My only comment is to wonder what "now" and "tansitioned" have to do with anything? ???
I couldn't figure out men when I was supposed to BE one and I still can't figure them out 32 years post-op.
I guess that's what makes them such amusing pets ;D
I have to confess a certain obliviousness to details. Always had it, it may be worse with T.
Dennis
I notice when people change their hair, mainly because I tend to recognise people by hair... though when it comes to clothes I don't really notice... I only remember the colours.
Do I think men are "weird now"?
Actually no more so than 50 years ago. I never thought of them as "weird", but I always did see them ad different in many ways. The rough houseing, The sexual jokes, the pure raw "earthiness" of them.
Actually, in adult life after learning to appear, act etc. like them I began to understand them all to perfectly and interact with them in a normal way. I became a part of the dominant/submissive types of "games" they play with each other and even got very good at leadership roles among them, basically by becoming better at thier games then most of them were, but in the process I lost a lot. I became highly intolerant and insensitive, unemotional, quick to make decisions without sufficient information, and put more value on gain then on my own life.
Today I look at my experience in the male environment to be a double edged sword as it taought me to cope with the impossible and gave me extrodinary confidence in myself, but surpressed me me emotionally and made me insisitive to the feelings of others. It has taken me years to reverse that surpression and the more sucessful I am at it, the more I seem to have problems with myself and my life for decades. I did to many things that are no longer what I would otherwise done and I find a lot of it hard to live with now, but I am slowly winning this battle with myself.
So yes, I do consider men "Wierd" these days, but having lived being a man as a lifestyle I understand them, I simply can no longer condone some of the attitudes they have devoloped out of the necessities (or perceived necessities) of the male environment.
Terri
Those that are young have no idea how lucky they are.
If you ever can find one, look up the diagnosis for transvestism/crossdressing/transexualism in a 60' 70's medical book.
Stuff that into the head of a youngster from the back of nowhere Idaho and see what kind of psychological probelms develop--its not a pretty sight!
Leigh
I don't feel the need to compete on a masculine level. I think some of the behaviours described as masculine here may be gender identity disorder and trying to live male.
I dunno, I just figure, I'm short, I look young, I'm blond-ish and fairly hairless, I'm just not going to compete on the monkey scale. But I'm still secure in being male.
I guess it helps being a professional though, I do get some boy-bonus points for that, and I probably get forgiven for my less than rough and ready presentation.
Dennis
And it's hellish trying to function as a woman when you don't feel like one.
Dennis
Yes I think the most men a weird.
I'm always pleased when someone comments positively on my apparel and my appearance.
Sometimes I still don't notice peoples clothing, but I can tell what kind of a mood they are in. And when they are hurting I hurt for them and want to help.
Don't like to cutting anyone down but sometimes these men creatures need it. (I call it tuff love and it can be fun.) >:D
Even when I was trying to fit into a male role I never wanted to be insensitive or "macho".
I always though it was silly and often hurtful to others. The lack of caring for the feelings of others, especially their loved ones, makes me sick. When a game (sports) or going out with the boys is more important to them than there family than I think they must be brain damaged.
Maybe that's why I never liked most sports and I know that's why I've never had many good friends who were male.
I do believe there are some "gentle" men who caring and sensitive. These men seem to have it together and know what is important. And I know there are some gentle men here like the two Dennis's.
And there are a few women who are insensitive and hurtful. I have personally known a few of them too and wonder if they are not transgender's in denial.
And I'm just a CD plus... Just trying to be me.
Yes to say most men are weird is an understatement. And I know cause I "was" trying to be one.
;D
Jillieann
QuoteI never understood such as acting "macho
Oh, I understand it all right. It's a game where even if you lose you make it hardly worthwile to the winner, just to make the point.
As a youth, I was punished for losing at just about anything, It got to where I'd go to any extream to win with no regard for personal safety, and that alone desensitised me to a lot of things and affected career choices that I never should have made which desensitised me even more. I had feelings of course, but could never allow them to show or affect my judgement when at times I would have had better judgement if I had listened to those feelings.
No, being dysphoric wasn't the easiest thing in the world when you live in work in violent atmospheres. To do over again, I would have stuck to it in my early 20's rather then run from it, no matter what happened to me. No, the young these days have no idea how easy it is these days as compaired to the 60's and 70's whan a lot of good people payed the dues and even died to make the gains we live under now.
Terri
I always thought that they were weird. However, I am just now realising how thick headed they can be.
Being a mother of 3 boys who grew into being men, I see so many of the comments on situations here sometimes come to the surface.
The things coaches told them in sports would litterally drive me bonkers. Leah and I would say think for yourself and ask if you could see Jesus sitting here with you doing and saying those things, then have at it otherwise step back when called upon to participate.
Peggiann
I don't consider men weird, in fact I consider them fascinating (though amazingly simple) individuals. Even though I never considered myself a man or even bothered to try and fit in as one I don't have the "man-hatred" or "man-bashing" attitudes that I have noticed are quite prevalent in some of the TS community. Maybe it's a matter of experiences and situations that I have or haven't had, being on the younger end of the spectrum and growing up in and around SF.
I have always been extremely attracted to men both sexually and socially. A lot of my deeper friendships are still with men, although they do seem a little more insensitive or oblivious to the feelings and needs of others. I contribute this mainly to the fact that they are pressured to be more shut off from their own emotions. However, when praise or compliments are given by a man they seem more genuine to me than those given by women.
Women are more concerned about hurting another person's feelings and so, in my experience, they tend to candy-coat responses to other people more than men.
One thing I have noticed about men that I do find rather amusing is that as long as you let them FEEL as though they are in control they are very easily led. Stroke their ego a little, make them feel smart and attractive, and there is no length they won't go to for your attention...whether or not they want something
QuoteI consider them fascinating (though amazingly simple)
ROFLMAO
Can't type - tears of laughter!
They don't even make good pets.
You have ta feed em.
clean up after em
try to train em
give up trying to train em
put the seat down and flush after em
try to ignore their whining when they are sick
difference between men and puppies? Puppies grow up and quit whining!
They have outdoor plumbing
They smell funny
They are hairy--everywhere or so I am told
Quote from: Leigh on December 17, 2005, 12:57:35 AM
They don't even make good pets.
You have ta feed em.
clean up after em
try to train em
give up trying to train em
put the seat down and flush after em
try to ignore their whining when they are sick
difference between men and puppies? Puppies grow up and quit whining!
They have outdoor plumbing
They smell funny
They are hairy--everywhere or so I am told
Yeah, but some of us are cute :)
And I don't even pee on the floor.
Dennis
Quote
As a preop and as a post op (1999) TS, I have always thought about gender differences. My biggest realization upon transitioning was that there really wasn't a huge difference between the genders and that, contrary to what a lot of docs and much of society thinks, most of the supposid differences were in the "nurture" rather than "nature"" column. I see that much of what people assume about me as a female echoes what their general stereotype of women is. I do wonder why men don't object to being referred to as being shallow unemotional uncompassionate beings. We often say men are weird but ignore the fact that many men LIKE playing their neanderthal roles. I admit it....that IS weird. I don't understand men who will watch football game after football game on TV on weekends while, at the same time, know their wives aren't interested in football. This is a person who loves you...why not do something mutually enjoyable? Anyway, if we're to pick on men as being weird, there are probably just as many nonsensical things women do...things like worry about their appearance or get upset about trivialities. I sometimes look at women who act overtly silly or baby-ish as being just as weird as men. When I was transitioning, I found myself acting out these stereotypes but have since grown wiser. Why must both genders adhere to their stereotypical roles so firmly? I realize that there is comfort there and it is, after all, what society expects....but wouldn't everyone, as I do, enjoy the freedom to ACT however you want? The best thing about being a post op TS, in my opinion, is that women are afforded far more choices in how to act...You can be sensitive, silly, emotional, creative AND smart. Having the freedom to be that way is definitely not weird....it's wonderful.
Quote from: Teri Anne on December 17, 2005, 03:56:21 AM
The best thing about being a post op TS, in my opinion, is that women are afforded far more choices in how to act...You can be sensitive, silly, emotional, creative AND smart. Having the freedom to be that way is definitely not weird....it's wonderful.
Nicely stated, I feel the same way. If anything, how can men stand to be so limited? An analogy can be found in my closet: in the male years, I wore nothing but blue (seriously) which I think was an unconscious extention of my dysphoria (if I'm wearing blue, I must be male), but now, my closet is an absolute riot of color. Kinda sums up the whole thing.
Dawn
Gina,
"Even though I never considered myself a man or even bothered to try and fit in as one I don't have the "man-hatred" or "man-bashing" attitudes that I have noticed are quite prevalent in some of the TS community."
Yeah, ain't sterotypes grand.. quite useful things.
Course, your last paragraph is pretty much dead on target as well.
DennisInGA
Yes Dennis, sterotypes can be quite useful though very limiting things. Men are supposed to be strong, in control, good providers, and for the most part more emotionally cold. However, women are supposed to be pretty, less domineering, nurturing, more self-denying, physically weaker, more in tune with emotions(both theirs' and others').
Anyone disagree? Show me a man who wouldn't be ashamed of being a stay at home dad, have his wife bring home the money, or cry at a movie. Show me this man and I will show you a man who is thought of as "less than" by at least most of his peers.
On the other hand, show me a woman who cares nothing for her appearance or the feelings of others, puts a career above a family, thinks of herself above all others, or lifts weights. This woman is often seen as a "bitch" or a "butch".
Both of these people will probably have their sexuality questioned by those who don't know them well.
We live in confusing society that tells us that we can do or be anything we want...as long it's what everyone else wants or expects of us.
Gina, you wrote, "We live in confusing society that tells us that we can do or be anything we want...as long it's what everyone else wants or expects of us." Well put. It's almost like we live in a Twilight Zone wherein all the characters give mixed messages like, "be happy, do whatever you want," and then say, "Why are you doing that?" We see it in all circles of society but, especially, the conservative religious "right" who want to reduce government's size but want it, also, to control the actions of minorities. I wonder how much longer, if twisted thought continues, that we'll end up with fire departments burning books. Or maybe, despite conservatives' desires, it's as they themselves say, "give people freedom and they'll never want to give it up." Maybe, in time, men will discover that they, too, need to be liberated.
Quote from: Leigh on December 06, 2005, 07:07:19 PM
If you ever can find one, look up the diagnosis for transvestism/crossdressing/transexualism in a 60' 70's medical book.
NO! I mean, no thank you.
Granted I'm mostly an 80s baby but there was enough bleed though to have figured out how to hide really good and really fast.
Oh... as for men? They were weird then, still are now. For some reason that just does not seem probable to change :P
As far as good pets go... *snicker* Not even close (in my opinion of course!) Any man who would be a pet isn't near as good as my puppy (= A man to be a man though, that's worth something... I'm just not sure what ;)
QuoteA man to be a man though, that's worth something... I'm just not sure what ;)
People who know me well would say I wouldn't know what to do with a man if I had one. They are Wrong. I'd point out where the parts are, give him a wrench and explain how I like a decent car but hate grease. I know exactly what they are good for, keeping my hands clean, even though I'll probably have to supervise to make sure they get it right.
Terri
Quote from: Terri Gene on January 01, 2006, 01:33:51 AM
People who know me well would say I wouldn't know what to do with a man if I had one. They are Wrong. I'd point out where the parts are, give him a wrench and explain how I like a decent car but hate grease. I know exactly what they are good for, keeping my hands clean, even though I'll probably have to supervise to make sure they get it right.
You didn't attach a smiley to that statement though perhaps you meant to. Nevertheless, for women to demand equality and then hang onto male gender stereotypes like this really doesn't advance the cause of equality, does it? :angel:
Dawn
Quote from: DennisInGA on December 17, 2005, 05:53:09 AM
Yeah, ain't sterotypes grand.. quite useful things.
Yeah, I use stereotypes in my line of work all the time (video production.) Makes my life easier, communication with 'the audience' easier. But sometimes I feel sorry for the audience for self-imposing such tight limits on themselves and failing to see the much larger and more beautifully intricate horizon out there.
Part of my epiphany came when I realized that while I finally came to understand the unspoken and unwritten 'rules' of the hyper-predator male competitor (winning is everything, no expense is too great to achieve victory,) I felt that winning at the expense of absolutely +#<%ing over others was wrong, wrong, wrong! I can never win that game 'cause I'd never go that far to get to the top. Better to conspire with like-minded individuals to achieve without cutting out of the herd and mowing down some poor-bastard sacrifical lamb just to 'win'.
Quote from: Terri Gene on January 01, 2006, 01:33:51 AM
People who know me well would say I wouldn't know what to do with a man if I had one. They are Wrong. I'd point out where the parts are, give him a wrench and explain how I like a decent car but hate grease. I know exactly what they are good for, keeping my hands clean, even though I'll probably have to supervise to make sure they get it right.
I know what you mean. My car ("The Purple Turd") is starting to lose the Power Steering Pump. I've spoken to three of four so-called 'experts' -- none of them got the right diagnosis even though I held their hands and walked them through all the symptoms and Troubleshooting 101. But each one of 'em spouted their wrong-@$$ 'diagnosis' as if they were God's Gift to Mechanicking.
The dilemma -- waste a weekend replacing the pump and learning as I go, or waste big bucks on a self-licking-ice-cream-cone of a 'mechanic' who couldn't find his nether region with the help of a stud-finder, a borescope, and both hands.
Yeah, men are weird.
Quotestereotypes like this really doesn't advance the cause of equality, does it?
And how does it degrade equality the way I do it? whoever I ask to do something like that for me knows perfectly well I could do it better and faster on my own, I just hate cleaning my nails and wiping the blood off when I nick myself and they know that as most have seen me work.
It's pretending you can't do something that may cause harm, thats a little different then when you simply don't want to, which I don't anymore then I have to these days.
and as far as equality goes, I can out run, out jump, out drive, out ride, out shoot (if I wanted to) out fight and outwork more then 90% of the true blooded men in this country and the world for that matter as measured by the U.S. government in the many training programs I have participated in. They want equality, they gonna have to catch up.
Terri
Well here is a new sport, well maybe not, I think that there is another thread like this somewhere around.
Quote from: GinaEven though I never considered myself a man or even bothered to try and fit in as one I don't have the "man-hatred" or "man-bashing" attitudes that I have noticed are quite prevalent in some of the TS community. Maybe it's a matter of experiences and situations that I have or haven't had, being on the younger end of the spectrum and growing up in and around SF.
You may be right Gina, It does seem that for some in the TS comunity, man bashing is a way of hiding their own male upbringing. It's almost as though one is trying to cover up this fact by reacting in such away. I agree that I would never admit to my male upringing so to speak, but I would not do it at the expence of anyones feelings. My grandfather was a wonderful man, kind, caring, and loving. Weird... well may be a little, may be it was as a result of loosing a leg, fighting for his country in WW2.
Steph
Part of the venom I think is the result of the wrong upbringing, I'd say it's certainly enough of a reason to be venomous. But in my case a lot of my dislike of the male of the species was the result of early childhood, though to be honest I don't think I liked guys that much before then. But what is interesting is starting out with a great dislike of men has been tempered by finding a few that are pretty darn decent.
Nothing like taking conflicting sides of things and then shoving them in a blender.
Northern Jane "Are men weird?" is a rhetorical question! By the way I love your comments!
A man taking female hormone for 8 months probably would qualify as weird and probably would not quality as trasnsitioned.
I am a very competent sensitive guy that has servived many a lay off by surrounding myself with competent, aggressive women with balls. I had one male manager tell me I just had no balls because I do not stand up to the bullies. (Hey maybe this guy was a foutune teller?) Terri I can totally relate to your stories!
I have also seen high level women that compete in a male dominated world cut 25% of the staff so that they could get their bonus check. Do you think they would cut the aggressive dominant male or the quiet sensitive male when they reduce their staff? Would you think it wierd that a genetic woman is acting the same way as the successful alpha male?
Melissa your comments ring home in that I am guilty of not sharing my feelings with my own wife. Does this change after transition?
Northern Jane I think some women and some men are weird and insensitive. I also think some people of both sexes are fantastic.
If a weird male liked women sexually before transition will she like them sexually after transition?
QuoteIf a weird male liked women sexually before transition will she like them sexually after transition?
Whatever weird is, but in the best scientific tests it seems that what sex one desires is a set item which is natural to the person regardless of which sex the person has been attracted to during thier life span. Sexual preference doesn't change, though some people may not be discriminate about which sex they have sex with.
Such studies were done with girls and boys during childhood and beyond to determine how sexual preference develops and settles on. Transsexuals can seem a little prone to either, both or just one, but in the case of transsexuals there are a lot of factors to filter in. Though they may have been totally heterosexual before transition, some may seem to turn bisexual or homosexual after transition, but in many, that can be traced to environment and the desire to blend it.
Actually though, you might be a bit surprised at how many MtF Transsexuals are totally attracted to only women after transsition. There are many who would rather strangle a man then sleep with him. Keep an eye out, you'll see a couple or few of that type right here on Susans.
Terri
While this thread was addressed to transitioned Women, I feel compelled to comment here. In truth I am a man & always will be, I recognise I have a feminine aspect and would dearly love to express it - but not all the time (by that I mean going in public as rana, mentally I am always there). I don't believe anyone can make the statement that men are weird - there are certainly weird people about, the world seems to swarm with ignorant insensitive simple people - both men and women.
Reading back through earlier posts I guess some comments were made "toungue in cheek"
I have just been out fishing with my son & some of his friends - I would reckon that these young males would fit the stereotypes so perfectly, yet that is just one aspect of them, I know them and have known them since they were little children, and know that there is much more too them than roles they may play from time to time.
macho is a term I think is used so wrongly these days - as I understand it, its an exercise in irony, originally a latino term meaning outward culturally identified (but often misidentified) aspects of manliness but ignoring the inner qualities.
Some inner qualities of manliness I see as a sense of humour, grace under pressure, self sacrifice, defense of the weak & helpless and true heroism. Funny thing I see these as inner qualities of womenliness also :) And, those qualities I believe are held by my son & his mates.
So strutting simple macho "Neanderthals" are not really manly at all. Or if you see somebody who appears to be maybe you are reading them wrongly?
Geez this rant seems a bit disjointed but I will post it anyway, I am feeling a bit down tonight & sadly there are aspects of this thread that magnify my unhappyness
rana
'macho' actually never entered into my definition. It's the likes and dislikes and actions... Yup, weird things. Some of the things I like/do you may be hard pressed to not find weird. Such as it goes. (=
By the by, "weird" does not mean bad, just different.
I don't think men are wierd. Predictable, yes. Somewhat useful from time to time. They make lousy pets. They can be cute and sometimes very charming. Housebreaking can be a real pain. Training them takes way too much time and effort. Allright I was going to say some nice things but I guess I just can't help myself. >:D
Cassie
I've never understood men, even supposedly "being one" I still don't understand them... :icon_hahano:
I have a problem with men and yet I get along with trans people. This is a problem about my childhood and how the adult men would treat me. So, i grew up not likeing men. I took on, what was considered a mans job in the sixties, a job that I had to relate to men, sometimes in a physical way. I got as high in that field that I wanted to go and I'm still healthy. I still don't like men and just as soon not ever be around any. Am I a lesbian now? I don't know, probably.
Sheila
Unfortunately, I have a similar history and was treated badly by men as a child. I tend to be suspicious and think the worst of men unless they prove me wrong. Having lived among them, I am still surprised to discover how clumsy and insensitive many of them are. I find men who have a strong sense of entitlement (alpha males) particularly difficult to tolerate.
Dawn
QuoteHaving lived among them, I am still surprised to discover how clumsy and insensitive many of them are. I find men who have a strong sense of entitlement (alpha males) particularly difficult to tolerate.
I have to agree totally Dawn and I couldn't have put it better.
Shelley
Read the book Clan of the Cave Bear by Jean Aurel.
I believe this is a pretty good guesstimate of the structure of what passed for society then and is a reflection of why it to this day it is similiar.
Leigh
I've got that one just haven't got round to reading it yet. Is it good.
Shelley
Quote from: Leigh on January 17, 2006, 08:20:20 PM
Read the book Clan of the Cave Bear by Jean Aurel.
I believe this is a pretty good guesstimate of the structure of what passed for society then and is a reflection of why it to this day it is similiar.
I read the series many years ago and this book (the first) was the best. I agree that early society was probably similar to her depiction in the book. I have read books like this with strong female characters since childhood (Laura Ingalls Wilder etc) and always identified with the female which was how I then managed my dysphoria (hope that makes sense). Never did read Tom Sawyer and similar books and never had the interest.
Dawn
Me too, Dawn. I used to read Hardy Boys mysteries and Tom Sawyer and identify with the male characters. My mum tried to get me into Nancy Drew mysteries, but there was nothing there for me to identify with.
And I find "alpha" type males difficult to deal with as well.
Dennis
I don't think it matters whether your male or female I think alpha males are difficult to deal with.
Shelley
I dont know, I've always found the "alpha" males to be the most attractive. You just have to know how to deal with them. What you have to do is stroke their ego, flirt shamelessly and lead them around by the nostrils. In essence give them just enough of what they want to get them to give you EVERYTHING you want. It's a game of give and take and take and take. I have always enjoyed it.
You all are just toooooo funny. I have had my chuckle for the day now thank you very much!
Smiles,
Peggiann
Quote from: Dennis on December 06, 2005, 11:29:56 PM
And it's hellish trying to function as a woman when you don't feel like one.
Now ain't that the truth! ;D
Quote from: Dennis on January 18, 2006, 08:29:15 AM
I used to read Hardy Boys mysteries and Tom Sawyer and identify with the male characters.
...
And I find "alpha" type males difficult to deal with as well.
ditto. :)
To address the original topic though, yeah men can be hard to understand at times (yes I can watch football for hours on end.... heck I can't really explain it. I just like it.) But I agree with Teri Anne that this topic could be turned around and asked about women as well. I for one could never understand how you all could go shopping for hours on end, not buy anything, and then consider the day a success. ::)
I'm lost are we talking about alpha and beta gamma that kind of thing. I didnt know males had so many labels on them.
It's hard to think, which ones do I like, usually ones that are not too manly (the ones that have way too much hair all over their body and spit on the ground), definately not the wimpy kind and not the stuburn type. Just a guy that has a great body, good heart and treats me like a lady. What kind of guy is that?
Sara.
Joseph you definitely are a male if you can understand shopping. >:D ::)
Us girls just love checking out the new stuff. It's like test driving a automobile.
It's just fun. Of course it's always better when can take it home.
But you guy real can understand this cause your boys. >:D ;D
Sara
QuoteJust a guy that has a great body, good heart and treats me like a lady. What kind of guy is that?
That's an imaginary guy. >:D ;D
:)
Jillieann
I do. (some guys, not all of them)
Many guys I know (i.e.., my brother, two of my cousins, my girlfriend's husband) are just plain lazy, behave like spoiled brats, do not have any table manners, think about sex 24/7, and eat all day long.....I think this is weird, or maybe it's just a guy thing, I don't know.
tinkerbell
Heck, I haven't transitioned yet (not even hormones yet - grrrr! - trying to be patient . . . ) and I've always thought men were weird even when I thought I was one.
But now they kinda scare me too.
helen
Me too! I'm still a long ways away from transitioning, but a lot of times the way of thinking and behavior of a lot of guys I know just seems absurd. Especially how some of them talk about dating prospects and 'strategies'... it bothers (sometimes disturbs) me a lot, but I hold my tongue.
Of course, I remember doing more than my share of macho posturing before I had accepted myself and had been so insecure. I'm glad to have shed that pointless burden.
~Kaitlyn
An FTM aquaintance once looked across the table at me and said: "I just don't get y'all." refering to women in general. That sums up how I feel about men: I just don't get y'all. And yes, I think men are weird.
Quote from: Melissa on December 06, 2005, 05:27:57 PM
Living and thinking female is so much more fulfilling than I ever had it trying to live as a male.
could not have said it better my self. shaeila