I really don't consider myself religious, but my parents are very much so and it influences my life, I certainly cannot simply not think about it. The question is, if hell is real am I not going there for being transgendered? The bible does say a man or woman wearing the other genders clothes is an abomination. I'm so worried about this. :(
I'm an atheist, but the bible is clear. Eunuchs are among the most pious, and that is the closest parallel available.
Quote from: Hopeful cutie on March 19, 2014, 10:27:12 AM
I really don't consider myself religious, but my parents are very much so and it influences my life, I certainly cannot simply not think about it. The question is, if hell is real am I not going there for being transgendered? The bible does say a man or woman wearing the other genders clothes is an abomination. I'm so worried about this. :(
The bible doesn't say dressing in clothes of the opposite sex is an abomination. Can I make a suggestion don't listen to others interpretation of the bible or what God likes or doesn't like. Pray and ask for his guidance with this if God has a problem with it you will know.
That passage from Leviticus is a straw grabbed at by the group that wants to use it. It was intended for a specific group of ancient Hebrew's though, and is in the context of neighborly dealings which is important for context.
Abomination in the meaning of those passages applies to a clergy class of person, the effect today would be if your pastor has on a wool suit and a polyester pulpit gown, he cannot preach his Sunday sermon! (Great for the congregation since they don't have to pay the dude!)
The abominations related to a death sentence involved clergy folk doing things the other religions' of the times clergy folk did and with the other religion's clergy folk. Firing the renegade clergy was simpler that way. Not good for their retirement prospects.
A couple that relate to non clergy people were the result of inaccurate scientific knowledge that has since been cleared up, ----well sorta cleared up unless you are a creation scientist and not all of them.
You are not going to hell baby! Remember G-D made us in the image of G-D, male and female. You are a part of that. The old testament Laws of Moses was used to guide believers before Christ's coming. It also says to follow ALL of the laws or it is an abomination. No one I know has ever followed all the laws prescribed in it. The Mosaic Laws became mute anyway when Jesus came. He himself said all you have to do to enter the kingdom of G-D is to profess a belief in G-D whole heartedly. The laws of Moses became void at that point. :)
I'm not a biblical scholar, but Leviticus is part of the OT's Mosaic Law (aka: the law) which was given to the Jewish people -- unless you are of the Jewish faith, the Law isn't applicable to you: Christians are saved through faith in Jesus (read the book of Galation (sp?) -- only four chapters, really short); it's comforting to me, at least. :)
I'd rather go to hell than end up in heaven with the people who think I'm an abomination. Or was it the other way around? ;)
No the hell we experience is a bit different and on this earth. But we need to keep the spirit and truths of the whole gospel, its compassion, its purity, etc, and get that main communion with Christ through prayer. We need His help in transition big time, and He will give it. The enemy, however, will seek to inflame any misunderstood scriptures, lies, bigotry, negative thinking and just plain gunk to get us to say oh well I'm done I might as well go out and live like heck... that dear is a trick.
Not hell for trans. Especially when you get that there are some physical causes for it that we didn't ask for, making it a birth anomoly.
Keep posting in here there is a lot of help and most of us drove ourselves nuts on your very question, doing extensive research that eventually set us free to worship Jesus in Spirit and in Truth.
I am persueded that a person goes to hell from rejecting the free gift of salvation for their sins, not because someone is transgendered, or wears clothes of the opposite sex/gender which btw, isn't the same as being transgendered.
Now I needed that one tonight myself Malachite. Thanks!
Quote from: Satinjoy on March 24, 2014, 06:59:13 PM
Now I needed that one tonight myself Malachite. Thanks!
That is pretty comforting, isn't it? :)
No. I was brought up in a very religious family also and always thought my fate was fixed. But when I finally got to the point where I felt this game was no fun any more and was ready to quit playing; I read a couple passages that spoke to me, and I began my transition that month. I have been blessed in that every time one door would close another would open. God created me, and he created me the way he wanted me to be, transsexual. He did not make a mistake, and people that continue to say God would not put a female spirit in a male body needs to read and study Job, God made it clear that he did not appreciate someone speaking for him, or questioning his plan. They may not understand his plan, neither do I; but that doesn't mean they should say it's not something God would do. That reeks of arrogance and pride, the same sin that brought down angels.
Kia Ora HC,
"Those who fear they shall suffer....already suffer what they fear !" ::)
Metta Anatta :)
Quote from: Malachite on March 24, 2014, 06:39:46 PM
I am persueded that a person goes to hell from rejecting the free gift of salvation for their sins, not because someone is transgendered, or wears clothes of the opposite sex/gender which btw, isn't the same as being transgendered.
^ This! ^
Stop worrying. I'm an atheist myself and I reason that since there are no evidence of a hell existing I have nothing to worry about.
Quote from: Quarky on March 25, 2014, 09:05:16 AM
Stop worrying. I'm an atheist myself and I reason that since there are no evidence of a hell existing I have nothing to worry about.
Quarky that's like refusing to admit that a car is coming as you step out into traffic and by not acknowledging it's existence that it won't be there. No I think all of the previous posts were more helpful to the OP as it's been a consensus of billions who have gone before you that G-d is,
As someone who has a lot of faith in god and has read the bible and still does I have to say that there is nothing in there saying you are going to hell. It is ignorant people who quote one line. There is so much in there that if quoted out of context would mean we are all going to hell. So please if you are truly concerned I suggest reading from front to back very slowly and really trying to understand what the text is saying. If you can do that I am sure you will feel better and you will not have to concern yourself with what others are going to think. Just remember that you can not argue with someone's faith. It is never worth it. I have learned that it is better to just smile and say that you have your own beliefs and do not expect them to understand yours so if they could display the same courtesy that would be wonderful. I hope this helps.
Disclaimer: These are my opinions and I truly respect others belief systems what ever they may be.
Here is my opinion and I tread lightly as everyone has their own image of God. I was raised Lutheran. And I still believe in God, but that is where I went off on a tangent. Being somewhat intellectual, I found my self questioning the bible. So being the inquisitive person I am I started researching different religions and their origins. After talking with people who have actually read and helped translate the bible from the original scrolls and Greek and Hebrew text today's translation is so far from the original text and it is a wonder it makes any sense at all. This is the consensus of more than 90% of linguistic scholars. And that hold true to for Islam text also.
Are you going to hell? If there actually is one, I doubt it. I myself am a realist... I believe there is a creator, but it didn't happen in 3000 years. Let's face it, Science is based on fact where religion is based poor translations and faith. I am saddened by the number of people that have died due to religious beliefs. Anyway I am rambling. I feel God is inside each and every one of us and how we treat other people reflects his/her image. As humans I think when you put us into the vast wonder of creation we at this point do not have the ability to grasp it all, and are just a small part of that miracle.
There's a line about Bible quoting -- "Proof-text without context is pretext." i.e., read the whole thing. It's best, I think, to read the whole Bible, not small portions. And especially not just single lines out of context. (Applies to more than the Bible.)
One approach suggested to reading the Bible is to look for repetition. And, if you're Christian, to look for things repeated between both the old and the new testament. A single line from the old testament is just that single line. What you'll find repeated within and between the old and new testaments is (in somewhat varying wording*) "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Not merely repeated, but in the new testament, this is the gospels quoting Christ. That strikes me as being ultimate authority if you're a Christian.
What you'll find on reading more completely is that there is no asterisk -- no "unless they're gay, or trans*, or not Christian, or attend a different church or synagogue than you, or dress differently". It is a straightforward commandment, no ifs, ands, or buts. Christ puts this as the second highest of all commandments (the first being to worship the Lord). Again, solid authority for Christians.
So, my take is that if Christians are enjoined to love you, as their neighbor, and without qualification, that you can not be on your way to hell for being who the Lord made you.
* The varying wording is also significant. Think about some legalese -- "on or about the 15th", "will not bend, fold, spindle, or mutilate", "in, on, about, within, or near the premises". The varying wording is to ensure that there's little difficulty in figuring out what is meant. So it goes for the passage I quote.
ATTENTION: I am just stating my beliefs and I don't want to offend anyone or any religion...so, don't send me things like "you have no god on your heat" ...thank you.
You are not going to hell.
In my point of view we can live on hell or on paradise. We can be the devil or we can be god. God and the devil are nowehere but inside our hearts.
On my beliefs, there is nothing else than that. We have the power to be good and to do good for others. I think this is our purpose here on Earth. We cannot be seduced by the "dark side" (Am I a Jedi?) ;D
Religion is there to make us fear the unknown, to give us moral laws and make us fear breaking them, like the fear we have for breaking our "sacred" birth gender..the problem is that our morality changes...what could be something "wrong" and impossible centuries ago can now be totally accepted and mainly due to our advances in understanding who we are. Religion can comfort us when we need to believe that there is something beyond death...but at the same time it is a huge brainwash that makes us blind and close-minded to everything that is not stated on the "sacred" books.
If there is a god that will send you to burn for all eternity just because you want to change your gender, then this god doesn't deserve your respect.
And the way you choose to live your life will never change who you are, your morality or turn you into a bad person.
Believe me, if there is indeed a Hell being transgendered is probably fairly low on the list with all the child molesters, murderers, theives, con artists, people that hate because of differences from themselves and many others in the world. OK so life is not supposed to be easy so why would God condemn a person to Hell when we are going through it in life? It is a philosphical question and I really can't tell you for sure what happens after the body dies, because no one really knows. But a lot of people do use the Bible to justify persecution and hate.
In my opinion the Spirit and body are seperate entitis one being physical and the other supernatural bound together because of our fall from grace and to experience the material existance to either rise above it or delve deeper into it. What if a female Spirit is born into a male body or vice versa? God made our Spirits, the world makes our bodies. So naturally the the world or nature may make a mistake such as birth defects, extra limbs, deseases and so on depending a lot on genes. These conditions are not considered abominations. Not to mention drugs that are given to the mother during pregnancy or just a flood of certain hormones, or the development of the brain. Who knows, being transgendered my be gentic or being exposed to certain prenatal conditions? This would not make being transgendered our faults but a natural anomoly in which we are not responsible for.
I wouldn't worry about it, there are different eras contained in the bible in which this was law and that was law but in the end, man wrote the bible with inspiration of a Creator in which they in no way could fully understand and we still can't. With Christ came a better understanding of Spirituality and that was roughly two thousand years ago. In two thousand years do we not think that human Spirituality hasn't changed? I for one think so and in this life I have been through Hell.
Make your life positive regardless of the circumstances because if you believe that you are going to hell, according to some metaphysical stuff that has to do with nuerology and how the brain experiences death, you may very well experience it until the brain is fully dead and the consciousness, Soul or Sirit is no longer bound by and or influenced by a lifetime of material or physical thought patterns.
But who knows, our eternity may be the six or so minutes it takes for the brain to fully die after the body quits breathing and that's the end and we cease to exist.
Attention, the following message has been brought to you by a crazy lady and in no way can be held resposible for it being fact. :) Just a lifetime of reading, delving into different theologies, studying the paranormal and investigating it and just forming my own opinions.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on March 19, 2014, 02:07:53 PM
You are not going to hell baby! Remember G-D made us in the image of G-D, male and female. You are a part of that. The old testament Laws of Moses was used to guide believers before Christ's coming. It also says to follow ALL of the laws or it is an abomination. No one I know has ever followed all the laws prescribed in it. The Mosaic Laws became mute anyway when Jesus came. He himself said all you have to do to enter the kingdom of G-D is to profess a belief in G-D whole heartedly. The laws of Moses became void at that point. :)
Quote from: Duskgirl on March 19, 2014, 02:21:41 PM
I'm not a biblical scholar, but Leviticus is part of the OT's Mosaic Law (aka: the law) which was given to the Jewish people -- unless you are of the Jewish faith, the Law isn't applicable to you: Christians are saved through faith in Jesus (read the book of Galation (sp?) -- only four chapters, really short); it's comforting to me, at least. :)
Law is for ever. Torah is the basis for everything. I don't personally believe Jesus is the messiah, there's not even one prophecy in the jewish bible, the tanakh that would clearly point out that messiah will be G-d in the flesh, who will die for our sins and if we believe in him our sins will be forgiven. No. It's not there.
Torah was given to the jewish nation, but it's set of divine laws, the only revelation a human being ever received from the Creator. I believe the rest of the world should keep at least the 7 Noahide laws.
Torah doesn't say to keep all or you're an abomination, it's christian mis-quotation that leads people away from Torah. The notion of keeping all or keeping none is not in the text. We should strive to become more godly by adhering to the commandments revealed to Moses at Mt. Sinai, but obviously, we may stumble and fall, G-d knows that. But He loves us and He doesn't want to punish us for our sins. "Is it my will to punish the sinner? or that he turns away from his wickedness?"
I don't believe hell exists, simply because G-d is altruistic and good, that's why we should love us, because He loved us first.
Psalm 119:152 "From long ago I have known your testimonies, that You have established them forever."
Leviticus 3:17 "It is a law forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.."
Leviticus 6:18 "it is a permanent law throughout all your generations.."
Leviticus 6:22 "by an eternal ordinance it shall be entirely offered.."
Leviticus 7:36 "it is an eternal law for their generations."
Leviticus 16:34 "Now this is to you an everlasting ordinance.."
Leviticus 16:29 "This is to you a permanent law.."
Numbers 19:21 "So it is a law forever for them.."
I believe in both Heaven and Hell, and Jesus unconditional love for us, and the way He sees and values our hearts, and especially when our hearts are close to Him. I also believe there is an Adversary with malice for everyone. But we have a saviour that gets us out. I do not believe that trans sends anyone to Hell. But what we do with it is important. We need more than anyone to be powers of example of compassion, tolerance, purity, all that is good and wholesome, for a world that is falling apart, steeped in pain of broken hearts and marrages and relationships and filled with all manner of addictive behaviours.
Sounds like you are non of the negs and all of the goods. But Christ's payment on the Cross is the Big Time, and we are not going to Hell, only if we reject His love and salvation.
Again, my very pentacostal theology here. And experience - I have seen a lot of stuff over the years, interventions, intercessions, wild things, and also things that are not very nice. And through all Christ has been my Hero and continues to intervene - POST TRANSITION - so He sure hasn't left.
But fear, which kept me bound and in the closet for over 50 years, tries to mess with most of us, and must be exposed for the lies it is usually based on.
No hell for trans, not if they are sincerely following Jesus. For those that disagree -tis your right, no judgement here, but it doesn't fit my experiences.... I came from that place and moved to the centrality of the cross. And having seen what I have seen I have a strong desire for all to find Christ and freedom from fear of the next world.
God Bless.
Quote from: Satinjoy on March 25, 2014, 06:07:54 PM
I believe in both Heaven and Hell, and Jesus unconditional love for us, and the way He sees and values our hearts, and especially when our hearts are close to Him. I also believe there is an Adversary with malice for everyone.
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and
create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. Adversary i.e. satan in the christian meaning does not exist. Every evil and every good in this world comes from ONE power, that is G-d.
G-d might use angels as adversaries in our life, which may contribute something positive in the bigger picture, like in the story of Balaam where satan was an absolute
blessing trying to change Balaam's ways. Satan is a blessing.
There's a story recalled in two books of the bible that say that G-d incited David to count the jewish people. It is a sin to count jewish people by the way. G-d was testing him. In one book of the bible we read that it was G-d who incited David to do that, and in the other one we read that it was satan who did that. G-d uses angel/s as adversaries for our own good.
Quote from: Satinjoy on March 25, 2014, 06:07:54 PM
[...] Jesus unconditional love for us [...] But we have a saviour that gets us out.
Isaiah 43:11, the word of the Lord says,
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is
no savior.Isaiah 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is
no God;Psalms
Put not your trust in princes,
in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.Quote from: Satinjoy on March 25, 2014, 06:07:54 PM
No hell for trans, not if they are sincerely following Jesus. For those that disagree -tis your right, no judgement here, but it doesn't fit my experiences.... I came from that place and moved to the centrality of the cross. And having seen what I have seen I have a strong desire for all to find Christ and freedom from fear of the next world.
Depending on our own experiences/beliefs/opinions is pointless. It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what the Bible says... There's thousand upon a thousand of muslims/jehovah witnesses/mormons who will tell you the same thing, "Muhammad saved my life/Joseph Smith is a true prophet of G-d" blahblah.
When it comes to miracles and wonders:
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you
a sign or wonder, 2and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place (
my addition: think resurrection) and the prophet says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
I will not debate you here... you would have to experience what I did, or I would have to experience what you do, to fully understand. I know Jesus is who He said He is for me. I would have been dead a long time ago from alcohol with His direct intervention, many times. Our opponent would have permitted me to drink or incented me to drink and therefor to die. God however takes over and instead of bending my elbow, I walked away, and not under my own strength, and got my body to an AA meeting where it was safe. Tomorrow will be 30 years without a drink and I came from a condemned apartment building in Harlem walking 70 blocks sometimes to get to an AA meeting. We have differing experiences.
But I would like to hear your view how trans affects your relationship to the Most High, assuming the heart of the law is fully kept...
The debate about Jesus, I do not wish to engage here with you, and I understand and respect your passion. But helping the OP is a different matter. For me, thinking the dysphoria would damn me put me right on the edge of total destruction and heartbreaking insanity. For a birth anomoly... does not fit the totality of scripture there. Not for something like this.
With respect....
Take it from me as a former missionary and priest who effectively used almost all of the gifts of the spirit in Christ's name to serve people: healing, prophecy, tongues, casting out demons, love (the chief of these being loved): God will never punish you, in this life or the life to come, for being the person he created.
Moreover, no person, be they parent, priest, prophet, minister, evangelist, bishop, etc etc, can tell you who you were created to be. That is written in your heart. It is between you and God.
That said, scripture is very clear about the punishment for people who hurt people for the way God made them. Or who hurt children for any reason. The kingdom of heaven has no place for bullies or bigots.
End of sermon.
P.S
I extensively studied Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, etc, and they all agree. No hell for being who the creator made us to be.
Quote from: MadelineB on March 26, 2014, 09:17:15 PM
Take it from me as a former missionary and priest who effectively used almost all of the gifts of the spirit in Christ's name to serve people: healing, prophecy, tongues, casting out demons, love (the chief of these being loved): God will never punish you, in this life or the life to come, for being the person he created.
Moreover, no person, be they parent, priest, prophet, minister, evangelist, bishop, etc etc, can tell you who you were created to be. That is written in your heart. It is between you and God.
That said, scripture is very clear about the punishment for people who hurt people for the way God made them. Or who hurt children for any reason. The kingdom of heaven has no place for bullies or bigots.
End of sermon.
P.S
I extensively studied Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, etc, and they all agree. No hell for being who the creator made us to be.
Well said Madeline, and to the point.
Quote from: MadelineB on March 26, 2014, 09:17:15 PMP.S
I extensively studied Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, etc, and they all agree. No hell for being who the creator made us to be.
QuoteQuran (40:71-72) - When the fetters and the chains shall be on their necks; they shall be dragged Into boiling water, then in the fire shall they be burned
Quran (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise
Quote from: crowcrow223 on March 27, 2014, 02:45:24 PM
Crowcrow, Inshallah! The blessed prophet did indeed declare the fate of the disbeliever. However, never were transgender people suggested to be infidel. In fact many leading imams and ayatollahs have written tolerantly of transwomen, and use the holy book as justification for our inclusion.
Imams and ayatollahs' opinions pretty much mean nothing. People are fallible, it does not matter what we say.
Quote"Allah curses a woman who wears a men's clothing and a man who wears a woman's dress."( Abu Dawud)
So what's your point? That BEING transgender is not a sin? of course it's not, you can't help what you are. But whenever a person asks a question, am I going to hell if I'm transgender or does G-d hate me if I'm transgender, I can guarantee you that what they're really asking is "does G-d mind if I
proceed with my transition?".
OK CrowCrow, I won't debate a person about their beliefs or lack thereof. If you do not feel oppressed by your belief, I am glad. But for those who do live within faith systems, it is important to know that the major faiths are not necessarily anti-trans; there are leaders and congregations in all faiths that are very trans-positive, and there is real hope that those numbers will increase in time. There are also transphobes in all religions as well as in the atheist and agnostic communities. All belief, whether religious or non-religious, is subjective and subject to human interpretation. So it matters that we engage positively with believers and help them to adopt healthy opinions towards trans people and transition.
Though the Hadith are not canonical in the same way that the Koran is, and are by their nature subject to the interpretation and clarification of scholars and holy men, they are an important part of Islamic tradition. The particular Hadith you quoted itself could (and has been) used to support transition for transsexual individuals: it would be accursed for a woman (such as myself) to dress as a man... the way G*d made me, a trans woman, it caused me suffering when I dressed like a man... when I finally dressed in accordance with the way G*d made me, a woman, I was no longer accursed. Transition is a process of lifting the curse of dysphoria by learning to be true to who we are.
Hadiths are not just a part of islam, since if you reject them, you are an apostate, and I presume you're aware what's the consequences of anyone leaving their islamic faith.
Your interpretation of this hadith is quite far-fetched, and very biased.
It does not matter if muslims accept trans-people, it does not matter if holy men accept them, as both muslims, holymen, even jews and rabbis, they are all HUMAN, which means FALLIBLE. Even if we gained acceptance of EVERY religious person in this world, we HAVE to ignore it, and absorb the knowledge from the Torah, which is my biased opinion, as I believe this is the only revelation a human being has ever received from the Creator. but even Qur'an affirmed the Torah, plus Hadiths condemn cross-dressing.
I remember one rabbi say that we are obliged to take the simple and basic meaning of the commandments, just as it is written.
I hope G-d really sees us as the gender we feel we are, and hence we're not sinning against Him. I really have a sincere hope of that.
Quote from: crowcrow223 on March 30, 2014, 10:24:25 AM
I hope G-d really sees us as the gender we feel we are, and hence we're not sinning against Him. I really have a sincere hope of that.
I am glad you put that into your posts. It changes the entire emotional impact of your contributions, in a good way.
I have to look at it - and I am conservative, albeit Christian but we have many common grounds - I have to look at it from the point of view of a compassionate G-d, of a G-d that knew before we were born who we would be, what our challenges would be, everything. I do not believe He would condemn any of us to a life of pain, anguish, fear, self condemnation for trying our hardest to please Him and falling short, of lonliness, of living a lie to ourselves by pretending to be something else out of a motive from either fear, a desire to please, pride of legalism, a hundred motives... but we are to live for G-d with all of our heart, soul, mind. I look at the fruit of being transgender. There is pain, but there are those we help through our courage, there is lack of deception- and deception is bad- when we live an honest life. For many of us including myself that suffer from Gender Dysphoria, choice is between agony, extreme depression with the potential to hurt ourselves and thereby everyone we love, and lifetime loneliness, or living a life of truth without deception and walking free.
For me, the answer to your question and hope is yes. I came to that conclusion by way of pain. I tried to live legalistically believing that trans was condemned and I could not, and everything I see that is about that condemnation does not appear to come from what I believe is the heart of G-d.
Living in fear paves the way for all sorts of sadness and destructive thinking. I do not believe we need fear hell by being trans, but I do believe that as transpeople of faith we are called to a very high standard of example, so that we do not get lumped in with the liscivioius or carnal, but seen for who we are, people of differing gender living as best we can for our G-d, just like everyone else of faith.
This I would assume we can agree upon. I don't believe I am sinning against G-d, and I am going to help as many people as I can, trans and non trans, to escape evil and alcoholism and addictions of all kinds, and find the One who made us to His purpose, glory, and pleasure, for He created us to be with Him, for eternity, because we love Him.
I hope this is helpful to you. G-d knows the real deal. In my heart, I know He is with me, and you too. All of us. We just have to reach out to Him and ask for His presence, and for Him to open our eyes and our hearts to His scriptures and to see inside them straight to the heart and mind of G-d. Its about our desire to please Him and draw closer to Him.
Once again, I strongly believe and in my specific case I know that trans is a birth anomoly. No condemnation for this. I was born this way. My body and mind is not the same as a "normal" birth male. I have qualities of both male and female, physically and mentally, from birth. And testosterone turned on me, I am not compatible with it. It makes me very painfully crazy and it probably isnt physically good for me either.
Those who condemn us often don't have a clue what we deal with or face daily. They think from the point of view of a person that does not have the dysphoria, and then condemn that which they do not understand, with no regard for other people's pain. That is unfortunate to say the least.
Peace to all.
I loved reading your post. It is so, so true.
If it wasn't for me being transsexual, I probably wouldn't believe in G-d. To be perfectly honest, I used to think and I still kind of do, that it was G-d who made my transition happen, transition and everything. It may sound odd, but if I were to brush all of it off with saying "oh it's just a coincidence" I'd have to be mad. Seriously mad. It all points out to someone behind it, someone working behind the scenes, someone who has a plan for me, compassion, and love.
However, there will always be this hint of doubt whether I am condemned or not, but maybe I am not supposed to ever know? I noticed, being a believer & transsexual, really stops me from jumping into wrong conclusions and judging others, as sometimes, in anger, when I fall, I may judge others, who are or aren't religious, and then I always remind myself "and who the actual f* is saying that? a ->-bleeped-<-? wake-up honey, you ain't better".
I just hope one day I'll be able to fully enjoy my life, look in the mirror, accept myself, love myself, which is directly connected to me getting all my surgeries done, and I am hoping G-d will help me raise the funds & will guide me to undergo surgeries safely. Even though I do not deserve it, I am extremely full of hope one day I will feel complete.
Love it. Makes me feel good.
I have that same, deep fear of Hell. But it is fear based, not faith based, it is buy in to those who persecuted me or others for not looking and acting like them. The circumstances leading to my acquisition of a shrink and of hormones, and the priceless gift of keeping my wife and having a very close relationship with her- because there is no deception, because I shared the scariest thing in my life to her and risked everything, and mostly because it was a G-d created and appointed marrage - these I believe are gifts from above. Some given perhaps out of the wisdom of G-d knowing that the alternatives would be disasterous, so He allows it because it is necessary in the preservation of my soul and out of grace to my wife. Part of my choice to remain preop is to keep her from being conflicted. As long as I still have the thing and live steath looking like a male, she is safe from the conflict of perceiving girl on girl. I remain deeply attracted to and in love with her. My feelings are the same as my birth feelings as far as orientations.
It becomes about trusting Him, faith, producing good fruit, living pure, living true, looking up and not down.
I was never ever able in my life to look in the mirror and say "I love you" until I began transition. I could only say "I repect you" in pretransition. Now I say it to the mirror, and I mean it. I smile when I see the woman within, I smile when disrobed, and I get that nothing happens without purpose and that by being trans, like you, I am drawn closer to God and more in line with His will for my life as I refuse to judge others, even the testosterone driven folks that hurt me, because they are clueless and could not see through their own hormones to know the truth, that but for the grace of G-d, they would be the same as we are, and they just have a different path and will answer for their thoughts and actions someday, as will all of us.
Peace, happiness and best, to everyone that posted and continues to post here. May our G-d take pleasure in what has been spoken and honor the desires of our hearts to please Him as we live with our unique natures. I think much good can come from this thread for those similarly conflicted and living in fear. We have enough to overcome without that added burden.
So glad you posted, and everyone else too.
:)
I couldn't add a thing to what Satinjoy has said here other than the fact that I share her mindset 100% and so Amen!
No.
Its not who you are. Its how you live.
What gets me is that our whole accepted preconceived concepts of Hell are taken from a book that came long after Christ was gone called Dante's Inferno. You know, the "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here", the seven levels and so on. Somehow this worked its way into beliefs as actual Hell. If you read what Christ said of Hell and the fiery pit, a lot of people believe that He was talking about the burning trash pits that were kept on the outside of towns in those areas and those days in which murderers, thieves and other non do gooders bodies would end up instead of a proper burial. Therefore the sinners ended up in the fiery pits. On the other hand, the "gnashing of teeth", "praying for death but death will not come", anguish, emotional pain, regret, fear an all the other negativities sort of sounds like this life doesn't it? Even when we are seemingly happy in life we are only one step from tragedy that will shatter the illusion of happiness.
As for the men wearing women's clothes and women wearing men's clothing, what is the whole context of the writings? If a man that is truly a man inside and out but dons female clothing to protect his own skin because of cowardice or a woman that is female inside and out and dons men's clothing for whatever selfish gains then no these things are not right. But when it comes to being transgendered and being spiritually a female or male and physically the opposite but wearing the proper clothing and exercising self expression that fits the Spirit that God created and knew before the body was formed by nature in the womb, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Even throughout history different cultures and civilizations have even accepted us as we are. It's just that we are living in a an extremely materialistic time in which everything is material even our perceptions of our Spirits or has to be material in order to make sense to the majority of us. Just think of the descriptions of Heaven and most people think they will be walking on streets of gold dressed in elaborate robes or clothing looking like they do in their physical life or even in their physical bodies. My mom who was a stout Pentecostal believed this way but I could never really wrap my mind around it though.
Like I said I am not a traditional Christian but do follow Christ's teachings and do believe in One Creator that we call God. Do I believe in a heaven and hell, most certainly but I think we experience these concepts many times throughout out life time and will continue to experience them until we are Spiritually mature enough for whatever else we go on to, in a Spiritual sense of course.
Jess -- you have expressed my personal feelings and beliefs much better than I was able to here. Like you I am not "mainline" in my Christian beliefs and hold your perspective of history and the ideas of social actions being in the Bible for practical reasons as well as divinely given.
Yeah Vicky, I just can't seem to follow a lot of mainstream thoughts when it comes to Spirituality or religion or science or pretty much anything else. Everything even beliefs and thought processes have changed many times throughout history. Science for instance and the belief that the Earth was the center of the universe and everything else revolved around this one insignificant point in space. Oh yeah, did I mention that we used to believe that the Earth was flat at one time in our perceptions? Galileo had to renounce his revelations that the Earth and the wanderers in the sky at certain times revolved around the Sun or be condemned as heretic in the eyes of the church and society. Here we are 500 some odd years later and we know and have known the truth that the planets and the Earth revolve around the sun instead of the other way around and that the sun revolves around the Galaxy and so on.
A lot of times like my mom, we end up looking upon Spirituality as a means of punishments and rewards instead of evolving our own consciousness to a higher level of understanding. I have read, studied and asked questions from other belief systems. The main concept that I have come to realize it's not about punishments and rewards. It's not about who is more faithful or who believes more in one or the other. It's not about reincarnation or one life or atheism for that matter because there are truths to all of it. Take atheism and reincarnation or when you die you go to heaven or hell for instance, all are true. When I, Jessica dies, what used to be Jessica goes into the ground to become part of the materialistic world from which this body came from. What happens to that part of myself that is sitting here writing this posts, that very energy that allows me to think with my brain, keeps me breathing, animates my limbs and digits and is possibly Devine in nature and cannot be destroyed? I really don't know and no one else can really tell me with any kind of proof. Faith tells me my consciousness will be unbridled from this body to go on to another existence whether it be another physical life, Heaven, Hell or just an existence as pure intelligent energy. But what happens isn't the most important dynamic of human Spirituality. In my opinion and belief it is to try to understand the mind of God and to actually try to make a conscious connection with that Devine Entity. I say try because I don't think anyone can truly understand or comprehend but trying is our purpose. That children die, wars happen, many unjustices are committed, prayers go unanswered and that life isn't fair. It's not supposed to be but rather physical life is something to be overcome and to live a Spiritual existence in a material world. It's not God that causes all the strife on this planet, it is mankind and since we have Freewill it is up to mankind to change the conditions on this planet. I tend to look at being Trans as a gift with mixed emotions about it. It truly has put me through hell and emotional torment like nothing else that I have experienced but with a turn of the card it has allowed me to expand consciousness to the point of realizing that who I was born as is just a temporary existence but who I was created by God as is possibly eternal.
So, in relation to the original post: Me being Trans has expanded my concept of Spirituality, opened my mind to greater possibilities, made me extremely accepting of everyone whether they share my same views or not and allowed me to experience my own consciousness by it not being in synch with my physical body so how can I be punished eternally by a Loving Creator for that? For me it has been more or less a Spiritual kick in the butt. On the other hand it has caused me great suffering, non acceptance by the rest of society, emotional pain and turmoil, in the past a great loathing and hate for myself, anger, loneliness, depression and many more negatives. It has allowed me to see that society doesn't have to accept me and I don't have to accept society but I do have to accept myself for who I am. So in relation to Hell, I have been there already and still am at times but self acceptance makes it a little more bearable. So to me it has been a great Spiritual gift but a really bad curse simultaneously and just another obstacle to overcome to the best of my abilities.
Quote from: Vicky on March 19, 2014, 12:44:19 PM
That passage from Leviticus is a straw grabbed at by the group that wants to use it. It was intended for a specific group of ancient Hebrew's though, and is in the context of neighborly dealings which is important for context.
Abomination in the meaning of those passages applies to a clergy class of person, the effect today would be if your pastor has on a wool suit and a polyester pulpit gown, he cannot preach his Sunday sermon! (Great for the congregation since they don't have to pay the dude!)
The abominations related to a death sentence involved clergy folk doing things the other religions' of the times clergy folk did and with the other religion's clergy folk. Firing the renegade clergy was simpler that way. Not good for their retirement prospects.
A couple that relate to non clergy people were the result of inaccurate scientific knowledge that has since been cleared up, ----well sorta cleared up unless you are a creation scientist and not all of them.
I don't believe in the divinity of the bible, but it has many historical accuracy's and many more that were penned way later in history through speculation and control. This person has it spot on, if you want the truth of the matter look into what she is saying, its most accurate to what it means. All in all don't fear hell its not what it seems. With the Bible you really have to look in between what you read and study history in that time period. It was devised as a way of keeping those in that region inline but has been carried over to all places of the earth and preached with a distorted meaning. I am in your same shoes and wish for you to find the comfort that you deserve. All it takes is some open eyes =)
No being transgender is not a sin. It is just another gift from God. Just try to be the best person you can be.
I'm agnostic so I have no real horse in this race but, maybe someone of faith can explain this:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)
Did the coming of the Messiah signal the end of the OT and make a new covenant or do the laws of the OT still apply? Or do they apply only to Jews and not Gentiles?
Quote from: Wynternight on August 06, 2014, 05:46:47 PM
I'm agnostic so I have no real horse in this race but, maybe someone of faith can explain this:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (NIV, Matthew 5:17–18)
Did the coming of the Messiah signal the end of the OT and make a new covenant or do the laws of the OT still apply? Or do they apply only to Jews and not Gentiles?
Wynternight. Take the bible with a grain of salt. 1 it was translated from the original and word could have been ore meanings of those parrables misinterpreted. 2 there could be a whole different meaning to the bible in its original text. remember the Bible Code?
I personally believe that life is hell. Yeah there are good times and you can find happiness but there is so much suffering and losing people we love and so on. But I believe in reincarnation so that is the way I perceive it.
With the Bible it is just a history book of Spiritual evolution and a record of how people's perceptions have changed from a vengeful spiteful God that pits men against one another to a loving God that all we have to do is ask for forgiveness and it's given by a loving God.
try to take the bible literally word for word and it will confuse you so much between Genesis and the Book of Revelation. But look at it like an historical document on how our Perceptions have changed toward a Creator and it seems to make a lot of sense.
Quote from: Jess42 on August 06, 2014, 06:08:52 PM
Wynternight. Take the bible with a grain of salt. 1 it was translated from the original and word could have been ore meanings of those parrables misinterpreted. 2 there could be a whole different meaning to the bible in its original text. remember the Bible Code?
I personally believe that life is hell. Yeah there are good times and you can find happiness but there is so much suffering and losing people we love and so on. But I believe in reincarnation so that is the way I perceive it.
With the Bible it is just a history book of Spiritual evolution and a record of how people's perceptions have changed from a vengeful spiteful God that pits men against one another to a loving God that all we have to do is ask for forgiveness and it's given by a loving God.
try to take the bible literally word for word and it will confuse you so much between Genesis and the Book of Revelation. But look at it like an historical document on how our Perceptions have changed toward a Creator and it seems to make a lot of sense.
Not a good answer!
Christ didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it as the answer for mankind's abysmal failure under the law in which the requirement for failure to keep the law perfectly was death. This had been signified under the Judaic Law by the sacrifice of a lamb without blemish. Jesus Christ is God's lamb and He acknowledged that the night of His arrest when He prayed saying that he knew what was going to happen to Him and if He wished to He could call a legion of angels and sidestep the whole ugly process, but He said Father, I know to this I have been called, your will be done! He allowed himself to be brutalized unmercifully, beaten and spat on and then nailed to the cross where he willingly gave up His life as an expiation for the sins of all humankind. This being the case, there are those who refuse to acknowledge Him and His sacrifice being sufficient to cover for their own sins and have decided to go it on their own self righteousness, they have in effect decided to be judged according to the law. Hope this clarifies things.
Quote from: Shantel on August 06, 2014, 06:29:07 PM
Not a good answer!
Christ didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it as the answer for mankind's abysmal failure under the law in which the requirement for failure to keep the law perfectly was death. This had been signified under the Judaic Law by the sacrifice of a lamb without blemish. Jesus Christ is God's lamb and He acknowledged that the night of His arrest when He prayed saying that he knew what was going to happen to Him and if He wished to He could call a legion of angels and sidestep the whole ugly process, but He said Father, I know to this I have been called, your will be done! He allowed himself to be brutalized unmercifully, beaten and spat on and then nailed to the cross where he willingly gave up His life as an expiation for the sins of all humankind. This being the case, there are those who refuse to acknowledge Him and His sacrifice being sufficient to cover for their own sins and have decided to go it on their own self righteousness, they have in effect decided to be judged according to the law. Hope this clarifies things.
It really doesn't clarify things for me. Is the Old Testament still valid or did Christ invalidate it with the New? Is accepting Christ all you need to do or do you need to follow the OT? Speaking of: Leviticus only applies to the Tribe of Levi, correct? So only Jews of that tribe needs must follow so that means Gentiles do not?
Quote from: Wynternight on August 06, 2014, 06:50:56 PM
It really doesn't clarify things for me. Is the Old Testament still valid or did Christ invalidate it with the New? Is accepting Christ all you need to do or do you need to follow the OT? Speaking of: Leviticus only applies to the Tribe of Levi, correct? So only Jews of that tribe needs must follow so that means Gentiles do not?
The old testament is valid for those who prefer to disavow Christ and what He did on the cross as sufficient to cover their screw ups. It's no longer followed by those who have accepted Christ, they are no longer under the law. This is a positional thing between man and God, we are still constrained to follow the laws of the land all of which are modeled after the ten commandments, because we are still living in this world with all it's human imperfections. As far as the spiritual aspect goes, once you accept Christ your future beyond this life is sealed and we make an effort to do right by others with a thankful heart and to honor Christ, not that we are by any means perfect. I am a Christian with a Jewish background and though I don't go to church, I am well read in the scriptures and understand the spirit of it fully.
Quote from: Shantel on August 06, 2014, 06:29:07 PM
Not a good answer!
Christ didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it as the answer for mankind's abysmal failure under the law in which the requirement for failure to keep the law perfectly was death. This had been signified under the Judaic Law by the sacrifice of a lamb without blemish. Jesus Christ is God's lamb and He acknowledged that the night of His arrest when He prayed saying that he knew what was going to happen to Him and if He wished to He could call a legion of angels and sidestep the whole ugly process, but He said Father, I know to this I have been called, your will be done! He allowed himself to be brutalized unmercifully, beaten and spat on and then nailed to the cross where he willingly gave up His life as an expiation for the sins of all humankind. This being the case, there are those who refuse to acknowledge Him and His sacrifice being sufficient to cover for their own sins and have decided to go it on their own self righteousness, they have in effect decided to be judged according to the law. Hope this clarifies things.
Amen, Shan! Great answer!
After 5 months, my answer has not changed. If you believe on Jesus 100 percent to get you to heaven, then you're saved. If not, you're damned. It's simple as that.
Quote from: Jess42 on August 06, 2014, 06:08:52 PM
try to take the bible literally word for word and it will confuse you so much between Genesis and the Book of Revelation. But look at it like an historical document on how our Perceptions have changed toward a Creator and it seems to make a lot of sense.
That is the basis for a lot of people's skepticism and disbelief towards the bible.
There are some who take the bible as literal truth, and fail to account for genre in the writing.
It can be argued that the opening of genesis is a theological account of creation, not a literal one. I won't bog things down here but think on this example:
"My love is like a red red rose"
Does that mean that the person you love is green and had thorns? Clearly no.
In the same way, genesis can be examined from this viewpoint. Theologically, I have no issues at all with science, but that's another topic altogether.
The Old Testament can be viewed as an account of how man attempts to be righteous, but fails in doing so. This then points to Jesus Christ on the cross.
Quote from: Vicky on March 19, 2014, 12:44:19 PM
That passage from Leviticus is a straw grabbed at by the group that wants to use it. It was intended for a specific group of ancient Hebrew's though, and is in the context of neighborly dealings which is important for context.
Yes. Thank you. The Old Testament tells stories of early civilisation and the laws men imposed upon them, as well as various parables dealing with the struggle of faith in the face of desolation and despair, and poetic laments and praises. A person of moral standing and good will are going to be most favourable to God, and morality has nothing to do with sexuality or gender. Morality is about doing what is right by your neighbor and not harming or interfering with anyone else's life.
Sure, our bodies have specific designs for specific purposes, and so certain issues can arise when nature is messed with, but the body is also continuously surprising us with anomalies such as the brain developing opposite of the default setting resulting in trans identity, Klinefelter's Syndrome, Autism, and so on. Some people don't even have the cognitive capacity to understand or appreciate spirituality.
So, I'd say you're okay. :) Hell is the state of existence for those who continuously defy all that is good and right, and it's just as "within" as the Kingdom of Heaven. Remember 1st Corinthians: Love is patient, love is kind; it is not jealous. If God is Love, and is the highest force in your life, then Hell is irrelevant.
Wonder if i look at all the crap in the world, if this is not hell
Yes you, like the rest of us are going to hell...
but why wouldn't you want to, all the fun people are there and frankly, heaven just sounds dull :P
I don't think I could handle hell, I'm no good with heat. Is there an icy hell for us northerners? I could dig that. Can I have reincarnation as an option?
Alright, now that I've gotten that out of my system... ^^ I personally believe that if God meant for me to be a woman, then he wouldn't have given me a man's brain. Well, I don't believe in a literal god but I also don't believe that I am supposed to live as a woman.
Quote from: OreSama on August 08, 2014, 08:32:42 AM
I don't think I could handle hell, I'm no good with heat. Is there an icy hell for us northerners?
Well, Dante certainly assumed so. :P
Quote from: sororcaeli on August 08, 2014, 06:45:18 PM
Well, Dante certainly assumed so. :P
Phew, I'm good then.
Quote from: Jo-is-amazing on August 08, 2014, 08:21:01 AM
Yes you, like the rest of us are going to hell...
but why wouldn't you want to, all the fun people are there and frankly, heaven just sounds dull :P
Right? In my Christian days I thought a lot about the portrayal of Heaven as some shining magical kingdom with gold and jewels, and was like,
"that really doesn't sound very appealing, especially for an eternity." I've even heard theories that the people who you loved in this life who
didn't make it would be zapped from your mind while you spend forever in Paradise. That just sounds like some kind of dystopian future society like Brave New World or Logan's Run.
But think about the concept of Hell: it's supposed to be a place of eternal punishment, but punishments are meant to teach you a lesson so that you make a better choice in the future. If you subvert someone to torture indefinitely it no longer serves the purpose of punishment, and the person will not crave the presence of God, but rather have eternal contempt.
We cannot help who we are if it's written in our genes, or is the result of improper development. Why would the great force of Love toss anyone into the Abyss for simply embracing who they are if they've never once harmed another soul or disrespected their own life? It doesn't add up, logically or morally. That's the behaviour of an egotistical, self-centered tyrant; not an omniscient being of love and light.
That's why I cannot subscribe to that belief system. I appreciate the parables and the ethical teachings, but none of them are exclusive to Christianity. Christianity didn't invent morality or decency. It simply became an organised vessel for them which seems to only be evident with certain people while others use it as justification for oppressive behaviour.
All religions have a common message, but it's people who decide what it actually is. No one is good, bad, right or wrong for whatever they believe. It only becomes problematic when those beliefs start to interfere with personal liberty through threats and fear. If one religion has been morphed into a fear-mongering force of hate then I'm not about to give it any more of my time and energy. The threat of Hell should be anyone's first sign to run away as fast as possible.
I'm always amused by other drivers who pull out into traffic from a side street right in front of an oncoming car whose driver is forced to decelerate or wishbone the other car. They routinely do this without looking both ways and assume that if they don't acknowledge the existence of the other car, that they are faintly suddenly aware of, that it will not be there. This is equally as amusing and as deadly as those who say I don't believe in God, the bible, heaven, hell or eternity. Somehow if you don't believe those things then they don't exist? Forest Gump was right! :D
Quote from: Shantel on August 08, 2014, 07:35:51 PM
I'm always amused by other drivers who pull out into traffic from a side street right in front of an oncoming car whose driver is forced to decelerate or wishbone the other car. They routinely do this without looking both ways and assume that if they don't acknowledge the existence of the other car, that they are faintly suddenly aware of, that it will not be there. This is equally as amusing and as deadly as those who say I don't believe in God, the bible, heaven, hell or eternity. Somehow if you don't believe those things then they don't exist? Forest Gump was right! :D
That's actually a really good point. Belief is just what you make of everything to the best of your ability or willingness to understand. I could say Australia doesn't exist because I've never been there, and tell those who say they
have been there (or actually live there) that they are insane. That doesn't make Australia any less real.
On the other hand, nobody should be expected to believe in something that doesn't resonate with them. We're all on our own journeys, and truth is self-evident in time. Also, the mind is very easily programmable using the right words (Neural Linguistic Programming), so anyone can be swayed unconsciously that something is real or that they are being told a truth. That's the problem with any religious system whether it's spiritual or political, and politics can get very religious. Someone is always insisting that their understanding of things is the right one, but how we each believe is really nobody's business.
The Bible is clear "For God so loved the world he sent his only Son so that ALL who believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life."
Quote from: BlonT on August 08, 2014, 07:59:42 AM
Wonder if i look at all the crap in the world, if this is not hell
Some people actually believe that living on Earth is hell and that Heaven does come later based solely on that idea.
Quote from: OreSama on August 08, 2014, 08:32:42 AM
I don't think I could handle hell, I'm no good with heat. Is there an icy hell for us northerners?
There's a Black Metal song in there somewhere. :D
Quote from: Laura Squirrel on August 08, 2014, 09:37:23 PM
There's a Black Metal song in there somewhere. :D
*cue Abbath crab walk*
Quote from: Hopeful cutie on March 19, 2014, 10:27:12 AM
I really don't consider myself religious, but my parents are very much so and it influences my life, I certainly cannot simply not think about it. The question is, if hell is real am I not going there for being transgendered? The bible does say a man or woman wearing the other genders clothes is an abomination. I'm so worried about this. :(
The Bible also says that eating shrimp is an abomination. And pork. And wearing clothes made from multiple fabrics. And lust, and jealousy, and divorce, and not having a parapet on your roof, and a hundred other things.
But I don't see people going around and crusading for these things to be declared sinful and shunned and that those who do them are going to hell.
Humans are the ones who decided that homosexuality and ->-bleeped-<- were sins worthy of damning someone to hell while the others weren't, not God. God declares that even if you keep the entire Law and yet stumble at one point, you're guilty of breaking all of the Law. (James 2:8-13). So if you're going to hell, so are they.
In my Christian studies, I've come to understand that the important thing is to love our neighbors as ourselves. For when we clothe the poor, feed the hungry, give shelter to the homeless, and visit the sick and the imprisoned, we do it for God. (Matthew 25:34-45) And also, the important thing, important above all else, is to forgive others, and to not judge them. For when we forgive others, we too will be forgiven. And when we do not judge others, neither will we be judged.
Again... humans are the ones who are judging you specifically for your sin. But according to Christian law, they're just as guilty as you are. They just don't want to admit it, and want to pretend that they're somehow better by putting themselves up on a pedestal of righteousness. But they're not better, and they're not more righteous. Nobody is.
We can not judge. All we can do is forgive others for their inevitable shortcomings because we recognize that we have them too, and therefore likewise hope to be forgiven ourselves.
That's my life mantra, and what I've come to see my faith as being all about.
^^^THIS^^^
My sister put up something religious that supported my transgender status. I used it to my advantage, but not in a negative way. She got mad and said I twisted it. After a little minor research of my own it looks like God doesn't care about gender one bit which means that transgender has nothing to do with religion. I don't believe I'm going to hell or anything, but basically religion can mean anything you want it to mean.
Quote from: awilliams1701 on August 08, 2014, 09:56:42 PM
but basically religion can mean anything you want it to mean.
Except for the hardcore religious. Any other interpretations aside from their own are quickly dismissed. I did have a great aunt, though, who used to be a pastor, and I talked to her about my beliefs. Surprisingly, she didn't refute anything I said, and basically told me that she's just set in her ways. She recognised my need for complexity and scrutiny in spiritual matters and just said simplicity is enough for her. Because, ultimately, the details are there just for the intellect to make sense of things. Beyond that the divine connection is the same no matter what methods we go about it, or how we define it.
There is no greater insult to God than to deny Him sacrificing His own Son for your redemption, also known as "dying without accepting Christ". That is the ultimate sin. Being transgender, homosexual, black, white, blue, a murderer, a pastor, a nurse, a fish, or anything else will, in no way, affect your salvation.
Quite frankly, if I sacrificed my only child for someone else (I wouldn't) and they were all like "meh, nah, I'll be ok"... I would do my best to make sure they were not ok. ;)
Toodles from TN,
Ales
I doubt that a place called Hell actually exists, unless you are talking about Hell, Michigan. For that matter, I'm not convinced that a god exists as depicted in the Bible. Even if such a god does exist, I doubt that anyone would suffer infinite punishment for a finite crime. It is simply not a logical. A god who is supposedly omniscient would know this.
I don't think Hell in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. I think it was just a scare tactic to try to control people's behavior. The boogie man will get you if you're not good.
Quote from: VeryGnawty on August 13, 2014, 04:45:21 AM
I doubt that a place called Hell actually exists, unless you are talking about Hell, Michigan. For that matter, I'm not convinced that a god exists as depicted in the Bible. Even if such a god does exist, I doubt that anyone would suffer infinite punishment for a finite crime. It is simply not a logical. A god who is supposedly omniscient would know this.
I don't think Hell in the Bible is meant to be taken literally. I think it was just a scare tactic to try to control people's behavior. The boogie man will get you if you're not good.
I don't think the word Hell is mentioned in the bible, but it's alluded to by Christ in other terms, smart people pay attention and hedge their bets concerning such a place. I'd prefer to trust Christ rather than engage in speculation with someone who can't walk on water or bring a man four days dead and putrid back to life.
That's the beauty of interpretation. To some, Hell is fire and screaming. To others, it might simply be a darkness in isolation from God. To JW's it's simply the grave. To me, it's where you want to take yourself in this life, and whether or not you want to find "the Kingdom of Heaven within". To ignore your own divine origin and to deny spiritual ecstasy in the here and now is to remain in the frequency of the mundane. No matter which way you want to see it, it begins and ends with you.
I thought this was kind of entertaining and a clever way to put her point across, called the one minute sermon!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGnEuGwvXqU
Dueteronomy 22:12 states that you are most certainly going to hell. Not because you are trans*, but because you have failed to sew the right amount of tassels in to your clothing. Deuteronomy is the same chapter that says cross dressers are sinning. Until people are willing to cut a womans hands off if they touch testicles that don't belong to their husband, stone witches to death, wear no mixed textiles and keep kosher, they have absolutely no right to tell you that you're going to hell, because they are too. You know when the church was founded, Peter decided we didn't have to follow the laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. People should stop picking and choosing what counts as a sin.
I drank milk with breakfast this morning which included bacon. Am I roasting in hellfire for all eternity?
Quote from: Wynternight on August 13, 2014, 10:42:41 PM
I drank milk with breakfast this morning which included bacon. Am I roasting in hellfire for all eternity?
We'll put you on the terrace above the weakest furnace overlooking Pat Robertson's personal suite.
Quote from: Yarngeek on August 13, 2014, 10:30:32 PM
Dueteronomy 22:12 states that you are most certainly going to hell. Not because you are trans*, but because you have failed to sew the right amount of tassels in to your clothing. Deuteronomy is the same chapter that says cross dressers are sinning. Until people are willing to cut a womans hands off if they touch testicles that don't belong to their husband, stone witches to death, wear no mixed textiles and keep kosher, they have absolutely no right to tell you that you're going to hell, because they are too. You know when the church was founded, Peter decided we didn't have to follow the laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. People should stop picking and choosing what counts as a sin.
"The word of sin is restriction. O man! refuse not thy wife, if she will! O lover, if thou wilt, depart! There is no bond that can unite the divided but love: all else is a curse. Accursed! Accursed be it to the aeons! Hell." — Liber al vel Legis 1:41
No sweetheart no hell for you, I am a Christian and am pretty religious but it took me til I turned 30 in March to realize I wasn't going to hell. And I am close to my parents right now, but I am working on breaking those relationships, I thinking am just going to tell my mom, I am going to start hrt like in the next month, so it will become obvious within 6 months to a year,luckily I make a lot of money so I can plan for moving and stuff but even if I didn't make a lot of money, I would indeed still follow my own path. It will hurt, but just tell them that you have seen therapist, and if you don't transition you'll probably end up dead. That if they want you in thier lives to accept who you are, if not it will hurt but you will have to break those relationships, if not you will have to deal with intolerance until they pass away.
Quote from: Wynternight on August 13, 2014, 10:42:41 PM
I drank milk with breakfast this morning which included bacon. Am I roasting in hellfire for all eternity?
LoL I can hear you crackling now! >:-) :icon_peace:
Quote from: Wynternight on August 13, 2014, 10:42:41 PM
I drank milk with breakfast this morning which included bacon. Am I roasting in hellfire for all eternity?
lol, the Bible didn't even say not to eat bacon for moral reasons, it said it for health reasons which aren't a problem anymore. Which makes you think, if that one part is outdated what about the rest?
Quote from: OreSama on August 14, 2014, 10:56:59 AM
lol, the Bible didn't even say not to eat bacon for moral reasons, it said it for health reasons which aren't a problem anymore. Which makes you think, if that one part is outdated what about the rest?
It was done to prevent the Israelites from getting trichinosis which is common in hogs, now we have the FDA oversight for what that's worth and an admonition to always cook pork well. The Israelites were also admonished not to eat any fish without scales which is because those kinds eliminate urine through their skin like dogfish and are considered unclean. That's why some fish and chips places still using dogfish soak the meat in vinegar before cooking.
Quote from: Hopeful cutie on March 19, 2014, 10:27:12 AM
I really don't consider myself religious, but my parents are very much so and it influences my life, I certainly cannot simply not think about it. The question is, if hell is real am I not going there for being transgendered? The bible does say a man or woman wearing the other genders clothes is an abomination. I'm so worried about this. :(
I do not think you will go to hell specifically for being transgender. I am Catholic, so I do believe in mortal sin, but transgender is not a sin. Listen to your doctors. Being transgender is a medical condition. However you treat it with medication or therapy. Religious people including clergy are NOT doctors to treat a medical condition. Jesus said peace I give you, my peace I leave you, and that is exactly what he wants for you, that you have peace with yourself! God bless!
Quote from: Carrie Liz on August 08, 2014, 09:50:17 PM
The Bible also says that eating shrimp is an abomination. And pork. And wearing clothes made from multiple fabrics. And lust, and jealousy, and divorce, and not having a parapet on your roof, and a hundred other things.
But I don't see people going around and crusading for these things to be declared sinful and shunned and that those who do them are going to hell.
Humans are the ones who decided that homosexuality and ->-bleeped-<- were sins worthy of damning someone to hell while the others weren't, not God. God declares that even if you keep the entire Law and yet stumble at one point, you're guilty of breaking all of the Law. (James 2:8-13). So if you're going to hell, so are they.
In my Christian studies, I've come to understand that the important thing is to love our neighbors as ourselves. For when we clothe the poor, feed the hungry, give shelter to the homeless, and visit the sick and the imprisoned, we do it for God. (Matthew 25:34-45) And also, the important thing, important above all else, is to forgive others, and to not judge them. For when we forgive others, we too will be forgiven. And when we do not judge others, neither will we be judged.
Again... humans are the ones who are judging you specifically for your sin. But according to Christian law, they're just as guilty as you are. They just don't want to admit it, and want to pretend that they're somehow better by putting themselves up on a pedestal of righteousness. But they're not better, and they're not more righteous. Nobody is.
We can not judge. All we can do is forgive others for their inevitable shortcomings because we recognize that we have them too, and therefore likewise hope to be forgiven ourselves.
That's my life mantra, and what I've come to see my faith as being all about.
lust is a grave sin. Jesus even said so. Jealousy possibly, because envy is one of the seven deadly sins. I feel bad that a lot of trans people are promiscuous, we are called to greater things than that. It's okay to be trans, but respect yourself. God bless!
Here's a video that may help you feel better.. There is so much negativity towards the trans community by some in the church, but once again, its mostly because of a lack of education and understanding.. Here is some very good real information that more and more churches are starting to teach, and it should ease your worries and fear...
You are most certainly a gift from God, don't let the haters make you feel otherwise..!
The first 2-3 minutes is kinda slow, but the rest is very good..
Trangender People and the Church @ CanyonWalkerCo...: http://youtu.be/cV7XJFz_RSM
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 25, 2014, 12:31:11 PM
I feel bad that a lot of trans people are promiscuous, we are called to greater things than that. It's okay to be trans, but respect yourself. God bless!
I am sorry, but where do you get this idea from? Trans people are in no way more promiscuous than heteronormative people at all. Actually body dysphoria often makes relationships and sex challenging, so we actually have a lower rate of promiscuity. Many transwomen resort to sex work because they are disowned by their parents, but I don't believe it's by personal choice.
Quote from: Auroramarianna on August 25, 2014, 06:11:13 PM
I am sorry, but where do you get this idea from? Trans people are in no way more promiscuous than heteronormative people at all. Actually body dysphoria often makes relationships and sex challenging, so we actually have a lower rate of promiscuity. Many transwomen resort to sex work because they are disowned by their parents, but I don't believe it's by personal choice.
I guess you can call me a conservative transgender Catholic. In regards to certain issues I am very open minded. However, I think we are all women, and as women we have to be good Christian women. We should not dress provocatively to attract men. When we make men lust, we are making then fall in mortal sin. However, unlike other Catholics I do believe HRT, and SRS are morally acceptable on the basis that it is a legitimate therapeutic treatment. We should not have sex before marriage. When we marry even if its difficult to find someone to marry us, what matters is that we know our love is pure and holy in the eyes of God. In conclusion, I believe it is okay to be transgender, you just need to be the best person you can be. Before you do anything examine your conscience. Is this okay with God? Remember God loves you.
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 09:32:42 AM
I guess you can call me a conservative transgender Catholic. In regards to certain issues I am very open minded. However, I think we are all women, and as women we have to be good Christian women. We should not dress provocatively to attract men. When we make men lust, we are making then fall in mortal sin. However, unlike other Catholics I do believe HRT, and SRS are morally acceptable on the basis that it is a legitimate therapeutic treatment. We should not have sex before marriage. When we marry even if its difficult to find someone to marry us, what matters is that we know our love is pure and holy in the eyes of God. In conclusion, I believe it is okay to be transgender, you just need to be the best person you can be. Before you do anything examine your conscience. Is this okay with God? Remember God loves you.
Women can dress any damn way they want to; if men can't control their own base instincts that's their fault. Slut or victim shaming won't get you far here.
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 09:32:42 AM
I guess you can call me a conservative transgender Catholic. In regards to certain issues I am very open minded. However, I think we are all women, and as women we have to be good Christian women. We should not dress provocatively to attract men. When we make men lust, we are making then fall in mortal sin. However, unlike other Catholics I do believe HRT, and SRS are morally acceptable on the basis that it is a legitimate therapeutic treatment. We should not have sex before marriage. When we marry even if its difficult to find someone to marry us, what matters is that we know our love is pure and holy in the eyes of God. In conclusion, I believe it is okay to be transgender, you just need to be the best person you can be. Before you do anything examine your conscience. Is this okay with God? Remember God loves you.
I'm not Catholic and I don't believe in mortal sins, but aside from that, I fully agree with you on everything else, and I wish more people would have that mindset.
Quote from: Mark3 on August 25, 2014, 02:58:44 PM
Here's a video that may help you feel better.. There is so much negativity towards the trans community by some in the church, but once again, its mostly because of a lack of education and understanding.. Here is some very good real information that more and more churches are starting to teach, and it should ease your worries and fear...
You are most certainly a gift from God, don't let the haters make you feel otherwise..!
The first 2-3 minutes is kinda slow, but the rest is very good..
Trangender People and the Church @ CanyonWalkerCo...: http://youtu.be/cV7XJFz_RSM
I love Kathy! She is such an amazing woman that has done so much for the LBGT Christian community.
Quote from: Hopeful cutie on March 19, 2014, 10:27:12 AM
I really don't consider myself religious, but my parents are very much so and it influences my life, I certainly cannot simply not think about it. The question is, if hell is real am I not going there for being transgendered? The bible does say a man or woman wearing the other genders clothes is an abomination. I'm so worried about this. :(
Quote from a nun at a Catholic university: "The only hell is loneliness."
Quote from: Wynternight on August 26, 2014, 11:03:53 AM
if men can't control their own base instincts that's their fault.
But who is provoking their instincts? The person who is provoking them is putting the man in a slippery situation. Therefore, being at fault for putting the man in temptation. If you're dressed in a provocative manner, you know exactly what you are doing to men. Why not dress modestly so the guy gets to know you, instead of thinking about your body? I dress cute, I am passable, I don't have to over do it to attract men. It's completely okay to become who you know you are, but you still have to follow what Jesus expects of every female. Transgender is not an exclusion.
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 11:49:39 AM
But who is provoking their instincts? The person who is provoking them is putting the man in a slippery situation. Therefore, being at fault for putting the man in temptation. If you're dressed in a provocative manner, you know exactly what you are doing to men. Why not dress modestly so the guy gets to know you, instead of thinking about your body? I dress cute, I am passable, I don't have to over do it to attract men. It's completely okay to become who you know you are, but you still have to follow what Jesus expects of every female. Transgender is not an exclusion.
Sorry but this is crap. This is victim shaming. No one provokes men but men. They need to control their own damn urges and women need to be allowed to dress as they wish. You are slut shaming and victim blaming and again, this isn't going to go well for you here.
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 11:49:39 AM
But who is provoking their instincts? The person who is provoking them is putting the man in a slippery situation. Therefore, being at fault for putting the man in temptation. If you're dressed in a provocative manner, you know exactly what you are doing to men. Why not dress modestly so the guy gets to know you, instead of thinking about your body? I dress cute, I am passable, I don't have to over do it to attract men. It's completely okay to become who you know you are, but you still have to follow what Jesus expects of every female. Transgender is not an exclusion.
I am so sorry Jaz, but I have to disagree with you on this one. I love miniskirts, high heels, short shorts, tank tops, halter tops and so on. It should interest men to be attracted to me and their instinct to flirt and enjoy the "dance" with me but in no way tempt them to lose judgment in anyway to think they can just take what they want. The whole thing about being and dressing sexy is to pique their interest on you. Makeup, hair, clothing high heels and so on is to get guys interests turned toward you. It is never ever OK for someone to think they can take what they want without being consensual. If they are tempted that bad, I am so sorry Hon, but there is truly something deranged about them.
I want to feel sexy. I want to dress the way I want to dress. It is an invitation but not to taking something I don't want to give freely. It is an invitation to flirt, talk, dance, and so on. I definitely agree with Wynternight on this one. If they don't have self control, what else will they lose control over? No, means no. I know because it happened to me when I was young by a step brother and I was in no way dressed provocatively or anything else. Just looked girly. Funny 'cause I am bi and I like men and women, trans or cis and them or me dressed provocatively or not I have and they have never done anything that wasn't consensual. :o
I just can't buy that it is the woman's fault no matter what. Sorry Jaz. But Hon we are all different and how you want to dress and find a guy and how I want to dress and find a guy is just another personal preference thing. And either way is no excuse for a guy taking what he wants, no matter what.
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 11:49:39 AM
But who is provoking their instincts? The person who is provoking them is putting the man in a slippery situation. Therefore, being at fault for putting the man in temptation. If you're dressed in a provocative manner, you know exactly what you are doing to men. Why not dress modestly so the guy gets to know you, instead of thinking about your body? I dress cute, I am passable, I don't have to over do it to attract men. It's completely okay to become who you know you are, but you still have to follow what Jesus expects of every female. Transgender is not an exclusion.
So is this permission to suck the dick of the next shirtless dude I see?
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 11:49:39 AM
But who is provoking their instincts? The person who is provoking them is putting the man in a slippery situation. Therefore, being at fault for putting the man in temptation. If you're dressed in a provocative manner, you know exactly what you are doing to men. Why not dress modestly so the guy gets to know you, instead of thinking about your body? I dress cute, I am passable, I don't have to over do it to attract men. It's completely okay to become who you know you are, but you still have to follow what Jesus expects of every female. Transgender is not an exclusion.
If you're blaming women for dressing the way they want and suggesting they somehow asked to be raped, please stop now. It's not true. There is no such thing as putting man in temptation. Most rape crime is planned. So that means it has nothing to do with what a woman wears. A man who rapes a woman in bikini will do the same to one who's wearing the burka. Who's at fault? The women who wore somehow provocative clothes? Or the man who used an humiliating way to overpower the woman? And what is provocative clothes anyway? Are you implying a man can justify his crime and mortal sin with what she wore? So what if he considers the burka provocative (which would be btw ridiculous because the burka shows no skin at all)? Oh, then rape is totally justified. It's ridiculous what you're suggesting. Sorry, I won't shut up my mouth. FYI, in India there are lots of women who are raped everyday. Guess what? They don't wear provocative clothes at all and a woman who does will be damned by their society. That doesn't prevent them from being raped. Everyday. Imagine if you had to go through that and when you do open your mouth and tell the authorities, your family, friends, everyone blaming you. Because somehow your inherent state as a woman makes you guilty of whichever sexual advances men make on you, whether you want them or not.
Please read this:
"
Myth: Rape is an impulsive crime. It is an act of sexual gratification.
Fact: 90% of group rapes are planned. 58% of single rapes are planned. 75% of all rapes are planned. Practically every word of this myth can be converted by facts. Impulsive, controllable; as seen above, a majority of rapes are planned. Also, one important emotional payoff for the rapist is to be in control, not out of control. The primary motive displayed by most convicted rapist is aggression, dominance, and anger, NOT sex. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict violence, humiliation, and conquest on a victim."
I cannot believe that in 21st century that there are still people thinking like this.
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 11:49:39 AM
But who is provoking their instincts? The person who is provoking them is putting the man in a slippery situation. Therefore, being at fault for putting the man in temptation. If you're dressed in a provocative manner, you know exactly what you are doing to men. Why not dress modestly so the guy gets to know you, instead of thinking about your body? I dress cute, I am passable, I don't have to over do it to attract men. It's completely okay to become who you know you are, but you still have to follow what Jesus expects of every female. Transgender is not an exclusion.
Some men are attracted to certain women
just because they appear exotic. Just by having darker skin, or by being Asian, you can "provoke their instincts." Do you believe that a woman is still responsible for a man's lust, just because she happens to be Mediterranean, or Romany, or Asian, or whatever? You don't have any control over that. If you can accept that much, how is it any different that a woman suddenly has control over what a man feels about her for the way she dresses? Nobody is responsible for a man's lust except for the man.
I have a hard time agreeing with anything you've said, honestly. Jesus himself actually said very little about sexuality or lust, and all of it was in the context of
adultery, not lust. Four passages in total. I'll cite them if you want.
To the OP, the Bible says all sin is equal. So, even if we were "abominations", that is just as forgivable as a kid who disrespects his parents, or someone who steals, or murders, or whatever. The Christ's sacrificed washed away
all sin; none of it is so bad you will be summarily rejected from heaven no matter what, so long as it's repented, save one: In Matthew 12:31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Quote from: Auroramarianna on August 26, 2014, 02:02:06 PM
If you're blaming women for dressing the way they want and suggesting they somehow asked to be raped, please stop now. It's not true. There is no such thing as putting man in temptation. Most rape crime is planned. So that means it has nothing to do with what a woman wears. A man who rapes a woman in bikini will do the same to one who's wearing the burka. Who's at fault? The women who wore somehow provocative clothes? Or the man who used an humiliating way to overpower the woman? And what is provocative clothes anyway? Are you implying a man can justify his crime and mortal sin with what she wore? So what if he considers the burka provocative (which would be btw ridiculous because the burka shows no skin at all)? Oh, then rape is totally justified. It's ridiculous what you're suggesting. Sorry, I won't shut up my mouth. FYI, in India there are lots of women who are raped everyday. Guess what? They don't wear provocative clothes at all and a woman who does will be damned by their society. That doesn't prevent them from being raped. Everyday. Imagine if you had to go through that and when you do open your mouth and tell the authorities, your family, friends, everyone blaming you. Because somehow your inherent state as a woman makes you guilty of whichever sexual advances men make on you, whether you want them or not.
Please read this:
"Myth: Rape is an impulsive crime. It is an act of sexual gratification.
Fact: 90% of group rapes are planned. 58% of single rapes are planned. 75% of all rapes are planned. Practically every word of this myth can be converted by facts. Impulsive, controllable; as seen above, a majority of rapes are planned. Also, one important emotional payoff for the rapist is to be in control, not out of control. The primary motive displayed by most convicted rapist is aggression, dominance, and anger, NOT sex. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict violence, humiliation, and conquest on a victim."
I cannot believe that in 21st century
that there are still people thinking like this.
No, you guys do not understand. I am not talking about rape, rape is horrible. I am talking about lust being a sin. If you are dressed provocatively, a man will look at you and think you're"hot". That means he's lusting you. He is seeing as an object, a attractive object. This is lust, and it all started with how you were dressed. Lust is a deadly sin. Get it or not, that's all I'm going to say. God bless!
Quote from: Auroramarianna on August 26, 2014, 02:02:06 PM
If you're blaming women for dressing the way they want and suggesting they somehow asked to be raped, please stop now. It's not true. There is no such thing as putting man in temptation. Most rape crime is planned. So that means it has nothing to do with what a woman wears. A man who rapes a woman in bikini will do the same to one who's wearing the burka. Who's at fault? The women who wore somehow provocative clothes? Or the man who used an humiliating way to overpower the woman? And what is provocative clothes anyway? Are you implying a man can justify his crime and mortal sin with what she wore? So what if he considers the burka provocative (which would be btw ridiculous because the burka shows no skin at all)? Oh, then rape is totally justified. It's ridiculous what you're suggesting. Sorry, I won't shut up my mouth. FYI, in India there are lots of women who are raped everyday. Guess what? They don't wear provocative clothes at all and a woman who does will be damned by their society. That doesn't prevent them from being raped. Everyday. Imagine if you had to go through that and when you do open your mouth and tell the authorities, your family, friends, everyone blaming you. Because somehow your inherent state as a woman makes you guilty of whichever sexual advances men make on you, whether you want them or not.
Please read this:
"Myth: Rape is an impulsive crime. It is an act of sexual gratification.
Fact: 90% of group rapes are planned. 58% of single rapes are planned. 75% of all rapes are planned. Practically every word of this myth can be converted by facts. Impulsive, controllable; as seen above, a majority of rapes are planned. Also, one important emotional payoff for the rapist is to be in control, not out of control. The primary motive displayed by most convicted rapist is aggression, dominance, and anger, NOT sex. Sex is used as a weapon to inflict violence, humiliation, and conquest on a victim."
I cannot believe that in 21st century that there are still people thinking like this.
Please cut her some slack Auroramannia. I know where she is coming from and kind of sort of why. :(
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 02:53:46 PM
No, you guys do not understand. I am not talking about rape, rape is horrible. I am talking about lust being a sin. If you are dressed provocatively, a man will look at you and think you're"hot". That means he's lusting you. He is seeing as an object, a attractive object. This is lust, and it all started with how you were dressed. Lust is a deadly sin. Get it or not, that's all I'm going to say. God bless!
This is an area supposed to be free from judgement and self-righteous preaching and moralizing. Many of the people here have been ->-bleeped-<- on their whole lives due to religious people and their holier-than-thou crap and you bring it here with you? I'm blocking you. Your attitude is not wanted here, at least by me.
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 02:53:46 PM
No, you guys do not understand. I am not talking about rape, rape is horrible. I am talking about lust being a sin. If you are dressed provocatively, a man will look at you and think you're"hot". That means he's lusting you. He is seeing as an object, a attractive object. This is lust, and it all started with how you were dressed. Lust is a deadly sin. Get it or not, that's all I'm going to say. God bless!
You do know the 7 deadly sins are not in the Bible right? They were written long after the Bible was. The 7 deadly sins: Lust, Greed, Gluttony, Pride, Sloth, Wrath and Envy, was written long after the most accepted, King James version, of the Bible was written, right?
Rape is horrible and inexcusable and if it weren't for lust the world would probably a pretty empty place. There are plenty of deadly sins. If a guy wants to see me as an object, I am. A woman. Infertile with SRS or not. If I turn him on I am most definitely prideful, If he falls in love with me I am happy. Believe me Hon. I understand. "Be fruitful and multiply." I will not say anymore my little sister, but never cast the first stone. You may not want to hear this, and you may smite me but you cast it and I caught it and will not throw it back Hon. All I have to say is think about it. That's all, just think about what you said and I said. No malice because I indeed live in a glass house hon. I really don't know what to say other than you are an important part of this place just because you are here.
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 02:53:46 PM
No, you guys do not understand. I am not talking about rape, rape is horrible. I am talking about lust being a sin. If you are dressed provocatively, a man will look at you and think you're"hot". That means he's lusting you. He is seeing as an object, a attractive object. This is lust, and it all started with how you were dressed. Lust is a deadly sin. Get it or not, that's all I'm going to say. God bless!
Whatever. I am not going to argue with you whether it is sin or not because I am not at all religious, just spiritual. I find your reasoning to be flawed anyway. So is a shirtless man also somehow at fault for exposing himself and letting women lust on him? Because I honestly see a double standard here as you are only implying it is wonen who should be modest not to disturb men's thoughts but you make no comment about how men should wear. Sin is only the person's who commits fault according to your religion. So I don't see your point. You are basically holding women to an impossible standard. Who says the guy doesn't have a huge neck fetish and gets aroused upon seeing one? Is that her fault because she didn't cover it up?
Sorry if I misunderstood your initial post.
EDIT: Excuse me my spelling, I am on my phone
Quote from: Jaz650 on August 26, 2014, 02:53:46 PM
No, you guys do not understand. I am not talking about rape, rape is horrible. I am talking about lust being a sin. If you are dressed provocatively, a man will look at you and think you're"hot". That means he's lusting you. He is seeing as an object, a attractive object. This is lust, and it all started with how you were dressed. Lust is a deadly sin. Get it or not, that's all I'm going to say. God bless!
Lust isn't a sin, it's a natural, biological reaction. Animalistic, perhaps, but in itself it's just a feeling. It's when you act upon it against someone's will that it becomes a problem. If there is no mutual agreement, no matter what it is, it's an infringement upon individual freedom. Dressing seductively without intention to seduce, however, is just foolish in times like these. There's a lot of repressed sexuality out there due to this very anti-lust sentiment, and that makes for some very unstable individuals. Funny how that works. ::)
Locked for 24 hours. Calm down folks.