Passing Privilege and Guilt

[Rachael]

tbh there are male paterns of thinking and female patterns, tehy wouldnt be steriotyped if they werent FAIRLY common, this doesnt say there are no exceptions.

R

[tinkerbell]

Could I ask a huge favor from everyone?  when quoting someone, would you please name the person who posted what you quoted?  It is really a headache to go back to all the posts to see who said what.  Thanks a bunch! 

tink

[melissa90299]

Nero posted:

Whoa. I don't even know where to begin. Unwanted attention, unwanted advances, fears?
Do you honestly think that only pretty women are catcalled at, hassled, or violated?
There is no more danger in being an attractive woman than a plain woman in any of those situations. Less comely women experience sexual harrassment, hassling, unwelcome propositioning, and sexual violence the same as beautiful women. And let's not forget the high rate of violence on transwomen regardless of their passability.

A guy looking to get laid will hassle the closest female regardless of whether or not she's a supermodel. A rapist doesn't care how much of an 'attractive woman' you are, as long as you're a woman.

Attractive women are far more likely to suffer abuse from other women than men.

Why do so many transwomen seem to have such a skewed view of what it means to be a woman? Why do I hear things from some transwomen that sound more like a man's fractured view of womanhood rather than a woman's view?
And we wonder why society has such a hard time accepting us. How can they if TS women project an idealized, fantasy view of women?

Some of the stuff posted here astounds me, quite frankly. That said, I think I am going to a masectomy because now I am just constantly being hit on and ogled, I mean how much aggravation can a girl take, I am just glad that I am 59, I can't imagine the abuse I would have to endure had I done this thirty years ago.

I haven't been out much (still feeling listless) since I got back from Thailand, I feel better now but I find myself not wanting to leave the apartment. Maybe a burkha would help, I just don't know what I am going to do.

[NicholeW.]

Some of the stuff posted here astounds me, quite frankly. That said, I think I am going to a masectomy because now I am just constantly being hit on and ogled, I mean how much aggravation can a girl take, I am just glad that I am 59, I can't imagine the abuse I would have to endure had I done this thirty years ago.

I haven't been out much (still feeling listless) since I got back from Thailand, I feel better now but I find myself not wanting to leave the apartment. Maybe a burkha would help, I just don't know what I am going to do.

tbh there are male paterns of thinking and female patterns, tehy wouldnt be steriotyped if they werent FAIRLY common, this doesnt say there are no exceptions.

R

Okay, Rach. There are male and female patterns. But, there are also male and female socializations. What seemed to be being talked about was an attempt to posit the latter as the former. That is pretty difficult to digest.

The difference is a big one.

There are some, probably, very valid differences in some ways women and men think. They have more to due with ways of using intuition, depth perception, a seeming inborn attachment to either the value of agency or communion in problem solving and other areas and very likely a different direction finder in the inner ear/auditory nerve areas of control. They do not involve with whom someone shares the things that bother her.

Those sorts of behavior are most likely caused by social conditioning. Or, it could be caused by someone raised in a gender she did not id within but socialized in that gender behavior anyway. Same true of men. Most of us cannot have it both ways.

We want gender change and presume that the only valid justifications are innate, essential and hereditary differences. So, we want to make nurture no longer part of the equasion.

To make the leap that in spite of my conditioning I always naturally went with this or that seems to be begging this question: So how did you manage to do what only very few like Buddha, Jesus have done in the past and not turn out to be some incarnation of a deity?  

That is the problem there. Now, it is possible to recondition oneself, but I really do not think that how one talks about their previous conditioning and how they view that is hardwired. 

We may find that to be true one day, but it seems a bit farfetched.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nicole,

I have a friend who has a set of burkhas she is trying to sell. Bought them in 1979 when she thought she might be going to Iran to rescue hostages.

Nichole   

[Rachael]

tbh, i think your concept that some women are utterly hopless ly directionless when they suffer androgen insensitivity is rubbish, there is no direction ability linked to tesotosterone...
yes, nurture is important, but it is NOT as important as nature. belive me, im a prime example of nurture being utterly effing useless.

R

[Melissa]

I'm not talking about hardwired thinking, but rather that life is experienced differently due to GID.  Here's an example of what I mean.  I know there are exceptions (which is why I use the word 'Many'), but it demonstrates how the experience is going to be different.  This is based on what *I* have read and observed of FTMs and GGs.  In other words, it may be wrong, but this is where I'm coming from.

Breast growth
GG: Many see this as a rite of passage into woman.
FTM: Faces this with horror and sees this as a time of extreme torture because they are forced to experience changes to a body they do not want.

Wearing Dresses
GG: Many seem to have no problem with this.
FTM: Sees this as something that utterly disgusts them and causes them misery.  Unless forced, they will generally avoid dressing in feminine clothing.

Giving birth
GG: Many see this as a celebration of their womanhood and look forward to it.
FTM: This is something very few FTMs would ever consider doing.

Perhaps whether attention from men is perceived as unwanted and intimidating varies just as much with FTMs as it does for GGs.  In other words, some may find being hit on annoying, unwanted, or even intimidating (maybe the person just isn't ready for it yet) if those people are not interested in men, and it seems many FTMs are straight.


Anyhow, back to topic of the OP.  First of all, I don't mean this to sound arrogant or like I'm bragging or anything, so I tried to word it so it didn't come across that way.  If it still does, that was not my intention, nor how I feel.  I have been thinking about this and I realized I actually *do* experience at least some guilt.  I think this is perhaps one reason why I pursued trying to find out if I was IS.  At least it would provide an explanation why somebody who started transitioning at nearly 30 and has had absolutely no surgery, and is not IS passes without problem regardless of the type of people I'm around.  I've heard that teenage girls tend to be the best at spotting a TS, since they are constantly comparing themselves to other women and they are much more likely to verbalize any suspicions they may have.  Well, guess what most of the cast in the musical I'm in consists of?  That's right, plenty of teenage girls, and they have given no indication that they are perceiving me different than any other women.  Also, I have had ZERO problems with anybody since going fulltime. 

I know I have been read right at the beginning, so I certainly won't say I have always passed perfectly.  It's certainly possible that somebody may have read me as TS, but it sure seems like I'm having no problems.  So, then I read about others who are getting harassed and having plenty of problems (even hearing about problems in the area I live/work in).  Even a friend *I* thought passed really well told me she's been read at least a couple of times, so it's not like everybody is accepting or nobody ever says anything.  So when I hear about people being harassed or having problems with passing and my experience has been so much different, I guess I look for excuses (for instance, looking into being IS) so that I don't have to worry about others feeling jealous because then I can just say "I have this particular experience because of such and such, so you don't need to feel jealous."  To me, saying something like "I guess I was just lucky" just sounds like you are mocking the person.  This worry about other people's less positive experiences makes me feel bad that they can't have the same experience I do and that causes me to experience at least *some* guilt. 

[melissa90299]

tbh, i think your concept that some women are utterly hopless ly directionless when they suffer androgen insensitivity is rubbish, there is no direction ability linked to tesotosterone...
yes, nurture is important, but it is NOT as important as nature. belive me, im a prime example of nurture being utterly effing useless.

R

Actually, I just heard of a study (on TV) that the administration of Testosterone increases spatial abilities. Hormones are powerful stuff.

[Rachael]

im better at directional stuff now.... go figure

R

[SarahFaceDoom]

Honestly, the only time I really think about even the term "passing" is when I'm discussing it on message boards.  I don't pass.  I am.  And maybe that's diffrent things for diffrent people, but I've got too many other concerns.  Like making rent, getting food, having fun with friends.  I honestly don't have time to be paranoid much anymore about how others percieve me.  I think when I was just starting out the thought of calling people on the phone would have scared me.  But I mean now...I HAVE to make phone calls to get things done.

I feel like passing privilege is really just the privilege of being able to sit on your computer and obsess about it.

[Rachael]

zactly...
R

[melissa90299]

I feel like passing privilege is really just the privilege of being able to sit on your computer and obsess about it.

LOL!  > > >

[Rachael]

[tongueincheak]who would i thank for this privilage? the company that make the hrt? the doctor that prescribed it? my parents for giving me bloody good genes? god? or just me? i mean, its a privilage, it can be taken away from me if im bad, i must be thankful [/tongueincheak]

R

[Melissa]

I feel like passing privilege is really just the privilege of being able to sit on your computer and obsess about it.

Lol, yep.   That's the only time I've ever talked about it.

[Jeannette]

Privilege:  Yes
Guilt:  No

I cant give myself the luxury to feel guilty for something it's my right to have.

[melissa90299]

I was at a restaurant outside with a friend when this man approached us twice.  He was an attractive man and I was kind. I felt safe at a family restaurant.  Well, he leaned over and the rope separating us from the outside world and kissed me.  I just froze.  I thought I'd have been stronger, but I caved in.

You encourage the guy then you complain that he acted on your encouragement.  As everything, this isn't about them, it's about you. It sounds like you feed on this, quite frankly. Even at my age, I get the same kind of stuff, there are all kinds of way to discourage these clods but first you must want to discourage them. (My defense when I walk in the TL or the Mission is I listen to my i-pod.) Simply diverting your eyes works. Men are very insecure and very easy to dismiss or encourage. But you have to have the desire to discourage them.

Anyway, the guy kissed you, big frigging deal, I had a cab driver reach under my panties in Phuket and up until now I haven't even talked about it here. I mentioned it to my GG friends and what I realized I did was really stupid, I accepted a free ride form this guy, they said "well ah duh!!!" Hey, it takes time to learn this stuff, I was just out of the hospital with my new breasts and wearing a bikini top. "Ah, duh!" is right. BTW dressing down is not hiding, I suspect a lot of attractive women do this when they do not want attention. You have choices, you can be the victim or you can assertively deal with this like a woman.

Oh, the guy at work, that is sexual harassment, there are ways to deal with that.

Rommie

I wasn't born into these looks over a lifetime.  I only have a year of coping with this.

How exactly did you become such a babe overnight? and did you get a Breast Aug BTW? I noticed the boobs to men can be quite an attractor, especially overly large ones, mine are not overly large but still attract quite a bit of attention. And are you a Blonde?

[melissa90299]

You encourage the guy then you complain that he acted on your encouragement.  As everything, this isn't about them, it's about you. It sounds like you feed on this, quite frankly. Even at my age, I get the same kind of stuff, there are all kinds of way to discourage these clods but first you must want to discourage them. (My defense when I walk in the TL or the Mission is I listen to my i-pod.) Simply diverting your eyes works. Men are very insecure and very easy to dismiss or encourage. But you have to have the desire to discourage them.

There's a BIG difference between being nice to someone in an entirely non-sexual way and then having that person then turn about and do something disrespectful and invading your body and space... and, on the other hand, actually encouraging that behavior. Sorry, not the same at all.... I don't see that Rommie did anything wrong and I do see that the man who kissed you totally disrespected her person and space. Don't internalize the guilt!

Neither one of us were there and the description of what happened was vague. So neither of us know exactly how Rommie lead this guy on. When the cabdriver sexually assaulted me, did I cry all night long. No, I just laughed it off. And in the case of the cab driver, the only thing I did to encourage was accept a free ride. A really dumb thing to do as all my GG friends affirmed.

What a lot of women here need is real life socialization, that is obviously lacking in many cases.

What you've said here is completely analogous to saying "someone was asking for it" when they're assaulted.

PS I was the one assaulted, not Rommie. It's not analogous as we are discussing how to avoid getting hit on not assaulted. In my case, I won't be accepting any free rides from tuk-tuk drivers anytime soon.

Posted on: August 18, 2007, 09:37:32 PM

There's a BIG difference between being nice to someone in an entirely non-sexual way and then having that person then turn about and do something disrespectful and invading your body and space... and, on the other hand, actually encouraging that behavior. Sorry, not the same at all. What you've said here is completely analogous to saying "someone was asking for it" when they're assaulted. I don't see that Rommie did anything wrong and I do see that the man who kissed you totally disrespected her person and space. Don't internalize the guilt!

Hi Regina,

Thank you.  I didn't encourage anything.  I was just trying to let him know I wasn't interested in a polite manner.  He was an attractive and very well dressed man.  My attire was business casual, showing no skin or anything.  He was talking/hitting on my friend, I thought and so I wasn't paying attention when he leaned in and that's why it took me by surprise.

Thank you for not thinking of me as a bad person or a guilty party.  I appreciated getting the benefit of the doubt. I should get over it, but I'm not as strong as others I guess and I needed help.  Until that moment I'd never known anyone invading my space.

Why did you tell him you weren't interested if he was hitting on your friend? Anyway, perhaps you can get Paxil or Prozac to help you get over this trauma.

I am not familiar with your background, I am puzzled as to how you developed into such a babe without getting any meaningful socialization.

[Elizabeth]

What if you grew up a loner? And what if you never had much dating experience? Or even any dating experience? What if you married the first girl you could because you thought you could or would do no better? What if you never learned to flirt? What if the only unwanted attention you ever got was people bullying you? What if you thought there was no way anyone would ever want you?

Well? If all those things happened to you, you would be like me. And I don't believe it's uncommon or unrealistic to think that someone might finally let out their inner Beauty, and others would notice. That maybe accepting yourself makes you attractive to yourself and finally to others. But if you never flirted or felt attractive this could all be very scary and confusing.

Remember, most of us have been living a fake life for quite some time already. Learning to be who we really are is not always easy. I don't think Rommie was playing the "poor me" card. I would be willing to bet that plenty of T girls have had similar problems. Maybe we could just support everyone. It's hard to believe but even the snooty elitists need support and understanding, whether they admit it or not.

I do not begrudge those who are pretty any more than I would begrudge a GG for being pretty.(Bitches...lol J/K) Even if they are just bragging. There are lots of pretty girls who are still insecure about their looks for a whole variety of reasons, including unwanted attention. I don't see why T girls would be any different.

Nero, you are a typical male chauvinist pig in this regard. I have heard so many guys saying the same kinds of things over the years, about pretty girls.  Let's just say, out of their league. My daughter is very pretty and I would have never guessed the troubles a pretty girl could have, especially from the point of view I seen it as a teen. I always imagined girls like her had it made. Instead she ate her lunch in a bathroom stall everyday to avoid being treated bad, called a lesbian or threatened to be beat up by the bigger unattractive girls who held her responsible for all their problems.

Do pretty people get treated better by society? Yes. Does that mean their life is trouble free? No.

Love always,
Elizabeth

[Keira]

Tuk-Tuk drivers are notorious scammers of tourists and will scam you if your not street smart (I've been in Thailand a few times already), either driving you to a some borderlo, to a friend with a good "deal" instead of the place you want to go, etc.

After one of their scam, I took a real Taxi, a bit more expensive, but your not breathing diesel fumes and dust. Dust pollution in Bangkock before the monsoon is particularly bad, but diesel fumes are there all the time; chinese cities are 10x worse though.

[melissa90299]

Tuk-Tuk drivers are notorious scammers of tourists and will scam you if your not street smart (I've been in Thailand a few times already), either driving you to a some borderlo, to a friend with a good "deal" instead of the place you want to go, etc.

After one of their scam, I took a real Taxi, a bit more expensive, but your not breathing diesel fumes and dust. Dust pollution in Bangkock before the monsoon is particularly bad, but diesel fumes are there all the time; chinese cities are 10x worse though.

I must have turned down 100 offers from the tuk-tuk drivers, my intuition must be better than I thought. I always wondered why they were all begging to take me for a ride.

[Dorothy]

Privilege:  Yes
Guilt:  No

I cant give myself the luxury to feel guilty for something its my right to have.

same here.