Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I really hope that the idea that some of us have it easier than others does not stir angry emotions. I know that in labeling this thread as I did that that risk is present. But, my intention is just that we find ways to generate light without much heat.

I will tell everyone upfront that the entire idea is deeply felt by myself. I am defensive about being able to blend and not having a desire to be a transsexual anything. I live a womanly life. I feel for those who struggle and do recall my own trepidation about how my life would look before I began transition. I know no one who cares not a whit what other people think of them.

I am aware that not everyone who makes this journey is fortunate enough, even with surgeries, to reach that blending point. So, de facto, there IS a passing privilege. Some of us are privileged to be able to walk through our lives being seen as who we deeply know we are. Others do not reach that point and often have to struggle very hard to maintain their lives and esteem. 

IMO, there is no special grace that attaches to either group. No one is better or worse due to the way they look or the way they are looked on. People are human and that alone makes them worthy of my care and respect. Goddess, I hope this diffuses enough anger that we can discuss this without flames.

My question then is this: for those of us who seem to pass, how much guilt do we, individually, feel?

Do you know where that comes from? Is there an aspect of this guilt that is somehow akin to the guilt felt by those who survived the concentration camps at the end of WWII. How do we learn to live with that guilt, or even dispel it? Are we all defensive about it, or am I an anomaly in admitting that sometimes the company of other TSes causes me discomfort due to my wishing to maintain my status as a woman and fearing that they will somehow out me, just by the proximity?

I do not go to conventions. However, I do have some experience, even today, of being among one or two TSes who I do not feel blend well, from time to time, in public. So far, I have not been outted by being in their company. I also do NOT live in Omaha or Kokomo, so my mileage may be true only in a large east coast city with a fairly sizeable trans population.

Anyhow, I am working on the basis that: I cannot get ill enough to provide healing to someone else.

I would like to see other thoughts in this regard, even a discussion of how guilt over blending has played out in the lives of other women and men.

For my part, I have no problem with those who do not feel they blend well to comment about me and my situation. Afterall, this is a board and what you may write about me or my thoughts does not amount to throwing a cuppa hot coffee in my face.  :icon_yikes:

I only hope we can keep the discussion civil and attempt to be compassionate to everyone and her or his pov.

Thanks,

Nichole

OMFG! I haven't read the post yet but the title sounds like a time bomb!

tick...tick..tick...


Is that avatar Sharon Stone? I have had three people tell me I look like Sharon Stone. ReallY!

Posted on: August 11, 2007, 11:46:51 AM

---

Ok nice thoughts actually, not as nuclear at all as the title might suggest.

Guilt is one of the most worthless of all emotions, only eclipsed by shame perhaps. There is no space in my mind for guilt especially when it comes to the so-called passing privilege as I have worked hard to achieve being the Sharon Stone clone that I am (LOL I really have to laugh as I am more than ten years older than Stone)

OTOH if you look back at some of my past posts, you will see that this was not always the case. When I see a poorly passing transwoman which is often, I do feel empathy for them. I don't feel guilt however or superiority, well, maybe in my weaker moments, I do.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 11, 2007, 11:46:51 AM
OMFG! I haven't read the post yet but the title sounds like a time bomb!

tick...tick..tick...


Is that avatar Sharon Stone? I have had three people tell me I look like Sharon Stone. ReallY!

If you have read it now, Melissa, you prolly see I was aware of that.

I just find that rather than ever recalling reading a discussion on a trans BB about this, I think I have seen a lot of flames and resentment and guilt simply released without anyone ever bothering to look at what has moved them.

Like I said: I am hoping that flames do not develop. I am too new here to want to throw bombs.

But, sometimes I do think that we tend to avoid the really very important things about our lives and our interactions with others for the sake of not stirring any negative feelings.

I am thinking that this topic gives me lotsa negative feelings, but where better to discuss it than among others like me where we can feel safe in not having to have some physical confrontation? Maybe if I can just discuss my own guilt, that will somehow help me resolve or adjust it where I do not feel an immediate response to someone else that comes from my own negative feeling rather than from anything they may have written. *shrug* 

I am not trying to stir flames, but am very much interested in exploring my own dark side and things I do feel badly about.

Hey Nichole, I was just kidding, read my follow-up.

---Nicole (real name)

BTW I am the champ for posting antagonistic topics. The women here are, for the most part, very respectful.

======================================================================
So, Nichole, what is the root cause for your angst?

QuoteMy question then is this: for those of us who seem to pass, how much guilt do we, individually, feel?

how much guilt do i feel?

none, i deserve it  >:D

Quote from: Nichole W. on August 11, 2007, 12:10:03 PM
Being human, I imagine.  ;)

Oh that's right, grasshopper.

You mean you haven't reach Nirvana yet? Well, to some, I may sound like a hypocrite because I had this really profound spiritual awakening that coincided with going to Thailand and getting BA and SRS.

I am a recovering Catholic and a born again Buddhist...funny when I finally starting grasping Buddhism, I discovered it was very similar to what I thought all along. When we focus on passing, we a re focusing on probably one of the most superficial concepts ever thrust upon any group of people. It has become an Albatross for most of us, the whole concept needs to be shredded IMO and that is coming from someone in the 99th percentile (Voice discounted) Then when we talk about guilt over "passing priveilege"

My newly acquired mindfulness won't allow me to get inside that concept. I will await other's insights.


---Nicole (Leave the H off for hellraiser and Sharon Stone clone LOL)

Quote from: Katia on August 11, 2007, 12:32:58 PM

QuoteMy question then is this: for those of us who seem to pass, how much guilt do we, individually, feel?

how much guilt do i feel?

none, i deserve it  >:D

Why would you find that answer evil or twisted, Katia?

I think it is a very healthy answer, very healthy for us all from the oldest stealthy woman to the beginner-yet-to-be.

To live and be a woman, an MTF-TS needs to understand that she is. A woman. There need be no shame in achieving a goal I have striven for. Why would you, me, or anyone else be ashamed? Or guilty? Guilty of what? Would our shame/guilt allow even one of the many who have not yet reached that goal to achieve it?

I think (as a grasshopper :-* ) that the answer is there is only guilt if I view my own life from a perspective that it is shameful to achieve what others have not achieved.

Sort of like saying that the total number of humans that will ever exist on this earth is 10 billion and that all of them must wait to be born until all can be born simultaneously.

Not everyone takes the same journey through transition. Some must travel on a path that requires a person with craggy features and over six feet tall and who will weigh 200 lbs even if they should be rail-thin. So, there are TSes like that. 

I have to travel transition in a different physical realm. Yet, my resistance to growing to be a match to who I am made sure that I took a long time to align with myself. Therefore, I am older now than some who have been successfully post op for twenty years.

Katia, you deserve credit for aligning yourself to what was possible for you and then living into that goal. Yes, you do deserve it. And if you continue to align yourself you will get the more you deserve. :)

Does that mean that someone who has not yet achieved her goal is undeserving? Of course not. The question asked there is the wrong question because it tries to differentiate us into deserving and not. That question guarantees that if you or I do not feel guilty now, that we have or that others will.

The woman who has not yet achieved her womanhood has not achieved it because she has not yet negotiated her journey. And, more importantly she has not yet aligned herself to the basic well-being that Universe provides us all (in her case, the basic femaleness that inhabits her core.)

There is no fault there. No shame or guilt required from, or for, any of us.

The trick for any of us (MTFs,) if we are truly women in our souls, is to change from who we are not to being women.

All that we require is alignment with who we truly are. When we meet that alignment we will each, individually, reach our goal. In alignment we become she who cannot be seen otherwise than as who she is.

Nichole

(This post should be as valid for FTMs as for MTFs. I am acquainted with the latter more than the former. And my guilt mentioned in my original post was/is a former feeling, not current.)

Hi Nichole,

    From my perspective, it seems you empathize with those who are having more difficulty achieving what you have.  I think your empathy is a very positive trait and that by sharing it here with others, you are setting a really good example.
    I understand that empathy in itself does no good in helping others, but it is very important to understand or feel what others feel. I think it makes us all better people.

(off topic)
    I would like to believe that, having done your best at avoiding flames, you will not see any.  However, if you do have responses that make you feel uncomfortable, please remember that you can lock your own thread until you think things (people) have calmed down. I believe there is a Lock button at the bottom or top of each thread.
    Also, if you think it will help, feel free to ask your responders to please be polite.
   These tips are just meant to help you in the event your fear of tempers rising comes true.


Peace,

Rebis

I dont think passing is a privledge, I think (personally) that passing has to be earned by hard work and committment.

I know of many people who transition with a survival mentality, i.e because they have gender issues, they fix their own problems but are frightened and indeed paranoid to integrate into society, fully and totally. The question remains if it is their mentality that leads to this or societies lack of acceptance (and understanding) of us.

I never set out to transition to remain a transsexual, that to me was a complete failure. If I had become a Female version of my former self then again I would have failed in my aims in transition, to become a woman in everyones eyes.

It took me a complete change of mindset, to achieve this goal as for a long time in pressure situations I relied on my past experiences (unfortunately that of a guy) to work my way out of them, women I know know approach the same situations differently and react differently.

I also think guilt is a difficult word to come to terms with, I feel no guilt that I have made my life a success, because I worked hard to get here and did everything I possibly could to make that so. What I feel for people less fortunate than me is both compassion and extreme respect. Not everyone will have the opportunities I had, not everyone will pass and integrate into society like I have been able to (and some people wont want to).

Peace of mind, happinness  and an end to the perpetual torment are the main reasons why most people will transition, there is no guilt in that.

Buffy

being able to pass gives me no guilt whatsoever, my life, my passing as me. stuff anyone else. i owe the world nothing.

R :police:

There is a very sick troll attacking the forum, girls.

Be sure to flag offensive posts. This very troubled guy has already posted under two different IDs, texas->-bleeped-<- and alien.

He will probably be back until his IP is blocked.

Be sure and flag (report) posts promptly. The mods removed his posts immediately.

Kudos to them.

Do prettier/more handsome people feel guilty?

Do smarter people feel guilty?

Do richer people feel guilty?

Do YOU feel guilty for having the luck live in America vs. Sudan?

Do you feel guilty for having enough food to worry about obesity/diabetes/clothing?

Yes, we can/should have compassion for others, but life is the draw of the lot. If you feel guilty, assuage it by doing something...

"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful"... BAAAHHH.. I hate you (those that relish their passing and like to make a point about it) BECAUSE you are conceited, vain, and a showoff.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 12, 2007, 10:00:05 AM
There is a very sick troll attacking the forum, girls.

Be sure to flag offensive posts. This very troubled guy has already posted under two different IDs, texas->-bleeped-<- and alien.

He will probably be back until his IP is blocked.

Be sure and flag (report) posts promptly. The mods removed his posts immediately.

Kudos to them.

The offending sick f*** has been banned twice this am.

Most people do not understand that "Passing Privilege" is not a term invented for transsexuals.  It originally applied in reference to Jewish people who could "pass" as Gentiles.  More recently it was adapted to Blacks who could pass as White.  Then to Gays who could pass as Straight.

Passing Privilege seems to have several recurrent characteristics.  One is that the passing person has trouble fitting into either the community of origin or target.  The passing person must purpetually live in fear of discovery.  And the non-passing community resents those who pass, often characterising them as traitors.  Some become "stealth" and never return to their community of origin.  Others try to live in both worlds with varying success.  A small minority of the passing renouce their privilege and "come out" to be leaders in the minority community in its resistence against the majority culture.

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 12, 2007, 10:26:38 AM

"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful"... BAAAHHH.. I hate you (those that relish their passing and like to make a point about it) BECAUSE you are conceited, vain, and a showoff.

Every "passing" thread is going to give the "Oh woe is me, I pass better than everyone else" trippers the opportunity to once again remind us how well they pass.

Did I tell you today how flawlessly I pass naked in the women's locker room?  >:D >:D >:D >:D >:D

So far most of the people posting to this thread either have "passing privilege" or think they have it, which to me is the same as having it. Being a person who has not been granted passing privilege, I thought I might add my two cents worth.

Here I am about six months into living full time with the woman who would end up becoming my wife.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Felizabeth-alive.com%2FP1010166.JPG&hash=ce4107f25251744641a6cd1abfd85108c6bb0f0b)

It is pretty apparent I was not gifted with the "passing privilege". It is also probably apparent that I am not that upset about it.  We all have our gifts, our advantages and disadvantages. I see no reason that anyone who can pass should feel any kind of guilt whatsoever. It's your advantage, your gift. What you do with that gift is up to you. Many people waste the gifts they have, by not utilizing their full potential. Passing is not an accident. Those who pass have usually put quite a bit of effort, time and money into it. And even if they have not, it does not matter. Some people are smart, others are gifted musicians. Some people can sing, others can't carry a tune in a bucket.

Am I jealous at times? You bet. I would love to be able to pass flawlessly. But I also recognize that I have not put the time, effort and money that is required. If you are feeling guilty about how you look, let it go. You don't owe me or any other transsexual anything. You owe yourself happiness, whatever it takes to get that. If that means living in stealth, so be it. It's all about finding contentment. A place one feels happy about how their life is going. Besides, it nice having you girls around. It gives me pics to show skeptics what can be done. That this is not a frivolous endeavor.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Felizabeth-alive.com%2FCURTSEY.GIF&hash=b175285012bb4c36db884979838e2e5eab6b20cf)

Love always,
Elizabeth

QuoteMost people do not understand that "Passing Privilege" is not a term invented for transsexuals.  It originally applied in reference to Jewish people who could "pass" as Gentiles.  More recently it was adapted to Blacks who could pass as White.  Then to Gays who could pass as Straight.

Yes, and any of us who were born with male bodies, or if we're white (or pass as such), have privilege granted us by society, regardless of whether or not we want that privilege. I'm Jewish, however pass as white in various situations. I'm transgender, however pass or am perceived as male in various situations. One needs to make conscious effort to renounce our privilege.

Zythyra

Better to pass as the warm beautiful human being that you are than anything else, Elizabeth.

Those who value passing as the end-all and be-all are creating their own personal hells and BAD karma but all are entitled to choosing their own paths.

I finally found someone who loves me unconditionally!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi123.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo318%2Fmelissa90299%2FIMAG0072.jpg&hash=2652ea0ba1f650bae9e0d2bc79c918ace975f5c8)

And she is soooooooo cute and never gives me any guff!

QuoteDid I tell you today how flawlessly I pass naked in the women's locker room? 

No Melissa, you hadn't mentioned that yet. In this thread anyway. >:D

Seriously though, congratulations, and mazel tov!

QuoteIt is pretty apparent I was not gifted with the "passing privilege". It is also probably apparent that I am not that upset about it.  We all have our gifts,

And Elizabeth, you have one of the greatest gifts of all, the knowledge of who you are and living your life as who you are without apology!

Zythyra

None.  No guilt.  I quit feeling guilty about everything in my life years ago. 

Chin up!

Cindi

Quoteyes, but can you pass as protestant?

No, best I can manage is to pass as a Unitarian  ;D ;D

Z

Hi Nicole,

My apologies if my initial response was a tad flippant, but it was a general reaction to the many other posts from those who are more passable and their supposed burden of being so pretty. It stemmed from my days of being an ugly guy. I never quite made the cut of being handsome, so I have a unfair chip against the bold and the beautiful.

A more thoughtful response to your query would be that you should try and abolish the guilt you have. It is needless, though can be constructive if it propels to empathy. Guilt would be a feeling of having done wrong; being prettier/passable is not a crime. Being stronger, richer, born American are also not crimes, it's how you treat other people who don't have the same luxury that would cause the guilt.

Being humble and considerate is one way to live life, being arrogant and self-centered is another; neither are right or wrong. Just find where on the scale you feel comfortable and the guilt should vanish.

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 12, 2007, 11:59:42 AM

It is pretty apparent I was not gifted with the "passing privilege". It is also probably apparent that I am not that upset about it.  We all have our gifts, our advantages and disadvantages. I see no reason that anyone who can pass should feel any kind of guilt whatsoever. It's your advantage, your gift. What you do with that gift is up to you. Many people waste the gifts they have, by not utilizing their full potential. Passing is not an accident. Those who pass have usually put quite a bit of effort, time and money into it. And even if they have not, it does not matter. Some people are smart, others are gifted musicians. Some people can sing, others can't carry a tune in a bucket.

Am I jealous at times? You bet. I would love to be able to pass flawlessly. But I also recognize that I have not put the time, effort and money that is required. If you are feeling guilty about how you look, let it go. You don't owe me or any other transsexual anything. You owe yourself happiness, whatever it takes to get that. If that means living in stealth, so be it. It's all about finding contentment. A place one feels happy about how their life is going. Besides, it nice having you girls around. It gives me pics to show skeptics what can be done. That this is not a frivolous endeavor.

A very intelligent post, Elizabeth. Thanks.

Your view is refreshing to me. It points toward a couple of things that I think women often fail to recall, sometimes to even know.

This is definitely not a frivolous endeavor. That needs to be recognized by all who decide that they are TS. Looking good makes no one a woman. Looking bad does not make one not a woman. The core is a matter of soul/energy, etc. However it might turn out, that seems to me to be the first thing any transitioner needs to get into her head, really deeply into her head.

Lotsa women look good in their twenties, thirties, forties and older. Yet, if the look is all she has to live for, what happens if she outlives her looks? Can she age gracefully successfully? With the aplomb and grace of a Katherine Hepburn, or Maya Angelou?

And if she is not good looking, not a slim and willowy beauty: can she survive as female in spite of that? Bea Arthur has. Judy Dench has. Millions of women have.

No, guilt should not enter into it. Nor should pride. What is needed is to learn to align oneself.

QuoteMany people waste the gifts they have, by not utilizing their full potential.

Exactly so. To do that does require work: it requires knowing who I am, and living my life to be who I am: regardless my looks, or lack of them. 

Nichole

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 12, 2007, 12:11:41 PM
Better to pass as the warm beautiful human being that you are than anything else, Elizabeth.

Those who value passing as the end-all and be-all are creating their own personal hells and BAD karma but all are entitled to choosing their own paths.

I finally found someone who loves me unconditionally!

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi123.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fo318%2Fmelissa90299%2FIMAG0072.jpg&hash=2652ea0ba1f650bae9e0d2bc79c918ace975f5c8)

And she is soooooooo cute and never gives me any guff!

Beautiful pic, Melissa. The best you have shown us. You look so happy!

Hi Nichole;

I think I've been really fortunate with this passing issue.  I have never encountered any significant challenges concerning my passability.  My worst memories of being ridiculed in public can be sumarized to only two incidents, both of which I experienced many years ago and when I wasn't still fulltime. 

The very few times I've been read afterwards have ALWAYS been related to my voice and NOT to my physical appearance.  Am I privileged?  honestly I think I am.  I can go to the supermarket without any makeup on, old shorts or jeans, a bad hair day, and no one will turn to take a second look at me.  I could open the door for any postman, UPS or cable guy right after waking up and there is absolutely no way they will read me unless I do something stupid with my voice. There have been a few times when GG's have asked me to hook their bra's on while in the ladie's room.  Apparently they were changing their bra's or something.  I'm sure that they wouldn't have asked me that if they had thought I looked like a "guy".

The entire experience with passability has been somewhat easy for me.  I don't usually talk about "passing" on these boards (unless the subject is brought up like right now) not because I feel guilty but because it is NOT an issue I have to deal with anymore.  I am afraid that if I were to talk  about how flawlessly I pass (like I am doing now, LOL  ;D) on every thread, I'd come across as someone vain, methinks.

Do I feel guilty?  Absolutely not.  Like Katia said, I deserve it.  Having lived a very unhappy, painful existence for many years, I don't think that anyone here should be under any obligation to anyone (especially when issues of this nature arise).  I don't owe anything to anybody here (or in the TG community) and I am sure that you don't either, so there's NO reason to feel guilty about issues such as living in stealth or passing :)  My two cents.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Rommie on August 13, 2007, 05:01:40 AM

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 12, 2007, 11:59:42 AM. . . If you are feeling guilty about how you look, let it go. You don't owe me or any other transsexual anything. You owe yourself happiness, whatever it takes to get that. If that means living in stealth, so be it. It's all about finding contentment. A place one feels happy about how their life is going. Besides, it nice having you girls around. It gives me pics to show skeptics what can be done. That this is not a frivolous endeavor.

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Felizabeth-alive.com%2FCURTSEY.GIF&hash=b175285012bb4c36db884979838e2e5eab6b20cf)

Love always,
Elizabeth

Hey Elizabeth,

I remember that image. ;)  She served me well on CD-F. :D

Thank you for the words and understanding in the paragraph I quoted.  You are so amazing and always have been.

In my post in this thread I spoke of things that don't speak for women who, for whatever reason, don't blend in as well as some of us do now, but what you said is so HUGE.

I'll do my best to remember your words and I will always pray that my heart will be as big and beautiful as yours.

If memory serves me, you posted it to me on one of my darkest days. To you I owe much.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Tink? vain? never! :P

R :police:

Quote from: Rachael on August 13, 2007, 06:28:30 AM
Tink? vain? never! :P

R :police:

If you have it, show it off, right?  ;) ;D

tink :icon_chick:

Thanks everyone who has posted so far. I know, it might have turned into a volatile topic, but seems like we have all done well with it. At least so far.  :)

I do think there is a "passing privilege" that some of us enjoy, either through surgeries or natural growth and hereditary chance. Really now, is there not some privilege that accrues from being able to walk and go where you want with no one ever seeming to challenge your right to be there? While at the same time and the reverse conditions: unaffordable or ineffective surgeries, natural lack of growth and hereditary chance, there are those TSes who cannot do those things?

It isn't that I am saying that heredity, hard work and a large positive cash/asset balance is anyone's fault at all. Nor should anyone not use their advantages to reach the highest level of desire fulfillment and contentment she can reach. Thus, no guilt. But also no credit or just deserts to the fortunate. A lot of us owe what has occurred to us to chance and being in the right or wrong place at the right or wrong time.

I think Elizabeth made an excellent post about that, and like Rommie said, Elizabeth is a shining light in that way. She is, absolutely, making the best attempt she can to reach that level of ultimate(?) contentment while maintaining her sense that she is content enough in this moment. Wow, what a great testament to the remarkability of anyone!

As Tink pointed out some of us have had few if any problems "passing" at any point along the way. I have to admit that my experience has been much like her's: a few roughish events very early, but after six months or less of hrt nothing else. Provided I control voice, I really do not expect any difficulties. For one thing, I seem to have reached an age where my soft tissue shrinkage, even without ffs, has stopped. I should never have a problem with male dominant features being uncovered by that. (Take note younger transitioners. It DOES occur and you might want to start an ffs nest egg now for the days after you're forty, just in case.)

None of these things, though, seem to me to be a reason for anyone to feel guilty or shame. We are all differently advantaged in most respects. Probably the most important thing is that we do use and live into the advantages we have, and try to not highlight, to ourselves most especially, the things that we very well might despair over. Maybe that is the self belief factor that older TSes so often accent as a crucial item for transition.

Thanks to all for some timely and thoughtful commentary. I particularly appreciate the numbers of you who have encouraged me to not feel guilty about my own life. That was very sweet!  :) I don't. I just find it less unsettling to others if I can write about me and avoid using "you." That y word seems to be a great way to raise hackles. So I talked about my own guilt rather than stating that someone else feels it.

Thanks again. Hugs,

Nichole

I still don't get this guilt thing. Is it possible that the guilt comes from feeling superior to the less "passable?" I felt that way in the past and, yes, I guess I felt guilty about it.

Now, I kinda feel guilty about wasting so much energy on something (how we look, how others see us) that is such an ego-based delusion.

What is so ironic is that now that I have achieved the so-called "passing privilege" it is of very little importance to me.

Posted on: August 14, 2007, 09:13:17 AM

---

Quote from: Tink on August 13, 2007, 10:15:19 PM

Quote from: Rachael on August 13, 2007, 06:28:30 AM
Tink? vain? never! :P

R :police:

If you have it, show it off, right?  ;) ;D

tink :icon_chick:

She walked into the party, like she was walking into a yacht.
With her hat hat tucked strategically below one eye
Her scarf it was apricot
With one eye in the mirror as you watched yourself gavotte
And all the boys wished that they'd be your partner...

Quote from: Rommie on August 12, 2007, 07:23:22 AM
I felt guilt originally, but when I voiced it, it came off really badly.  I did it and talked about the things that happen to me in everyday life.  I was seeking support though.  I've had to leave the T* community for this kind of support and talk to women who have the same problems because it seems with women not born transsexual they experience the same things as unwanted attention, unwanted advances, etc. and have ways to get it to stop.  That's the kind of support I wasn't getting in the T* community.  When I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

That's exactly what happens.  For the most part, I'm really just astounded that I do pass like I do.  When I first began transitioning, I was certain I would never pass well...at least not until I spent like $100,000 on myself.  But then on hormones only, I suddenly find myself actually passing, so sometimes I'm still getting used to the fact that what happened was completely different than my expectations.  I NEVER expected my voice to pass, let alone be able to sing as female.  I thought it would be something I would have to give up doing forever.  Yet now I'm doing it as a solo.  When you are able to actually experience some of your greatest dreams, of course you want to talk about it and share it with others.  It's not about bragging, but rather just to share what is possible.  I'm doing and experiencing things that totally fly in face of EVERYTHING I've ever read about life would be like during and after transition.

In summary, I don't feel guilty whatsoever about passing, but simply amazement that I do.

Quote from: Candi Nahasapeemapetilon on August 12, 2007, 10:26:38 AM
"Don't hate me because I'm beautiful"... BAAAHHH.. I hate you (those that relish their passing and like to make a point about it) BECAUSE you are conceited, vain, and a showoff.

And that is precisely the kind of interpretation what we are talking about.  It's not bragging, showing off, being conceited, or being vain.  If you suddenly had some magic fairy come down and she granted you a wish to instantly turn you into a beautiful GG, wouldn't you want to share that with somebody else as well, or is it something you would shrug off and keep to yourself?**  Well, that's what it feels like for me at least.

One more thing, don't waste your energy being jealous of others.  I know I did *plenty* of that myself.  It's wasted energy that could be put towards finding your own comfort with yourself and your life.


**Hint: Most women LOVE to share stuff about their lives. ;)

Quote from: Rommie on August 12, 2007, 07:23:22 AM
Hi Nichole,

It's good to see more posts like this.  There was another thread like this that was started by gothique(sp?)

I think expressing sincere empathy and not pity can help with not feeling guilty. 

I think accepting just because someone may blend in doesn't mean that they are attractive could be another way to combat guilt.  Sometimes women who aren't attractive get just as much negative attention as a T* woman who doesn't blend in as the woman she is.

I think a way to combat guilt is that some women swear they blend in and don't notice others who react to them.

Lastly it's not good to feel guilt because lots of T* women who don't blend in look at women who do with a sense of pride that they are too just as good, they are represented, and I think they are genuinely happy for them (those who blend in) because it shows we are all women too.

I felt guilt originally, but when I voiced it, it came off really badly.  I did it and talked about the things that happen to me in everyday life.  I was seeking support though.  I've had to leave the T* community for this kind of support and talk to women who have the same problems because it seems with women not born transsexual they experience the same things as unwanted attention, unwanted advances, etc. and have ways to get it to stop.  That's the kind of support I wasn't getting in the T* community.  When I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

I'd spent my childhood and adult life thinking I'd have to deal with being discriminated against because of the way I looked.  I'd get feedback from others when I CD'd that I was very attractive, but I did my best to call it a lie because I didn't want to get my hopes up that it could be true.  Then I actually started living life and experiencing things that happen to women and not a T* and I found no support on how to cope with the jubilance of being treated like an attractive women, guilt of being treated as an attractive woman, or the fears associated with being perceived as attractive by others. :(  I thought if this happened it was supposed to be some kind of utopia.. nooooot!

Individually I don't feel guilt.  I take pride in being a representative of a lot of women who experience a world different that the one I do.  I feel honored to be able to help dispell the "we are men" myth and I'm learning to be more humble in the T* community about my experiences as I get my support for real life things elsewhere for now.  Hopefully one day this will change and the guilt of blending in will be a thing of the past.

Any GGs who happened onto this post are positively ROLLING right about now. I pray none have. It's posts like these that contribute to society's view that transwomen are not real women.
Attractive women don't need 'support' for looking good. And if they do, the last thing they would ever do is look to other women for it. They'd confide in a man about such an issue before another woman.

QuoteWhen I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

What in the Sam Hill? Intimidating? What being an attractive female? 'Oh it's so hard. I'm so pretty, it's scary. Poor me.'

Quote...with women not born transsexual they experience the same things as unwanted attention, unwanted advances, etc...

Quote...I found no support on how to cope with the jubilance of being treated like an attractive woman, guilt of being treated like an attractive woman, or the fears of being seen as an attractive woman to others.

Whoa. I don't even know where to begin. Unwanted attention, unwanted advances, fears?
Do you honestly think that only pretty women are catcalled at, hassled, or violated?
There is no more danger in being an attractive woman than a plain woman in any of those situations. Less comely women experience sexual harrassment, hassling, unwelcome propositioning, and sexual violence the same as beautiful women. And let's not forget the high rate of violence on transwomen regardless of their passability.

A guy looking to get laid will hassle the closest female regardless of whether or not she's a supermodel. A rapist doesn't care how much of an 'attractive woman' you are, as long as you're a woman.

Attractive women are far more likely to suffer abuse from other women than men.

Why do so many transwomen seem to have such a skewed view of what it means to be a woman? Why do I hear things from some transwomen that sound more like a man's fractured view of womanhood rather than a woman's view?
And we wonder why society has such a hard time accepting us. How can they if TS women project an idealized, fantasy view of women?

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PM
Any GGs who happened onto this post are positively ROLLING right about now. I pray none have. It's posts like these that contribute to society's view that transwomen are not real women.
Attractive women don't need 'support' for looking good. And if they do, the last thing they would ever do is look to other women for it. They'd confide in a man about such an issue before another woman.

Oh really, is that so? >:D  And you would know this?  Is it because you're a woman?  Here's an excerpt from an interesting page (http://www.leaderu.com/marshill/mhr09/fem1.html) about beauty (and is not written in a TG or TS context).

QuoteCompetition breads envy. We raise children on the tale of the aging queen to whom beauty has been her whole identity, the witch consumed with murderous jealousy toward her step-daughter, the fair Snow White. A girl knows she can lose friends if the boys give her too much more attention than her peers. Thus, while not having beauty exposes a woman to the danger of losing a date, a mate, or a job, having it exposes her to the danger of rejection by jealous friends or superiors.

In order to keep the peace, many women find it safer to play uglier-than-thou. "I feel so fat," says one eleven-year-old to her friend. "My hair is impossible." "My thighs are the worst." "Your thighs-yours are pencils compared to mine." Only brides have our full permission to celebrate their beauty. For the rest of us it would seem, well, vain to say, "Don't I look great today?"

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PM

QuoteWhen I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

What in the Sam Hill? Intimidating? What being an attractive female? 'Oh it's so hard. I'm so pretty, it's scary. Poor me.'

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PM
Whoa. I don't even know where to begin. Unwanted attention, unwanted advances, fears?
Do you honestly think that only pretty women are catcalled at, hassled, or violated?
There is no more danger in being an attractive woman than a plain woman in any of those situations. Less comely women experience sexual harrassment, hassling, unwelcome propositioning, and sexual violence the same as beautiful women. And let's not forget the high rate of violence on transwomen regardless of their passability.

A guy looking to get laid will hassle the closest female regardless of whether or not she's a supermodel. A rapist doesn't care how much of an 'attractive woman' you are, as long as you're a woman.

Nero, you may have grown up in a female body which was considered attractive, but because you are not a woman, your POV is entirely different than a woman would have.  What women consider "intimidating", may have been no bother at all to you.  Also, according to what you have said, you were unable to ever properly socialize with other women, so why would they confide things in you that they wouldn't in us?  Just remember, us women do not share the same feelings that you would have.

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PM
Why do so many transwomen seem to have such a skewed view of what it means to be a woman? Why do I hear things from some transwomen that sound more like a man's fractured view of womanhood rather than a woman's view?
And we wonder why society has such a hard time accepting us. How can they if TS women project an idealized, fantasy view of women?

Again, you are not realizing that you had a different mental context than women have, so don't assume that GGs share your frame of mind on this.  There is no way to know what a woman experiences unless you are one. >:(

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PMAttractive women are far more likely to suffer abuse from other women than men.

Um, I think you have just negated your own point. ::)


Anyhow, I don't personally feel that way.  I love the attention. :D  However, I do understand that women who don't like the attention can feel and I know that attitude is not limited to TS women, you will find it in equal dispersions among all groups of women.

i think passing is as much a privilage at the moment, as being white was over black in pre civil rights america... or any other case of 'better than another group' concepts. I think its as random too, some can, some cant, such is life. its nothing to need support over if you do, or be constantly lauded for it. it just is.
R :police:

Quote from: Melissa on August 14, 2007, 03:58:23 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PMAttractive women are far more likely to suffer abuse from other women than men.

Um, I think you have just negated your own point. ::)

How so? The poster only mentioned unwanted attention, advances, and fears about men. Believe me - men are a beautiful woman's last problem.
There seem to be a lot of myths in our community about women. GGs in particular. Some of my favorites:

'Women aren't competitive.' 'A competitive and catty transwoman is letting her male socialization slip out.' 'Women are always nice and polite.'

Nothing could be further from the truth. Women are just as, if not more so, competitive as men.

Quote from: Melissa on August 14, 2007, 03:58:23 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PM
Any GGs who happened onto this post are positively ROLLING right about now. I pray none have. It's posts like these that contribute to society's view that transwomen are not real women.
Attractive women don't need 'support' for looking good. And if they do, the last thing they would ever do is look to other women for it. They'd confide in a man about such an issue before another woman.

Oh really, is that so? >:D  And you would know this?  Is it because you're a woman? 

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PM

QuoteWhen I talked about it, it came off as bragging instead of really talking about how intimidating it is.

What in the Sam Hill? Intimidating? What being an attractive female? 'Oh it's so hard. I'm so pretty, it's scary. Poor me.'

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PM
Whoa. I don't even know where to begin. Unwanted attention, unwanted advances, fears?
Do you honestly think that only pretty women are catcalled at, hassled, or violated?
There is no more danger in being an attractive woman than a plain woman in any of those situations. Less comely women experience sexual harrassment, hassling, unwelcome propositioning, and sexual violence the same as beautiful women. And let's not forget the high rate of violence on transwomen regardless of their passability.

A guy looking to get laid will hassle the closest female regardless of whether or not she's a supermodel. A rapist doesn't care how much of an 'attractive woman' you are, as long as you're a woman.

Nero, you may have grown up in a female body which was considered attractive, but because you are not a woman, your POV is entirely different than a woman would have.  What women consider "intimidating", may have been no bother at all to you.  Also, according to what you have said, you were unable to ever properly socialize with other women, so why would they confide things in you that they wouldn't in us?  Just remember, us women do not share the same feelings that you would have.

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 03:19:13 PM
Why do so many transwomen seem to have such a skewed view of what it means to be a woman? Why do I hear things from some transwomen that sound more like a man's fractured view of womanhood rather than a woman's view?
And we wonder why society has such a hard time accepting us. How can they if TS women project an idealized, fantasy view of women?

Again, you are not realizing that you had a different mental context than women have, so don't assume that GGs share your frame of mind on this.  There is no way to know what a woman experiences unless you are one. >:(

I'm sure no TS would deny that it is impossible to live in the body of the opposite gender without knowing how that gender is treated, at least by strangers. While I was never a woman, I still picked up some female socialization and understanding of walking in the world perceived as a woman.
Are you saying you know nothing about walking in the world as a perceived man? I find that hard to believe.



 

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 04:35:56 PM

Quote from: Melissa on August 14, 2007, 03:58:23 PMUm, I think you have just negated your own point. ::)

How so?

Oh, I was just referring to the fact that pretty much the only person who got after her for that post was a man.

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 04:35:56 PMThe poster only mentioned unwanted attention, advances, and fears about men. Believe me - men are a beautiful woman's last problem.

Well, just being a woman alone increases the chance that men would be a problem to women (just look at statistics, plus the fact you mentioned it yourself).  However, men will watch women who fit a certain profile with whom to attack.  I'm not certain if being "beautiful" is a factor, but it may be to *some* of those men.  As for attention, early in my transition when I wasn't very attractive, no men hit on me.  Now I have it happening daily.  So being attractive makes a difference there. 

As for the attention being unwanted, you can read about that in a number of books.  One that immediately springs to mind that mentions this is What makes a woman very sexy (http://www.amazon.com/What-Makes-Woman-Very-Sexy/dp/0396089615) by Julia Grice.

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 04:35:56 PM
There seem to be a lot of myths in our community about women. GGs in particular. Some of my favorites:

'Women aren't competitive.' 'A competitive and catty transwoman is letting her male socialization slip out.' 'Women are always nice and polite.'

Nothing could be further from the truth. Women are just as, if not more so, competitive as men.

From my own experience, I would definitely agree with this.

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 04:35:56 PM
I'm sure no TS would deny that it is impossible to live in the body of the opposite gender without knowing how that gender is treated, at least by strangers. While I was never a woman, I still picked up some female socialization and understanding of walking in the world perceived as a woman.

You may have been treated by others as a woman, but that doesn't mean you perceived this treatment in the same way a woman would.

Quote from: Nero on August 14, 2007, 04:35:56 PMAre you saying you know nothing about walking in the world as a perceived man? I find that hard to believe.

I know nothing how a man perceives being seen as a man by the world; I only know how *I* perceived being seen as a man by the world (or whatever I was actually perceived as :-\).

Whoa, guys, both of you have opinions. They do not agree. And at this point neither of you is gonna cave in for the other. So, you have opinions.

Let other posters decide, if they wish. But this back and forth appears to be winning no hearts or minds.

You both are strong minded and believe in what you are saying. But, why not cool off a bit before posting anything else. Please?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I will say this: beauty, Melissa, or lack of it is absolutely NOT a predictor of rape or sexual assault.

They are 'power' crimes, having nothing to do with sex, except that the sex is perhaps the most humiliating and dehumanizing aspect of the rapist asserting, generally his, power over his victim.

Trust me, I have been there. It is demeaning and debasing, it is shattering. And, it has nothing to do with beauty or sex.

Nichole

That's fine.  My main driving point was that neither he nor I never had an accurate perspective of our birth sexes.  To claim otherwise that we are perceiving the world (including all mental processes and interpretations regarding our experiences) in a manner that is exactly the same as any non-TS member of our birthsex, precludes the belief that we had the brain and thought processes of our target genders from the beginning.

Perhaps some people do put too much emphasis on how much beauty affects the treatment of individuals, but I knew it was plain wrong to say that this type of POV is not shared among some GGs as well.

here was me thinking rape was the rapist wanting to shag someone hot they couldnt have?

R :police:

Quote from: Melissa on August 14, 2007, 06:29:54 PM
That's fine.  My main driving point was that neither he nor I never had an accurate perspective of our birth sexes.  To claim otherwise that we are perceiving the world (including all mental processes and interpretations regarding our experiences) in a manner that is exactly the same as any non-TS member of our birthsex, precludes the belief that we had the brain and thought processes of our target genders from the beginning.

Perhaps some people do put too much emphasis on how much beauty affects the treatment of individuals, but I knew it was plain wrong to say that this type of POV is not shared among some GGs as well.

Okay. Does that mean you are also saying that males and females are hardwired in how we think and perceive this particular discussion as well!? That there is a woman's pov that is hardwired into my brain? And yours. And a male one in his?

His pov and yours are shared in a lot of ggs and gms I know. A few one way and a few another. So if a woman shares her concerns about being pretty and its effect on other women with other women then that woman is a woman. If she shares it with men she is a male?

Surely that is NOT what you are saying, Melissa.

Nichole

tbh there are male paterns of thinking and female patterns, tehy wouldnt be steriotyped if they werent FAIRLY common, this doesnt say there are no exceptions.

R :police:

Could I ask a huge favor from everyone?  when quoting someone, would you please name the person who posted what you quoted?  It is really a headache to go back to all the posts to see who said what.  Thanks a bunch!  :)

tink :icon_chick:

Nero posted:

Quote
Whoa. I don't even know where to begin. Unwanted attention, unwanted advances, fears?
Do you honestly think that only pretty women are catcalled at, hassled, or violated?
There is no more danger in being an attractive woman than a plain woman in any of those situations. Less comely women experience sexual harrassment, hassling, unwelcome propositioning, and sexual violence the same as beautiful women. And let's not forget the high rate of violence on transwomen regardless of their passability.

A guy looking to get laid will hassle the closest female regardless of whether or not she's a supermodel. A rapist doesn't care how much of an 'attractive woman' you are, as long as you're a woman.

Attractive women are far more likely to suffer abuse from other women than men.

Why do so many transwomen seem to have such a skewed view of what it means to be a woman? Why do I hear things from some transwomen that sound more like a man's fractured view of womanhood rather than a woman's view?
And we wonder why society has such a hard time accepting us. How can they if TS women project an idealized, fantasy view of women?

Some of the stuff posted here astounds me, quite frankly. That said, I think I am going to a masectomy because now I am just constantly being hit on and ogled, I mean how much aggravation can a girl take, I am just glad that I am 59, I can't imagine the abuse I would have to endure had I done this thirty years ago.

I haven't been out much (still feeling listless) since I got back from Thailand, I feel better now but I find myself not wanting to leave the apartment. Maybe a burkha would help, I just don't know what I am going to do.

Quote from: Rachael on August 14, 2007, 06:51:36 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 15, 2007, 03:54:09 PM

Some of the stuff posted here astounds me, quite frankly. That said, I think I am going to a masectomy because now I am just constantly being hit on and ogled, I mean how much aggravation can a girl take, I am just glad that I am 59, I can't imagine the abuse I would have to endure had I done this thirty years ago.

I haven't been out much (still feeling listless) since I got back from Thailand, I feel better now but I find myself not wanting to leave the apartment. Maybe a burkha would help, I just don't know what I am going to do.

tbh there are male paterns of thinking and female patterns, tehy wouldnt be steriotyped if they werent FAIRLY common, this doesnt say there are no exceptions.

R :police:

Okay, Rach. There are male and female patterns. But, there are also male and female socializations. What seemed to be being talked about was an attempt to posit the latter as the former. That is pretty difficult to digest.

The difference is a big one.

There are some, probably, very valid differences in some ways women and men think. They have more to due with ways of using intuition, depth perception, a seeming inborn attachment to either the value of agency or communion in problem solving and other areas and very likely a different direction finder in the inner ear/auditory nerve areas of control. They do not involve with whom someone shares the things that bother her.

Those sorts of behavior are most likely caused by social conditioning. Or, it could be caused by someone raised in a gender she did not id within but socialized in that gender behavior anyway. Same true of men. Most of us cannot have it both ways.

We want gender change and presume that the only valid justifications are innate, essential and hereditary differences. So, we want to make nurture no longer part of the equasion.

To make the leap that in spite of my conditioning I always naturally went with this or that seems to be begging this question: So how did you manage to do what only very few like Buddha, Jesus have done in the past and not turn out to be some incarnation of a deity?   :-\

That is the problem there. Now, it is possible to recondition oneself, but I really do not think that how one talks about their previous conditioning and how they view that is hardwired.  :o

We may find that to be true one day, but it seems a bit farfetched.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nicole,

I have a friend who has a set of burkhas she is trying to sell. Bought them in 1979 when she thought she might be going to Iran to rescue hostages.

Nichole   ;D

tbh, i think your concept that some women are utterly hopless ly directionless when they suffer androgen insensitivity is rubbish, there is no direction ability linked to tesotosterone...
yes, nurture is important, but it is NOT as important as nature. belive me, im a prime example of nurture being utterly effing useless.

R :police:

I'm not talking about hardwired thinking, but rather that life is experienced differently due to GID.  Here's an example of what I mean.  I know there are exceptions (which is why I use the word 'Many'), but it demonstrates how the experience is going to be different.  This is based on what *I* have read and observed of FTMs and GGs.  In other words, it may be wrong, but this is where I'm coming from.

Breast growth
GG: Many see this as a rite of passage into woman.
FTM: Faces this with horror and sees this as a time of extreme torture because they are forced to experience changes to a body they do not want.

Wearing Dresses
GG: Many seem to have no problem with this.
FTM: Sees this as something that utterly disgusts them and causes them misery.  Unless forced, they will generally avoid dressing in feminine clothing.

Giving birth
GG: Many see this as a celebration of their womanhood and look forward to it.
FTM: This is something very few FTMs would ever consider doing.

Perhaps whether attention from men is perceived as unwanted and intimidating varies just as much with FTMs as it does for GGs.  In other words, some may find being hit on annoying, unwanted, or even intimidating (maybe the person just isn't ready for it yet) if those people are not interested in men, and it seems many FTMs are straight.

---

Anyhow, back to topic of the OP.  First of all, I don't mean this to sound arrogant or like I'm bragging or anything, so I tried to word it so it didn't come across that way.  If it still does, that was not my intention, nor how I feel.  I have been thinking about this and I realized I actually *do* experience at least some guilt.  I think this is perhaps one reason why I pursued trying to find out if I was IS.  At least it would provide an explanation why somebody who started transitioning at nearly 30 and has had absolutely no surgery, and is not IS passes without problem regardless of the type of people I'm around.  I've heard that teenage girls tend to be the best at spotting a TS, since they are constantly comparing themselves to other women and they are much more likely to verbalize any suspicions they may have.  Well, guess what most of the cast in the musical I'm in consists of?  That's right, plenty of teenage girls, and they have given no indication that they are perceiving me different than any other women.  Also, I have had ZERO problems with anybody since going fulltime. 

I know I have been read right at the beginning, so I certainly won't say I have always passed perfectly.  It's certainly possible that somebody may have read me as TS, but it sure seems like I'm having no problems.  So, then I read about others who are getting harassed and having plenty of problems (even hearing about problems in the area I live/work in).  Even a friend *I* thought passed really well told me she's been read at least a couple of times, so it's not like everybody is accepting or nobody ever says anything.  So when I hear about people being harassed or having problems with passing and my experience has been so much different, I guess I look for excuses (for instance, looking into being IS) so that I don't have to worry about others feeling jealous because then I can just say "I have this particular experience because of such and such, so you don't need to feel jealous."  To me, saying something like "I guess I was just lucky" just sounds like you are mocking the person.  This worry about other people's less positive experiences makes me feel bad that they can't have the same experience I do and that causes me to experience at least *some* guilt.  :-\

Quote from: Rachael on August 15, 2007, 04:36:02 PM
tbh, i think your concept that some women are utterly hopless ly directionless when they suffer androgen insensitivity is rubbish, there is no direction ability linked to tesotosterone...
yes, nurture is important, but it is NOT as important as nature. belive me, im a prime example of nurture being utterly effing useless.

R :police:

Actually, I just heard of a study (on TV) that the administration of Testosterone increases spatial abilities. Hormones are powerful stuff.

im better at directional stuff now.... go figure :P

R :police:

Honestly, the only time I really think about even the term "passing" is when I'm discussing it on message boards.  I don't pass.  I am.  And maybe that's diffrent things for diffrent people, but I've got too many other concerns.  Like making rent, getting food, having fun with friends.  I honestly don't have time to be paranoid much anymore about how others percieve me.  I think when I was just starting out the thought of calling people on the phone would have scared me.  But I mean now...I HAVE to make phone calls to get things done.

I feel like passing privilege is really just the privilege of being able to sit on your computer and obsess about it.

zactly...
R :police:

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 15, 2007, 07:38:55 PM


I feel like passing privilege is really just the privilege of being able to sit on your computer and obsess about it.

LOL!  >:D >:D >:D :angel: :angel: :angel:

[tongueincheak]who would i thank for this privilage? the company that make the hrt? the doctor that prescribed it? my parents for giving me bloody good genes? god? or just me? :D i mean, its a privilage, it can be taken away from me if im bad, i must be thankful [/tongueincheak]

R :police:

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on August 15, 2007, 07:38:55 PM
I feel like passing privilege is really just the privilege of being able to sit on your computer and obsess about it.

Lol, yep. :D  That's the only time I've ever talked about it.

Privilege:  Yes
Guilt:  No

I cant give myself the luxury to feel guilty for something it's my right to have.

QuoteI was at a restaurant outside with a friend when this man approached us twice.  He was an attractive man and I was kind. I felt safe at a family restaurant.  Well, he leaned over and the rope separating us from the outside world and kissed me.  I just froze.  I thought I'd have been stronger, but I caved in.

You encourage the guy then you complain that he acted on your encouragement.  As everything, this isn't about them, it's about you. It sounds like you feed on this, quite frankly. Even at my age, I get the same kind of stuff, there are all kinds of way to discourage these clods but first you must want to discourage them. (My defense when I walk in the TL or the Mission is I listen to my i-pod.) Simply diverting your eyes works. Men are very insecure and very easy to dismiss or encourage. But you have to have the desire to discourage them.

Anyway, the guy kissed you, big frigging deal, I had a cab driver reach under my panties in Phuket and up until now I haven't even talked about it here. I mentioned it to my GG friends and what I realized I did was really stupid, I accepted a free ride form this guy, they said "well ah duh!!!" Hey, it takes time to learn this stuff, I was just out of the hospital with my new breasts and wearing a bikini top. "Ah, duh!" is right. BTW dressing down is not hiding, I suspect a lot of attractive women do this when they do not want attention. You have choices, you can be the victim or you can assertively deal with this like a woman.

Oh, the guy at work, that is sexual harassment, there are ways to deal with that.

Rommie

QuoteI wasn't born into these looks over a lifetime.  I only have a year of coping with this.

How exactly did you become such a babe overnight? and did you get a Breast Aug BTW? I noticed the boobs to men can be quite an attractor, especially overly large ones, mine are not overly large but still attract quite a bit of attention. And are you a Blonde?

Quote from: regina on August 18, 2007, 08:02:24 PM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 18, 2007, 08:18:25 AM

You encourage the guy then you complain that he acted on your encouragement.  As everything, this isn't about them, it's about you. It sounds like you feed on this, quite frankly. Even at my age, I get the same kind of stuff, there are all kinds of way to discourage these clods but first you must want to discourage them. (My defense when I walk in the TL or the Mission is I listen to my i-pod.) Simply diverting your eyes works. Men are very insecure and very easy to dismiss or encourage. But you have to have the desire to discourage them.

There's a BIG difference between being nice to someone in an entirely non-sexual way and then having that person then turn about and do something disrespectful and invading your body and space... and, on the other hand, actually encouraging that behavior. Sorry, not the same at all.... I don't see that Rommie did anything wrong and I do see that the man who kissed you totally disrespected her person and space. Don't internalize the guilt!

Neither one of us were there and the description of what happened was vague. So neither of us know exactly how Rommie lead this guy on. When the cabdriver sexually assaulted me, did I cry all night long. No, I just laughed it off. And in the case of the cab driver, the only thing I did to encourage was accept a free ride. A really dumb thing to do as all my GG friends affirmed.

What a lot of women here need is real life socialization, that is obviously lacking in many cases.

QuoteWhat you've said here is completely analogous to saying "someone was asking for it" when they're assaulted.

PS I was the one assaulted, not Rommie. It's not analogous as we are discussing how to avoid getting hit on not assaulted. In my case, I won't be accepting any free rides from tuk-tuk drivers anytime soon.

Posted on: August 18, 2007, 09:37:32 PM

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Quote from: Rommie on August 18, 2007, 09:31:43 PM

Quote from: regina on August 18, 2007, 08:02:24 PMThere's a BIG difference between being nice to someone in an entirely non-sexual way and then having that person then turn about and do something disrespectful and invading your body and space... and, on the other hand, actually encouraging that behavior. Sorry, not the same at all. What you've said here is completely analogous to saying "someone was asking for it" when they're assaulted. I don't see that Rommie did anything wrong and I do see that the man who kissed you totally disrespected her person and space. Don't internalize the guilt!

Hi Regina,

Thank you.  I didn't encourage anything.  I was just trying to let him know I wasn't interested in a polite manner.  He was an attractive and very well dressed man.  My attire was business casual, showing no skin or anything.  He was talking/hitting on my friend, I thought and so I wasn't paying attention when he leaned in and that's why it took me by surprise.

Thank you for not thinking of me as a bad person or a guilty party.  I appreciated getting the benefit of the doubt. I should get over it, but I'm not as strong as others I guess and I needed help.  Until that moment I'd never known anyone invading my space.

Why did you tell him you weren't interested if he was hitting on your friend? Anyway, perhaps you can get Paxil or Prozac to help you get over this trauma. :)

I am not familiar with your background, I am puzzled as to how you developed into such a babe without getting any meaningful socialization.

What if you grew up a loner? And what if you never had much dating experience? Or even any dating experience? What if you married the first girl you could because you thought you could or would do no better? What if you never learned to flirt? What if the only unwanted attention you ever got was people bullying you? What if you thought there was no way anyone would ever want you?

Well? If all those things happened to you, you would be like me. And I don't believe it's uncommon or unrealistic to think that someone might finally let out their inner Beauty, and others would notice. That maybe accepting yourself makes you attractive to yourself and finally to others. But if you never flirted or felt attractive this could all be very scary and confusing.

Remember, most of us have been living a fake life for quite some time already. Learning to be who we really are is not always easy. I don't think Rommie was playing the "poor me" card. I would be willing to bet that plenty of T girls have had similar problems. Maybe we could just support everyone. It's hard to believe but even the snooty elitists need support and understanding, whether they admit it or not.

I do not begrudge those who are pretty any more than I would begrudge a GG for being pretty.(Bitches...lol J/K) Even if they are just bragging. There are lots of pretty girls who are still insecure about their looks for a whole variety of reasons, including unwanted attention. I don't see why T girls would be any different.

Nero, you are a typical male chauvinist pig in this regard. I have heard so many guys saying the same kinds of things over the years, about pretty girls.  Let's just say, out of their league. My daughter is very pretty and I would have never guessed the troubles a pretty girl could have, especially from the point of view I seen it as a teen. I always imagined girls like her had it made. Instead she ate her lunch in a bathroom stall everyday to avoid being treated bad, called a lesbian or threatened to be beat up by the bigger unattractive girls who held her responsible for all their problems.

Do pretty people get treated better by society? Yes. Does that mean their life is trouble free? No.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Tuk-Tuk drivers are notorious scammers of tourists and will scam you if your not street smart (I've been in Thailand a few times already), either driving you to a some borderlo, to a friend with a good "deal" instead of the place you want to go, etc.

After one of their scam, I took a real Taxi, a bit more expensive, but your not breathing diesel fumes and dust. Dust pollution in Bangkock before the monsoon is particularly bad, but diesel fumes are there all the time; chinese cities are 10x worse though.

Quote from: Keira on August 18, 2007, 10:49:05 PM

Tuk-Tuk drivers are notorious scammers of tourists and will scam you if your not street smart (I've been in Thailand a few times already), either driving you to a some borderlo, to a friend with a good "deal" instead of the place you want to go, etc.

After one of their scam, I took a real Taxi, a bit more expensive, but your not breathing diesel fumes and dust. Dust pollution in Bangkock before the monsoon is particularly bad, but diesel fumes are there all the time; chinese cities are 10x worse though.

I must have turned down 100 offers from the tuk-tuk drivers, my intuition must be better than I thought. I always wondered why they were all begging to take me for a ride.

Quote from: Jeannette on August 17, 2007, 04:08:29 AM
Privilege:  Yes
Guilt:  No

I cant give myself the luxury to feel guilty for something its my right to have.

same here.

I'm privileged in so many ways and I don't feel guilty about anything.  Life has always been so and it will remain so.  Some peeps have the things they want and some dont.  Some work very hard to have what they want and dont have and yet others pity themselves and wait for the sun to fall upon them.

Jeez, this thread is still alive and kicking.

1. I've always admired and appreciated the beautiful. Yes, I wish I could have the looks, grace and femininity of Uma Thurman for example. So do I expect her to feel guilty? heck no. However, if we met and she told me "haha, i'm gorgeous and you're ugly," then I'd like her less, but that's my own deal. So for those who pass, enjoy it, revel it, because there are many that are not that fortunate. Just for the record, yes that is me in my avatar and i'm not on mones.. yet.

2. Yes, the attention is nice, but can be dangerous. That just comes with the territory. I have a smaller wee-wee than most guys, (funny, the size is convenient now), so I grew up feeling less manly and subsequently less attractive--as a man. I also grew up with the burden of being the smarter kid, the gifted one, so I had to perform well in school. So there are obstacles with every gift or flaw. Each has its own issues and those who live with them have to cope.

finally, now i know what's it's like on the other end. i am guilty of oogling at a pretty girl; great face, great body, how can you NOT want to feast on that visual delight. (though i never whistled or as Sideshow Bob would lament having to say, "capital knockers, madam"). But now, i'm the subject of those stares and catcalls, and yea, it is unnerving, but you learn to deal with it. ignore it, or join in the fun with flirting back.

In defense of Rommie, you stated that "I learned in the T* community it was tabu to even talk about the way you looked and you should just shut up, be pretty, and not be heard.".... well bullcrap to that. If this issue, or any issue, can't be discussed maturely then it's their problem and they'll need to look within to discover their opposition to it (if they're lucky enough to have that much self-awareness.) Dumb turds. I kid, I kid... I kid because I care! LOL.

Quote from: regina on August 19, 2007, 12:11:30 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 18, 2007, 09:41:11 PM
Neither one of us were there and the description of what happened was vague. So neither of us know exactly how Rommie lead this guy on.

Whatever Nicole. You seem awfully angry at Rommie for reasons I don't understand. Why are you assuming she's lying or putting some 'innocent' spin on something sordid she did?

QuotePS I was the one assaulted, not Rommie. It's not analogous as we are discussing how to avoid getting hit on not assaulted. In my case, I won't be accepting any free rides from tuk-tuk drivers anytime soon.

Whenever someone touches you in a personal way despite zero permission from you, that is, in my book, on a spectrum of assault. I'm not disputing that what happened to you was horrible (and again, talking about socialization, most women wouldn't be going out on their own in a huge foreign city, especially one they don't know and don't speak the language... that's just street smarts 101). I'm not blaming either of you... neither of you were 'asking for it' and what happened to you might have happened no matter how you behaved (as it does with rape... to take it several steps further). But I was talking about Rommie's situation and I didn't like the blame you laid on her.

QuoteWhy did you tell him you weren't interested if he was hitting on your friend? Anyway, perhaps you can get Paxil or Prozac to help you get over this trauma. :)

Not a very Buddhist response, Nicole. But I understand you being upset about what happened in Bangkok.

ciao,
Gina M.

Yes, I almost edited out that comment, it was meant as a joke, I apologize if it hurt anyone. OTOH we should learn from these experiences, not allow them to drive us into despair. Yes, I guess I have a thicker skin than most people. Having the courage and lack of fear has nothing to do with socialization, that is, quite frankly, absurd. I go anywhere I want, anytime I want. I have no fear. The only thing I did that was ill-advised was accept the ride. Rommie most certainly did something that she could correct or do differently to discourage kissing bandits. I am not blaming her just stating my opinion. It is hard to tell what is going on when members are so vague about their experiences.

In reference to Nero's comment about GGs laughing. So often, I feel the same way. I have been lucky to be socialized at a much higher rate than a lot of us primarily because  as a recovering alcoholic, sexual and drug addict, I spend 10-20 hours a week in women only groups in which women talk about their most intimate feelings. I don't know what a "normie" would do to get that kind of intimate socialization but certainly there are women's groups of other types women can participate in.

QuoteWhy are you assuming she's lying or putting some 'innocent' spin on something sordid she did?

I could be totally wrong in this case or many others but I read so many posts here in which red flags tell my skeptical mind, especially in the context of previous posts, that the poster is being less than candid, posturing, or in extreme cases, either fabricating or being delusional. My intuition in this regard is usually accurate but not infallible.

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 09:28:43 AM

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Quote from: Rommie on August 19, 2007, 06:06:24 AM
Hi again Elizabeth and Regina,

Thanks for being caring.  Thanks for understanding.  I'm totally not perfect and could have said things better than I have, but I think you get the point I'm making.  Even if you're not thanks for treating my own insecurities about this new found attention with respect.

Hi Melissa,

I've seen people say mean things to you about your looks and I've cringed.

Really? When was that? That sounds like a back-handed way to slam me BTW.

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 09:31:13 AM

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Quote from: Rommie on August 19, 2007, 06:06:24 AM
Hi again Elizabeth and Regina,


  I can't figure out if you think I'm lying, exaggerating or what, but it's obvious (not only to me) that there is some kind of problem you have with me.  That prozac comment was really mean spirited and hurt.  I would have thought you would know what it's like to be hurt by people on this forum and wouldn't have said something like that when I clearly communicated this wasn't a small thing for me (even if it's small for you).  I don't know what I did.

The problem that I have with our posts, not YOU is that what I am hearing, correct me if I am wrong, is that you are telling us that in the space of a year, you transformed yourself from a CD into a babe that just totally drives all the men crazy. There is a ring of incredibility in that scenario. Of course, anything is possible but I am sure there are lurkers here who haven't begun transition who would like to know some of your secrets.

It is good that you are working on this with your therapist, you obviously have a lot of work to do in building up your self-esteem as I do as well. I would like to see you building a GG network of support in real life. I am sure that some would have some very specific advice if given a very specific scenario.  I am also sure that some of them would have told you to get over it and move on as well. :)

Gina, I edited out that "getting clocked" comment like fifteen minutes ago just after I posted it.

Anyway, now that you have posted it, I won't take it back. However,  now I am really confused because I thought Rommie was a CD who started on HRT about a year ago. That said, it is certainly possible to be attractive without HRT. I was and the type of attention I used to get at that stage seems similar to what Rommie is getting now.





Posted on: August 19, 2007, 10:24:10 AM

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Quote from: regina on August 19, 2007, 10:16:39 AM

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 09:41:26 AM
Yes, I almost edited out that comment, it was meant as a joke, I apologize if it hurt anyone.

I know it was a joke, and I know you're not a meanie, Nicole. Just don't give us the Buddhist stuff from one side of the mouth and then turn around and do a  b*tchy hit and run!

Run? I don't understand what you mean.

I think I have made it clear that I was working on self-awareness not that I have mastered it. Even my teachers have "relapses." None of us are perfect.



============================================
EDIT: So I think it just hit me what Rommie was referring to as far as my photos. As some of you know, I am an artist, I dabble in photography, a while back I did a lot self-portraits that showed a stark side of me. The photo were very artisitc, I even processed one to make it look Munch-like. Of course, a lot of people didn't get it, some did, on a photographers site, I was told that I should have them displayed at a a gallery. I should have had better judgment than to post them at a trans site though.

Ha ha ha some of you might even remember my climax self-portrait that caused so much controversy. That pose and getting it in a self-portrait was indeed a wok of art but very few got that one either!


(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mala.bc.ca%2F%7Emcneil%2Fjpg%2Fmunch.jpg&hash=3c263fb4faf67da097c6728c5faf45f3dc70e85b)

One of my photos was processed to evoke the above. One transwomen/art critic said my photos were distrubing. Ah-duh!

Geez, I hope I still have those old works somewhere!

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 10:31:55 AM

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Here is my favorite work:

(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa155%2FNicole94114%2Fsurferdudeafterthestorm.jpg&hash=22ac4f21f9803872f20cf70efeb9ac852f9dd276)

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 11:45:03 AM

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Here is one of my old self-portraits, can't find the Munch one, my most distrubing:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa155%2FNicole94114%2Flace2aura.jpg&hash=fcc7e8d5066ce4a86b850d498c18569a0e056057)

Quote from: Rommie on August 19, 2007, 06:06:24 AM
The social skills you're talking about I have a lot of.  I talk to anyone and everyone and I love hanging out with people.  Someone crossing my boundaries of comfort I've never dealt with before.  I think what you've communicated is that I'm immature or should handle it better? (that situation), but I wasn't capable.  I didn't cut my hair off and sit in a dark room for days.  That night I cried for a whole lot of reasons, but the biggest one was fear and guilt that I had done something to deserve it.

When I wrote about it the next day on that forum I told you about the amount of GG support was just so beautiful.  They got it.  They related with me and they helped me to deal with it.  Then that week I talked with my psychologist and she helped me use mental tools to get past this too.  Again I wish I had the ability to blow it off and deal with it, but I don't yet.  I'm hoping it never happens again, but until then I'm going to continue to be the outgoing person I am.

Rommie, this is waaaaayyyy melodramatic here. If I just read these two paragraphs, I would assume you were talking about having been raped. Look, you were talking 'nice' to the guy. ::) Which is usually taken as flirting. The man obviously thought you were reciprocating his flirting and that his actions would be welcome. Women know when a man is flirting and to brush him off quickly if it's unwelcome. Men do not just randomly walk up and kiss women (except in certain places and situations, which if you were in a place or situation I'm talking about, you should've been prepared for), unless the woman is clearly open to it.
In no situation under any circumstances does a woman ever deserve to be sexually violated.
But a kiss? Puleeeeaaase. Women around the world are screaming from the pains of rape as we speak, and you're worried about a kiss from a man you were flirting with?

Nero, that's my take on it as well. (based on the vague narrative that leaves a lot out)  Now this may sound boastful but I read stuff like this and really feel like I have been blessed with the opportunity of socialization in the "inner circle" in my AA groups. I am certaqin that she wouldn't get the sympathy she got "online" in the real world.

I empathize with Rommie, because I have had a couple of incidents myself (both since starting transition).  On time I was almost raped by a guy and another time, I had some guy come up to me and start kissing meand touching me all over.  I was SO naive at that time that I didn't know how to respond.  Particularly because I like the attention to a certain degree, but I didn't like feeling violated.  Since then, I have learned to say "no" to men and that's ok.  I've generally found that when men do things for you because you are beautiful, they *are* expecting something in return.  So be VERY careful before accepting anything from them besides manners and courtesy.  I have learned a lot in the time I have transitioned, so I haven't had any problems since.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 11:52:36 AM
Here is one of my old self-portraits, can't find the Munch one, my most distrubing:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa155%2FNicole94114%2Flace2aura.jpg&hash=fcc7e8d5066ce4a86b850d498c18569a0e056057)

Hmm, that kind of looks like that character in the movie "Scream".

Quote from: Nero on August 19, 2007, 12:02:17 PM
Rommie, this is waaaaayyyy melodramatic here. If I just read these two paragraphs, I would assume you were talking about having been raped. Look, you were talking 'nice' to the guy. ::) Which is usually taken as flirting. The man obviously thought you were reciprocating his flirting and that his actions would be welcome.

So if I say "Good Morning!" to some narcissistic idiot and he interprets that as "Hey, wanna get a room?" and starts fondling me... it's my fault for being naive?

There's a LONG way to go from verbal flirting to "please kiss me now."

I mean OK, am unwelcome kiss isn't as physically abusive as a rape. But it's STILL emotionally invasive and violating, and I don't think it's helpful to dismiss someone's feelings just because we don't share them.

OMG, so this is the kinda stuff I can look forward to now, huh?

(takes notes)

~Kate~

Quote from: regina on August 19, 2007, 02:17:39 PM

Quote from: Nero on August 19, 2007, 12:02:17 PM
In no situation under any circumstances does a woman ever deserve to be sexually violated.
But a kiss? Puleeeeaaase. Women around the world are screaming from the pains of rape as we speak, and you're worried about a kiss from a man you were flirting with?

Okay Nero, so next time you're concerned or upset about something in your life, my caring response will be to "suck it up, worrywart, because somewhere in the world, there is someone who's going through something worse than you." That is so much dismissive rubbish.

Btw, nobody equated what Rommie went through as analogous to rape. But it was a violation of her person just as if someone grabbed her ass or her boob. And in my 50+ years, I have seen MANY women slap, hit or scream at guys who grabbed them inappropriately. Evidently, they didn't view it as some little trifle. And you're all making an awful lot of unfounded assumptions about how much permission Rommie gave him to do that. If she says she didn't, I'm going to take her at face value. I've always found her to be a very honest person.

ciao,
Gina M.

Yeah, they slap, hit, or scream as it's happening, maybe rant about it to a lover or friend that night. But that's it. They don't go crying about it for support days after the fact, let alone online. Women get over these things. If someone is a woman and needs to live as one, they need to learn really quick to toughen up their hide. She can't obsess about 'personal space'. Slap the guy and move on.
Because it will not be the last time. You can't go out into the world as a woman without knowing how to handle yourself.

lets not bring neros manhood into this, as we all know, he has more experience of natal females than most m2fs... even though he is a guy :P
i think hes right, women would bitchslap the bejesus out of someone who touched them inapropriately, they would probably mention it, maybe not. hey, it happens to us.... rommie isnt exactly crying for support, but i guess if a context arose, a woman would mention an example in a discussion that warrented it, online or not.
R :police:

Quote from: Melissa on August 19, 2007, 02:00:27 PM
I empathize with Rommie, because I have had a couple of incidents myself (both since starting transition).  On time I was almost raped by a guy and another time, I had some guy come up to me and start kissing meand touching me all over.  I was SO naive at that time that I didn't know how to respond.  Particularly because I like the attention to a certain degree, but I didn't like feeling violated.  Since then, I have learned to say "no" to men and that's ok.  I've generally found that when men do things for you because you are beautiful, they *are* expecting something in return.  So be VERY careful before accepting anything from them besides manners and courtesy.  I have learned a lot in the time I have transitioned, so I haven't had any problems since.

Quote from: melissa90299 on August 19, 2007, 11:52:36 AM
Here is one of my old self-portraits, can't find the Munch one, my most distrubing:
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa155%2FNicole94114%2Flace2aura.jpg&hash=fcc7e8d5066ce4a86b850d498c18569a0e056057)

Hmm, that kind of looks like that character in the movie "Scream".

Thanks, not quite as disturbing as my "munch-like" photo. Wish I could find that one.

Quote from: melissa90299


One of my photos was processed to evoke the above. One transwomen/art critic said my photos were distrubing. Ah-duh!

Geez, I hope I still have those old works somewhere!

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 10:31:55 AM

---

Here is my favorite work:



Posted on: August 19, 2007, 11:45:03 AM

---

Here is one of my old self-portraits, can't find the Munch one, my most distrubing:

disturbing?  if find them genuinely beautiful.  but i'm weird, you know?  ;)

i see a marilyn manson's resemblance.  >:D  ha ha ha ha kidding!

Quote from: Nichole W. on August 19, 2007, 04:16:17 PM
Apology hat:

Rommie, yesterday's post by me may have come off preachy.

I apologize for that.

What happened to you was just as outrageous as having my own person felt of by a guy on a street. I do get your outrage and even bewilderment. I'm sure it didn't come across that way to you. I apologize. You have, as does any other woman, or man for that matter, not only a right, but a perfectly good reason to feel the way you do/did.

Fact is, that as long as we maintain double standards of behavior for men and women and a double standard in blame for incidents like this: we will continue to find fault with the victim.

It doesn't matter if you were flirting audaciously with the guy or paying him no attention at all.

YOU did not cause him to act the way he did. HE did.



Thread mod hat:

Okay guy and gals.

Rommie was given unwanted attention. I can feel her outrage at that. When it has happened to me I have hit and screamed at the man. She did not, that doesn't make her bad or unreal or any less violated.

As for bringing it up as a topic, why shouldn't she. It may be a better idea to post it as a separate topic, but that isn't what happened. She did what she did; and, now it HAS become the topic.

Along with women of all sorts and our relationships with men of all sorts. But, is the whole thing worthy of everyone getting their thongs and briefs in an uproar. Rommie didn't say when it happened. She did say she has gotten gg support on the web for how she felt. Mayube she should expect as much from us as well. 

Can we just leave each other in peace about it? Or do we have to visit anger and hurt on each other as well.

Rommie hurt or does hurt. I give her perfect credibility when it comes to relating her own feelings.

Please, let's not get personal with one another. 'K?


And, I want to thank Kate for bringing me a bit of wonderful wisdom. Thanks.
Nichole

Whatever happened, whatever the circumstances were, she's still making a mountain out of a molehill.
I apologize if this comes off as unfeeling or whatever, but we live in reality, not fantasyland.
Walking in this world as a woman is not all frills and fluff. Not all fun and games.
Women are objectified, women are sexual targets. ALL women, not just the beautiful ones. Doesn't mean it's right what happens, but it won't be the last time.


Some women should quit lamenting like some maudlin spirits, and prepare for the next time they face this kind of thing.

I just want to say something here that may be important. I have known Rommie for over three years now. She is one of the kindest, warmest human beings I have ever known. She has selflessly given of herself to help and support many other transgendered people, myself included. When I was suicidal, she was the voice of reason making sure I contacted my therapist and got help.

It was rare for her to ever ask for support herself. She is not a whiner and I would not call her naive. She has always been a really pretty girl. At least as long as I have known her. But the life she has led has left her ill prepared to deal with the attention she is getting. Unlike someone who grew up in a girls body and have had guys checking them out since their breasts first bud, she has no such experience to fall back on. She don't know she can smack them, berate them and threaten to call authorities. How could she?

She is a gentle person and is quite sincere in what she is saying. She is not looking for attention or "whoa is me". She is learning socialization as a woman. She asked for all of your support and understanding and advice. Trust me, if she were fishing for compliments she could post pictures of herself and easily get them. Truth is, she is a pretty private person.

I know her and she is a good person, the kind of person I would be proud to have lunch with. She is very down to earth and not full of herself. It's sad for me to see people have such a skewed view of her, when I know her to be such a wonderful person.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 19, 2007, 10:54:54 PM
I just want to say something here that may be important. I have known Rommie for over three years now. She is one of the kindest, warmest human beings I have ever known. She has selflessly given of herself to help and support many other transgendered people, myself included. When I was suicidal, she was the voice of reason making sure I contacted my therapist and got help.

It was rare for her to ever ask for support herself. She is not a whiner and I would not call her naive. She has always been a really pretty girl. At least as long as I have known her. But the life she has led has left her ill prepared to deal with the attention she is getting. Unlike someone who grew up in a girls body and have had guys checking them out since their breasts first bud, she has no such experience to fall back on. She don't know she can smack them, berate them and threaten to call authorities. How could she?

She is a gentle person and is quite sincere in what she is saying. She is not looking for attention or "whoa is me". She is learning socialization as a woman. She asked for all of your support and understanding and advice. Trust me, if she were fishing for compliments she could post pictures of herself and easily get them. Truth is, she is a pretty private person.

I know her and she is a good person, the kind of person I would be proud to have lunch with. She is very down to earth and not full of herself. It's sad for me to see people have such a skewed view of her, when I know her to be such a wonderful person.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Thank you Elizabeth.  As I said I have exchanged several PM's with her, and I have also found her to be a very kind, sensitive person.  Anyhow let's just hope that this is all a misunderstanding.  I want to think it is, but.....


*hugs*

tink :icon_chick:

Quote from: Elizabeth on August 19, 2007, 10:54:54 PM
I just want to say something here that may be important. I have known Rommie for over three years now. She is one of the kindest, warmest human beings I have ever known. She has selflessly given of herself to help and support many other transgendered people, myself included. When I was suicidal, she was the voice of reason making sure I contacted my therapist and got help.

It was rare for her to ever ask for support herself. She is not a whiner and I would not call her naive. She has always been a really pretty girl. At least as long as I have known her. But the life she has led has left her ill prepared to deal with the attention she is getting. Unlike someone who grew up in a girls body and have had guys checking them out since their breasts first bud, she has no such experience to fall back on. She don't know she can smack them, berate them and threaten to call authorities. How could she?

She is a gentle person and is quite sincere in what she is saying. She is not looking for attention or "whoa is me". She is learning socialization as a woman. She asked for all of your support and understanding and advice. Trust me, if she were fishing for compliments she could post pictures of herself and easily get them. Truth is, she is a pretty private person.

I know her and she is a good person, the kind of person I would be proud to have lunch with. She is very down to earth and not full of herself. It's sad for me to see people have such a skewed view of her, when I know her to be such a wonderful person.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Those of us who don't know her only have her posts to go on. I will always post my opinions on someone's words, not them as a person.
I feel the issue needs to be raised that transwomen need to be prepared for unwanted attention that is as normal as daily breakfast for GGs.

Posted on: August 20, 2007, 12:07:31 AM

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This topic has degenerated from it's original subject and is going nowhere but in circles, for which I am partly to blame.
I was trying to make a valid point but apparently failed to deliver.

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