Susan's Place Transgender Resources

I've heard many tales of woe from MtFs about trying to date straight men. My therapist, who has treated trans women for over 20 years says that, while she's known many trans women who successfully partner, she has never seen a relationship between a trans woman and a straight man survive the man finding out that the woman is trans. Unless he knows from the start, the news that his date/girlfriend/partner/wife is transgender has ultimately ended the relationship. This holds true whether he finds out on the first date, the wedding night, or the 20th anniversary. Sure, maybe it happens occasionally, but her point is that it is very rare.

I can imagine only two reasons why this would be. Either
(1) Men are prejudiced against trans women. They're blind to the fact that dating/loving/marrying a trans woman would be just as fulfilling/satisfying/interesting/intimate/etc. as a cis woman, or
(2) It isn't prejudice. Men are seeing clearly that there really is a difference between trans women and cis women when it comes to romance.

What do you think?

What an interesting and well thought question!

Given the profile of some of the TG models and their beauty, and the sheer good looks of many of the girls here, it can not be for lack of 'desire'.

Is it because we cannot breed? How many men would (choose to) marry a sterile cisgirl?

Which of course does not account for older men and women.

I thought I had an answer on previous male socialization, but of course that is irrelevant for men who already accept you as a partner and then find out.

My only thought at the moment is that the male psyche is quite fragile, if his friends discover 'the secret' he is seen among his peers as 'a poofter' or something and that threatens his manhood. Men never wish to be seen as anything different from the stereotype - look at their clothing regime - you have to look and act like a man. Whatever that is, even if they do not wish to.


My BF's have all been very self centered strongly opinionated men who don't care how they are perceived, and are in a social position where is does not matter. They, I think, like my brain more than my body, must do because there ain't much body to like :laugh:

Nice question!

Is it significant that the news was not shared at the outset of the relationships - is there a trust issue that helps cause the poor outcomes?

I wonder if its really a 100% rate?

Trust is a good point, but I don't think it would cause such a high rate. I know that trust is very important to me, but I think I'm far to one end of a spectrum with that.

Perhaps the hetro/gay thing is wired in really deep for many, and its very hard to overcome? Could be social or genetic, I've no idea.

Personally I'm very tolerant in my behavior towards some of these things, even when I find them disturbing. I regard the fault as mine, but I can't overcome the emotions.

Quote from: jennyfer on December 25, 2014, 08:39:01 AM
Is it significant that the news was not shared at the outset of the relationships - is there a trust issue that helps cause the poor outcomes?

I thought about that.

But in just about every other case, building a relationship involves getting to know someone, right?

You don't tell someone on the first date that you're a cancer survivor, that you had an appendix operation, that your house burned down two years ago, or any one of a thousand details about your life. You don't hear of people storming out of someone's life because they waited until the 5th date to mention that their father used to be a paratrooper. Withholding that information would not be seen as an issue of trust.

But somehow, being transgender is different. There is a sense among a lot of people that a gender transition in one's past is something we owe it to our partner to tell at the outset.

That would imply that it has in impact on the woman's suitability as a romantic interest. Make sense?

So we get back to the original question: Why?

I wouldn't think prejudice plays a part in many (perhaps most?) men...its a concern of what society, specifically their man friends and their family would think.

Dating or marrying a cancer survivor is one thing; dating an "it" is quite another. My ex's family (men and women alike) were very vocal about this before I even thought about transitioning, and my ex often said "but what will my family think? And other people (friends and strangers)?"

Peer pressure is very powerful at any age, imho.

I do wonder if the main reason is what everyone else has touched on - not *his* prejudice, but society's. Which is, unfortunately, a "real difference" between a trans and a cis woman; the trans woman comes with a bonus package of drama and bigotry that is NOT her fault but will spill over onto him anyway. (I've seen articles to this effect, that celebrities who've dated trans women get treated as freaks or perverts, for example.) Of course, the same is true for other women who are part of a minority, and it's still kind of cowardly to flee a relationship on that basis alone... especially when it's a situation where he found out later, so presumably no one else in his life knows either [yet?].

Quote from: Beth Andrea on December 25, 2014, 09:27:43 AM
I wouldn't think prejudice plays a part in many (perhaps most?) men...its a concern of what society, specifically their man friends and their family would think.

Dating or marrying a cancer survivor is one thing; dating an "it" is quite another. My ex's family (men and women alike) were very vocal about this before I even thought about transitioning, and my ex often said "but what will my family think? And other people (friends and strangers)?"

Peer pressure is very powerful at any age, imho.

I think that Beth & Cindy nailed it - it's men's fragile ego paired with society's view of us as a less than desirable choice because of our past. Men risk getting labeled as gay by their bros if they date us and being ejected from the male brotherhood, and no hetero male wants that.

I hate to relate this but it's true - I am still a member of another forum from my past life that is heavily populated by alpha male types (think gun owning, ultra conservative, macho manly men types) - I only swing by that forum occasionally to check up on a couple of old friends from that era, other than that I don't really participate there anymore. That forum is a great resource to figure out how guys think, because there is a definite pecking order and they weed out and run off weak guys really quickly (guess I fooled them  :laugh:).

There have been several threads posted there in the past regarding some of the most gorgeous trans women (such as Jenna Talackova), and other threads regarding a few trans related topics. Their opinion is that even she is less than a woman in their eyes, and anyone that dates them is gay or has a fetish and must be avoided, and that trans issues are repugnant in general and that being trans is a choice.

These are the headwinds that we face when trying to find a guy - this uber male/avoiding-the-gay/peer pressure thing is very, very embedded in men.

It takes a special man (or woman) to be secure enough in themselves to be able to look past our history and see the actual person that we are. The trick is in finding those people.

I think it has more to do with fear. "If I date a trans woman what does that make me".

My 2 cents here.
I was a straight one, just slightly bi.
Now I am more a lesbian, to MTF post op women mostly.
/Tho I never met such one special yet/.
I just want 100% passability like me and orgasm-poss vagina like mine.

About men. Too many just stupid and unpleasant jerks.
But.. As we all read, many of American post op women of previous decades are/were happily married to straight men!! So why not now the same thing?!
It's weird..

I agree with White Rabbit; fear is tantamount in this prejudice, as is misogyny.  Julia Serano says quite insightfully in her book Whipping Girl that the root of much of the transphobia in the world is classical misogyny because the very thought of someone "stooping to the level of" a woman willingly is very damaging to everything our culture teaches about men and women, and on a subconscious level it scares the, er, hebe-jebies about of them.  Also, since men still are taught in a subtle way that they are entitled to women, therefore they see fit to dictate our gender, calling in invalid.  This is what she says, though of course not in such deliberate terms.  Nobody intentionally partakes in any of this; it's a good book and worth reading.

Part of it is also internalized homophobia, and unfair cultural attitudes-most men  are afraid of being seen as gay, and therefore won't date a trans woman.  I've dated several straight guys before (both knew I was trans from the start, but didn't know if I had had "the surgery" so I highly doubt it was a kink for either of them), and both of them seemed to be incredibly accepting of gay people, more so than most cis males I've met.  I think that plays a part in their willingness to date a trans woman: They aren't afraid to be called gay.  They are secure enough in their own sexualities, and aware enough of their own identities that they don't care.  I still don't pass one hundred percent of the time, so finding someone who isn't afraid is key.

I thought there were plenty of straight guys out there "accepting" of transwomen...certainly some are very genuine but the rest are supposedly ->-bleeped-<-s. What is the difference? Presumably it is that the ->-bleeped-<- is interested in us (primarily or only) because we are trans? And yeah, I can see why most transwomen wouldn't be interested in that kind of fetishised/objectifying relationship.

As for the majority of straight guys I don't think a single answer fits all. I imagine it is complex, involving a mix of issues around social attitudes, perceptions of masculinity, personal prejudice, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny and male ego. Sadly we're still not seen as "real" women by the vast majority of society, the fact that we were merely born with a birth defect is all they need to know to write us off as "fakes". For straight men, the revelation that their woman once had (or still has) a penis means, they believe, that their own sexuality is called into question. "Are they really gay?" "Is their woman partner a "gay man in disguise"?" I'm only surmising but that's my take on it.

I wonder if the same issue exists for trans guys and straight women.

At any rate, I'm still primarily only interested in women, but I presume there are cis lesbians who have a similar prejudice against trans women??

I would say it's a part of category a and b.  There are common features on transwomen that some guys may not be attracted to, including the obvious one.   Even though it hurts to know that very few men could ever find someone like me attractive,  i don't think that makes them bigots.  It just hurts.  As for the ones who are all into a girl until they discover,  most of those people are operating on homophobia and transphobic views.  If that is the only reason they don't want to be with one of us, then it's because of transphobia.   And I'm not saying they are bad people either.   I get that there is a lot of social stigma in dating a transexual.   It just sucks that there is as we deserve to find love just like any other person. But i get why people judge for this reason.   Hell,  I've had to deal with internalized transphobia myself, so I can't expect a cis guy to be more understanding about my situation tHan I have been on myself.   And I'm not saying it's right that it turns out that way,  just that I understand why it often is.

Quote from: Eva Marie on December 25, 2014, 11:51:57 AM
I think that Beth & Cindy nailed it - it's men's fragile ego paired with society's view of us as a less than desirable choice because of our past. Men risk getting labeled as gay by their bros if they date us and being ejected from the male brotherhood, and no hetero male wants that.

I hate to relate this but it's true - I am still a member of another forum from my past life that is heavily populated by alpha male types (think gun owning, ultra conservative, macho manly men types) - I only swing by that forum occasionally to check up on a couple of old friends from that era, other than that I don't really participate there anymore. That forum is a great resource to figure out how guys think, because there is a definite pecking order and they weed out and run off weak guys really quickly (guess I fooled them  :laugh:).

There have been several threads posted there in the past regarding some of the most gorgeous trans women (such as Jenna Talackova), and other threads regarding a few trans related topics. Their opinion is that even she is less than a woman in their eyes, and anyone that dates them is gay or has a fetish and must be avoided, and that trans issues are repugnant in general and that being trans is a choice.

These are the headwinds that we face when trying to find a guy - this uber male/avoiding-the-gay/peer pressure thing is very, very embedded in men.

It takes a special man (or woman) to be secure enough in themselves to be able to look past our history and see the actual person that we are. The trick is in finding those people.

Everyone's favorite EBR forum?  ;) I also spent some time on there, until 4-5 years ago.

3 men have already proved this to me already. Guys just want to F#$%! it always comes down to sex. If you dont have a vag, you're not worth the time. Even an FtM proved it to me.

This really is a complex one, and nothing we as transwomen can do or say will fully mitigate the risks of some future rejection by a guy. 

Suzi, your question is thoughtful, but permit me to recast it a little, if I may...

Most men are fairly traditional in what they want from a partner. Companionship, sex, bragging rights to their friends.  You can understand that the disclosure of one's trans status would knock all but a very few who have a more open gender and orientation schema. 

But I truly don't believe we are looking for a needle in a haystack here.  Many of us in our 30s, 40s, or beyond have exactly the same trouble as our cis sisters.  I have a bunch of great girlfriends, smart professional women, all of them, and we are all single.  Certainly part of the issue is that the pool of available men is quite small for us, but it's also that a lot of the stuff out there is totally and utterly underwhelming!  And we know it. 

Another thing I want to add, which is also related to those of us in our 30s and beyond is the nature of love and attraction.  Someone once mentioned to me that when you get married before your 30s its for love; afterwards it becomes more of a business relationship.  Cynical perhaps, but there is some truth in it.

So, all considered, as a way of dealing with this issue practically, my feeling is that most men I meet won't even get past the first date. A tiny number will reach the second date.  I don't want to waste time trying to win over the wrong guy: by date 3 he gets to know the news, and if it's hasta luego I haven't wasted much time.   My cis girlfriends do pretty much the same thing.

We should worry less.

Hugs to my dear sisters
Julia

Quote from: Beth Andrea on December 25, 2014, 02:36:23 PM
Everyone's favorite EBR forum?  ;) I also spent some time on there, until 4-5 years ago.

You were pretty close - it's a local car social/car racing/illegal street racing related forum in a city I used to live in. I used to be heavily involved in the car scene, and being a local site people could and would get together periodically (and fist fights would likely ensue :laugh:). It was as close to male bonding as I ever got - I was accepted because of my knowledge of cars and racing but I never felt enough like a guy to be comfortable around everyone else.

Quote from: Ms Grace on December 25, 2014, 01:54:38 PM
At any rate, I'm still primarily only interested in women, but I presume there are cis lesbians who have a similar prejudice against trans women??

Yes, there are cis lesbians with a similar prejudice.. Sadly for those of us over 30ish, it seems to be the older women who are more likely to have an issue.. I will also admit that I will take 'You have a penis.' as an acceptable rejection.. Rejecting me simply for being trans? That's going to cause me to say something..

Even younger cis lesbians won't even consider dating a trans girl :/

And, it's a lot harder to pass to a queer girl and then convince her to hang around once she finds out.

the only answer I have is ; why does it have to be a straight man ? A male body is a male body. A male mind is a male mind no matter where on the spectrum they fall. Your kind of putting yourself in an unnecessary corner by defining a lover as a heterosexual straight male who by definition only wants cis female partners As to why heterosexual males don't want people who elect to live opposite their birth gender  it's the way I grew up , the society and community I was raised in , grade school, high school ,college, work force why expect it to be different. Society is changing , but there is such a long road to travel .

This is off topic, I just have to say andrognouspainter26, you look gorgeous! I have been following certain topics around and I remember a thread discussing passability and to me you are more than passable - you are beautiful babe.

Now to this thread, I agree to what Julia said about the traditional view of most men. It is a sad reality.
LOL - I am even joking to one of good cis female friends that I am starting to be a man hater. I see them as p_gs.
Sorry I mean no offense.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 25, 2014, 08:33:48 PM
Even younger cis lesbians won't even consider dating a trans girl :/

And, it's a lot harder to pass to a queer girl and then convince her to hang around once she finds out.

Awwww, thank you :D
It's a more recent development, but I guess at the two year mark hormones have finally started doing the thing.

I think it is likely that they just feel uncomfortable with the concept that gender is something that isn't that simple. Knowing someone is trans makes them confront this, and seems to really hit on lots of insecurities, especially with straight men, but with all cisgendered people.

I haven't had nearly the difficulty in finding a partner as I thought I would, granted I am a lesbian, so I haven't looked for a straight man.

In my case, I am infamous among my friends for always saying no whenever I am asked out.  I don't think I've ever said yes in my entire life.  So disclosure and dating are non issues for me because I'm just not interested.  And that fact may greatly impact my opinion.  But it seems to me that all three of the options in the survey apply.  Yes, it's prejudice.  Yes, there are differences.  And yes, there are other things entirely. 

Prejudice
======

When you say "transgender" to people, many people think of men walking around in dresses.  They don't understand the difference.  What matters to them is that they think a transgender woman is a guy.  And they aren't interested in dating a guy. 

People often believe that transgender people are mentally unstable or defective in some way.  Who wants to date someone like that? 

People often believe that trans women are sex workers and fetishists.  There have been issues with dating sites kicking off identified trans women and giving fetishism as an explanation (that's right, match.com, I'm looking at you).

And as has been pointed out by another poster, dating a trans* person means getting hit by some transphobic prejudice oneself.

Differences
=======

There are often physical gender nonconformities.  For example, height.  Guys often don't seem to like dating someone taller than them.  Or voices.  A lot of people find a deep voice coming from a person who looks female to be very jarring and disconcerting and a lot of trans women do have deeper voices.

And there's behavior too.  Old habits die hard for most trans women.  For example, a couple of months ago I was at a trans* group meeting.  Two trans women arrived at the same time as I did.  One got to the door first and opened it, then turned to the other two of us and said "after you, ladies."  The second one turned to me and motioned me to go on in.  Then when we got in, there were not enough seats.  A trans woman went and got me a chair, carried it in, and unfolded it for me.  Then at the end of the meeting, I started to put the chair back (I saw where it came from) but yet another trans woman took it away from me and put it away for me.  This interaction was a little bit jarring and confusing for me because it felt--with apologies, and for lack of a better word--gentlemanly.  Even though it was women involved.  Like I said, old habits die hard and most people have some left over ones. 

Dating roles are very gendered.  So imagine how jarring it could be if you're visibly accustomed to playing the role that the other person is trying to play.  And imagine if the other person is unaccustomed to dealing with people who are adjusting to a different gender role. 

Other things
========

People are very hung up on labels.  If you believe that trans women are men (see above under prejudice) then what does it mean for you if you are attracted to one?  Does that make you gay?  It's amazing how many people ask that.  And how upset they are about it.

And there's also the fact that people do sometimes want genetic children.  So they won't date anyone who is sterile, whether cis or trans*. 

And there's also the reality of different strokes for different folks.  A lot of people may be attracted to blondes, but not brunettes.  And they may be attracted to cis women but not trans women.

We also have a habit of stigmatizing people who are attracted to trans* women too.  It seems like a lot of trans women automatically label anyone attracted to them as a ->-bleeped-<-.  Even the ones who don't go all fetishistic.  It's like trans women think poorly of anyone who might find them attractive.  And that's a shame. 

And of course, the reality that if you are older, then guys tend to lose interest.

=============

All in all, things may look depressing for a lot of trans* people looking for love in cisgender places  Many do end up in relationships with other trans* people.

But there is hope.  Things seem to improve the younger people get.  And my best trans* friend had one of the most loving relationships I've ever seen with a cisguy.  They are both in their 60s, so not exactly young.  So there are people out there even in older demographics.  There is love to be found.  You just have to keep digging. 

Being trans* adds some extra difficulties.  But the need to keep digging for a long time is not unique to trans* people.  I think that's how it is for most people.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on December 25, 2014, 08:33:48 PM
Even younger cis lesbians won't even consider dating a trans girl :/

And, it's a lot harder to pass to a queer girl and then convince her to hang around once she finds out.

I just had 5 under-30's women over for dinner.. I've dated 2 and slept with another 2.. One of them was Christmas Eve. The 5th was the token straight woman.

Quote from: kelly_aus on December 26, 2014, 05:22:48 AM
I just had 5 under-30's women over for dinner.. I've dated 2 and slept with another 2.. One of them was Christmas Eve. The 5th was the token straight woman.

I could imagine it would be awkward for me

Freely acknowledging that this is speculation regarding billions of people, I tend to agree with my sisters that fear is a major component.   The insecurity and intangible sense of gender being fluid bothers plenty of people, including some of us who are transgender.  I feel that gender fluidity is part of what I represent to some of my friends and acquaintances.  If I could change so much how vulnerable are they?  How fragile is that ego and their sense of order in the universe?  Is being transgender catchy?  ;)

We turn some peoples perceptions on their heads.  I have had friends and complete strangers, men and women, come up and let me know they were no longer attracted to me now that my truth is out there.  I am not in the dating pool but is does seem to be considerably smaller.  It makes those seemingly rare guys and romances even more valuable eh?

probably also depends on what part of the world you live in.  and what culture you are a part of.  and the kinds of guys you decide to include in your own personal circle.  if you soround yourself with people that are kind and accepting, your more likely to attract more guys/girls that are also kind and accepting.

there are alot of guys out there who would be accepting, and are non judgemental, just, they dont tend to advertise themselves.

just because someone isnt coming up to you to hit on you, or try to ask you out repeadedly, doesnt mean that the person isnt attracted or interested in you. 

or if someone decides they arent, it might not always be because of being trans.

there are people out there who would just want you to be you.  and if you are genuine and they love who you are, then it wont matter to them.

I think the base issue is the boner.  Men's arousal mechanisms are notoriously fragile with impotence being the biggest fear men have in regards to sex.  The question pre-supposes that the man is told or learns their partner is trans.  I have seen that if there is no disclosure, there can be strong attraction physically and mentally, but that can evaporate once the male knows their woman's status/history.  The first place that seems to manifest is in performance issues for the man, which is a downhill snowball type event.

The reason might also be due to the re-categorization from partner to 'bottom'.  In our society, bottom is the lowest place in the male pecking order, no pun intended, while women are along-side that pecking order.  Shifting us from one category to another serves to put us far below in the pecking order, and at the same time introduce doubt into the attraction equation.

I have no uterus and no chance of having kids. Yes that matters. That alone wipes out a good 65% of straight males as dating aspects, being afraid of the appearance of a relationship another 20%, actual prejudice another ten percent or so, that leaves 5% of the dating pool left, so in short it's rare to marry a straight male. Dates and friends are a different matter.
I consider myself bisexual, with a history with women. My current lesbian relationship has exceeded two years now, though we are not yet engaged.

I wish I could date someone solely on their personality and not how they look, but I need that femininity. As a result, I've seen a lot of cis-girl butch lesbians I wouldn't even consider because they are too masculine for my tastes. There are some trans girls I would date and there are some I wouldn't. I wouldn't even date myself at this stage in my journey. I'm hoping this might change, but currently that's the way it is for me.

I've already come a long way though. 6ish months ago I don't think I could have dated anyone that was transgender post-op or not and feminine or not.

Are you talking of non-passable pre-ops, passable pre-ops, or post-ops? All 3 are viewed very differently by straight men.

Quote from: Evolving Beauty on December 29, 2014, 12:52:51 PM
Are you talking of non-passable pre-ops, passable pre-ops, or post-ops? All 3 are viewed very differently by straight men.

I think passable post-ops and non-passable post-ops also are viewed very differently from one another.

I think it comes to a basic culmination of factors. Of course I wish this wasn't true but such is life/reality.

Boys/girls are taught at a very young age that we socialize with in groups and some people are just outcasts of any group. Those outcasts are either viewed as a novelty/fetish or as a thing to stay away from. I know this is a generalization but think about it who liked the nerds in school or the geeks only the other nerds and geeks and possibly a very few of the social elite such as the jocks and beauty queens.

Since we all learn this order of things from our peers really as well as socialization from elders it becomes so ingrained into society that most will not even think or consider the outcasts.

By the way was a geek outcast in high school and of course being transgendered and 6 ft bulky I would take a guess I will be even more of an outcast.

All that being said there is a chance of course but really the one thing I can think of growing up was ha ha ha look at the sissy as the worst put down ever. So there are not many open minded people in general therefor you get what we have today. It is changing such as with gays but it will be slooow as people do not like change because that causes fear and nobody wants that.

I am a realist and at my age (43) I have to think that there is hope but not a lot. I also live in a redneck part of the world then again in alberta, Canada its full of rig pigs (like hill billies) yet its also a lot more liberal in views on LGBT then a lot of places in Canada. So as you see there is some hope in the strangest places since it doesn't make sense to have liberal views on LGBT when the place you speak of pertains to typical hyper masculine attitudes.

I know I have rambled a bit here but I think in general society grows slow because we don't want change only those with open minds which are very few progress society as a whole. Those very few people tend to be more on the eccentric, artistic, scientific in general the more intelligent part of society. Since a majority of the people are either not to bright or simply don't care that much and just want to simply follow they fear those that are creating changes which are also on the open minded faction if you will. So we progress slowly little by little the few are stronger (in mind) to push for change and part of that change would be view people not solely on what they perceive but what they know.

I think I went sort of off topic but sort of not sorry about the long winded generalizations.

There is always hope somewhere:)

I'm very torn between the first two options. On one hand, yes some are just prejudiced. If he's not thoroughly devoted to you, it's easier for prejudice to potentially win him over since he has less faith in you and therefore less to lose from attachment; either that, or if he's bi- to any degree, he may see you as something other than female, which IMO is equally as degrading. Before surgery I just couldn't imagine anyone accepting me as female in a sexual encounter if I did not fit the physiological concept of female. So surgery and meaningful emotional connection are absolutely the factors that have potential in your favor should this be an issue.

On the other hand, yes, some men really are not a good match. Some want their own biological children, for instance, and unless becoming close to you deeply changes his outlook on life or something, they will remain a bad match. This is a meaningful difference, but I wouldn't draw it as a gender-based difference. There are women who for various genetic, congenital, or injurious reasons simply cannot have children. I count myself among them. Sometimes if a man's love for you is deep enough, that reality may be one he can accept and live with.

Thanks to all who responded. While most people seemed to think it was prejudice, I also found it helpful to see the perspective that for men, it is important what their peers think about them, and dating a trans woman might make them appear less successful in the eyes of their friends and associates.

Perhaps I'm lucky but I've had no trouble finding straight men that wanted to date me and I make no effort to hide the fact that I'm trans.

In fact I've been overwhelmed and had to learn how to let guys down without hurting their feelings.

In all honestly (and this is brutally honest) I think a big factor is how one fairs in the genetic lottery, straight guys don't mind dating a trans girl if all their friends think she is good looking. This is no different than what CIS people have to deal with every day but we have a further disadvantage. We have to work twice as hard, be it at makeup, exercising, eating right, our voice and everything else.

In order for a straight guy to pick a trans woman over a cis woman the trans woman really does need to be better in some way and unfortunately personality is not rated very highly today.

Antonia, I second that.  We don't like talking about these things, but the fact is that a huge factor is just wether or not a trans woman is pretty and passable.  If you don't look the way an attractive woman "should", chances are you are going to die alone.  Sadly, not all of us can be as stunning as you are :(

I think another part of it is how one presents-I may look pretty good with the radical queer haircut, but not many people find it approachable/people tend to assume I only date women.  I think being exceptionally feminine is important, sadly, if you're looking to date men.  I've found that the cis men I have dated are all attracted to femininity, and I felt obligated to cross my legs a bit more tightly, and raise my voice just a bit higher than usual. Still, I can't claim to know what it feels like to be overwhelmed with attention; honestly, I'm really jealous of you.  You're absolutely right that for the most part it's just down to luck, and it just feels so unfair that so many of us will have to go through life alone because we weren't so lucky :'(  I wonder, if we all had known just how hard it would be to find love, would we have transitioned?  I'm not so sure I would have.

I view it as a simple matter of cowardice.

Quote from: Evolving Beauty on December 29, 2014, 12:52:51 PM
Are you talking of non-passable pre-ops, passable pre-ops, or post-ops? All 3 are viewed very differently by straight men.

This is definitely true too.  Early on in transition I had a very difficult time finding men who actually wanted to *date* me, but these days I shatter hearts left and right.  :icon_chick:

I dipped a toe in the dating scene recently and I am still disappointed. There are a lot of men out there who label themselves as straight but in reality have had a previous experience with transgender person (via escorting or casual hook-ups - did not ask). They dont really seem to care or wish to learn - they just seem to have some sort of fixation or idea that they want an open kind of relationship with someone who is transgender. And it grinds down to sex and only. They might use nice words and phrases, but there is one essential thing they dont seem to comprehend - most of us have spent a lot of time around men, we know what motivates them, how they think and what they would do to get that score. I dunno if those tricks would work on genetic woman (I suspect not), but sometimes I am really dissapointed  about the lack of effort which those guys are putting out - or maybe they have failed with GGs and know think that they might have some luck with transgender? :D

And to counterbalance this negativity, I must state that there are nice transgender attracted people out there, and I have met at least one of them, except it seems that we are drawn to each other just as strong as we are probably scared of each other :D.

I think you are beating yourself up way more than you should, I think you are quite beautiful and you have a style that is unique to you and not afraid to express yourself the way you want which is more than can be said about most. You are right that most guys want very feminine girls, hence we put on the pantihose, heels and makeup which we then promptly tear off once we get home and this goes for all girls (most of us also fart, burp and pick our noses when nobody is watching)

I was in a long term relationship with the love of my life at the start of my transition, now we have split up largely due to me transitioning and her liking boys and not girls.
I would still transition, I would still chose this path.

Quote from: androgynouspainter26 on January 19, 2015, 11:23:01 PM
Antonia, I second that.  We don't like talking about these things, but the fact is that a huge factor is just wether or not a trans woman is pretty and passable.  If you don't look the way an attractive woman "should", chances are you are going to die alone.  Sadly, not all of us can be as stunning as you are :(

I think another part of it is how one presents-I may look pretty good with the radical queer haircut, but not many people find it approachable/people tend to assume I only date women.  I think being exceptionally feminine is important, sadly, if you're looking to date men.  I've found that the cis men I have dated are all attracted to femininity, and I felt obligated to cross my legs a bit more tightly, and raise my voice just a bit higher than usual. Still, I can't claim to know what it feels like to be overwhelmed with attention; honestly, I'm really jealous of you.  You're absolutely right that for the most part it's just down to luck, and it just feels so unfair that so many of us will have to go through life alone because we weren't so lucky :'(  I wonder, if we all had known just how hard it would be to find love, would we have transitioned?  I'm not so sure I would have.

Since I began in 2009, I have been with thousands of men and let me share by my personal experience and of my many of other transsexual friends what MAJORITY of straight men think and have told me personally and to my friends:

This is they have been telling on the different stages...

1. Non-Passable Pre-Op: "OMG you're a man with boobs"
2. Passable Pre-Op: "You're good-looking but that d*ck down there is a major turn off"
3. Non-Passable Post-Op: "You're an 'operated' man, you're just a man with an inverted d*ck."
4. Passable Post-Op: "You're very pretty but I'm not sure cos you were a man before, your chrosomes is YY, you can't produce babies, I'm not sure if I'd do it with you or not. Oh ->-bleeped-<- it, this would make me feel gay. Sorry for all your efforts dude but to me you're still a man"

There are 3 types of straight men:
1.Liberal straight men: They accept you as you are as they view the WOMAN IN YOUR SOUL.
2.Moderate straight men: They will accept you ONLY if you are post-op
3.Strict straight men: You can be the most beautiful and passable ->-bleeped-<- in the world but to them you will be ALWAYS A MAN COS YOU BORN ONE.

Unfortunately MAJORITY of straight ARE in the category 3 type. And don't even think of telling them or either they will dump you quietly or you end up in hospital. I generally read their DEGREE of 'straightness' by their FACE, VIBES and BODY LANGUAGE. The category 3 are hyper macho and hardcore pussy-munchers, they have an aggressive alpha-male stance. The category 1 have a 'softer' and more romantic presence but of course this is very general what I am saying, they vary differently. BUT OVERALL YOU NEED TO BE SURE WHAT TYPE HE IS BEFORE YOU SPEAK OUT OR NOT. Category 1 yes, category 2 yes if you're post op, category 3 either you take the mad risk stealthing till he discovers(either he will dump you or smash you off) or simply avoid them.

EV details some of the characteristics she notes from experience.  These are further reasons why it is so difficult for us when our acceptance is up to others. 

An interesting post with some information:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,181796.msg1610784.html#msg1610784