Passing Privilege and Guilt

[Yvonne]

I'm privileged in so many ways and I don't feel guilty about anything.  Life has always been so and it will remain so.  Some peeps have the things they want and some dont.  Some work very hard to have what they want and dont have and yet others pity themselves and wait for the sun to fall upon them.

[candifla]

Jeez, this thread is still alive and kicking.

1. I've always admired and appreciated the beautiful. Yes, I wish I could have the looks, grace and femininity of Uma Thurman for example. So do I expect her to feel guilty? heck no. However, if we met and she told me "haha, i'm gorgeous and you're ugly," then I'd like her less, but that's my own deal. So for those who pass, enjoy it, revel it, because there are many that are not that fortunate. Just for the record, yes that is me in my avatar and i'm not on mones.. yet.

2. Yes, the attention is nice, but can be dangerous. That just comes with the territory. I have a smaller wee-wee than most guys, (funny, the size is convenient now), so I grew up feeling less manly and subsequently less attractive--as a man. I also grew up with the burden of being the smarter kid, the gifted one, so I had to perform well in school. So there are obstacles with every gift or flaw. Each has its own issues and those who live with them have to cope.

finally, now i know what's it's like on the other end. i am guilty of oogling at a pretty girl; great face, great body, how can you NOT want to feast on that visual delight. (though i never whistled or as Sideshow Bob would lament having to say, "capital knockers, madam"). But now, i'm the subject of those stares and catcalls, and yea, it is unnerving, but you learn to deal with it. ignore it, or join in the fun with flirting back.

In defense of Rommie, you stated that "I learned in the T* community it was tabu to even talk about the way you looked and you should just shut up, be pretty, and not be heard.".... well bullcrap to that. If this issue, or any issue, can't be discussed maturely then it's their problem and they'll need to look within to discover their opposition to it (if they're lucky enough to have that much self-awareness.) Dumb turds. I kid, I kid... I kid because I care! LOL.

[melissa90299]

Neither one of us were there and the description of what happened was vague. So neither of us know exactly how Rommie lead this guy on.

Whatever Nicole. You seem awfully angry at Rommie for reasons I don't understand. Why are you assuming she's lying or putting some 'innocent' spin on something sordid she did?

PS I was the one assaulted, not Rommie. It's not analogous as we are discussing how to avoid getting hit on not assaulted. In my case, I won't be accepting any free rides from tuk-tuk drivers anytime soon.

Whenever someone touches you in a personal way despite zero permission from you, that is, in my book, on a spectrum of assault. I'm not disputing that what happened to you was horrible (and again, talking about socialization, most women wouldn't be going out on their own in a huge foreign city, especially one they don't know and don't speak the language... that's just street smarts 101). I'm not blaming either of you... neither of you were 'asking for it' and what happened to you might have happened no matter how you behaved (as it does with rape... to take it several steps further). But I was talking about Rommie's situation and I didn't like the blame you laid on her.

Why did you tell him you weren't interested if he was hitting on your friend? Anyway, perhaps you can get Paxil or Prozac to help you get over this trauma.

Not a very Buddhist response, Nicole. But I understand you being upset about what happened in Bangkok.

ciao,
Gina M.

Yes, I almost edited out that comment, it was meant as a joke, I apologize if it hurt anyone. OTOH we should learn from these experiences, not allow them to drive us into despair. Yes, I guess I have a thicker skin than most people. Having the courage and lack of fear has nothing to do with socialization, that is, quite frankly, absurd. I go anywhere I want, anytime I want. I have no fear. The only thing I did that was ill-advised was accept the ride. Rommie most certainly did something that she could correct or do differently to discourage kissing bandits. I am not blaming her just stating my opinion. It is hard to tell what is going on when members are so vague about their experiences.

In reference to Nero's comment about GGs laughing. So often, I feel the same way. I have been lucky to be socialized at a much higher rate than a lot of us primarily because  as a recovering alcoholic, sexual and drug addict, I spend 10-20 hours a week in women only groups in which women talk about their most intimate feelings. I don't know what a "normie" would do to get that kind of intimate socialization but certainly there are women's groups of other types women can participate in.

Why are you assuming she's lying or putting some 'innocent' spin on something sordid she did?

I could be totally wrong in this case or many others but I read so many posts here in which red flags tell my skeptical mind, especially in the context of previous posts, that the poster is being less than candid, posturing, or in extreme cases, either fabricating or being delusional. My intuition in this regard is usually accurate but not infallible.

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 09:28:43 AM

Hi again Elizabeth and Regina,

Thanks for being caring.  Thanks for understanding.  I'm totally not perfect and could have said things better than I have, but I think you get the point I'm making.  Even if you're not thanks for treating my own insecurities about this new found attention with respect.

Hi Melissa,

I've seen people say mean things to you about your looks and I've cringed.

Really? When was that? That sounds like a back-handed way to slam me BTW.

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 09:31:13 AM

Hi again Elizabeth and Regina,


  I can't figure out if you think I'm lying, exaggerating or what, but it's obvious (not only to me) that there is some kind of problem you have with me.  That prozac comment was really mean spirited and hurt.  I would have thought you would know what it's like to be hurt by people on this forum and wouldn't have said something like that when I clearly communicated this wasn't a small thing for me (even if it's small for you).  I don't know what I did.

The problem that I have with our posts, not YOU is that what I am hearing, correct me if I am wrong, is that you are telling us that in the space of a year, you transformed yourself from a CD into a babe that just totally drives all the men crazy. There is a ring of incredibility in that scenario. Of course, anything is possible but I am sure there are lurkers here who haven't begun transition who would like to know some of your secrets.

It is good that you are working on this with your therapist, you obviously have a lot of work to do in building up your self-esteem as I do as well. I would like to see you building a GG network of support in real life. I am sure that some would have some very specific advice if given a very specific scenario.  I am also sure that some of them would have told you to get over it and move on as well.

[melissa90299]

Gina, I edited out that "getting clocked" comment like fifteen minutes ago just after I posted it.

Anyway, now that you have posted it, I won't take it back. However,  now I am really confused because I thought Rommie was a CD who started on HRT about a year ago. That said, it is certainly possible to be attractive without HRT. I was and the type of attention I used to get at that stage seems similar to what Rommie is getting now.





Posted on: August 19, 2007, 10:24:10 AM

Yes, I almost edited out that comment, it was meant as a joke, I apologize if it hurt anyone.

I know it was a joke, and I know you're not a meanie, Nicole. Just don't give us the Buddhist stuff from one side of the mouth and then turn around and do a  b*tchy hit and run!

Run? I don't understand what you mean.

I think I have made it clear that I was working on self-awareness not that I have mastered it. Even my teachers have "relapses." None of us are perfect.



============================================
EDIT: So I think it just hit me what Rommie was referring to as far as my photos. As some of you know, I am an artist, I dabble in photography, a while back I did a lot self-portraits that showed a stark side of me. The photo were very artisitc, I even processed one to make it look Munch-like. Of course, a lot of people didn't get it, some did, on a photographers site, I was told that I should have them displayed at a a gallery. I should have had better judgment than to post them at a trans site though.

Ha ha ha some of you might even remember my climax self-portrait that caused so much controversy. That pose and getting it in a self-portrait was indeed a wok of art but very few got that one either!




One of my photos was processed to evoke the above. One transwomen/art critic said my photos were distrubing. Ah-duh!

Geez, I hope I still have those old works somewhere!

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 10:31:55 AMHere is my favorite work:



Posted on: August 19, 2007, 11:45:03 AMHere is one of my old self-portraits, can't find the Munch one, my most distrubing:

[Nero]

The social skills you're talking about I have a lot of.  I talk to anyone and everyone and I love hanging out with people.  Someone crossing my boundaries of comfort I've never dealt with before.  I think what you've communicated is that I'm immature or should handle it better? (that situation), but I wasn't capable.  I didn't cut my hair off and sit in a dark room for days.  That night I cried for a whole lot of reasons, but the biggest one was fear and guilt that I had done something to deserve it.

When I wrote about it the next day on that forum I told you about the amount of GG support was just so beautiful.  They got it.  They related with me and they helped me to deal with it.  Then that week I talked with my psychologist and she helped me use mental tools to get past this too.  Again I wish I had the ability to blow it off and deal with it, but I don't yet.  I'm hoping it never happens again, but until then I'm going to continue to be the outgoing person I am.

Rommie, this is waaaaayyyy melodramatic here. If I just read these two paragraphs, I would assume you were talking about having been raped. Look, you were talking 'nice' to the guy. Which is usually taken as flirting. The man obviously thought you were reciprocating his flirting and that his actions would be welcome. Women know when a man is flirting and to brush him off quickly if it's unwelcome. Men do not just randomly walk up and kiss women (except in certain places and situations, which if you were in a place or situation I'm talking about, you should've been prepared for), unless the woman is clearly open to it.
In no situation under any circumstances does a woman ever deserve to be sexually violated.
But a kiss? Puleeeeaaase. Women around the world are screaming from the pains of rape as we speak, and you're worried about a kiss from a man you were flirting with?

[melissa90299]

Nero, that's my take on it as well. (based on the vague narrative that leaves a lot out)  Now this may sound boastful but I read stuff like this and really feel like I have been blessed with the opportunity of socialization in the "inner circle" in my AA groups. I am certaqin that she wouldn't get the sympathy she got "online" in the real world.

[Melissa]

I empathize with Rommie, because I have had a couple of incidents myself (both since starting transition).  On time I was almost raped by a guy and another time, I had some guy come up to me and start kissing meand touching me all over.  I was SO naive at that time that I didn't know how to respond.  Particularly because I like the attention to a certain degree, but I didn't like feeling violated.  Since then, I have learned to say "no" to men and that's ok.  I've generally found that when men do things for you because you are beautiful, they *are* expecting something in return.  So be VERY careful before accepting anything from them besides manners and courtesy.  I have learned a lot in the time I have transitioned, so I haven't had any problems since.

Here is one of my old self-portraits, can't find the Munch one, my most distrubing:

Hmm, that kind of looks like that character in the movie "Scream".

[Kate]

Rommie, this is waaaaayyyy melodramatic here. If I just read these two paragraphs, I would assume you were talking about having been raped. Look, you were talking 'nice' to the guy. Which is usually taken as flirting. The man obviously thought you were reciprocating his flirting and that his actions would be welcome.

So if I say "Good Morning!" to some narcissistic idiot and he interprets that as "Hey, wanna get a room?" and starts fondling me... it's my fault for being naive?

There's a LONG way to go from verbal flirting to "please kiss me now."

I mean OK, am unwelcome kiss isn't as physically abusive as a rape. But it's STILL emotionally invasive and violating, and I don't think it's helpful to dismiss someone's feelings just because we don't share them.

OMG, so this is the kinda stuff I can look forward to now, huh?

(takes notes)

~Kate~

[Nero]

In no situation under any circumstances does a woman ever deserve to be sexually violated.
But a kiss? Puleeeeaaase. Women around the world are screaming from the pains of rape as we speak, and you're worried about a kiss from a man you were flirting with?

Okay Nero, so next time you're concerned or upset about something in your life, my caring response will be to "suck it up, worrywart, because somewhere in the world, there is someone who's going through something worse than you." That is so much dismissive rubbish.

Btw, nobody equated what Rommie went through as analogous to rape. But it was a violation of her person just as if someone grabbed her ass or her boob. And in my 50+ years, I have seen MANY women slap, hit or scream at guys who grabbed them inappropriately. Evidently, they didn't view it as some little trifle. And you're all making an awful lot of unfounded assumptions about how much permission Rommie gave him to do that. If she says she didn't, I'm going to take her at face value. I've always found her to be a very honest person.

ciao,
Gina M.

Yeah, they slap, hit, or scream as it's happening, maybe rant about it to a lover or friend that night. But that's it. They don't go crying about it for support days after the fact, let alone online. Women get over these things. If someone is a woman and needs to live as one, they need to learn really quick to toughen up their hide. She can't obsess about 'personal space'. Slap the guy and move on.
Because it will not be the last time. You can't go out into the world as a woman without knowing how to handle yourself.

[Rachael]

lets not bring neros manhood into this, as we all know, he has more experience of natal females than most m2fs... even though he is a guy
i think hes right, women would bitchslap the bejesus out of someone who touched them inapropriately, they would probably mention it, maybe not. hey, it happens to us.... rommie isnt exactly crying for support, but i guess if a context arose, a woman would mention an example in a discussion that warrented it, online or not.
R

[melissa90299]

I empathize with Rommie, because I have had a couple of incidents myself (both since starting transition).  On time I was almost raped by a guy and another time, I had some guy come up to me and start kissing meand touching me all over.  I was SO naive at that time that I didn't know how to respond.  Particularly because I like the attention to a certain degree, but I didn't like feeling violated.  Since then, I have learned to say "no" to men and that's ok.  I've generally found that when men do things for you because you are beautiful, they *are* expecting something in return.  So be VERY careful before accepting anything from them besides manners and courtesy.  I have learned a lot in the time I have transitioned, so I haven't had any problems since.

Here is one of my old self-portraits, can't find the Munch one, my most distrubing:

Hmm, that kind of looks like that character in the movie "Scream".

Thanks, not quite as disturbing as my "munch-like" photo. Wish I could find that one.

[katia]

One of my photos was processed to evoke the above. One transwomen/art critic said my photos were distrubing. Ah-duh!

Geez, I hope I still have those old works somewhere!

Posted on: August 19, 2007, 10:31:55 AMHere is my favorite work:



Posted on: August 19, 2007, 11:45:03 AMHere is one of my old self-portraits, can't find the Munch one, my most distrubing:

disturbing?  if find them genuinely beautiful.  but i'm weird, you know? 

i see a marilyn manson's resemblance.  >  ha ha ha ha kidding!

[Nero]

Apology hat:

Rommie, yesterday's post by me may have come off preachy.

I apologize for that.

What happened to you was just as outrageous as having my own person felt of by a guy on a street. I do get your outrage and even bewilderment. I'm sure it didn't come across that way to you. I apologize. You have, as does any other woman, or man for that matter, not only a right, but a perfectly good reason to feel the way you do/did.

Fact is, that as long as we maintain double standards of behavior for men and women and a double standard in blame for incidents like this: we will continue to find fault with the victim.

It doesn't matter if you were flirting audaciously with the guy or paying him no attention at all.

YOU did not cause him to act the way he did. HE did.



Thread mod hat:

Okay guy and gals.

Rommie was given unwanted attention. I can feel her outrage at that. When it has happened to me I have hit and screamed at the man. She did not, that doesn't make her bad or unreal or any less violated.

As for bringing it up as a topic, why shouldn't she. It may be a better idea to post it as a separate topic, but that isn't what happened. She did what she did; and, now it HAS become the topic.

Along with women of all sorts and our relationships with men of all sorts. But, is the whole thing worthy of everyone getting their thongs and briefs in an uproar. Rommie didn't say when it happened. She did say she has gotten gg support on the web for how she felt. Mayube she should expect as much from us as well. 

Can we just leave each other in peace about it? Or do we have to visit anger and hurt on each other as well.

Rommie hurt or does hurt. I give her perfect credibility when it comes to relating her own feelings.

Please, let's not get personal with one another. 'K?


And, I want to thank Kate for bringing me a bit of wonderful wisdom. Thanks.
Nichole

Whatever happened, whatever the circumstances were, she's still making a mountain out of a molehill.
I apologize if this comes off as unfeeling or whatever, but we live in reality, not fantasyland.
Walking in this world as a woman is not all frills and fluff. Not all fun and games.
Women are objectified, women are sexual targets. ALL women, not just the beautiful ones. Doesn't mean it's right what happens, but it won't be the last time.


Some women should quit lamenting like some maudlin spirits, and prepare for the next time they face this kind of thing.

[Elizabeth]

I just want to say something here that may be important. I have known Rommie for over three years now. She is one of the kindest, warmest human beings I have ever known. She has selflessly given of herself to help and support many other transgendered people, myself included. When I was suicidal, she was the voice of reason making sure I contacted my therapist and got help.

It was rare for her to ever ask for support herself. She is not a whiner and I would not call her naive. She has always been a really pretty girl. At least as long as I have known her. But the life she has led has left her ill prepared to deal with the attention she is getting. Unlike someone who grew up in a girls body and have had guys checking them out since their breasts first bud, she has no such experience to fall back on. She don't know she can smack them, berate them and threaten to call authorities. How could she?

She is a gentle person and is quite sincere in what she is saying. She is not looking for attention or "whoa is me". She is learning socialization as a woman. She asked for all of your support and understanding and advice. Trust me, if she were fishing for compliments she could post pictures of herself and easily get them. Truth is, she is a pretty private person.

I know her and she is a good person, the kind of person I would be proud to have lunch with. She is very down to earth and not full of herself. It's sad for me to see people have such a skewed view of her, when I know her to be such a wonderful person.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[tinkerbell]

I just want to say something here that may be important. I have known Rommie for over three years now. She is one of the kindest, warmest human beings I have ever known. She has selflessly given of herself to help and support many other transgendered people, myself included. When I was suicidal, she was the voice of reason making sure I contacted my therapist and got help.

It was rare for her to ever ask for support herself. She is not a whiner and I would not call her naive. She has always been a really pretty girl. At least as long as I have known her. But the life she has led has left her ill prepared to deal with the attention she is getting. Unlike someone who grew up in a girls body and have had guys checking them out since their breasts first bud, she has no such experience to fall back on. She don't know she can smack them, berate them and threaten to call authorities. How could she?

She is a gentle person and is quite sincere in what she is saying. She is not looking for attention or "whoa is me". She is learning socialization as a woman. She asked for all of your support and understanding and advice. Trust me, if she were fishing for compliments she could post pictures of herself and easily get them. Truth is, she is a pretty private person.

I know her and she is a good person, the kind of person I would be proud to have lunch with. She is very down to earth and not full of herself. It's sad for me to see people have such a skewed view of her, when I know her to be such a wonderful person.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Thank you Elizabeth.  As I said I have exchanged several PM's with her, and I have also found her to be a very kind, sensitive person.  Anyhow let's just hope that this is all a misunderstanding.  I want to think it is, but.....


*hugs*

tink

[Nero]

I just want to say something here that may be important. I have known Rommie for over three years now. She is one of the kindest, warmest human beings I have ever known. She has selflessly given of herself to help and support many other transgendered people, myself included. When I was suicidal, she was the voice of reason making sure I contacted my therapist and got help.

It was rare for her to ever ask for support herself. She is not a whiner and I would not call her naive. She has always been a really pretty girl. At least as long as I have known her. But the life she has led has left her ill prepared to deal with the attention she is getting. Unlike someone who grew up in a girls body and have had guys checking them out since their breasts first bud, she has no such experience to fall back on. She don't know she can smack them, berate them and threaten to call authorities. How could she?

She is a gentle person and is quite sincere in what she is saying. She is not looking for attention or "whoa is me". She is learning socialization as a woman. She asked for all of your support and understanding and advice. Trust me, if she were fishing for compliments she could post pictures of herself and easily get them. Truth is, she is a pretty private person.

I know her and she is a good person, the kind of person I would be proud to have lunch with. She is very down to earth and not full of herself. It's sad for me to see people have such a skewed view of her, when I know her to be such a wonderful person.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Those of us who don't know her only have her posts to go on. I will always post my opinions on someone's words, not them as a person.
I feel the issue needs to be raised that transwomen need to be prepared for unwanted attention that is as normal as daily breakfast for GGs.

Posted on: August 20, 2007, 12:07:31 AMThis topic has degenerated from it's original subject and is going nowhere but in circles, for which I am partly to blame.
I was trying to make a valid point but apparently failed to deliver.

LOCKED