So, here's an article that rings true to me: street harassment. I'm sure this happens to trans peeps a lot,m well not sure, and usually in the bad "look at the ->-bleeped-<-!" way. That certainly can take you from 60 to 0 mph in seconds flat. But, a lower level street harrasment comes when you pass and if you're lucky really pass and are anything close to pretty. You're told by random men to "smile." The last time this happened to me was in May, May 7 to be exact. I know the date cause my BF and I went to NYC the next day, wehre no one told me to smile. When I'm with him, street harassment disappears. But I look mad a lot even when I'm not and I was walking fast and the guy started walking next to me and was like "A girl is pretty as you should be smiling." Which made me angry. Even when I wasn't before.
Now, if it was the first time it happened i'd prolly be on cloud nine from the validation. But there is a point in transtion where this low-level street harassment really annoys you. I simply don't know how to deal with it, and I don't think many women do. If I don't fight off the advance, it can get out of hand. I've had a man follow me on the El, get off and continue the harassment. he had already grabbed my ass and tell me how sexy I am and blah, blah, blah. I've had unwanted kisses and it's just not right. But was it my fault cause I didn't squelch it right then and there?
However, this is one of the many things many trans women will have to eventually get used to when they start passing. Yesterday, a poster asked if their pending or possible transition was fetish-based. Well, this is something to think about. Being told to smile. It's one of the many ways men exert power and control over women. It never happens to men unless they know the person. Random women (or men generally) do not do this to men. Ever. It's one of the more unpleasant aspects of transition after it happens over and over. I could stop it (and have kinda) by not wearing makeup and not dressing the way I want. But there again I'm letting these men win because I have stopped dressing and presenting the way I want because I'm tried of the harassment. Sometimes it is just cute if the guy is generally nice.
But here's the article (the comments section says a lot)....http://www.salon.com/2013/09/13/smile_baby_the_words_no_woman_wants_to_hear/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
So what do y'all think. Is this something that is exaggerated and moreover and more specifically, do these unpleasent aspects of womanhood (lower status) make you stop and think maybe this isn't for me. Because being a woman is being on a lower totem pole. Unless you subscribe to BS Men's Rights Activists' viewpoints.
Tbh I'm not around many men, but actually I find that when I am it's mostly older men who say stuff if anyone. There's just that one type of old man, y'know? Younger men seem intimidated by me. Like they're usually visibly nervous or at least try to look like they're ignoring me, and if they are willing to talk to me it's usually kind of in a "hah, you're a woman, I can roll with that, I'm going to be suave and also reallllllly sensitive about what I say around you, never know when you'll say the wrong thing to a woman." I don't really know why... but then I look a lot more normal than I am. I hate when men try to act like they're ignoring me, it makes em feel like they hate me. :(
I could see how this could happen if you're more adventurous though. I live such a boring life, everywhere I go is shopping or for some service or something lately. Or like, the movies.
Mostly people who tell me to smile are actually older women I know well XD I hate my smile though.
Well, this might sound odd, but I ALWAYS smile. Especially when I encounter another person; I automatically smile at everyone I meet. I just do.
I have a feeling that this kind of tension between random strangers on the street might, at least in part, be geographical. Living in Portland, Oregon, I have almost never had a street encounter with a random man that could not easily be managed with a smile, a "Thank you", and an "I gotta go".
It might just be that I'm a incorrigible flirt (I am), but I have a tendency in my life to treat everyone I encounter, however briefly, as if they matter. It isn't at all unusual for some random man to speak to me on the street or in some public place, and for me to stop for a moment and have a brief conversation, a laugh, a human moment with him. I find that, strange though it may sound, sometimes when strangers say something as random as, "You should smile", what they really mean to say is, "I'm lonely; won't you take a moment to acknowledge me and remind me of my humanity?"
In my own experience, I find that people respond well to me when I respond well to them. And when some random guy speaks to me, on the street or in a pool hall, in almost every case, taking just a minute or 2 to have a human to human interaction is enough to satisfy what it is in him that inspired him to reach out to me.
I'm sorry... just an alternative perspective on the subject.
While the ass grabbing is unacceptable, something as benign as "smile more, you're very pretty" is not 'males exerting their power over women'. Christ. I find the current wave of feminism highly distasteful and it wouldn't surprise me if it chased acceptance away due to how utterly off-putting it can be.
Same with the offended-by-everything tumblrites who thrash around every time someone says something about sexual dimorphism, gender binary, etc.
Guys flirting with you comes with the territory as a woman, especially if you're lucky enough to be attractive. You signed up for it, no turning back now.
I did actually have a woman tell me I should smile years ago when I was presenting as male, she was some random old lady passing by me on the train. It was rather startling, all I could think was "screw you, I'll look as glum as I want"! ;)
Yeah, this doesn't happen to me anymore. It didn't happen often when I was seen as female but I can think of a few occasions.
When you're as old as me, the only people who tell you to smile, want to sell you dental procedures. ;) But then I'm usually grinning these days. God it is good to be me every day all day. :D ;D ::)
j
Start the day with a smile,get it over with
Well, while my experience with street-harassment hasn't been as bad as yours, I have indeed had guys asking me to smile for them, randomly stalking me for a block or so, and saying "hey" to me in a creepy way. And it almost always happens while I'm walking through lower-income sections of a city. There was this one group of guys who seriously wouldn't leave me alone while I was visiting Washington DC last month, and it was only when my mom finally walked with me that they stopped.
In my case I'm still not sure whether it's because they actually find me attractive or whether it's because they're clocking me as trans, I've been getting really mixed signals there, but yeah... as my ex Jenny said, "welcome to the world of women."
I guess what makes it scary for me is just knowing that I have almost no upper-body strength and no self-defense skills whatsoever, so if I ran into the wrong person, I'd be up s*** creek without a paddle. It's not easy feeling subordinate in terms of strength and social status. I do get afraid every time I'm walking somewhere alone.
But on the other hand, there's also the trade-off where people don't automatically perceive me as a threat anymore. That is like the #1 thing that I hated pre-transition socially, was that people, women especially, seemed scared of me for absolutely no reason. They were always quick to get defensive, unpersonable, almost as if they were automatically scared of me and emotionally closed-off just because I was male. Where now, people automatically treat me nicely, automatically perceive me as being friendly and personable.
So it's a trade-off. Being female is, by its nature, being more open and vulnerable. People just assume they can do anything to you. And while it's definitely a bit of a curse because this means that people don't respect you, and guys think they automatically own you and can say whatever they want, it's also nice to have people be more willing to be emotionally open back. And while the former definitely sucks, the later still makes it worth it for me. Every time a cashier gives me that warm welcoming smile, and doesn't immediately get defensive when I ask them a question, actually talks to me instead of just assuming that I just want to check out and be done with it, it reminds me that it's worth it.
I used to hate smiling, didn't feel I should unless I had a reason (there always had to be a reason for everything with me), plus it took too much energy. I always had everyone, man or woman constantly telling me to "Smile". It got on my nerves, and just pissed me off when I was fine before that, I simply wasn't smiling. Sometimes those that were really persistent, always guys, they'd keep bugging me about it smiling at me and of coarse I'd break and smile and it'd make their day, I guess because they thought me being so pretty that I shouldn't be so gloomy. Me smiling all the time (most of the time) is a recent thing, this year. Before that most of the time, straight face, no emotions showing at all, even with me living as a woman, I just didn't know how to smile just for the sake of it, always had to be something worth smiling about. I really don't know what brought it on, but once I started it not only does a smile on me look better, making my face prettier, but makes me feel great as well. I should've smiled more often years before. :) ;D :D ;)
As for the touching or grabbing part by total strangers, never happened to me ever. And for the smiling part when told by men, I'd only ever seen that as harmless flirting, nothing more.
Smiling is good for you. I enjoy putting a smile on someone's face. Like when I go to the Jewel/Osco they are having a lot of red alert sales. Therefore I either ask them where Scottie is or I tell them the Klingons are here. And they all smile because they remember Star Trek where the Enterprise when in trouble would give of a RED ALERT signal through out the ship.
P.S. I read somewhere that not smiling can put wrinkles on your face.
^ I don't think that's true, I spent most of my years showing very little emotion (other than sadness and anger) on my face, I am just starting to show wrinkles now (around the eyes), now that I am smiling.
He called you pretty and asked you to smile? It sounds like he was trying to make your day better. Maybe you're using your feminist high horse wrong?
How come I've never had a troll follow me around. or squeeze my ass. :(
Evelyn,
I don't know. Men are basically fools. But I doubt you would suffer trolls lightly, so maybe they aren't as foolish as they seem. :laugh:
Won't let them glutton me mutton. I'll smile sunshine and turn em into stone.
To the people who think it's just something to "get over"...some girls just don't like attention from men. Obviously I wasn't a girl, but I wasn't interested in men in any capacity and it was kind of annoying to have to mitigate flirtatious comments. Because a lot of times, if you act nice in response to comments regarding your appearance, they take it as a license to keep it going and then they think you've led them on and are offended when you state that you are not interested. Not universally, of course, but it's not something everyone likes to deal with. Especially when it happens on a somewhat regular basis. Sometimes people just want to go about their day without having to worry if some dudes is trying to pick them up.
That's my attitude, is there is a time and a place for flirting. When you're just trying to live your life, doing completely mundane everyday things like shopping or going to work or just walking around being a tourist, is NOT the time. That's when it just becomes an annoyance, when EVERY moment of your life has to be sexualized and seen in a flirtatious context. It's exhausting.
I wonder if our female gender is partly to blame? We never initiate. So our culture expects males to open us in dialogue.
Kind of a catch-22.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 09, 2014, 11:40:02 PM
That's my attitude, is there is a time and a place for flirting. When you're just trying to live your life, doing completely mundane everyday things like shopping or going to work or just walking around being a tourist, is NOT the time. That's when it just becomes an annoyance, when EVERY moment of your life has to be sexualized and seen in a flirtatious context. It's exhausting.
It's not always about sex. Sometimes a compliment is just a compliment.
It doesn't make sense to me.....in this culture low self esteem is considered to be a terrible epidemic faced by millions of women, but then simple compliments are treated like dangerous sexual advances. When women start treating all men as creeps or potential rapists, a lot of innocent, well meaning men get truly crushed. Big secret girls: men are just as insecure and emotionally fragile as women.
Quote from: Oriah on July 09, 2014, 11:54:45 PM
It's not always about sex. Sometimes a compliment is just a compliment.
It doesn't make sense to me.....in this culture low self esteem is considered to be a terrible epidemic faced by millions of women, but then simple compliments are treated like dangerous sexual advances. When women start treating all men as creeps or potential rapists, a lot of innocent, well meaning men get truly crushed. Big secret girls: men are just as insecure and emotionally fragile as women.
The problem is men just don't know when they're being creepy. The whole "male gaze" thing. It's pervasive and mostly uninvited.
It's like men feel like it's their universal right, to own the object of their attention. A testosterone induced sense of entitlement.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi60.tinypic.com%2Fnq7adw.jpg&hash=32338c646200fbeadecf1c241b2ce524296563c6)
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 10, 2014, 01:23:32 AM
The problem is men just don't know when they're being creepy. The whole "male gaze" thing. It's pervasive and mostly uninvited.
It's like men feel like it's their universal right, to own the object of their attention. A testosterone induced sense of entitlement.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi60.tinypic.com%2Fnq7adw.jpg&hash=32338c646200fbeadecf1c241b2ce524296563c6)
I'd say that's pretty sexist. I always notice that women frequently seem to be sexist toward men, while complaining how sexist men are...
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 09, 2014, 11:43:21 PM
I wonder if our female gender is partly to blame? We never initiate. So our culture expects males to open us in dialogue.
Kind of a catch-22.
And this if fething wrong. I also want to get back on what Oriah just said about men being quite insecure and fragile and whatnot. If I would have waited till they get their wits together to make the initial advance or follow-up... I would still be waiting. Sometimes, nope... often they fear rejection or just cannot figure us out (just like we often cannot figure out them), so when You see something like that, You need to take soft but decisive action. A bit of mystery or flirting is totally appropriate, but if things between people need to be sorted out then somebody has to do it.
Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 09, 2014, 12:40:58 PM
Well, this might sound odd, but I ALWAYS smile. Especially when I encounter another person; I automatically smile at everyone I meet. I just do.
I have a feeling that this kind of tension between random strangers on the street might, at least in part, be geographical. Living in Portland, Oregon, I have almost never had a street encounter with a random man that could not easily be managed with a smile, a "Thank you", and an "I gotta go".
It might just be that I'm a incorrigible flirt (I am), but I have a tendency in my life to treat everyone I encounter, however briefly, as if they matter. It isn't at all unusual for some random man to speak to me on the street or in some public place, and for me to stop for a moment and have a brief conversation, a laugh, a human moment with him. I find that, strange though it may sound, sometimes when strangers say something as random as, "You should smile", what they really mean to say is, "I'm lonely; won't you take a moment to acknowledge me and remind me of my humanity?"
In my own experience, I find that people respond well to me when I respond well to them. And when some random guy speaks to me, on the street or in a pool hall, in almost every case, taking just a minute or 2 to have a human to human interaction is enough to satisfy what it is in him that inspired him to reach out to me.
I'm sorry... just an alternative perspective on the subject.
Wow.... you blew me away.
Thank you for your humanity. I will take what you have said and try to apply it to my life as I feel it is an incredible statement. I love the lonely validation part and wonder how often this happens. We all struggle to be accepted, as well as non transgendered people. It's a brilliant statement that gives me hope for mankind in the future.
^^ Yeah, but be smart about it, given your situation (awareness and all that). Some of the sweetest talkers could end up being your worst nightmare.
Everyone should read, "The Gift of Fear" to help you keep things in perspective.
Personally, any male invading my space uninvited is a red flag.
Aware yes, fearful no. I have spent my entire life willing to talk to anyone who would like to. Presenting as male or as myself it doesn't matter very much. Except for a brief time in my twenties, I've never been so pretty that I was hit on that much (and back then it was mostly gay guys), but I've never interpreted friendly interactions as predation. I have and had girlfriends that were subject to pretty constant male appraisal, and they would tire of the constant implied sexual interest.
Evelyn's animated cartoon is kinda of accurate and kinda sad too. Men are clueless on how to be a friend to women sans sexual tension, and also mostly clueless as to how and when to open up. I know before I transitioned I was ever so hesitant to tell a woman the her dress was killer, or make any other comment about how she was put together. Now I'll ask total strangers where they got something I think is great, and am sometimes given way more information than I was expecting or asking for. lol But I find that I do the same thing in return with women, but never with men.
It makes me very sad that we necessarily temper humanity with caution, but that is the way it is. I was at a self defense lecture at a trans conference a couple of months ago. Frankly it was scary having a cop describe what can and does happen to women, and to t-girls in particular.
Now that I have thoroughly depressed myself, I guess that while I wish it wasn't so, it is the way that it is, harassment is real and predators are there. Sure sucks though.
Julie
Totally agree with Oriah, Miharu Barbie, and ♡ Emily ♡ on everything said. Good points.
Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 09, 2014, 12:40:58 PM
Well, this might sound odd, but I ALWAYS smile. Especially when I encounter another person; I automatically smile at everyone I meet. I just do.
I have a feeling that this kind of tension between random strangers on the street might, at least in part, be geographical. Living in Portland, Oregon, I have almost never had a street encounter with a random man that could not easily be managed with a smile, a "Thank you", and an "I gotta go".
It might just be that I'm a incorrigible flirt (I am), but I have a tendency in my life to treat everyone I encounter, however briefly, as if they matter. It isn't at all unusual for some random man to speak to me on the street or in some public place, and for me to stop for a moment and have a brief conversation, a laugh, a human moment with him. I find that, strange though it may sound, sometimes when strangers say something as random as, "You should smile", what they really mean to say is, "I'm lonely; won't you take a moment to acknowledge me and remind me of my humanity?"
In my own experience, I find that people respond well to me when I respond well to them. And when some random guy speaks to me, on the street or in a pool hall, in almost every case, taking just a minute or 2 to have a human to human interaction is enough to satisfy what it is in him that inspired him to reach out to me.
I'm sorry... just an alternative perspective on the subject.
Quote from: Oriah on July 09, 2014, 11:54:45 PM
It's not always about sex. Sometimes a compliment is just a compliment.
It doesn't make sense to me.....in this culture low self esteem is considered to be a terrible epidemic faced by millions of women, but then simple compliments are treated like dangerous sexual advances. When women start treating all men as creeps or potential rapists, a lot of innocent, well meaning men get truly crushed. Big secret girls: men are just as insecure and emotionally fragile as women.
Quote from: ♡ Emily ♡ on July 10, 2014, 02:19:10 AM
And this if fething wrong. I also want to get back on what Oriah just said about men being quite insecure and fragile and whatnot. If I would have waited till they get their wits together to make the initial advance or follow-up... I would still be waiting. Sometimes, nope... often they fear rejection or just cannot figure us out (just like we often cannot figure out them), so when You see something like that, You need to take soft but decisive action. A bit of mystery or flirting is totally appropriate, but if things between people need to be sorted out then somebody has to do it.
Whenever I'm out, be it work or shopping, if someone looks at me for more than just an instant I tend to give a smile, for me this is just me showing friendly acknowledgement (and usually about the best anyone'll get out of me showing any kind of initiative, that I actually made first response), kind of like a nod or a hello, nothing more to it, just a nice gesture to show that I'm not a scared rabbit (used to be) or rude stuck up bitch (I probably seemed like I was years ago). Sometimes I get a smile back, sometimes a nod or hello, but other times no response at all, 'shrugs that last one off, keep going about what I was doing.'
Our apartment complex is renovating the exteriors, siding, as well as fixing porches and balconies. All the guys have gotten used to seeing me when I go out to walk Snickers. When I pass by one or two I'll smile, they'll either smile back or say hello, in which I return the greeting. If standing around as a group, say when they were all taking a break yesterday afternoon, I noticed them looking me over almost in unison, some with cigarettes in their mouths, a few with smiles on their faces, but all eyeballs on me (undressing me with their eyes, oh no!, but then that's only if you are a paranoid feminist; I say let 'em look, that's completely harmless, and really for me, that's positive attention), talking amongst each other, hmm, what could they being saying (oh my god, they're thinking dirty thoughts! Okay, its possible just as anything is, meaning they could be thinking or talking about any number of things) but I merely smile, and once in in a while might exchange a few words. Yesterday one carrying a ladder stopped and said something about when Snickers was barking and growling that day they were in front of our sliding glass door window, then was telling me about that it was going to take a lot longer to finish all this work than planned and how after that they were going to do some work in another state and how he didn't think he'd want to, I listened, said a few things to that, and that was it, harmless human interaction (he's a man, I'm a woman, so what, he goes back to the task at hand, I continue on walking my dog). There's nothing wrong with being friendly, most of the time there's no ulterior motive, people just like to be acknowledged, that they aren't invisible. And of coarse some of these people will be men, they need attention to, so what if maybe they'd show my more than say another guy, that maybe the attention was directed more my way because he thought I was pretty, so what, no big deal, its not like something more will come of it. A smile or friendly greeting even as brief as it is can make the difference in someone's day, turning what could have been bad for them to actually making them feel a bit better.
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 09, 2014, 10:22:54 PM
How come I've never had a troll follow me around. or squeeze my ass. :(
Bring it over here... I'll give it a squeeze for ya.
The 'compliment' itself is not the problem. The self entitlement is.
Saying women should just 'accept' this activity by men is a more subtle form of victim blaming. "Well if only you would just hush up like a good little lady, maybe then life wouldn't be so bad for you".
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/bf18ae37a2fdca3e703c56f8caf246b3/tumblr_ml4m7xqxgR1qzdvuto2_400.gif)
If men would learn that women aren't props for their viewing pleasure ('a pretty girl like you should always smile'), then maybe women wouldn't have to sit on their 'feminist high horse' as much.
It is a pretty horse though, isn't it? ;)
Quote from: Miharu Barbie on July 10, 2014, 10:52:24 AM
Bring it over here... I'll give it a squeeze for ya.
Will be taking a dirigible, they are faxing me my flight tickets now!
My smiling days may be over until I come up with the money for a dentist to fix a badly broken front tooth! Big chip.
Really, it does surprise me how people are able to make such a fuss out of simple things... and the amount of androphobia in this thread is a bit worrying too.
(Accidentally posted my reply when I wasn't done typing it before, oops!)
I was saying that so long as they aren't treating you 'specially' simply because you are a woman (or considered pretty), it is generally okay. A friend of mine's sister was walking around once when a guy whistled at her saying how pretty and sexy she is. She turned around and gave him the finger, to which he shouted "B****! Accept a compliment!" Many men feel like women are entitled to their opinions, which is ridiculous. Even if you find someone attractive, you don't have to announce it in such a way. It just makes the person you're 'complimenting' feel like a sexual object for you to look at. I wrote a whole essay about things like this that a lot of women have to deal with on a regular basis, but I just wanted to briefly talk about it here. The good news is: it means you pass as a woman. The bad news is: you will most likely come across a lot of misogynistic people who will make crude comments at you. It isn't bad if you stand up for yourself. What sucks is that standing up for yourself is almost a necessity in this world in order to stay safe...it shouldn't have to be that way, but it is the unfortunate reality.
Smiling to strangers is absolutely fine, though. I sometimes see people flashing a brief smile at me as I pass by them, and I return it. It just brightens my mood to spread happiness around with others, I guess. Especially when I am having a bad day...sometimes I just need that small grin from a complete stranger to make me feel better.
I've gotten whistled at as well as honked at by passing cars with men in them, what do I think of it? Nothing really, I smile and keep on walking (unless I'm in a bad mood, then I just mutter curse words under my breath), its no big deal. Those guys that do that, they are a very small minority of all the good respectable men out there, most may probably think it, but have learned that this kind of behavior won't score them any points with any self-respecting women. Ignore the ->-bleeped-<-s, move on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGk7jaPdaT8
lolz
Quote from: PoeticHeart on July 10, 2014, 11:05:16 AM
The 'compliment' itself is not the problem. The self entitlement is.
Saying women should just 'accept' this activity by men is a more subtle form of victim blaming. "Well if only you would just hush up like a good little lady, maybe then life wouldn't be so bad for you".
If men would learn that women aren't props for their viewing pleasure ('a pretty girl like you should always smile'), then maybe women wouldn't have to sit on their 'feminist high horse' as much.
It is a pretty horse though, isn't it? ;)
It's one thing to give someone a compliment, not necessarily expecting a response. It's another thing to respond to an unsolicited comment with a ->-bleeped-<- you and a middle finger.
If somebody gives you a freaking COMPLIMENT, you are not a VICTIM. You live in a society where the free exchange of ideas exist. You can accept a freaking compliment, ignore it, or give a high-horsed feminist response and rant on tumblr about how oppressed you were. If you choose the last option, do not be surprised when people find your vitriol venomous and distasteful.
If you don't want to be complimented, why not just go out in a burka or just stop HRT and grow a full beard? Why even bother trying to pass at all? The only reason men and women find each other attractive is due to the biological wiring for reproduction, so yes, in a way, women ARE props for viewing pleasure. So are men. But you wouldn't see a physically fit, handsome man going on tumblr crying about how women smile at him and give him compliments about how strong he looks.
If you don't like a damned compliment, then just ignore it. If you want to feel oppression, why not take a trip to a country where women are
actually oppressed? Iraq and many parts of Africa come to mind.
Quote from: Hideyoshi on July 09, 2014, 03:09:30 PM
While the ass grabbing is unacceptable, something as benign as "smile more, you're very pretty" is not 'males exerting their power over women'. Christ. I find the current wave of feminism highly distasteful and it wouldn't surprise me if it chased acceptance away due to how utterly off-putting it can be.
Same with the offended-by-everything tumblrites who thrash around every time someone says something about sexual dimorphism, gender binary, etc.
Guys flirting with you comes with the territory as a woman, especially if you're lucky enough to be attractive. You signed up for it, no turning back now.
Well, it may be a small thing, but it is a bit infantalizing. Most of the time, it's not really 'flirting' and the guy (or girl) probably thinks they're being nice or friendly. It's the expectation that women look 'pleasing' that's the issue. It's just a small symptom of the way women are seen as opposed to men.
Edit: oh just noticed Poetic heart just explained it a lot better. :)
Like I said, while it's nothing to get bent out of shape about, it's part of the larger picture where men are left alone and respected but women have to endure all kinds of encroaching on their personal space.
Quote from: Hideyoshi on July 10, 2014, 06:41:09 PM
It's one thing to give someone a compliment, not necessarily expecting a response. It's another thing to respond to an unsolicited comment with a ->-bleeped-<- you and a middle finger.
If somebody gives you a freaking COMPLIMENT, you are not a VICTIM. You live in a society where the free exchange of ideas exist. You can accept a freaking compliment, ignore it, or give a high-horsed feminist response and rant on tumblr about how oppressed you were. If you choose the last option, do not be surprised when people find your vitriol venomous and distasteful.
If you don't want to be complimented, why not just go out in a burka or just stop HRT and grow a full beard? Why even bother trying to pass at all? The only reason men and women find each other attractive is due to the biological wiring for reproduction, so yes, in a way, women ARE props for viewing pleasure. So are men. But you wouldn't see a physically fit, handsome man going on tumblr crying about how women smile at him and give him compliments about how strong he looks.
If you don't like a damned compliment, then just ignore it. If you want to feel oppression, why not take a trip to a country where women are actually oppressed? Iraq and many parts of Africa come to mind.
Apart from the personal attacks that are being thrown about, I'm gonna stay on point. But apparently, I'm the one spewing vitriol.
Yes, we could sit here and argue about 'who has it worse' until we were blue in the face. I don't live in those places though, so I'll leave that work to the activists that are there. You know... the people that understand the culture and people of that land. Furthermore, the analogy of 'piles of crap' comes to mind. We can try to see which is crappier, but in the end, it's still a bunch of crap.
I'm not trying to attack men, and sure, there are some out there that don't behave in these ways. But there are statistics upon statistics that show this kind of behavior (as a generalization) has gotten way out of hand. And women aren't the only ones affected by patriarchal standards either. Men have obscene standards of beauty and behavior placed on them that can cause significant psychological harm.
I could go on and on, but really, I'm either preaching to the choir or people aren't listening. I'm done.
All of the above has been touched upon quite a bit here
Navigating the Male Gaze As a Trans Woman
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,165149.msg1426125.html#msg1426125
Everyone should smile more often, and everyone should smile even more when they don't feel like it.
We take advantage of so much, and there are people who are far worse off then most of us, and a lot of them find a reason to smile.
- As for men looking as women objectively, Women do this also maybe just not as vocal as men. Guys tend to be more open about doing it. This doesn't mean it is right, but we have "all" drooled over people we find attractive.
Quote from: PoeticHeart on July 10, 2014, 10:51:37 PM
We can try to see which is crappier, but in the end, it's still a bunch of crap.
Very well said! People will always counter that someone else has it worse out there, but that shouldn't invalidate your own problems.
Quote from: Jay27 on July 10, 2014, 11:12:54 PM
Very well said! People will always counter that someone else has it worse out there, but that shouldn't invalidate your own problems.
That would be an acceptable point if the difference wasn't so stark as to compare a starving child in a developing country to a rich person complaining that their caviar isn't fresh.
Quote from: PoeticHeart on July 10, 2014, 10:51:37 PM
Apart from the personal attacks that are being thrown about, I'm gonna stay on point. But apparently, I'm the one spewing vitriol.
Yes, we could sit here and argue about 'who has it worse' until we were blue in the face. I don't live in those places though, so I'll leave that work to the activists that are there. You know... the people that understand the culture and people of that land. Furthermore, the analogy of 'piles of crap' comes to mind. We can try to see which is crappier, but in the end, it's still a bunch of crap.
I'm not trying to attack men, and sure, there are some out there that don't behave in these ways. But there are statistics upon statistics that show this kind of behavior (as a generalization) has gotten way out of hand. And women aren't the only ones affected by patriarchal standards either. Men have obscene standards of beauty and behavior placed on them that can cause significant psychological harm.
I could go on and on, but really, I'm either preaching to the choir or people aren't listening. I'm done.
Personal attacks? Please.
But whatever, you can continue to have tantrums whenever someone compliments you. I'll just live my life knowing that there are those different from me.
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 10, 2014, 05:20:42 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGk7jaPdaT8
lolz
Seriously, Evelyn? That is just NOT funny. Joanna posted a topic about getting stalked, touched inappropriately, kissed unwelcomely by creepy strangers, and you posted a video of a guy basically preying upon girls' fears about it and deliberately making them scared out of their wits by being a creeper just because he thinks it's freaking funny? And you posted it with the comment "lolz"? This is funny to you? Just wow...
Quote from: Hideyoshi on July 11, 2014, 06:24:30 AM
That would be an acceptable point if the difference wasn't so stark as to compare a starving child in a developing country to a rich person complaining that their caviar isn't fresh.
I was thinking more along the lines of: you tell your friend about what a terrible day you've had, and they turn it into a competition of who had a worse day. Everyone's problems vary in importance and severity, but that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to have them because someone else has it worse.
I didn't read Evelyn's intentions as to make fun of the assaults. I read it as though she were posting this video to show the true nature of some of the more extreme behaviors; I could be confused though.
I watched the video all the way until the end (the guy is just down right weird and I'm surprised he didn't get attacked) and he seriously thinks it was a funny video. He even says there are 'better videos in the future' which really scares me.
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 11, 2014, 12:23:43 PM
Seriously, Evelyn? That is just NOT funny. Joanna posted a topic about getting stalked, touched inappropriately, kissed unwelcomely by creepy strangers, and you posted a video of a guy basically preying upon girls' fears about it and deliberately making them scared out of their wits by being a creeper just because he thinks it's freaking funny? And you posted it with the comment "lolz"? This is funny to you? Just wow...
Seriously? In all seriousness, no, I think it's pathetic what the guy is doing, and he needs to stick a gun in his mouth.
Remember I *hate* men. Just pointing out some typical male behavior highlights of today's 2 legged testicular pests and their entertainment there of.
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 11, 2014, 01:45:24 PM
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 11, 2014, 12:23:43 PM
Seriously, Evelyn? That is just NOT funny. Joanna posted a topic about getting stalked, touched inappropriately, kissed unwelcomely by creepy strangers, and you posted a video of a guy basically preying upon girls' fears about it and deliberately making them scared out of their wits by being a creeper just because he thinks it's freaking funny? And you posted it with the comment "lolz"? This is funny to you? Just wow...
Seriously? In all seriousness, no, I think it's pathetic what the guy is doing, and he needs to stick a gun in his mouth.
Remember I *hate* men. Just pointing out some typical male behavior highlights of today's 2 legged testicular pests and their entertainment there of.
I understand your frustration hon. But let's try not to paint with such a broad brush. Most men are not creeps and are appalled at the ones who are.
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 11, 2014, 01:45:24 PM
Seriously? In all seriousness, no, I think it's pathetic what the guy is doing, and he needs to stick a gun in his mouth.
Remember I *hate* men. Just pointing out some typical male behavior highlights of today's 2 legged testicular pests and their entertainment there of.
Please remember Evelyn that this isn't a forum where you can joke freely about sensitive topics like you would in other forums. :-X
Quote from: FA on July 11, 2014, 02:24:27 PM
Seriously? In all seriousness, no, I think it's pathetic what the guy is doing, and he needs to stick a gun in his mouth.
Remember I *hate* men. Just pointing out some typical male behavior highlights of today's 2 legged testicular pests and their entertainment there of.
I understand your frustration hon. But let's try not to paint with such a broad brush. Most men are not creeps and are appalled at the ones who are.
No offense against you dear FA.
As to that guy, other men need to crucify him post haste because there's been a downward spiral in the news lately with too many angry guys taking out their family's and other women due to epic levels of beta-male frustration. These jack ass style videos are only helping to increase the thickness of our bitch shields.
Gontlemen - No, I don't want to be approached, or touched, and no I don't owe you a conversation when I'm walking from point A to point B.
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 11, 2014, 01:45:24 PM
Seriously? In all seriousness, no, I think it's pathetic what the guy is doing, and he needs to stick a gun in his mouth.
Remember I *hate* men. Just pointing out some typical male behavior highlights of today's 2 legged testicular pests and their entertainment there of.
So you joke about suicide on a trans forum. OK. You put a video of an attention seeking creep in an attempt to paint a majority of men as such. Sure that's fine.
My boyfriend and male friends aren't feminists, but they also aren't creepy weirdos doing push ups trying to look up girls' skirts. It's easy to strawman males as bubbling caricatures. It's harder to actually approach people objectively.
Is that what he was doing looking up their skirts? I actually didn't connect that.
IMO the average guy has to resort to manipulation and the facade of being an alpha-male to try to win over the women of their attention.
The 'pick-up' technique and learning sites are filled with males coaching each other on how to seduce us. A lot of it is actually creepy because the mentality stems from their belief that it's OK to approach uninvited, get in our face and start talking 'at' us.
For attractive gals I can imagine the frequency of these intrusions would get extremely annoying.
BTW: Who's joking about suicide?
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 11, 2014, 03:08:53 PM
Is that what he was doing looking up their skirts? I actually didn't connect that.
IMO the average guy has to resort to manipulation and the facade of being an alpha-male to try to win over the women of their attention.
The 'pick-up' technique and learning sites are filled with males coaching each other on how to seduce us. A lot of it is actually creepy because the mentality stems from their belief that it's OK to approach uninvited, get in our face and start talking 'at' us.
For attractive gals I can imagine the frequency of these intrusions would get extremely annoying.
BTW: Who's joking about suicide?
Then how would anyone pick up anyone, if we are all just maintaining our distances from each other? O.o
Also it is not just a guys belief - we are all taught at a young age - go talk with someone make friends.
Reciprocative eye contact??
Here's a rare guy who actually has a clue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejH7ViDkYIg
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 11, 2014, 03:28:34 PM
Reciprocative eye contact??
Honestly I don't see anything wrong with guys talking with girls trying to find a relationship. I'd also like to see more women pick up guys.
We are all sitting here talking about how its "bad" for guys to try to pick up girls, yet culture seems to teach us that girls are not allowed to do the pick up line part. ;D
There's a time and a place for it Aina. A little while ago I had some guy follow me into a park at night just so he could "talk to me" and clearly didn't see his behaviour was weird and creepy. I'm lucky he took "go away" as a response. I've modified my behaviour as a result, even though the park is the quickest way to get home I now take the long way round after dark. I bet he hasn't changed his behaviour.
Quote from: Ms Grace on July 11, 2014, 06:07:02 PM
There's a time and a place for it Aina. A little while ago I had some guy follow me into a park at night just so he could "talk to me" and clearly didn't see his behaviour was weird and creepy. I'm lucky he took "go away" as a response. I've modified my behaviour as a result, even though the park is the quickest way to get home I now take the long way round after dark. I bet he hasn't changed his behaviour.
Yes well there are always strange people, however to just say all guys are like that, and that any guy who comes up to a girl in a bar/ect and tries to pick them up isn't right and there seems to be an abnormal amount of man hate going on in this thread :P.
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 11, 2014, 03:08:53 PM
BTW: Who's joking about suicide?
You
Quote from: Evelyn K on July 11, 2014, 01:45:24 PM
he needs to stick a gun in his mouth.
It wouldn't surprise me if one or two people reading this very thread have been in that situation but decided against it.
If it's not a joke you have a serious problem.
Quote from: Aina on July 11, 2014, 07:06:10 PM
Yes well there are always strange people, however to just say all guys are like that, and that any guy who comes up to a girl in a bar/ect and tries to pick them up isn't right...
Agreed, he was but one guy not every man on the planet. Many, many men are awesome, lovely people, unfortunately it's the ones that aren't that cause a significant amount of damage - physical, mental and emotional. Sure guys can try to chatting a woman up in a bar, but they also need to be prepared to take "not interested, thanks" as a an answer and leave her alone and not try his pick-up voodoo bull $#!^ on her.
Quote from: Aina on July 11, 2014, 07:06:10 PM
...there seems to be an abnormal amount of man hate going on in this thread :P.
Yeah, and it needs to
stop. :police:
This thread is in danger of derailing spectacularly - I'd suggest everyone not prepared to stick to the topic and instead engage in bickering just leave this thread alone or it will be shut down faster than some fast thing that is really fast.
Thanks. :)
:police:
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 09, 2014, 11:40:02 PM
That's my attitude, is there is a time and a place for flirting. When you're just trying to live your life, doing completely mundane everyday things like shopping or going to work or just walking around being a tourist, is NOT the time. That's when it just becomes an annoyance, when EVERY moment of your life has to be sexualized and seen in a flirtatious context. It's exhausting.
THANK YOU! The ironic part about alot of these responses is a lot of the same people will say how they hate men and men this men that eww, men. I happen to love men and just spent the last 72 hours straight with one. And what did he tell me? Wow everyone is always staring at your tits, especially old men.
Also, I'm not against flirting this or that...just not in everyday life when I'm texting, going about my day and just want to get on the train after a hot, hard day's work. That;s it. I'm also against some of the comments and creepiness that comes when you dont smile. There's nothing worng with flirting. In fact, I like it.
Quote from: Oriah on July 09, 2014, 11:54:45 PM
It's not always about sex. Sometimes a compliment is just a compliment.
It doesn't make sense to me.....in this culture low self esteem is considered to be a terrible epidemic faced by millions of women, but then simple compliments are treated like dangerous sexual advances. When women start treating all men as creeps or potential rapists, a lot of innocent, well meaning men get truly crushed. Big secret girls: men are just as insecure and emotionally fragile as women.
So anytime a random men calls me pretty and tell me to smile I should thank him and immediately change MY emotional state and thus being on more flirting and then lead them on rather than saying noting or just a simple "not felling well. sorry." Then, if you have to wait in that area, well, if you're nice, they take it as a license to continue and usually it's worse. the men who do this are GENERALLY not interested inb the woman's feelings, but instead, he vag. If you're not nice, then you're an ice queen. What about my emotional state.
And I hardly agree that men are these fragile little beings you paint them to be. they're not. If a woman blows them off and they had the confidence to make a come on, they'll be fine. But in any event, it's not my job to read minds and figure out who gets hurt and who doesn't. Also, a truly nice guy, if he sees a woman in a bad emotional state will not say "smile you're so pretty" but instead "hey, you look upset sweetie is everything alright? If anybody hurt you, i'll hurt them" or even better say a joke. I saw a woman crying the other day and we had a nice little talk about men sucking but how they so hard to get rid of cause you love them and a gave her a big old hug. Men can't do this obviously, cause, well, they're not women. I guess a gay men could but, er, it's different.
And you're not getting it sorry. these aren't simple compliments. In fact, it happened again today and the guy had this huge ->-bleeped-<- eating grin on his face after he told me to smile i'm bringing him down or some crap. Couldn't understand it all cause he didn't stick around. They are a way to invade spaces at a time when the space should not be invaded. I was a t a train station, a crowded one in Philly and reading a schedule. Couldnt I just read a hard to read schedule without beign told to smile? I guess not cause some poor man's feelingmight get hurt. They could just say Hi if they're so interested and then back off if nothing happens. This is what most men do. I've hung out with lots of men and women and have not led a sheltered life, quite the opposite. I love men and like to flirt just not all the time and especially not on puclic transport...unless you're really hor then, yes, plesse please flirt. I love u long time lol
This is not the evil feminists (I guess me lol) taking away men's rights and not accepting "harmless" flirting. Since when is flirting not backed up by an agenda? well boo hoo for men. My one old friend tried picking up lots of women and prolly told some to smile (maybe not prolly had a better approach cause really smile you're pretty is so lame) and he counted it as a numbers game and just kept trying. He never took it personally and said men who did should work on themselves first cause it's not for the faint hearted and it s not a woman's job to be nice and accept every compliment.
isn't this a women's support forum????
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 11, 2014, 09:35:09 PM
Also, I'm not against flirting this or that...just not in everyday life when I'm texting, going about my day and just want to get on the train after a hot, hard day's work. That;s it. I'm also against some of the comments and creepiness that comes when you dont smile. There's nothing worng with flirting. In fact, I like it.
Agreed and thank you.
With regard to smiling, I literally can't. Prolly during my facial reconstruction following my 91 accident some facial muscles on the left side of my mouth just don't co-operate when I try to form a smile. Also, from the same accident I have bad teeth which I'm looking into getting fixed but, that's beside the point. I get asked to smile a lot by both men and women. But I don't get offended but it because they simply don't know about my condition. Instead, I simply try and give my best feminine hand wave with an appreciative nod of acknowledgement, then go on about my business. Of course I don't much care for it if a guy becomes pushy. I do my best in cases such as this to walk away from him.
Though I'm lesbian and am strongly not into men, It doesn't mean I can't be polite to a guy if he finds me attractive or pretty (especially at my age, lol!), and show him respect. Not all men are creeps and sexual perverts. In fact most are just being polite or nice, and going about their day just like I am. I do my best to treat people both men and other women with the same respect they've given me. It's those very few guys that get out of hand, or takes things too far with flirting that offend me. However, I'm not going to let the actions of a misguided few stain the whole of the male population with regard to the amount of respect I give them in public. For to do that would just be wrong.
Ally :icon_flower:
Quote from: Joanna Dark on July 11, 2014, 10:04:08 PM
isn't this a women's support forum????
This is a support forum for trans men and trans women, intersex people, non binary people, significant others - etc. That is one reason, but certainly not the only reason why misandry, man hating, etc is not tolerated. It doesn't mean anyone has to be pleasant to (or about) men who harass them but generalised comments about "how disgusting men are", etc just aren't on.
Personally I agree that women are not there for the amusement and gratification of men, and that we don't have to be compliant to their whims.
Quote from: Ms Grace on July 11, 2014, 10:42:28 PM
This is a support forum for trans men and trans women, intersex people, non binary people, significant others - etc. That is one reason, but certainly not the only reason why misandry, man hating, etc is not tolerated. It doesn't mean anyone has to be pleasant to (or about) men who harass them but generalised comments about "how disgusting men are", etc just aren't on.
Personally I agree that women are not there for the amusement and gratification of men, and that we don't have to be compliant to their whims.
I meant this sub-forum. Trans woman = woman. Point blank. Ditto fo da dudes. A blue car is still a car, a broken ax is still an ax, and a trans woman is still a woman. I don't consider myself trans, so I don't like saying it. I consider myself, and so do geneticists, a woman. Yeah, we talk about trans issues, but there are forums and sub-forums for women with Lupus. I bet everyone considers themnselves a women with lupus not a lupus patient who is a woman, as some here do and would be wise for their self-preservation and sanity to do the same. If you count non-HRT years (but being in a lesbian like relationship--I only say like cause I have not had SRS), I've been transitioning a total of five+ years. I'm 32 and if you count my DNA: I've never not been a woman. I was half and half til i was three so I think I have a lot to offer peeps.
BTW, I have been very accommodating and super nice considering not only have I been raped in my life by two men, I've also been the victim of multiple sexually aggressive street harassment incidents (butt and boob grabbing) and was recently nearly killed for people finding out I have a penis who knew nothing for nine months until this evil ¢*nt told peeps and thought it was funny since she got tired of guys liking me and thinking I'm sexy and fun (she's 50 but thinks she's 30). So, sorry if I come across as misandric (though many sociologists argue majority groups and groups in power, in fact, it's rather elementary sociological stuff, can not be victims of oppression by virtue of their status and power) but most men a re great, like i said I love them, but this is a sub-forum for women or I guess trans woman. And in my case: other.
Topic has more than run it's course.
Topic locked.