Last Wednesday I had "Open Feminization Laryngoplasty Crico-Thyroid Approximation CTA" surgery through Dr.Haben, and I was hoping to share my experience and results with everyone.
First of all i had a really good trip, I flew out with my best friend, It was the first time either of us had been on a plane by ourselves, and I wore a face mask the whole time because my friend was sick. People were staring at me like I had some horrible disease, so that was interesting! On Tuesday the day of my consultation I met with Dr.Haben and we talked about the operation, then he shoved a camera down my throat after spraying nasty medicine in my mouth. He had me speak while holding my tongue with the camera in my mouth, which was very hard haha. He said "I was a good candidate for the surgery", and explained very clearly what I should expect as my result. I thought he was a nice guy and felt confident in his abilities.
After my consultation i met a very nice lady in the lobby, lets call her V. She was having an endoscopic glottoplasty done the next day, we shared a cab ride back to the hotel where we were staying. My friend, V and I ended up going to a restaurant called Kobe, which was a Japanese Steakhouse. It was my second time eating sushi so V helped me pick something i would like haha. After eating we went back to the hotel and talked about transition and life. It was really neat to have met V, Shes the only woman I know that is further in transition than me. So I was able to learn and just hear about her life, it was cool :).
On the day of surgery I was picked up at the hotel early in the morning and went to the Unity hospital. My friend and I sat in the waiting room for around an hour before being called back to the surgery area. Once I got called back I was put on an IV and given a warm blanket thing. After a little waiting the anesthesiologist came back to ask me questions, he was very nice and friendly. pretty soon Dr.Haben came over and asked if i had any questions, I asked in the future do i need to tell anesthesiologist to be careful because of my surgery, and he said "no"(I saw someone ask that question in a thread on here so there ya go).
I don't remember anything after that before i woke up. Once I woke up my throat hurt really bad, it was late afternoon which was weird because i went into surgery around 9. My friend was there to comfort me and helped me with everything. I was able to drink fine, but I had an issue where i was swallowing air and it made me very sick, I couldn't burp and it ended up making me throw up on myself... it was really lame. After that I was hurting really bad, it made me cry and I never cry from pain. It was the most pain I had ever been in. It sucked lol... After sitting in the hospital for a long time i was given some pain meds by the anesthesiologist and that helped soooo much. I was able to go back to the hotel and my friend got me ice cream. V ended up coming over after her surgery to visit, we chatted for a bit with text to speech on our phones, it was pretty funny. She was doing very well and said it was her easiest surgery!
On Thursday the post op consultation day, my pain level was a lot better than right after surgery. I visited Dr.Habens office again. He told me that he had to clean up a lot of scar tissue from my previous trachea shave. So maybe that's why it hurt so much? He put his camera in my throat again, and was pleased with the results and said "it will heal fine if you follow the post op instructions". Once my friend and I left, we went to Panera bread, I had potato soup and a strawberry smoothie, they felt good on my throat. On Friday we flew back to my home state and that went just fine, i was a little sore but it was fine.
Since this turned into a wall of text i'll be short with the rest. Recovery has been fairly easy, manageable pain that only really hurts when I yawn or look up. Yawning hurts a bunch haha, and for some reason i'm yawning all the time!!! The hardest thing has been not talking, I thought that was going to be easy, but it ended up being really frustrating to not be able to respond to people that were talking to me. I had dreams about talking and was scared in my dreams that i messed up my voice.
Today I was allowed to start talking so I recorded a little voice clip to share. I'm so happy to be able to talk again, i think i talked a little too much today. I also had my stitches taken out , and my PCP said everything looks good and that Dr.Haben hid the incision very well.
I'll update every week with new voice clips to share my results. Feel free to ask questions if you have any.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1HrusqPEuM8 (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1HrusqPEuM8) -- "default" voice pre op.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0BOHLOc2y3q (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0BOHLOc2y3q) -- my voice pre op.
http://i.imgur.com/rDvCjwQ.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/rDvCjwQ.jpg) -- before and after picture
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Yf0RJjgsHh (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Yf0RJjgsHh) -- 8 days post op.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jP18LiHW6q (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jP18LiHW6q) -- 2 weeks post op
I noticed other peoples vocaroo files disappearing, so here's a mirror of all files in case they do that...
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0)
Quote from: HouseHippo on May 22, 2015, 01:15:53 AM
Last Wednesday I had "Open Feminization Laryngoplasty Crico-Thyroid Approximation CTA" surgery through Dr.Haben, and I was hoping to share my experience and results with everyone.
First of all i had a really good trip, I flew out with my best friend, It was the first time either of us had been on a plane by ourselves, and I wore a face mask the whole time because my friend was sick. People were staring at me like I had some horrible disease, so that was interesting! On Tuesday the day of my consultation I met with Dr.Haben and we talked about the operation, then he shoved a camera down my throat after spraying nasty medicine in my mouth. He had me speak while holding my tongue with the camera in my mouth, which was very hard haha. He said "I was a good candidate for the surgery", and explained very clearly what I should expect as my result. I thought he was a nice guy and felt confident in his abilities.
After my consultation i met a very nice lady in the lobby, lets call her V. She was having an endoscopic glottoplasty done the next day, we shared a cab ride back to the hotel where we were staying. My friend, V and I ended up going to a restaurant called Kobe, which was a Japanese Steakhouse. It was my second time eating sushi so V helped me pick something i would like haha. After eating we went back to the hotel and talked about transition and life. It was really neat to have met V, Shes the only woman I know that is further in transition than me. So I was able to learn and just hear about her life, it was cool :).
On the day of surgery I was picked up at the hotel early in the morning and went to the Unity hospital. My friend and I sat in the waiting room for around an hour before being called back to the surgery area. Once I got called back I was put on an IV and given a warm blanket thing. After a little waiting the anesthesiologist came back to ask me questions, he was very nice and friendly. pretty soon Dr.Haben came over and asked if i had any questions, I asked in the future do i need to tell anesthesiologist to be careful because of my surgery, and he said "no"(I saw someone ask that question in a thread on here so there ya go).
I don't remember anything after that before i woke up. Once I woke up my throat hurt really bad, it was late afternoon which was weird because i went into surgery around 9. My friend was there to comfort me and helped me with everything. I was able to drink fine, but I had an issue where i was swallowing air and it made me very sick, I couldn't burp and it ended up making me throw up on myself... it was really lame. After that I was hurting really bad, it made me cry and I never cry from pain. It was the most pain I had ever been in. It sucked lol... After sitting in the hospital for a long time i was given some pain meds by the anesthesiologist and that helped soooo much. I was able to go back to the hotel and my friend got me ice cream. V ended up coming over after her surgery to visit, we chatted for a bit with text to speech on our phones, it was pretty funny. She was doing very well and said it was her easiest surgery!
On Thursday the post op consultation day, my pain level was a lot better than right after surgery. I visited Dr.Habens office again. He told me that he had to clean up a lot of scar tissue from my previous trachea shave. So maybe that's why it hurt so much? He put his camera in my throat again, and was pleased with the results and said "it will heal fine if you follow the post op instructions". Once my friend and I left, we went to Panera bread, I had potato soup and a strawberry smoothie, they felt good on my throat. On Friday we flew back to my home state and that went just fine, i was a little sore but it was fine.
Since this turned into a wall of text i'll be short with the rest. Recovery has been fairly easy, manageable pain that only really hurts when I yawn or look up. Yawning hurts a bunch haha, and for some reason i'm yawning all the time!!! The hardest thing has been not talking, I thought that was going to be easy, but it ended up being really frustrating to not be able to respond to people that were talking to me. I had dreams about talking and was scared in my dreams that i messed up my voice.
Today I was allowed to start talking so I recorded a little voice clip to share. I'm so happy to be able to talk again, i think i talked a little too much today. I also had my stitches taken out , and my PCP said everything looks good and that Dr.Haben hid the incision very well.
I'll update every week with new voice clips to share my results. Feel free to ask questions if you have any.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1HrusqPEuM8 (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1HrusqPEuM8) -- "default" voice pre op.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s0BOHLOc2y3q (http://vocaroo.com/i/s0BOHLOc2y3q) -- my voice pre op.
http://i.imgur.com/rDvCjwQ.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/rDvCjwQ.jpg) -- before and after picture
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Yf0RJjgsHh (http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Yf0RJjgsHh) -- 8 days post op.
I noticed other peoples vocaroo files disappearing, so here's a mirror of all files in case they do that...
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0)
Wow, thanks for sharing your experience! The pitch increase isn't so noticeable yet but that will come in time. Even though you are still a little weak, I can already hear a huge improvement in timbre and that's without you even trying so I think your final outcome will be great!
Congratulations on your surgery..:-) Regarding intubation in future surgeries. It may or may not be a problem, but I would definitely make the anaesthesiast aware of your vocal surgery. It's not a big deal in a planned surgery, but in an emergency operation I'd get them to use the smallest intubation tubes they have. I'd got the chance to experience this first hand, and it's not risk free.
Quote from: kwala on May 22, 2015, 04:55:13 PM
Wow, thanks for sharing your experience! The pitch increase isn't so noticeable yet but that will come in time. Even though you are still a little weak, I can already hear a huge improvement in timbre and that's without you even trying so I think your final outcome will be great!
My pitch was higher earlier in the day, but I over used my voice because I was excited to talk again. So I decided just not to talk for another week. :\
Quote from: thegreenrabbit on May 23, 2015, 12:49:50 PM
Congratulations on your surgery..:-) Regarding intubation in future surgeries. It may or may not be a problem, but I would definitely make the anaesthesiast aware of your vocal surgery. It's not a big deal in a planned surgery, but in an emergency operation I'd get them to use the smallest intubation tubes they have. I'd got the chance to experience this first hand, and it's not risk free.
I will definitely keep that in mind, I guess it doesn't hurt to inform the anesthesiologist :).
Thanks for both of your replies.
Congrats on your surgery and thank you so much for sharing your experience. I have been seriously considering Dr. Haben, his results seem very good and it would be so much easier to travel within the country.
Quote from: Starfire on May 23, 2015, 09:34:33 PM
Congrats on your surgery and thank you so much for sharing your experience. I have been seriously considering Dr. Haben, his results seem very good and it would be so much easier to travel within the country.
Thanks I am really happy I was able to have this surgery done, and you're welcome :) I really wanted to contribute to there being more information out there so its not as much of a shot in the dark when deciding to do this surgery. I really liked Dr.Haben and him being in country was a huge bonus. Hopefully I end up loving my voice :), we will see.
Congrats again! And thank you so much for sharing! I hope your results are stellar. :) I'll be watching this space over the next couple weeks to see how your voice shapes up. :) I bet it'll be great and super easy to get to the sound you like!
I'm going to follow this thread with great interest since Dr. Haben has gone to the top of my list!
I have several things to consider before making a decision but so far I am very impressed with Dr Haben and he is on the top of my list. Don't expect an original voice from me because after around 35 years of not using it, I don't think I can find it again. This poses an interesting question. Am I going to have to learn how to pitch my voice down again to take advantage of the additional lower feminine range the surgery might provide me with? My current inflection is a bit limited because even at my highest range I still sound male though I am above the normal male range. To use more inflection in my voice would drive me into the upper range of a normal male voice. That might be a gay voice which is something I don't want. The answer may have to wait until I have the surgery as even with surgery, I am not sure how much the doctor can help me. I am pretty sure I will have to continue working in the upper register but I don't have a problem with that if I can have people stop calling me sir on the telephone. It's always a pain when the paper work reads Dena xxxxx and the call me Mr xxxxx
I'm tired of being sir'ed on the phone myself, esp at conference calls at work. Then I have to send an email afterward politely explaining that I am a woman. You'd think my name would tip them off as to my sex, but nope - some people are well meaning, but oblivious. I've pretty much learned to live with that in my social life. Lol
Worst one was we would vend at gun clubs where a large number of military men would hang out. Now think about a person 5'14", light brown permed afro haircut and boobs in a gun club mens T-shirt and jeans or shorts talking to a shorter former military man who may address everybody as sir. I know the customer is always right but just once I would have liked to drop my pants. On the other hand, while I did receive a few looks, all were polite so I would let it pass. It's even possible they came to buy something just so they could get a close up look at us. Can't argue with the mighty buck.
Life is to short to worry about stuff like that.
Dena, that must be hard to still be called "sir" on the phone that often after 35 years! For me it was just 17 years and it happened only occasionally but that was already enough to let me have surgery. I had a glottoplasty only, no CTA. What this did for me was to improve my inflections as it improved my ability to use a wider range of pitches with more ease. So I can still use a rather low pitch if I want to, but it is more comfortable to use a higher pitch and it is easier to use the upper pitch ranges for speaking. What still bugs me is the voice break. So if you have a problem with inflections, I think the endoscopic glottoplasty is a good thing. I am not so sure about the CTA part though - the part done by incision in the neck. From what I heard so far, it limits your ability to use your pitch range and it kind of forces the pitch up. In theory, it should put you more or less into a head voice because the CT muscle which controls pitch at regular speaking pitches is disabled by it. But I am not sure about this.
Be sure however, pitch is your main issue in the voice - if you have other issues, like resonance or inflections, it may be worth working on those already before the surgery. Timbre seems to change somewhat with glottoplasty, inflections can be easier for some, also resonance control seems to be easier for many, but the "basics" have to be there. Maybe you want to share a voice recording anyways for comparison and also for others to comment on your voice as it is now (looking at the non-pitch parameters)?
Quote from: Cadence Jean on May 25, 2015, 10:18:09 AM
I'm tired of being sir'ed on the phone myself, esp at conference calls at work.
INDEED!! And that is why I am meeting Dr. Haben for a consult in 3 months. :) Enough with the Sir's. And in person, everything is fine until I open my mouth. ugh.
anhaq : Back in 1078-79 I spent a good deal of time with a very skilled speech therapist finding my current voice. He didn't just teach me how to use my voice but instead taught me how to find my voice and that of others. One of the things I did was to keep a tape recorder handy and if I found an interesting voice, I would record it and bring it to the next session in order to pick it apart. As for you at first, that was the only option for years. I have developed a pretty thick skin about it but my refrigerator kicked the bucket last week and I purchased a replacement with all the water features (needed in a hot climate like mine). To make a long story short, the filter was causing problems because of the low water pressure and I needed to know how to disable it. I made 5 calls to Sears getting disconnected and wrong answers before I got what I was after. The calls would start out in another country with a non-English speaker and then I would get transferred to a support location. I got a big batch of Sirs in a short time which really rubbed it in. The fact I was dealing with non English speakers was part of the problem as English wasn't their first language, they were using pitch instead of other audio clues to place a gender the voice. My neighbor who has a regional accent did the same thing but the boobs caused her to be polite and call me by name and not gender.
My highest pitch is around an E3 so my main voice has to be around a C3 which is a full octave below a female voice. Even at that I know I could use more inflection but I would end up in the upper end of the male voice if went that far down. Having gone through the work before I understand the work I will need to do in order to lock in the new voice and I don't have a problem pitching my voice after the surgery. In fact I think I will have to in order move the new voice into my mouth where it belongs for a woman. You can't get a female voice by talking out of your chest. After all these years, I don't even recall how to talk out of my chest. I never thought that would happen but it did. To bad I don't talk in my sleep because it would be interesting to know if my body remembers how to talk out of my chest. The two things I want are pitch and the ability to project my voice at volume. I currently have the volume but not the pitch.
I have been an assembler computer programmer for 40 years but I will be the first to admit I am clueless about sharing voices on the internet. I use this board well because I am also over at SETI and they use the same software but I have only gone as far as sharing pictures. A little help in that area would be appreciated. By the way, I use MAC hardware and iPhone if that helps.
I have to get ready for work but I will see you latter.
It's not really the phone as I mostly do not use the telephone, but it is the stupid drive thru window. Once you make an order you can look fem as they get once they hear the voice it's "sir." Some people hesitate now and some are surprised when I pull up and they see me. But enough is enough which is why I went with the surgical option.
Hi, Dena.
Ity good to hear you had a good voice therapist that far back. When I was trying to fond anyone who can help me in 1997, it was kind of pointless. So I turned to online stuff, but Melanies voice tapes helped me - I know for many they dont do that. No one knows why for some people it takes a long time and for others there seem to be shortcuts.
Anyways, being misgendered so much really sucks - luckily in Germany, people rarely use gendered language so mus if talking to a person directly. It is uncommon to be called "Sir" or "Madam" all the time. Its just not part of regular language patterns, so it is a bit harder to be openly misgendered, but I had this kind of funny incidence where I was selling an old car and making a deal on the phone with that guy, when he came he tried to cheat me by claiming that he has talked to my brother on the phone and already agreed on a lower price. That also rubbed it is, even though it was kind of funny. It clearly showed to me however how different my voice was perceived on the phone versus face to face
Quote from: Dena on May 26, 2015, 08:57:58 AM
I got a big batch of Sirs in a short time which really rubbed it in. The fact I was dealing with non English speakers was part of the problem as English wasn't their first language, they were using pitch instead of other audio clues to place a gender the voice. My neighbor who has a regional accent did the same thing but the boobs caused her to be polite and call me by name and not gender.
Thats also really bad - if people deliberately use names and avoid gendered language even if they normally would :(
I totally would also look into VFS in your situation.
I did not completely understand this:
Quote
My highest pitch is around an E3 so my main voice has to be around a C3 which is a full octave below a female voice. Even at that I know I could use more inflection but I would end up in the upper end of the male voice if went that far down.
Nor C3 is mid male range, 130 Hz, E3 is in the neutral range about 160 Hz, female average pitch usually stars at about 180 Hz, which is F3 and average female voices seem to be at the G or A (195-220 Hz) depending on country and language. A C4, a full octave above the C3, would be a very high feminine voice which would often be close to the "head voice". If I understand you correctly, your relaxed ("male") voice would be around a C3, in the mid male range, but your present voice is around E3 which is in a neutral range? Or have you trained to be higher in pitch? If you speak at an E3 on average, I am sure you drop a lot to the D3 or C3, which would make your pitch sound more male indeed. This was basically the same pitch level I had pre op. I was usually speaking around the E3, but if I relaxed it a lot it went to C3 and if I was not careful or if I was strained or a bit sick, it could go down to A2. As far as I can tell , my average now is close to the G3 or F3, but this is relaxed - I can still go down to the C3, but it is kind of really consciously lowering the voice.
QuoteIn fact I think I will have to in order move the new voice into my mouth where it belongs for a woman.
Oh sure. But you already do that, right? So it will not be different now and post op.
QuoteThe two things I want are pitch and the ability to project my voice at volume. I currently have the volume but not the pitch.
I think projecting at high volume will be something that cannot be guaranteed. As I have heard it from Yeson patients, it took 1-2 years to get volume back, but others who have had voice surgery said, that for them it never came back fully :\
You can use either soundcloud (permanent until you delete it) or vocaroo (temporary for a few weeks) to put voice files online. You can of course also use dropbox and share links to the files there. After you posted a bit in this forum, you should also be able to attach a zip file to a post in the forums, but it will have to be approved by a mod. So using vocaroo is probably the fastest as you can record the clip in the browser and just share the link. All other options need registration.
Quote from: iKate on May 26, 2015, 09:38:06 AM
It's not really the phone as I mostly do not use the telephone, but it is the stupid drive thru window. Once you make an order you can look fem as they get once they hear the voice it's "sir."
Out of curiousity - how does it work in english? Here if I go to a drive through they say (roughly translated) "Welcome at xxxx, what would you like to order", then I tell them, then they say "thank you, [repeating my order] - is this correct?" and once I tell them yes it is, they tell me "please drive to counter number 1" or something like that. There is no gender involved - they still may be surprised if I drive there and pick it up, but they dont show it ;). So, obviously in english they use a lot of gendered language in it?
I will work on the other post in a bit but proper english always needs a noun or subject in each sentence. Most of the time it's at or near the start but it can wander such as in "Will that be all SIR". English can get very sloppy in common use and an example would be to leave the SIR off the end. It is also a common to use the person's name when you know it. The formal would be Mr. Last Name or first name when informal and you know the person. When you don't know the person, you use sir or madam or mam with mam being the more common of the two and Madam the more formal.
English is so complex because it was cobbled together so you have the formal rules you learned in school and what everybody uses on the street. We are not offended if the rules of English get bent out shape a bit because we all do it. In short, your written english is so good that I didn't know you were a born german speaker until I learned it from other sources.
Quote from: anjaq on May 26, 2015, 09:49:13 AM
Out of curiousity - how does it work in english? Here if I go to a drive through they say (roughly translated) "Welcome at xxxx, what would you like to order", then I tell them, then they say "thank you, [repeating my order] - is this correct?" and once I tell them yes it is, they tell me "please drive to counter number 1" or something like that. There is no gender involved - they still may be surprised if I drive there and pick it up, but they dont show it ;). So, obviously in english they use a lot of gendered language in it?
They don't use gender much but last weekend I had this incident.
"Hi welcome to Burger King, may I take your order?"
Me:"I would like ....."
"OK that's $..... please pull to the 2nd window."
The order shows on a LCD screen so you can verify.
Then I pull to the 2nd window, pay with Apple pay (NFC contactless payment using your iPhone). It's a terminal right outside the window where you can swipe or tap. I pay then without looking at me she said, "sir please pull to the front we will bring your order out." They do this because sometimes an order like a veggie burger or fish takes extra time and they want to reset the sensor at the window so their performance numbers don't suffer.
Usually I don't get gendered at the window or sometimes ma'am or miss. But they were busy and she really did not get a good glance at me, she mostly went by the voice is what I gather. It's pretty much automatic for people. The voice is the swing vote for people and once you get put in the male box it is hard to climb back out.
Ikate, same stuff happens to me in drive thru's. :/
Ah, I think I do understand why its different in German. We have a formal version of "you" that is gender neutral and often used as a noun in a sentence. So it would be "What would you like to order?" and "you" is the noun, but in German it is a formal "you" that shows respect and probably is replacing your "sir" or "madam"... Interesting. So while German is a very much gendered language in many aspects (there are almost always different words for a female doing a job or a male doing a job - like you have it in "salesman" and "saleswoman" - but this is like this in almost all job titles in German), short interactions are less gendered. Funny.
Congrats and good luck ;) Yea your post brought me back to my own surgery with Dr Haben... I was really impressed with how smooth everything went, they certainly have done this before.... For me to fly all the way across the country and literally have ZERO problems with anything down to the smallest detail is pretty remarkable... Dr Haben and his staff were great and the staff at the hospital were some of the best Ive ever had as well 8)
Yea the recovery sucks but it will be over before you know it ;)
The voice will have to wait as I am at work and I may be common knowledge but nobody has said anything about it. Besides that, a truck could roll by the office in the middle of a recording session.
I am not exactly sure how low my male voice would go because I think I was speaking from my throat instead of my chest. This voice has to be an octave above the old voice but still about an octave below the female range. The point is when my voice broke, it broke bad and the only way I can reach the female range hurts. That is something I was warned about and have paid close attention to. As the results, I have had no problems with vocal damage caused by improper usage of my voice. I suspect if I had wanted to remain a male, with some proper training, I might have done pretty good singing in the lower ranges but by the time my voice hit those ranges my head was dealing with other issues and the voice didn't help. In short, my old normal voice was somewhere in the mid 2 range. My physical size combine with a very large adams apple indicates I have a good sized vocal instrument which is not really what I want. I would settle for a much smaller model.
As for projection, I don't need it all at once and am willing to wait out the healing period. Funny thing is a slow healing period will be an advantage for me. It will allow for the people who know me but don't know about me to see a gradual change in my voice instead of walking and suddenly going from a low voice to a high one.
The projection I want would be a loud speaking voice and I don't need to yell. I deal with a number of half deaf people and moderate amounts of background noise. If the noise is to loud, I currently put off the conversation until I don't have to strain my voice to be heard. When I started pitching my voice I gave up the ability to yell and I have been able to get along pretty well without it but there have been a few time I needed some fast foot work to in range of a person to deliver a message.
Hi, Dena
I somehow think you are posting your replies in several threads - maybe it would have made sense to do your own topic and post everything there ;)
Anyways...
You can try different recordings - useful wouold probably be your everyday voice and a voice where you just totally relax and let go. You dont have to push it to sound male. Something that might me interesting though would be if you cound record a glissando while humming (humming and then go as low as you can and then as high as you can) to evaluate your vocal range. We can analyze this with PRAAT and tell you the notes, if you like ;)
Quote from: Dena on May 26, 2015, 11:26:26 AM
This voice has to be an octave above the old voice but still about an octave below the female range. The point is when my voice broke, it broke bad and the only way I can reach the female range hurts.
This is not physically impossible, just very very unlikely - it would place your voice in or below the C2 range, which is about 65 Hz - Dr Kim mentioned that some patients had voices as low as 85 Hz, which poses a problem since you can usually only gain 75 Hz with the surgery, which still would put them only in the upper male or gender neutral range.
Here is a conversion table showing Hz and piano key names. Male voices are said to be 100-150 Hz, female 180-260 Hz.
If you are right and your voice is in the lowest possible range originally, it would probably be in that 80 Hz range - so to reach 140 Hz which is the point you can go to, IIRC, already is a pretty big shift and definitely it is not adviseable to go beyond that by voice training alone. If my assumptions so far are true, VFS will not be able to give you an effortless female voice but you would have to add some pitch increase by training on top of that. Usually what happens if someone has a trained , piptched, voice and then has VFS is, the new voice will be the same as the old, pitched voice, but the untrained voice is gone and the new voice is without effort but at the same pitch as the trained voice before VFS.
QuoteIn short, my old normal voice was somewhere in the mid 2 range. My physical size combine with a very large adams apple indicates I have a good sized vocal instrument which is not really what I want. I would settle for a much smaller model.
This would match my assumption of your old voice being in the 80 Hz range (E2) which really is low but it is only a bit over an octave below the female range (E3 is gender neutral, G3 is already female range)
Since your physical size is so large (how tall are you? more than 1m90? are you thin or more medium sized or big?), a voice that is below female average is expected by others anyways. Do you get misgendered a lot because of the tallness and the very large adams apple? After all its a pretty well known gender marker.... Or did you have it shaved?
Size of the adams apple seems not to have to do a whole lot with pitch though. I have basically no adams apple but my voice still was in the 110 Hz range and considered in the lower male range.
QuoteAs for projection, I don't need it all at once and am willing to wait out the healing period. Funny thing is a slow healing period will be an advantage for me. It will allow for the people who know me but don't know about me to see a gradual change in my voice instead of walking and suddenly going from a low voice to a high one.
Well - it is hard to predict. But one thing seems to be an issue - if you dont use your new pitch, you may not get used to it and then it may be harder to use it eventually. But since you said you are already using a voice that is almost an octave above your natural voice, the difference will not even be noticeable by others, it will just be easier for you and you will have the option to use higher pitches at will, so you could eventually increase pitch as you like.
During the first 8 weeks and some more, I was not audible in a car that had a loud engine or in a bar situation. I was at a party after the 8 week mark but was basically mute because I could not talk loud enough to communicate to others since too many people were talking plus music was playing. I think now after 3 months, I might stand a chance. What is your occupation? Do you have a very loud workplace?
Quote from: anjaq on May 26, 2015, 10:54:26 AM
Ah, I think I do understand why its different in German. We have a formal version of "you" that is gender neutral and often used as a noun in a sentence. So it would be "What would you like to order?" and "you" is the noun, but in German it is a formal "you" that shows respect and probably is replacing your "sir" or "madam"... Interesting. So while German is a very much gendered language in many aspects (there are almost always different words for a female doing a job or a male doing a job - like you have it in "salesman" and "saleswoman" - but this is like this in almost all job titles in German), short interactions are less gendered. Funny.
Actually, in English one can carry on a gender neutral conversation quite easily. <--- this is a gender neutral sentence.
The problem is that society is so ingrained to gender people that it is more or less automatic to use sir, ma'am, miss etc. and it is done out of respect, sort of acting as a servant almost. I see less of it happening these days though. Good or bad thing, I think. Good because it's not triggering. Bad because I don't know if I'm being read.
Hehe, yes that is why it is a bit more confusing in Germany - you can not so often tell how people gender you because it is common to not use gendered language and it is easy to keep doing so in some situations - in others however it is just impossible because some things are strictly gendered (although the job description gendering - it is common to just use the male version in many cases and most people would not be offended by it)
Hey ladies thanks for all the replies, sorry i didn't respond to all of them I've been busy. Here's my two week update, so far so good. Still kind of raspy and a little pain here and there.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jP18LiHW6q
how do i edit my original post to put this link in there so everything's all together? I want it to be easy for someone who doesn't have a lot of time to be able to find everything fast.
Sorry, the editing of posts older than a few days is no longer enabled because some people used it to delete all their older posts. If you want to edit something, you need to ask a Forum Moderator.
We can take care of that for you if you like. Anjaq is right, people deleting all their old posts is why it is now restricted after a certain time period. Just us know and we would be glad too. Hugs
Mariah
Quote from: HouseHippo on May 28, 2015, 11:28:52 PM
Hey ladies thanks for all the replies, sorry i didn't respond to all of them I've been busy. Here's my two week update, so far so good. Still kind of raspy and a little pain here and there.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jP18LiHW6q
how do i edit my original post to put this link in there so everything's all together? I want it to be easy for someone who doesn't have a lot of time to be able to find everything fast.
Thanks for both of your replies.
Mariah could you put "http://vocaroo.com/i/s1jP18LiHW6q -- 2 weeks post op" below "http://vocaroo.com/i/s1Yf0RJjgsHh -- 8 days post op." on my original post? Thank you!
All taken care of for you. Good luck and Hugs
Mariah
Just remember vocaroo itself deletes the recordings after a certain period automatically.
Quote from: Mariah2014 on May 29, 2015, 04:36:26 AM
All taken care of for you. Good luck and Hugs
Mariah
Thanks a lot :)
Quote from: iKate on May 29, 2015, 04:50:26 AM
Just remember vocaroo itself deletes the recordings after a certain period automatically.
I assumed it did which is why i included a mirror in my original post here https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0 with all the files. Thanks for the heads up though
Sounding better every time I hear you! I'm getting more and more hopeful for my results. :)
Quote from: Cadence Jean on May 29, 2015, 07:04:37 AM
Sounding better every time I hear you! I'm getting more and more hopeful for my results. :)
Thanks :)! I'm looking forward to hearing your results. Almost a week before your surgery right?
Yep! Only twelve days to go! XD
That's exciting are you going to share results with all of us?
Yep yep! My thread is here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=188034.0. I have before posted. Will post afters when I can talk. :) I'm thinking that I'm going to stick closer to the Yeson aftercare instructions and not speak at all for two weeks, and then minimally for the following two weeks.
I tried to do two weeks no talking, but one week without talking was torture. I couldn't help myself haha.
LOL, I actually liked the no speaking period. It gave me an interesting new perspective and experience... I hoped I could keep some of those things into my normal life , but I think I did not manage to do that as much as I hoped.
I'm not a super social person so i imagined it would be easy. I absolutely hated it though. Maybe I like the sound of my own voice :P.
It was weird - communicating by signs and facial expressions felt actually more social than just talking. It was interesting for me. But now I also like to talk on some days because I actually do like the sound of my voice - at least on the "good voice days" ;)
Quote
Hi, Dena
I somehow think you are posting your replies in several threads - maybe it would have made sense to do your own topic and post everything there ;)
Anyways...
You can try different recordings - useful wouold probably be your everyday voice and a voice where you just totally relax and let go. You dont have to push it to sound male. Something that might me interesting though would be if you cound record a glissando while humming (humming and then go as low as you can and then as high as you can) to evaluate your vocal range. We can analyze this with PRAAT and tell you the notes, if you like ;)
The problem I have is that I have been using this voice starting in 1979 and it is so locked in the original voice is gone. I would have to train myself to access it. I can do ranges in my pitched voice but it is so strange that when I first starting working with my voice I feared slipping into the old voice. Now I find it almost impossible to do so.
QuoteThis is not physically impossible, just very very unlikely - it would place your voice in or below the C2 range, which is about 65 Hz - Dr Kim mentioned that some patients had voices as low as 85 Hz, which poses a problem since you can usually only gain 75 Hz with the surgery, which still would put them only in the upper male or gender neutral range.
Here is a conversion table showing Hz and piano key names. Male voices are said to be 100-150 Hz, female 180-260 Hz.
If you are right and your voice is in the lowest possible range originally, it would probably be in that 80 Hz range - so to reach 140 Hz which is the point you can go to, IIRC, already is a pretty big shift and definitely it is not adviseable to go beyond that by voice training alone. If my assumptions so far are true, VFS will not be able to give you an effortless female voice but you would have to add some pitch increase by training on top of that. Usually what happens if someone has a trained , piptched, voice and then has VFS is, the new voice will be the same as the old, pitched voice, but the untrained voice is gone and the new voice is without effort but at the same pitch as the trained voice before VFS.
This would match my assumption of your old voice being in the 80 Hz range (E2) which really is low but it is only a bit over an octave below the female range (E3 is gender neutral, G3 is already female range)
Since your physical size is so large (how tall are you? more than 1m90? are you thin or more medium sized or big?), a voice that is below female average is expected by others anyways. Do you get misgendered a lot because of the tallness and the very large adams apple? After all its a pretty well known gender marker.... Or did you have it shaved?
Size of the adams apple seems not to have to do a whole lot with pitch though. I have basically no adams apple but my voice still was in the 110 Hz range and considered in the lower male range.
I am 1.87 meters tall and have a medium build of about 82 kilograms. I did have my adams apple shaved and the doctor was very careful not to remove to much as he feared damaging the voice. Even with the shave, I don't have much fat on my neck so my larynx sometimes shows. My shoulder are broad and I do have a good sized chest cavity. For the most part I pass effectively as long as I don't open my mouth. In my picture the only work done to my faces was the nose because of blocked passages and a little touch up that made a huge difference. i went in for the shave but ended up loving the nose. I was playing around with pitch perfect on my phone and my voice breaks around G3. I was also able to generate a B2 and hold it. I seem to have a pretty good range, just not where I want it. The lower range may not be be as low as it will go because the lower range is something I haven't worked with in a long time. I don't care that I will have to continue pitching the voice as I have done it for so long that seems natural. I understand I will have to get my ear used to the new range and I may have other issues adding interest to the voice. I also understand that it could take up to a year of work to get the new voice close to locked in. I went through the process once to get where I am and there is no point in spending that money unless I am willing to do the work again.
Quote
Well - it is hard to predict. But one thing seems to be an issue - if you dont use your new pitch, you may not get used to it and then it may be harder to use it eventually. But since you said you are already using a voice that is almost an octave above your natural voice, the difference will not even be noticeable by others, it will just be easier for you and you will have the option to use higher pitches at will, so you could eventually increase pitch as you like.
I have been using my current voice for a very long and often check my self to make sure I am getting all I can out of it. The process is simple. As I am working at the upper end of my rage I carefully listen to the inflection. If the inflection is chopped I have gone to high and I need to back off a bit to keep the inflection. If I am around a smoker ( my neighbor) I lose a little more of the upper range until I can get all that nasty stuff out of my system and then I bring it back up. I was made very aware of how to tune the voice and keep it in range and I don't even have to think about it, it just happens.
I don't think having my voice change will matter much to the people I am around as I suspect the word has gone around the grapevine. As I work under my mother, I have a good deal of job security as long as I do the work. She is supportive and came up with the idea that my medical saving account would pay for the surgery. Transportation would be out of pocket.
Quote
During the first 8 weeks and some more, I was not audible in a car that had a loud engine or in a bar situation. I was at a party after the 8 week mark but was basically mute because I could not talk loud enough to communicate to others since too many people were talking plus music was playing. I think now after 3 months, I might stand a chance. What is your occupation? Do you have a very loud workplace?
I have a couple of jobs. One is supporting a computer product and I have gone over a year without a call. The other is industrial rental property and most of the time I am in doors. The sound issue would be they pull trucks up outside the building and let them idle for a while. I am not so concerned with a short term lose of volume but I would like to have a loud talking voice available over the long term as several people are losing their hearing. To be honest with you, we don't work that hard. Most of the time we are waiting for something to break. My mom is fully able to run the office without me but I am backup should something happen to her. I have already given up the ability to yell as the higher voice is unable to work at that level of output. My current voice will carry pretty good if needed.
Hi Dena.
I must admit, your vocal dynamics are quite different from mine, so I have a harder time to give you good advice. Especially your very low "top" point is something I did not encounter that way. But Lets go through it...
Quote from: Dena on May 31, 2015, 11:12:55 PM
The problem I have is that I have been using this voice starting in 1979 and it is so locked in the original voice is gone.
Yes , that is normal and it happened to me too, but it mainly affected resonance and not so much pitch. So I could use my female resonance and still go rather low, admittedly not as low as if I dropped that. But I am not sure now - on one side you say that it is hard to drop - that your current, trained, voice is all natural for you now - what is the purpose of surgery for you then? My main issue was that it took me effort to keep a higher pitch in my trained voice, that it sometimes slipped and I wanted that gone.
What would be helpful now in terms of voice range assessment and pitch assessment is, if you relax - totall let go of anything that bothers you about the voice - conscious pitch control, barriers you have set up during all those years - just totally relax and then do the slides or ranges and see what comes out there - which pitches are possible in a relaxed way and not straining at all? For me , doing Yoga and breathing exercises allowed this ;)
QuoteI am 1.87 meters tall and have a medium build of about 82 kilograms. I did have my adams apple shaved and the doctor was very careful not to remove to much as he feared damaging the voice. Even with the shave, I don't have much fat on my neck so my larynx sometimes shows. My shoulder are broad and I do have a good sized chest cavity. For the most part I pass effectively as long as I don't open my mouth.
That is a bit tall, but the weight is ok for that (I am 1.73 but 115 kg). I think the shape of the larynx is important, if the larynx is visible but has no Adams Apple on it, it should be ok.
What puzzles me here now is - do you have a voice issue or not - you said you have a good trained voice, cannot slip back into the male voice, but then again you say people raise eyebrows when you speak... What is happening?
QuoteI was playing around with pitch perfect on my phone and my voice breaks around G3. I was also able to generate a B2 and hold it. I seem to have a pretty good range, just not where I want it.
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-notennamen.htm
This may sound a bit harsh, but I think this is a rather restricted vocal range. It is not even close to a full octave. You said your traine voice is an ocatave higher than your original voice, so your original voice must be far outside your current reach. I think you definitely have a vocal issue of some sort and this should be checked first , before you do VFS. What about the range above the G3 - head voice/falsetto/middle voice/.... is it accessible? Have you had a checkup at an ENT recently? Maybe you have some dysphonia, vocal tremor, tension asymmetry, hypertension, glottal gaps,...?
To give you a comparison - pre OP my vocal range was E2->C4 where it transitioned into head voice from C4->A#5 (at some point there were probably transitions into falsetto and into whistle register). The part between E3 and C4 was pretty hard to do. Now my vocal range is from about B2 to G3 , then it transitions into mixed/middle voice until C4 or D4 where it transitions into head voice and it goes up to G5.
This is not typical, I know - its a range of almost 3 octaves and pre op it was over 3.5 octaves - but between 1 and 2 octaves should be possible for almost everyone... (including all registers). If not, I think there is some voice issue. Dr Kim told me to first fix my voice issues before having the surgery. At that time I was not even close to these 3.5 octaves, but was more locked into a few notes and a huge and ugly break into head voice. I had several voice issues (asymmetry, double gap in the vocal folds,...etc).
My biggest worry now about your voice would be, that the transition point to head voice (passagio) does not shift upwards with surgery - it barely changes. In the worst case, your voice will have a new base pitch close to your current upper limit at the G3 (G3 now is my average base pitch apparently, before it was C3). If you cannot go past the G3 then, your voice would feel locked in and restriced in pitch range and this wouold possibly lead to a monotonous voice, which again is a male gender marker.
So I think it is crucial for you to get a regular ENT checkup, do a voice assessment and if you want an opinion of me or others in this group, maybe a voice recording showing also your vocal range including the passagio into head voice would be very helpful. If your computer has a good microphone, you can just use vocaroo website and record in in the browser without recording software.
Sorry if this thread is getting sidetracked, but I have a question for Anja. Many VFS patients, including you, have remarked that the "break point" doesn't change. Dr. Haben has stated this to me as well. My question for you is, how do you fell about the notes right around that break? Do they feel less strained? More powerful? Easier to reach. Is passing through the break smoother and less straining? Thanks in advance. I just got a month of vacation approved for October so I think I'm actually doing this!
Don't worry this thread got sidetracked a long time ago lol. I'm almost 3 weeks post op and I've noticed a difference in my break point, it feels higher. I can't say much else while healing though. I'll report back when I'm healed up more.
Forgive my ignorance, but would one of you ladies please define the "breakpoint" for me? :)
^Sure thing! The break point I am referring to is the point at which your pure chest voice gives out and your voice cannot go any higher without moving into a head voice (it can be smoothed over with training and using a mixed voice, but I'll try to keep this explanation simple!) So imagine you sing a comfortable mid-to-low pitch in your pure chest voice with a good amount of volume, hold it, and then slide up and up and up until your voice gives out and you flip into a falsetto. The point at which the flip occurs is your break point. Does that make sense?
Edited to add: Thanks for your reply, Hippo! Glad your recovery is going well. You had the triple, correct? What Dr. Haben told me is that the break point does indeed change when the CTA is added. For the glottoplasty alone, he told me that the break point remains the same. Sounds like you are well on your way to a wonderful new voice, and warmbody's results are also fantastic which makes me want to consider the triple, but I play clarinet for a living and I just can't justify doing anything that drastic to my vocal cords and that area in general because it could ruin my career if something went wrong :)
Thankee, miss!
Wow, i'm impressed! I didn't even know that this was a thing!
I didn't either! When I found out, I'm like DO WANT. lol. And I called the next day to schedule my surgery with Haben. Lol
Thanks kwala, my recovering very fast at this point. I did have the "tripple" done because I used to smoke and felt that was my best option.
Edit: while I have the time i thought i should upload a two and a half week update. http://vocaroo.com/i/s0jkPN1qsG7D
that is interesting to heat that the CTA sctually supposedly increases the break point. I thought it basically almost eliminates it because it sort of pushes you into a head voice anyways? After all the CT muscle controlling the chest voice is set out of action with it?
In the glottoplasty, yes, the break point is the same after the surgery but to me it feels a lot less rough to go over it. Mine is at about D4, which is at the upper end of my speaking range anyways, so I dont think it affects me too much. What seems to change is the break point into male resonance, it seems to be harder and more like a break. So if I go below the G3, I may drop out of the mixed voice in an unpleasant way if I really try - but its harder to go there.
I must admit though - I am not a voice professional and currently my voice confuses me a lot. I think maybe I should focus less on all these terms and analysis and somehow just concentrate on managing to get a good voice. The short version for me so far seems to be, it is easier to use a feminine voice post op, but it is not granted freely - so I still have to use some voice control, but it is not taking as much effort - also not going up in pitch beyond the normal speaking range - and some things just cannot happen anymore.
Quote from: anjaq on June 01, 2015, 05:10:29 PM
that is interesting to heat that the CTA sctually supposedly increases the break point. I thought it basically almost eliminates it because it sort of pushes you into a head voice anyways? After all the CT muscle controlling the chest voice is set out of action with it?
In the glottoplasty, yes, the break point is the same after the surgery but to me it feels a lot less rough to go over it. Mine is at about D4, which is at the upper end of my speaking range anyways, so I dont think it affects me too much. What seems to change is the break point into male resonance, it seems to be harder and more like a break. So if I go below the G3, I may drop out of the mixed voice in an unpleasant way if I really try - but its harder to go there.
I must admit though - I am not a voice professional and currently my voice confuses me a lot. I think maybe I should focus less on all these terms and analysis and somehow just concentrate on managing to get a good voice. The short version for me so far seems to be, it is easier to use a feminine voice post op, but it is not granted freely - so I still have to use some voice control, but it is not taking as much effort - also not going up in pitch beyond the normal speaking range - and some things just cannot happen anymore.
Yes, the CTA stretches the head voice muscles into a semi-permanent flex as I understand it, so I suppose what he means is that your mixed register becomes stronger, which would lead to a higher break for pure head voice. This is just my own speculation, however.
Thanks so much for your explanation. I do think the glottoplasty will be enough for me. Even my male speaking voice is not all that deep and I think if the glottoplasty can make the notes around my breaking point more natural and easy to use without fear of cracking or sounding like a strained male instead of a normal female then it is probably the way to go for me personally. I think your attitude about not getting caught up in all the technical terms and just focusing on finding your own female voice that suits you is a great one :)
Quote from: anjaq on June 01, 2015, 07:32:54 AM
Hi Dena.
I must admit, your vocal dynamics are quite different from mine, so I have a harder time to give you good advice. Especially your very low "top" point is something I did not encounter that way. But Lets go through it...
Yes , that is normal and it happened to me too, but it mainly affected resonance and not so much pitch. So I could use my female resonance and still go rather low, admittedly not as low as if I dropped that. But I am not sure now - on one side you say that it is hard to drop - that your current, trained, voice is all natural for you now - what is the purpose of surgery for you then? My main issue was that it took me effort to keep a higher pitch in my trained voice, that it sometimes slipped and I wanted that gone.
What would be helpful now in terms of voice range assessment and pitch assessment is, if you relax - totall let go of anything that bothers you about the voice - conscious pitch control, barriers you have set up during all those years - just totally relax and then do the slides or ranges and see what comes out there - which pitches are possible in a relaxed way and not straining at all? For me , doing Yoga and breathing exercises allowed this ;)
That is a bit tall, but the weight is ok for that (I am 1.73 but 115 kg). I think the shape of the larynx is important, if the larynx is visible but has no Adams Apple on it, it should be ok.
What puzzles me here now is - do you have a voice issue or not - you said you have a good trained voice, cannot slip back into the male voice, but then again you say people raise eyebrows when you speak... What is happening?
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-notennamen.htm
This may sound a bit harsh, but I think this is a rather restricted vocal range. It is not even close to a full octave. You said your traine voice is an ocatave higher than your original voice, so your original voice must be far outside your current reach. I think you definitely have a vocal issue of some sort and this should be checked first , before you do VFS. What about the range above the G3 - head voice/falsetto/middle voice/.... is it accessible? Have you had a checkup at an ENT recently? Maybe you have some dysphonia, vocal tremor, tension asymmetry, hypertension, glottal gaps,...?
To give you a comparison - pre OP my vocal range was E2->C4 where it transitioned into head voice from C4->A#5 (at some point there were probably transitions into falsetto and into whistle register). The part between E3 and C4 was pretty hard to do. Now my vocal range is from about B2 to G3 , then it transitions into mixed/middle voice until C4 or D4 where it transitions into head voice and it goes up to G5.
This is not typical, I know - its a range of almost 3 octaves and pre op it was over 3.5 octaves - but between 1 and 2 octaves should be possible for almost everyone... (including all registers). If not, I think there is some voice issue. Dr Kim told me to first fix my voice issues before having the surgery. At that time I was not even close to these 3.5 octaves, but was more locked into a few notes and a huge and ugly break into head voice. I had several voice issues (asymmetry, double gap in the vocal folds,...etc).
My biggest worry now about your voice would be, that the transition point to head voice (passagio) does not shift upwards with surgery - it barely changes. In the worst case, your voice will have a new base pitch close to your current upper limit at the G3 (G3 now is my average base pitch apparently, before it was C3). If you cannot go past the G3 then, your voice would feel locked in and restriced in pitch range and this wouold possibly lead to a monotonous voice, which again is a male gender marker.
So I think it is crucial for you to get a regular ENT checkup, do a voice assessment and if you want an opinion of me or others in this group, maybe a voice recording showing also your vocal range including the passagio into head voice would be very helpful. If your computer has a good microphone, you can just use vocaroo website and record in in the browser without recording software.
I worked at it for a few minutes before I went to work and while my voice was fresh and I have some information that may clear things up for you.
The lowest I could go in my little experiment was A2 at 100hz. Because I am so used to working in the higher range, I am not sure that is the best number but it's pretty close.
The highest number is G3 196hz. I can hit that and hold that comfortably. If I try to exceed that, that is dangerous because it is painful even for a very short time and the voice becomes uncontrollable.
C3 136hz is the lower end of the range I use for the "female" voice. I am not sure but just below C3 may be the bottom of my falsetto voice. By the time I tried that test I had already pushed my voice to far and couldn't reliably control it.
My read on it is what I call my "female voice" is really more androgynous which people would tend to pick as male instead of female. I do use inflection that spans the C3 to G3. Because of my size, I suspect a 80hz bot would put me in the low female range which might match my body size better and not look out of place. I might end up sounding like Cher but I could live with that. If only I could sing like that ;)
As far as an ENT, I don't think that is needed as I have a 2 octave range which I suspect is pretty much normal. You on the other hand with that 3.5 octave range is far different and that is why most of us don't sing very well. I admit my voice is untrained for anything other than speech. Before I hit puberty my dad said with my voice I should consider singing but he never said that after I hit puberty. I think I understand why.
As I keep saying, my doctor taught me how to know what my range is and stay in the safe zone in order to avoid voice damage. I think my voice has improved over the years because I may have gained a bit of range and I am more aware of inflection. My voice is clearly above the larynx and in my mouth but there still could be resonance issues that I don't understand or know how to control. I do admit to not using the breathy voice very often and that may put a harsh edge on my voice.
One additional question is I don't know what the procedure used in Kora is and why is it different than the New York procedure. I would prefer New York but I also need be sure the Kora isn't far superior.
Hi, Dena
I guess you are uncomfortable sharing your voice either because you dont like it at all despite it serving you well for tha pst decades - or because you dont want your voice to be in public. I do understand that - it makes an assessment harder though. All I can offer you is to send it to me via vocaroo in a PM...
Quote from: Dena on June 01, 2015, 09:20:38 PM
The lowest I could go in my little experiment was A2 at 100hz. The highest number is G3 196hz. I can hit that and hold that comfortably. If I try to exceed that, that is dangerous because it is painful even for a very short time and the voice becomes uncontrollable.
See, this is puzzling me. Are you SURE it is the G3 and not the G4? The G3 is the low female speaking range, below 200 Hz and as you mentioned "falsetto" - if you really use falsetto, you should be able to go a lot higher than the normal speaking range. Also the difference between A2 and G3 is LESS than ONE octave, but you described your voice as spanning 2 octaves.
One has to be wrong - your vocal range reading or your assessment of having a 2 octave vocal range.
The suggestions what to do next hinges on that.
Using C3 as the lower end of the female voice is good - its a bit low but its just barely below female alto range I believe - A D3 would be better.
From what you say about your body size and all that, a female alto voice would be good for you, it would be centered around a F3 or G3 I belive with the lows at D4. So it would probably not be hugely different from your voice as it is now and the surgery should be able to provide that (given we solve that puzzle mentioned above)
QuoteAs far as an ENT, I don't think that is needed as I have a 2 octave range which I suspect is pretty much normal. You on the other hand with that 3.5 octave range is far different and that is why most of us don't sing very well. I admit my voice is untrained for anything other than speech.
I am not a singer at all. I am using my voice mostly for talking. I dared singing mantras and such a few times before the surgery and now I developed more interest in singing, but I stopped singing or doing music with puberty because I felt broken. Much of that vocal range was however only accessible to me afer a few voice therapy sessions. Apparently my voice was pretty damaged from speaking in a trained voice for 15 years. I felt like I could not go up in pitch at all - and if I did there was this huge break and then a weird falsetto voice above that - I did therpy for maybe 5 hours and that issue was clearing up. If G3 really is the highest note for you at this moment, I would strongly suggest to work on that. You can of course leave it all as it is, send Dr Kim or Dr Haben a voice file to check if he would do the surgery on you, go for it and afterwards deal with the voice therapy - but honestly, it seems to me that a lot of people go for the surgery with expectations that are unclear and then are confused or even disappointed if things are not working out as hoped for. I would suggest you try to minimize the risk of such an outcome by doing a proper perparation before a surgery
QuoteOne additional question is I don't know what the procedure used in Kora is and why is it different than the New York procedure. I would prefer New York but I also need be sure the Kora isn't far superior.
It is hard to say. My judgement to pick Korea was based mainly on the positive results of others and a comparison to local voice surgeons in Germany. In that comparison, Yeson was top because the statistics said that they have a 80% happiness rate opposed to 30% in Germany, they claimed to increase the voice on average by 75 Hz instead of 3-4 semitones, they said it is possible to sing with a post op voice - which german doctors specifically said will be impossible, the post op pictures of former patients looked better, the technique has some slight differences - the stitches are permanent & set deeper into the tissue & made to correct asymmetries, scar tissue seems to be less rigid and the commissure seems to be move V shaped as opposed to U shaped as in many results from German surgeons. So you could try to compare Yeson to Dr Haben based on these issues, maybe it helps?
A little update on my voice, I just got back from a restaurant, and my voice sounds awful when i need to raise it at all. for example a loud place or a drive through, It sounds 10 times more croaky and raspy. It's kinda embarrassing to use my voice in public still, I can't wait tell I'm fully healed, so I don't have to deal with that anymore.
QuoteI guess you are uncomfortable sharing your voice either because you dont like it at all despite it serving you well for tha pst decades - or because you dont want your voice to be in public. I do understand that - it makes an assessment harder though. All I can offer you is to send it to me via vocaroo in a PM...
I haven't had much time to work out the details of capturing a good sample. Love the new house but it rings like a bell. Most of it has motors or fans in the background. I ended up recording it in my bedroom with the door shut. The last issue is it's been a long day and my voice is a bit tired but this will give you a rough idea what I sound like. Now I have everything worked out I will have to try to get a better sample when I am doing a better job and my voice is rested.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s05xvROzmLHK (http://vocaroo.com/i/s05xvROzmLHK)
And now you know why I get sired all the time.
QuoteSee, this is puzzling me. Are you SURE it is the G3 and not the G4? The G3 is the low female speaking range, below 200 Hz and as you mentioned "falsetto" - if you really use falsetto, you should be able to go a lot higher than the normal speaking range. Also the difference between A2 and G3 is LESS than ONE octave, but you described your voice as spanning 2 octaves.
One has to be wrong - your vocal range reading or your assessment of having a 2 octave vocal range.
The suggestions what to do next hinges on that.
Using C3 as the lower end of the female voice is good - its a bit low but its just barely below female alto range I believe - A D3 would be better.
From what you say about your body size and all that, a female alto voice would be good for you, it would be centered around a F3 or G3 I belive with the lows at D4. So it would probably not be hugely different from your voice as it is now and the surgery should be able to provide that (given we solve that puzzle mentioned above)
As they say, we have a failure to communicate. From male to top end I have a two active range A2-G3 about 2 octaves. What I can use effectively in the upper range is C3-G3 and that is what I call my "Female voice" which would be a little more than than half an octave. I am capped on the upper end and the lower I go the more I move into the male range. Now if I got the full Alto range, I would love it but what I suspect would happen is my pitched voice would move into the lower Alto and I wouldn't be able to access the upper end of the Alto. If that's how it works out, I could be happy with it as I don't have much wiggle room to work with where I am.
QuoteI am not a singer at all. I am using my voice mostly for talking. I dared singing mantras and such a few times before the surgery and now I developed more interest in singing, but I stopped singing or doing music with puberty because I felt broken. Much of that vocal range was however only accessible to me afer a few voice therapy sessions. Apparently my voice was pretty damaged from speaking in a trained voice for 15 years. I felt like I could not go up in pitch at all - and if I did there was this huge break and then a weird falsetto voice above that - I did therpy for maybe 5 hours and that issue was clearing up. If G3 really is the highest note for you at this moment, I would strongly suggest to work on that. You can of course leave it all as it is, send Dr Kim or Dr Haben a voice file to check if he would do the surgery on you, go for it and afterwards deal with the voice therapy - but honestly, it seems to me that a lot of people go for the surgery with expectations that are unclear and then are confused or even disappointed if things are not working out as hoped for. I would suggest you try to minimize the risk of such an outcome by doing a proper perparation before a surgery
It is hard to say. My judgement to pick Korea was based mainly on the positive results of others and a comparison to local voice surgeons in Germany. In that comparison, Yeson was top because the statistics said that they have a 80% happiness rate opposed to 30% in Germany, they claimed to increase the voice on average by 75 Hz instead of 3-4 semitones, they said it is possible to sing with a post op voice - which german doctors specifically said will be impossible, the post op pictures of former patients looked better, the technique has some slight differences - the stitches are permanent & set deeper into the tissue & made to correct asymmetries, scar tissue seems to be less rigid and the commissure seems to be move V shaped as opposed to U shaped as in many results from German surgeons. So you could try to compare Yeson to Dr Haben based on these issues, maybe it helps?
From what I am reading, Dr. Haben is pretty consistent and give a 2/3 of an octave bump to the range. That would push the current range I am using into the female range and I could add more inflection to my voice by dipping below the female voice a bit as it would almost be expected for somebody of my size. I suspect if the doctor is able to give me even more range, I would still want to settle out in the lower Alto range reserving the higher end for more limited usage. What I have learned so far indicates I would have to pitch my voice which I don't consider a big deal. I don't think I have high expectations because my original equipment voice isn't cut out for this. Hopefully the surgery can give me that little extra I need. If I had a higher voice to start out with I wouldn't be considering surgery but so far, this is all I have and I think I can do better.
Hi, Dena.
I hope I am not hurting you by this but I think you are right by saying
Quote from: Dena on June 02, 2015, 11:09:13 PM
And now you know why I get sired all the time.
I dont know what your original unchanged voice sounds like, but I have the feeling you changed some things that are not really helping you. There is a lot of nasality in it among other issues. To be honest, this recording strengthens my conviction that you definitely should see a gender-issue experienced voice therapist or speech pathologist or ENT to have a look at your voice. I believe there is a lot to be improved on the voice as it is and I believe that it is a lot better to start working on this before you go in for a surgery. I am not sure if you have some physiological voice issue as well, since in parts of the recording, I had trouble understanding your words because thes sounded slurred. Do yourself the favour and let someone you have not seen before have a thorough look at it.
How long did you have a feminizing voice therapy or lessons for and how many sessions did you do?
There is a chance that things may be easier with voice surgery, but I think it is a bit of a risk to take. If you dont see any other options, then go for it and see if things turn out good for you and if voice therapy is easier after the surgery.
QuoteAs they say, we have a failure to communicate. From male to top end I have a two active range A2-G3 about 2 octaves. What I can use effectively in the upper range is C3-G3 and that is what I call my "Female voice" which would be a little more than than half an octave.
That still does not match up
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johnloomis.org%2Fece561%2Fnotes%2Fpiano%2Fpiano.jpg&hash=80d005b1477da483cc3ed3f6b0994eaf5ecfda88)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harmoniumnet.nl%2FImages%2Fuitlegweb.jpg&hash=5d59ab7aa8f31aac83fa2daa2760f6da3ff2fea3)
In this image you can see how much an octave is. As you said. The distance between the C3 and G3 is 4 notes and thus just half an octave.
However A2 is just 2 notes below the C3 - so adding that to the range still does not give you even one octave!
What happens above that range? There should be a whole plethora of voice options above that range - middle voice, head voice, falsetto voice,... can you not access any of them? If so, again I would consider visiting a speech pathologist or medical voice specialist to chek if there are any physiological issues blocking that area of your voice.
With such a limited vocal range and limited vocal control, I personally would be very careful about choosing a surgery. It would be sort of an "nothing to loose" option maybe. If I was in that situation, I really would try to work on my voice before the surgery.
Please understand that I dont want to keep you from having the surgery - if you feel it will help you, then do it, but I just want to suggest taking care because a lot of people are disappointed by voice surgery because their expectations could not be fulfilled.
Quote from: anjaq on June 03, 2015, 11:32:26 AM
Hi, Dena.
I hope I am not hurting you by this but I think you are right by sayingI dont know what your original unchanged voice sounds like, but I have the feeling you changed some things that are not really helping you. There is a lot of nasality in it among other issues. To be honest, this recording strengthens my conviction that you definitely should see a gender-issue experienced voice therapist or speech pathologist or ENT to have a look at your voice. I believe there is a lot to be improved on the voice as it is and I believe that it is a lot better to start working on this before you go in for a surgery. I am not sure if you have some physiological voice issue as well, since in parts of the recording, I had trouble understanding your words because thes sounded slurred. Do yourself the favour and let someone you have not seen before have a thorough look at it.
How long did you have a feminizing voice therapy or lessons for and how many sessions did you do?
There is a chance that things may be easier with voice surgery, but I think it is a bit of a risk to take. If you dont see any other options, then go for it and see if things turn out good for you and if voice therapy is easier after the surgery.
That still does not match up
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.johnloomis.org%2Fece561%2Fnotes%2Fpiano%2Fpiano.jpg&hash=80d005b1477da483cc3ed3f6b0994eaf5ecfda88)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harmoniumnet.nl%2FImages%2Fuitlegweb.jpg&hash=5d59ab7aa8f31aac83fa2daa2760f6da3ff2fea3)
In this image you can see how much an octave is. As you said. The distance between the C3 and G3 is 4 notes and thus just half an octave.
However A2 is just 2 notes below the C3 - so adding that to the range still does not give you even one octave!
What happens above that range? There should be a whole plethora of voice options above that range - middle voice, head voice, falsetto voice,... can you not access any of them? If so, again I would consider visiting a speech pathologist or medical voice specialist to chek if there are any physiological issues blocking that area of your voice.
With such a limited vocal range and limited vocal control, I personally would be very careful about choosing a surgery. It would be sort of an "nothing to loose" option maybe. If I was in that situation, I really would try to work on my voice before the surgery.
Please understand that I dont want to keep you from having the surgery - if you feel it will help you, then do it, but I just want to suggest taking care because a lot of people are disappointed by voice surgery because their expectations could not be fulfilled.
I came here for answer and while I didn't find them directly your questions have helped me find them for my self.
First I have played around a bit more and my voice can reach 80hz. A range this low makes me a base but I cap out at around 196hz so I am missing a little on the top end of the base. If I attempt to go higher the voice breaks and it is painful which according to my doctor is a sign I will face voice damage if I keep doing it. If I hit it for even a short time, it may take a day or two for the voice to return to normal so I don't do that. I do not have a natural singing voice as I lack the natural range. My voice is unlike yours as it is limited and will remain so even after surgery. The reason for this is my larynx is about 2 inches or about 5 cm across. it is designed to put out the very low notes, something I don't desire.
Because I am working the voice so close to the upper limit, I suspect I am unable to generate the harmonics required for a fuller voice. You can try and experiment where you are at the upper end of your range and I suspect much the same will happen.
As for slurring, I don't have trouble with people understanding me but I can hear it as well. Some of the problem is I was born with hearing loss. I can't hear anything over 5,000z and reduced hearing sensitivity over the entire range. The good thing is it hasn't got any worst but the bad thing it that I have pronunciation issues now and I had them as a child. Cleaning up my speech pattern should be a part of the work I do after surgery as I would have to learn how to use the new voice. I was also tired when I recorded that sample so I may have been a bit careless. The last week I have been running on about 4 hours of sleep a night which isn't enough.
The way I see it, if surgery will work for me, I am going to need a triple and even at that I am going to need some answers to my questions. Is it even possible to move the voice over an octave and put a usable voice into the Alto range. How deep will I need to dip below the female range. I suspect I am going to need pitching my voice as the surgery will not push a base into the Alto range. Singing would have been a nice benefit but I think I will end up with even less range.
It's a bit hard to face but voice surgery may not be able to move me far enough to be worth while and I may have to continue living with being outed every time I open my mouth.
Quote from: HouseHippo on June 01, 2015, 12:49:03 PM
Thanks kwala, my recovering very fast at this point. I did have the "tripple" done because I used to smoke and felt that was my best option.
Edit: while I have the time i thought i should upload a two and a half week update. http://vocaroo.com/i/s0jkPN1qsG7D
Just listened to your recording- sounding very good already! Thanks for sharing.
Hi, Dena
Your hearing issues of course do explain a lot. This makes it harder to do voice training, of course.
If your lower range is 80 Hz, it is a bass, yes - I was at 85 Hz by the way, making me almost a bass as well. But I am not sure if this affects so much the upper limits. As I said, even though I was also in the bass range almost, my upper limit was almost reaching the high C. I dont know the size of my larynx though except that it would be a fairly regular size for a guy. Is yours exceptional large by the examination of a voice doctor? If so, you may be lucky in one aspect, you could get a longer suture - 50% maybe, this would give you a bigger increase in pitch.
I think what happens above the 196Hz for you is that your voice would break into head voice or falsetto and for some reason you cannot do that. Is it known why that is and if it is related to your hearing impairment?
I dont know of course what the triple surgery procedure of Dr Haben will do. I can only speak about the glottoplasty, but for that it seems that it mostly changes your optimum pitch upwards - I am not entirely sure it would shift upwards your upper speaking limit. Someone mentioned that the CTA would do that however. As I said, the worst case I would fear and which you should talk about in a pre surgery consultation (ideally well before making a surgery date), would be if your voice is lifted up but you still have the cap at below 200 Hz, limiting your vocal range even more.
Quote from: Dena on June 04, 2015, 01:29:37 AM
Because I am working the voice so close to the upper limit, I suspect I am unable to generate the harmonics required for a fuller voice. You can try and experiment where you are at the upper end of your range and I suspect much the same will happen.
I think it is hard to compare, because at the upper limit of the chest voice I go into middle voice or head voice and in that I do have a different sound to it, I cannot really say which would be considered my upper limit. Of course if I use my total upper limit, I will sound very weird, as this is well beyond anyones speaking voice.
So my suggestions still are to see a different speech therapist or voice doctor to check your status and see if they can work on the upper range and head voice and get a consultation at the voice surgeon of your choice well before making a surgery date to talk about your special issues (hearing impariment, trouble with your speech, strong limitation of the upper vocal range) and if they conflict with surgery plans or if they can actually be resolved by it.
Be aware that your situation is not the same as common with patients of voice surgery who are reporting in this forum up to now.
3 week update. http://vocaroo.com/i/s04uJiGc7pBK
Quote from: anjaq on June 04, 2015, 11:03:43 AM
I think what happens above the 196Hz for you is that your voice would break into head voice or falsetto and for some reason you cannot do that. Is it known why that is and if it is related to your hearing impairment?
Because nobody told me how to do it. I was laying in bed last night and I played with my voice a little. The difference between my male voice and my current voice is that I tighten the area above my larynx. I was trying to power through in order to reach the higher notes and thus the pain. I left my vocal cords almost relaxed with light air pressure and I went between C4 and G4 after playing with the scale a little. What a joy it was to make those sounds!!! The problem is with C4 as my bottom, I am higher than I want to be with my voice. Never thought that would be a problem. I need to work with this a little more and see what I really have as about an hour of usage isn't enough to evaluate the voice.
As for the size of my larynx, I have little fat on my neck and I can feel it's size with my hand.
HH: For three weeks the voice is starting to sound pretty good. It is in the female range and complex enough not to sound mono tone.
I need to get moving for work so that's all for now.
House, you sound incredible! I hope my results are just like yours!
Thanks for the positive feedback ladies! Cadence your surgery is coming up fast or did you have it two days ago :o?
I have mine next Wednesday, the tenth! SQUEEEEEEEEEEEE
That's coming up fast! I'm excited to hear about your experience and results.
Quote from: Dena on June 05, 2015, 07:52:45 AM
Because nobody told me how to do it. I was laying in bed last night and I played with my voice a little.... I left my vocal cords almost relaxed with light air pressure and I went between C4 and G4 after playing with the scale a little. What a joy it was to make those sounds!!! The problem is with C4 as my bottom, I am higher than I want to be with my voice.
Yay! I am happy for you. Thats how it should be - you have to stay relaxed and not force it and just let a little air flow and make the sounds. Doing lip trills helps a lot with that. and if you use air flow, you can also make that transition happen - the zone between the G3 and C4 where now there is no sound ... with training and exercises you can activate this, especially if you manage to use a mixed head voice and not a falsetto head voice. But one step after the other. For now, just play with those higher notes, softly and gently.
My opinion still is, you should get a gender specialized voice therapist and see what you can make of these higher notes and how to deal with the passagio between them. It halps a lot to be able to do all of these things before a surgery, as post op you probably will have to use that part of your voice sometimes as well...
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1QleE69mEJY one month update. I over used my voice yesterday so I'm sounding a tad worse than I was.
Thats amazing. I must say I am a bit envious now... its so clear and clean and in a great pitch. Considering how my voice sounded after 4 months and even how it sounds now - this is pretty amazing...
I guess the multiple procedures done at the same time have a benefit.
I want it!!! Yes it's a bit rough from the surgery but the pitch and sound quality are truly feminine.
Thanks for the positive feedback, ladies.
Sounds great! There is no way I could confuse the gender of your voice at all :) Congrats on your result!
Thank you :) Also thanks for sharing your results from your surgery. It's what originally got me interested in VFS.
Aw you are so welcome. I had no idea it would be such a hit in the community! But I'm glad it was, because at the time there seemed to be almost nothing- VFS had such a bad rep! Glad to see things turning around and that it seems to be helping a lot of people.
Yes - the bad reputation really was what kept many away from it for years. I read now several posts in this forum who are a bit negative again, too. I think what really would be a great hit and does not exist yet would be a proper voice training program directed at post VFS patients dealing with the special challenges. I feel the Yeson exercises are a start but seem to me to not be enough or directed only at one or two issues. My voice therapist is at a loss as to what to trainw ith me, so she basically treaty me like a patient with voice hyperfunction/hypertension. I saw Prof Remarcle has totally different voice exercises as well - the key seems to me to find a way to use the voice in a relaxed way, using a full resonance and let the vocal chords swing fully, but not use the old low pitch for that and also not snap into a weak head voice or falsetto.
It would be great if a voice specialist would look into such issues. I totally would book Sykpe consultations ;)
Quote from: anjaq on June 12, 2015, 05:09:38 AM
Yes - the bad reputation really was what kept many away from it for years. I read now several posts in this forum who are a bit negative again, too. I think what really would be a great hit and does not exist yet would be a proper voice training program directed at post VFS patients dealing with the special challenges. I feel the Yeson exercises are a start but seem to me to not be enough or directed only at one or two issues. My voice therapist is at a loss as to what to trainw ith me, so she basically treaty me like a patient with voice hyperfunction/hypertension. I saw Prof Remarcle has totally different voice exercises as well - the key seems to me to find a way to use the voice in a relaxed way, using a full resonance and let the vocal chords swing fully, but not use the old low pitch for that and also not snap into a weak head voice or falsetto.
It would be great if a voice specialist would look into such issues. I totally would book Sykpe consultations ;)
I don't meant to be critical with this post but the german voice sample I heard of your voice sounded a bit higher than it needed to be in order to have that feminine voice. Among GGs a lower voice sounds richer than a higher voice. I am not sure if you are in the wrong range or not at the sweet spot in the range where the voice needs to be forced instead of being formed naturally. Middle C isn't a magic number and a voice lower that Middle C may be better for those of us with larger body sizes. If you would like to hear how well a low voice can sound, find a copy of "Yesterday Once More" by the Carpenters. If my voice could sound like that, I would be extremely happy. By the way, every voice on that recording is Karen Carpenter. That was one of the early recordings using overdubbing.
We wants the precious!!!
I think there was someone here from Scandinavia once who would be responsible for the precious (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,162116.msg1467434.html#msg1467434) :P ;)
Dana - I looked for these recordings. I am not a musician but I tried to match the pitch in the videos and the are not that low. A lot of it is in the range G3 to G4. There are female singers with a deeper voice for sure.
You are right in that a very high voice would probably not fit my real body as I am not tall, but big.
And yes - speaking too high as in the voice sample you mentioned (I dont know which it is, but I can imagine that there was one that fits your description) is not good either. Thats what I said - either I end up too low , force it too high, am in a zone that is weak or breaking - I have a hard time currently to find the right spot. Maybe its just the dreaded month 4 that everyone seems to have had, but I think generally it is quite a task to really find that "sweet spot" and manage to train it in a way so it becomes the new normal... so VFS definitely is no "fire and forget" thing at all...
Quote from: anjaq on June 12, 2015, 08:41:32 AM
I think there was someone here from Scandinavia once who would be responsible for the precious (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,162116.msg1467434.html#msg1467434) :P ;)
Dana - I looked for these recordings. I am not a musician but I tried to match the pitch in the videos and the are not that low. A lot of it is in the range G3 to G4. There are female singers with a deeper voice for sure.
You are right in that a very high voice would probably not fit my real body as I am not tall, but big.
And yes - speaking too high as in the voice sample you mentioned (I dont know which it is, but I can imagine that there was one that fits your description) is not good either. Thats what I said - either I end up too low , force it too high, am in a zone that is weak or breaking - I have a hard time currently to find the right spot. Maybe its just the dreaded month 4 that everyone seems to have had, but I think generally it is quite a task to really find that "sweet spot" and manage to train it in a way so it becomes the new normal... so VFS definitely is no "fire and forget" thing at all...
Karen Carpenter was a beautiful singer and sat mostly in the tenor range. I used to sing her songs in full chest voice before I started working on a female mixed voice. Their version of Yesterday Once More is in E major and the highest note is G#4 during the chorus if that's useful to know.
Rally? It did not sound that low in the video I saw. Maybe I just misjudged ---
I found this one which may be fun to listen to: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyOivCV0bcwjlp58zlgzYAWp0qWErwEn2
Found an interview with Richard Carpenter and he said the lowest note she sang was D below middle C. She used the chest voice and was a Contralto.
Ikate and Candace,
Same here... urrrrr I try and they will say thank you sir and I just think crap.. If I am in front of someone everyone says my voice is great.. I never had a deep voice..
I have to get voice surgery.. who knows after that I might be able to sing a song!!! LOL
Dodie
Quote from: anjaq on June 12, 2015, 04:00:00 PM
Rally? It did not sound that low in the video I saw. Maybe I just misjudged ---
I found this one which may be fun to listen to: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyOivCV0bcwjlp58zlgzYAWp0qWErwEn2
Two words: Nina Simone
Quote from: Dodie on June 16, 2015, 04:46:46 PM
they will say thank you sir .... I never had a deep voice..
I have to get voice surgery..
I am not sure these are the best things to combine - if the voice is not deep, but you still get sirred, it more likely is something else about the voice that confuses people, and not pitch - of what use is voice surgery then if it cannot correct the issue with the voice that you have? First of all it is important to find out what about your voice gets you sirred, then consider which surgery may help - if any.
one month one week - http://vocaroo.com/i/s1sS3PXOUSVD
I went back and played your initial voices before commenting and the current voice sounds female. What is lacking is inflection but from the initial voice samples I found you do know how to add inflection to your speaking voice. My guess is you are still not at the point were you can control the voice enough to add enough inflection or your ear isn't trained to what is needed. I can only see this voice getting better as you work with it more.
A question I have for you is are you using a chest voice or a mouth voice after surgery?
Quote from: HouseHippo on June 18, 2015, 06:21:51 PM
one month one week - http://vocaroo.com/i/s1sS3PXOUSVD
You are sounding incredible! Have you done any experimenting with your new vocal range?
I'm still not sure I will go for the triple, but hearing the results from you and warm body make me feel very confident about my choice to schedule with Dr. Haben :)
Sounding great, House!! Did Haben estimate about how much he sutured you up? He told me 45%, which has me a little worried that I'll be in a high end for pitch. But after croaking out some words today, I think I'll hit a good pitch right on. :)
Quote from: anjaq on June 17, 2015, 04:08:48 AM
I am not sure these are the best things to combine - if the voice is not deep, but you still get sirred, it more likely is something else about the voice that confuses people, and not pitch - of what use is voice surgery then if it cannot correct the issue with the voice that you have? First of all it is important to find out what about your voice gets you sirred, then consider which surgery may help - if any.
Well, as someone who also has a naturally high male voice that isn't always perceived as feminine, I can relate to this. In addition to pitch, I can tell you that in every outcome I have heard from both Dr. Haben and Dr. Kim I have noted a change in timbre. Of course it's different in every patient, but as someone with three music degrees, my ear is very well trained and I definitely hear a decrease in the lower undertones which makes the timbre a bit brighter and more feminine sounding even in the cases where little to no pitch elevation was gained. Of course all voices are unique and the changes are more drastic in some and less in others.
Personally, I'm not really doing this surgery to gain notes I never had, I'm doing it to make one specific part of my range sound more natural and easier to access. I'm also hoping that it will affect the overall tone of my voice a bit. It may only be slight, but it sure would be nice! My mean speaking frequency is usually in the 170s without artificially raising it and I'd really love for it to just naturally sit a bit higher. I feel having one part of the equation out of the way will make it even easier for me to resonate in different spaces and find the timbre I'm looking for.
Quote from: Dena on June 18, 2015, 08:18:31 PM
I went back and played your initial voices before commenting and the current voice sounds female. What is lacking is inflection but from the initial voice samples I found you do know how to add inflection to your speaking voice. My guess is you are still not at the point were you can control the voice enough to add enough inflection or your ear isn't trained to what is needed. I can only see this voice getting better as you work with it more.
A question I have for you is are you using a chest voice or a mouth voice after surgery?
I'm still unable to control my voice. Just speaking normally after surgery is similar to my mouth voice.
Quote from: kwala on June 18, 2015, 09:10:52 PM
You are sounding incredible! Have you done any experimenting with your new vocal range?
I'm still not sure I will go for the triple, but hearing the results from you and warm body make me feel very confident about my choice to schedule with Dr. Haben :)
I've done very little experimenting because my voice just Isn't ready yet. I'm healing fast though so I'm sure I'll be able to very soon.
Quote from: Cadence Jean on June 18, 2015, 09:19:10 PM
Sounding great, House!! Did Haben estimate about how much he sutured you up? He told me 45%, which has me a little worried that I'll be in a high end for pitch. But after croaking out some words today, I think I'll hit a good pitch right on. :)
I actually didn't ask but I'm sure you have no reason to worry, I think he's very good at what he does :).
Quote from: kwala on June 18, 2015, 09:39:20 PM
Well, as someone who also has a naturally high male voice that isn't always perceived as feminine, I can relate to this. In addition to pitch, I can tell you that in every outcome I have heard from both Dr. Haben and Dr. Kim I have noted a change in timbre. Of course it's different in every patient, but as someone with three music degrees, my ear is very well trained and I definitely hear a decrease in the lower undertones which makes the timbre a bit brighter and more feminine sounding even in the cases where little to no pitch elevation was gained.
Yes, that is very true and it is also something I am really happy about. I am not sure how much of this really changed or how much would have changed if my voice would have been naturally higher, but it definitely is a great change for me because I dont feel "out of place" anymore when I am in a group of women who speak. Before the surgery it was not only my pitch but also the "ring", the timbre to my voice that made me feel stick out. I think it has to do with the reduced mass that is swinging now which not only changes pitch, but mainly changes the "massiveness" of the voice.
Wow It is very feminine :o
Thank you!
hey ladies so this is my 6th or so month update and everything is going great. Talking is very easy now and I don't have to think about it which is super awesome.
6 months - https://www.dropbox.com/s/lyww0glrjdkqgno/6%20months%20after%20surgery.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lyww0glrjdkqgno/6%20months%20after%20surgery.mp3?dl=0)
Sorry for making you download the file. Vocaroo is awful.
all voice files - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0)
Welcome leader. I am at the 6 month mark and I think you may be a bit more as you had your surgery before me. I was very new to the forum and as you can see, there have been a few changes.
As for your voice, It sounds really good. The pitch is clearly feminine and you have sufficient inflection in it so it sounds interesting and it genders female. The pitch is mid range feminine so if you are ever gendered as male, it's because of habit of the other person and not due to your voice.
Thanks for sharing your update. You still sound great and glad to hear that your strength and volume have only gotten better!
Househippo you sound AMAZING!!!!!
Thank you for sharing all your voice clips! You were one of the reasons I went to Dr. Haben. I think posting voice clips on Dropbox is a much better idea since Vocaroo files get deleted after a while. Ladies, take note, please use Dropbox or some permanent online storage instead of Vocaroo. I regret using Vocaroo for my earlier voice clips and I will definitely be posting my next voice clip to Dropbox!
Quote from: HouseHippo on January 22, 2016, 04:03:27 PM
hey ladies so this is my 6th or so month update and everything is going great. Talking is very easy now and I don't have to think about it which is super awesome.
6 months - https://www.dropbox.com/s/lyww0glrjdkqgno/6%20months%20after%20surgery.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lyww0glrjdkqgno/6%20months%20after%20surgery.mp3?dl=0)
Sorry for making you download the file. Vocaroo is awful.
all voice files - https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/js9jtumq725it8b/AAABgeHOkLqXe8Jb_l2RpLLla?dl=0)
Thanks for everyone's kind words I honestly normally sound better than I did in the recording. For some reason whenever I start to record my voice I get nervous and my throat tightens a bit and I sound shaky it's weird haha.
Quote from: jollyjoy on January 23, 2016, 08:28:39 PM
Househippo you sound AMAZING!!!!!
Thank you for sharing all your voice clips! You were one of the reasons I went to Dr. Haben. I think posting voice clips on Dropbox is a much better idea since Vocaroo files get deleted after a while. Ladies, take note, please use Dropbox or some permanent online storage instead of Vocaroo. I regret using Vocaroo for my earlier voice clips and I will definitely be posting my next voice clip to Dropbox!
Thanks so much for telling me I am so happy I was one of the reasons it's honestly been life changing! When I was looking into Dr.Haben I found very little results and wanted to help if I could. Vocaroo is really bad for the reasons this site uses. It leaves everyone that was a little late to the thread to miss out on important information I HATE IT.