I don't know if this is common, although I've ran into a post-op FtM friend that this was true for. Anyway, I find that I've increasingly see my old self as another person. I broke down the other night because I realized that that old person is gone. In a weird way, that old person has died and I was born. So, I was essentially mourning my old-self.
Although my old-self had a not-so-good life, he was strong enough to go through a lot of stuff and strong enough to let me exist as I am today. I can't help but to feel gratitude towards my old self. I'm thinking of making an "in remembrance" book for my old self. That might sound weird, but in a way it's a way of letting my old-self go, pass on, and for me to keep living.
I really don't know of other trans people who has done a book like this, except my one friend. Others I've talked to usually have a lot of anger towards their past life. As for myself, I didn't like the situations, but through those experiences my old-self became strong and passed that strength on to me.
I'm not sure why I see my old self as another person. It's like I've started a new life and I can remember my past life. We're the same person in essence, but not the same person at the same time. I don't even know how to word it correctly, and I'm not sure if I completely understand these feelings totally.
I kind of wonder if my recent stint with me thinking I look boy-ish (when no one else sees it) is sort of part of the mourning process. Maybe, in a way, I miss my old self and the strength he had. At the same time, I'm my new self, Natalie, and this is who I am and he's a part of me, but gone at the same time. It's a weird feeling that I'm not sure others feel, or if I'm completely off the wall and not making any sense.
I'm not even sure why I've started to mourn my old self. It's not that I want to go back to that, that's not who I am and going back would make no sense at all. Maybe it's about letting go so I can go forward. Is it the year of being full-time that's bringing this on. Is it the fact that surgery is less then a year away for me. Maybe it's a combination of a lot of things. I just don't know why. I just feel this way... a sense of mourning, yet a sense that I'm moving on -- being born in away -- into a new life. An excitement and a mourning; a death and a birth.
I actually caught myself the other day picking up something that I used to own in my former life. It wasn't mine, it was my old-self. I remember saying, "This is Nathan's." Yes, that's my old-self's name. That person is a different person. That was when it really hit me, and I really clued into the duality, and how my old-self has become someone different, and has now passed on. I cried a lot after that. I still cry about it when I think about it. Someone died so I could be born.
--natalie
I'm glad that you feel as if you started over. I bet in a sense that is a bit of a relief as well as a bit of sadness. I understand that your old life probably wasn't something great, but hey, it had its moments too. Anyways, I hope that I too can one day join in on your success. Congrats on all your progress! :)
Quote from: gothique11 on September 06, 2007, 01:25:51 AM
I broke down the other night because I realized that that old person is gone. In a weird way, that old person has died and I was born. So, I was essentially mourning my old-self.
Bingo, which is why it is sometimes really hard for me to remember that no one else has that perspective when it is so... horribly obvious to me. He is dead and gone. It is really quite a lousy situation really, but such is what happens with this condition; Letting go of who we were.. him.. is part of the process.
Now, in the same in my perspective I am still the same person in essence; I am not HIM, but HE was ME.
*shrugs and sighs* I am trying to say I have lost none of that strength he had, an really I don't think that is that abnormal.
Just my thoughts, sand in the wind...
I was mourning the guy I use to be, for all he wanted was to be loved. He that I use to be is dead, killed by his own hand. I do miss him sometimes.
Beni
Weird. I don't feel like two people. I was always me. Just before I was more repressed, and wasn't getting to truly express my gender identity for fear of backlash. But I mean, what I have been struggling with, not as much now, but before, was just the idea of not being ashamed of those things, or angry, or hidden about them. Which is hard. But I'm determined to live my life not as a fugitive to myself. Those memories and experiences are me, and they have made me who I am today, I can't just dismiss them as another person. I don't even really want to.
That said, it would be a lot of awesome to be able to play with memories and time and self with that kind of fluidity.
Also they say mourning is a step towards acceptance. So you're probably on the right path towards reconciling your past with your present.
Muchos love.
Quote from: gothique11 on September 06, 2007, 01:25:51 AM
I don't know if this is common, although I've ran into a post-op FtM friend that this was true for. Anyway, I find that I've increasingly see my old self as another person. I broke down the other night because I realized that that old person is gone. In a weird way, that old person has died and I was born. So, I was essentially mourning my old-self.
Although my old-self had a not-so-good life, he was strong enough to go through a lot of stuff and strong enough to let me exist as I am today. I can't help but to feel gratitude towards my old self. I'm thinking of making an "in remembrance" book for my old self. That might sound weird, but in a way it's a way of letting my old-self go, pass on, and for me to keep living.
I really don't know of other trans people who has done a book like this, except my one friend. Others I've talked to usually have a lot of anger towards their past life. As for myself, I didn't like the situations, but through those experiences my old-self became strong and passed that strength on to me.
I'm not sure why I see my old self as another person. It's like I've started a new life and I can remember my past life. We're the same person in essence, but not the same person at the same time. I don't even know how to word it correctly, and I'm not sure if I completely understand these feelings totally.
I kind of wonder if my recent stint with me thinking I look boy-ish (when no one else sees it) is sort of part of the mourning process. Maybe, in a way, I miss my old self and the strength he had. At the same time, I'm my new self, Natalie, and this is who I am and he's a part of me, but gone at the same time. It's a weird feeling that I'm not sure others feel, or if I'm completely off the wall and not making any sense.
I'm not even sure why I've started to mourn my old self. It's not that I want to go back to that, that's not who I am and going back would make no sense at all. Maybe it's about letting go so I can go forward. Is it the year of being full-time that's bringing this on. Is it the fact that surgery is less then a year away for me. Maybe it's a combination of a lot of things. I just don't know why. I just feel this way... a sense of mourning, yet a sense that I'm moving on -- being born in away -- into a new life. An excitement and a mourning; a death and a birth.
I actually caught myself the other day picking up something that I used to own in my former life. It wasn't mine, it was my old-self. I remember saying, "This is Nathan's." Yes, that's my old-self's name. That person is a different person. That was when it really hit me, and I really clued into the duality, and how my old-self has become someone different, and has now passed on. I cried a lot after that. I still cry about it when I think about it. Someone died so I could be born.
--natalie
The thought scares me cause I seem to have lost my old selfs dominance a while back (not too long ago. He seemed really more on his own side with morals and didn't dissect things to ribbons. More solid strength.)
He isn't DEAD yet. But I fear the day when he will be if I go through with this anymore.
Quote from: gothique11 on September 06, 2007, 01:25:51 AM
I don't know if this is common, although I've ran into a post-op FtM friend that this was true for. Anyway, I find that I've increasingly see my old self as another person. I broke down the other night because I realized that that old person is gone. In a weird way, that old person has died and I was born. So, I was essentially mourning my old-self.
i had that discomforting feeling too, that there was some kind of duality, especially in the early days of transitioning. but i don't feel that way any more. if i put on a costume and play a part, that part is not really me. and that's how i feel about my "former self." it was just me, playing a part that i myself never believed in. by casting it off, i'm not saying goodbye to a former self, i'm just quitting the act, changing out of my costume, and finally accepting my personality as it really is.
-ell
I'm tied to the, "role" as you put it so well, maybe cause I liked what I could accomplish as him. I was the one who saved his friends when he could and lead them around on adventures. It seemed alot more personal I guess. Now its like I'm being led around.
I dk...Theres way too much to think of in this stuff. :)
Quote from: gothique11 on September 06, 2007, 01:25:51 AM
I don't know if this is common, although I've ran into a post-op FtM friend that this was true for. Anyway, I find that I've increasingly see my old self as another person. I broke down the other night because I realized that that old person is gone. In a weird way, that old person has died and I was born. So, I was essentially mourning my old-self.
--natalie
This is weird one........
I don't have an old self or a new self......I've always been the same person......I've never lead two lives or lead a lie.....I don't identify with the anology at all.....I haven't changed personality or looks and have always remained true to myself. ..
I know some people do change from one 'type' to another especially hyper masculine types who lived in deniel and were agressive and become gentle...
I too feel that I'm still the same person. I find it disconcerting when acquaintances don't recognize me because I still feel like the same person inside. It's just my outside that has changed and become more in accordance with how I see myself.
Even now I look at the few photos of myself that I allowed pre-transition and I don't identify with the image seen in the photos.
Dennis
Quote from: gothique11 on September 06, 2007, 01:25:51 AM
I broke down the other night because I realized that that old person is gone.
I caught my reflection in the glass of our patio door friday night... and I just stood there, staring, while a million sad tears just came flooding out.
I suddenly realized... I'm no longer male.
Why that would make me so sad, I don't know. I mean, this is what I wanted, right? And it IS, but... I dunno. It's still sad to suddenly realize you lost something you were so used to, and sorta when I wasn't even looking. It's kinda like I never got to say goodbye to an old friend, and now they're gone. And the reality of what I've done sank in (again)... my god...
~Kate~
I've never really had the feeling of the male part of me being a completely different person; instead, he was a part of me that I really didn't like, and was the dominant part for way too long. He could really be a bastard at times, and I was glad to see him go. When my legal name change finally came through a few weeks ago, we had a wake to celebrate his death!
It's very hard for me to relate to my former life. When I look back on it, all I feel is how much I suffered silently inside throughout those years. So much pain is associated with that time, I can scarcely bear to look back on it, let alone regard it kindly. I guess I'm still too close to it and need to progress further in my new life, to put more distance between me and my past, to get clear of the recent raw memory of that pain. I call that time in my life "the shadow." A pall that overshadowed my being and drained the life and meaning from it.
As I stand on the threshold of full-time womanhood, what I mourn is the loving relationships that have to end because they depended on my former self-expression. I love my family members who are going to reject me as a woman. It hurts to break all those family ties, necessary as it is. But my male persona, no, frankly it's very hard for me to feel anything but intense loathing toward it and I just want to get free of it.
I hope someday I'll become more able to come to terms with my past, as the thread originator describes, and reintegrate my past with my present. But right now I still have to struggle too hard to establish my life as a woman in this world to allow any regard for anything else.
Of course my old self wasn't a different person, but in a way he was. I like to think if it this way: is anyone the same person they were as a child? Yes and no. You're the same person, but at the same time not. I was a child at one time, but I'm no longer a child -- I don't think like a child, I don't act like a child, I don't behave like a child... I'm not a child, I only once was a child. I once was a child me and if I could go back in time and visit the child me, I wouldn't be that person. (Sorry if that's completely confusing)
I went through a part when I hated the old male part of me; however, over time, I realized that it wasn't the old-mes fault for being "male." Very few people loved the old me, and saddest of all, he didn't even love himself. It wasn't his fault that Natalie, the woman I am today, wasn't allowed to be who she was. In reality, I'm the same person, but I don't act like the old me, I don't act like the old me and I'm so different than the old me. Of course, I'm the same person, but not the same person at the same time.
The old me wasn't a bad person at all. And even though I found it easy to hate him at first, eventually I realized it wasn't him that I hated, but the situations that I had to go through as a guy. It wasn't his fault. At first I thought it was, and I loathed the male-ness, until I realized that I was never male, only acting on it because of that was what others expected me to do. In a way, this male character became a person (a very, very effeminate person, I should mention... my transition wasn't a surprise to many.)
Now, I don't act male at all. I don't wish too. That isn't who I am. I remember for a bit I not only hated my own male past, but I started hating other men -- which I soon realized was very unfair.
In a way, when I realize that it wasn't his fault that he was forced to be created, I realize it wasn't my fault for having a male-history. And when I stop hating him, I stop hating myself and any reflection of the past that's still in my face, in my memories, and in my tears. I stop feeling ashamed, I stop feeling cheated, and I stop feeling anger. I kinda feel zen.
Yes I have a past. And no, my past isn't the same as your typical female past (is there one?) Having a male past doesn't make me less female than I am now. Just like having a childhood doesn't make me less adult now. I'm no longer a child, and I'm no longer a man; I'm an adult, and I'm a woman.
Anyway, enough with my attempt at zenish rambling. LOL
Hmm. I have wept for that mask I used to wear. He wasn't a bad guy. He was rather brusque and shy all at the same time. He was interested in protecting me from a world that I refused to meet for reasons of my own.
But, note: "he" was a mask, not a full-grown individual with multiple personality facets. He did only what I needed him to do in order that I could remain hidden. I no longer need him to protect me. That mask is one I never use anymore.
I cried when he left. But, he was tired and was willing to wander off down the road and disappear into his other world. He did. I was left with only myself for protection. But the difficulty that made me want to be hidden forever dissipated. I was dying to resume my life.
The memories I have are simply me. Just Nichole. I have no recall any longer of events that didn't include me. It's a good thing, Natalie. Good that your memories are developing into memories that only include you. For, there has never been anyone there who wasn't female. Has there?
hugs,
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole W. on September 18, 2007, 10:22:47 AM
The memories I have are simply me. Just Nichole. I have no recall any longer of events that didn't include me.
I'm not sure how literally you mean that, but I've started to think that I'm losing my mind, lol... as it gets harder and harder to think of ages 1-42 as being "my" life, my memories. The opening entry in my blog says:
She muses about that Other Life, the one which had brought her here, the images and sounds seeming more and more like a fading dream now. So much lost, so much that was so real at the time, now crumbled into fraying memories, echoes of a life now lost forever. How could all that be gone? It seems so much like a lazy summer daydream now, full of drama and noise, and yet... a life lived by someone else who's memories and experiences were still alive in her.And this is proving to be rather prophetic now.
I'd LIKE to be able to say
"I'm still me! Same person, different body!" but it doesn't ring true. And my wife INSISTS it's not true. The "husband" she married is dead, and not simply from the physical changes, but an overall context shift. Explain it how you will, maybe I lost my "male shell," maybe I just feel free to be "me" now, but the end result is I am NOT the same person I was... and "his" memories just don't FIT anymore.
Whenever I think of "my past," it tends to only go back as far as a year or two, when I started all this. Before that... it's but a dream.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on September 18, 2007, 12:06:47 PM
Quote from: Nichole W. on September 18, 2007, 10:22:47 AM
The memories I have are simply me. Just Nichole. I have no recall any longer of events that didn't include me.
I'm not sure how literally you mean that, but I've started to think that I'm losing my mind, lol... as it gets harder and harder to think of ages 1-42 as being "my" life, my memories. The opening entry in my blog says:
I mean and meant it completely literally and no, I don't believe it to be delusional. I suspect that as someone totally accepts their life in their factual gender that it may be a rather common occurrence.
For some it seems to occur even prior to srs, but after the gender role she was born withy is fully accepted and the mask dropped. For others, possibly most, it occurs after srs. But, it does occur and it does not seem to partake at all of delusion.
More like recognition that oneself has always been the self presented and presenting.
Anyway, Kate, I was being completely literal.
Nichole
A little over a year ago I was writing in my blog about how we have to filter our memories to make sure we don't accidentally give ourselves away in casual conversation; you know, saying something like, "when I was in Cub Scouts..."
Anyway, a realization hit me as I was writing; I sadi, "Today I had an even odder experience. I was thinking of elementary school, and it hit me that I remembered myself as Annie. All the experiences were there: playing at recess, doing a magic trick for show & tell, watching a movie in the cafeteria; yet they were the experiences of a little girl with bushy hair and too-long legs. I was seeing things through the eyes of the person that had been there all along, buried deep inside, but still there."
cool, I do that too.
It gets hard when your with a group of girls and you all start talking about when you had your first period, etc, etc.
Quote from: Kate on September 16, 2007, 10:31:58 PM
I caught my reflection in the glass of our patio door friday night... and I just stood there, staring.........
I suddenly realized... I'm no longer male.
Why that would make me so sad, I don't know.
~Kate~
You know, lately, I've been stopped in my tracks by the 'stranger in the mirror'.....but this is no real stranger. This is me, has always been me, but isn't under the influence of testosterone.
Marcy and I don't mourn Mike, because Beverly is all the parts of Mike that Marcy loved the best, and now, those qualities are more distilled in essense.
I like myself better too. I love the way I look and feel, and I certainly like my temperment much more. I am happy most of the time, sensitive far beyond Mike's sensitivity, and very attuned to the nuances of the world around me.
Last night, for the first time, I had a dream, where I was Beverly, and there was no thought throughout the dream that I was TS....I was just Beverly. I think I'm finally going home, where I always belonged.......female in mind, not TS in mind, or 'used to be' in mind......just .......me.......Beverly.
What a blessed relief. I think also, that is why I am not going in search of answers all over the web, and do not come here as frequently, though I love this site. I think for the present, anyway, I'm very busy enjoying being Beverly. Biggest important thing on my mind tonight? I have an 11:00 hair appointment tomorrow morning :)
Love to all,
Beverly
I do not want to losse my old self - But in many ways it is already gone. That feeling of being fit and health and enjoying life is long gone - I just can not admit it to myself.
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Alice
Quote from: Annie Social on September 18, 2007, 03:15:08 PM
A little over a year ago I was writing in my blog about how we have to filter our memories to make sure we don't accidentally give ourselves away in casual conversation; you know, saying something like, "when I was in Cub Scouts..."
Anyway, a realization hit me as I was writing; I sadi, "Today I had an even odder experience. I was thinking of elementary school, and it hit me that I remembered myself as Annie. All the experiences were there: playing at recess, doing a magic trick for show & tell, watching a movie in the cafeteria; yet they were the experiences of a little girl with bushy hair and too-long legs. I was seeing things through the eyes of the person that had been there all along, buried deep inside, but still there."
That is exactly what I was talking about, Anne. Same here. I understand in a "rational" way, or at least I think I do that evryone else referred to me as "him." But, the memories have become me having had the experiences occur. A mom who ws not the birth mother, but who celebrated having children witht he birth mom. Grade school and high school as Nichole.
Perhaps oddest of all, G.I. Jane!!! Not that I was in a combat unit or even close, but my recollections are Nichole in the army. It is what it is.
It seemed a bit strange when the first memory like that occurred. But now, it is simply what is.
Nichole
I consider my pre transition self to be a whole other person. I was always male in my body language, appearance, etc, and I still have the same personality traits (maybe slightly more ->-bleeped-<-ish :)) but to me that person is someone I don't want to revisit. I didn't mourn the death of them, I celebrated it. I'm happy to be 're-born' as who I really am.
Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on September 20, 2007, 12:30:13 PM
I consider my pre transition self to be a whole other person. I was always male in my body language, appearance, etc, and I still have the same personality traits (maybe slightly more ->-bleeped-<-ish :)) but to me that person is someone I don't want to revisit. I didn't mourn the death of them, I celebrated it. I'm happy to be 're-born' as who I really am.
I've always been the same as I am now. My body laungage, personality was always very effemernite for a guy as was my appearance, so I haven't changed anything......All I've done is tweek the same person..
that was really moving.. i respect you
Quote from: Berliegh on September 15, 2007, 06:23:03 PM
Quote from: gothique11 on September 06, 2007, 01:25:51 AM
I don't know if this is common, although I've ran into a post-op FtM friend that this was true for. Anyway, I find that I've increasingly see my old self as another person. I broke down the other night because I realized that that old person is gone. In a weird way, that old person has died and I was born. So, I was essentially mourning my old-self.
--natalie
This is weird one........
I don't have an old self or a new self......I've always been the same person......I've never lead two lives or lead a lie.....I don't identify with the anology at all.....I haven't changed personality or looks and have always remained true to myself. ..
I know some people do change from one 'type' to another especially hyper masculine types who lived in deniel and were agressive and become gentle...
You are very lucky that you were never forced to assume the role of a male. Can you illuminate a bit how you managed to do that? For instance, in my case, I pretty much lived as my "true self" pre-school, I did girly things and had female playmates. But when I went to Catholic school, everything changed and I was forced to assume the male role.
Quote from: melissa90299 on October 03, 2007, 10:13:07 AM
You are very lucky that you were never forced to assume the role of a male. Can you illuminate a bit how you managed to do that? For instance, in my case, I pretty much lived as my "true self" pre-school, I did girly things and had female playmates. But when I went to Catholic school, everything changed and I was forced to assume the male role.
I never assumed the role of a male. And that was probably more out of stupidness and stuborness than out of opportunity. Throughout my school years i was constantly bullied and harrassed. A bunch of kids might corner me and throw stones at me, and i would consider it a normal day. I can't imagine something that would pressure me more to adapt then what i went throu. But the thought of not acting true to myself never occured to me. (Or rather, i had tried once earlier in my childhood and i didn't want to do it again) So i guess unless you let yourself be, you're never really forced to do anything. I don't regret acting like i did, even though it brought me so much pain.
Regarding the actual topic, i don't have a feeling of duality. I think redfish put it really well:
QuoteI'm not really able to split myself like that. Seeing as time is constantly moving forward, I seem to have a rather large accumulation of old selves - in fact, I've gained quite a few in just writing this!
Which old selves still stay with me and which have been severed off? I'm rather sure all of them fall within the former, whether I wish to disassociate them or not.
I feel like a new person every day, maybe a crappy suicidal person, but a new one nontheless. :)
Quote from: ketti on October 03, 2007, 11:42:50 AM
I never assumed the role of a male.
In what way? I mean... how did you act that was your "true self," which wasn't in the role of a male?
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 03, 2007, 12:09:39 PM
In what way? I mean... how did you act that was your "true self," which wasn't in the role of a male?
Well, true self sounds a lot greater then it was. I was insecure and afraid. I was constantly looking over my shoulder. I was chronically suspicious and afraid of everyone. Not great at all. What i meant was i did not put up a facade or adapted a role people expected of me. Maybe because i was already ostracized, i felt there was nothing for me to gain even if i did try to conform to gender norms. Or i might have acted on a million of other reasons (sorry for not knowing). As for exactly what i did that was not male. It is really hard (for me) to pinpoint. I've been indoctrinating myself as long as i can remember that there is no difference between male and female. Sort of trying to comfort myself. But even though that was what i wnas telling myself, i was always using females as role models. I was observant of behaviour used mostly by females/males, while telling myself that there were no such behaviour. (Maybe you could call this a duality of mind? lol) Pointing at a behavior and saying i think that is male, or i think that is female. That is something i cannot do anymore, my brain short circuits when i try. :) I'm able to aproximate it by saying: I think a lot of people seems to think that is female/male behavior (but even that is hard, wtf have i done to myself? lol).
Well, what am i rambling about? To let the other duality of my mind speak a little: I am simplifying a lot when i say i was explictly trying to adapt female behaviour and avoiding male ones. It is always a persons behaviour i adapt, not a genders. Whenever i come across a person i like i integrates a part of her/him inside of me. And i've liked a lot of guys as well as girls. It's not like you can divide every behaviour (or any really) and say this is girl behaviour and that is boy behaviour. We all have our quirks, and no one really fits 100% in whatever role they might be playing for the moment. But still i didn't want people to belive i was a boy, so i tried to avoid anything that people might regard as typical boy behaviour, while accenting anything that might come across as being female. I was trying to say through my behaviour: look i am really a girl, don't you get it?! Not sure how many really did get anything though ^^'.
Quote from: ketti on October 03, 2007, 01:53:31 PM
What i meant was i did not put up a facade or adapted a role people expected of me...
Thanks for answering! See, it's just that I've always felt a little "guilty" for not playing with Barbie's or Easy Bake Ovens when I was a kid. I DID play with GI Joe's... but I tended to make little homes for them and pretend they were shopping and hanging out more than killing one another, lol. I had those miniature army men... but I'd sit around all day and form them into little groups, trying to figure out who would get along with who. I played with Tonka Trucks... but I'd build these cool little suburban developments with homes and landscaping and try to imagine the families that lived there.
God, ya know it's sad, but even at age five all I wanted to do was talk about girls. Which was fine until I got a bit older, and social expectations kinda forced my friends to be mostly boys soon after that. And boys generally don't want to talk about girls - except to make fun of them - until they hit puberty, lol. And then I HATED their kind of mean, objectifying wise cracks about pretty girls.
Anyways, a long-winded way to say... as a friend keeps trying to tell me... I think many of us DID live a girl's life as children, though it may not have LOOKED like it at first glance. We did what we could, within the circumstances and environment we were stuck in.
QuoteIt is always a persons behaviour i adapt, not a genders. Whenever i come across a person i like i integrates a part of her/him inside of me.
Now that's interesting! I've always had a female role model, always someone in my mind I'd admire and wish I was her. In school, I'd always find THE one girl who closest embodied who I thought I was... in looks and personality.. and admire her from afar. In later years, it became a bit more abstract with celebrities and whatnot, but STILL. I didn't admire them specifically "because they are women," but just because they were what I was drawn to to BE, to be like.
So I dunno... maybe my "old self" wasn't so different after all ;)
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 03, 2007, 02:25:52 PM
I DID play with GI Joe's... but I tended to make little homes for them and pretend they were shopping and hanging out more than killing one another, lol. I had those miniature army men... but I'd sit around all day and form them into little groups, trying to figure out who would get along with who. I played with Tonka Trucks... but I'd build these cool little suburban developments with homes and landscaping and try to imagine the families that lived there.
That is soo cute!
Quote
Anyways, a long-winded way to say... as a friend keeps trying to tell me... I think many of us DID live a girl's life as children, though it may not have LOOKED like it at first glance. We did what we could, within the circumstances and environment we were stuck in.
/.../
So I dunno... maybe my "old self" wasn't so different after all ;)
I think so too. (both)
At least gender wise. (second) But you have grown a lot as a human, so of course you are not the same as you once were..
I pulled out my photo album 3 days ago and almost started crying when I saw old pictures of myself. I too see my old self as another person, it is me but also another person. It's so hard to explain, I wanted to reach into the picture and give that person a hug and say it does get better. And I do the "oh this belonged to so and so" thing too.
Quote from: Ember Lewis on October 03, 2007, 09:43:03 PM
And I do the "oh this belonged to so and so" thing too.
Hmmm, ya know, the freakiest thing is my wife *literally* speaks of her (now gone) husband as if he's someone else. I mean... she literally, actually thinks of it that way. I'll hear her saying my male name to someone on the phone and I'll get mad, thinking she's calling ME by that name... then I realize it's how she refers to "me" before transitioning.
Like I overheard her saying to someone tonight,
"I gave away all of [male name]'s clothes to Frank..."And it's not just a coping mechanism for her; she *insists* I changed so much this last year, both mentally and emotionally, that I'm NOT who she married. As she puts it,
"before you did this, there was room for both the male, AND Kate... you were BOTH. But now, there's just one person. Just Kate. He's just totally gone."Which on the one hand is sorta validating, and yet... terribly sad too...
~Kate~
I keep getting that I'm supposed to feel sad I chucked my old identity... but all I can feel is relief. I was miserable with it. Good riddance!
Quote from: Hypatia on October 04, 2007, 06:40:56 AM
I keep getting that I'm supposed to feel sad I chucked my old identity... but all I can feel is relief. I was miserable with it. Good riddance!
See, I can't feel that way. I'd feel too guilty, too ungrateful. Even with SRS, I don't curse my male genitals. They've been healthy and never gave me problems. It's not THEIR fault. So I feel sympathy for them, that they'll have to go soon, even though I'm looking forward to the changes.
Same with the identity. My name change is coming up in just over a week, and although I'm insanely excited about it, I'm also sad too. It's a death, a loss as well as a birth.
IMHO, I think it's *healthy* to acknowledge that loss. Healthy to grieve. Healthy to truly face the *entirety* of what's happening in a transition. There IS a price to pay, and I fear if I don't acknowledge that, then I'm not really transitioning, not really letting go of that past. If there is no sense of pain or loss, then I'd just be play-acting, pretending to be a woman within a male context, IMHO.
I think I better appreciate what I'm gaining by also truly acknowledging what I'm losing, if that makes sense.
~Kate~
Quote from: melissa90299 on October 03, 2007, 10:13:07 AM
You are very lucky that you were never forced to assume the role of a male. Can you illuminate a bit how you managed to do that? For instance, in my case, I pretty much lived as my "true self" pre-school, I did girly things and had female playmates. But when I went to Catholic school, everything changed and I was forced to assume the male role.
I tried to live as close to my true self as much as possible. I didn't got to a religious School or anything like that, but I went to an all boys school at 11 to 16 which was extreamely rough by any standard. All boys were beated up by several of the older boys on the first day. I got my head kicked in most days and called 'girl' most days and usually came home with a split lip or blood on my face......
...But I stuck to my guns because I couldn't change who I was. It was dangerous but I got through it. The same happened at work.....I was picked on and abused and clearly physically didn't look like the guys I worked with. I have had so many beatings and crap all my life and none of it has been an easy ride...
I haven't got an old self or a new self...just me...the same as I have always been....
and, and i still don't get why you'd be mourning your former male incarnation. i'd have thought you'd want to get away from him. isn't that why you're transitioning?
Quote from: Ell on October 04, 2007, 08:09:54 PM
and, and i still don't get why you'd be mourning your former male incarnation. i'd have thought you'd want to get away from him. isn't that why you're transitioning?
Watching things die makes me sad. It's really just that simple.
I'm transitioning because I HAVE to. Not to become a woman, not to lose an old male self, not to get a better life. I'm transitioning because I MUST.
It sounds corny, but I KNOW it's my destiny, my fate, my
raison d'etre for this lifetime.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 04, 2007, 03:31:26 PMIf there is no sense of pain or loss, then I'd just be play-acting, pretending to be a woman within a male context, IMHO.
I don't understand what you mean by that. And I sure hope you don't apply that judgment to others who feel differently about this question.
Listen, honey, I've already had my fill of pain and loss because my true gender was thwarted for so long. I'm done with that now. I need to move forward into a healthier, happier future instead of dwelling on the past. And I already made my peace with my former persona and its former functions, now totally obsolete. I made my peace with it, but that doesn't take away the torment it subjected me to. Enough already!
Quote from: Hypatia on October 04, 2007, 10:12:28 PM
Quote from: Kate on October 04, 2007, 03:31:26 PMIf there is no sense of pain or loss, then I'd just be play-acting, pretending to be a woman within a male context, IMHO.
I don't understand what you mean by that. And I sure hope you don't apply that judgment to others who feel differently about this question.
Of course not.
*I* feel this way. *I* need to mourn the loss of my male life, male identity, and the male future I would have had with my wife. No more intimacy. No sex. No children.
If I don't, I know it's going to come back and haunt me. That's a problem with my personality, not anyone else's. If I don't mourn "him," I'll know I'm not really facing up to those losses.
~Kate~
Posted on: October 04, 2007, 11:44:30 PM
Pondering more... you know what I think it is? And I'm jus being honest here, sorry if I hurt feelings...
But everyone saying GOOD RIDDENS! and THANK GOD HE'S DEAD just seems so flippant, so dismissive. I had a life. A GOOD life. Yea OK, It sucked that I wasn't female. But I built the best life I could, and that *included* other people, and their expectations and hopes and dreams built around those promises I made AS a male.
And for me to just say... YAY! HE'S DEAD! THANK GOD! is just so disrepectful, so demeaning to that life. He deserves more than a GO AWAY, YOU SUCKED ANYWAY from me.
Funny... this is what my wife has been trying to tell me whenever I jump for joy at the things happening to me. Yes, she's happy for Kate. But she's terribly, terribly sad for losing Him.
"Sometimes it just seems like you're dancing on his grave" she keeps telling me.
"He deserves better than that."And she's right. For me, my life, my situation... she's absolutely right.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 04, 2007, 11:06:47 PM
But everyone saying GOOD RIDDENS! and THANK GOD HE'S DEAD just seems so flippant, so dismissive. I had a life. A GOOD life. Yea OK, It sucked that I wasn't female. But I built the best life I could, and that *included* other people, and their expectations and hopes and dreams built around those promises I made AS a male.
And she's right. For me, my life, my situation... she's absolutely right.
~Kate~
yeah, see i don't get that. my friend asked me if i were going to have a wake for the part of me that was gone. i said no. my personality is one of the constants here that's not going to change. i'm just making a few adjustments to accommodate
it.
I can understand Kate. No matter how much we deny it, our old selves are a major part of the new people we're becomming. We can get rid of the old shell, but mentally? I believe we might always have a brief thought or memory of our old selves. Especialy if you've lived for a longer period as your old self.
I believe all the happieness and joy we might feel is contributed more to becomming who we want to be and not so much to 'killing' our old selves.
I look at it this way, I'm "evolving" into the new me. That can't be done without my old self ever existing. I hope I'm making some kind of sense. ::)
Quote from: Kate on October 04, 2007, 09:22:04 PM
Watching things die makes me sad. It's really just that simple.
Maybe we are talking about quite simple personality traits? You know how some people can easily part from clothes they don't use anymore and some are always saving everything "just in case" or for emotional value? I know i was the later though my first 10 something years. I was always mourning lost civilizations, dying seasons, well i think i managed to feel nostalgic about anything really. I don't know what happaned since then, but now im the total opposite. I feel euphoric about seeing/letting things go. I enjoy throwing things away that i dont use anymore (which i could never do as a child).
Do i make sence? What about you people?
Quote from: Karla B on October 05, 2007, 12:18:50 AMWe can get rid of the old shell, but mentally? I believe we might always have a brief thought or memory of our old selves. Especialy if you've lived for a longer period as your old self.
Honestly, I just don't feel that. And I will not pretend to feel something just because people tell me I'm supposed to feel it. That's where I went wrong in the first place... and I've learned from my bitter experience.
As I said above, I feel plenty of mourning for the
loving relationships that are being strained and broken by my transition. Those relationships were predicated upon my male persona. But that was wrong and it has to change. There really is no male me, it was just a mask... and now it's disintegrated because it was never real in the first place. I only care about the relationships, the love shared with others. The male persona itself was just a false face adopted in desperation to preserve those relationships. That doesn't give it any validity in itself, though. To be an honest, integral being, I need to form relationships based only on my true self. The false persona is nothing but poison to me. I would love to keep all my loving relationships, but they have to be based on who I really am, or no deal.
So Kate, maybe our feelings aren't so far apart after all, the difference being that I locate all my mourning in my relationships, while your old male persona gets a share in the mourning along with these relationships. You seem to recognize some vestigial validity in the male persona itself, whereas to me it was just a lie. I feel sickened at having lied to myself and others for so long.
Quote from: Hypatia on October 05, 2007, 07:08:42 AM
As I said above, I feel plenty of mourning for the loving relationships that are being strained and broken by my transition. Those relationships were predicated upon my male persona. But that was wrong and it has to change.
Which is pretty much what I'm saying too. I'm at a fork in the road, where one path leads through a continued "male" (in a sense) life with a wife, having a child, growing old together, picket fences...
And the other is the
Path Less Taken which leads to... well, I have no idea yet. The unknown adventure of my life.
And yes, I know the "male" path is an illusion, it simply cannot be, even if I DID take it. But still... other people in my life are also being affected by that admission, and losing parts of their life because of it as well.
QuoteThere really is no male me, it was just a mask... and now it's disintegrated because it was never real in the first place.
I took a deep breath after my snotty comments here last night (I am SO sorry!), and stepped back from it for a bit. I talked to my wife about al this, my anger, and this thread about mourning a "male self." I told her I think I finally get what she's been telling me SHE'S been going through.
She said,
"No, you STILL don't get it. It's not that I'm mourning the loss of your male self, it's that I'm realizing more and more that HE WAS NEVER THERE in the first place. My whole life was wrapped around an illusion, a ghost. It all makes so much sense now. It's not that a male didn't want to have sex, it's that KATE didn't want to have sex. It's not that a male didn't want to be a husband, it's that KATE didn't want to be a husband. There never WAS a "he," I see it all so clearly now, and yet I just can't believe we lived for so long not facing up to that."~Kate~
Sounds like a major breakthrough in the relationship, Kate, and a proper basis for beginning to build a marriage for your real self. My wife isn't there yet and I don't know if she ever will be.
Quote from: Hypatia on October 05, 2007, 07:08:42 AM
Quote from: Karla B on October 05, 2007, 12:18:50 AMWe can get rid of the old shell, but mentally? I believe we might always have a brief thought or memory of our old selves. Especialy if you've lived for a longer period as your old self.
Honestly, I just don't feel that. And I will not pretend to feel something just because people tell me I'm supposed to feel it. That's where I went wrong in the first place... and I've learned from my bitter experience.
As I said above, I feel plenty of mourning for the loving relationships that are being strained and broken by my transition. Those relationships were predicated upon my male persona. But that was wrong and it has to change. There really is no male me, it was just a mask... and now it's disintegrated because it was never real in the first place. I only care about the relationships, the love shared with others. The male persona itself was just a false face adopted in desperation to preserve those relationships. That doesn't give it any validity in itself, though. To be an honest, integral being, I need to form relationships based only on my true self. The false persona is nothing but poison to me. I would love to keep all my loving relationships, but they have to be based on who I really am, or no deal.
So Kate, maybe our feelings aren't so far apart after all, the difference being that I locate all my mourning in my relationships, while your old male persona gets a share in the mourning along with these relationships. You seem to recognize some vestigial validity in the male persona itself, whereas to me it was just a lie. I feel sickened at having lied to myself and others for so long.
Please don't misunderstand, I don't expect you to feel that way. I was expressing a feeling that I had while reading Kates post and somehow felt I could relate to what she said.
Yes, the male persona is a lie, I really want and need to be Karla. I've struggled with that for a heck of a long time, but I don't hate my old self either. I have many memories as my old self,some good ones and quit a few not so good ones. As Karla, I don't have any "yet". It's a little frightening. I sill have many things to face yet.
I believe that we all "basically" feel the same, other than some small differences. ;)
I'm glad you ladies have fairly good relationships with your old personas. The problem with mine was that it rotted from the inside in its final years. I still feel disgusted to look back on that and I'm just eternally thankful I came to my senses before it destroyed me. Now I'm healing from that and does it ever feel good. :) Awakening to my true self--consciously embarking on this transsexual journey--is what turned it all around and allowed my healing to begin.
QuoteShe said, "No, you STILL don't get it. It's not that I'm mourning the loss of your male self, it's that I'm realizing more and more that HE WAS NEVER THERE in the first place. My whole life was wrapped around an illusion, a ghost. It all makes so much sense now. It's not that a male didn't want to have sex, it's that KATE didn't want to have sex. It's not that a male didn't want to be a husband, it's that KATE didn't want to be a husband. There never WAS a "he," I see it all so clearly now, and yet I just can't believe we lived for so long not facing up to that."
~Kate~
There are few things in life that I find truly awesome and what Kate has written is one of them. The crystal-clear understanding of a caring partner is as rare as totally unquestioning love, which Kate's partner has for her. What a gem to see. Thank you for sharing that, Kate. It's most uplifting.
Since I began my transition in 2002 I have seldom questioned the duality of my life. I have no photos to hide or burn. My military uniform is gone, just like my gall bladder, to another dimension, along with my past life.
I have a friend of over 50 years who has had more problems with my past life than I have, but I understand that and we will always be friends.
When I am talking with someone who knows that I am a transsexual woman I speak of doing things in my "past life" and that is clear enough for them.
If i am talking with someone who did not know of my GID I just phrase everything as I would have seen it as a natal female. For example, I didn't go into the military because of the draft in 1970. I went in to get money for college. The positive things that were in my past life were done by me anyway so I tell it that way and leave the negative stuff on my exs, of which I had three.
I never had to bury my "old self." My old self was truly female anyway, so in that regard I am transitioning from female to female.
That works for me.
Wing Walker
Flying With a Tailwind
Quote from: Wing Walker on October 07, 2007, 03:12:05 AMI never had to bury my "old self." My old self was truly female anyway, so in that regard I am transitioning from female to female.
That's why I speak of my former male "persona," not "self." My true female self was in hiding.