EDIT: If there is a better subject title to use, I am open to suggestions :)
This thread is being created so we can highlight the similarities or ways non-binary and binary members can co-exist happily without tensions between one another, that we are similar to each other and we can begin to learn we really aren't so much different from each other as we think - we are only human after all!
If you like, you can also suggest how we can get to that place of acceptance in order to support your example of how we are similar now but there is a gap between us at the moment.
To clarify, I'm well aware of the differences between non-binary and binary so please refrain from bringing this into the thread as it will add very little to the topic and will only serve to divide the community further, instead of closer. Please leave those discussions and any personal grudges for another thread. Thank you!
Here are some examples I have thought of:
- Non-binary and MTF sharing make-up tips, helping each other out by giving suggestions on fashion and maybe even going shopping together, having fun and laughing together.
- Non-binary and MTF/FTM sharing their HRT and/or surgery experiences openly with one another, both of them accepting the other on the choices they have made.
- Non-binary and MTF/FTM relating to one another's experiences and learning more about each other. Questioning is encouraged as how else will you be able to understand each other better?
The key is to not take the questions personally and that, hopefully, the person delivering the questions is coming from a heartfelt place, not a place of judgement. This goes for advice as well.
Is there any other situations you all can think of? Everyone is encouraged to join in! I am excited to see what everyone comes up with. Hopefully this thread can serve to bring us all closer than ever before!
i have experienced female puberty.
it's really fun to not be able to tell mtf members how cis girls experience just the same pains when breasts start to grow.
i have never experienced male puberty.
but i have enough brothers to know even things that many who're far into ftm transition don't know about male society.
we're all humans, and none of us are particularly cissexual.
i think those are the biggest things we have in common.
We are similar in name. From what I have understood "Transgender" is an umbrella term for any gender variance outside of CIS, which we all are.. I rather like the name Transgender, to me its unifying, plus most CIS call anyone displaying gender differences Trans, and that feels fine to me also, at least they are trying to figure it out in most cases..
We all are on a path that is taking us in directions away from the gender binaries male/female, we all just find our place somewhere along that path, but we're all neighbors, and family in a very real way..
We all realize that because of how we each feel deep inside, there can be great pain, heartache and misery involved with the gender we are born with, we all share in that at different times in our journeys, and our pain can unite us, because in most cases we are the only ones who truely know how that feels like, and are able to sympathize in a personal way..
We all are beautiful people who are born special, and regardless of the place we are on the gender path, or which of us have treatments or surgery's, or need none at all, we are still cut from the same cloth, made by the same God, and all shine together in our own unique way..
I know that this topic is in response to some reported unrest between forums discussed in an earlier topic.. But I just don't see any of that, there is so much we have in common, and such a strong bond keeping us together..
Maybe if when we post on the board here, we can stop noticing which forum we're posting on, and just concentrate on helping, caring for, and loving each other as one big Transgender family, this will never be an issue again, and we will always keep close our similarities, and forget about any differences...
Hugs everybody.....
The seeds of unity have been planted with open opportunity to grow. Thank you. Patty
OK, I'm probably going to be smited and flamed, but here's my theory.
I think what's going on in our brains is exactly the same. That non-binary and binary both have an internally wired gender identity that is at odds with their physical sex.
The difference in how that internal identity feels to us. To some of us it feels like a male/female in a female/male body. To others, the feeling is more complicated. The gender roles we've taken on, the realities of our anatomy, and the expectations we've lived with mix with our brain wiring to produce any number of non-binary manifestations of being trangender - all the diverse species in our forest.
Both types of experience are equally real, equally valid. Neither of us are "less trans" or "more trans" than the other. They're just different ways being trans.
At least that's my theory.
and that's a really great theory, suzi. we should do research on it!
I believe that we're not all the same and neither should it matter. Not being the same =/= being less.
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 07:42:47 AM
OK, I'm probably going to be smited and flamed, but here's my theory.
I think what's going on in our brains is exactly the same. That non-binary and binary both have an internally wired gender identity that is at odds with their physical sex.
The difference in how that internal identity feels to us. To some of us it feels like a male/female in a female/male body. To others, the feeling is more complicated. The gender roles we've taken on, the realities of our anatomy, and the expectations we've lived with mix with our brain wiring to produce any number of non-binary manifestations of being trangender - all the diverse species in our forest.
Both types of experience are equally real, equally valid. Neither of us are "less trans" or "more trans" than the other. They're just different ways being trans.
At least that's my theory.
Great theory.
I find no matter where you are in the spectrum there are others who will hold judgment on others.
It's that human nature thing that we complain so much against but hold it so deeply in our own community.
I have been around the community since 99 and it was there back then.
What is the answer?
Tear down the kairarchy and all it's cistems of control.
I like cheese. Anyone else?
Similarities vs differences could be eliminated if we could only removed the barriers that serve to separate us.
Society has traditionally established a separationist binary (female-male) structure with: the clothes we wear; the sports in which we participate; the work (jobs) which we do; our separate public restrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, etc; and in many other activities and facilities.
Some minor trends to break down some of the barriers have began. However, we will never experience full acceptance of each other until all of these unrealistic barriers are totally eliminated.
Quote from: Taka on September 22, 2014, 02:15:45 AM
we're all humans, and none of us are particularly cissexual.
i think those are the biggest things we have in common.
Amen!
Quote from: Mark3 on September 22, 2014, 03:01:37 AM
We all are beautiful people who are born special, and regardless of the place we are on the gender path, or which of us have treatments or surgery's, or need none at all, we are still cut from the same cloth, made by the same God, and all shine together in our own unique way..
Beautiful post, Mark3. And can I just say, I love your signature too? :)
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 07:42:47 AM
OK, I'm probably going to be smited and flamed, but here's my theory.
Please do not worry about being smited or flamed. Just like everyone else here, you have a unique perspective and your post was evidence of such! Never be afraid to speak your thoughts :icon_hug:
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 07:42:47 AM
Both types of experience are equally real, equally valid. Neither of us are "less trans" or "more trans" than the other. They're just different ways being trans.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. I once made a quote on another website that, "There is no one way to be trans." because a lot of transgender individuals I encountered were insisting that there was only "one" way and that if you do not do it in the manner or order that they do it in, then you are not "trans enough" *puke*
Great theory though, Suzi! I think you're onto something there!
Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 08:10:41 AM
I believe that we're not all the same and neither should it matter. Not being the same =/= being less.
Oh, I certainly agree we are all not the same but we all do share the same brain in the sense that we are all human, just with different make-ups such as biological, genetic, environmental, sexual orientation, gender identity and so on. The topic is about the similarities between one another, not about being the same as the other but I have a hunch you might have been responding to Suzi? I didn't want to assume. You are certainly right though, not being the same as others shouldn't mean that we should be treated any less.
Just like cisgender individuals are not any less than transgender individuals.
Just like non-binary members aren't any more important than binary members.
We are all on the same equal ground. When we put our ego aside, the truth is nobody is inferior or superior than anyone else here.
We are all very complex creatures and unique in our own little ways. This would be wonderful to celebrate together as a community.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 08:43:00 AM
kairarchy
Kai-wha? I had to Google that one! ;D
Quote from: mrs izzy on September 22, 2014, 08:14:00 AM
I find no matter where you are in the spectrum there are others who will hold judgment on others.
It's that human nature thing that we complain so much against but hold it so deeply in our own community.
I have been around the community since 99 and it was there back then.
What is the answer?
I agree that it is human nature and that's always going to be something that will be encountered again and again. What is normal to one is considered abnormal to another. We cannot control how people react to what is different and their judgement but what we can do is change how we react to it.
For example, I desire a body that is sexless, devoid of sexual characteristics of either sex to win the battle of my body dysphoria altogether. In this forum, from what I've observed, there is a vast majority who are working hard to achieve a body that matches their mind, those who have decided a binary transition only to realize they are non-binary, those who are content with their body without surgeries, along with those who are happy to be in-between binaries or neither altogether. I appear to be the only one who is happy with being neither binary but also would like to correct my body to reflect this - I am a minority within a minority and I do not mind. While I am making strides towards my goals in a different way to others, I am completely supportive of other's paths and dreams.
I believe the answer is acceptance, respect, kindness, communication, patience and time. See, it takes months, even many, many years for parents to understand their children being transgender, to accept and support them. It makes sense that we should treat the members of our community in the same way. They are our family members and if they are struggling to understand, it should be met with compassion and understanding - after all, it may have taken us many years to get to the level of understanding of ourselves to begin with.
Then there will be people that will never be able to understand, even after many years have passed. My father is a one example, it's been six years since I came out as trans, four of those years I've been on testosterone and sadly, he still calls me my female name and female pronouns in public and at home. At this point, you cannot change someone but you can change how you react to them. In my instance, I have accepted the possibility that he will never accept me as a male. Whether he accepts me or not is not a matter that concerns me anymore. He is my father, I am his child, that is what matters. As long as we connect as human beings as we laugh over the silly things I did as a child that made him smile fondly, that is all that matters.
I hope we can adopt this attitude to members on the forum here. Continue to communicate with others, offering education if they ask for it, and if they do not understand or refuse to, simply accept it. To accept is not to admit defeat. People who cannot understand should never be condemned or treated as inferior. Shower them with love and support regardless. In the end, they are only human.
Quote from: Jill F on September 22, 2014, 08:47:03 AM
I like cheese. Anyone else?
I love cheese - I also love them melted on some french fries. Yum, yum! :icon_giggle: Okay, getting a bit off-topic now! ;)
Quote from: mac1 on September 22, 2014, 12:05:58 PM
Similarities vs differences could be eliminated if we could only removed the barriers that serve to separate us.
Society has traditionally established a separationist binary (female-male) structure with: the clothes we wear; the sports in which we participate; the work (jobs) which we do; our separate public restrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, etc; and in many other activities and facilities.
Some minor trends to break down some of the barriers have began. However, we will never experience full acceptance of each other until all of these unrealistic barriers are totally eliminated.
And that will take many years to happen. Society has become increasingly dependent on the binary, I don't see it going anywhere anytime soon. The rules surrounding the binary has been slowly bending, such as putting unisex bathrooms for transgender individuals in high-school/college and including unisex toilets elsewhere. Supposed LGBT-friendly clubs continue believe only straight, gay, lesbians exist, effectively excluding transgender and non-binary individuals (this is in my local area though, not a worldwide representation as far as I know). I feel that society and LGBTQ community both have a ways to go before the binary structures can be dismantled.
I disagree, I believe we can accept one another even in a society that is dominated by binary rules. People are slowly becoming more open and accepting of transgender individuals, even in a binary-dominated world, why should non-binary be the exception?
This thread is about how we can build a community closer by pointing out the similarities in our paths and how we can support one another. Crushing the binary system isn't exactly going to magically cause people to accept one another. I can see how and why the binary rules affect each and every one of us in a different way but I struggle to see how the binary system could the sole reason why people are unable to accept one another. I am sorry, I am really finding that difficult to believe. :(
Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 22, 2014, 12:35:00 PM
Oh, I certainly agree we are all not the same but we all do share the same brain in the sense that we are all human, just with different make-ups such as biological, genetic, environmental, sexual orientation, gender identity and so on. The topic is about the similarities between one another, not about being the same as the other but I have a hunch you might have been responding to Suzi? I didn't want to assume. You are certainly right though, not being the same as others shouldn't mean that we should be treated any less.
Just like cisgender individuals are not any less than transgender individuals.
Just like non-binary members aren't any more important than binary members.
We are all on the same equal ground. When we put our ego aside, the truth is nobody is inferior or superior than anyone else here.
We are all very complex creatures and unique in our own little ways. This would be wonderful to celebrate together as a community.
It was actually more of being wary on my part of the NB community being the ones that have to educate binary identified types about what it means to be non-binary. I'm definitely beginning to think that binary privilege exists, from my own experiences and from just watching and listening, and putting the onus on us to find reasons why we're the same as binary identified individuals feels like a derailing tactic. I think there's something more going on and I'm trying to get a good handle as to what it is exactly. I let you know once I've got something more concrete.
Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 22, 2014, 12:35:00 PM
Kai-wha? I had to Google that one! ;D
It's been my favourite word since I learnt it a few months ago
Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 22, 2014, 12:35:00 PM
I believe the answer is acceptance, respect, kindness, communication, patience and time. See, it takes months, even many, many years for parents to understand their children being transgender, to accept and support them. It makes sense that we should treat the members of our community in the same way. They are our family members and if they are struggling to understand, it should be met with compassion and understanding - after all, it may have taken us many years to get to the level of understanding of ourselves to begin with.
Respecting each others differences is the most important thing, but I'm not sure that always happens >:(
the one and only privilege i've seen that the binary trans people have... is a right to treatment in my country.
i don't have that right. because i'm non-binary.
but!
that doesn't mean it's my binary trans friends who cause this, nor their mentality. it's just the stupid government here who love to play nanny.
we still have similarities though. many binary people don't get the treatment they need either. in this same system.
out in society, i don't really know if the binary have any privilege over the non-binary.
we're all humans trying to get by. the non-binary who dares to be different, will often get respect, and even a little bit of envy from the binary who doesn't dare to be as different as they really are.
adding to the beautiful diversity of human society. that is something we all have in common. even with the cis.
Quote from: Taka on September 23, 2014, 02:18:52 AM
the one and only privilege i've seen that the binary trans people have... is a right to treatment in my country.
i don't have that right. because i'm non-binary.
but!
that doesn't mean it's my binary trans friends who cause this, nor their mentality. it's just the stupid government here who love to play nanny.
we still have similarities though. many binary people don't get the treatment they need either. in this same system.
out in society, i don't really know if the binary have any privilege over the non-binary.
we're all humans trying to get by. the non-binary who dares to be different, will often get respect, and even a little bit of envy from the binary who doesn't dare to be as different as they really are.
adding to the beautiful diversity of human society. that is something we all have in common. even with the cis.
I'm trying to think of a word other than 'privilege' to describe this issue, because I agree! I don't believe in lateral oppression; that is to say, I don't think that binary trans ppl can oppress non-binary trans ppl (and vice versa) when we are all occupying the same rung of 'not cis' and struggling because of it. I worry that talking about 'binary privilege' or 'non-binary privilege' shifts the criticism off of where it ought to be, the cis-centric system, and accidentally back onto trans folks just trying to get by.
It's important to me that nb specific troubles get discussed, and that we do recognize and
validate the differences btwn the nb and binary experience. Nb ppl should be afforded the opportunity to speak up about the places in which the system fails us as nb people, rather than more broadly as trans people*, but I don't want to do that by throwing anyone under the bus, or giving transphobic people more ammunition b/c lord knows they'll take any chance. :-\
It's so tricky.
(*And so should binary trans ppl, obvs!)
Cheese has a lot of calories, so does cake, doesn't mean I don't like them, or cheesecake though I'd rather not think about them right now...
The biggest similarity is that we are all people whose mental gender does not exactly match the expectations of the one assigned to us at birth.
I'm bigender/genderfluid, I sometimes actually do feel basically cis-gender and sometimes completely transexual, though I'm increasingly feeling more in the middle, though that too feels uncomfortable at times...I feel like I'm on both sides on this...which is not unusual...
I'd like to see everyone just be able to be themselves, whatever that might be, and I think most Non-Binary & Binary Members actually feel the same way...
There may be those that think everyone here is exactly the same as what you might be, and that too might be a similarity, even if it is one that causes differences.
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 22, 2014, 07:42:47 AM
OK, I'm probably going to be smited and flamed, but here's my theory.
I think what's going on in our brains is exactly the same. That non-binary and binary both have an internally wired gender identity that is at odds with their physical sex.
The difference in how that internal identity feels to us. To some of us it feels like a male/female in a female/male body. To others, the feeling is more complicated. The gender roles we've taken on, the realities of our anatomy, and the expectations we've lived with mix with our brain wiring to produce any number of non-binary manifestations of being trangender - all the diverse species in our forest.
Both types of experience are equally real, equally valid. Neither of us are "less trans" or "more trans" than the other. They're just different ways being trans.
At least that's my theory.
I agree completely, it's a very simplistic and I think accurate analysis. Before I ever heard of binary and non-binary I was clocked FtM or as a dyke by some MtF people at open trans support meetings and always thought it rather humorous. I had been asked by a few cis people, "What are you, male or female?" My pat answer was always either "I'm me!" or "Take your pick, whatever blows your hair back!" My sense of humor and a certain presence and self assuredness in public has always helped.
Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 01:42:11 PM
It was actually more of being wary on my part of the NB community being the ones that have to educate binary identified types about what it means to be non-binary. I'm definitely beginning to think that binary privilege exists, from my own experiences and from just watching and listening, and putting the onus on us to find reasons why we're the same as binary identified individuals feels like a derailing tactic.
I agree. I've become aware that it is as strong as ever. Defensive reasoning to protect a singular world view.
Binary privilege exists to such an extent that there are non-binaries who accept it in their own thinking.
It has existed for so long that it is considered the normal, there are even those who aren't able to recognize it, and make excuses in defense of it.
Even in some who consider themselves to not be binary, they still accept it as the normal, defending it as if it is.
So when the going gets tough, accept it and go to the beach and explain it to the wind that is there as well.
Ativan
Quote from: EchelonHunt on September 22, 2014, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: Dread_Faery on September 22, 2014, 08:43:00 AM
Tear down the kairarchy and all it's cistems of control.
Kai-wha? I had to Google that one! ;D
Do you mean
kyriarchy?
When I try it, Google can't find "kairarchy" (which I've never heard of.)
It suggests Kyriarchy (which I have heard of.)
Also: is "cistems" supposed to mean something other than "systems"?
(Not intended as a spelling flame, I honestly don't know if you're trying to say "tear down the kyriarchy and its systems of control" or something different.)
Quote from: Asche on September 25, 2014, 01:39:34 PM
Kai-wha? I had to Google that one! ;D
Do you mean kyriarchy?
When I try it, Google can't find "kairarchy" (which I've never heard of.)
It suggests Kyriarchy (which I have heard of.)
Also: is "cistems" supposed to mean something other than "systems"?
(Not intended as a spelling flame, I honestly don't know if you're trying to say "tear down the kyriarchy and its systems of control" or something different.)
I can never spell it right, cistem is kind of shorthand used in queer activist spaces basically and basically just means cis sexist systems of oppression. It's also a bit of a pun, and we all know puns rock
I think I get why some binary trans people might not be cool with NB trans people.
It's a little like in the USA when I was growing up. There were the African-Americans who were trying to prove that they were just as moral, hardworking, law-abiding, intelligent, educated, etc., as white people. (Which meant they had to be more so than whites.) They often feared that African-Americans who weren't that way or who in any way lived up to the (negative) stereotypes of black people would make whites think that, underneath their good behavior, they were no different from the "bad negros" and thus were a threat to their own hopes of being accepted.
If you're a binary trans person who just wants to live and feel normal and wants to pass as the gender you identify as, you might feel that trans people who don't fit into the gender binary will reinforce the stereotype that trans people are weirdos and perverts and make things worse for all trans people. (I've had people tell me that.) You might even resent people who challenge the gender system that you hope to fit into so you can live a normal life.
This is something I really can't understand and in the last few weeks it has seemed to go down hill. :( What exactly is binary and non binary? I always assumed that binary was cis and tied to their gender physically and mentally and non binary had a disconnect between their inside and outside genders. Thus not bound to their physically born gender. Then they either decided to change the appearance of their physical gender to match the inner gender. Or try to let both sides coexist. OK maybe I may be wrong. I am MTF non binary so I am sitting on the fence trying to decide which way to swing my legs and jump off of the fence. I really wish someone would push me. ??? I think I may be pushing myself to the female but at times I really don't know.
The biggest similarity that I can think of is we all are different. We are all unique. We all have different lives we chose to live and none is actually more important or legitimate than anyone else's. Another one is that we are all on Susan's questioning, seeking guidance or experience in other's life experiences. It kills me that there are so many that are separated between non binary to binary. No it really don't kill me, I am not that fortunate, but it hurts me that there is this conflict that seems to be going on. I accept everyone. I love everyone as a brother or sister. If I had a person come up to me on the street wearing a cute pink sundress and sporting a beard, it wouldn't bother me in the least. We are outside of the gender norms that society has set for us and I love and respect Shantel and others as being non binary as much as I love and respect Cindy and others for transitioning and planning SRS. I have learned a lot from both. All I am forever grateful too on this sight, even the younger members for their experiences even though I am older than a lot of them. :P
So. We are all transgender, we all have a very little niche in society, we are all unique human beings, a lot of us started out confused, a lot of us started out knowing that something wasn't quite right from first memories but we are all trans. Even though I claim non binary I find myself drawn to more and more MTF "binary". Meaning I am contemplating more and more HRT. I don't even really consider SRS yet and not really even thinking of SRS even. So what would that make me? I really don't care too much because I have always been way more female than male. Labels don't bother me much either because you name it and I have probably at one time or another been labeled it. ;)
I do believe the biggest similarity we have is that we are all humans and want to feel happy with who we are and comfortable in our own skin.
Quote from: Jess42 on September 25, 2014, 05:06:43 PM
What exactly is binary and non binary? I always assumed that binary was cis and tied to their gender physically and mentally and non binary had a disconnect between their inside and outside genders.
This is my understanding of things; no doubt if I've messed anything up, someone will correct me.
"Binary" refers to what's called the "Gender Binary" (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_binary") -- the idea that there are two genders, male and female, with a whole bunch of associated traits, and every human is either one or the other. Usually, there's also the assumption that it can't change.
"Cis" means that the gender one identifies as is the same as the one they were assigned at birth. This is what Western Society, at least, has always assumed and enforced for everyone.
"Binary trans" means that one identifies as the other gender from what they were assigned at birth. Note that "the other" implies there are only two choices. "Both", "neither", and "other" are excluded.
"Non binary" is anyone who can't honestly say that they definitely identify as male or definitely identify as female, such as androgynous, agender, people whose sense of their gender varies; I'm sure I've missed some. (
Edit: I missed genderqueer. FWIW, Wikipedia links non-binary to Genderqueer (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer"))
FWIW, we're generally talking about people whose
bodies are fairly clearly male or female. There are also "intersex" people -- to oversimplify, these are people whose bodies are in some sense neither clearly male nor clearly female.
Thanks Asche. I still don't know what I am. I doubt intersex even though I grew small boobs during puberty and an extremely small "thingy". I don't know I guess I'm just me. Non binary, binary trans since I feel and think way more female than male, oh well. I guess I'm just me. Whoever that may be or eventually become. I really don't know or even like to label myself anyway 'cause its always changing. But it does seem like two steps forward and half a step back. O well, one day I may figure it out. ???
Quote from: Jess42 on September 25, 2014, 06:17:15 PM
Thanks Asche. I still don't know what I am. I doubt intersex even though I grew small boobs during puberty and an extremely small "thingy". I don't know I guess I'm just me. Non binary, binary trans since I feel and think way more female than male, oh well. I guess I'm just me. Whoever that may be or eventually become. I really don't know or even like to label myself anyway 'cause its always changing. But it does seem like two steps forward and half a step back. O well, one day I may figure it out. ???
I'm not sure that what I am really has a label. I keep going back and forth between genderfluid and bigender, neither of them exactly fits. I also think what I am trying to be scares binary trans because, if I am a person that finds a way to be happy in a male body despite having basically a female personality, that then certain people might use it against them to prevent HRT and/or SRS being available to them...I don't want that to happen, I know some people need these, and I don't want things I say to be used by transphobic people as an obstacle towards someone else transitioning.
Quote from: Jess42 on September 25, 2014, 06:17:15 PM
I guess I'm just me. Whoever that may be or eventually become. I really don't know or even like to label myself anyway 'cause its always changing. But it does seem like two steps forward and half a step back. O well, one day I may figure it out. ???
That's pretty much how I seem to feel too, when all this is said and done.
I know that understanding the differences / similarities within us is part of being non binary, and deserves thought and discussion, but for now, I have no more interest in labels, differences or similarities. I just want to be part of Susan's place, period, and be equally supportive and interact with the whole board. I want to feel like family with the whole board, not just one forum. Maybe I'm crazy.?
Quote from: Ativan Prescribed on September 25, 2014, 10:40:33 AM
I agree. I've become aware that it is as strong as ever. Defensive reasoning to protect a singular world view.
Binary privilege exists to such an extent that there are non-binaries who accept it in their own thinking.
It has existed for so long that it is considered the normal, there are even those who aren't able to recognize it, and make excuses in defense of it.
Even in some who consider themselves to not be binary, they still accept it as the normal, defending it as if it is.
So when the going gets tough, accept it and go to the beach and explain it to the wind that is there as well.
Ativan
Ativan, I disagree.
There are non-binaries such as myself who still have the binary thinkings (not privileges) in my head, such as the female <-> androgynous <-> male line. On days, it is easier to explain to binary member in
their terms and language rather than resorting to a language that can confuse them further and where it can be easily misinterpreted as something else entirely. I view gender as being as vast as the universe but when it comes to speaking to my binary cis-friends, I will use a more simple language. Not in the attempt to be insulting to them but to make it
easier for them to understand as they only know that a line exists... then later, it will become apparent to them that there is much more than a simple line.
Until then, I ask so what?
If someone views gender as a line rather than a spectrum... so what? If as you say, there are non-binaries who carry binary privileges, so what?
You cannot change people and you certainly cannot encourage change by implying that binary privileges is alive within the non-binary community. Really, what do you expect that will do? It will only serve to divide a community. Now, if there were some truth in your words, I would be agreeing with you but as far as I know, from what I have witnessed on the forums and in PMs, the non-binaries have been nothing but accepting, open-minded and viewing gender as vast as the universe. Sure, there are non-binaries who are struggling, such as myself and others but that does not mean they should be punished and blamed for having binary privileges.
That is outrageous and very disrespectful.
What is most disturbing is that you will speak about non-binaries carrying binary privileges, yet you will not speak about your poor behavior on the forum and during PMs. You have had your PM privileges removed because you were disrespectful and abusing members of the forums.
You may believe you were right, that you were fiercely protecting the non-binary community but I assure you, you have done the exact opposite. I used to hold in you in such high regard as a wise, respectable individual... now, while I do agree with posts you make, this one I cannot because I now know that you are so rigid in your non-binary thinking that you will attack others on the forum, especially if they struggle to understand non-binaries or the thinking behind it.
You should welcome others with acceptance, even if they struggle to understand at first. That you do not and continue to insist there is binary privilege alive within the non-binary community... this illustrates your true thinking.
That you have non-binary privilege running through your veins.
Non-binaries are not better than anyone. You are not better than anyone else here, you are on equal grounds with everyone else. I would encourage you to please start treating everyone with the same respect, whether they are non-binary or binary.
That is the difference between you and many others here.
If you wish to discuss binary privileges among the non-binary community, I highly encourage you to make a new thread - just as dearest Dread_Faery made one for Binary Privileges. I do not desire such a topic in my thread which was originally created to point out the similarities in a
positive manner. Therefore, it is not welcome in my thread.
You may argue that it is a similarity between non-binary and binary members but it is not a
positive similarity that will bring a community closer.
Thank you,
Kind regards,
Jacey
Quote from: Mark3 on September 25, 2014, 11:55:36 PM
I know that understanding the differences / similarities within us is part of being non binary, and deserves thought and discussion, but for now, I have no more interest in labels, differences or similarities. I just want to be part of Susan's place, period, and be equally supportive and interact with the whole board. I want to feel like family with the whole board, not just one forum. Maybe I'm crazy.?
This 1000x
jacey, i am sorry for derailing your thread further, i just wanted to clear up something.
you might have misunderstood what ativan was actually talking about.
(though i agree that talking about differences when you're asking about similarities, does not contribute to the topic.)
what i read from ativan's post was not that some non-binaries carry binary privilege. what is meant is that many non-binaries are accepting a world view where binaries have some privileges, and try to adjust their living accordingly, without really stopping to question whether what really should be changed is the binary world view.
it is something that easily happens among minorities.
in my own country, there are two very different peoples with very different languages, who have lived side by side since way earlier than any historical records go. the norwegians have privilege, a whole lot of it, and it is commonly accepted not only among the norwegians, but also the saami.
it has to do with learning from the day one enters school, that norwegian is the language you're supposed to speak, those who don't understand norwegian are less intelligent, those who are less intelligent don't know what's best for them. etc. etc.
this way of thinking, where the majority's privilege is accepted as the natural state, has lead to some very worrisome things happening almost without anyone ever asking why.
the local school has both norwegian and saami classes. the saami children here have a legal right to learn every subject in their own mother tongue, and should in principle have the exact same rights as the norwegian children. half of the subjects are still taught in norwegian though, because there aren't enough teachers who speak saami, and nobody goes the extra length to recruit anyone either.
many parents of saami children have poor reading and writing skills in saami because they were never allowed to learn their own language in school themselves. so when they notice that their children aren't learning as much as they had expected in the saami class, they transfer them to the norwegian class. for norwegian children who have problems learning have a right to supplement classes, while saami children never get that. their lower than average learning curve is explained by how saami is such a difficult language (science says it's much easier than norwegian though), and they just need more time.
none of our saami politicians have ever spoken up, demanding equal rights to learning from good teachers. they seem rather happy with status quo, and praise the norwegian government for having given these tiny rights to at least learn one's own language in school. even if the teachers don't have the competence to teach the language well.
the maority's privilege is too commonly accepted among the minority. it is almost never questioned.
it wouldn't be weird if the same thing happened in the trans community.
i still hear that you need srs just so the majority will be able to accept you as your chosen gender.
i only rarely hear people saying that the majority is completely wrong about what is an acceptable body for a person of this or that gender.
many non-binary people still choose to present as either binary gender, because it's easier.
and back on topic, i still mean that the biggest similarity is that we are all humans.
maybe i should add that most of us are also perfectly sane, regardless of gender, physiology, or internal body map.
the less sane individuals exist in all groups, and have equal worth too. they're also humans.
Please do not apologize, Taka. Thank you for clearing up the misunderstanding, it is very helpful and I can look at Ativan's post in a different light.
I am guilty of presenting as binary because it is easier, I present as a feminine male to the public even though my gender is non-existent. I had no choice but to pursue a binary transition in order to remove my female parts since I was denied the option as a biological female. I also have to continue binary transition as I know that no reputable surgeon in my area will remove my female genitals (FGM is illegal) to become sexless outside of transitioning, so binary transition is the only option I have where I can safely modify the surgery I desire to suit my needs.
I have grown up with the binary thinking ingrained into my mind, unfortunately, this binary thinking had prompted me to believe I must be a man since I disliked being a woman so much. After being on testosterone for four years and a relationship break-up forced me to question my identity, I came to realize I don't identify with either gender at all. Since identifying as non-binary, slowly and surely with time, this thinking will be undone. However, I am now stuck with a voice that sounds like a man rather than gender-neutral and excess body hair which will need laser hair removal. I wish I could have discovered I was non-binary earlier, then I would have been able to go on a low dose of T and stop before my voice got too deep but I cannot as the past has been done, it cannot be rewritten. I have to live with the consequences of my actions and do my best to live, I have to keep moving forward.
I cannot remember a time, in history, where the binary did not exist or was not enforced onto others. But over time, it has slowly been changing with the existence of transgender, intersex and gender-variant individuals growing and I am sure there will be a place for non-binary where they are accepted into society, maybe not tomorrow but it will be soon - there has been an increasing amount of internet articles expressing the awareness of those who identify as non-binary, this is a good and will continue to help our cause in a positive way.
I believe one day we can co-exist together as one in society. That is my dream. It may be a foolish dream that will burn in flames but I will keep dreaming, supporting the community and raising awareness anyway.
On the flip side, the realist in me thinks, yes, we may co-exist, we may get certain rights given but ultimately, we will never be true equals to the binary population, much like the outcome of your story. I feel this quote rings quite true to the story you have written, Taka, about the Norwegian and Sammi people... in fact, it could ring true about life in general.
"There are only two kinds of people in this world; those who steal and those who are stolen from."
whether we can gain equality or not should never stop our fight to reach that point in history.
the kyriarchy seems to be a very real thing in all societies, and even the weakest will find someone weaker to oppress.
it seems, now that i read things again, that our most common trait is imperfection.
if only we were all perfect, we would never have any misunderstandings. we would all be able to express ourselves clearly, and read the actual meaning from each other's words... i misunderstand and am misunderstood just as often as anyone else.
but admitting that we are indeed not perfect, also allows us to see past all our differences, to seek common ground, to always try to learn and understand more about the world and each other.
the lgbt community in sweden have taken an interesting approach, where they criticize the socially construed norms to have them changed, rather than just seek tolerance. i can tolerate the most hateful person's existence (he has a right to exist after all), but wouldn't it be much better if my world just had a natural place for that person too? what i judge as hateful based on norms i don't realize i'm living, could very well be a potential best friend.
I am going to try and bring something to your thread. But to find the similarities, one needs to define each version of what we call Gender Dyshoria :)
So here goes for my view of it and in now way will it be universal. But it will help my explanation and hopefully will bring something to add to the discussion :)
First, lets isolate several concept.
A) Born Body Gender
B) Born Mind Gender
C) Sexual Preference
D) Effect of life/society/stress/depression/etc on Mind Gender.
E) Perception of society
Now, only taking born "Body and Mind" gender(points A and B), and ignoring points C,D and E, here are my views on this. Feel free to add/correct this as I am only an expert on Binary Dysphoria and the rest is accumulated knowledge and I won't pretend otherwise :)
m | f
This is how the world views Genders, there are 2 genders with nothing in between. To it/them, Both the body and mind are inseparable and stand on one end of the spectrum.
m---------------------------------f
Now taking Binary Gender Dysphoria into account, this would be my gender scale (using mine for this exercise).
B---------------------------------M
Now again taking my binary gender dysphoria it would look like this, body on one end of the scale, mind on the other. The journey I took brought my body in line with my mind on the scale, but it went through a "Crossdresser/Androgenous type phase where my body did not match the male perception that society had. This period for binaries is extremely difficult and painful, as we go from being accepted by society to being shunned. But at the same time, it will bring a similarity to non binary journeys in what society percieves nonetheless. Our pain only stops once our Journey is over and our body stands in a confortable zone. My current scale taking my srs in 2 months in account is something like this and my mind is happy with this and no longer seeks any more changes, just my srs. I am now in a comfortable zone and no longer need surgery past my srs.
-------------------------------B--M
m---------------------------------f
m--m--m--m--m--m---m--m--m--m------
-----b--b--b--b--b--b---b--b------b
For a Non binary Gender Dysphoria, the situation is much more complexe, as both the mind and the body's mapping stand all over the scale and thus is not as easy to define as binary gender dysphoria. (scales up there are for imaging the concept only and must not be taken literaly). The None Binary Journey will be similar here to a Binary journey, in that it will be as painful to leave the "Sociably comfortable zone" to meet one's mind mapping, but this is where I suspect the similarities end, as it is not as easy to meet one's mind mapping and society is not making it easy to solve this. It is starting to accept a binary view of Gender Dysphoria, but in no way is our fight(both Binary and None Binary) for acceptance is over for any of us.
-----------------b----------------m
Also just for adding to the discussion, people who are Androgenous, are slightly different. The born body does not stand at one end of the spectrum. They journey can be simple or very complex, as the scale here can be accompanied by a gender dysphoria scale (either binary or none binary), therefore complicating their journeys as well.
Then add points c,d and e, and you get something so difficult that a lot of us get out of it with war wounds as a souvenir. THAT is similar for everyone, this fight we all live together so that we can all get the treatment we need.
I am at the start of fighting my GD, internally I have always thought of myself as more androgynous than anything.
What I think the Binary folks and the Non-binaries have in common is the Dysphoria. That we have different internal ideals and mappings and chemistries to appease to beat the GD is irrelevant.
As NB/MTA I might have the option of achieving what I need with out a full social transition, but I would want to be opening in the middle if it were a real choice. But it isn't yet is it? Not a safe to walk down the street, stay employed and keep food on the table for the family choice. Not yet. But it is for me necessary to physically change to see myself in the mirror, I will have to take low dose HRT indefinitely or the screaming of the GD will grind me to dust and kill me, I can wear clothes and jewelry that are neutral enough for me and acceptable enough for those around me that are not ready. And socially my Angelic wife knows and accepts me, in time me closest friends will know or leave me, my family might one day know, my sister at least. But to so many others how can I be something that doesn't have a name for them?
What we have in common:
The Darn Mirror - I think most of have looked in the mirror and not seen ourselves, we all hope to one day look in it and see ourselves, or now do. (I am starting to thank the gods!)
Gender Dysphoria - It may be different flavours, our precise paths might be different, but it is a deadly enemy to us all. It is Terror and Agony and Isolation and Death.
Society doesn't get it - All the negativity and horrid words and bad ideas from so many people that think their opinion is worth anything, who don't even know what GD is. That Trans is the cure, and GD the problem.
Denial of self - Before confronting GD we have all tried to be what Cis-Society told us we should be, what they told us would make us happy. It did not work. For me 18 years ago and again 10 years ago I knew something was different in me, but BINARY comments made me lock my soul in a prison and not address my GD. (So please try and respect the NB/A people and not invalidate their endpoints and paths, ignorant binary comments cost me 18 years of GD-Hell!)
Endurance and Bloodymindedness - To survive and do whatever we must to fix whatever elements of our bodies that we can, change our hormones, and seek whatever allies we can to stand by us. We seek to change and fix ourselves because we must. We have to tear ourselves apart to reforge ourselves again, our exact goals differ, but no Cis-person could ever truly understand.
Loss and fear of loss - Fear of everything that could go wrong. You hear stories where some people find good luck and good fortune, and others where they do not.
---
And Envy.
The last one is the ugliest one. Some envy those without GD. Some envy those that are born with the bodies they wish they had. Some envy that a non-binary-trans person can achieve an androgynous/neutral passing as birth gender and avoid certain hardships. Some envy that a binary-trans person has a socially accepted endpoint, that once reached allows them to openly be themselves and to have a letter to circle on official forms. And envy makes us trigger each other and invalidate each other.
Lets lose this the last one.
We all are fighting our unique dysphoria, on our unique paths, with what luck and fortune, good or bad, we each have.
I am MTA because that is what I MUST be. Others are MTF/FTM because that is what they MUST be. - And this IS a similarity, not a difference. The need for a particular personal endpoint, for peace, and for balance.
- Jaded (And now I must yoga till I hurt) Jade
(edit: replaced a word.)
Jaded J
Really relate to your post. My journey seems to have been quite similar. Your perspectives on similarities and differences align with mine
Safe travels
Aisla
Agree with Jade and Aisla.
You might add frustration to the list.
We all know I live genderqueer socially. Muted, understated, but its there to be read.
Blessings.
Satinjoy
Yes, well stated Jade. +1
Quote from: Jaded Jade on September 30, 2014, 10:49:21 PM
What we have in common:
The Darn Mirror - I think most of have looked in the mirror and not seen ourselves, we all hope to one day look in it and see ourselves, or now do.
The entire commentary is rather excellent but this in particular struck me as I look in the mirror and see a woman's body with my dad's head on it. I've had two FFS procedures to change that, but alas there is my dearly departed Pop looking back at me. Kriky that is beyond frustrating because I only just want to be me.
OK so I'm getting my butt kicked with dysphoria right now. Don't happen often but right now it is taking my breath away. I wish it literally would.
Similarities? Do you really want to know? It is ugly. It is not nice. It is sad. But do you really want to know? I can tell you but I don't want to hurt anyone by what I'm feeling right now but if you want the ugly freakin' truth. Right now I can tell you. Right now I can show everyone the darkness. If anyone wants to know. I will answer because I am there. I am low. I am dark. I think we all feel this way so all non binarys and binarys, let me know if you want to know the freakn' truth. Ho I feel right now is the total truth so Jess42 is down. This is the similarities. The question is do you really want to know? Because right now I am in Hell.
I am still at the beginning of my path with fixing my GD, the non-binary in the face of all the binary voices sometimes makes me doubt. As I am making very real steps now, about to get a GT appointment, talking to the godsend LGBT organization at work, my wife and a key friend or two I need to be sure.
I am MTA, not MTF, high, low, or medium E, my NB/Androgyne core doesn't change, that is my endpoint, the low dose HRT that I know I will need indefinitely might swing me too far to the femme side, only time will tell. (But many 4,5,8,+year MTA's say MTA balance is possible...)
I have let the AA and E wear off. I needed to flip the dysphoria back on, to feel it again, to know that the cure I have tasted for acouple months is true.
So all binaries listen up.
TRIGGER WARNING.
~30 hours, the stress is back to 110%, as it was before.
~36 hours, the creeping doom of the impending return of the paranoia starts up.
~37 hours, stress headache.
~38 hours, the thought that it would be easier to be dead started to resurface. (I am fine, the thoughts have no power over me, I have plenty to live for! But it is back.)
All this is as it was for me for over twenty years. It went away in days when I first tried E, it comes back when I don't have it.
But this time some of the accumulated minor physical changes let me look in the mirror and see myself. I still want to lose 30 pounds. But for 25 years I have not seen myself in the mirror, until these last couple months. But now I do, thanks to targeted muscle building exercises and AA&E. So some more of the same will be nice, and some laser. And let my hair grow longer.
Our endpoints might not be the same, but the hell of dysphoria, the enmity of the mirror when our bodies and minds are not in sync, and the transformative powers of our similar cures are the same.
So I seek to stay passing male? So what. It is not inconsistent with non-binary, though some openly present NB, I am aiming for andro-male, those who have wisdom and perception will see the truth. Without the clothes, without presentation, there is no denying that I am started on the path of MTA.
Society will catch up in 50 years, I have no intention of waiting for it to do so to be whole, or picking a fight with a million ignorant people in the meantime.
So outside the house I choose my shirts wisely, it does not change the reality of who and what I am.
- Jaded (You might want to change your letter on your drivers license, I want a third option, is this really a difference? Or a similarity?) Jade
JJ
Finding the edge, looking in the shadow for the dysphoria which is always there. Provided I have low dose hrt then I walk in the light. Definitely m2me which is much like your MTA.
But if I ease back on the E or the Spiro the dysphoria snaps back. It is a strange thing being trans*, many incarnations and each one of us trying to find that sweet spot, that point of equilibrium where you can meet your self. Being me and being authentic is the gift that low dose hrt provides. Without it life would be intolerable
Be well
Aisla
hrt working against dysphoria might have more to do with brain structure than anything else. hormones can be toxic if you get too much of them, and anxiety or depression are symptoms of poisoning. or deficiency, vitamin d (it's a hormone) deficiency causes a whole lot of depression that would have been avoided if people just ate more fish in winter.
but those who naturally have the right hormone levels can also benefit from treatment for a limited time, to change some features or whatever. not all can be changed with surgeries after all.
Quote from: Jess42 on October 02, 2014, 05:34:56 PM
OK so I'm getting my butt kicked with dysphoria right now. Don't happen often but right now it is taking my breath away. I wish it literally would.
Similarities? Do you really want to know? It is ugly. It is not nice. It is sad. But do you really want to know? I can tell you but I don't want to hurt anyone by what I'm feeling right now but if you want the ugly freakin' truth. Right now I can tell you. Right now I can show everyone the darkness. If anyone wants to know. I will answer because I am there. I am low. I am dark. I think we all feel this way so all non binarys and binarys, let me know if you want to know the freakn' truth. Ho I feel right now is the total truth so Jess42 is down. This is the similarities. The question is do you really want to know? Because right now I am in Hell.
i like dark...
used to reject the light, but after some interesting happenings during winter, and a way too hot and bright summer, i ended up thinking maybe the light is ok too. best thing is balance after all.
but i might have forgotten that seriously bad dysphoria. wonder when it will come back again. not waiting for it to seek out treatment in some form, but... it's an odd feeling to not be haunted.