I'm an non-binary person considering getting small amounts of T blockers and low dose E. I've been told that E often provokes a bad response in people with "masculine brains", which I'm guessing would probably include me: I identify about 30% female, 30% male and 40% not much.
Can anyone tell me what the bad effects of E on males might be? Gynecomastia is an obvious downside for males, but that doesn't worry me - I'm more curious about psychological and non-obvious physical effects.
I'll bet that loss of sexual libido tops the list based on how men think.
For me that loss has been a huge relief.
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Hah. That hadn't even occurred to me as a 'downside'. I can't say that concerns me at all - but then again, my GP was confused when I told her I wasn't particularly attached to my testicles. :)
Small amounts of hormones won't do much to harm your psych. I don't think estrogen would have a negative effect on the male brain, but I think the physical changes that come along with estrogen would cause a man to be dysphoric. If you don't actually want any of the effects of estrogen then it might cause you some psychological distress.
For me a trans feminine person. I have only noticed emotional changes. it's not like I suddenly am more emotional it's more that my body/brain responds better to those emotions. Like I cry easier, I scream when I get scared/spooked, and I laugh harder at jokes. They have all been things that I view as a positive.
Also I have a lower sex drive, and how I experience my sex drive has changed as well. Like I was only interested in girls but I was curious but not necessarily attracted to men before my transition. Now I am attracted to both men and women equally In fact I have a crush on a guy right now.
The way my sex drive used to work was I wanted to touch other people. Now it has shift to I want to be touched by other people.
Interesting! Thank you! I would see all the things you list as positive. I am also 50-50 bisexual, so no problem there (committed male life-partner).
Although I present as very masculine, I don't see myself as a "man" (I really hate being referred to as male). I do suffer from dysphoria already: wrong bottom bits - born male, should be female down there. However, I have no intention of transitioning socially (I'm not a woman, either!). I'm hoping E might take the edge of my masculinity and maybe make me a bit more ambiguous, as well as set me up for SRS down the track.
Quote from: kellb on September 14, 2015, 07:47:57 AM
I'm an non-binary person considering getting small amounts of T blockers and low dose E. I've been told that E often provokes a bad response in people with "masculine brains", which I'm guessing would probably include me: I identify about 30% female, 30% male and 40% not much.
I have a little unproven theory about that. I think that other than the CIS who are up here, all of our brain are altered in the way we process our birth hormones. This doesn't make us all transsexuals but it opens the door to the fact that non binary may benefit from HRT as much as transsexuals do.
I suspect in you case, the percentages could be off because you were raised as a male so society may have put a finger on the scale pushing you a bit more to the male side. The other possibility is that your brain may welcome both gender hormones because it is middle of the road and not hard female or male. Non binary didn't exist when I was in treatment and I suspect our understanding of the state may still be a bit primitive.
Should you desire HRT, I think you will learn pretty fast if you are comfortable with them, In any case good luck on your quest.
Thanks, Dana!
I confess I've often felt a bit like a tomboy in a boy's body... but I don't feel like a woman. Who knows? It's an interesting voyage of discovery, for sure. I rather wonder if doing well on HRT might help convince people that it's not just all in my head. I live in fear of being told to "make do" with my entirely male body, simply because I have no intention of transitioning socially. :/
Hey Kellb... I've been on estrogen for a week and a day now. I largely have the same fear of not being accepted... especially now that I'm wearing an estrogen patch, it feels like a 'point of no return'. My concept of "femininity" is a strange one, thanks to my upbringing. I've always admired "macho" women, and I detest the idea that transitioning, even to 100% female, would require one iota of change in my behavior.
I've had periods of extreme dysphoria because of the maleness of my body. My therapist, my wife, and my GP are all on board.
Quote from: kellb on September 14, 2015, 07:47:57 AM
I'm an non-binary person considering getting small amounts of T blockers and low dose E. I've been told that E often provokes a bad response in people with "masculine brains", which I'm guessing would probably include me: I identify about 30% female, 30% male and 40% not much.
Can anyone tell me what the bad effects of E on males might be? Gynecomastia is an obvious downside for males, but that doesn't worry me - I'm more curious about psychological and non-obvious physical effects.
Loss of muscle strength maybe?
Nothing that can't be fixed with working out I suppose
Just a question? Why would anyone with a male brain take estrogen? And how do you know if you had a male brain? I have never had much of a male ego. So does that mean I have a female brain. If I have a female brain, I wish I had the body to go with it. I don't have the male libido either. Hormones are bound to change our moods though I have never been on hormones except my naturally produced hormones. You should probably check with a doctor and a counselor to get some guidance on this manner. I am just your old transsexual grandma sticking her nose into something she doesn't understand. Be careful.
Here's my experience when testosterone is replaced with estrogen.
Like others mentioned, you can expect the male-type libido to disappear. The sensation of being "horny" sometimes / all the time, and wanting to do something about it, goes away for a lot of people.
You can also expect to lose a lot of confidence and assertiveness. Most of the dare-devil, thrill-seekers in the world are men. I feel testosterone gives you a feeling of invincibility, even if it's subtle. You notice it when it's gone. It's hard not to confuse that feeling with the similar loss of male privilege though, in my mind.
You become filled with a lot more empathy and emotion, rather than logic. You can't keep emotion at a distance anymore, so you will cry if you want to or not. You might see more value in others opinions, but also their criticisms. You're more emotionally vulnerable to suggestions.
I'm pretty sure there are relatively large flaws in the evidence gathering for the "male" brained individuals introduced to estrogen. But all the drawbacks are essentially good news for trans people. Also, it's ok if you reevaluate down the road of transition and decide you want to do more or less, whatever makes you happy.
Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: michelle on September 14, 2015, 01:46:53 PM
Just a question? Why would anyone with a male brain take estrogen?
A low dose of E is sometimes used for treating prostate cancer to counter the effects of T. You know some of the antiandrogens that MTFs use like Flutamide and Bicalutamide? They were developed for treating prostate cancer by lowering testosterone. I have heard anecdotally that guys who take it will feel quite miserable.
Quote from: iKate on September 14, 2015, 02:53:13 PM
A low dose of E is sometimes used for treating prostate cancer to counter the effects of T. You know some of the antiandrogens that MTFs use like Flutamide and Bicalutamide? They were developed for treating prostate cancer by lowering testosterone. I have heard anecdotally that guys who take it will feel quite miserable.
I actually just looked it up trying to get an answer for this thread. The actual mental symptoms when a man is given estrogen for prostate cancer are memory problems, depression and anxiety. Some of the same symptoms that hormone therapy for transgender people alleviates.
My first dose of estrogen was amazing. I found myself smiling for no reason whatsoever, and later discovered that this feeling was what most people call "happiness".
Most of these ideas about the deleterious effects of estrogen on the male brain date from the days when Homosexuality was illegal and was often treated by giving massive doses of female hormones in an attempt to rid the patient of their libido - now obviously to someone male and attracted to men this induced horrifying physical changes and massive dysphoria.
Now those who are trans will testify that dysphoria robs one of the ability to think properly and hence a homosexual man treated with female hormones would not only be robbed of their libido but also would become increasingly dysfunctional as the dysphoria bit home...
That is very probably all there is to it. Nothing magical about male or female brains per-se - just the simple fact of inducing physical changes that are unwelcome - in short precisely what trans people go through after their unwanted cross sex puberty.
The effect is that the body will look less and less like a male body as time goes on. A cisgender male who takes female hormones will start getting body dysphoria, the same way trans people do when our bodies don't match the way we need to see them.
Quote from: mfox on September 14, 2015, 02:43:53 PM
Here's my experience when testosterone is replaced with estrogen.
Like others mentioned, you can expect the male-type libido to disappear. The sensation of being "horny" sometimes / all the time, and wanting to do something about it, goes away for a lot of people.
You can also expect to lose a lot of confidence and assertiveness. Most of the dare-devil, thrill-seekers in the world are men. I feel testosterone gives you a feeling of invincibility, even if it's subtle. You notice it when it's gone. It's hard not to confuse that feeling with the similar loss of male privilege though, in my mind.
You become filled with a lot more empathy and emotion, rather than logic. You can't keep emotion at a distance anymore, so you will cry if you want to or not. You might see more value in others opinions, but also their criticisms. You're more emotionally vulnerable to suggestions.
While many do become less assertive I think in transfolk that it actually helps confidence. Dysphoria used to cause a lot of self confidence issues. Alleviating the dysphoria has helped me become a much more confident person.
In the past I've tried to find out if there's any evidence for cis-males being badly effected estrogen, but without any success.
You can find papers like this one, but I don't know of any studies into how men feel about it.
Estrogen action and prostate cancer
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3134227/
I even asked my endo if anyone had disliked how estrogen made them feel, and after thinking about it a moment he said he didn't think anyone had disliked it (and that's a lot of people). It could be everyone likes it, or that by the time he sees them all the non-trans people have been filtered out.
I do know that I'm terrified of testosterone. That stuff has terrible negative effects on my mind. Is it the same as a cis-male would experience on estrogen? I've no idea.
I sometimes wonder if this idea that estrogen is a test for being trans is just wishful thinking, but I've moved on and gave up worrying about it a long time ago.
Quote from: suzifrommd on September 14, 2015, 03:21:51 PM
The effect is that the body will look less and less like a male body as time goes on. A cisgender male who takes female hormones will start getting body dysphoria, the same way trans people do when our bodies don't match the way we need to see them.
Yes, this, plus the libido decrease. Neurophysiologically, I'm not sure we can make any conclusive statements. There is a lot of controversy in the scientific community about the effects of estrogen on the brain.
The sexual differentiation of the brain -- the small physical differences between male and female brains -- are gestational and driven by exposure to testosterone early in utero. Those differences can't be mapped to any sort of specific personality or emotional differences between men and women, and the idea that men are [xyz] because of their brain structure while women are more [abc] is currently held as outdated and kind of sexist. Very broadly speaking, trans people
tend to have a neurological cartography that's more similar to their preferred gender than their birth sex, so it's possible that the only difference between the male and female brain is the gender identity they hold. Maybe the NB brain looks between the two, idk. Again, I'm only speaking in averages and trends, so no, there's no brain scan one can do to dx being trans. ;D
Estrogen impacts mood in complicated ways (we think it improves it, generally?) and also it seems to correlate with better focus on certain tasks. Not exactly a strong negative when applied to the male brain. It's just that, yknow, lookin' girly ain't real nice for a dude. Take it from me. ;)
Quote from: AnonyMs on September 14, 2015, 03:39:40 PM
In the past I've tried to find out if there's any evidence for cis-males being badly effected estrogen, but without any success. ... I even asked my endo if anyone had disliked how estrogen made them feel, and after thinking about it a moment he said he didn't think anyone had disliked it (and that's a lot of people). It could be everyone likes it, or that by the time he sees them all the non-trans people have been filtered out.
It goes to show that endos are just as clueless as other doctors when it comes to hormones, even though it's supposed to be their specialty! Basically, excessive estrogen is incompatible with being male, and causes all sorts of problems for people who are trying to live as male.
Here's a description of the problems men can experience as a result of high estradiol, lifted from one of the hypogonadism forums I subscribe to (some of them may be due to the fact that increasing E2 suppresses T production and raises SHBG, which can put you in a situation where both T and E2 are at below normal adult levels; obviously this situation shouldn't apply to people on trans HRT).
QuoteWhen E2 goes up, it "makes you feel like crap and kills
your sex life". As E2 levels go up, SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)
levels tend to go up, too. SHBG attaches itself to testosterone and
basically makes the testosterone useless. In other words, you can have
"good" levels of testosterone, but if your SHBG is too high, you still
feel like you have low testosterone.
Here is a list of some of the symptoms of high E2 (you don't have to
experience all of the symptoms to know that you have high E2):
* Depression
* Trouble reaching an orgasm
* No erections while sleeping (i.e. "night wood" or "morning wood")
* Anxiety
* Panic Attacks
* Prostate problems
* Gynecomastia
* Water Retention
* Dizziness/Vertigo
* Increased Blood Pressure
* Decreased Libido
* ED
* When penis is limp, it doesn't hang low (it seems to try to crawl back up)
* Asthma like issues (due to increased water retention around the lungs)
* Trouble sleeping at night - waking up multiple times per night
* Lack of Libido
* Crying while watching TV shows/movies
* Easier to get angry (think PMS)
* Insulin Resistance (getting tired after eating a meal - if left
untreated, it can lead to Type II Diabetes)
* Larger stomach
* Redness on the face and/or chest
* Feeling hotter than everybody else
* Thinner skin/bleeding easier
Quote from: iKate on September 14, 2015, 02:53:13 PM
A low dose of E is sometimes used for treating prostate cancer to counter the effects of T. You know some of the antiandrogens that MTFs use like Flutamide and Bicalutamide? They were developed for treating prostate cancer by lowering testosterone. I have heard anecdotally that guys who take it will feel quite miserable.
Spiro and Finesteride were originally developed to treat an enlarged prostate as well.
Hugs,
- Katie
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ikate said it in another post, And I agree, It totally straightened me out health wise mental, physical, emotional.
I chicken out as androg, as I am over 50 and not gay so I still want to be attractive to cis women and I am very attracted to transmen so ? sex wise a erection is not all of it and I can still manage ok so I have never been so happy. I would love fss, electro, boob & butt, But hey, I ain't cait jenner either! m just poor white trailer trash chic. LOL
Clear ;D
Quote from: HughE on September 14, 2015, 05:21:11 PM
It goes to show that endos are just as clueless as other doctors when it comes to hormones, even though it's supposed to be their specialty! Basically, excessive estrogen is incompatible with being male, and causes all sorts of problems for people who are trying to live as male.
Here's a description of the problems men can experience as a result of high estradiol, lifted from one of the hypogonadism forums I subscribe to (some of them may be due to the fact that increasing E2 suppresses T production and raises SHBG, which can put you in a situation where both T and E2 are at below normal adult levels; obviously this situation shouldn't apply to people on trans HRT).
My endo specializes in transgender medicine so he's probably never had a cis patient who's on estrogen, and the context of the conversation was about people he'd had direct experience with. I've tried and I've never been able to find a gap in his knowledge.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear when I said "In the past I've tried to find out if there's any evidence for cis-males being badly effected estrogen, but without any success". I really meant the direct mental and emotional effects, not physical or getting upset because of the physical effects. I don't think there's any cis-men who'll be happy about growing breasts, but I find testosterone makes me crazy, and its not because of any physical effects. I know the common knowledge as to the effect of hormones, its all over internet, but that's not the same as research. I'm a big believer in research.
Quote from: AnonyMs on September 14, 2015, 10:38:06 PM
Sorry, I wasn't very clear when I said "In the past I've tried to find out if there's any evidence for cis-males being badly effected estrogen, but without any success". I really meant the direct mental and emotional effects, not physical or getting upset because of the physical effects. I don't think there's any cis-men who'll be happy about growing breasts, but I find testosterone makes me crazy, and its not because of any physical effects. I know the common knowledge as to the effect of hormones, its all over internet, but that's not the same as research. I'm a big believer in research.
I don't think there is any research into how it makes men feel, but the impression I've gained from reading what men on TRT say (TRT can very easily result in massive overproduction of E2 if it's not done properly), is that high E2 makes them feel awful. I don't know whether that's just through antagonizing the effects of T, or whether it has some directly adverse effects on their brain as well.
My own experience is that if my T drops much below 600 ng/dl I start to feel physically quite unwell, however I feel much better psychologically if I add in some female hormones (estriol and progesterone) to the mix. I'm using estriol rather than estradiol since it doesn't cause as much physical feminization, and I was hoping it'd be less directly antagonistic to the testosterone in my system. I'm in a somewhat unusual situation though, in that I'm fairly sure that part of my prenatal brain development occurred as female and part as male, so some parts of my brain need male hormones and some female hormones.
Don't mean to necropost, but I'd rather recycle old posts that had good discussion than impose to make a new one :)
So I'm still pretty new to Susans and haven't posted much (I search alot) but having restarted HRT 1.5 weeks ago, I kind of wanted to chime in with my dosages and feelings so far.
Firstly my Dr. is a GP who specializes in transgender, and I'm so fortunate to have her, and so close to home. After hearing my story, she enthusiastically asked me what I want to do. I told her go on E and anti-T. She then asked me "how much?" I'm like, errrr.... uh..... aren't you supposed to decide that? She understands my questions, and has a disposition that she knows trans folks so well she isn't afraid to actually have the patient take some lead.
She offered more E than I thought was "normal", I'm like WHAAA? The physical effects were immediate as my system was already primed.
But despite what I've read so far on this site, I'm still waiting for emotional effects. Multiple people have discussed the effects of a cis-male's brain on female doses of E, and I"m still waiting for the effects. I reckon 1.5 weeks is too early but I was thinking, what if my brain doesn't respond? Does that mean I'm not trans? Or will all brains respond somewhat; more than others?
I'm of the feelings of other girls here that I am counting on a lower libido, more feelings and empathy, and actually the capability to cry. (this was all evident last time I was on HRT but it took a month). Am I worrying about nothing (as I usually do)? Honestly I'm also counting on HRT to help with my self-Transphobia, and actually feel validated of my high GD. Like actually feel naturally ok with it to bloom into a woman both inside and out instead of self-loathing for a day that I experience almost every week.
:D
I apologize, I deleted my dosages.
You need to delete that dosage information. It's against the rules to post it here.
However, what your doctor suggested was what my doctor started me on.
The enotional effects people have seem to vary greatly. Im not sure why that is.
The effect in me was to remove the dysphoria and depression. It made me feel whole but did not make me cry more.
Sapere Aude
Quote from: mfox on September 14, 2015, 02:43:53 PM
Here's my experience when testosterone is replaced with estrogen.
Like others mentioned, you can expect the male-type libido to disappear. The sensation of being "horny" sometimes / all the time, and wanting to do something about it, goes away for a lot of people.
You can also expect to lose a lot of confidence and assertiveness. Most of the dare-devil, thrill-seekers in the world are men. I feel testosterone gives you a feeling of invincibility, even if it's subtle. You notice it when it's gone. It's hard not to confuse that feeling with the similar loss of male privilege though, in my mind.
You become filled with a lot more empathy and emotion, rather than logic. You can't keep emotion at a distance anymore, so you will cry if you want to or not. You might see more value in others opinions, but also their criticisms. You're more emotionally vulnerable to suggestions.
This is an interesting part of it for me. Estrogen has definitely made me more emotional, more apt to cry of course generally happier with no GD, but i'm not sure it has taken much of my assertiveness away or risk taking. I'm an xtreme sports person to some degree and at my age it is getting increasingly dangerous. I have not stopped though and really don't intend to. Maybe i am less assertive and i just don't see it. On the other hand i am also more easy-going and things bother me for a lot less time, in the past i would dwell on this negative or that. Not anymore.
Of course all of this applies to me, and i have been gender dysphoric my entire life. The last year has been a real eye-opener for me.
Quote from: carissajaye on January 23, 2016, 12:58:01 PM
So she offered as much as *mg of Estriadiol and *mg of Spiro to start
You can't state dosages on this forum.
QuoteAm I worrying about nothing (as I usually do)? Honestly I'm also counting on HRT to help with my self-Transphobia, and actually feel validated of my high GD. Like actually feel naturally ok with it to bloom into a woman both inside and out instead of self-loathing for a day that I experience almost every week.
You are worrying too much but don't count on HRT to cure your self-transphobia. That can take time to get over and may never totally be gone, depending on the person. HRT is not a miracle drug but it can do pretty neat things to the body and the mind too that might surprise you long-term. Be patient, relax and take it a day at a time. :)
I was an emotional person pre-hrt. At about 6 weeks I became much more emotional. Thursday night I and 7 or so people cried at group when we heard bad news about another group member.
Transphobia will go away when you learn to love yourself and make trans friends.
I have always been firmly in control of my emotions, something I learned at a very early age but the biggest difference for me (post surgically because of no blockers) was the lack of transgender feelings. It's something you don't notice at first but one day you realize that it's going and has been gone for a long time.
Eliminating sour feelings from dysphoria has been the main benefit to me so far, clearer head, sense of purpose, better emotional connectivity .... but not to the point of weeping more or anything.
Keep in mind ... that's a still huge change for a lot of folks.