Susan's Place Transgender Resources

The peeing standing up thread has evolved into the discussion of whether or not transitioning is a choice. I firmly believe that for most TSs transitioning is NOT a choice and that to espouse such views does harm to the community. Hey, I am all for free speech but saying transitioning is a choice gives credence to those who deny health coverage to TSs.

I have already had my SRS and paid for it so I have no skin in this game but I don't know why anyone in the community would want to give fodder to the dark side.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 12:33:34 AM
I disagree.

Using more politically correct terminology does not translate to greater acceptance.

I think the only thing that matters is when transsexuals decide to be public about their identity and make a presence in our society so that people know transgender people are here to stay.

I am sorry if I am not using the right word, but I will not say something I don't believe in.

Having "gender identity disorder" is not a choice, I believe what we do with our identity is our choice.

Or I am just a straight shooter, I am not going to extra careful with my words in order to yield more sympathy or empathy from anyone else, if someone doesn't like what I say, too bad.

I wll make sure that people know I am only speaking for myself, because i know that some people strongly disagree with me.

Let me make the connection for you, saying that transitioning is a choice only encourages the view that SRS is a choice and though I have already paid for my own SRS, I still want to see the day that other TSs in the US won't have to, a quite altruistic view from someone who didn't choose the ideal place and time to be born.

Again, there are some issues that we need to stand shoulder to shoulder on, but, hey, I come from an old union family and my forefathers spilled blood to stand up for the rights of the oppressed.

Posted on: July 18, 2007, 02:25:05 AM

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Quote from: Sandi on July 18, 2007, 01:44:38 AM

Quote from: melissa90299It is of utmost importance for us to word things cautiously, even hinting that transsexuallity is a choice is political suicide.

Unless I have been reading it wrong, she didn't say that transsexuallity was a choice. She was contending that whether one decides to act on their GID, or transsexuallity, and transition was a choice. Which is true.

I tried to be more cordial in my last post, but let me be blunt, and call it what it is. Nit picking.

See my last post. I will be even more blunt. For those of you, the minority I am sure, who feel that transition is a choice, you would be doing the trans community a big favor if you kept that thought to yourself. Again, it only gives weight to those who would deny coverage to transsexua

I am glad you decided to create a new topic.

I do not think you need to quote me, but i won't stop you.


Transitioning is a choice, being openly gay is also a choice.


A gay person can choose to be honest about his or her sexuality or choose to live a lie.

A person with gender identity disorder can choose to transition and become who they truly are or continue to pretend to be someone else she or he is not.

But having same sex attraction or having a body that does not match the gender in one's mind is not a choice. 

 Someone who is gay but denied his true feelings will become depressed or even suicidal, someone who is a girl but live in a boy's body  but does not take steps to live life as a woman will become depressed or even suicidal.     

So, transitioning is a choice to become happy.

PS: I wonder if all transgender people kill themselves when they couldn't transition and hormones were not available?  I have doubts about that. Do I think they were happy? No, but did they all choose to kill themselves because they couldn't transition and take hormones and have surgeries? I don't think so.

Transitioning is not *merely* a choice, its an important and a life changing choice. Thank you.     

That's funny, I wrote a really nice post supporting the point of view that this is not a choice and all the reasons why. All that transsexuals endure and how the right calls it a "lifestyle choice", but I decided it was too far off the topic and didn't want to hijack the thread. So I deleted it.

Anyway, I agree with Melissa that for political, philosophical, and sociological reasons, we can not concede this is a lifestyle or a choice. Mainly because it's not true, but also so people can understand just how difficult it is to accept this about oneself. Rejecting the truth about ourselves is not an alternative to be considered. At it's best, it's a temporary solution, at it's worst it leads to depression, shame, guilt, self loathing and in many cases suicide.

That is not a choice.

Love always,
Elizabeth

*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >:D  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2610.0.html)


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >:D  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2610.0.html)


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.

Quote from: melissa90299See my last post. I will be even more blunt. For those of you, the minority I am sure, who feel that transition is a choice, you would be doing the trans community a big favor if you kept that thought to yourself. Again, it only gives weight to those who would deny coverage to transsexua[l]

To begin with Melissa, I don't think that anyone here is telling "society" whether transition is a choice. The exception is, at most, a handful of non-transgendered and SOs that may read this forum. Otherwise it is a discussion here within our community.

An aquaintance in I knew in the Milwaukee transsexual support group would like to have had gender reassignment surgery. Married with children and a semi-supportive SO, who sometimes came to support group with her. However it would have broken up the family as so often is the case. This person loved her SO very much, not to mention the children, and made the "choice" to not have surgery. How well she has lives with that choice now I do not know, because I no longer go to support group, and we haven't kept in touch, but it was her choice. At the time she was fairly well adjusted to her decision, and was happy. What am I missing that you can tell her she doesn't have that choice?

Which brings me to another point about the meaning of transition. Surgery, though usually desired by most, isn't necessary for everyone to complete transition. Transition is complete when one is happy with where one is at, and has no strong need or wish to go any further. That could be full transition with surgery as yourself, or simply staying on HRT. Transition can even be complete if a person accepts that they have GID, and that is enough. They may not wish to go any further for family reasons, or they simply may not desire surgery. Not even HRT, or coming out of the closet is required. Only acceptance of their GID, and a desire to go no further.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:27:34 AM

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >:D  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2610.0.html)


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.

No, I am saying that a  "so called transsexual" who gives himself/herself the luxury to "choose" NOT to transition ISN'T transsexual.  Plain and simple.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:31:13 AM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:27:34 AM

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >:D  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2610.0.html)


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.

No, I am saying that a  "so called transsexual" who gives themselves the luxury to "choose" not to transition ISN'T transsexual.  Plain and simple.

tink :icon_chick:

I do agree with that. I am sorry I misread you.  I always believe the term transsexuals only applied to those who have taken physical steps to change their bodies.    But I would say that someone can choose to not transition but still suffers from gender identity disorder. Yes, that person is likely to be unhappy (or even commit suicide) , but that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't transition is A-OKAY with their gender. 



I also would not kill myself if I couldn't transition. I would never use a gun, first of all. Secondly, I might engage in self destructive behavior, but I can't imagine myself ever putting a bullet in my brain or jumping off a building.   

I am sorry, if my refusal to commit suicide no matter what is not dramatic enough for the public to accept me or tolerate me. Oh well.

Quote from: AsiangurleeBut I would say that someone can choose to not transition but still suffers from gender identity disorder.

True, that person may suffer from some kind of GID, but obviously that GID isn't too strong for that person to be considered transsexual.

Transsexualism = Severe form of GID

QuoteTranssexualism is a severe form of GID, defined by an intense discomfort with one's assigned sex and with one's primary and secondary sex characteristics.  For people who suffer from profound GID, there's a conflict between the person's body and the person's psychological identity as male or female.

The above paragraph was extracted from this link:

http://www.glad.org/rights/me_ad_reg_mb_testimony.pdf

tink :icon_chick:

Umm,
  ok, maybe I am a strange sort here but as you all know labels and terminology drives me nuts so let me make this simple. TS' and IS' are women (for m2f and vice versa for f2m of course). A TS has the brain of one gender but was given a body opposite to that. An IS has that plus biological traits (organs etc) of the opposite. That being said there is no choice. To say otherwise is kinda like saying, oh I don't know, a frog waking up one day and deciding he's not a frog. I mean come on folks, if you profess to be TS or IS you are the gender of your brain and you do not have a choice, unless someone knows how to reprogram the brain. No? didn't think so. And the longer you deny to yourself your true gender the more miserable life will be for you.
  And please do not go around saying it is a choice in public, our fight is hard enough now. Having someone say they are TS or IS and walk around saying stuff like this is going to be the death of all of us. And if whoever is saying is is offended by my response then please see your therapist because I think you got misdiagnosed. True legitimate TS' and IS' know what I am saying.
                                                                  Kim   :angel:

Kim, why don't you tell us what you really think? LOL

I will never forget when an HR person trying to be supportive when I was making a complaint of sexual harassment said something to the effect: "They have to respect who you are after all this is your choice." And I failed to correct her. It still bothers me to this day that I did not speak up.

Here we go again. Different views of what a choice is and whether this should be handled in an objective fashion or as politics.

I think living (i.e. not committing suicide) is a choice.

Thus transitioning (and not committing suicide) is a choice.

Having GID is not a choice and transitioning is (imho) the best path for the most TS inviduals - and for many the only good path.

Oh come now, that is a Clintonesgue parsing of words, silly and contributes nothing, quite frankly, save, perhaps, muddying the water.


(Clintonesque parsing but the logic is strictly George Bush.)

To make things more clear "choice" and "lifestyle choice" are different things.

I think it is more along the line of making the choice to accept medical treatment for any other thing (e.g. cancer). However there are some people that don't make the choice for treatment and I think that is a valid decision too (as long as they know what they are doing).

For me, being on HRT was not a choice. I tried my damndest to not be on it. If I could get a drug that made me feel as good as I do now, without the "side effects", that would be preferable. I say that because transitioning is not only hard, it upsets lives, it is exspensive, and it is a major life changing event. Because I have to be on HRT to be somewhat stable in this world, I have no choice but to suffer the side effects of being mentally sound and deal with the physical changes as they happen.

That doesn't mean I don't ever want to be a girl, I wished that were 100% possible but the reallity is I will never be. I can only go so far and hope that I look good enough to pass and be accepted as one. I am just trying to be reallistic about my situation. First, this has to be done, there was no other way and no other drug. Secondly, I must deal with the changes being on HRT will bring. And third, I must put a plan into action to change my life and those around me with as little damage and pain as possible.

I often read about TS that learn about their condition and jump in with both feet and take a running start down the path of transitioning without much thought and little to no planning. They would appear to jump in blindly with little to no regard for anybody but themselves. I guess that is another reason why I am a "Pickle". I try to see the reality and the effect it will have on not only me, but those around me that depend on me financially, physically, and socially. I must have a plan and have things in place such as finances, employment, education, and a backup plan for anything that fails. I tried hard to find another way around this, to avoid it, to be anything but a "Pickle". I sure as hell wished there was another way. All paths in my life led in one direction. I took the long way around getting here looking for other solutions. Even though my estrogen level is maxed out and my T level has tanked, I still search for other options. I will search for other options my whole life I suspect. When there is no validation, and no medical diagnosis that can pinpoint the issue, you are left to your own mind to diagnose yourself. Maybe those that chose to transition did so because of some strange idea that being the opposite sex/gender will be easier? Or it could be a sexual thing? Or perhaps it is simple as lying to themselves and just not being 100% honest? Maybe they really did choose?

I am as stubborn and strong headed as they come, and I do not like having 1 "choice" as some choose to call it. For me it is not a choice, it IS MY REALITY, and the hand I was dealt. I'm not much of a poker player but I can bluff when need be, and hopefully that will get me through something that very few have education or knowledge of. Yes, transition is the hand that was dealt to me, It is my destiny or my "El Guapo" (Three Amigos) in life.

A choice for me? I think not. It may be for some others but I will not speak for them. Anybody that would "choose" this would be a fool to me and needs to be "evaluated" for other issues. In the end, if I truly had a "choice", I  would have never chosen this route.

There are always choices, we make them everyday of our lives and continue to do so until we die.

However some choices are extremely limited and it may be that there are only one or two choices.....

However, If we are diagnosed with GID ,then I believe it is our fate, coupled with destiny to transition , otherwise the choice is to continue to face a lifetime of pain, depression and confusion.

Not much of a choice really.

Buffy

In my opinion if you are severely Gender dysphoric, you have limited options; transtion, die or live in abject pain and frustration the rest of your life.  For me it was transition or suicide, I could no longer live for the other people around me (my wife, children, work or my disowned family).

Obviously not everyone falls in that catagory.

Sarah L.

Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 06:59:04 AM
To make things more clear "choice" and "lifestyle choice" are different things.

I think it is more along the line of making the choice to accept medical treatment for any other thing (e.g. cancer). However there are some people that don't make the choice for treatment and I think that is a valid decision too (as long as they know what they are doing).

Sure it is a decision made by someone who is not transsexual. I don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us. I heard someone say that if she had her druthers she would be a girl probably, she guesses but hse would not transition or consider SRS and that person defied herself as transsexual. I don't know why having the classification of transsexual is such a desirable thing that people want this derivation yet deny the essence of what defines us.

For me its definately a choice, similar to the choice: should i juggle with knifes or just stab myself?

i can choose to either take the path that i know will hurt me, but i also know where it will take me or
i can choose the uncertain path, that will probably give me some cuts and bruises but also can take me to a better life than that other alternative.

its the same choice as to eat or not
if i decide to eat ill live
if i decide not to eat ill die

that an alternative hurts us doesnt mean that there is no choice

Yeah, you could say transitioning is a "choice" for a TS in the same manner that you could say a cornered and provoked animal will "choose" to fight back to save it's life.  It's all a part of the survival instinct.  Saying that acting on the survival instinct is a choice is bogus plain and simple and that's exactly what transitioning is.  Why do you think so many of us end up following the same path?  It's because our instincts tell us to.  That's also why non-transsexuals see this as a choice.  It's because they have never had that instinct activated and therefore don't know what it feels like.

Well said Melissa.

Sarah L.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:27:34 AM

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >:D  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2610.0.html)


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.

(yay for megga quoteing)

Asiangurlieee: transition is not a choice, you might think you have one, but our narrow view of choice, isnt as wide as the actual concept. what is choice? decideing to do something now, as opposed to in a week isnt choice, we have decided nothing, but to deley start of whatever it is.
when a choice is 'life or death' is it really a choice?
a 'true transexual person' whatever that means, will transition at some point, or die at the hand of thier suffering. its impossible to supress it and live a happy life, the dysphoria will persist. what is our choice here? when to transition? because i sure as hell cant imagine a life as a male, and im not about to start...

Quote from: Lori on July 18, 2007, 07:21:05 AM
For me, being on HRT was not a choice. I tried my damndest to not be on it. If I could get a drug that made me feel as good as I do now, without the "side effects", that would be preferable. I say that because transitioning is not only hard, it upsets lives, it is exspensive, and it is a major life changing event. Because I have to be on HRT to be somewhat stable in this world, I have no choice but to suffer the side effects of being mentally sound and deal with the physical changes as they happen.

That doesn't mean I don't ever want to be a girl, I wished that were 100% possible but the reallity is I will never be. I can only go so far and hope that I look good enough to pass and be accepted as one. I am just trying to be reallistic about my situation. First, this has to be done, there was no other way and no other drug. Secondly, I must deal with the changes being on HRT will bring. And third, I must put a plan into action to change my life and those around me with as little damage and pain as possible.

I often read about TS that learn about their condition and jump in with both feet and take a running start down the path of transitioning without much thought and little to no planning. They would appear to jump in blindly with little to no regard for anybody but themselves. I guess that is another reason why I am a "Pickle". I try to see the reality and the effect it will have on not only me, but those around me that depend on me financially, physically, and socially. I must have a plan and have things in place such as finances, employment, education, and a backup plan for anything that fails. I tried hard to find another way around this, to avoid it, to be anything but a "Pickle". I sure as hell wished there was another way. All paths in my life led in one direction. I took the long way around getting here looking for other solutions. Even though my estrogen level is maxed out and my T level has tanked, I still search for other options. I will search for other options my whole life I suspect. When there is no validation, and no medical diagnosis that can pinpoint the issue, you are left to your own mind to diagnose yourself. Maybe those that chose to transition did so because of some strange idea that being the opposite sex/gender will be easier? Or it could be a sexual thing? Or perhaps it is simple as lying to themselves and just not being 100% honest? Maybe they really did choose?

I am as stubborn and strong headed as they come, and I do not like having 1 "choice" as some choose to call it. For me it is not a choice, it IS MY REALITY, and the hand I was dealt. I'm not much of a poker player but I can bluff when need be, and hopefully that will get me through something that very few have education or knowledge of. Yes, transition is the hand that was dealt to me, It is my destiny or my "El Guapo" (Three Amigos) in life.

A choice for me? I think not. It may be for some others but I will not speak for them. Anybody that would "choose" this would be a fool to me and needs to be "evaluated" for other issues. In the end, if I truly had a "choice", I  would have never chosen this route.

I understand what you are saying. I don't think anyone would choose to transition unless they know that there is no other way for them to be happy or at peace with themselves.


Anyways, I don't take my transitioning easily. I definitely will not *choose* to transition or continue to *choose* to transition if I know that I can live in any other way without changing my body.






Posted on: July 18, 2007, 11:39:22 AM

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Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 09:53:50 AM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:27:34 AM

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM
*giggling devilishly*  Here we go again!  >:D  You see, when I can't sleep, something juicy tends to be going on here and I'm right!

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2610.0.html)


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

I bet your pardon?

So are you saying I am not a transsexual?

Please tell me how you have the right to tell me what I am or what I am not. Thanks.

(yay for megga quoteing)

Asiangurlieee: transition is not a choice, you might think you have one, but our narrow view of choice, isnt as wide as the actual concept. what is choice? decideing to do something now, as opposed to in a week isnt choice, we have decided nothing, but to deley start of whatever it is.
when a choice is 'life or death' is it really a choice?
a 'true transexual person' whatever that means, will transition at some point, or die at the hand of thier suffering. its impossible to supress it and live a happy life, the dysphoria will persist. what is our choice here? when to transition? because i sure as hell cant imagine a life as a male, and im not about to start...

The choice is between living a miserable life and/or transition.

If someone doesn't agree with my choice of word, than it's fine but i hope noe one would say that I take the transition process lightly. I think about it everyday.



Posted on: July 18, 2007, 11:41:56 AM

---

Quote from: Kim on July 18, 2007, 04:50:41 AM
Umm,
  ok, maybe I am a strange sort here but as you all know labels and terminology drives me nuts so let me make this simple. TS' and IS' are women (for m2f and vice versa for f2m of course). A TS has the brain of one gender but was given a body opposite to that. An IS has that plus biological traits (organs etc) of the opposite. That being said there is no choice. To say otherwise is kinda like saying, oh I don't know, a frog waking up one day and deciding he's not a frog. I mean come on folks, if you profess to be TS or IS you are the gender of your brain and you do not have a choice, unless someone knows how to reprogram the brain. No? didn't think so. And the longer you deny to yourself your true gender the more miserable life will be for you.
  And please do not go around saying it is a choice in public, our fight is hard enough now. Having someone say they are TS or IS and walk around saying stuff like this is going to be the death of all of us. And if whoever is saying is is offended by my response then please see your therapist because I think you got misdiagnosed. True legitimate TS' and IS' know what I am saying.
                                                                  Kim   :angel:

I disagree. I will not be responsible for the "death of all transsexuals" if I speak honestly about what I think.

If you hate what I say so much, maybe you can get the president of the transsexual committee to launch a public campaign to smear my reputation or form the "Real Transsexuals" organization and exclude me from joinning. But I will never try to speak on behalf of any other transsexuals. I came here to talk about how I feel, not to engage in in transsexual politics by imposing my values and beliefs on others. I only want to speak for myself and will continue to speak my mind in a considerate manner ,  unlike certain people who have decided to single me out and act in a less than friendly manner.

I think in some cases it is a choice and these people usually pull out once you start telling them the gritty reality of the situation and the limitations of hormones and their own physical limitations.

I believe a true transsexual will adapt more easily and the pattens and signs would emerge at a much younger age.  We usually fight on because we know there was a problem from birth and our brain function is the opposite of our gender definition by genitalia at birth.

My case is even more complcated as they believe I am intersexed and had a low exposure to testoterone at puberty and I am still undergoing various tests. I didn't have the same development as other boys and my voice didn't break and my male bone development was limited compared to males of the same age and build. I'm not saying that all transsexuals should be born intersexed and many are clearly not but they still have that part of them which quite rightly isn't right. I think in time with more technology the majority of transsexuals will have signs within their DNA, brain scans etc that it will reveal is a genetic condition for a vast majority.

Quote from: Berliegh on July 18, 2007, 12:19:28 PM
I think in time with more technology the majority of transsexuals will have signs within their DNA, brain scans etc that it will reveal is a genetic condition for a vast majority.

That would be great, indeed.

Has anyone in this thread implied that it is a lifestyle choice?

Mostly this thread seems to be about different definitions of choice, and what constituces choosing. Note that choice to receive medical treatment for a serious problem and lifestyle choices are very different things. Some people don't see the first one as choice, others see it as a choice.

Quote from: Berliegh on July 18, 2007, 12:19:28 PM
My case is even more complcated as they believe I am intersexed and had a low exposure to testoterone at puberty and I am still undergoing various tests. I didn't have the same development as other boys and my voice didn't break and my male bone development was limited compared to males of the same age and build.

Yeah, I experienced the same thing.  My voice lowered somewhat, but never broke.  It reverse broke though with HRT, which was strange.  My brother looks MUCH more masculine than me and is 6 inches taller to boot.

I had a karyotype done and the result said that I didn't have XX or XXY in me (I assume that means I'm XY) and I was able to have 2 kids (a girl and a boy).  So I decided to give up the pursuit and I just say I'm TS with feminine features (well actually for the most part I don't say I'm anything at all, but I would say TS now if pressed) which give me a good advantage.  More than likely the features are caused by a variety of factors such as low T levels that caused my body to not masculinize to a high degree and being a twin (some studies show that twins are more likely to have a smaller height and weight).  I was diagnosed with having a varicocele (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicocele), which could have caused the low T levels.  I also think the fact that I have hypermobile joints and the fact that I went through puberty with lower than normal testosterone levels gave my skeleton a more female shape.  These ideas are just my theories to explain why my body is how it is and still have it correspond with all the test results.  It's kind of a stretch, but it does fit.

QuoteI think in time with more technology the majority of transsexuals will have signs within their DNA, brain scans etc that it will reveal is a genetic condition for a vast majority.

That is what I am waiting for I think.

It's a "You have Permission."

I need to have external validation before I can move at all.

Stupid? Yea, I can accept that.

Kate said it's something she had to get past.

I can't get past it, I've tried.

Maybe I am socially brainwashed, but without external validation I will suffer through this because the alternative, without external validation is that I could just be crazy.  I have to know it's not in my head.
So, I am exercising a choice.  I am choosing unhappiness and depression until such time that science can KNOW that it's physical and I'm not crazy.

It's like, years after my funeral, what will they say?

I'd rather they say, "We don't know what happened, all the sudden this person just offed themself."
than have them say, "This person was a lunatic."

For those of you saying, who cares what other people say? I do. Maybe that's my issue, but, I do care what people think of me.

I guess I am saying, I have made a choice.

Jessica

Quote from: regina on July 18, 2007, 01:22:41 PM
Taru, it was a dumb joke. Forgive me. Another question I have is, if 'primary' transitioners have no choice and HAVE to transition, should their medical care and surgeries be paid for as non-elective, while those who transition later, who supposedly are CHOOSING to transition, have their procedures viewed as 'elective' surgery which, in this country, is usually paid for out of pocket? Comments?

I think both should be paid. As it is not elective fun choice, but treating an existing medical condition.

An example could be cancer. There is the choice to get treatment for it or not to get treatment and hope it will go miraculously away. Also some people have ethical/religious objections to treatment and will make the other choice. Still cancer treatment is not considered elective, even though some people make the choice not to receive it.

Quote from: Jessica on July 18, 2007, 01:28:49 PM
That is what I am waiting for I think.

It's a "You have Permission."

I need to have external validation before I can move at all.

Stupid? Yea, I can accept that.

Kate said it's something she had to get past.

I can't get past it, I've tried.

Maybe I am socially brainwashed, but without external validation I will suffer through this because the alternative, without external validation is that I could just be crazy.  I have to know it's not in my head.
So, I am exercising a choice.  I am choosing unhappiness and depression until such time that science can KNOW that it's physical and I'm not crazy.

It's like, years after my funeral, what will they say?

I'd rather they say, "We don't know what happened, all the sudden this person just offed themself."
than have them say, "This person was a lunatic."

For those of you saying, who cares what other people say? I do. Maybe that's my issue, but, I do care what people think of me.

I guess I am saying, I have made a choice.

Jessica

Wow, you seriously sound like me a year ago. You can keep looking or do something about it. I stopped looking and accepted it for what it is. Either we are all crazy they same way, or medical science has not yet figured it out. They will one day. Probably after I had surgery and it is to late to do anything else about this.

I think I am of sound mind and not crazy. But then again maybe I am insane? Who knows. I do know that on HRT I do not obsess or drive myself or others around me crazy dwelling on being transgendered. Estrogen is magic stuff for me. I feel so good on it. I don't know if it is a high or just gives me so much relief that it feels like being high. Now how can going from an obsessed, 1 track miserable existance to a happy go live my life as a person while on Estrogen be mental?

It is said that hormones control or steer the mind. It is like I gave my mind the right gas and it is running correctly. After chugging along on bad gas for so long, I have physical proof that what I am doing is correct for me, and in that I have my validation and my answer that this is correct for me at this point. After 39 years, I think I would know what feels right and what doesnt. Many could argue I just feel "different" and not just "good". If that is the case, it is a big difference and the difference I feel is what I need.

Hormones are physical things, and I physically need them to physically feel fine. Does that make any sense? I guess I am saying my validation is proof that I feel great, I do not obsess, and it is clear to me this is what I must do.

Quote from: Jessica on July 18, 2007, 01:28:49 PM

QuoteI think in time with more technology the majority of transsexuals will have signs within their DNA, brain scans etc that it will reveal is a genetic condition for a vast majority.

That is what I am waiting for I think.

It's a "You have Permission."

I need to have external validation before I can move at all.

Stupid? Yea, I can accept that.

Kate said it's something she had to get past.

I can't get past it, I've tried.

Maybe I am socially brainwashed, but without external validation I will suffer through this because the alternative, without external validation is that I could just be crazy.  I have to know it's not in my head.
So, I am exercising a choice.  I am choosing unhappiness and depression until such time that science can KNOW that it's physical and I'm not crazy.

It's like, years after my funeral, what will they say?

I'd rather they say, "We don't know what happened, all the sudden this person just offed themself."
than have them say, "This person was a lunatic."

For those of you saying, who cares what other people say? I do. Maybe that's my issue, but, I do care what people think of me.

I guess I am saying, I have made a choice.

Jessica

I can totally relate to what you are saying.

It is really horrible when one needs external validiation or 100 percent proof that one is born in the wrong body.

I also ask myself if i am crazy all the time, but estrogen gives me a drive to continue despite whatever doubts that I have. That, however, does not stop me from questioning myself. And I guess it is hard for me as well, because I really care a lot about what other people think.


And while I know that it is all about my personal need and the need to be who I am, and the society should not matter; I cannot really see myself as an independent unit that is independent of everyone's else.

Without society, there is no individual, how can I ever be completely me and discount what everyone else thinks of me or how I was socialized?

I really am jealous of the people who are so sure that they have to transition or commit suicide, because it would be a very easy choice to make if you are either going to blow your brain out or take estrogen.

But while 99 percent of transsexuals might be like this, I hope no one is discounting anyone else who does not feel the same as you do. 

QuoteI don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us.

Probably because it isn't an "absolute need" for everyone. Nor is everyone with GID that doesn't have surgery, unhappy with their "choice" to not transition.

We (or I anyway) get that it is an absolute need for you. I also get it, that for the transsexual person I mentioned earlier from Milwaukee, did not have an "absolute need" to transition. That was her choice.  ;)

imo id think proof that your not mad is a good thing? i worreid like hell that i was bonkers till i was diagnosed as intersexed. it laid my mind at rest for sure. But hey,i guess its not for everyone want to know.

Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 02:31:59 PM
imo id think proof that your not mad is a good thing? i worreid like hell that i was bonkers till i was diagnosed as intersexed. it laid my mind at rest for sure. But hey,i guess its not for everyone want to know.

Those of us who aren't or don't know we are intersexed and transition are certainly not bonkers.

Dennis

Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 05:22:20 AM
Here we go again. Different views of what a choice is and whether this should be handled in an objective fashion or as politics.

I think living (i.e. not committing suicide) is a choice.

Thus transitioning (and not committing suicide) is a choice.

Having GID is not a choice and transitioning is (imho) the best path for the most TS inviduals - and for many the only good path.

I beg to differ. Living is not a choice. The act of committing suicide is. Living is something that is uncontrollable and self-sustaining (for the most part). Discontinuing that process of living is a choice since you are taking certain actions to counteract the normal process [of living]. Therefore, transitioning is not a choice, but the act of sustaining your living existing. Now I am not saying that everyone who doesn't transition will kill themselves, but for the ones who need to transition so they can be happy it is not a choice. For others who do not transition, it is not a matter of choosing to transition or not, it's a matter of choosing what's more important in their life...family (or other) or themselves. Those who are not transitioning for those reasons would probably transition were they not in that situation.

Take me for example. I started transitioning 1 1/2 years ago and stopped because of family and stress. I ended up starting it again soon thereafter because I had no choice. For me it was either transition or...something else. The ultimate deciding factor, as some others have said, is how far you need to go to be comfortable and happy with yourself.

What people in our community forget a lot of times is that the TG spectrum is very wide and diverse. There are many paths to choose from that lead to the same conclusion...happiness. If you ever generalize ANYTHING that one must or must not do to be TG, TS, etc., etc. then you are incorrect. This goes for anything: HRT, SRS, facial hair removal, etc. They are all there if one needs them, however, none are required and none are a choice.

With that said, you can see that transitioning is not the choice, not transitioning is the choice.

Sarah

Quote from: Dennis on July 18, 2007, 02:40:05 PM

Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 02:31:59 PM
imo id think proof that your not mad is a good thing? i worreid like hell that i was bonkers till i was diagnosed as intersexed. it laid my mind at rest for sure. But hey,i guess its not for everyone want to know.

Those of us who aren't or don't know we are intersexed and transition are certainly not bonkers.

Dennis

oh granted no, but it felt that way in my head. just me i guess.
but imo, all trans people are slightly intersexed, i mean, we claim its not mental illness, so there must be some medical background, therefore it must be a medical thing? oh well, some folk dont need/want explanations, im just curuios.

It's hard to believe we're rehashing this again.  (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg40.imageshack.us%2Fimg40%2F3444%2Fcrazy1no.gif&hash=1c124c7afe2be81f79e3bf87975916760f34e6c7)

A couple of observations about the dialog on this subject:  Those who are TS and who have transitioned are Pro-Life and Anti-Choice.  Of course I say this tongue in cheek.  They have chosen to live rather than to commit suicide or be unbearably miserable (I'm not sure there's much of a difference.)  And they sincerely do not believe there is a choice in the matter.

I also notice that it is the ones who have transitioned (with or without surgery) who are the ones who are adamant about defining a TS as one who will transition sooner or later.  And their definitions point to the fact that anyone who decides not to transition or cannot for medical or other reasons must not be the real deal.  And of course now we have medical standards to give "credence" to this.  I really must wonder if some (certainly not all) of those who seem so uncompromising on the transition issue do so because they are still, at some level, rather insecure about their own decision to do so. 

My concern with this "who's in the union" mentality is that those who are really struggling, who are trying to decide between the best of multiple evils, may have just as severe (or worse) dysphoria as those who have transitioned.   So now they are dissed by everyone: family, friends, co-workers, and even the rest of the TG community because they don't quite measure up for anyone.  Even their own bodies tell them that, in some crazy way, they are not welcome.  So they are told that if they were really worthy of the grand title of TG  (apparently some kind of holy grail to many), they wouldn't care what anyone thought.   And herein lies the fallacy of this way of thinking.

Most people do care what others think, and some people care a great deal.  They are loved ones:  wives, husbands, parents, children, neighbors, church members........  In fact, they would rather die than scandalize those they hold near and dear.  It should not have to be that way, but right now, society has made it that way.  If they do not physically die, many are living emotionally dead lives, having been denied the core of their happiness.  And the TG community consigns them down to some second tier of importance because their own personal happiness is not at the top of their priority list.  They are excluded and demeaned, not for their medical condition, but for their value system which may put love of and service to others at the very top.  So how many people in this camp finally give up on life because they now fit nowhere?  If they are not fully accepted by the TG community, who will accept them?

There would seem to be a danger of a peer pressure mentality where some are (perhaps unknowingly) pressured into seeking transition for the sake of validation and acceptance.  This is more than disastrous.  It is the classic "tail-wagging-the-dog" and it must be the other way around.  Else, I submit that the system itself is invalid.  It is no longer descriptive but prescriptive.  In that case the system is, in fact, extremely harmful.

I'll stop the rant, and I know that practically no one on here agrees with these sentiments.  And I know most are tired of me making these comments.  That's OK, I can duck.  So lob away.  But before you do, please honestly examine your heart and ask if your actions in perpetuating a caste system just might contribute to the demise of another person who is your soul mate, but in different circumstances.

OK, here come the bricks......
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishgaelictranslator.com%2Ftranslation%2Fimages%2Fsmiles%2Fadd1_steinigung.gif&hash=85186947615023ebaa1aa65eabeb857b3513621c)

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Kristi, your "rants" are always sensible, like sensible shoes  ;), they're never of the raving lunatic variety (that's so unladylike anyway  :D). Doesn't matter if I agree or not, I admire they're mature tone.

Quote from: Sandi on July 18, 2007, 02:27:51 PM

QuoteI don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us.

Probably because it isn't an "absolute need" for everyone. Nor is everyone with GID that doesn't have surgery, unhappy with their "choice" to not transition.

We (or I anyway) get that it is an absolute need for you. I also get it, that for the transsexual person I mentioned earlier from Milwaukee, did not have an "absolute need" to transition. That was her choice.  ;)

IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 18, 2007, 07:26:17 PM

Quote from: Sandi on July 18, 2007, 02:27:51 PM

QuoteI don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us.

Probably because it isn't an "absolute need" for everyone. Nor is everyone with GID that doesn't have surgery, unhappy with their "choice" to not transition.

We (or I anyway) get that it is an absolute need for you. I also get it, that for the transsexual person I mentioned earlier from Milwaukee, did not have an "absolute need" to transition. That was her choice.  ;)

IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

Seconded!

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 18, 2007, 07:26:17 PM
IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

HBSOC seems to disagree with this. (and we get into semantics of overwhelming)

How would you classify person who transition yet whose need is not overwhelming? If they are not transsexuals what are they?

Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 07:41:17 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 18, 2007, 07:26:17 PM
IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

HBSOC seems to disagree with this. (and we get into semantics of overwhelming)

How would you classify person who transition yet whose need is not overwhelming? If they are not transsexuals what are they?

This is the answer I gave Asiangurlee yesterday:

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:47:20 AM

Quote from: AsiangurleeBut I would say that someone can choose to not transition but still suffers from gender identity disorder.

True, that person may suffer from some kind of GID, but obviously that GID isn't too strong for that person to be considered transsexual.

Transsexualism = Severe form of GID

QuoteTranssexualism is a severe form of GID, defined by an intense discomfort with one's assigned sex and with one's primary and secondary sex characteristics.  For people who suffer from profound GID, there's a conflict between the person's body and the person's psychological identity as male or female.

The above paragraph was extracted from this link:

http://www.glad.org/rights/me_ad_reg_mb_testimony.pdf

tink :icon_chick:

As far as a definition word per se.  I don't know which will apply, perhaps "transgender" since this is an umbrella term that covers everyone who is gender variant.

tink :icon_chick:

Except by SOC only transsexuals are treated.

And this creates a loop. Everyone receiving treatment as per SOC is diagnosed as being TS. Non-TS TG inviduals should not be given treatment if SOC is followed. Now you may have other criterias for this, but isn't the "who is a TS" quite old (lots of threads about the issue)

ICD10 and HBSOC define transsexual (as do the site rules) and they do not include "overwhelming".

Grrr,

why are we bothering with this conversation.

Some people will transistion - some people will not. We each have individual choices to make, our own journey based on our beliefs, deires and emotions. I will not transistion as my GID is not great enough. The again next year when I get of my anti-depression meds I may re-think.

We are all different people. Lets support each other in their own goals without  trying to put our values onto other people.

Alice

Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 07:52:17 PM
Except by SOC only transsexuals are treated.

And this creates a loop. Everyone receiving treatment as per SOC is diagnosed as being TS. Non-TS TG inviduals should not be given treatment if SOC is followed. Now you may have other criterias for this, but isn't the "who is a TS" quite old (lots of threads about the issue)

ICD10 and HBSOC define transsexual (as do the site rules) and they do not include "overwhelming".

We are discussing whether transition is a CHOICE among TS people.  A transsexual WILL transition.  If a person "chooses" not to transiton, then that person, IMO and by definition isn't TS.

Quote from: HBSOC4
Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied
by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through
surgery and hormone treatment;
2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;
3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

I think there was a little discussion about the "usually" part when the definitions were created here, but it was finally decided to keep it anyway.

BTW the above statement regarding who is and who isn't was made using the words IMHO.

tink :icon_chick:

Of course transitioning is a choice.  I DARE anyone to throw a brick. I triple dare you.

OK, now that, THAT nonsense is over, lets put it in context.

Everything in life is a choice, including staying alive. You can always choose suicide if that doesn't work for you.

Transitioning for GID afflicted people is a choice, but it is more akin to an ultimatum, ala:

Guy has a heart that is 90% obstructed, and he is only given a short-time to live.
He can choose to do nothing and die, or he can choose to take a treatment in the hopes that he will live.

Transitioning is a treatment alove all else. It keeps people alive. It doesn't solve all of the problems that person might have, but neither will an angioplasty for the guy in the analogy above. It is used by the medical community, and it must be valid, or they would quit using it as part of the treatment regimen. So, transitioning is not a lifestyle choice so much as it is part of a treatment regimen.

Now, there are plenty of people that can and will refuse treatment for any given medical condition. Or they may choose part of the treatment program and refuse others, like my Mother has done. People with a bad tooth might go in to have it taken care of, or they may wait until it is either falling out, or infecting the whole body. The choice seems simple, but for some people, the pain of the treatment is immediate and scares them into refusing the treatment, therefore making the problem much worse down the road. And nobody can make you do something that is good for you ~ i.e. transitioning ~ if you are afraid of the regimen.
The devil you know is safer than the devil you don't know, at least that is true for some people.

So, yes, transitioning is a choice. It is a choice for a better, healthier, safer life. It is a choice not to fall into the grips of the medical condition, and an attempt, a choice, to try and get better. It is also an acceptance of your condition. So, for some people, the inability to come to grips with their situation causes them to deny they have a life-threatening problem. Even when they are depressed and suicidal. It reminds me of my drinking days. You can't get help until you are able to admit that you have a problem and need help.

Most medical conditions are more easily overcome by younger folk. So, it is no surprise that when a person is diagmosed with this medical situation, that the younger the person is when they first seek treatment, the better the results are, and the more likely they will have a positive outcome. The older a person is when they first seek treatment, the more likely that the condition will have progressed in a negative fashion, and so it requires more agressive, expensive, and invasive care to get back to a positive outcome. Transitioning is no different.

Hopefully, someday, when all of the politics are squeezed out of the mix, then people can seek out and get treatment as it is needed, instead of when it can be afforded.

Of course, that is just my NSHO.

Throw a brick, and I will crush you like a bug.

I found the largest brick, Thundra, but after reading your post.  I agree with most (not all) your points.  *hides brick for future use*

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Alice on July 18, 2007, 07:52:18 PM
Grrr,

why are we bothering with this conversation.

Because it is absolutely essential that the myth that transitioning is a choice be squelched. Thousands of women are forced to pay out if pocket for their transition because of the belief that transitioning is a "choice."

QuoteSome people will transistion - some people will not. We each have individual choices to make, our own journey based on our beliefs, deires and emotions. I will not transistion as my GID is not great enough. The again next year when I get of my anti-depression meds I may re-think.

I am not one to judge anyone else but the consensus seems to be that one of the essential elements of being a transsexual is the overwhelming desire to transition. One may not be able to because of health or finances, whatever but without that overwhelming feeling of dysphoria, I would question if that person is a  transsexual.

QuoteWe are discussing whether transition is a CHOICE among TS people.  A transsexual WILL transition.  If a person "chooses" not to transiton, then that person, IMO and by definition isn't TS.

I wish to thank both Thundra and Kristi for stating things far more eloquently than I'm able to.

Speaking from personal experience, I was diagnosed TS. I did over a year RLE (it was called RLT back in the dinosaur ages when I transitioned). I later made the even more difficult choice to not go any further, even though I was more happy as a woman than I've ever been as a man. I had many reasons for not continuing my transition, among them, couldn't get some doctors to treat me without health insurance, religious or spiritual beliefs that I was created as I am with this disjunct between mind and body for some reason unbeknown to me and maybe changing my body wasn't the right solution (for me, not anyone else), and finally that accepting myself as I am regardless of outward presentation is most important.

I disagree that the definition of TS is that one WILL transition, certainly the desire to do so is strong, and I still sometimes wonder years later whether I should try again. The condition of being gender variant isn't a choice, no question about that, I've known that since I was a child, however whether we decide to transition, or kill ourselves, or live with depression, or find Jesus or Yahweh or Buddha... these are choices that we make.

OK, those bricks that you didn't throw at the others, I've changed into my stylish armor  ::)

zythyra

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 08:04:56 PM

Quote from: taru on July 18, 2007, 07:52:17 PM
Except by SOC only transsexuals are treated.

And this creates a loop. Everyone receiving treatment as per SOC is diagnosed as being TS. Non-TS TG inviduals should not be given treatment if SOC is followed. Now you may have other criterias for this, but isn't the "who is a TS" quite old (lots of threads about the issue)

ICD10 and HBSOC define transsexual (as do the site rules) and they do not include "overwhelming".

We are discussing whether transition is a CHOICE among TS people.  A transsexual WILL transition.  If a person "chooses" not to transiton, then that person, IMO and by definition isn't TS.

Quote from: HBSOC4
Transsexualism (F64.0) has three criteria:
1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied
by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through
surgery and hormone treatment;
2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;
3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

I think there was a little discussion about the "usually" part when the definitions were created here, but it was finally decided to keep it anyway.

BTW the above statement regarding who is and who isn't was made using the words IMHO.

tink :icon_chick:

My dearest Tink, with whom I so rarely disagree,  go ahead and get that brick out.  You'll need it.  But please make it big enough to put me out of my misery when you use it.

Using this part of the SOC, what do you call this person (using the corresponding numbers)?

1. The desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by the wish to make his or her body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatment;

The person wants this badly and spends as much time as possible in that role.  The person wants desperately to have HRT and surgery, and to transition, but cannot at present for a variety of reasons, chief among them being medical.  Conditions may or may not ever improve.

2. The transsexual identity has been present persistently for at least two years;

The person has had this struggle for over 40 years, has tried to suppress it, but the feelings intensify with each occurrence, to the point where the struggle is now constant and nearly unbearable.

3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

OK, go ahead and diss this person because they have not transitioned.  (The standards don't, by the way, if you read them carefully.)  This person does not have the choice of transitioning.  Not at this time, anyway, and perhaps never.  And she is so envious of those who can.  So everyone go ahead and start lobbing the bricks.  Make it a party and enjoy the hurling!  Those splats and crunches will inspire some uproarious laughter.  I happen to know she won't mind.  It would be a huge relief if they are big enough and thrown hard enough.  How do I know?  If you haven't figured it out, I'm talking about myself.

Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:02:48 PM3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

Source and symptom are quite the opposite.  A symptom is caused by another source.  This is merely to specify that the GID is not caused by something like Disassociative Identity Disorder (Multiple personalities).

Quote from: Melissa on July 18, 2007, 10:10:57 PM

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:02:48 PM3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

Source and symptom are quite the opposite.  A symptom is caused by another source.  This is merely to specify that the GID is not caused by something like Disassociative Identity Disorder (Multiple personalities).

Melissa, that was precisely my point.  Thanks, hot chick!

Now, I keep hearing that this is a definition thing.  I have read the SOC.  Where did I miss this?  Will someone please quote the part that says "a TS WILL transition"?

BTW here is what I have been considering authoritative:
http://www.tc.umn.edu/~colem001/hbigda/hstndrd.htm

Is there a newer version of which I am not aware?

Thanks!

Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:23:30 PM
Will someone please quote the part that says a TS WILL transition?

Thanks!

Kristi

Didn't you receive the quote you requested via PM?   >:D

tink :icon_chick:

P.S.  Time to do something more fun.  Good night.  ;D

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 10:56:50 PM

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:23:30 PM
Will someone please quote the part that says a TS WILL transition?

Thanks!

Kristi

Didn't you receive the quote you requested via PM?   >:D

tink :icon_chick:

P.S.  Time to do something more fun.  Good night.  ;D

A little medical knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Did you hear about the latest study that proved now that milk is hazardous to your health?  They fed laboratory rats a quart of milk an hour and guess what happened..... they exploded!  So milk is hazardous to out health.

I'm afraid that is more scientific than what Tink sent me, even though it was good for a laugh.

I agree, time for bed.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi

Quote from: regina on July 18, 2007, 11:10:18 PM
Kristi, out of curiosity, why do you think everyone's ready to condemn you because you haven't physically transitioned? Is this fear about how we feel or about you feel?

Gina, thanks for the flowers!  Actually, we have had this discussion before a number of times.  I know the majority of opinions are not what I personally share.  Now I'm kind of sorry I let myself get sucked into this again.  It just irks me when people talk about what some great authority says, when really it does not.  No problem, I am proceeding off to take my pill:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.exceler8ion.com%2Fwp-images%2FChill-Pill.png&hash=7288d5e902e0a860c170db15ec1821782126c536)

Kristi

 Choice??????  I have no choice at all. If I can`t have hope of transition , I want to die now at this moment. Way would I go from our "so called" normal excepting strait family relationship I have with Carla to a gay relationship with Carla ( hopefully) Strait men are veawed like first class citizens. Gay women are more like 3rd.
  It`s not a choice

Good for a joke.  Allow me to laugh ~laugh~ if not joke, implausibly insolent & insulting to transsexual women.  Plus a good reason for insurance companies to waive genital reconstruction surgery from their formularies.

it's a choice for someone that isn't a transsexual.  being who you are is never easy.  it is either this or that.  it can't be both.

Quote from: almost,angie on July 19, 2007, 12:02:28 AM
If I can`t have hope of transition , I want to die now at this moment.

wasnt that right now a choice? you chose an alternative way, as i said it will hurt you, but its still a choice

Thats how things get chosen. one option is bad/horrible and the other is better/great.

well everyone seems to have a different definition of choice :P
i like to think that im somewhat in control of my life. There are strong feelings that might make me act in some way but i always have the choice to act in a completely other manner.

I have no issue with saying I chose to transition.

I chose to transition the same way that I chose to abuse drugs, and both were for almost the same reason. I was in pain living my life the way I was living it. I wanted to be happy, I wanted something to take the pain away.  I chose drugs first. Perhaps intoxicating myself continuously, day in day out, would ease the pain, make me think of something else, not let the pain rule me like it was beginning to. For a while it worked. I felt happy.

Inevitably though, it stopped working. The pain was still there in the background, and kept coming back to the foreground every time I sobered up. And it was affecting my health, and ways my pain was not doing on its own. I realised my choice of how to deal with my pain was a bad one. So I made a concious choice to stop trying to treat my pain with chemicals, and to transition with the hope of my pain going away once and for all. And that turned out to be a good choice.

I chose to live my life as a woman. I chose to see a therapist to get my HRT letters, I chose to change my name, I chose to wear the clothes and makeup and style my hair in a way acceptable to the general public as to what a woman should do so I would be better accepted by them as a woman. I didn't choose to be transsexual - I chose to live my life as a woman in happiness instead of live as a man full of pain and torment.

I'm going to chance an analogy here: you don't choose to be hungry, but you do have a choice of what to eat. You can eat the food that makes you feel healthy and fulfilled, or you can eat the food that will give you food poisoning and cause you to spend the better part of the evening vomiting. Just because one of the options seems completely irrational to you doesn't mean that you don't have a choice.

And because it's probably going to come up, judging by some of the previous replies, if you feel the sudden need to reply to my post by claiming that I mustn't be a transsexual because I can see that I had a choice to do what I did, keep it to yourself. I know what I am, I'm not deluding myself, please don't feel the need to point out to me that I am. I'm completely comfortable with the idea that, as a rational human being, I made a rational choice to make my life experience less painful and more fulfilling to me. And I fail to understand how that could offend anybody. I chose to be happy. Why not be happy for me?

Megan

Quote from: Sarah B on July 18, 2007, 03:19:50 PM
Living is not a choice. The act of committing suicide is. Living is something that is uncontrollable and self-sustaining (for the most part). Discontinuing that process of living is a choice since you are taking certain actions to counteract the normal process [of living]. Therefore, transitioning is not a choice, but the act of sustaining your living existing.

In support of your view, Sarah--

Albert Camus, in The Myth of Sisyphus, said there is really only one question in life: Whether or not to commit suicide. What an apt statement for transsexuals.

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:23:30 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 18, 2007, 10:10:57 PM

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:02:48 PM3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

Source and symptom are quite the opposite.  A symptom is caused by another source.  This is merely to specify that the GID is not caused by something like Disassociative Identity Disorder (Multiple personalities).

Melissa, that was precisely my point.  Thanks, hot chick!

I think maybe you misread that line in the SOC.  It says for the symptoms of GID, it can NOT be the symptom.  In other words, if it's DID or IS, then that would contraindicate a GID diagnosis.

If you look in the SOC right above where it lists these 3 criteria, it unambiguously says:

QuoteFor persons who did not meet these criteria, Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS)(302.6) was to be used. This category included a variety of individuals, including those who desired only castration or penectomy without a desire to develop breasts, those who wished hormone therapy and mastectomy without genital reconstruction, those with a congenital intersex condition, those with transient stress-related cross-dressing, and those with considerable ambivalence about giving up their gender status.

I highlighted exactly what you described.  It means you have GID (302.6), but would not be considered transsexual (302.85).

Quote from: MeganRose on July 19, 2007, 08:08:23 AM
I have no issue with saying I chose to transition.

I'm going to chance an analogy here: you don't choose to be hungry, but you do have a choice of what to eat. You can eat the food that makes you feel healthy and fulfilled, or you can eat the food that will give you food poisoning and cause you to spend the better part of the evening vomiting. Just because one of the options seems completely irrational to you doesn't mean that you don't have a choice.

We all "chose" to transition, we chose when, we chose this above death or pain or dispair.

We Did Not "chose" to have this condition, we did not ask to live our childhood (and beyond) in frustration, pain or fear.

I "chose" at several points in my life to attempt suicide (once for real, other times letting others know I was going to do it hoping they would stop me).  I finally made the "CHOICE" to transition with a 38 revolver pointed at my head, it was either pull the trigger or transition.  Transitioning won out.

The real question we are talking about here is the "definition" of Choice.

Our choice isn't something we do lightly, it isn't the same as chosing to write a letter in pencil or in ink.  We are choosing where our life goes, we are making the most important choice of our life.

There is more I wanted to say, but I am losing my train of thought.


Sarah L.

Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 03:30:34 PM

Quote from: Dennis on July 18, 2007, 02:40:05 PM

Quote from: Rachael on July 18, 2007, 02:31:59 PM
imo id think proof that your not mad is a good thing? i worreid like hell that i was bonkers till i was diagnosed as intersexed. it laid my mind at rest for sure. But hey,i guess its not for everyone want to know.

Those of us who aren't or don't know we are intersexed and transition are certainly not bonkers.

Dennis

oh granted no, but it felt that way in my head. just me i guess.
but imo, all trans people are slightly intersexed, i mean, we claim its not mental illness, so there must be some medical background, therefore it must be a medical thing? oh well, some folk dont need/want explanations, im just curuios.

You are right Rachael, it's certainly not a mental illness and I've never liked the way the NHS percieves it that way. When I was first diagnosed the pduchiatrist wrote to my GP and said I do not have any signs of mental illness whatsoever.........so where do they decide to send me 'West London Mental Health'....

Now there's a spanner in the works as it looks like I'm intersexed judging by all the tests I've had at University Hospital so now they have got to look at the situation again. Suddenly this person (me) can't be put in the 'mental health' bracket.....and I wonder how many other people, if you did deep enough have underlying genetic abnormalities as well...

Quote from: Sarah Louise on July 19, 2007, 10:38:22 AM
We all "chose" to transition, we chose when, we chose this above death or pain or dispair.

We Did Not "chose" to have this condition, we did not ask to live our childhood (and beyond) in frustration, pain or fear.

I "chose" at several points in my life to attempt suicide (once for real, other times letting others know I was going to do it hoping they would stop me).  I finally made the "CHOICE" to transition with a 38 revolver pointed at my head, it was either pull the trigger or transition.  Transitioning won out.

The real question we are talking about here is the "definition" of Choice.

Our choice isn't something we do lightly, it isn't the same as chosing to write a letter in pencil or in ink.  We are choosing where our life goes, we are making the most important choice of our life.

Those are some very good points.  The statement that we have no choice is based on the notion that anything that is an inevitability is not really a choice, but merely the illusion of choice.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 10:34:13 AM

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:23:30 PM

Quote from: Melissa on July 18, 2007, 10:10:57 PM

Quote from: Kristi on July 18, 2007, 10:02:48 PM3. The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality.

Quite the opposite, the disorder has been shown to be the source of other secondary disorders.

Source and symptom are quite the opposite.  A symptom is caused by another source.  This is merely to specify that the GID is not caused by something like Disassociative Identity Disorder (Multiple personalities).

Melissa, that was precisely my point.  Thanks, hot chick!

I think maybe you misread that line in the SOC.  It says for the symptoms of GID, it can NOT be the symptom.  In other words, if it's DID or IS, then that would contraindicate a GID diagnosis.

If you look in the SOC right above where it lists these 3 criteria, it unambiguously says:

QuoteFor persons who did not meet these criteria, Gender Identity Disorder Not Otherwise Specified (GIDNOS)(302.6) was to be used. This category included a variety of individuals, including those who desired only castration or penectomy without a desire to develop breasts, those who wished hormone therapy and mastectomy without genital reconstruction, those with a congenital intersex condition, those with transient stress-related cross-dressing, and those with considerable ambivalence about giving up their gender status.

I highlighted exactly what you described.  It means you have GID (302.6), but would not be considered transsexual (302.85).

Yep. And I honestly think BPD should be in there as a contraindiction. The core of BPD is that the person has no cohesive identity and does at times think their the opposite gender.

Wait a minute, so what label would you call someone who has is taking HRT and not considering genital reconstruction?


I think it is absolutely demeaning to say that such person is not a transsexual. Being on HRT is  *changing* one's sex.


According to THE STANDARDS OF CARE FOR GENDER IDENTITY DISORDERS -- SIXTH VERSION

"Transgender is not a formal diagnosis, but many professionals and members of the public found it easier to use informally than GIDNOS, which is a formal diagnosis."


And under the heading "Surgery" it reads:


"Sex Reassignment is Effective and Medically Indicated in Severe GID. In persons diagnosed with transsexualism or profound GID, sex reassignment surgery, along with hormone therapy and real life experience, is a treatment that has proven to be effective. Such a therapeutic regimen, when prescribed or recommended by qualified practitioners, is medically indicated and medically necessary. Sex reassignment is not "experimental," "investigational," "elective," "cosmetic," or optional in any meaningful sense. It constitutes very effective and appropriate treatment for transsexualism or profound GID."



So someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 12:44:35 PMSo someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Might opt?  According to your own quotations:

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 12:44:35 PMSex reassignment is not "experimental," "investigational," "elective," "cosmetic," or optional in any meaningful sense.

The dictionary defines "opt" as:

QuoteTo make a choice from a number of alternatives.

Transsexuals are not just "opting" for it because it is not optional--it is required treatment.  I would suggest rereading your post, since you basically answer your own questions inside of it.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 01:33:11 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 12:44:35 PMSo someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Might opt?  According to your own quotations:

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 12:44:35 PMSex reassignment is not "experimental," "investigational," "elective," "cosmetic," or optional in any meaningful sense.

The dictionary defines "opt" as:

QuoteTo make a choice from a number of alternatives.

Transsexuals are not just "opting" for it because it is not optional--it is required treatment.  I would suggest rereading your post, since you basically answer your own questions inside of it.

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. My English might not be too good.

I checked the word "opt" on m-w dictionary, it said:


Etymology: French opter, from Latin optare
: to make a choice; especially : to decide in favor of something <opted for a tax increase -- Tom Wicker>


I would think that when you sign the form that you will be having the surgery, you are making a decision that you will put yourself through the surgery, and it is not an option for you, but it is something you *decide* to do, otherwise, the surgeon can't perform anything on you without *your* consent.

I never meant that the choice to transition is lifestyle choices.


And transitioning might not be *optional* in a *meaningful* sense, it does not mean that a person did not make the decision to transition, unless someone forced fed estrogen to you against your will.

I've always considered that we wake up everyday and make the choice to live, and we make the choice *how* we want to live. That's what I meant by *choice*.

Anyways, my question about not considering transsexuals who take HRT but do not want surgery to be transsexual remains. 

QuoteSo someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Correct, according to my understanding of the SOC, they are TS. I worked with a therapist for a few years, I was diagnosed as TS, SRS was among the possible treatments for that condition. My diagnosis didn't magically change to non-TS when I didn't choose to pursue that treatment.

zythyra

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:39:10 PMI would think that when you sign the form that you will having he surgery, you are making a decision that you will put yourself through the surgery, and it is not an option for you, but it is something you *decide* to do, otherwise, the surgeon can't perform anything on you without *your* consent.

Making a decision (or choice) and taking an action are 2 different things.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:39:10 PMAnyways, my question about not considering transsexuals who take HRT but do not want surgery to be transsexual remains.

Again, that was already answered.  According to the SOC (you decide how much credence you want to give it), the answer would be no.  If you think the SOC is a bunch of BS, then it really doesn't matter what that person calls themself.

Quote from: zythyra on July 19, 2007, 01:39:57 PM

QuoteSo someone diagnosed with profound  GID or transsexualism might opt for sex reassignment surgery, it does not say that someone who does not opt for sex reassignment surgery cannot be diagnosed with transsexualism. If someone is diagnosed with transsexualism, why aren't they called transsexuals whether or not if they have profound GID or require SRS as the choice of treatment?

Correct, according to my understanding of the SOC, they are TS. I worked with a therapist for a few years, I was diagnosed as TS, SRS was among the possible treatments for that condition. My diagnosis didn't magically change to non-TS when I didn't choose to pursue that treatment.

zythyra

Definitely, I don't like it when someone says you are not a TS according to their own subjective opinion on what a TS is.

Should we be called part time transsexuals? Who has the right to tell us who is true TS or not? Who can define who? Only we know who we are, really.

We can define ourselve in any way we wish.  We can not force the world to accept our definition.  The world has a way of making up its own mind.

Saying that, we still have to live with who we are.  It is our life, our decision, we don't have to accept what others think of us.

It is your life, live it.


Sarah L.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 01:45:58 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:39:10 PMI would think that when you sign the form that you will having he surgery, you are making a decision that you will put yourself through the surgery, and it is not an option for you, but it is something you *decide* to do, otherwise, the surgeon can't perform anything on you without *your* consent.

Making a decision (or choice) and taking an action are 2 different things.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:39:10 PMAnyways, my question about not considering transsexuals who take HRT but do not want surgery to be transsexual remains.

Again, that was already answered.  According to the SOC (you decide how much credence you want to give it), the answer would be no.  If you think the SOC is a bunch of BS, then it really doesn't matter what that person calls themself.

I don't understand you at all. I am quoting from the SOC, I am not the one who is treating it as a "bunch o BS.'

I don't really appreciate you putting words in my mouth and pretending to know what I think about the SOC when you obviously don't.

The SOC said it is not "optional" in any "meaningful" sense, it didn't say it that SRS is not a decision or something the patient choose to go through because they do not see any other "meaningful" option to live without having a genital reconstruction. Don't twist my words. 


Have you heard of the expression, "making the only choice possible to him" ?

For some transsexuals, SRS is the *only* choice they can take if they choose to save their own life or have any chance to live a life that is not filled with misery.

What is so shocking or wrong about that? If you found my *choice* of word so disagreeable, okay, but there is no need to be hostile to me. I don't understand the hostility. If I make the choice to have SRS, I would choose to peruse this option because it is the only way for me to be happy about who I am and have a chance at a happy life.

I wouldn't care if someone said it is a choice or not, because I am secure with my choice, and I know that it is the only choice that is for me.

If some republicans or conservatives want to deny me health insurance coverage for my surgery because I make the choice to have this surgery, I would blame the republicans or conservatives , not someone who uses the word "choice" to describe their transitioning. 


I failed to understand how you can say that I think "SOC" is a bunch of BS and I still like to know where did the SOC say that a person who takes HRT or who has been diagnosed as a transsexual is *not* a transsexual because they do not choose to peruse SRS.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMI don't understand you at all. I am quoting from the SOC, I am not the one who is treating it as a "bunch o BS.'

I don't really appreciate you putting words in my mouth and pretending to know what I think about the SOC when you obviously don't.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMI failed to understand how you can say that I think "SOC" is a bunch of BS and I still like to know where did the SOC say that a person who takes HRT or who has been diagnosed as a transsexual is *not* a transsexual because they do not choose to peruse SRS.

I didn't say that you think it is a bunch of BS.  I said: "IF you think it is..." It's just that some people do.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 01:45:58 PMIf you think the SOC is a bunch of BS, then it really doesn't matter what that person calls themself.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMThe SOC said it is not "optional" in any "meaningful" sense, it didn't say it that SRS is not a decision or something the patient choose to go through because they do not see any other "meaningful" option to live without having a genital reconstruction. Don't twist my words. 


Have you heard of the expression, "making the only choice possible to him" ?

For some transsexuals, SRS is the *only* choice they can take if they choose to save their own life or have any chance to live a life that is not filled with misery.

What is so shocking or wrong about that? If you found my *choice* of word so disagreeable, okay, but there is no need to be hostile to me. I don't understand the hostility. If I make the choice to have SRS, I would choose to peruse this option because it is the only way for me to be happy about who I am and have a chance at a happy life.

I wouldn't care if someone said it is a choice or not, because I am secure with my choice, and I know that it is the only choice that is for me.

If some republicans or conservatives want to deny me health insurance coverage for my surgery because I make the choice to have this surgery, I would blame the republicans or conservatives, not someone who uses the word "choice" to describe their transitioning. 

To be honest, I've kind of grown tired of this conversation.  Call yourself whatever you want.  It really doesn't matter, nor does it affect the end result, which is living your life how you want it.  It's just a label.

I'm sorry that I came across as hostile.  I was just adamantly defending my opinion and I usually am very concise and get right to the point, which sometimes gets misinterpreted as hostility (perhaps something I should work on).  That's all it was--just my opinion based on how I read the SOC.  The SOC is a big generalization meant to cover all transsexuals and because we are all different, you can't expect it to be perfect.  So if I offended you, I'm sorry for that.

I know that SRS is right for me and transition was not much of a choice.  I tried everything else first (including suicide) and it was the last thing left.  At my lowest point when I had no other options, I was literally reduced to tears laying on the floor just saying about every awful thing I could about myself.  I wanted to just "give up" in life and do absolutely nothing including getting up off the floor, but that's not really an option since you are still alive and eventually survival instincts kick in. 

When there is only one possible course of action remaining, it's not really a choice.  I just don't want people discrediting my feelings and how I feel about this (I'm not saying you were).  My parents have done that a lot and as a result, I've been hurt by it, so I tend to be a bit sensitive.  That's where I was coming from.  I will attempt to show the same respect for others' feelings and opinions.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 04:35:05 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMI don't understand you at all. I am quoting from the SOC, I am not the one who is treating it as a "bunch o BS.'

I don't really appreciate you putting words in my mouth and pretending to know what I think about the SOC when you obviously don't.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMI failed to understand how you can say that I think "SOC" is a bunch of BS and I still like to know where did the SOC say that a person who takes HRT or who has been diagnosed as a transsexual is *not* a transsexual because they do not choose to peruse SRS.

I didn't say that you think it is a bunch of BS.  I said: "IF you think it is..." It's just that some people do.

Quote from: Melissa on July 19, 2007, 01:45:58 PMIf you think the SOC is a bunch of BS, then it really doesn't matter what that person calls themself.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 01:56:40 PMThe SOC said it is not "optional" in any "meaningful" sense, it didn't say it that SRS is not a decision or something the patient choose to go through because they do not see any other "meaningful" option to live without having a genital reconstruction. Don't twist my words. 


Have you heard of the expression, "making the only choice possible to him" ?

For some transsexuals, SRS is the *only* choice they can take if they choose to save their own life or have any chance to live a life that is not filled with misery.

What is so shocking or wrong about that? If you found my *choice* of word so disagreeable, okay, but there is no need to be hostile to me. I don't understand the hostility. If I make the choice to have SRS, I would choose to peruse this option because it is the only way for me to be happy about who I am and have a chance at a happy life.

I wouldn't care if someone said it is a choice or not, because I am secure with my choice, and I know that it is the only choice that is for me.

If some republicans or conservatives want to deny me health insurance coverage for my surgery because I make the choice to have this surgery, I would blame the republicans or conservatives , not someone who uses the word "choice" to describe their transitioning. 

To be honest, I've kind of grown tired of this conversation.  Call yourself whatever you want.  It really doesn't matter, nor does it affect the end result, which is living your life how you want it.  It's just a label.

I'm sorry that I came across as hostile.  I was just adamantly defending my opinion and I usually am very concise and get right to the point, which sometimes gets misinterpreted as hostility (perhaps something I should work on).  That's all it was--just my opinion based on how I read the SOC.  The SOC is a big generalization meant to cover all transsexuals and because we are all different, you can't expect it to be perfect.  So if I offended you, I'm sorry for that.

I know that SRS is right for me and transition was not much of a choice.  I tried everything else first (including suicide) and it was the last thing left.  When there is only one possible course of action remaining, it's not really a choice.  I just don't want people discrediting my feelings and how I feel about this.  I will attempt to show the same respect for others' feelings and opinions.

I understand. I am pretty persistent. I don't think SRS is a choice anyone would like to make if there is another way to live.

I personally feel the same way as well. I just feel that it is a mistake to think that just because someone does not has "profound" GID or have "SRS" or does not *transition*, they are not going through their own personal hell.  If anything, I think it is harder when one doesn't have a blueprint for life, and one doesn't know what one can do or one can't take the action to peruse SRS (for whatever reasons)  in order to alleviate their own discomfort about their gender.

I personally like to be in a situation that I have to choose SRS or die because it would have been easier.

And I am sick of this conversation as well, talking on this topic is like stepping on a minefield. I just can't shut up, I guess.

if were being technical, if someone refuses GRS when it is available, (atainable i should say) then maybe thier dysphoria is less so?

Quote from: Rachael on July 19, 2007, 05:16:55 PM
if were being technical, if someone refuses GRS when it is available, (atainable i should say) then maybe thier dysphoria is less so?

I wouldn't like to judge anyone on that comnment as a lot of GRS operations done through the NHS in the U.K go wrong. One patient I met had to have 14 operations to put the first one right. I have also met others who have suffered with various problems afterwards which are pretty gory so I won't go into detail. I must admit I really want the operation but the NHS hasn't got a very good success rate from the statistics I've seen so far....

Quote from: morticia on July 19, 2007, 07:04:17 PM
Transitioning is not a choice.  For ME..  Well, maybe it is, but for it to be a choice there has to be an alternative.
And the alternative to transitioning, for me, is suicide.

So you see, it's a no-brainer.

For others, YMMV......

it's right for you going by your photograph..

A very dear member said here once.  If transition is merely a choice for you.  Please DO NOT transition, for you don't know what you are getting into.

tink :icon_chick:


P.S.  Thanks riot grrrrrrl ;)  Words of wisdom as always.

I thought having a choice means their is always another option available. Death is not a choice. It is thrust upon us and we must fight it off constantly. If you really are a trannsexual then you should transition because its the easier option. The other option of not transitioning does lead to discomfort and depression. There are other options at your disposal one of them being suicide sadly. But I dont think people choose where they go in life. I believe in fate.

Quote from: Berliegh on July 19, 2007, 06:57:33 PM

Quote from: Rachael on July 19, 2007, 05:16:55 PM
if were being technical, if someone refuses GRS when it is available, (atainable i should say) then maybe thier dysphoria is less so?

I wouldn't like to judge anyone on that comnment as a lot of GRS operations done through the NHS in the U.K go wrong. One patient I met had to have 14 operations to put the first one right. I have also met others who have suffered with various problems afterwards which are pretty gory so I won't go into detail. I must admit I really want the operation but the NHS hasn't got a very good success rate from the statistics I've seen so far....

What I mean by "not a choice" is what is in one's heart (which BTW I just learned that the Thais consider the heart and mind to be the same thing) that is: the overwhelming need that she or he must transition, if one cannot transition due to health or financial reasons, that is another matter. But yes, for those who do not feel that overwhelming need, my advice is don't transition.

BTW implicit in Rachel's statement is that safe and affordable GRS with an excellent prognosis of success were available...I wouldn't question anyone who balked at a procedure with a poor rate of success.

I don't think anyone is taking transition as merely a trivial choice, so that point is pretty mute.

QuoteSo, you can hide that brick again for future use....I'm hoping to use it on Thundra's head...LOL 

Well, I will be down there within a month, so we'll continue this discussion and see just whatcha are made of girlie-grrrl.  Ever see Braveheart?  I'll bet you couldn't nail me from ten paces, if I was jumping up and down and going, nyah, nyah! And if you did, you better run really fast.

Kristi, I feel for you babe. You are a beautiful woman.  I'm sorry that you cannot proceed at this time with HRT. After I had to stop self-administering, I gained a newfound sense of empathy for people that are denied this basic need. In my book you are a woman regardless of what other people say.

Well, people are saying that this was a choice for me and that was not and I am not like them and blah, blah, blah!  Well, you ARE diffferent from other people. That is what makes you, uniquely you. Nobody has the same biology or mental processes. So, for some people transition is necessary. For others it is not. And some will need to have surgery, while others will not. Since when does a medical procedure or plan of treatment make you what you are or are not? It's pure silliness. A medical procedure or plan of treatment does not make you who or what you are. They are simply a tool in an attempt to make you healthier.

And before anyone picks up the brick that says, "other ducks shall quack for thee," consider this. Definitions change over time. People have often been ostracized because of a medical condition, mental or physiological, and still are in many cases. Just because you walk into a crowd and someone accuses you of being something you are not, does nothing to change who you are. There is nothing wrong with you. If someone is putting upon you, they are being stupid. There are always going to be stupid people. I know gorgeous women right now, natal females, that get "clocked" as transsexual women. It's ludicrous. My point is that if you adjust yourself to meet other people's needs, you will never be done.

If you are happy with yourself, than %&$# everyone else. It's that simple. The world is FULL of stupid people and it will always remain so.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 18, 2007, 08:54:59 PM
Because it is absolutely essential that the myth that transitioning is a choice be squelched. Thousands of women are forced to pay out if pocket for their transition because of the belief that transitioning is a "choice."

I'll back you up on this, Melissa, because of the politics that discriminate so unfairly due to sheer ignorance and bigotry.

I agree with Thundra that it would be preferable if such politics didn't interfere and people could simply be who they are without arguing over these frickin vexatious definitions. Identity is highly personal and individual.

I am a woman.  It doesnt make any sense to choose to live the life of a man if that isnt what you are.

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 08:05:09 PM
I don't think anyone is taking transition as merely a trivial choice, so that point is pretty mute.

Everything in life is a choice but there are multiple degrees of choices from the trivial (what to wear, where to eat), to the
more substantial life choices (career, who to marry, where to live, having children--and even at this level there are those who
will argue these aren't necessarily choices since children just happen, people meet soulmates, or are gifted in a particular field),
to the realm where the word "choice" becomes offensive.  People "choose" to have organ transplants but the choice is so
obvious, the need so overwhelming, that we don't talk about people choosing to have organ transplants, or cleft palates
repaired, or skin grafted on severe burns.  Yeah, those are choices but it's just plain dumb to discuss them in that light. 
For the profoundly dysphoric, I think the same standard applies.  Those other procedures are covered by insurance because
reasonable people recognize treatment as vitally necessary.  So it is (or should be) for severe GID.  Great, you want to have a
philosophical discussion about transition being a choice, that's fine, but you might also try an understand why your viewpoint
is offensive to those of us who have transitioned at great personal cost just for the chance to live a reasonably normal life. 

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on July 19, 2007, 11:37:56 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 08:05:09 PM
I don't think anyone is taking transition as merely a trivial choice, so that point is pretty mute.

Everything in life is a choice but there are multiple degrees of choices from the trivial (what to wear, where to eat), to the
more substantial life choices (career, who to marry, where to live, having children--and even at this level there are those who
will argue these aren't necessarily choices since children just happen, people meet soulmates, or are gifted in a particular field),
to the realm where the word "choice" becomes offensive.  People "choose" to have organ transplants but the choice is so
obvious, the need so overwhelming, that we don't talk about people choosing to have organ transplants, or cleft palates
repaired, or skin grafted on severe burns.  Yeah, those are choices but it's just plain dumb to discuss them in that light. 
For the profoundly dysphoric, I think the same standard applies.  Those other procedures are covered by insurance because
reasonable people recognize treatment as vitally necessary.  So it is (or should be) for severe GID.  Great, you want to have a
philosophical discussion about transition being a choice, that's fine, but you might also try an understand why your viewpoint
is offensive to those of us who have transitioned at great personal cost just for the chance to live a reasonably normal life. 

Dawn

I am sorry I offended you.

But please be aware who was the person who wanted  to have this discussion about transition being a "choice".  I did not make this topic.

Just as well, I don't think you should separate those who have transitioned, who are transitioning, and who haven't transitioned as if only those who have transitioned have pay a personal cost at a normal life.

I think that all of us have very deep feeling about this issues and most of us are not exactly having this discussion just *for* fun.

If you think I am having an easy life and I am just being philosophical , than you are dead wrong, if you think this is something I enjoy thinking about or talking about, you are dead wrong, and if you think just because someone has "severe GID" or what not are the only people who are hurting the most, I would have to disagree with that.

What do you do with people who might have severe GID but can't transition one way or another? Or those who have GID and they have persistent discomfort with their gender but do not feel that they can transition for whatever reasons?

I think this discussion is kind of weird, and we are all getting really personal here and I will just say one thing, I am not being philosophical just for the heck of it, and I am not here to stir up debate just because I want to piss people off or create troubles.

My feelings are just as important and they are just as offended by some of the things people have said to me on this topic.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if you think transitioning is not really a meaningful choice or not, or if not have SRS does not make someone a transsexual.

If my choice of word offends people, than it was never meant to offend you or to discredit your experiences or feelings.

I am not making a political speech for the Human Rights Campaign, I am not any spokesperson of anything.

I really don't care, as long as I make the right choice for myself and that I choose correctly to be who I am  (there I go with the word again, oh well, I am not here to please anyone or take care of their own feelings or justify their own life experiences)

Last but not least, I am not here to make enemies, so I hope no one hates me too much

Quote from: Pia on July 19, 2007, 11:07:11 PM
I am a woman.  It doesnt make any sense to choose to live the life of a man if that isnt what you are.

uh huh. because giving up my current life and losing my entire family makes sense right? it's amazing how judgemental people are around here. people here seek so much not to be judged and yet all you do is judge judge judge. as if i'm not a really a girl on the inside because i have remained in this male body? give me a freaking break. some of you act as if transitioning is sooooooo easy. for some of us we cannot due to finances, family, or whatnot. Be glad that you can transition but dont you dare tell me what makes sense just because i cant do what you have done.

Transition isn't a choice.  Peeps that view transition this way arent profoundly dysphoric.  Moreover they can choose.  Be aware though, these peeps rely on agendas of their own and invent absurd illnesses to justify their viewpoints.

Not really. Not having "profound" G.I.D that does not induce someone to commit suicide or transition does not mean someone is having an easy life or that they can be ignored or their problems about their gender  are less troubling or less important than someone who has "profound" G.I.D.

There are many personal reasons why one might not be able to transition immediately or if ever, but I can't imagine that the inability to be ever completely happy about one's gender  because they can't or won't transition is a trivial or easy thing to live with, it is actually much harder than a person who has gone through all the treatments and now has a chance at a "normal life" as a post op transsexual.


If transitioning is not a choice for you, and if you had no choice but to transition and do the surgery, consider yourself lucky.

The rest of us are killing ourselves about what we should do or how we can be happy without a clear solution to our gender problems. 

Quote from: Jeannette on July 20, 2007, 12:48:26 AM
Transition isn't a choice.  Peeps that view transition this way arent profoundly dysphoric.  Moreover they can choose.  Be aware though, these peeps rely on agendas of their own and invent absurd illnesses to justify their viewpoints.

whatever. so easy for you to say once you've already gone through it all isn't it?

Quote from: andy24canada on July 20, 2007, 01:30:13 AM
whatever. so easy for you to say once you've already gone through it all isn't it?

For me, it looked WAY harder from the other side before I transitioned.  I won't say it was easy because it wasn't and I'm still not quite sure how I got from there to here.  Looking back, I think my own fears were what were the toughest to overcome.  Until a person does that, it seems like it will be much harder due to so much uncertainty.  That's why people who have already gone through it make it sound easier than it appears to be for you.

Quote from: andy24canada on July 20, 2007, 12:45:34 AM

Quote from: Pia on July 19, 2007, 11:07:11 PM
I am a woman.  It doesnt make any sense to choose to live the life of a man if that isnt what you are.

uh huh. because giving up my current life and losing my entire family makes sense right? it's amazing how judgemental people are around here. people here seek so much not to be judged and yet all you do is judge judge judge. as if i'm not a really a girl on the inside because i have remained in this male body? give me a freaking break. some of you act as if transitioning is sooooooo easy. for some of us we cannot due to finances, family, or whatnot. Be glad that you can transition but dont you dare tell me what makes sense just because i cant do what you have done.

if you wanted it bad enough, youd do it,
heck, i lost my family, and i came out to them knowing full well it could happen.
and isnt all social interaction judgeing?
transition isnt easy, but we do it because we have NO choice. isnt that the point of this thread?

bingo
give the lady a prize

Quote from: morticia on July 20, 2007, 03:11:24 AM
Well, this is my second and last go at it.  The first time was a disaster.
This time, I'm going slower and being more careful about how I do it.
I'm also taking steps to ensure that I can't go back.
I started the moans this past Jan.  I'm past the point of no return now.  Good.  That's the plan.
There's a high probability that I'll lose everything in the process.  But what else can I do?
I would rather lose everything and live under a bridge than to just do nothing and try to pretend it away.
The easy thing is to do nothing and just skate on through life pretending to be the person that the world insists that you be.
The hard thing is to risk it all, to be true to yourself and gain your freedom.

sitting in my hospital bed recovering from GRS and BA while marveling at looking like an aging Amazon Goddess and light years from what I was just three years ago, I too was counting on losing everything, I lost a lot but I gained so much more, it's truly a miracle, ya just gotta believe.

Posted on: July 20, 2007, 03:39:25 AM

---

I think I am going to write a song about this, it not being a choice, risking all you have, then having everything work out.

life is a gamble, weather we transition or not.... getting up in the mornings a gamble, this one just has higher stakes...

exactly...

Quote from: DawnL on July 19, 2007, 11:37:56 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 19, 2007, 08:05:09 PM
I don't think anyone is taking transition as merely a trivial choice, so that point is pretty mute.

Everything in life is a choice but there are multiple degrees of choices from the trivial (what to wear, where to eat), to the
more substantial life choices (career, who to marry, where to live, having children--and even at this level there are those who
will argue these aren't necessarily choices since children just happen, people meet soulmates, or are gifted in a particular field),
to the realm where the word "choice" becomes offensive.  People "choose" to have organ transplants but the choice is so
obvious, the need so overwhelming, that we don't talk about people choosing to have organ transplants, or cleft palates
repaired, or skin grafted on severe burns.  Yeah, those are choices but it's just plain dumb to discuss them in that light. 
For the profoundly dysphoric, I think the same standard applies.  Those other procedures are covered by insurance because
reasonable people recognize treatment as vitally necessary.  So it is (or should be) for severe GID.  Great, you want to have a
philosophical discussion about transition being a choice, that's fine, but you might also try an understand why your viewpoint
is offensive to those of us who have transitioned at great personal cost just for the chance to live a reasonably normal life. 

Dawn

There you are riot grrrrrrl.  :)  I was hoping you'd post under this thread. 

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: andy24canada on July 20, 2007, 12:45:34 AM
it's amazing how judgemental people are around here. people here seek so much not to be judged and yet all you do is judge judge judge. .......... Be glad that you can transition but dont you dare tell me what makes sense just because i cant do what you have done.

Well said, Andy!  Thanks.

Why do we think everybody has to conform to our own experience of they are not valid?  This does not come from the standards but from an inability to recognize someone else's life experiences are unique.  Hypocritical to the nth degree.

Kristi (who obviously "invented absurd illnesses to justify (my) viewpoints")

Seems as though there are two sides to the issue. I stated mine clearly and I agree with DawnL and I am in the exact same frame of mind as Morticia. I'm even on my second attempt.

Again for me it was not a choice anymore. I had to do something. Arguing why or why not seems to be a mute point. For those that feel it is still a choice, perhaps they just have not reached that level. For those that are TS, eventually you will run out of excuses. It is hard to see why there is no choice at the current point and state of mind you are at now, and until you realise you have to do something you will never understand those that say there is no choice. Just as I cannot understand those that have transitioned saying it is not what I think it will be, nor will it be that bad and I just need to have faith in the process. I feel like arguing with them all the time because I just cannot see the future and they are not me. I'm scared and that is what it boils down to. Fear.

Most people will never admit the truth, they will not be honest, and they will not open up and just say what is really holding them back. They will make up excuses to dodge the real issue blaming family, society, money, their jobs, or whatever else they can conjur up.

For some there may be a medical issue where they just cannot physically transition regardless of where their minds are at but those are far and few in between and to me, the only acceptable answer I will buy into.

I took many years to understand the choice/no choice issue. I did tests, read books, scoured the internet and weeded everything out until I ran out of options. There really is no choice in the end, and until you stop lying to yourself and stop lying to others and making up excuses, if you are TS, you will reach the same conclusion one day. Some just take longer than others. In the end that growing pain, that drive to transition will either drive you into maddness and you will either just accept it for what it is and deal with it, or die.

Until you reach that point, you simply do not know what you are arguing about, or again, your medical condition will not allow it and for those of you in that position I am truly sorry for you. But for you others, it is pure and simple. When I first joined this forum I was in the "Their is a choice camp". I argued until I was blue in the face with moderators, those that transitioned, my family, doctors, you name it. I cannot say at what point I crossed over, but in time my drive overwhelmed me and I finally realised there just was no other way. Not only is it stupid to keep fighting it, you are just delaying the inevitable if you are TS.

Go ahead and get mad at me, quote me and let me know just how stupid I am. Go ahead and tell me I am weak and gave up. Go ahead and tell me I just stopped caring about my family and everybody in my life, because I did the same thing over a year ago to others. It is my turn to take the heat for something I had no clue about. Well guess what, I have a clue now and as I stated earlier, until you realise there is no choice, you don't know what you are arguing about.

People are not being judgmental (for the most part) they are just stating their opinion. There is a very definite consensus here. For those who think it's a choice and have so far chosen NOT to transition, the upside is that they still have the option NOT to transition.

Many of the people arguing it is a choice *are* transitioning (including myself).

As a trend it seems like the people thinking there is no choice went very desperate before transitioning. Perhaps many of the choice-camp people just transitioned before they were that desperate (as GID tends to grow as time goes by)?

I view it personally as a choice akin to accepting treatment to cancer. If things were a little bit different I would have probably chosen suicide, which I view as a valid option.

So there are 2 chains of thorght, i am a woman trapped in a mans body. Does that make me TS? I think it does, i have savear depression because i cant transition, sueside is not an option. I have to live not die and if it means takin drugs the rest of my life so b it. Trust me if i could transition i would.

The posts in this topic that referred to looks, photos and avatars has been split off under a new title called Avatars and photos in transgender talk.

Steph

Quote from: andy24canada on July 20, 2007, 12:45:34 AM

Quote from: Pia on July 19, 2007, 11:07:11 PM
I am a woman.  It doesnt make any sense to choose to live the life of a man if that isnt what you are.

uh huh. because giving up my current life and losing my entire family makes sense right? it's amazing how judgemental people are around here. people here seek so much not to be judged and yet all you do is judge judge judge. as if i'm not a really a girl on the inside because i have remained in this male body? give me a freaking break. some of you act as if transitioning is sooooooo easy. for some of us we cannot due to finances, family, or whatnot. Be glad that you can transition but dont you dare tell me what makes sense just because i cant do what you have done.

I am certain that all of us who have transitioned have had those same thoughts at some point in our lives, we must have or
we would've transitioned as children or teens.  We didn't for those very reasons amongst many.  It *doesn't* make sense, that's
the whole point.  In the end, we transition anyway in the face of all that negativity, loss of family, income, whether we have
money or not.  That's the point.  In the end, we are forced to, there is nothing that can stop it.  My choice was the front of
a semi at 80mph or transition.  Transitioning was *NOT* easy, it was the hardest thing I've ever done.  It's also been the
most amazing liberating journey of my life. 

No one is judging you or anyone else.  If transitioning or not transitioning is a choice for you, fabulous, you have more options
than I had, but saying you *can't* is a relative thing.  I've seen some women transition in the face of tremendous handicaps and
obstacles greater than many of us can image because they *had* to.  The discussion here is about whether transition is a choice:
for some it is; I won't argue the point nor do I think less of anyone in that camp.  Just please accept that for others, there are
no real choices other than to transition.  If you don't understand that, that's fine, just don't argue it ain't so because you don't
understand it.

Dawn

(Hi Tink!)

Quote from: Steph on July 20, 2007, 05:08:27 PM
The posts in this topic that referred to looks, photos and avatars has been split off under a new title called Avatars and photos in transgender talk.

Steph

I moved one more post over that you missed.

transition is as vital as oxygen to keep me breathing.  i don't choose to breathe.
i breathe because it's a natural instinct.  i don't have a choice.  i can't choose not to breathe.

katia, is that you in your AV?

omg *idolises*

Quote from: Katia on July 21, 2007, 08:39:06 AM
i don't have a choice.  i can't choose not to breathe.

actually... *holds breath* *gets blueish in her face* *almost suffocates*

... i ... i *cough* i think i made my point  ;)

Quote from: regina on July 21, 2007, 11:05:07 AM

Quote from: Katia on July 21, 2007, 08:39:06 AM
transition is as vital as oxygen to keep me breathing.  i don't choose to breathe.
i breathe because it's a natural instinct.  i don't have a choice.  i can't choose not to breathe.

Wait, I thought the undead didn't have to breathe???

ciao,
Gina M.

ha ha ha ha that's a good way to see it.  but keep in mind that zombies can't turn into normal people.  they are already dead!   their flesh is even decomposed.  ;)

Quote from: Rachael on July 21, 2007, 08:40:22 AM
katia, is that you in your AV?

omg *idolises*

I know. Too bad she's a lesbian. What a waste. :icon_no:

waste?
im merely sexual
if its hot, it gets some rachy lovin, but my romantic side is saved for teh boyz....

In regards to the topic again I wouldn't believe that is it that large of a choice.  Sure, there are some factors that play in there that you would consider it a choice.  Such as do you want to spend the rest of your life living unhappily or without worth, or do you want to do something about it and make yourself feel complete and whole.  Just my two cents although, everyones opinion differs.

*grumbles*

The hot ones are never available. :icon_sniff:

Okay I feel a split topic coming... ::)

tink :icon_chick:

Posted on: July 21, 2007, 04:35:30 PM

---

Quote from: DawnL on July 20, 2007, 05:15:23 PM
(Hi Tink!)

Hi Dawn!  :icon_wave: Always a joy to see you. :)

tink :icon_chick:

QuoteI know. Too bad she's a lesbian. What a waste.

Hey, hey, heyyyyyy. Watch it bud-dy! Step away from the vampire.

No, the waste is that she only likes foofy grrrls.  Ahhh.  The life of a butch is such a challenge.
But I love the fact that she is firmly on my side of the fence. The fence I'm sitting on. Never mind.....

Could we please stay in topic?  thanks a lot kitty cats!

tink :icon_chick:

For me it technically was a choice but also in the same way that you can choose to punch yourself in the face or choose not to.

I don't even understand people who don't go FT as soon as is humanly possible, only after two months or so after coming to terms I transitioned comfortably, why would I leave it any longer? It just hurt too much to do anything but.

I'd almost forgotten how bad GID pain is.

why NOT go ft asap? surely sooner = less pain? but this topic isnt about ft date, OR mauds sensitivity which is cronically low, by medical standards btw.

plus shes #chat staff, not forum staff, her forum ranting and raving is entirely out of hours ;)

Quote from: regina on July 22, 2007, 10:30:48 PM

What I was thinking of are issues like, preexisting relationships, children, jobs, family, money (which is sometimes important, if you don't want to be a sexworker), issues of passing (a big one), not being emotionally ready for it (an even bigger one) and all sorts of stuff where you don't want to just go charging around like a bull in a china shop.

why think of transitioning at all when you carry all this baggage? can it be done in spite of all this? i'd just forget about it.  ;)

Quote from: Katia on July 22, 2007, 10:48:15 PM
why think of transitioning at all when you carry all this baggage? can it be done in spite of all this? i'd just forget about it.  ;)

Well, my therapist likes to say, "remember that when you transition, everyone else has to transition along with you..."

I 'spose I coulda just left left 'em all behind... though in the end, I NEEDED them to do this. And for sure, it was truly a struggle when I felt I was being held back unfairly. But I waited, and let people adjust, and generally took my cues from them as to when I could do what. And in the end, it was them dragging ME through this all, helping me all the way, rather than me just telling them to deal or else.

And aside from a few troubles, it worked out wonderfully for me. I really didn't "lose" anything or anyone, and in fact GAINED new friendships and deepened existing ones.

~Kate~

does that mean that people that call children "baggage" are  not being sensitive? ::) let's not change the meaning of the thread here.  you know what i meant. 

urban dictionary.  take your pick. 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=baggage

All I want to know is how many "r's" are there in

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl?

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 23, 2007, 12:04:00 AM
All I want to know is how many "r's" are there in

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl?

not enough  ha ha ha ha ha ;)

Interesting word, this "choice". This becomes a great word to discuss because of how broadly it can and is interpreted. When someone says "I had no choice", it does not mean, to me, that they literally had no choice, it means that the choice they picked was their best choice. So much so that any other choice would seem stupid.

If in fact only one option is available, that is not a choice and is indeed a rare event. When someone says, "I  had to transition, I had no choice", they don't mean there was literally no other choice. Of course they could have chosen not to. And with that choice they get the consequences of that choice. So when someone says, "I had no choice", it's a metaphor meaning that it was the best choice for them at the time. Not everyone is going to see things that way.

When I went full time I had a choice. I could have tried to live without killing myself. I don't think it would have worked and we would not be having this nice little chat. I could have tried to keep my male face on, but to be honest I just had no desire what so ever to do so. I really preferred death to the life I was living. For me the choice was to live or die. I chose to live, even if it were hard.

How is it that others don't go full time the instant they can? Simple, they are not compelled by the life and death choice that I faced. It was not some proud moment in my life. It was the hardest time ever in my life. To finally say that "no matter what?, I am living as a woman from now on", carried huge consequences, not just for me, but for my kids, my siblings and even my exwife. It had nothing to do with personal preference or what I would have liked to do. It was a traumatic event.

If a person can steer their life into transition and not have to have the turmoil I had, I am all for it. It don't matter if it takes a few months or even a few years. I would love to have been able to guide everyone down this path instead of blazing a trail, which is much more accurate, as to what has occurred. Yeah, that baggage? Take your time and unpack it, there is stuff in there you will need. It's a tough row to hoe with no tools.

We can not choose who and what we are, but we can choose how we approach it, at least sometimes. I know there will always be those of you like me who are compelled by circumstance, but if you are not compelled, there is nothing wrong with acting with deliberate action. I do not believe that everything must be done the instant it can be. Sometimes it pays to look before we leap.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: morticia on July 23, 2007, 12:29:07 AM

Quote from: Katia on July 23, 2007, 12:07:44 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 23, 2007, 12:04:00 AM
All I want to know is how many "r's" are there in

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrl?

not enough  ha ha ha ha ha ;)

Hahaha!!

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=grrrrrrl (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=grrrrrrl)

Quote1.     grrrrrrl     
a somewhat agressive girl, causing riots, kicking your ass

dont call your girlfriend a grrrrrrl, it will freak her out if she has the potential to be one.
tags agressive girl causing riots kicking your ass dangerous

Ageless Amazon Goddess Warrior kick riot grrrrrrl ass every time, grashopper.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.swapsale.com%2FAmazon_Picture_2.jpg&hash=00974e7c3fb5c5abeea17eaf975ab9d450916de8)

Quote from: regina on July 22, 2007, 07:15:24 PM

Quote from: Mawd on July 22, 2007, 01:54:39 AM
For me it technically was a choice but also in the same way that you can choose to punch yourself in the face or choose not to.

I don't even understand people who don't go FT as soon as is humanly possible, only after two months or so after coming to terms I transitioned comfortably, why would I leave it any longer? It just hurt too much to do anything but.

I'd almost forgotten how bad GID pain is.

An important part of being a 'staff member' of a trans forum (whoopee) is to have some empathy for people who are in situations different than your own. If you don't understand any reasons why someone wouldn't go FT as soon as possible, perhaps it's time to think about it some more and put yourself in someone else's position. Maybe you're finally of an age where you can start viewing the world through something other than your own narrow experience. It would make you a far more interesting woman if you could.

ciao,
Gina M.

Drop the attitude.

Quote from: AshleyMichelle on July 22, 2007, 11:29:12 PM
at this point in my life, the pain my going ft would cause others outweighs the benefits of finally being who i was born to be.  the older you get, the harder it is, and thats just mho.

i will go as far as i can within the confines that i have helped build.  in my situation, it just cant be all about me.  i wish it could, because i truly feel like i'm running out of time.  perhaps there really is some cosmic equity for the injustices we have on earth.  or maybe this is the one shot you have, and then thats it (although i dont really believe that).

or maybe i'm just drunk and depressed, and will go back to repression city in the morning.

Wow, I know exactly what you are talking about. Trying to be delicate about this process is an ever increasing task of trying to do the right thing for everybody. Time was a huge factor for me. I was simply running out. I also realised I was delaying the inevitable. Once I realised that, I decided why waste more time? If I am going to do it sooner or later I may as well get started and get it over with while I have a few good years left. Being 39 and tied up with kids and a spouse and a job seem like impossible hurdles. The older you get, the harder it gets. I agree with that 100%. Only you know if things will come to a head in the future and whether or not you will eventually pull the pin on that transition grenade. It actually takes less effort for me to give in then it did to keep fighting it and wondering. My mental state had gone awry, I was a zombie lost in some nether world stuck between a rock and a hard place. I just decided to change my outlook and move to another place. Now I am not stuck, but I do have a arduous journey ahead me no doubt, but I am no longer in a depressed limbo.


I realised that sooner or later it did have to be about me. I needed to get "well". I have lived my life for others for so long, giving and sharing and being what they wanted. Eventually you run out and need to refresh your reserves. Screw depression and screw being upset and sad. If people in my life do not understand that is their decision, not mine. If they want to tell me that this was "my choice", so be it. I didn't choose this. I am just playing out the hand that was dealt to me, and I hate losing so I am going to do my best and do it right. I didnt choose this anymore than an African American chose to be black. We are born the way we are and either we can accept it and move on, or deny and fight a losing battle and stay depressed because we are not getting anywhere. There is your choice. Now choose.

Your attitude is targeted, mine is universal.

Quote from: regina on July 22, 2007, 10:30:48 PM

Quote from: Rachael on July 22, 2007, 07:21:57 PM
why NOT go ft asap? surely sooner = less pain? but this topic isnt about ft date, OR mauds sensitivity which is cronically low, by medical standards btw.

plus shes #chat staff, not forum staff, her forum ranting and raving is entirely out of hours ;)

Rachael,

Thanks, I've noticed the chronically low sensitivity of that person which is a sign that I don't want to 'chat' with them.

This is totally undignified of me, but I just spit my screwdriver all over the screen and am now rolling on the floor.
No offense to you Mawd, hon. I can be a real 'arse' at times too.

Quote from: regina on July 23, 2007, 11:45:27 AM

Quote from: Nero on July 23, 2007, 11:37:33 AM

Quote from: regina on July 22, 2007, 10:30:48 PM

Quote from: Rachael on July 22, 2007, 07:21:57 PM
why NOT go ft asap? surely sooner = less pain? but this topic isnt about ft date, OR mauds sensitivity which is cronically low, by medical standards btw.

plus shes #chat staff, not forum staff, her forum ranting and raving is entirely out of hours ;)

Rachael,

Thanks, I've noticed the chronically low sensitivity of that person which is a sign that I don't want to 'chat' with them.

This is totally undignified of me, but I just spit my screwdriver all over the screen and am now rolling on the floor.
No offense to you Mawd, hon. I can be a real 'arse' at times too.

Oopsie, sounds like I owe you a screwdriver.

ciao bambino,
Gina M.

That's a date. ;)

Quote from: regina on July 22, 2007, 10:30:48 PMFor some, who transition and are total narcissists, they don't think about that and just have the attitude that everyone has to adjust immediately or they aren't worth having in their life or that everyone else is a ->-bleeped-<- because they didn't totally understand from the get go.

You just described my personal attitude to transition perfectly, thankyou.


On a more serious note (even though I meant that) The thing is that I'm not really invested in this forum or any of you and tbh I have no reason to be, I have better things to do, if you can't deal with that then ignore me and get on with your life, getting in a tizzle over it is rather infantile and hints at underlying jealousy.

If my involvement with this forum was all about me I'd dictate my life to you all, however I just express my views and thoughts in the odd thread and how you can chastise me for doing that as a young transitioner who basically by their own admission had a cakewalk of a transition boggles my mind, I've never suggested that it's easy for everyone only that with the perspective I have gained I would have sacrificed everything to get to where I am now as maybe that may help people to have the courage to do something about their gender issues.

Quote from: regina on July 23, 2007, 11:22:06 AM

Quote from: Mawd on July 23, 2007, 11:17:57 AM
Your attitude is targeted, mine is universal.

Your only universe is yourself, sweetie. That's painfully obvious from every post you make on this forum. But no one has to be that way and people do grow out it.

ciao,

Gina M.

Why thankyou for opening my eyes I was under the impression that my "universe" included my friends family and fellow students aka a real life, I'm sorry I don't let a bunch of TS's on a forum into my heart but that's simply something I will never do.

You're welcome.


tbh I don't really remember pissing you off so this is a little weird, if you're blaming me for essentially not being emo then that's pretty messed up.

edit: just remembered you're ignoring me, so you can't read this, oh well.

Quote from: Mawd on July 23, 2007, 01:29:49 PM
On a more serious note (even though I meant that) The thing is that I'm not really invested in this forum or any of you and tbh I have no reason to be, I have better things to do, if you can't deal with that then ignore me and get on with your life, getting in a tizzle over it is rather infantile and hints at underlying jealousy.

I don't know. Conversation is conversation, debate is debate, and I don't think just because someone has a 'tizzle' with you indicates jealously.

Quote from: regina on July 23, 2007, 03:20:55 PM
I just want to mention that, trying not to hurt others by not going forward with something you need to do (and only you can know that) is sometimes a sign others are being used as a crutch to not transition. That will hurt them more in the long run.

Wise words. I am living proof of this warning. Take note.

I don't think it was a crutch exactly, as I truly couldn't face (at first) the consequences of a transition. But I also, in the back of my mind, really knew I was just gathering up the courage to do it, trying to find a way around my (very valid) fears. And I knew someday I would. And eventually I did.

And the one complaint my wife now has is, "it's not that I don't understand that you had to do this, but why did you lie to me all those years and tell me you wouldn't do it then? Why couldn't you have just admitted to yourself you had to do this, and done it sooner? Then we both would have had more time to figure out what to do with the rest of our lives."

~Kate~

Posted on: July 23, 2007, 03:46:38 PM

---

Quote from: Nero on July 23, 2007, 03:41:18 PM

Quote from: Mawd on July 23, 2007, 01:29:49 PM
On a more serious note (even though I meant that) The thing is that I'm not really invested in this forum or any of you and tbh I have no reason to be, I have better things to do, if you can't deal with that then ignore me and get on with your life, getting in a tizzle over it is rather infantile and hints at underlying jealousy.

I don't know. Conversation is conversation, debate is debate, and I don't think just because someone has a 'tizzle' with you indicates jealously.

And besides, a lot of this thread is all getting dangerously close to being personal attacks and challenging people rather than issues... can we please stick to topics?

~Kate~

I never thought of transition as a choice.  Anyone that chooses to transition is mental.  I transitioned because I had no alternative.

Quote from: Nero on July 23, 2007, 03:41:18 PM

Quote from: Mawd on July 23, 2007, 01:29:49 PM
On a more serious note (even though I meant that) The thing is that I'm not really invested in this forum or any of you and tbh I have no reason to be, I have better things to do, if you can't deal with that then ignore me and get on with your life, getting in a tizzle over it is rather infantile and hints at underlying jealousy.

I don't know. Conversation is conversation, debate is debate, and I don't think just because someone has a 'tizzle' with you indicates jealously.

I came to the conclusion due to a process of elimination, I don't ever remember pissing regina off and she goes off at me quite randomly for no real reason, usually i have to personally insult someone to provoke them into taking such an attitude.

Yes, of course transitioning is a choice.  For me it was a very simple two-way choice.  I could choose to transition, or I could choose to die.

Quote from: Fer on July 23, 2007, 05:26:18 PM
I never thought of transition as a choice.  Anyone that chooses to transition is mental.  I transitioned because I had no alternative.

Thus people with a different definition of choice than you should not be allowed to transition as they are mental? (since mental cases + transition is not ok by SOC).

btw do you think all the people who have said in this thread that they think of it as a choice are mental?

Quote from: Mawd on July 23, 2007, 05:39:29 PM

Quote from: Nero on July 23, 2007, 03:41:18 PM

Quote from: Mawd on July 23, 2007, 01:29:49 PM
On a more serious note (even though I meant that) The thing is that I'm not really invested in this forum or any of you and tbh I have no reason to be, I have better things to do, if you can't deal with that then ignore me and get on with your life, getting in a tizzle over it is rather infantile and hints at underlying jealousy.

I don't know. Conversation is conversation, debate is debate, and I don't think just because someone has a 'tizzle' with you indicates jealously.

I came to the conclusion due to a process of elimination, I don't ever remember pissing regina off and she goes off at me quite randomly for no real reason, usually i have to personally insult someone to provoke them into taking such an attitude.

Ah The hazards of being an opinionated person. You never know who or how many you've pissed off. Sure beats holding your tongue though. :P

Posted on: July 24, 2007, 12:30:48 PM

---

Quote from: taru on July 24, 2007, 12:27:24 PM

Quote from: Fer on July 23, 2007, 05:26:18 PM
I never thought of transition as a choice.  Anyone that chooses to transition is mental.  I transitioned because I had no alternative.

Thus people with a different definition of choice than you should not be allowed to transition as they are mental? (since mental cases + transition is not ok by SOC).

btw do you think all the people who have said in this thread that they think of it as a choice are mental?

I don't think that's what Fer was implying. I think she was saying that no one in their right mind would volunteer for this.

isnt opinion EXACTLY the subject though regina?

It's always something.  The wife, the children, the mortgage, the car, the dogs, money, this, that.  Absurd illenesses that are invented to justify why transition isnt doable.  But oh surprise, some of these same peeps claim to be stealth & fulltime.  > noddes twice<  ::)

age is a key factor:
i have no morgage, car, kids, spouse, dog/hampster...

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 24, 2007, 09:40:28 AM
Yes, of course transitioning is a choice.  For me it was a very simple two-way choice.  I could choose to transition, or I could choose to die.

Same with me.  Transition or die? 

Quote from: morticia on July 24, 2007, 10:18:21 PM
Wow!  That's pretty awesome because that's exactly how I feel right now.  The outer wall of lies that I hide behind is crumbling fast.  It's like that commercial where the man and woman are walking along inspecting a dam and spot a leak.  The guy takes his chewing gum and sticks it over the leak, they look at each other and nod in approval of the repair and carry on.
As they walk away all happy with themselves the gum blows off and the leak becomes much worse.

LOL, yep...

I once said that, "NOT transitioning is like trying to hold your breath... for 42 years," lol...

Sooner or later...

~Kate~

i had no choice personally, i had no life, no friends, no self worth. i didnt have a life till i transitioned.

Posted on: July 25, 2007, 10:28:07 AM

---

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 07:36:01 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 18, 2007, 07:26:17 PM

Quote from: Sandi on July 18, 2007, 02:27:51 PM

QuoteI don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us.

Probably because it isn't an "absolute need" for everyone. Nor is everyone with GID that doesn't have surgery, unhappy with their "choice" to not transition.

We (or I anyway) get that it is an absolute need for you. I also get it, that for the transsexual person I mentioned earlier from Milwaukee, did not have an "absolute need" to transition. That was her choice.  ;)

IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

Seconded!

tink :icon_chick:

a'men....

if it doesnt hurt like crazy, if it doesnt stop your life from onset of the feelings whenever that is, till you do something the hell about it, you my friend, are lucky, you arnt transexual, you just deeply want to be to escape some part of your life.

Quote from: Rachael on July 25, 2007, 10:33:35 AM
i had no choice personally, i had no life, no friends, no self worth. i didnt have a life till i transitioned.

Posted on: July 25, 2007, 10:28:07 AM

---

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 07:36:01 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 18, 2007, 07:26:17 PM

Quote from: Sandi on July 18, 2007, 02:27:51 PM

QuoteI don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us.

Probably because it isn't an "absolute need" for everyone. Nor is everyone with GID that doesn't have surgery, unhappy with their "choice" to not transition.

We (or I anyway) get that it is an absolute need for you. I also get it, that for the transsexual person I mentioned earlier from Milwaukee, did not have an "absolute need" to transition. That was her choice.  ;)

IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

Seconded!

tink :icon_chick:

a'men....

if it doesnt hurt like crazy, if it doesnt stop your life from onset of the feelings whenever that is, till you do something the hell about it, you my friend, are lucky, you arnt transexual, you just deeply want to be to escape some part of your life.

Your view is simplistic. A person can have G.I.D without being a transsexual.

Those who have gender identity problem but does not have a clear choice on what they can do to alleviate their problems are not the lucky one.

If your only solution is to transition or die, than you are lucky because it is a simple choice to make.

It could be much harder  to carry on and struggle with one's self identity with no clear way out.

easily actually.
a dysphoria, or dissconection with something, can be multifaceted. it can be serious, or not, i belive your view that gid = ts is the simplistic one...


belive me, nobody here is more lucky than the other.

/me shrugs

on my worst enemy? i might ;)


R :police:

i can swim ;)

R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on July 25, 2007, 10:33:35 AM
i had no choice personally, i had no life, no friends, no self worth. i didnt have a life till i transitioned.

Posted on: July 25, 2007, 10:28:07 AM

---

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 07:36:01 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 18, 2007, 07:26:17 PM

Quote from: Sandi on July 18, 2007, 02:27:51 PM

QuoteI don't understand why people don't get that the absolute need to transition is what defines us.

Probably because it isn't an "absolute need" for everyone. Nor is everyone with GID that doesn't have surgery, unhappy with their "choice" to not transition.

We (or I anyway) get that it is an absolute need for you. I also get it, that for the transsexual person I mentioned earlier from Milwaukee, did not have an "absolute need" to transition. That was her choice.  ;)

IMNSHO and by definition, without the overwhelming need to transition that afflicts transsexuals, the person is not transsexual.

Seconded!

tink :icon_chick:

you just deeply want to be to escape some part of your life.

Or they have G.I.D.

next time, dont quote half my post, which makes a TOTALLY different statement alone...
R :police:

Quote from: Yvonne on July 25, 2007, 03:17:07 AM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 24, 2007, 09:40:28 AM
Yes, of course transitioning is a choice.  For me it was a very simple two-way choice.  I could choose to transition, or I could choose to die.

Same with me.  Transition or die? 

That sounds very absolute and complete! Transition or die! As if. Thats a terrible way to think. There are always other options. Its stupid how people get caught up in something and think death is the only way out. Believe me if you can avoid death you should but to die because you cant transition is ridiculous and defeats the purpose of having life in the first place. Life is where we figure all this stuff out and make the most of it even if we are not happy. Death is where you get no second chances and experience nothing. I would rather something than nothing even if it was just pain. Like the Bhuddists say "All life is Dhuka!". Meaning all life is suffering. There are just different levels of suffering the further away from pleasure you are.

Quote from: Jeannette on July 24, 2007, 05:34:09 PM
It's always something.  The wife, the children, the mortgage, the car, the dogs, money, this, that.  Absurd illenesses that are invented to justify why transition isnt doable.  But oh surprise, some of these same peeps claim to be stealth & fulltime.  > noddes twice<  ::)

Non-transsexual peeps will make endless excuses to avoid transition.  In my view, this is what is stupid.

Quote from: Rachael on July 26, 2007, 06:17:41 PM
next time, dont quote half my post, which makes a TOTALLY different statement alone...
R :police:

avoiding i seee...  :o

Quote from: Natalie Carole on July 26, 2007, 08:08:44 PM

Quote from: Yvonne on July 25, 2007, 03:17:07 AM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 24, 2007, 09:40:28 AM
Yes, of course transitioning is a choice.  For me it was a very simple two-way choice.  I could choose to transition, or I could choose to die.

Same with me.  Transition or die? 

That sounds very absolute and complete! Transition or die! As if. Thats a terrible way to think. There are always other options. Its stupid how people get caught up in something and think death is the only way out. Believe me if you can avoid death you should but to die because you cant transition is ridiculous and defeats the purpose of having life in the first place. Life is where we figure all this stuff out and make the most of it even if we are not happy. Death is where you get no second chances and experience nothing. I would rather something than nothing even if it was just pain. Like the Bhuddists say "All life is Dhuka!". Meaning all life is suffering. There are just different levels of suffering the further away from pleasure you are.

Gee, I don't know.  "Death is where you get no second chances and experience nothing."  That doesn't sound that bad compared to a living hell.  Like both C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien said, "There are things that are worse than dying."  It's interesting that you quote the Bhuddists since they pursue Nervana which is complete nothingness.  But then, it might be that you and I are looking at life from opposite ends of the road.  Perhaps some day you will change your mind.

Quote from: Natalie Carole on July 26, 2007, 08:08:44 PM
Transition or die! As if. Thats a terrible way to think. There are always other options. Its stupid how people get caught up in something and think death is the only way out...

I've said all these things once myself, many years ago when I was terrified of what I knew was coming for me. I posted some pretty nasty rants on other forums, calling Transition or Death! people cowards, wasting a precious life because of something so silly as gender. "There's more to life than changing your sex!" etc.... you know the idea.

A few years later, I transitioned. I didn't hate my male life, as so many TSs say. It wasn't unbearable that I was a male, it was unbearable that I wasn't a female. My life had run it's course, it was empty, void... there just wasn't anywhere else to hide. I shattered the delusions I was hiding in, and there was just no place left to go.

It's a bit like exposing Satna Claus, or a religion you were raised in and always just believed because everyone Said So. Once you do that, it's over. You can't go back. Once you SEE your life, in it's entirety, there's just nothing else TO do except transition.

At least that's how I felt...

~Kate~

I feel exactly that way about it, Kate, you said it so well. You said it perfectly. Except that I hate my alleged maleness, hate it with a burning passion, as much as I love my femaleness. I know this is kind of unbalanced, and I have reason to anticipate that once my womanhood is more firmly established in the eyes of society through transition, I will be on a firmer basis for seeking balance in my emotions about gender. It's being treated as male by others--with all the assumptions about what that gender identification supposedly means, such as separating me from the womanhood I share with other women--that gives me the heebie jeebies. I was weak before, it took me this long to become strong enough to say No to everyone trying to impose maleness on me. Like "the Japan that can say No," I've finally developed into the trans woman that can say No.

I cannot see levels of GID and transsexualism as fixed or absolute categories. This stuff can evolve over time. Even when I dropped the denial of my GID (as Kate described above, once you've opened your eyes to the reality, it is not possible to go back to deluding yourself about it), I did not want to admit I was (gasp) transsexual and on my way to SRS. But once I began consciously walking this path, it soon became clear that transsexual is exactly what I am.

It's in the nature of GID to get stronger over time, until it's really unbearable. I had to drop denial of my GID in the first place because it had kept getting stronger for years and would not leave me alone. Once I let it out of the closet, it rapidly grew in intensity and now I'm saying exactly as Morticia said above, this is it, there's no going back, I would rather be dead than male. It's unbearable now, but I am doing something about it, which gives me the hope to go on living. Estrogen is my lifeline, I would no sooner give up estrogen than I would give up oxygen (the element, not the TV network). I like Oxygen too, but I can live without TV, I can't live without my womanhood.

That's just me. I do not presume to define how others are allowed to identify themselves. I do not belittle others for the difficult choices they felt they had to make. Each person's journey is unique and individual.

Perhaps you have missed it, but there's a new thread I created which is intended for those of you who believe that transition is a choice. 

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,16870.0.html


I would love to hear your insights on this matter if it isn't too much to ask of course. 


tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Tink on July 18, 2007, 03:24:49 AM

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM

Transitioning is a choice

I beg your pardon, "again"?  ???

Transition can't be a choice.  If someone considers transition to be a choice, then that person ISN'T TS, plain and simple.  A true transsexual WILL transition.  I highly recommend this thread to enlighten those of you who think that transition is a choice. 

Transsexuals will transition (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2610.0.html)


But.. wait...now that I think about it, yes transition is one of the two alternatives available for any true TS, the other choice is to blow your brains out with a gun!

*sighs*

tink :icon_chick:

Exactly! Good point Tink :)

not sure if this argument can be won... the choice camp and no choice camps will simply bicker till its locked :)


R :police:

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 27, 2007, 09:21:49 AM

Quote from: Natalie Carole on July 26, 2007, 08:08:44 PM

Quote from: Yvonne on July 25, 2007, 03:17:07 AM

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 24, 2007, 09:40:28 AM
Yes, of course transitioning is a choice.  For me it was a very simple two-way choice.  I could choose to transition, or I could choose to die.

Same with me.  Transition or die? 

That sounds very absolute and complete! Transition or die! As if. Thats a terrible way to think. There are always other options. Its stupid how people get caught up in something and think death is the only way out. Believe me if you can avoid death you should but to die because you cant transition is ridiculous and defeats the purpose of having life in the first place. Life is where we figure all this stuff out and make the most of it even if we are not happy. Death is where you get no second chances and experience nothing. I would rather something than nothing even if it was just pain. Like the Bhuddists say "All life is Dhuka!". Meaning all life is suffering. There are just different levels of suffering the further away from pleasure you are.

Gee, I don't know.  "Death is where you get no second chances and experience nothing."  That doesn't sound that bad compared to a living hell.  Like both C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien said, "There are things that are worse than dying."  It's interesting that you quote the Bhuddists since they pursue Nervana which is complete nothingness.  But then, it might be that you and I are looking at life from opposite ends of the road.  Perhaps some day you will change your mind.

Please, leave Budddhism out of this, it is not dogmatic and most Westereners, including myself, and I consider myself a novice Buddhist, have no concept of what Buddhism is all about. Nirvana is not 'complete nothingness' and life isn't complete Dukha.

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 30, 2007, 09:02:06 AM
Nirvana is not 'complete nothingness' and life isn't complete Dukha.

You are, of course, correct.  Nirvana is a state that we cannot comprehend unless we have achieved it.

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 30, 2007, 09:17:51 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 30, 2007, 09:02:06 AM
Nirvana is not 'complete nothingness' and life isn't complete Dukha.

You are, of course, correct.  Nirvana is a state that we cannot comprehend unless we have achieved it.

And even then, it's not something that can be "comprehended" or achieved.

It's more like realizing something that always was.

And, to tie that into this thread, it's the same with being female: the harder you TRY to realize it, the more you search for validation and "proof" and things you can hang your knowingness on, the further that knowingness flees from you.

Once you just stop running, and just Let Go... you see that it was just always there.

And THAT kind of truth is just something you can never escape from again. It's everything, it's unquestionable, it's YOU.

And THATS why transitioning wasn't a choice for me. And why my life just STOPPED suddenly unless I did it.

~Kate~

Posted on: July 30, 2007, 09:45:46 AM

---

Quote from: asiangurliee on July 18, 2007, 03:05:51 AM
PS: I wonder if all transgender people kill themselves when they couldn't transition and hormones were not available?  I have doubts about that. Do I think they were happy? No, but did they all choose to kill themselves because they couldn't transition and take hormones and have surgeries? I don't think so.

That's a GREAT point, and speaking for myself only...

I obviously made it through 42 years without transitioning or killing myself. One reason I avoided suicide was because I just never believed I COULD transition. I didn't even know about it (beyond Jerry Springer type info) for decades, and once I learned more I STILL didn't believe I could have a normal, female life. I was kinda just sitting around, hanging on to this shred of hope that somehow, someday a magic pill would be invented that WOULD work perfectly.

So somehow, not having the possibility to fix things (yet) kept me going. Sure, it was tragic that I was trapped as a guy, but I had no choice, ya know? Because I had no choice, I could live with doing that, trying to eek out a glimpses of a female life from within a male one as best I could... and waiting for that magic pill to be invented someday to save me.

But once I learned more about the transition process, and realized it COULD work... that a female life was an actual possibility... and this was the ONLY way I'd ever have it... there was just no way I could avoid trying. Once I knew I COULD transition, and it might work, I couldn't turn my back on that chance without basically committing emotional suicide.

Through age 42, I got by in saying, "Not Yet." But once I KNEW it was a real possibility, any more delay would have meant saying "No" to living as a female.

And while I could live with saying, "Not Yet"... I couldn't live with saying, "No."

~Kate~

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 30, 2007, 09:17:51 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on July 30, 2007, 09:02:06 AM
Nirvana is not 'complete nothingness' and life isn't complete Dukha.

You are, of course, correct.  Nirvana is a state that we cannot comprehend unless we have achieved it.

Nirvana is 'extinction of the self into the supreme being' by definition. If you are extinct then you cannot comprehend anything. You will never reach Nirvana and live to tell about it. Its a trap! That is the path to enlightenment. Dont kid yourself! To find freedom one must go around death. Not into it.
And all life is suffering. But it is not complete suffering- Yes that would be Hell.
Anyway I just dont like people talking about killing themselves. Thats all. I feel sorry that some people have such low self esteems when they cant be who they want to be or who they are. I cant stand all the male stereotypes that have been placed on me since birth. And it takes lifetimes to erase them from your ego and personality. But as a community we have each other for support so transition should be a whole lot quicker and easier as a result. Death for me is not an option it is complete in that it would be a miserable failure of me to go that way. I will avoid it at all costs to be the woman I know I am. I will try not to hurt anyone else if I can though. But get if you get in my watch out! I feel I have a right to be true to myself.

Quote from: Kate on July 30, 2007, 10:13:13 AM
I obviously made it through 42 years without transitioning or killing myself. One reason I avoided suicide was because I just never believed I COULD transition. I didn't even know about it (beyond Jerry Springer type info) for decades, and once I learned more I STILL didn't believe I could have a normal, female life.

That's exactly how it happened with me (though I somehow hung on for over 45 years). I had known all along I should have been a woman, but had gotten into the habit of telling myself: Never gonna happen, it's impossible, just forget about it. Which somehow allowed me to manage the GID temporarily. Once the GID grew stronger and stronger, it pretty much pushed me into learning more about what was happening to me. My subconscious began sending me various signals, although as I started wearing more and more feminine things, I kept denying at first that I was doing it.

Even when I finally gave up denial and said to myself, "Yeah, I'm transgender all right," at first I had no idea of what to do about it. All I could do was acknowledge that this was my condition. I used the word "transgender" at first because the idea of being transsexual still kind of scared me. It took I don't know maybe a year after that before I realized the word "transgender" was pointless and I'm definitely transsexual, and yes I need to transition all the way, op and everything.

I didn't know about Jerry Springer because I don't watch TV, in fact I was not in contact with any queer community or any source of information about all this for many years, so I stayed ignorant and just told myself I want to be a woman although I can't. Thus I held it in suspended animation for all that time, through ignorance.

QuoteI was kinda just sitting around, hanging on to this shred of hope that somehow, someday a magic pill would be invented that WOULD work perfectly.

I used to have a fantasy there would be a machine where I go into it, close the door, and turn it on, and the female me would walk out.

QuoteSo somehow, not having the possibility to fix things (yet) kept me going. Sure, it was tragic that I was trapped as a guy, but I had no choice, ya know? Because I had no choice, I could live with doing that, trying to eek out a glimpses of a female life from within a male one as best I could... and waiting for that magic pill to be invented someday to save me.

This describes very well how I existed for all that time. I lived the inner life of a woman vicariously, I got involved in feminist causes which allowed me to hang around with women talking about women's points of view, since I felt that within me anyway. Everything I paid attention to for years was about women.

QuoteBut once I learned more about the transition process, and realized it COULD work... that a female life was an actual possibility... and this was the ONLY way I'd ever have it... there was just no way I could avoid trying. Once I knew I COULD transition, and it might work, I couldn't turn my back on that chance without basically committing emotional suicide.

Exactly. Once --seemingly by chance-- I heard a speaker give a definition of transgender and suddenly I knew what was going on in me. I found out that it had a name, it was a field of study, and there were communities for it. When I finally owned up to it, I began reading whatever I could find on the subject, and learned about transition. Once I had that knowledge, transition was simply a foregone conclusion.

The analogy is when the Communist regimes were all falling in the year 1989, I heard political scientists on NPR saying as long as people live under absolute totalitarian repression, they will not rebel because they think it's hopeless. But with glasnost the system eased up a little, people tasted a little freedom, and they demanded more... and soon they rose and tore the Berlin Wall down. It's an exact analogy for what I went through.

QuoteThrough age 42, I got by in saying, "Not Yet." But once I KNEW it was a real possibility, any more delay would have meant saying "No" to living as a female.

And while I could live with saying, "Not Yet"... I couldn't live with saying, "No."

That's a great way to put it! Very well said!

Well? It's nice to see after only ten pages, this is all settled....laff. It seems the only thing settled is that a lot of people seem to know who is and who is not TS, and this should not be taken lightly. All these psychologists, shrinks, medical doctors, endocrinologists and a whole host of people have been looking for a way to definitively determine who is and who is not transsexual, when all they needed to do was come here. We don't need SOC anymore. Just send people here, within a few posts our resident experts can immediately tell you if you are transsexual or not. But I must tell you, they are very stingy with their letters. It seems only they are TS and a few elite others who see things just like them.

How they got this knowledge is still unknown. It must be divine or they were just born with it, not sure. None of them needed to go to college and get a degree in psychology or psychiatry either. Study transsexuals? Who needs it when one is divinely graced with knowledge. I for one feel very lucky to be here, because I know I am being told what is right and true about me, even though no one here really knows anything about me.

I do know this. There is nothing in this world that "all" of anyone does. There is no group of people in any category that all behave in the same way. So it's really nice to know how "all" transsexuals behave. We are 100% predictable and can be diagnosed right here. I swear, it's the only reason I come here. And I know they are selfless people too, because they ask nothing in return. Why they are not invested at all in this forum, yet are willing to dedicate so much time to diagnosing everyone. And the best part is that all these experts are very modest, you can tell because of their reputation. They don't like showing they care. It might look as if they are invested.

In any event, now that this is all settled, after only ten pages of posts. I think we can pretty much retire this thread and thank all of those who provided us with the "right" answers. I know I for one, am grateful.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 02, 2007, 06:57:54 AM
Well? It's nice to see after only ten pages, this is all settled....laff. It seems the only thing settled is that a lot of people seem to know who is and who is not TS, and this should not be taken lightly. All these psychologists, shrinks, medical doctors, endocrinologists and a whole host of people have been looking for a way to definitively determine who is and who is not transsexual, when all they needed to do was come here. We don't need SOC anymore. Just send people here, within a few posts our resident experts can immediately tell you if you are transsexual or not. But I must tell you, they are very stingy with their letters. It seems only they are TS and a few elite others who see things just like them.

<snip>...

I think that you are being a little disingenuous Elizabeth.  While this is, and will continue to be a hotly debated issue, no where has anyone professed to be an expert on this topic let alone presented any medical credentials.  As such I believe that it is important that we all take the words written as opinion and opinion only.

We must remember that one persons view of who or what constitutes a TS, whether they will, will not, must transition will always differ from what others hold true, and yes some hold these beliefs very close to their heart and staunchly defend them as their very being is based on these beliefs.

It is obvious that this topic will not produce a definitive answer to the question posed but it is truly delightful to read the many different views on the subject and I for one hope that it continues, and that you yourself will continue to add to the mix of ideas and beliefs presented.

Steph

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 02, 2007, 06:57:54 AMour resident experts can immediately tell you if you are transsexual or not. But I must tell you, they are very stingy with their letters. It seems only they are TS and a few elite others who see things just like them.

Your sarcasm is well taken, and very much to the point--but seriously, in a transgender Yahoo group that I manage I have just gotten into a debate about "Harry Benjamin Syndrome." My objection to the HBS ideology is precisely what you said, a small group arbitrarily decides that they are the only real TS and everyone else is garbage. It's just soooo wrong in so many ways.

Here it just comes across as a sort of underlying attitude, but HBS has actually formulated it into an explicit ideology that is now being pushed aggressively in certain circles.

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 02, 2007, 06:57:54 AM
Why they are not invested at all in this forum, yet are willing to dedicate so much time to diagnosing everyone. And the best part is that all these experts are very modest...

Members here need to be a bit careful. Remember that this forum is filled with people struggling desperately with very deep, core issues... the very things which define who we are. Remember that what people say and suggest is coloured and even motivated by these issues and and the insecurities which surround them. The very foundation people build their identities on so often gets threatened... and then we see all these I'M ONE AND YOU'RE NOT! defensive reactions.

I do think everyone here means well, but when flame wars (more like nasty tickle fights here, lol) about primaries, real women, true TSs, etc. get going... personally, I learn FAAAAR more about the poster than the people their diagnosing... and how badly GID messes with people's self-esteem... then I do about TSism itself.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on August 02, 2007, 10:27:09 AM

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 02, 2007, 06:57:54 AM
Why they are not invested at all in this forum, yet are willing to dedicate so much time to diagnosing everyone. And the best part is that all these experts are very modest...

Members here need to be a bit careful. Remember that this forum is filled with people struggling desperately with very deep, core issues... the very things which define who we are. Remember that what people say and suggest is coloured and even motivated by these issues and and the insecurities which surround them. The very foundation people build their identities on so often gets threatened... and then we see all these I'M ONE AND YOU'RE NOT! defensive reactions.

I do think everyone here means well, but when flame wars (more like nasty tickle fights here, lol) about primaries, real women, true TSs, etc. get going... personally, I learn FAAAAR more about the poster than the people their diagnosing... and how badly GID messes with people's self-esteem... then I do about TSism itself.

~Kate~

I don't think the members here do it to feel superior or put anyone down though it comes off that way.
I think it's similar to the same divisions in all minority communities. The African-American community for example has many such divisions. 'Ghetto' vs 'Uncle Tom', dark skin vs light, etc
I've heard the same vehemence from some blacks against other blacks that we experience here.
The ones who 'act white' are ashamed of the 'ghetto' ones. The 'ghetto' ones accuse the 'white acting' ones of selling out to the white man - commonly known as the 'Uncle Tom' phenomenon. Etc, etc, etc

I think it's just a natural phenomenon with minority groups who are marginalized, dehumanized, and demonized by the majority. It touches a raw nerve and then they care very much about the behaviours, lives, of others in their group.
They need to separate themselves from ones who aren't like them but are perceived to be by society.
It's to be expected.

I don't think anyone is mean spirited on here, but let's be honest, there is a hierarchy in any community, *any* community.

communitys cannot exist without leaders and a leadership, people want to know what to do....


and nero: groups also self segregate. in terms of service provision, religious worship sites, personal safety in numbers and other needs, they locate in groups as its all society is. lots of interlocking groups.

Quote from: Rachael on August 02, 2007, 01:09:33 PM
communitys cannot exist without leaders and a leadership, people want to know what to do....


and nero: groups also self segregate. in terms of service provision, religious worship sites, personal safety in numbers and other needs, they locate in groups as its all society is. lots of interlocking groups.

true

Quote from: Rachael on August 02, 2007, 01:09:33 PM
communitys cannot exist without leaders and a leadership, people want to know what to do....


and nero: groups also self segregate. in terms of service provision, religious worship sites, personal safety in numbers and other needs, they locate in groups as its all society is. lots of interlocking groups.

Hierarchy is not about having leaders, its about saying if you do this or that , or if you are this or that, if you have this or have that, you are more socially acceptable in this community or that community.   

Quote from: asiangurliee on August 02, 2007, 02:50:04 PM


Hierarchy is not about having leaders, its about saying if you do this or that , or if you are this or that, if you have this or have that, you are more socially acceptable in this community or that community.   

er? since when?

QuoteA hierarchy (in Greek: Ἱεραρχία, derived from ἱερός — hieros, 'sacred', and ἄρχω — arkho, 'rule') is a system of ranking and organizing things or people, where each element of the system (except for the top element) is subordinate to a single other element.

hierarchy is system of rank... thus involving leaders, and power systems, not how acceptable something is.

Quote from: Rachael on August 02, 2007, 01:09:33 PMcommunitys cannot exist without leaders and a leadership, people want to know what to do....

That is untrue.

communism is un sustainable at a community-national level. human nature is greedy.

R :police:

funny you should say that as communist states had strong clear leadership and told people exactly what to do.

Quote from: Rachael on August 02, 2007, 03:08:45 PM

Quote from: asiangurliee on August 02, 2007, 02:50:04 PM


Hierarchy is not about having leaders, its about saying if you do this or that , or if you are this or that, if you have this or have that, you are more socially acceptable in this community or that community.   

er? since when?

QuoteA hierarchy (in Greek: Ἱεραρχία, derived from ἱερός — hieros, 'sacred', and ἄρχω — arkho, 'rule') is a system of ranking and organizing things or people, where each element of the system (except for the top element) is subordinate to a single other element.

hierarchy is system of rank... thus involving leaders, and power systems, not how acceptable something is.

since forever.

not really, russia never reached communism.
russia was a socialist nation under lenin, autocratic socialism under stalin. and down hill from there onwards...
others follow similar patterns.

R :police:

Define Communism.

Marxism according to Karl Marl has never been reached in any country or state, no one knows what a state like that would be like..

I like democratic socialism, countries like Sweden.

capitalism ftw.

R :police: