are inside.
~Kate~
Although I really don't care so much what people think, I do pass. I have many friends that know about me because they know me before, and I've always been very social and you'll find me out at the club several times a month.
One thing that I've started to notice is that even with people who know me they have a hard time seeing me as my past. I'm treated just like any other girl, and even though they know in the back of there minds my past, it seems to slip away from them. It's been an interesting experience with that.
On Saturday I met a guy who's friends with a friend of mine. He's pretty cute and him and I hit it off. It wasn't until 4 am when I all of a sudden realized that this guy has no clue about my past.
I pulled my friend aside and asked her if he knew that I'm trans, and she was, "Um, I'm not sure -- I think he might, maybe not?"
The reason, of course, is that I almost went home with him and that would have been very awkward seeing as I haven't had corrective surgery yet and I wouldn't want a surprise happening. At the same time, I'm also involved in a complex relationship with my girlfriend, and we're trying to work things out. As well, I'm not sure if I'm ready for a relationship with anyone at this time anyway.
It's kind of strange, too, because people who know me and are now seeing me as a woman 110% have now started hitting on me (I'm talking about straight guys as well as lesbians). I'm also a flirt -- so, yeah, I tend to make out with a lot of people. And people who don't know, some how don't figure it out even when making out with me. I just stop there, because I'm not ready to go beyond that because I'm not comfortable with intimacy until I get my corrective surgery.
At work I have no issues. I have a couple of friends at work that have known me for a long time and know what I'm about, but the rest of the people at work don't and I have yet to see anyone suspect anything.
Not that I try to hide or pass -- I just be normal and be who I am, and it some how works.
I don't think that I'm 100% perfect. I don't always look or sound perfect. I have confidence, however, and that seems to fill in the gaps.
I really enjoy having people see and treat me like the woman I am. Even happier that people who know my past have now gotten to the point that they can't see me any other way but female.
Still, if the subject of being trans comes up (which it does from time to time), I talk about it. So, even though I don't wear a T-shirt that says, "I'm transexual, ask me how!" I'm still open about who I am and what I'm going through.
By saying I'm trans it doesn't mean that I'm demoting myself or saying that I'm not a woman. I'm a woman for sure. There many women who go through different experiences. My experience as a woman is that I was born with a genetic disorder that caused me to be born with the wrong parts. So my past history, as well as my current transition, is important to me as a woman's experience. Not everyone will agree with that, but hat is fine; while others will, which is fine, too.
Of course, I could go on and on about that -- but this post is already getting long enough.
Going back to my point, is that people know and are curios about it. I am open about my experience and my past as long as it's with people who are willing to listen. I get a lot of questions from my friends who find the whole thing interesting. I've told friends of friends who, after I talked to them, said, "Wow, I didn't know that."
And still, even with being open about my transexuality, I'm still a woman in my friends' books as well as new people I meet.
So, I don't know what to conclude with, but being 100% stealth is a choice, and so is being open about being trans. As for myself, for 95% of my time, one could consider me Stealth, for the other 5% I'm educating people about my experience as a woman who happens to be transexual. And even then, that 5%, I'm still seen as 100% woman.
And, as a woman, I see my past and transition as an important part of my womanhood. That's not the same for everyone, however. I have friends who have completely dumped and erased there past -- including moving to a new city and leaving most of there friends if not all. While I have another friend who actually shows his old self (he's a MtF). I guess he's the one that inspired me to be the way I am (thnx Ace). I remember meeting him and staying at his house, and being so inspired at how amazing and at peace he was with himself and his past. If anyone were to look or talk to him, no one would see him other than 100% man, but he still sees all of his past experience an important part of manhood. Just like woman have different experiences into womanhood, so did he.
Anyway, sorry for the long ramble. :P
No need to be sorry gothique11 some times we need to ramble, myself included. One thing I note about your post that I can relate to is being treated as a 100% woman by those who know of your past.
This is "acceptance" especially if this is coming from other women and it's affirmation that you belong. It's a good feeling, and an affirming one.
Steph
Very odd experience last night. I got to class about a half hour early, so I sat down with one of my classmates and talked. Because I'm an older student I commented that I'm so much more organized than when I was in school the first time, so she wanted to hear about it. I told her about my majors (math and physics), and she said, "I suppose you were the only girl in the math department." !!! Well, no, I wasn't... on a couple of different levels. I was truthfully able to tell her that 2/3 of the math majors were girls. I... just didn't say whether I was one of them.
This sort of thing happens all the time, but do I pass with everyone? No, of course not.
Quote from: regina on July 09, 2007, 11:05:43 AM
Hey Nero, that's no fair that you didn't offer your own view. Pony up, boy!
My own experience defines passing for myself on layers... I don't believe it's an absolute and it has a lot to do with what the person wishes out of transition and how they experience themself.
Level one passing: Getting ma'amed in person. Always being taken for female on the phone without clues. Having other women say comments to you that suggest they feel you were born this way (childbirth, intimate body-related stories) Walking by groups of rowdy teenagers and not having them stare, loud whispers, make snotty remarks or laugh. Going into women's rooms populated by rowdy teenagers and not hearing them shout/whisper obnoxious comments or laugh. Not having old Chinese ladies glare at you (seriously, the ultimate arbiter!). To my surprise, I've reached this level of passing. I never thought I would. It creeped up on me and it makes me feel as if, yes, I'm doing something right. Very affirming.
Level two passing: Intimate body contact with another (intelligent, perceptive) person and they assume you were born this way. I'm preop for a few more months so I haven't gotten to this stage. It makes me nervous because, apart from my genitals, there are aspects of my body that just don't feel very female yet. Hopefully, by this time next year, I'll know more about this level. It scares and intimidates me but it gets to a kind of close connection with a man both mentally and physically as a woman and this means a tremendous amount to me.
Level three passing: Someone finds out your trans background and, literally, can't fathom that you were ever considered male. Now I know there are people who say this to transitioners, but there's a big difference between saying it (to be a decent person) and really experiencing it. Can't say I'm entirely convinced I'll get to this point? Perhaps just because being over 6', I think that alone could make someone tend to believe the possibility of me being trans, although a lot of this has to do with the sophistication of the person. I live in San Francisco and, while not everyone here is trans-knowledgeable, it is perhaps the hardest city in the world in which to pass.
Passing is a difficult thing to perceive because we don't know what's going on in other people's minds— did they have to ask themselves the gender of this person (me) they're glancing at? Unless they talk to you about your period or childbirth, it's hard to know what they really think. I do get some looks on the street and I never know if it has to do with "oh, she's tall" or "look at the ->-bleeped-<-" or "I'd like to do her" or "I wish I was tall and thin". Which one of those (or something else) are they thinking? An important part of passing will be when I don't need to ask myself that question.
ciao,
Gina M.
Hmmm, that's very interesting. I definitely pass at level 2 (as much as possible being pre-op) as long as my genitals aren't seen/touched. I have been intimate with several people who had no idea until genitals got involved. :icon_shakefist: Now the only person I'm intimate with still treats me how I want to be treated.
Then I pass at level 3 sometimes. I have told several people who could not fathom it. I had to actually spend time arguing with them and showing proof. Other people just kind of shrug and say ok. Maybe they don't believe me or maybe they don't care. Either way, I know how it feels to be treated as a GG and as a TS. I prefer being treated like a GG. There's definite subtle differences, so I can usually tell based on body language if somebody has read me.
However, to be passable, I don't think the last level is really required. It's nice to have, but I think there are some GGs who can't even get to that level.
Regarding integrating into society, I can do *almost* anything I want to that's within physical limitations (i.e. no childbirth or anything involving a vagina). Recently I have gone swimming in a bikini (tape does wonders) and am now rehearsing in a musical as a female singer/actress. I've had absolutely no surgery, but I am constantly putting my passability to the test. Once I have SRS, I don't see that there's anything I can't do that an infertile GG can. Heck, after SRS, I may even try going to MWMF (http://www.michfest.com/) where only GGs (and trans-men ::)) are supposedly allowed just to do it. I just don't trust them enough before surgery since they may have something devious set up to scan genitals or something like with those new controversial airport x-rays.
So, to me passing means not only being seen as a woman, but being able to do just about everything I would be able to do had I been born as a girl. If there's something about me that doesn't pass sometimes (or even makes me apprehensive), I will work to find a way to correct it (or learn to accept it). I think I have an slight Adam's apple, but everyone (with the exception of Dr. O) I've voiced that concerned to looks at me like I'm crazy and that they can't tell. Truth be told, I can't see it without bending my head WAY back, but I can feel it. So I have learned to accept it--learning that some GGs have an Adam's apple helped.
My waist was in a female location, but it wasn't nearly as exaggerated as a GG's waist, so I started waist training. Last time I checked, I was down about 4 inches (but I temporarily gained a couple pounds). Anyway, it's looking much better now. I prefer non-surgical methods when I work on correcting something if it's possible (i.e. Learning about certain herbal supplements from Asia to assist with breast growth). SRS will be my first transitional surgery.
Regarding the use of the word "blending" to replace "passing". I certainly don't just try and blend. To me that implies you are just trying to get by and hope nobody notices you. In a way, passing carries the same connotations.
I guess if I were to choose a word, it would be "being". I don't pass as a girl. I just go and be a girl. :) Since I am being a girl, there usually is nothing to *be* read. In fact, I would even be bold enough to say that instead of being read, I am merely being mistaken for something else. I just use the word "passing" to convey that idea with a familiar term.
My point has always been that as long as we are treated with respect it doesn't matter whether we pass or not.
[/quote]
Hey Lisbeth, my sentiments exactly. When ever I go out as a woman all that I am looking for is to be treated respect . 'know soemtimes do have my off days and even know that I'm not at my best.
Which is fine if that's what you want. Lisbeth, that works for you, good. It will make things easier.
For me, it isn't. I wish to live socially as a woman as completely as possible and to the best of my ability have my outsides match my brain and spirit. In my experience it's very different when people know and when they don't know.
Gina, I can totally agree with you here, but I've learned to just take life as it is. If I run into someone that I know form my male life, I'll still act like a woman instead of tipping my hat and letting that person know.
My psychologist thinks that I'm 'delusional,' but that's his opinion. He's also tried to convince me that my transsexual problems stem from damage to the frontal lobe of the brain, which handles the social part.
I've met transwomen who transitioned 15-20 ago, said they've lived in complete stealth yet their voices were completely unpassable. Yes, I live in a transaware place, but I still wonder where they did this that nobody noticed?
Sometimes people will look at the body language and when they see a transsexual who has transitioned 15 - 20 years ago, they automatically see them as woman so when they hear their voice, their minds are already seeing them as women, so it doesn't really matter much. Read my post under passing . . .
Gina T. :icon_dance:
I'm not sure I agree with that. If the voice truly doesn't pass, its so jarring that it doesn't matter what the rest looks like. So, the 15-20 year "stealth" must live with people that just decided to humor them, which is perfectly fine. If everybody around you treats you with repect, it will be very hard to know if you don't pass, and it won't matter really.
But, I've met truly delusional people who shuffle from side to side, arms off the body and have voices like darth vader and say they're stealth! Then, I just say whatever and leave them to their little fantasy; it would be pointless to try to break it if they are happy. That's what's important in the end isn't it.
Quote from: regina on July 10, 2007, 03:16:24 PM
So, and how did that experience compare with having a similar conversation and telling someone you're a transsexual?
Just curious.
Gina M.
When I have had those conversations I generally get an "I would never have guessed" and/or a "the surgeon did a great job." (The latter is a non-sequitor since I have never had FFS. What
are people thinking about us?) And it has no affect on our relationship. We just go on as before. Of course that could be because I'm selective as to who I tell.
Quote from: Keira on July 10, 2007, 04:53:09 PM
If the voice truly doesn't pass, its so jarring that it doesn't matter what the rest looks like.
I'm not so sure. While your mileage may differ, I know that my voice doesn't cut it on the phone, but in person people's eyes are overriding their ears.
I have been taking a class this summer and regularly participating in the discussions, etc. A couple weeks ago I got some kind of head congestion that was playing havock with my voice. At one point I started coughing in class, and about a half dozen people looked at me in a very startled way. It wasn't until that point that the dissonance between eyes and ears reached the point that they noticed it.
Plausible deniability.
I know a TS who's read as male all the time because she's a massive dyke however she still maintains stealth.
There's a certain disappointment in having someone else figure it out rather than me telling them. But beyond that it generally isn't an issue. Any friend who drifted away didn't deserve to be my friend anyway. And the vast majority of people I deal with are more concerned with the kind of person I am than my gender history. Yes, I've met discrimination, but in Minnesota that's illegal so people tend to back down. And even though it's waining, "Minnesota nice" is still the rule here.
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 11, 2007, 03:32:22 PM
And the vast majority of people I deal with are more concerned with the kind of person I am than my gender history.
Exactly! I think a lot of TSs are all too quick to blame any negative reactions on their TSism, not passing, discrimination, etc. But you know, sometimes people are rejected because they're just plain not fun to be around. GGs get rejected by other women too, for good reasons (rude, mean) AND bad (not attractive enough, not "cool" enough) reasons.
I know of a TS who is totally passable, and yet they seem to get fired from one job after another, sueing every company and person who crosses them for "discrimination." But they're so utterly confrontational with everyone, constantly spoiling for a fight, I can easily see WHY it keeps happening. It's not that people care she's TS, it's that she's bitter and angry and ends up alienating everyone around her.
Which brings up a question: can you pass as a woman without passing as a genetic female?
~Kate~
Quote from: Keira on July 10, 2007, 04:53:09 PM
I'm not sure I agree with that. If the voice truly doesn't pass, its so jarring that it doesn't matter what the rest looks like. So, the 15-20 year "stealth" must live with people that just decided to humor them, which is perfectly fine. If everybody around you treats you with repect, it will be very hard to know if you don't pass, and it won't matter really.
Keira, if you think about this for a moment, maybe what I said you might understand. Nowadays, there are a lot of natural women out there that wear low cut blouses so that they can show off their cleavage. When a male sees anyone of these women, their eyes are at the clevage and then they'll look at their eyes. I feel it's the same way that when a guy sees a transsexual, he'll be checking her out first and then he'll hear her voice, and by that time it doesn't matter. It's actually happened to me a few times with guys. When I wear a short skirt, they see my legs first.
Gina :icon_dance:
I may be going off topic a little but I think that at this point it may be worth while for other readers here.
Leigh once said in a past incarnation of Susan's:
Quote from: Leigh on January 21, 2006, 02:25:18 PM
What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter
In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread: Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one. 200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.
Leigh
and then Kimberly resurrected this topic in one she started here:
Passing or Acceptance, redux (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2126.0.html)
It's a very interesting read and may be help and insightful to others here.
Just a thought.
Steph
I think Tink said it best keeping it simple it means (that know one can detect your actual birth sex.) But I would bet most people say they pass as soon as they are able to walk down the street and hold light conversations undetected.
And I think reality is that very few are completely undetectable (I am sure not at this time) I know as time goes on the degree in witch I pass grows all the time. I find myself interacting further and further with out detection.
I think this is how it goes for most of us and I be leave we all can pass even the one who are struggling and feel they will never pass will pass, if they stick with it and work hard they will achieve more than they ever thought possible.
How is important is all this well I think it depends on how secure you are. Me ive been insecure and superficial so I have busted my butt trying to pass. But in the back of my mind I know that isn't whats is most important in life. The type of person I am is far more important.
Kristina
See my new baby :angel:
PASS: [This] means to be in [one,s] preferred gender image, and to be able to do so convincingly.
Passing (to pass) - To be able to successfully assume the gender role opposite of physical sex when interacting with society.
Personally speaking I don't at all like the term 'passing', as to me it suggests acting and that's what I did before transition, not after, but hey I realise that that's a whole different thread, so I won't go there right now...
I suppose 'passing' for me would be when people you know or meet just 'feel' you're of your true gender, it's pretty intangible, but you can sense that you're not giving out any suggestion, concious or subconcious that you're anything else than what you appear to be. This goes beyond clothing, looks or the particular activity you're engaged in at any one time, and really is about sending invisible waves of femaleness (or maleness...) to those around you.
One moment that proved to me I 'passed' (or rather that people were at last seeing the true me...) was after I'd been on HRT 6 months and had recently gone fulltime. I was in the loos at work and a very close friend and colleague I'd known before and after transition asked me if I had any tampax I could lend her. Of course I had to politely reminder that I didn't even have a vagina, let alone tampax...
She looked at me puzzled for a few seconds and that just said, oh yeah I forgot.
Voilà!
MVER XXX
Quote from: mavieenrose on July 12, 2007, 12:47:54 PM
Personally speaking I don't at all like the term 'passing', as to me it suggests acting and that's what I did before transition, not after, but hey I realise that that's a whole different thread, so I won't go there right now...
One moment that proved to me I 'passed' (or rather that people were at last seeing the true me...) was after I'd been on HRT 6 months and had recently gone fulltime. I was in the loos at work and a very close friend and colleague I'd known before and transition asked me if I had any tampax I could lend her. Of course I had to politely reminder that I didn't even have a vagina, let alone tampax...
MVER XXX
Yes this is not an act its real life and living a life that any normal female would live.
I always carry tampons in my handbag, I have been asked so many times in toilets, that I now feel obliged to hand one over. Similarly with headache tablets, band aids and a small sowing kit....
Buffy
Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2007, 04:00:40 PMBut you know, sometimes people are rejected because they're just plain not fun to be around. GGs get rejected by other women too, for good reasons (rude, mean) AND bad (not attractive enough, not "cool" enough) reasons.
I've rejected a couple of GGs because I found them kind of annoying. I don't choose my company by just anyone who is willing to be around me, I choose to be with people I like being around. That's one reason I stick around here. ;)
Quote from: regina on July 12, 2007, 02:25:01 PM
Quote from: mavieenrose on July 12, 2007, 12:47:54 PM
This goes beyond clothing, looks or the particular activity you're engaged in at any one time, and really is about sending invisible waves of femaleness (or maleness...) to those around you.
Cher Ma Vie:
I agree that vibe and 'being' are so important, but before we generalize about this, can you acknowledge that we don't all start out with a level playing field? Someone who is young, 5'7", looks very female and has a pretty good voice can send out 'waves of femaleness' and will just be accepted as a woman. Someone who 6'2", doesn't facially pass, has hair issues and, perhaps, not an especially female voice putting out 'waves of femaleness' will have people assuming they're gay or a crossdresser. This has nothing to do with how female you are inside, some of it is just dumb luck.
In my experience, people do innately connect with the physical (and auditory) in terms of gendering. It happens way before anyone can even experience your energy and once it's occurred, it's very difficult for most people to regender you (except over a long period of time, as in your tampon example). Yes, if someone comes off with 'male energy' they will create an incongruity no matter how they look or sound. As I mentioned in another post, it's those incongruities that have people taking a closer look at you and is often when people who are farther along in their transitions don't pass.
Hi Gina,
Yes of course you're right that our physical being is very important and I was clearly over-simplifying things in my previous post. That said, I really do think it's not just about looking female (ie conforming to the stereotyped physical female traits), or male outwardly.
I think the most important thing is to have reached at least a point of ambiguity, a kind of androgony (and no, I'm not trying to suggest that this is at all the same as being 'androgyne').
Once someone can at the very least not be readily categorised based on their physique, then the underlying femaleness or maleness that eminates from the person can come in to tip the balance.
Luckily, most people can't conceive of anything more than 2 genders or sexes, so they will always try to place us as either female or male. If a person appears physically gender neutral, then it's often the person's mannerisms and ways of communicating that will place them firmly in one or other box.
bisous,
MVER XXX
Quote from: regina on July 12, 2007, 02:25:01 PM
Someone who 6'2", doesn't facially pass, has hair issues and, perhaps, not an especially female voice putting out 'waves of femaleness' will have people assuming they're gay or a crossdresser.
Oh I dunno, I mean that pretty much describes me perfectly. My face CAN pass, but not always I'm sure. The hair receded in the temples, though it's reasonably workable. My voice.... eh.... MEW's heard me at my worst (I had just talked to my mom before her and was sorta freaking out), but at it's best it's tolerable, and doesn't scream female by any means. And I am 6'2".
But I don't get laughter, snickers, or anything other than being treated with respect. No one ever seems to assume I'm a crossdresser or that it's a fetish of some sort. I mean OK, I don't know what's going on in their heads, but as best I can tell they just treat me as Kate. Guys hold open doors for me, girls tell me about their babies and annoying husbands.
This is really hard to explain, but I THINK it's because I'm... well... *congruent*. Even if I don't pass, this IS me. I look and seem real, a whole person. I'm not trying to "pass," it's not a role, I'm not "presenting as a woman," I'm not "going out enfemme." This is me, this is my life, and people seem to react accordingly to that.
On the other hand, if someone goes out in a miniskirt and heels with two weeks' beard growth... right or wrong, people are going to feel justified in laughing at them. People don't seem to like fakeness, or incongruence, or what they see as pretending to be something you aren't. So as odd as it sounds, I don't *try* to pretend that I'm a genetic female... I just focus on being Kate and hope for the best. No one can really laugh at me for being Kate, though they MIGHT laugh if I seemed like I was trying to fool them into believing I was a genetic female. There's a subtle difference there that's difficult to explain. And if people DO think I'm a genetic female, well that's a wonderful gift. But if they realize I'm a genetic male, it still doesn't ruin the impression that I'm still ME, still Kate, as THAT'S what I focus on projecting... just HERE I AM! THIS IS ME, WARTS AND ALL! lol...
~Kate~
Passing is not worth obsessing over.
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 12, 2007, 03:24:03 PM
Passing is not worth obsessing over.
Ya know, I struggle and ponder and end up writing paragraphs of dribble to try and convey some point I can't seem to put into words...
Then YOU come along, and sum it up into a sentence ;)
Hugs,
~Kate~
Quote'Pass' is a lousy word, and a word that has ugly assumptions and imposes a lot of judgments on us from broader society.
I agree Gina. I don't know what word to replace it with at this moment, but am going to give this some thought. Wouldn't it be nice to have a word the celebrates our beauty of who we are without all the negative baggage that "passing" has accumulated.
zythyra
Quote from: regina on July 12, 2007, 02:25:01 PM
Quote from: mavieenrose on July 12, 2007, 12:47:54 PM
This goes beyond clothing, looks or the particular activity you're engaged in at any one time, and really is about sending invisible waves of femaleness (or maleness...) to those around you.
I agree that vibe and 'being' are so important, but before we generalize about this, can you acknowledge that we don't all start out with a level playing field? Someone who is young, 5'7", looks very female and has a pretty good voice can send out 'waves of femaleness' and will just be accepted as a woman. Someone who 6'2", doesn't facially pass, has hair issues and, perhaps, not an especially female voice putting out 'waves of femaleness' will have people assuming they're gay or a crossdresser. This has nothing to do with how female you are inside, some of it is just dumb luck.
I agree. I've had passable ftms (those with naturally androgynous faces and voices) tell me 'it's all in the attitude'.
Well, it doesn't matter how much 'attitude' or confidence you have if you have a feminine face and a voice like Marilyn Monroe.
Posted on: July 12, 2007, 06:08:26 PM
Quote from: regina on July 12, 2007, 03:42:27 PM
My concern in this thread is that we're somehow stigmatizing people who don't pass, perhaps because their 'vibe' isn't right, when a lot of times, it's due to physical issues or just getting better with voice, presentation, whatever.
There
is a stigma throughout the TS community to those who don't pass - one that I've felt here in the past.
People think that because a lot of pre-testosterone ftms pass (or claim to ::)), that an ftm who doesn't isn't trying hard enough or emanating the right 'vibe' from their being. (I can't take testosterone at this time due to medical issues)
People have suggested I do everything including losing weight - I have a very male pattern fat distribution, so rest assured that is
NOT the reason I don't pass. I've been doing everything I can to 'present as male' for more than a decade. If there were something I wasn't doing right, I think I'd have figured it out by now. I really resent being given passing advice and criticism from ftms who were clad in skirts no less than a month ago. ::)
The thing is - there are lots of genetic women who could pass for a young male if they chopped off their hair, wiped off the makeup, and put on men's clothes. It really
is just sheer dumb luck.
No matter what you look like, you have to live your life according to who you are. Let the public be damned.
Most people walking around never look that close at those whom they walk by, they are too busy with their own life to worry about others. I think maybe we look closer at others because we are TS, we shouldn't.
Sarah L.
Oy vey. Still with the passing thing.
Everyone should already know my POV, but if not, here it is again:
The point about passing, is that there is no point. If you have to pass as something, than it means that you are not that thing, because you are trying to pretend that you are that thing, and actively working to prevent people from knowing that you are not that thing. If you have to think about "it," you are not "it." Mature women do not wake up and think about whether they are a woman that day. They are a woman. Teenage girls wake up and wonder about how to be seen as a grown up woman, and vice versa boys and men. More on that below.
I take the blame for this one too:
QuoteQuote from: Leigh on January 21, 2006, 03:25:18 PM
What Makes a Woman", or a man for that matter
In one of the previous incarnations of Susan's I started a thread: Passing or Acceptance?
Would you rather totally pass as a woman and not be accepted as one or be accepted totally as one but not pass as one. 200 + replies later the verdict was still not in.
Leigh
It came out of a discussion we had around the kitchen table.
See, in the lesbian world, in the world of dykes, and in the greater world community, many women would not fit your popular caricature of what a woman should look like, be like, behave like. The whole idiom of passing is based on a barbie doll mentality. It's high schoolish.
Someone made the correct observation that older women that have transitioned have a gradual lessening of fear about being 'outed' and more of a laissez faire attitude toward the whole passing mentality. I think that it is due to the personalities involved growing up. Let's face it. This whole thing is major trauma for all of you. It is accurate to compare it to PTSS, which leaves the person involved left in a state of perpetual childhood.
As Tink has pointed out to me, I have to back off and let you guys and gals go thru puberty.
To go through the awkward stages that most people take for granted. Passing is only going to be important to you until you become comfortable in your own skins, until you are allowed to let your personality grow, and until you are confident in the women and men that you are. Eventually, you go on with your lives and all of this bookish obsession with definitions and what is basically peer pressure will all fade away, just like for non-transitioning kids.
Of everyone here, I feel that Melissa has the best handle on "it." Concentrate on being you, and being happy being you, and the rest, you will find, does not matter a whit. Until then, you will all continue in your own version of teenage angst.
QuoteI feel stupid and contagious
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My Libido
Yay, a denial
~ smells like teen spirit, nirvana
I can't figure myself out sometimes. When I think I really do have myself figured out, and am well on the way to where I want to be, something comes along and knocks me back into confusion again. For example. The advice that follows? Not only do I wholeheartedly believe it and give similar advice to others, I genuinely felt it as true of me.
Quote from: Thundra on July 12, 2007, 06:48:06 PMIf you have to pass as something, than it means that you are not that thing, because you are trying to pretend that you are that thing, and actively working to prevent people from knowing that you are not that thing. If you have to think about "it," you are not "it." Mature women do not wake up and think about whether they are a woman that day. They are a woman. Teenage girls wake up and wonder about how to be seen as a grown up woman, and vice versa boys and men.
And then just when I was starting to feel really secure as described above, I try to talk with others and in comparison with them, I realize I was nowhere near what they are describing, and start to spiral down into the pit of gloom again, wondering just how badly have I deluded myself this time.
I was so happy I was making progress, but then in perspective I see others who have been hugely successful at it, and not only does my progress appear teeny tiny in comparison, they rub it in by belittling me for daring to presume I could be in the same league as them.
QuoteSee, in the lesbian world, in the world of dykes, and in the greater world community, many women would not fit your popular caricature of what a woman should look like, be like, behave like. The whole idiom of passing is based on a barbie doll mentality. It's high schoolish.
I am having a hard time getting what you mean by this, in the light of what was said by others in this thread... when no one knows your natal sex... when they can't believe you used to be male, for example... from very un-Barbie looking girls. They are using the whole idiom of passing too, but Barbie has nothing to do with what they're talking about.
QuotePassing is only going to be important to you until you become comfortable in your own skins, until you are allowed to let your personality grow, and until you are confident in the women and men that you are. Eventually, you go on with your lives and all of this bookish obsession with definitions and what is basically peer pressure will all fade away, just like for non-transitioning kids.
I believe this wholeheartedly... I was feeling so comfortable in my own skin! A few months ago, I walked into a women's club, walked right up to a table of old ladies, introduced myself, and asked if I could join them, so they invited me to sit with them. I know really well by now how it feels when people read you as trans, but ignore it to be polite. I did not feel that this time, the vibes I got from them told me I was not being read as trans. I was simply
being a woman because I know that's who I am. I wondered if it was because they were elderly, but I could tell the difference from before, and it felt like they took it for granted I was a natal woman same as them. Because through and through I
felt I was doing nothing more than living my genuine womanhood, not acting or pretending or anything.
I went to a mall for a makeover a couple weeks ago, and afterwards walking around with a girlfriend, I noticed a distinct difference from when I first started presenting in public. I used to get stares everywhere I went and had long since become inured to it. Now, no one gave me a second glance. No double takes. It meant I wasn't being clocked. The difference was unmistakable. We went to shop in a women's clothing store, trying on things and coming out to show her, and I just felt exactly in my element, not faking it, finally just being the real me and loving it.
So why do I feel so discouraged, like all the progress I've made so far is nothing compared to the successes that girls here relate... and when I express my confidence they belittle me and show me how I am nowhere near their league...
QuoteOf everyone here, I feel that Melissa has the best handle on "it." Concentrate on being you, and being happy being you, and the rest, you will find, does not matter a whit. Until then, you will all continue in your own version of teenage angst.
I sincerely believe that what you have said is the truth, and what's more I sincerely believed I was living out the truth of it in my life, and making it work for me. I wasn't faking it or trying to make myself believe it, I simply felt the truth of it and felt that I was there already. So why am I feeling so discouraged now? None of this makes sense to me sometimes. Right now I don't understand anything any more. Was I just deluding myself? If so, what is real? How will I ever know what is real? I don't know any more.
Quote from: regina on July 12, 2007, 09:42:19 AM
Quote from: Krisstina on July 11, 2007, 09:23:26 PM
I think Tink said it best keeping it simple it means (that know one can detect your actual birth sex.)
Kristina
See my new baby :angel:
Kristina,
While it's an okay quickie way of looking at passing, I'm not certain how connected to reality that is. When you say 'no one can detect,' does that mean people walking down the street, on the phone, people helping you in a store, your lover, your massage therapist, you're in a space where other transwomen might be, a doctor who gives you a physical... ? There are a lot of different situations with a lot of different levels of body intimacy (not to mention voice!). Do you have to pass in all those situations? Just a question.
ciao,
Gina M.
ps. Your little peanut looks beautiful in your avatar! I wish you much happiness and a good night's sleep.
Yes your correct that was kinda my point if taken in literal since it means you pass all the way down that long list of things you mentioned. Literally that is what it means but we all know that is an impossible standard so we have to look within that and measure are selves in degrees. That is assuming that you are measuring, or wondering how you would, or how other people do measure it!
Thank for the comment on peanut smiles she is my second one to raise!!!!!!
Quote from: regina on July 12, 2007, 11:11:13 PMJust speaking purely from my experience, this is not helpful advice to give to someone who's actively transitioning. We all experience many moments of doubt and, yes, there IS a LOT to think about and that doesn't for a second mean someone is not the gender they know themselves to be. Mature women have a lifetime to experiment with the female aspects of themselves, their relationships with other people, their relationship to their physical self and who they are as a woman in the world. Transwomen go through this process (at varying ages) in a very short period of time, usually with little support or encouragement.
QuoteConcentrate on being you, and being happy being you, and the rest, you will find, does not matter a whit. Until then, you will all continue in your own version of teenage angst.
And do you understand that many people who transition don't really know who they are? They've spent a lifetime living as someone else, often someone they really don't know or can't connect to and they're supposed to just transition, be themselves (whoever that is) and be happy right off the bat? How about some compassion or doesn't that mix well with teenaged smugness?
ciao,
Gina M.
I'm really glad you said this, Gina, even though in principle I agree that what Thundra advised is the ideal... it doesn't just happen because one tells herself it's the right way to feel, just because everyone repeats it like a catechism. It took me at least a year of inner work, and a lot of estrogen pills, before I was able to make this concept work for me, through and through from the inside out. Now I can feel it, but frankly, when I was only telling myself I was supposed to feel it, it was not working for me. It was very valuable to post a reminder that it doesn't happen perfectly and instantaneously. And even once it had begun to feel real for me, I still went back and forth with it, working out the kinks, know what I'm sayin. Work toward this goal, but don't beat yourself up if you're not there yet, also don't think less of those who still struggle and fall short of it. It just takes time and personal inner growth, like you said.