I couldn't really think of a better title, but, what I mean is...
When you write, type, speak, think... emote, is it in a feminine style? If you wrote an essay, on .. well, really on anything, if it was placed alongside a cisfemales paper, would it sound the same, be in the same emotional range? I guess what I am asking.. being a female, born into, or "trapped" in the wrong body type, do you write with a female heart, a female mind, or soul?
I have always, and I mean, always, written in a female vein, that my words, thoughts and emotions have the sappy, drippy, heartfelt weepy descriptive emotions and images that (to me anyway) cisfemales have and display in their writing style. Yes, I have seen some females styles that can pigeonhole them as somewhere between roller derby team members or dockyard, construction workers (absolutely no offence meant by that!), just as some cisfemales styles can conjure images of Cinderella, balls/galas and glass slippers.
What brought this on? One of the points in my ... " I AM trans/female" argument arsenal that I have to use with my family, is that from the age I knew what paper was, my thoughts that make it from my brain, thru the pencil, pen, or keyboard to here, have always had a (I think) fem style and emotion to them. I do not believe I have ever written in the .. blocky, grunting, kill-the-T-Rex and drag it back to the cave, Shrek-style that (it seems) most cismales have (again, I think).
When I finally let Paula out, and told my family, mom, sister and cousins... I asked this very question of each. In all the writings I have done since.. well, since forever.. When you read them, did it read as coming from a male heart, and mind, or was it more expressive, as if a female penned it?
Yes, I know, there are males that can emote as well as Nora Ephron, Fannie Flagg, or Mona Simpson, but honestly, how many have the mind we have, and think and write consistently... I hope you understand what I mean... Maybe to sum it up:
Can anyone point to your writing and say "this is from a females brain" ? Maybe I am just grasping for more evidence, or justification, I do not believe I am, but then, I've been told that my decisions may not be entirely sound *giggles*
This past week, I came out to 15 of my female friends, 12 of which, say I have their unconditional love and support, 3 I haven't heard from yet.. But of the 12, each has said, they have only thought of me as female, and have seen it in my heart, in my posts, and in my emotions, which, in a way, is what lead to this post.. Along with
(and here is where the warning comes in)
some of the threads are (I am so sorry) seem written by guys brains. Does it seem that the girls who write, with true female conviction, emotion, and spirit, are, maybe those who have been here for a while (senior mamas), suggesting, either, it could be environmental, having either adopted cisfem styles or they have their own cis brains. Those that are .. a bit.. less so, appear to be the younger, newer girls. I mean zero disrespect. I am heartbroken if it causes any pain, or trigger, I hope I am the only one seeing this.. Really, I want to just understand if this is either taught, acquired, or innate.
Maybe I should just stop..
Mods, if this is just.. too... feel free to remove it..
Paula
I just really can't tell what is feminine writing or masculine writing. Sorry but I really can't see the differences. I think I know what you're talking about though and personally I believe it is just the way some people write no matter the gender. Some ciswomen I have seen write things down with no emotion or little to no useful information whatsoever and I have seen some cisguys write too much information with emotion. I think I kind of get the gist of what your saying. ??? But it's interesting though. I start thinking back to school days and I was always in the advanced English classes that had a little more composition to it than the normal classes, even though it may not seem like it now.
I totally get where you are coming from. I for one can get a feel for a person and pretty accurately a feel for who they are by their writings. There just seems to be a personality identifiable with different writing styles, words, descriptions and other things. Whether it is the product of being raised in a certain area, socialization norms or otherwise I could not say. I do see how words are our written thoughts and show how we are geared in the thought process which is tied to our true selves internally. I need an aspirin now, too many big words in my reply, eeck! :)
That's very veryyyy subjective.
I think I write with a "female brain" because ultimately that's who I am, so if I am female, my brain must be female too, right?
There's actually website where you can analyze pieces of your writing (with more than 300 words) and see if it comes in a "female" or "male" style http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php#Analyze
I find it a bit sexist, it's very appropriating. The people who created gender guesser claim that it is accurate about 60-70% of time, and I have tested and checked pieces of writing from men and women, and there were lots who came in the wrong gender. So I really don't know.
It's so hard to distinguish such thing, it's too conceptual, variable and subjective. Just because I perceive my writing to be feminine and Gender Guesser validates my belief doesn't mean other people see in the way I see myself.
Thanks Jesse, I agree, there are cisfemales that have little or no descriptive styles, or you could not really tell fem from masc papers.. I was just thinking, wondering, if we saw in ourselves, a particular fem, or masculine style.. I am curious to, maybe, have a f2m answer, if they notice any specific instance, or example of styles. But yes, I agree, there are those that just don't have a gender-based style, one way or the other.
I've always assumed my stuff looks obviously male. I've been told by people here that, no, my stuff seemed female. But maybe they were just trying to humor me.
Sorry for the headache Jessica. :)
And Aurora, I had not seen that website, I will have to try it out.. As for being subjective, yes, I agree, it's just one thing that I have noticed, and again, there are cis males that can emote right alongside the best female writers, just as there are females that write like Popeye or Brutus rather than Oliveoyl. So I get it, I just wondered if others, saw gender in writing.
Suzi, first off, straying a bit here.. how are you doing, hon? I've been thinking about you for a while, hoping, that you are really better, and able to get around as you want to!
Secondly, as you said, others here have seen the fem in your style, I have too, I was wondering, if those that are outside, whether you are out to them or not, to them, do they see a particular or gender-based emotive style.
As Aurora said, it is subjective, and would need to be asked, by even a third party, if someone's style is fem or masc.
Idk, I do a lot of writing and role playing elsewhere, and the one thing I've always gotten a lot of, even before my online friends new my true gender, was that I write 'like a girl'. I can kinda see it too, a lot of the writing I do with guys, their stuff is kinda procedural and more action oriented, while I tend to focus more on emotional states, how my characters or I felt, and just generally spend more time in my character's head.
Quote from: Paula Christine on July 25, 2014, 09:32:12 AM
Thanks Jesse, I agree, there are cisfemales that have little or no descriptive styles, or you could not really tell fem from masc papers.. I was just thinking, wondering, if we saw in ourselves, a particular fem, or masculine style.. I am curious to, maybe, have a f2m answer, if they notice any specific instance, or example of styles. But yes, I agree, there are those that just don't have a gender-based style, one way or the other.
You know, I think I get more of what you are saying. You made me think a little today. I do have a tendency to go on and on. A lot you can see here on the forums. I have also been told that I talk more than a woman by women. And that I gab more than a woman by men. So you may indeed be onto something.
Quote from: Jessica Merriman on July 25, 2014, 09:27:32 AM
I totally get where you are coming from. I for one can get a feel for a person and pretty accurately a feel for who they are by their writings. There just seems to be a personality identifiable with different writing styles, words, descriptions and other things. Whether it is the product of being raised in a certain area, socialization norms or otherwise I could not say. I do see how words are our written thoughts and show how we are geared in the thought process which is tied to our true selves internally. I need an aspirin now, too many big words in my reply, eeck! :)
An as an example, just like Jessica here. I go on and on and on. ;D Just kidding Jessica. And some really good points.
But I see what you mean Paula and would really be interested to hear from the FTM and how they write but also talk too.
Quote from: Paula Christine on July 25, 2014, 09:37:20 AM
Sorry for the headache Jessica. :)
And Aurora, I had not seen that website, I will have to try it out.. As for being subjective, yes, I agree, it's just one thing that I have noticed, and again, there are cis males that can emote right alongside the best female writers, just as there are females that write like Popeye or Brutus rather than Oliveoyl. So I get it, I just wondered if others, saw gender in writing.
Yes, I'm not critizcizing you, I just believe that it is more a grey-area, a spectrum with lots of possibilities :) Sometimes it's easy to tell, but not so much because of the writing itself, more because of the topics concerned
To say I write with a "female brain" would imply I know how a female brain works, and I don't, because all female brains are different, so there is no exact female brain. I could I say I write in a feminine way, but only because of social roles and constructs and even then, it is subjective. Same with masculine writing and style.
However, I have always had a prettier handwriting and I have been associated with femminity due to this, among other things. :) But I believe there's no right way to write like a female or like a male.
You know, it may be less about writing but just communication in general as more feminine or masculine ways.
Kaylin! I have been mmorpg-ing for the last.. Oh.. 7 or 8 years, with close to... 6 or 7 days of it, playing as a male.. ;). One particular instance, while In fem mode on a Disney site... One of the girls playing alongside, was relating (still don't know how it got past the filters) how she was being abused by someone, well, myself, and another plater with us, we fell instantly into protective mom role and got her to get out, to somewhere safe... It wasn't at that moment, or even in the place she was, at that moment (was not playing while in the unsafe place), but I was so completely in protective mom mode that I startled myself. Being online, or here, or.. Really anywhere, I am in fem mode... all the time, so female writing/emoting style, for me, just seems so... normal.
Jesse! I think, you have really identified it... communication, but in guess that is what I was thinking of, without really naming it. Thanks, you did.
Aurora, that's really,what I mean I think... A more feminine, softer style, Jesse named it, while I could not.. It is feminine communication, not just a style, I was thinking of. <3
Quote from: Paula Christine on July 25, 2014, 09:57:37 AM
Kaylin! I have been mmorpg-ing for the last.. Oh.. 7 or 8 years, with close to... 6 or 7 days of it, playing as a male.. ;). One particular instance, while In fem mode on a Disney site... One of the girls playing alongside, was relating (still don't know how it got past the filters) how she was being abused by someone, well, myself, and another plater with us, we fell instantly into protective mom role and got her to get out, to somewhere safe... It wasn't at that moment, or even in the place she was, at that moment (was not playing while in the unsafe place), but I was so completely in protective mom mode that I startled myself. Being online, or here, or.. Really anywhere, I am in fem mode... all the time, so female writing/emoting style, for me, just seems so... normal.
Exactly. :) Do not count on a Gender Guesser to tell you know yourself to be already, and it feels natural to you because it's who you are, and even if your writing or talking was masculine which you don't think so, it wouldn't make you any less of a female.
I'm always annoyed by how little I write - one or two sentence replies while everyone else is penning paragraphs - but I do all my Susan's contributions on a phone so maybe I have an excuse?
Anyway - in my longer-form writing (read: novel!), I do focus a lot on characters' thoughts and less on their actions. So I feel like I'm vindicated even if my online writing is terse to the point of comedy.
That and, I can remember even back when I was twelve-ish, some folks I was playing games with thought I was a girl just because of how I communicated in chat. At the time I was inwardly quite pleased with myself, but didn't say anything.
ikr!! Like the "What is your true gender?" online tests, there only for the entertainment value. I know who, and what I am inside, and am fixing the outside to match. Those tests, quizzes, like the "Which Disney Charator Are You" on FB, are just for fun, but in a small way,the a Gender Guesser, may show communication skills (as Jesse named it) more than anything.
Last week, I had two days, where I spent. 4-7 hrs with a couple friends, coming out to one (the 7hr block) saying, "my wife said I can't possibly be female, as I don't talk much at all. Women speak an average of (think it was) 20,000 words a day, you use 2000!" To which I whispered "well, only to you"
But to the cis female friend I came out to, ... I used 20000 words in the first half hour we spoke! ;)
So it really is more communication skills, than style I think, or I am finding.. So, it's all good. Everyone has their own style..
What would be an interesting poll... In this very same vein, "do you write/emote more now on hormones than before them" implying that they (hormones) may or may not influence more open communication. Imagine the possibilities! Or consequences ;)
Mostly I just want to second Aurora about everything, especially socialization and stereotypes. :) And a site that's right only slightly more often than a coin flip is not actually reliable, either.
I'm a very emotional person, and I'm told my private writing reflects that. However, my professional writing does tend to be spare and elegant rather than florid and emotional. I guess that means I write like a man for pay?! But realistically, I'm also with Aurora that I ae a woman, so this is a woman's writing.
I don't know if my writing style comes across as masculine or feminine but I do know one thing - there are a lot more words in my head now since I started HRT lol... I write long multi-page letters now whereas before it was a struggle to even write a single page.
All of my writings for my entire adult life had to be from a neutral, or male style. Learning how to write as my true self has been a interesting experience. Most of the time I get frustrated when what I mean does not come out as how I think it in my head. Speaking has always been my stronger medium. Even when I was trying to be male people would call me ma'am on the phone. It could be dangerous at work when someone would call back and ask to talk to me.
Quote from: Paula Christine on July 25, 2014, 09:57:37 AM
Jesse! I think, you have really identified it... communication, but in guess that is what I was thinking of, without really naming it. Thanks, you did.
Aurora, that's really,what I mean I think... A more feminine, softer style, Jesse named it, while I could not.. It is feminine communication, not just a style, I was thinking of. <3
Yeah. I really think its more of a communication/interaction thing than writing alone. Most guys can be in groups of two or more and just say, 'S'up man?" and give an answer and be done with and spend the rest of the time not saying another word. There are exceptions but it is fairly limited to sports, hunting cars, women or so on but usually stays on the subject. Put two women together and they will chat the whole time about a lot of different things all over the board. I see this a lot in smoking areas when people go on breaks.
Quote from: Auroramarianna on July 25, 2014, 09:48:57 AM
However, I have always had a prettier handwriting and I have been associated with femminity due to this, among other things. :) But I believe there's no right way to write like a female or like a male.
I definitely believe this. In my work as an engineer all my work requires third party and logical prose, and some of that leaks into my normal writing styles. However, I wouldn't say the way I write was any different to any other women that are in scientific/engineering careers. Although, you can immediately identify some writing as mine or the other woman I work with in my department, as you can actually read our cursive clear handwriting, rather then the cold block capital scribbles the guys do!
Neutral leaning to the femme side I think ( from what I got as feedback) in my speech, writing. My thinking is the same way, I hear a more feminine voice most of the time
I did that 300 word test and ended up 150/150, which is pretty rare.....also very long ago so I would probably do different now ^^
I'm always curious about tests, for fun if nothing else, so I fed different pieces of my writing to the Gender Guesser, some work related and some more personal. It's probably worth mentioning that when I have time, I really enjoy writing and may even get around to writing a book some day. However, I'm also an engineer by training (life sciences though, not one of those horrible "binary" disciplines .. :-) ) but still trained to think more or less in a logical manner... ;)
Anyway, as all of my input material could be considered formal ie. fiction, non-fiction, essays, reports, I only looked at the "Formal" results. End of the day, my professional writing was classed as "Weak Male" and my personal writing as "Weak Female" and I just loved the little remark "Weak emphasis could indicate European".
It reminded me of the book from the nineteen eighties "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche" except that in this case it would seem that in our written communication, we Europeans are neither real Men not real Woman, at best "weak" versions of the real thing... :)
Maybe it's my hormones or I'm being too sensitive (my bf hasn't called me for a week :'( ) but I find that just sooooo disrespectful...
Ah, the meanders of the feminine brain!
Hugs
Donna
Quote from: Donna E on July 25, 2014, 01:15:14 PM
Maybe it's my hormones or I'm being too sensitive (my bf hasn't called me for a week :'( ) but I find that just sooooo disrespectful...
Ah, the meanders of the feminine brain!
Hugs
Donna
Maybe both? I dont have a bf/gf but I have brothers who tends to be rather lax about keeping in touch, sometimes frustrates me . I am a bit too sensitive/impatient in that area I think. Not sure if HRT is helping or hurting that cause ;)
Quote from: Donna E on July 25, 2014, 01:15:14 PM
Maybe it's my hormones or I'm being too sensitive (my bf hasn't called me for a week :'( ) but I find that just sooooo disrespectful...
Ah, the meanders of the feminine brain!
Hugs
Donna
Guys are just like that. They say they will call you tomorrow and don't and then three or four days later call you. Phone conversations just aren't one of their strong points especially when it comes to promptness. But my God how they complain about how long it takes us to get ready, grumbling, huffing all the hurry ups but after we are ready they never seem to complain too much about how we look. ;)
I don't know, when it comes to my writing never contemplated it much. I can say this, I used to always simply just list things, but once on hormones I started expressing myself in more detail, actual sentences, paragraphs, mini-novels ;D. As for my thinking, its not something I worry about much. I'm me and I keep on evolving, the process towards a more feminine mindset has been a gradual thing that I never took all that much notice to, until recently. This year though reflecting back on myself, how I behaved, my interests, I have changed, a lot, it shows in everything I do, perhaps in my writing as well. I can't just list things anymore, I have to tell the whole story.
I really don't think it's possible to tell what gender somebody is just by looking at some text they wrote, and deciding what "style" it is. Like, if somebody gave you a piece of paper, and told you nothing about the author, you'd have as much luck guessing as flipping a coin. Maybe there's some clues in the topics they want to write about more, but even then I really, really doubt it.
I really feel like a lot of it is just cultural bias. We see what we expect to see, because a woman "should" write a certain way, based on our stereotypes. For example, there's a number of very successful female authors who have taken up either a male, or androgynous pen name, and nobody was able to tell the difference. The most famous of these would be I think George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans). Louisa May Alcott wrote under the name "A M Barnard" for a time. The Bronte Sisters wrote as a group of brothers with the name Bell. For more modern examples, J K Rowling is a pretty well-known. Also coming to mind are Ann Rule (Andy Stack) and Nora Roberts (J D Robb).
This works the other way around, too. Many men have written under a female name, again with no-one the wiser. One of the most notable that comes to my mind is Peter O'Donnell, who wrote as "Madeleine Brent". Several people, some of whom are men, wrote as Carolyn Keene (of the Nancy Drew series). In the world of romance novels, they are everywhere, like Tom Huff, who writes as Jennifer Wilde.
It's all about subject matter we expect from men and women, and our stereotypical expectations about what, and how, a male or female author writes. Rarely does anyone know until the author reveals themselves, because nobody is able to tell.
So I would say you can tell some things about the author, like organization or intelligence, from their writing. But not gender.
Agreed, Jera
Quote from: Auroramarianna on July 25, 2014, 09:29:39 AM
There's actually website where you can analyze pieces of your writing (with more than 300 words) and see if it comes in a "female" or "male" style http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php#Analyze
That's interosting. I find I can manipulate the results to "female" by writing and keying in on more phrases relating to intimate feelings.
But I know I'm definitely a male writer. (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi57.tinypic.com%2Fdmxkip.jpg&hash=a557c2f3108ad96868da6b4a3fe2ec57db6efeb6) I'm too tongue-in-cheek and droll to come off as a woman. ;D
Jill F has an awesome sig line (https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Foi60.tinypic.com%2F2mg8qs8.jpg&hash=aa2ea192b57b87daa38a109c2120f0acd95ae312)
"Same monkeys, different barrel." - Jennifer Finney Boylan
Quote from: Jera on July 25, 2014, 02:06:31 PM
I really don't think it's possible to tell what gender somebody is just by looking at some text they wrote, and deciding what "style" it is. Like, if somebody gave you a piece of paper, and told you nothing about the author, you'd have as much luck guessing as flipping a coin. Maybe there's some clues in the topics they want to write about more, but even then I really, really doubt it.
I really feel like a lot of it is just cultural bias. We see what we expect to see, because a woman "should" write a certain way, based on our stereotypes. For example, there's a number of very successful female authors who have taken up either a male, or androgynous pen name, and nobody was able to tell the difference. The most famous of these would be I think George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans). Louisa May Alcott wrote under the name "A M Barnard" for a time. The Bronte Sisters wrote as a group of brothers with the name Bell. For more modern examples, J K Rowling is a pretty well-known. Also coming to mind are Ann Rule (Andy Stack) and Nora Roberts (J D Robb).
This works the other way around, too. Many men have written under a female name, again with no-one the wiser. One of the most notable that comes to my mind is Peter O'Donnell, who wrote as "Madeleine Brent". Several people, some of whom are men, wrote as Carolyn Keene (of the Nancy Drew series). In the world of romance novels, they are everywhere, like Tom Huff, who writes as Jennifer Wilde.
It's all about subject matter we expect from men and women, and our stereotypical expectations about what, and how, a male or female author writes. Rarely does anyone know until the author reveals themselves, because nobody is able to tell.
So I would say you can tell some things about the author, like organization or intelligence, from their writing. But not gender.
Yes, I completely agree. I don't believe you can guess by their writing, there may be cues, but it's generally really not very obvious.
And also, there is a LOT of bias. If you introduce yourself as a female in the forum, they will start "reading you" differently - the fact that you disclosed as female already impacts what they are going to think about you and how they are going to perceive you. Someone may find your writing to seem "more masculine", but they'll never doubt you're female because you introduced yourself as such.
And Evelyn, gender guesser has an algorithm and certain keywords will you give either "masculine points" or "feminine points" and I think that's how they come with percentages, so it's really related to word usage. :) Words like "if", "with", "her", "myself" are as viewed as feminine words, while "the" and "an/a" are viwed as masculine.
I really think it's silly, because it also assumes masculinity and femminity are quantifiable, and I don't see how "her" gives feminine points but "him" doesn't, it just doesn't make sense at all to me.
Hi,
I love this topic and I agree with most of what is written. I especially agree with Jess that it is about communication. I also agree that sometimes it's hard to tell. However..... (I always have to disagree a little as I am a scientist.)
I've spent the last 30+ years writing technical documents. My technical writing bleeds over into daily communication, especially if I'm addressing where I start thinking hard. What I am writing about can dictate y writing style.
It's frustrating. For me to write like me, to write from y heart, I have to let go and be me, just Jen...just a woman. Sometimes, that's hard.
Hugs,
Just Jen
I like how you're saying that what you're writing about dictates your writing style, though I honestly believe that is more about perceptions than actual style. There's a lot more to how we think, and how we write, than just "male or female." I encounter a lot of people who seem think that because women think more emotionally, "feminine" writing is emotional writing, but I just don't feel like that's true. There's a lot more biases at work.
I'm a published writer, and I go by an androgynous pseudonym in my work. I don't believe I write "masculine" or "feminine", since I honestly don't believe there even is such a thing at all. The letters I get from my readers say different things, though, sometimes even different from each other.
If I'm writing a dark piece, they believe I'm male. If I write a happy piece, I tend to be perceived as female. If I write science fiction or mysteries, they think I'm male, and if I write romance, they think I'm female. And strangely (to me), even though "feminine" writing is emotional, when I feel very strongly about the topic I'm writing about, I see that male bias from my readers. When I'm more curious or thoughtful about it, female.
I believe that through all this, I have one voice, one writing "style," trying to communicate what I think or feel as effectively as I can at the time. But the responses I get are as diverse as the things I write about.
I may be wrong but writing in a professional capacity seems way different because there are all kinds of words to describe things to give the reader, your bread and butter, visual images in their mind. So in a professional capacity male and female would be indistiguishable because the whole ideal is to put the reader in your world and make it seem real. So writing a novel or some scientific paper would definately be hard to distinguish between male and female. And yeha Jera, I agree it would be stereotypical of males to write dark scary thrillers and females to write those racy love novels. But that really could be farther from the turth. There are women that write some pretty dark stuff and some men, usually under a psuedonym, write the racy love stories.
When I write things for my personal use like notes, reminders, and so on I tend to insert a lot of information really more so than needed. If I write something for somone else in a non formal or non professional capacity I still tend to add more than necissary.
I know this is kind of offtopic but I remember quite a few years ago when the 1-900 sex hotlines were really popular. One of the most popular "girls" that people would request from one was a 250 pound 6 ft something tall marine and pure masculine male. It actually made the news if anyone can remember back that far. He was doing it to make extra money and trained his voice to sound female and knew all the right stuff to say. I think he said he learned all the things to say from his wife. I just wonder how many guys had the "OH CRAP" moments when they found out who was turning them on over the phone. Just goes to show though. But sort of on topic, in a professional writing capacity I would think that your target readers is who you would be writing for whether males that write love stories or females that write dark thrillers.
Yeah, I actually tortured myself with this masculine/feminine communication thing for quite a while. I always feel like I use too many quantifiers, and I'm too demanding when I'm trying to tell people things.
But you know? Recently, I've kind of had to relax on the self-criticism. Because I realized, I was in a constant mindset of nitpicking all of the "flaws" in myself and using them as reasons to say to myself that I was an inadequate woman because I wasn't "female enough." And as part of this, I was constantly mentally criticizing other trans women for being unfeminine too. There were a lot of times where my roommate would be talking to me about trains and the military, and she often got very critical and confrontational rather than empathetic, and I started thinking "God, you still act like such a guy."
But I guess I realized, it's unfair criticism. It's "I'm a REAL woman" and "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" type thinking. And I realized that if I was ever going to be able to forgive myself for the parts of me that were unfeminine, I had to forgive other trans women for the parts of them that are likewise unfeminine, rather than constantly mentally organizing other trans women into heirarchies based on how feminine they were.
So yeah... the manner in which a lot of us speak is a bit non-traditionally-feminine. Admittedly. I see it all the time at my local trans support group, and I frankly have a lot of problems with it myself. But as much as I wish it were different, I can't change the fact that I was brought up as a boy. So I wasn't taught to defer, I wasn't taught to view myself as a helper rather than a leader, I wasn't brought up in the social environment where you couldn't be too sure of yourself otherwise the other girls would hate you for "thinking that you're all that," and I haven't been subjected to the same lifetime of microaggressions and misogyny that cis-girls have.
And I expect that over time, as I continue to live my life as a woman, my manner of expression will naturally become more feminine. But until then, I feel like I just have to accept that even if I am unfeminine, there's nothing I can do about it, and I have to stop criticizing myself for it if I want to be happy. Any time that you're thinking that you're better than someone else because you're more authentically female, or more female because you're passable, or more of a woman because you've had SRS, or because you transitioned younger, or any of these other things, it's probably not a good thing.
(And by the way, on these types of tests, I always end up getting androgynous scores. When typing my blog posts into it, I tend to get "weak male" when it's posts trying to talk about things or voice my opinion on things, and either "female" or "weak female" when it's just posts talking about myself. So maybe that's why I have such issue with these, is because I catch myself simultaneously setting myself higher up on some imaginary heirarchy because I didn't score male, and yet simultaneously viewing myself as lesser because I don't score definitively female.)
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 25, 2014, 06:01:27 PM
Many good insights
I've known many cis-women who treat each other the exact same way. Any woman who rejects her traditional gender-role in society will have that accusation thrown at her in some way just for being herself, whether she rejects the stereotype as a whole, or in part. I don't think that makes her any less a woman, any less feminine, than anyone else. Just less
traditionally so.
Quote from: Jess42 on July 25, 2014, 04:25:02 PM
I may be wrong but writing in a professional capacity seems way different because there are all kinds of words to describe things to give the reader, your bread and butter, visual images in their mind. So in a professional capacity male and female would be indistiguishable because the whole ideal is to put the reader in your world and make it seem real.
Is it really so different? Both are working on the idea that the way men and women communicate their thoughts are fundamentally different. We have all kinds of words to use in everyday conversation as well, that help us share what's in our thoughts. If there truly was such a difference, I feel like it really should be
more apparent in a longer work, not less. You have so much more access to the writer's mind in something novel-length as opposed to a two sentence forum posting or email. I also know people who still think that women are inferior at writing technical documents.
The only difference, in my opinion, is how we as a society believe people are
supposed to think and act, not how they actually do. Plenty of cis people either embrace or reject these stereotypes, too. I think the difference is that as trans*, we are hyperaware of them.
I did the hackerfactory.com test on some of the posts I did at Susan's. I was rated as a weak female possible European.
Genre: Informal
Female = 539
Male = 422
Difference = -117; 43.91%
Verdict: Weak FEMALE
Weak emphasis could indicate European
Genre: Formal
Female = 494
Male = 424
Difference = -70; 46.18%
Verdict: Weak FEMALE
Weak emphasis could indicate European.
I am an engineer and communicate with Engineers and Architects daily as well as Doctors, Nurses Scientists and support persons. When I communicate I change my style depending on the person or content. To a person I know I open the e-mail with a greeting and asking how they have been or their child or children or new house. I use emoticons depending on the communication or person. I am polite and say please and thank you. I guess the style is greeting, content and salutation. I never though my writing to be gendered and I am from Philadelphia so European I am not (very flattering though).
I really dislike how some people are rude with e-mail. I sometimes wonder why people would want to help them other than being paid.
I get more feminine every day with my communication.
But hey, I am one of those ladies who shocked everyone when I came out. I have a lot of masculine behavior patterns that I need to deal with. I do not get too hung up on it. I am sort of a bullish lesbian.
But then I start thinking about shoes. Shooooooooes!!!
Quote from: Carrie Liz on July 25, 2014, 06:01:27 PM
Yeah, I actually tortured myself with this masculine/feminine communication thing for quite a while. I always feel like I use too many quantifiers, and I'm too demanding when I'm trying to tell people things.
But you know? Recently, I've kind of had to relax on the self-criticism. Because I realized, I was in a constant mindset of nitpicking all of the "flaws" in myself and using them as reasons to say to myself that I was an inadequate woman because I wasn't "female enough." And as part of this, I was constantly mentally criticizing other trans women for being unfeminine too. There were a lot of times where my roommate would be talking to me about trains and the military, and she often got very critical and confrontational rather than empathetic, and I started thinking "God, you still act like such a guy."
But I guess I realized, it's unfair criticism. It's "I'm a REAL woman" and "->-bleeped-<-r than thou" type thinking. And I realized that if I was ever going to be able to forgive myself for the parts of me that were unfeminine, I had to forgive other trans women for the parts of them that are likewise unfeminine, rather than constantly mentally organizing other trans women into heirarchies based on how feminine they were.
So yeah... the manner in which a lot of us speak is a bit non-traditionally-feminine. Admittedly. I see it all the time at my local trans support group, and I frankly have a lot of problems with it myself. But as much as I wish it were different, I can't change the fact that I was brought up as a boy. So I wasn't taught to defer, I wasn't taught to view myself as a helper rather than a leader, I wasn't brought up in the social environment where you couldn't be too sure of yourself otherwise the other girls would hate you for "thinking that you're all that," and I haven't been subjected to the same lifetime of microaggressions and misogyny that cis-girls have.
And I expect that over time, as I continue to live my life as a woman, my manner of expression will naturally become more feminine. But until then, I feel like I just have to accept that even if I am unfeminine, there's nothing I can do about it, and I have to stop criticizing myself for it if I want to be happy. Any time that you're thinking that you're better than someone else because you're more authentically female, or more female because you're passable, or more of a woman because you've had SRS, or because you transitioned younger, or any of these other things, it's probably not a good thing.
(And by the way, on these types of tests, I always end up getting androgynous scores. When typing my blog posts into it, I tend to get "weak male" when it's posts trying to talk about things or voice my opinion on things, and either "female" or "weak female" when it's just posts talking about myself. So maybe that's why I have such issue with these, is because I catch myself simultaneously setting myself higher up on some imaginary heirarchy because I didn't score male, and yet simultaneously viewing myself as lesser because I don't score definitively female.)
I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter Ms. Liz. This was an eye opener on so many levels.
Love the OP. However gendering writing style is like gendering colour, clothing, leadership competencies etc - inherently fallacious.
For example, those working in a structured environment where they have been trained or see benefit in an analytic mindset will usually write in a structured manner in all work related or formal situations. However they may or may not write or think differently in prose or when communicating with friends in social situations.
In my professional life I see many of the most successful female leaders demonstrate much stronger 'masculine' attributes, including communication style, than many of their male colleagues. Depending upon your perspective, narrative etc you could reach many quite different interpretations and each would have merit. But trying to attribute thinking and writing as arising from a feminine or masculine brain is, I think, a bridge too far.
Aisla
I realize it is pretty much subjective, and dependent on the subject matter being written about, I guess I was speaking in more generalities.. .. For an example.. On FB, I'm the creator and mod for a Sisters group I started at the end of last year.. There were so many girls on there that were asking for "prayers for xxxxx, as she's having a hard time" or "guys, can you keep xxxxx in your thoughts as she having surgery next week and it's not good" etc... So I made a group, where the collective power of their thoughts and prayers could be for those needing them.. Sort of an Intention group.. well, I was noticing, my writing style was really no different from the cisfemales (nearly 150 of them) that were posting and replying. It was this which fostered the notion that our .. communicative style may be identified as being a particular gender.. I realize, the subject can very much influence the style, but if it is more emotionally based, would you be seen as male or female. How you would actually emote, would that reinforce or contradict what your brain, or heart, is telling you, and others.
idk, maybe I'm just thinking it too girly.. or trying to see something that may not be there. As I said, there are prom queens, and roller derby queens (not intending stereotypes) and each have their own communicative style, I just wondered if it would be apparent.
I seem to think, move, write etc........ in a much more feminine normal fashion when I'm on my normal level of estrogen. I've had to stop hrt some during surgery, etc.....& I sure felt just "wrong"????
Sorry, I feel like I went a little ranty in here the other day. This idea kind of irritates me.
It really seems to me like what you're saying is that some girls speak and act like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIxfiDZqVew
And some do, to be sure (some men deliberately do, too). But it's kind of a HUGE leap to say that because some girls act this way, anyone who does not, is not communicating with "true female conviction, emotion, and spirit" (like stated in the OP). Like the many, many women who do not act like this are communicating from a "male brain."
The gender guesser thing seems to constantly gender me as male, but it doesn't seem to pick up on the increase in emotions I've been showing in my characters since I began transitioning and really letting my emotions flow for once.
I have wondered and worried about this, mostly on here. I do seem to have a more femme feel to my writing when my writing is alcohol induced ( maybe it gets me to relax or maybe it just kills my ability to inhibit myself so the female comes out?) Most of the day at work my writing is technical and NEEDS to be succinct and easily understood, so it may just be habit. I really doubt that gender can be accurately determined by a piece of writing, but there is a lot that can have very definite male or female voice.
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,165725.msg1433737.html#msg1433737 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,165725.msg1433737.html#msg1433737) not sure if this is close enough related, but some of the posts might fit this thread for Info's sake.
I'd say we've always been thinking in a female mindset. It's just a lot of us have it suppressed by either the culture's we're raised in or when we try to be hyper masculine to "fit in"
I used to wonder about that. I believe that what I do and say, how I act, etc., is from a female brain simply because I am female. My thoughts and expression of those thoughts in what I write will be influenced by my male existence and experiences, but nevertheless, it still comes from my female brain. Many of us essentially live in two worlds, the male world because of our physical being and female world because of our mental being. To me that simply means that though female, all that I do and think is influenced by my male existence. That will determine how I express myself in whatever manner by the years I've lived in my male persona. At 60 years, my persona may appear to be more masculine that someone at 20 years, though we are both in fact female (transsexual or transgendered, however we describe ourselves). I hope this makes sense...
Hi,
I know what your trying to say,
My self i would not know what a male brain is like , well yes i do its a bit bigger than a normal female brain ,and it works a bit different because of how our bodys are configgered ,
now for us child bearing, hormones and our different parts organs and a lot more beside makes us different and that starts at concecption or if you like our program ,
Now yes we do have a different style if you like and how we see things and react and more so our Emotions very very different in many ways yet some femaleare more male like in many aspects so dont just think we are all the same we are not and we can be so different .
I was born with a hard wired female brain though not 100 % and i would not say i was , around 96 % because i was born with out my womb and some of us are due to being intersex, so we come different in many ways ,
Writing , could never write let alone put words together as for other detail like grammer or compoitsion and explaning my self in words reason being i have major dyslexa as youll see, i try and some times i get it right other wise..........
Im just a female and i dont know any different and how that plays out i let others judge on that , though i am accepted for who i am and the way i am so ,
Hey im different , and thats it really ,you know it would be nice to be feminine , i am as far as being female is concerned just not with my looks yet people look past how i look and just accept myself i dont need to explain my self any more done that Nation Wide , and people do know about myself and its not a concern that they have , they see a female they accept a female and that covers every thing i do ,
Of cause the most importaint detail..... is...... you accept your self ,
I have confidence in my self as a woman, and im strong enough to carry my self where ever i go and what i do , so you take all of the person as a whole and from that comes acceptance from others as they see you ......the real person .
...noeleena...
Quote from: Auroramarianna on July 25, 2014, 09:29:39 AM
That's very veryyyy subjective.
I think I write with a "female brain" because ultimately that's who I am, so if I am female, my brain must be female too, right?
There's actually website where you can analyze pieces of your writing (with more than 300 words) and see if it comes in a "female" or "male" style http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.php#Analyze
I find it a bit sexist, it's very appropriating. The people who created gender guesser claim that it is accurate about 60-70% of time, and I have tested and checked pieces of writing from men and women, and there were lots who came in the wrong gender. So I really don't know.
It's so hard to distinguish such thing, it's too conceptual, variable and subjective. Just because I perceive my writing to be feminine and Gender Guesser validates my belief doesn't mean other people see in the way I see myself.
Because I write for a living, I've been really fascinated by this subject and addicted to the various algorithms that claim to be able to detect the gender of a writer. What I've discovered is ...
- When I write a straightforward piece of journalism, it comes out male. But a cis-woman writing that kind of stuff would likely come out male, too, because one of the big things the algorithms look for is whether you use basic pronouns like 'a' or 'the' before a noun (male), or you more often make them possessive: 'his', 'hers' etc. In news-reporting, you stick to the facts, Jack, so there are lots of 'a's and 'the's. Also, women talk and write about other women much more than men talk or write about women, so 'she' and 'her' are high-scoring female words. But women - as any feminist could tell you - don't feature nearly as much in the news as men. So again, journalism automatically skews towards a male style.
- When I'm writing fiction, action-sequences also come out very male ... because, uh, they are. Most times if there's a fight scene, or a gun-battle it's guy-on-guy (not always, but more often than not), and the way one writes an action scene is very pared-down, keeping it structurally simple, concentrating on very clear descriptions of what is going on. Again: male.
BUT ...
- When I write romantic scenes, they score very high on the female scale, and ...
- When I write chatty emails to friends, especially female friends, or post on sites like this one - particularly if I'm discussing personal, or emotional issues, then again, I'm off the chart female.
So the more I'm writing as myself, from the heart, the more female I am. Which I love!!
And before you ask: I put this post (up to the last sentence, above) into Hacker Factor, which judges prose under two categories: formal (professional letters/memos, books, reporting) and informal (posts, messages to friends, chat, etc). As formal prose it scored (by an overwhelming margin): FEMALE ... but as informal prose it was overwhelmingly: MALE.
Go figure! :)
Quote from: Donna E on July 25, 2014, 01:15:14 PM
I'm always curious about tests, for fun if nothing else, so I fed different pieces of my writing to the Gender Guesser, some work related and some more personal. It's probably worth mentioning that when I have time, I really enjoy writing and may even get around to writing a book some day. However, I'm also an engineer by training (life sciences though, not one of those horrible "binary" disciplines .. :-) ) but still trained to think more or less in a logical manner... ;)
Anyway, as all of my input material could be considered formal ie. fiction, non-fiction, essays, reports, I only looked at the "Formal" results. End of the day, my professional writing was classed as "Weak Male" and my personal writing as "Weak Female" and I just loved the little remark "Weak emphasis could indicate European".
Hi Donna,
I usually stay away from these "gender" tests because they often seem easy to manipulate to get the response you're looking for. Anyway, I entered two of my responses on this forum into this Guesser. The shorter response indicated "female" for informal and "male" for former. The longer response was shown as "weak female" for both informal and formal. I'm sure my military career couldn't have possibly been an influence on my writing style ::) It was an interesting test as is the information on how it was developed. Hugs.
Kathy
I was reading through and I just have a question.
First is that I've been told all my life that how I talk, walk, act, just in general I seem very feminine, but I don't feel that way because of what I look and feel like right now. Also when I write, from previous postings on this site, I am very very descriptive if need be. Pretty much I can't describe it with my mouth, but I can write just about anything in great detail as I think it.
Does any of this or can any of this equate to a female writing style or thinking? If this didn't make any sense just let me know. Right now I just got up so the brain isn't full sway as of yet.
Quote from: ZoeM on July 25, 2014, 10:05:32 AM
I'm always annoyed by how little I write - one or two sentence replies while everyone else is penning paragraphs - but I do all my Susan's contributions on a phone so maybe I have an excuse?
Anyway - in my longer-form writing (read: novel!), I do focus a lot on characters' thoughts and less on their actions. So I feel like I'm vindicated even if my online writing is terse to the point of comedy.
That and, I can remember even back when I was twelve-ish, some folks I was playing games with thought I was a girl just because of how I communicated in chat. At the time I was inwardly quite pleased with myself, but didn't say anything.
Writing in one or two sentences is actually just normal internet writing for either sex. I find if I ever go on for more than a paragraph I start losing people, and a paragraph is really pushing it. I would say though, if you can get your point across concisely, you are being a more effective communicator, which is a skill! Not always easy.
I don't know if my writing is more male or female. My casual style is very different from my formal style, for sure. I also know my writing style has really evolved over the past few years (not something I consciously tried to do) I don't even recognize myself in older things I wrote. I don't know what that means...
Quote from: Jen on July 30, 2014, 07:57:57 PM
I also know my writing style has really evolved over the past few years (not something I consciously tried to do) I don't even recognize myself in older things I wrote. I don't know what that means...
It means you have grown and evolved as a person, which is a very good thing. :) This happens to a lot of people.
Quote from: Jera on July 30, 2014, 08:03:09 PM
It means you have grown and evolved as a person, which is a very good thing. :) This happens to a lot of people.
:) Maybe.
Do you all believe in that gender guesser thing? I was thinking of pasting in some of my old posts and seeing what it thought of my writing, strictly out of curiosity, but I am like Zoe and it's hard to find many I have made with enough words to make a good sample.
Well, I can only go by what others who read my writing tell me, and most of my friends tell me even long before transition I write like a girl. I tend to use a lot of adjectives in my writing which I've been told is, even when I was in high school, a more feminine trait. In addition my handwriting is inherently female as I tend to use circles over i's and j's rather than dots, and so forth, which I still do to this day because it comes natural.
However, when it comes to gender guessing websites I tend not to put much stock in them because writing styles are as diverse as grains of sand, and one can drive one's self crazy pondering over them trying to decide whether their writing meets a stereotypical female or male standard. I've been a member here now for a while and y'all have read some of my posts, so I'll let you be the judges as to whether my typewritten posts tend to have more female or male attributes.
Allie :icon_flower:
I believe that this stereotypes how only a fraction of people communicate. We all act completely different, and sometimes we tell people they seem strange, or weird to us. (Like me, people call me weird.)This creates a type of negative diversity. Furthermore, writing is a type of expression, and we cannot judge people on how they transfer information into our minds. Sterotyping people into "we act like a girl" and "we act like a boy" or "we act like a type of person" only creates diffeterence in society. In order to become a more culturally accepting society, we need to rid away sayings like "you act like a girly girl" and let people be who they want to be.As for trans men and women, I believe people should just be who they truly want to be. For those worrying about "passing," can't you just say you're a tomboy or a sensitive male? There is no need for one to be a stereotypical person, if someone questions you, then put them on the spot! It's normal for males and females to do what they want, even if they want to cross "boundary" lines.