Hi everyone, I am a new poster on this forum after being a lurker for a while...
I am on the verge of scheduling with Dr. Spiegel for my FFS procedures but I really need some support and reflection.
Here I am in eye blinding HD with some basic makeup on!:
http://i.imgur.com/SLjGpBu.jpg
I had a consult with Dr S. in which he listened to my flustered explanation of my desires and expressed his opinion on what I could benefit from.
His order of importance for me was:
Forehead Reconstruction
Mandible Contouring
Fat Grafting to Cheeks
Rhinoplasty
He said he would do incisions up inside the hairline and I would lose very little hair, and that my natural hairline is fine.
Now I am working within a budget so I can only afford to do Forehead Reconstruction, Mandible Contouring, and Rhinoplasty. Unfortunately I don't think I can come up with the $ for the fat grafting.
OR I could skip the rhinoplasty and get fat grafting to my cheeks and a trachea shave, but Dr. S said that my trachea was the least of my concerns.
I figure I can do my cheeks later if I want, but that I should have my rhinoplasty done at the same time as this other bone work so that my nose and forehead and jaw all flow together properly.
So, here is an album of some photos of me from various angles and lighting. I tried to upload clear ones that highlight my bone structure.
http://imgur.com/a/pRm66
I was hoping someone could tell me if I am choosing the right procedures, and if Dr. Spiegel will be able to make me look natural and beautiful...
I have heard everything from Dr. S is too conservative to Dr. S will be as aggressive as you want... I want him to give me that perfect forehead. I want a -very- feminine result.
Thank you for reading <3
Lana
Welcome to Susan's!
Before I chime in, are you on HRT? If so, how long. Sometimes HRT can make significant changes, especially in fat distribution in your face. I don't know that you really need FFS. But then again, you may want it. I can understand that.
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You are very feminine looking already. I would say a facial height reduction i.e. chin work is far, far more important than jaw work, your jaw is fine. And brows.
Forehead, nose, chin, malar and submalar cheek implants for optimal effect.
Forehead, chin, and either rhinoplasty or cheek enhancement if you have to choose just one of the last. I can't decide what would benefit you more, which is unusual, because sure your nose could be made more aesthetically pleasing, it's not in as much need for feminization as your cheeks.
Quote from: Cindi Jones on December 08, 2015, 06:03:42 PM
Welcome to Susan's!
Before I chime in, are you on HRT? If so, how long. Sometimes HRT can make significant changes, especially in fat distribution in your face.
Please check out the following links for site rules, helpful tips and other info...
(helpful links)
Hi, thank you for the warm welcome!
Well, I started HRT at 18 and stayed on it well into my 20's. I was about 6.5 yrs into HRT when I went through a crisis period and detransitioned without access to HRT. I lived as a boy for ~2 yrs but started back on HRT in August 2014 and have been on it consistently since.
I have some more pics around if you want to see when was previously ~6 yrs into HRT and 24 yrs old.
Glad to be joining the community!
Lana
Quote from: BellaSwan on December 08, 2015, 06:16:25 PM
You are very feminine looking already. I would say a facial height reduction i.e. chin work is far, far more important than jaw work, your jaw is fine. And brows.
Forehead, nose, chin, malar and submalar cheek implants for optimal effect.
Forehead, chin, and either rhinoplasty or cheek enhancement if you have to choose just one of the last. I can't decide what would benefit you more, which is unusual, because sure your nose could be made more aesthetically pleasing, it's not in as much need for feminization as your cheeks.
Thank you for the kind words. I have debated on my jaw, but it is quite wide when it stands out behind my smile. Perhaps with the cheeks and chin fixed it would be OK?
Dr. S said that the mandible contouring included the chin, the jaw, everything. Would that take care of the height issue you are mentioning?
I really wish I could get the cheek fat grafting as well... I could always sell my car...
Oh right, then I'm theory yes, but I don't know if he adequately shortens chins vertically. Anyway, with the fat grafting vs rhino - does your nose bother you? I do tend to prefer imp,ants to fat grafting when we're talking cheek bones though..
After checking out the post ranks, I realize I'm an uber noob here... I hope no one minds too much! :angel:
I do a lot of reading online, I hope I'm not stepping on any toes.
I promise I'll follow the rules!
Quote from: BellaSwan on December 08, 2015, 06:24:12 PM
Oh right, then I'm theory yes, but I don't know if he adequately shortens chins vertically. Anyway, with the fat grafting vs rhino - does your nose bother you? I do tend to prefer imp,ants to fat grafting when we're talking cheek bones though..
I was thinking about doing a cheek filler like voluma or something due to the lower up-front cost...
My nose does bother me somewhat and it has the hump. I know sometimes girls of my genetic background have the hump, but I want to be straight "GORGI" like Princess Jasmine ;D
It's not terrible, but it's not getting any cuter as I age...
Hi! When I look at side profile pics your chin and jaw height looks fine, but when I look at frontal pics I would swear you would need vertical reduction. I'm a little confused...
"mandible contouring" is probably jaw and chin work..
I think you should do nose at the same time as forehead. You can have fat grafting done later if you'll feel like you need it. Its one of those procedures that can be done under local anesthesia and sedation. If you find an option to save up some extra money, might as well do it now. Or maybe ask him for discount?
I would really love to see the final result! I think you have very interesting facial harmony, and I think you will look amazing.
Quote from: Lagertha on December 08, 2015, 07:24:44 PM
Hi! When I look at side profile pics your chin and jaw height looks fine, but when I look at frontal pics I would swear you would need vertical reduction. I'm a little confused...
"mandible contouring" is probably jaw and chin work..
I think you should do nose at the same time as forehead. You can have fat grafting done later if you'll feel like you need it. Its one of those procedures that can be done under local anesthesia and sedation. If you find an option to save up some extra money, might as well do it now. Or maybe ask him for discount?
I would really love to see the final result! I think you have very interesting facial harmony, and I think you will look amazing.
Thank you for the input! I have asked Katie @ Dr. S's office for a discount via email... but I have not heard anything back yet.
I saw your input about the different surgeons that do Type 3 forehead in the "FFS Worries" thread... do you think Dr. Spiegel specifically is a wise choice for me to get these procedures?
I wish Dr. Spiegel would have wowed me with some fibonacci golden-ratio face-beauty mapping software or some idea of what I would look like after the work. He looked at my bone structure and felt my head and gave me his priority list. He said his aesthetic is to kind of let the "bones speak to him"... which IS a good answer for someone who spends all of their time working with aesthetics and actually crafting people's skulls, IMO.
Dr. S is within driving distance of me, so he's convenient. I would get a consult with DeSchamps/Braly but I am pretty sure I can't afford to travel to SF and get all the stuff I am going to get done with Dr. S.
Thank you for the vote of confidence! I really do hope to be pretty when this is all said and done. Before I thought I could get FFS I was going through a lot of cyclical body dysmorphia - doubts about whether or not I would ever be able to "Pass 100%". I know passing is a lot more than just my facial structure, I have my body to worry about, mannerisms...voice... but I have been doing this a long time now, and kind of think FFS is going to "save my life" and free me from seeing this masculine image in the mirror.
I would suggest doing all the bone work first, then allowing it to heal fully before augmenting your cheeks, as the projection of them will change after surgery.
Quote from: Danielle11746 on December 08, 2015, 08:04:56 PM
I would suggest doing all the bone work first, then allowing it to heal fully before augmenting your cheeks, as the projection of them will change after surgery.
This sounds like good advice! Thanks!
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 08, 2015, 07:43:27 PM
I saw your input about the different surgeons that do Type 3 forehead in the "FFS Worries" thread... do you think Dr. Spiegel specifically is a wise choice for me to get these procedures?
For forehead definitely. I think you can expect really good result there. What I mentioned is in other thread is really up to aesthetics, and what specific shape and curve of forehead you look for. Spiegel prefers more flat forehead, as do Facial team, while Ousterhout and DiMaggio like to do more curved foreheads- not always possible, but when it is the like to reduce lower forehead third as much as they can. It doesnt go with every face type... this is not so much about feminization as it is aesthetic details. If you want to spend some time about this, compare the results of surgeons I mention to see the differences. For forehead alone I think you are as good with Spiegel as with anybody else. I cant say much about chin and jaw because Im not really that familiar with that area of Spiegels results.
To be honest, Lagertha once again makes an excellent point - Spiegel does favor flat foreheads, and in your case that might be the perfect fit. I think it would suit your bone structure better than an uber curved one.
My point about the rhinoplasty was just that if her nose wasn't bothering her, the cheeks would be the more feminizing option to go with. Her nose doesn't have a particularly MALE look. But if it but here you, then obviously do that first. Fillers you can always get.
I will also admit, in my rush to express my general dislike of Spiegel's surgical style, I wasn't taking into account that you really don't need much done. You look very feminine already. He might be the perfect fit for you. Especially if he's within driving distance!
Also! If you are from Massachusetts, and you have insurance, you should really look if you can have this covered. I think there is a certain state law regarding this. I know somebody posted something about this maybe a year ago... she had like 90% of her FFS with Spiegel covered.
Quote from: Lagertha on December 09, 2015, 02:21:32 AM
For forehead definitely. I think you can expect really good result there. What I mentioned is in other thread is really up to aesthetics, and what specific shape and curve of forehead you look for. Spiegel prefers more flat forehead, as do Facial team, while Ousterhout and DiMaggio like to do more curved foreheads- not always possible, but when it is the like to reduce lower forehead third as much as they can. It doesnt go with every face type... this is not so much about feminization as it is aesthetic details. If you want to spend some time about this, compare the results of surgeons I mention to see the differences. For forehead alone I think you are as good with Spiegel as with anybody else. I cant say much about chin and jaw because Im not really that familiar with that area of Spiegels results.
Thank you, it is good to hear that his forehead results are really good.
I know I want a type 3 after talking to Dr. Spiegel and reading the virtualffs website and comparing Dr. S results to the shave + fill technique. I was lost on the different aesthetics, though. I guess the aesthetic differences are hard for me to pick out without seeing more type 3 photos from various surgeons?
Ugh I wish I was from MA but unfortunately I am from New York. I have United Health Care, and I heard someone say that they had gotten them to reimburse for it, but in New Jersey. I believe the state plan I have here in NY only has to cover SRS and specifically forbids FFS. I need to call and get a copy of the specific policy I suppose?
Quote from: BellaSwan on December 09, 2015, 02:49:22 AM
To be honest, Lagertha once again makes an excellent point - Spiegel does favor flat foreheads, and in your case that might be the perfect fit. I think it would suit your bone structure better than an uber curved one.
My point about the rhinoplasty was just that if her nose wasn't bothering her, the cheeks would be the more feminizing option to go with. Her nose doesn't have a particularly MALE look. But if it but here you, then obviously do that first. Fillers you can always get.
I will also admit, in my rush to express my general dislike of Spiegel's surgical style, I wasn't taking into account that you really don't need much done. You look very feminine already. He might be the perfect fit for you. Especially if he's within driving distance!
It's nice to hear that I look very feminine! I want to believe that Dr. S is gonna put the icing on my cake :D
I want the best result I can get... if I'm gonna do this I wanna jump in with both feet... I want to be fully custom lol
I guess I need to look at more photos, I don't really know what the difference in flat vs curved forehead is. I like Gigi's forehead and watching her before/after videos actually sold me on Dr. Spiegel quite a bit. I figured our faces/bones were kinda similar. I know someone said they thought Gigi's jaw was a little masculine on another thread, and I would agree it's not super femme, but I still think she's rather pretty. I don't think she had her jaw done?
I knew type 3 had an "ideal" to go for, but I am kind of clueless as to the differences in their approach and different aesthetics. I am having trouble finding a lot of photos from specific surgeons. Tried to join the FFS yahoo group but I'm still waiting on their joining instructions. Maybe it's for the best? I hear there's some scary stuff there I might not wanna see.
I feel like as long as he's in his groove and having a good day everything will go fine... but part of me needs a lot of reassurance that I have done my homework on this. I am kind of a perfectionist and research everything to death, if possible. I pray for one of those really stunning after photos! It's hard to integrate all the changes and accept myself fully sometimes. I want to be able to immerse myself in living and not have to worry so much about it anymore.
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 09, 2015, 02:17:18 PM
SNIP
I knew type 3 had an "ideal" to go for, but I am kind of clueless as to the differences in their approach and different aesthetics. I am having trouble finding a lot of photos from specific surgeons. Tried to join the FFS yahoo group but I'm still waiting on their joining instructions. Maybe it's for the best? I hear there's some scary stuff there I might not wanna see.
SNIP
Privacy laws preclude surgeons from posting pictures without permission. While a lot of people will permit pictures of body procedures, for example abdomen for liposuction, they are less likely to permit their face to be shown. Hence they shortage of publicly available before / after pictures.
There are a lot of before / after pictures in the Yahoo FFS group, though most of them are years old. The Yahoo FFS group used to be very vibrant, with daily posts. Nowadays there can be weeks between posts. However it is still a good source of information regarding FFS.
Yeah, there were some people who posted a little unnecessary and too graphic images on Yahoo. Nevertheless there are many before/after results from many surgeons, going back 10 years.
As for the differences in forehead... I tried to say that type 3 doesnt automatically bring the similar results. It's the surgeon with his skills and aesthetic sense that makes all the difference. If you bother to check (Im not saying you have to) different surgeons you will notice different patterns of their foreheads. Facial team for example will usually more or less just remove the bossing part, and smooth everything out, to create an uniform shape- often rather flat. Spiegel does it in a similar way, but I think he is more often willing to go a bit further. Di Maggio will go all in, and not only remove bossing, but rather do complete set back of whole lower forehead whenever possible, and whenever facial balance and shape allows him too. I would think this has a lot to do with their aesthetic preferences. Di Maggio likes more curved foreheads, while Spiegel likes more flat foreheads. Like we already said, more flat type of forehead will probably work the best for you.
You shouldnt mention Gigi, because BellaSwan will go on a rant again...
I feel Dr Di Maggio and Suporn have similar aesthetics! Dr Van Der Dussen is very focused on balance and proportion which I like for everything but the forehead - to me that needed to be set as far back as possible with as much orbital rim taken away so my eyes could be prominent haha!
Oh my gosh, Lagertha, that was so offensive *cries* Hshaha, for real though, it's not that I think Gigi is ugly, but there's this forum about yotubers where people have posted unedited photos of her, and the tallness of her chin looks the same as before, almost as if Spiegel just contoured it my burring, rather than giving her the genioplasty she needed.
Okay, I see. I will have to try to look around at some photos. I guess I am lucky that Dr. Spiegel is close by if his forehead type will suit me best!
I dunno about Gigi and her chin. Does she say she had her chin done? Is it visibly changed? Maybe she asked him to go minimal on it? I guess it doesn't really matter - I just want him to fix me up right!
Carmen Carrera had her jaw and chin done by him. Also Jenna the one from Canada who was contesting to be Ms Canada had full ffs by him. That's to name a few. Gigi did full ffs by him, but personally I dont think she looks good at all. Cassandra Cass did full ffs with him last year. Ava Glasscott did full ffs with him as well. Try googling these names and you can find photos.
Some of the girls look too overdone, and overdone doesn't help with passing or blending to lead a normal life. That's why I personally suggest doing minimal work and fully healing, then reevaluate and go from there. You want to keep some features with a natural look. That why I suggest doing bone work only then down the line doing soft tissue cosmetic work, nose cheeks ect, as you don't want to come out looking like a wax figure as some girls do. I would personally suggest only doing your forehead, chin and jaw. Then after 2 years doing your nose, cheeks ect.
I had my nose done in 1996, it was the first surgery I ever had. It turned out perfect because it's not perfect, and because it's not perfect it looks natural. Also after 20 years of hrt, it looks so different on my face as it did in 1996. I will say 20 years of hrt did more for my face then any surgery I ever had. Less is best
Thank you Danielle for those names to search and for your input on the best way to approach this stuff.
I must say they look pretty good (obv.) but I can see what you mean, they're not-so-natural. You look good, did you do your forehead? I'm worried if I don't do my nose now it won't blend properly with my forehead.
The other half of the situation is that the money will not be there unless I make it myself which is likely to take more than a couple years considering the debts I carry. This FFS is a gift from my parents who recognize my struggle and I am very lucky to have the opportunity. So I am leaning towards doing as much as I can.
I actually crave the kind of image those models have. In fact my dreams are in dancing, modeling, wild success, "public consumption"... I might regret it later in life, sure, but right now I want to go stealth and dance in a high $ club if possible. Perhaps I could get in with an agency as a trans model.
Right now I am wrestling with the idea of calling to schedule forehead, rhinoplasty, and chin/jaw. Katie has not emailed me back yet... but... I think the cheeks can wait.
No I never touched my forehead it was never a problem. Stealth requires a natural look, so be careful. A lot of the girls I listed have an animated look and can't live stealth. Also the nose is very very important as it's the center of your face, I personally don't think Dr S does good noses. Everyone has their strong points. I am seeking revison on my chin after Dr Spegal. Surgery is a gamble.
Quote from: Danielle11746 on December 10, 2015, 06:38:50 PM
No I never touched my forehead it was never a problem. Stealth requires a natural look, so be careful. A lot of the girls I listed have an animated look and can't live stealth. Also the nose is very very important as it's the center of your face, I personally don't think Dr S does good noses. Everyone has their strong points. I am seeking revison on my chin after Dr Spegal. Surgery is a gamble.
An animated look? I know they kinda look like they had work done, but that might preclude them from living stealth? Plenty of women have work done, don't they?
I thought Dr. Spiegel would be THE guy to go to if you wanted to be stealth, for his "natural" look and "subtle" work... but then again... it looks like he really will be fairly aggressive if you ask for it.
You're right surgery IS a gamble. I think you're right too that the nose is important... I don't think mine's "good enough but it's close... perhaps he won't have to do much to make it look right? I am pretty convinced that I should have him fix it while he does my forehead...
Sorry if this might sound counterproductive to you, but it's really hard for me to see you needing any surgery at all. You look very feminine in my eyes. I don't see you having noticeable bossing... I don't even see a noticeable trachea. Maybe just maybe some cheek filling. The cheeks are perhaps a bit too sunken in the second picture and that's the only one where I see a hint of masculinity, but still, overall in my eyes your face looks very feminine to me and based on all but the second picture you look 100 percent female to me.
I can see now a bit of forehead protrusion on closer look, but I don't think it's worth fixing with surgery because your eyes are not hooded or sunken, your orbital rims are great, which in my opinion is the determining factor in how forehead makes someone look masculine or feminine.
Your nose is also totally awesomely feminine, don't see any point in touching it.
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on December 10, 2015, 07:01:27 PM
Sorry if this might sound counterproductive to you, but it's really hard for me to see you needing any surgery at all. You look very feminine in my eyes. I don't see you having noticeable bossing... I don't even see a noticeable trachea. Maybe just maybe some cheek filling. The cheeks are perhaps a bit too sunken in the second picture and that's the only one where I see a hint of masculinity, but still, overall in my eyes your face looks very feminine to me and based on all but the second picture you look 100 percent female to me.
I can see now a bit of forehead protrusion on closer look, but I don't think it's worth fixing with surgery because your eyes are not hooded or sunken, your orbital rims are great, which in my opinion is the determining factor in how forehead makes someone look masculine or feminine.
Your nose is also totally awesomely feminine, don't see any point in touching it.
Hmm, not at all... I welcome your opinion. I've been told this by friends and family, and had friends of my parents' tell them the same.
When I look at myself in those photos I don't see a pretty woman... I sometimes still have trouble passing and I think my face is sometimes the issue... especially my forehead and jaw/chin. Perhaps I should put the rhinoplasty money into breasts, but I figure I want the whole package, especially if I wanna be a dancer or a model. :/
I looked at the pictures again some more, and I think on second thought what mattered more in the second picture is the flat chin line.
So I would perhaps suggest to go first for mandible contouring and only after that consider either cheek work or forehead reconstruction, and I doubt there would be a need to do both after mandible contouring. Even so, I felt like I had to try and look for masculinity in your face to spot it. If I wasn't trying hard to look for masculinity in your face I wouldn't have noticed it which is why I'm not sure you need surgery at all.
Again, as far as your nose, it has a tiny little bump, but that doesn't stop it from looking ultra feminine in my eyes. I don't think it's worth touching it. It's not thick, it has a nice upward angle. I would put nose at the level of nuance correction, much like your seemingly none existent and if it does exist it's really tiny and hidden trachea... then again if you do forehead reconstruction that might necessarily entail changing the nose to fit with the new forehead.
Regarding breasts, I'm not objective because I'm not much of a breast person. To me personally, breasts aren't what make or break being recognized as female. Lots of cis women have naturally tiny breasts. For me personally, breasts is the last priority after face is fixed, and even then I might not care, but that's just me. Then again, for me my face does not look nearly as passable as yours, whereas for you the face problems are at the level of nuance, so breast augmentation might help shift the balance so that people would never "believe" the masculine nuances even if they spotted them... whereas in my case, breast augmentation won't help at all until my face is significantly different.
Even if you want to eventually do the whole package deal, if your funds are limited now you should do what gives the biggest results first in my opinion... but since everything in your face is in the level of nuance, it's hard to say which part will give the biggest impact.
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 10, 2015, 06:52:59 PM
An animated look? I know they kinda look like they had work done, but that might preclude them from living stealth? Plenty of women have work done, don't they?
I thought Dr. Spiegel would be THE guy to go to if you wanted to be stealth, for his "natural" look and "subtle" work... but then again... it looks like he really will be fairly aggressive if you ask for it.
You're right surgery IS a gamble. I think you're right too that the nose is important... I don't think mine's "good enough but it's close... perhaps he won't have to do much to make it look right? I am pretty convinced that I should have him fix it while he does my forehead...
An animated look meaning a bit over done. Yes many women have work done. But when someone is 6 feet tall, has large hands and feet, a deeper then usually voice, combined with a lot of facial surgery, I think the masses can do the math. So I am saying less sometimes is more. I have a friend who hasn't had any work done and passes wonderfully, she isn't a beauty but she is passable, if she did full ffs and tried for a very beautiful astetic she wouldn't be as passable. Remember beauty and passing are two different things, some girls have both and others have one or the other, and some have neither.
Wow Danielle, I see what you mean now.
I am not quite that tall but still.. >.>
http://www.windsorstar.com/technology/space/cms/binary/6644415.jpg?size=640x420
This is not a very flattering photo of Jenna.
I pass fairly well. I certainly don't want to pass less often after FFS!
I want to be beautiful and pass... not be misgendered or obvious. My hands and feet are on the larger side of the "normal" female spectrum (US 11 shoes) and they are pretty femme... my voice is decent...
I want the icing on my cake, damnit... I just want to be hot.
Quote from: Ruth Ruthless on December 10, 2015, 08:22:05 PM
I looked at the pictures again some more, and I think on second thought what mattered more in the second picture is the flat chin line.
So I would perhaps suggest to go first for mandible contouring and only after that consider either cheek work or forehead reconstruction, and I doubt there would be a need to do both after mandible contouring. Even so, I felt like I had to try and look for masculinity in your face to spot it. If I wasn't trying hard to look for masculinity in your face I wouldn't have noticed it which is why I'm not sure you need surgery at all.
Again, as far as your nose, it has a tiny little bump, but that doesn't stop it from looking ultra feminine in my eyes. I don't think it's worth touching it. It's not thick, it has a nice upward angle. I would put nose at the level of nuance correction, much like your seemingly none existent and if it does exist it's really tiny and hidden trachea... then again if you do forehead reconstruction that might necessarily entail changing the nose to fit with the new forehead.
Regarding breasts, I'm not objective because I'm not much of a breast person. To me personally, breasts aren't what make or break being recognized as female. Lots of cis women have naturally tiny breasts. For me personally, breasts is the last priority after face is fixed, and even then I might not care, but that's just me. Then again, for me my face does not look nearly as passable as yours, whereas for you the face problems are at the level of nuance, so breast augmentation might help shift the balance so that people would never "believe" the masculine nuances even if they spotted them... whereas in my case, breast augmentation won't help at all until my face is significantly different.
Even if you want to eventually do the whole package deal, if your funds are limited now you should do what gives the biggest results first in my opinion... but since everything in your face is in the level of nuance, it's hard to say which part will give the biggest impact.
Thank you for the input... I really am quite convinced I want the forehead reconstruction... I think my frontal sinus is pretty pronounced in my profile view... maybe I'm hypersensitive...? Maybe I should have Alexandra do a photo of me to see what parts of my face fits/doesn't fit into the female range, and see what I might look like.
The mandible I am also pretty sold on... especially the height and shape of my chin and the width of my jaw vs. the sunken in cheeks. I don't mind a fairly strong jaw on a hot woman, however.
The nose... I don't know. You and Danielle have me thinking about whether I want to touch it or not. It's a lot of money, but I would hate to regret not doing it with my forehead later if/when I don't feel like my nose is "good enough".
Like I said, I want it all, I am a perfectionist, I want to pass and be beautiful. I don't want to overdo it. I have a hard time buying a $60 waist cincher on Amazon... choosing what to do with my face is overwhelming!
Dr. Spiegel did say that his priorities would be forehead, mandible, then cheeks, then nose...
I have been leaning towards the nose because of
1.) the money maybe not being there later and fillers for cheeks being so much cheaper
2.) the nose and forehead look best if they're done together ??? ??? ??? is that true?
If I did forehead, mandible, and cheeks (or got a filler) I would have money for other transition things.
Breasts, I have decent natural ones, I am not rushing to get them done, but it might help me achieve my goals...
Maybe some more laser, laser on my bikini line, some skin resurfacing type stuff...? I don't know...?
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 10, 2015, 11:29:00 PM
Wow Danielle, I see what you mean now.
I am not quite that tall but still.. >.>
http://www.windsorstar.com/technology/space/cms/binary/6644415.jpg?size=640x420
This is not a very flattering photo of Jenna.
I pass fairly well. I certainly don't want to pass less often after FFS!
I want to be beautiful and pass... not be misgendered or obvious. My hands and feet are on the larger side of the "normal" female spectrum (US 11 shoes) and they are pretty femme... my voice is decent...
I want the icing on my cake, damnit... I just want to be hot.
Yes as with Jenna, most girls with a lot of work done look like they have had a lot of work done, and sometimes the work can look odd. Like I always said hrt and a strong regime for many many years did more for my face then any surgery I have ever had. It will give a softness that no surgery can achieve, but it's som thing that takes a good 10 yrs. Good skin and good hair do a lot also. I do believe your nose is something you should have done, but I think you should let your face settle after bone work before having it done. Just personal thoughts.
Danielle, here I am after 6 years of HRT, starting at age 18...
http://imgur.com/1kevmNC
That was before I detransitioned for ~2 yrs.
I try to take care of my skin and hair, sometimes I do better than others. You're right they make a big difference! As does HRT.
I don't want to look like I've had much (if anything) done, but, I think I would like to have my nose done as well as these other things... I just don't know if I would rather trust Dr. Spiegel to knock out everything at once, or have another surgeon do a rhinoplasty later on down the road. A rhinoplasty is certainly not as hard to acquire as this bone work.
I guess it's all a compromise :) I have to take some risk by doing this...
What defines a lot? Is Forehead/nose/mandible a lot?
Did Jenna have more than just forehead/mandible/nose/cheeks? I still think Gigi looks decent but I am starting to see how her look isn't the ideal. I would rather look like her than me, though. I can always hope that I end up looking just right... ha.
I do like Jenna's look better, most of her pics look really good to me. Ava Glasscott looks good too but a little less natural. Neither is entirely natural.
So I did some meditation today.
I think my forehead and jaw/chin are at the level of a need.
I think my nose is a want... however... it's definitely a want...
I think Dr. S is going to do a good job on whatever I ask him to do.
The nose would be like the only soft tissue work on my face, I don't think it'll make a big difference for me looking plasticy if I get it done now vs later. Dr. S has that natural look reputation. He's so experienced, as long as he's having a good day and he's feeling the work I bet he will do amazing.
I can pass now like almost all the time. Clubs, the beach, swimming pool, bathrooms, Doctor offices. I look decent in makeup as long as it's well done and not "overdone".
The small % of the time in which I don't pass has definitely gotten under my skin. I think a lot of it I think is my confidence, letting my voice drop, and integration of my Self (feeling natural).
I really don't think Dr. S is gonna make me look plastic and if he did I think people would just assume I am a woman who had work done. I mean I've worked in the public eye as a salesperson in all manner of gender presentation, from straight male to completely androgynous, to my best feminine presentation. A lot of it is just perspective. I think maybe I'm overthinking this, blowing it out of the water.
I think there will always be someone that can spot me as a trans person no matter what I do to the total package. I don't think looking a little plastic is going to ruin me, if it happens. I'm not getting like a lip lift or fat in my lips.
I'd say I'm gonna wait on the cheeks but after all this I'm pretty set on scheduling forehead/nose/mandible. I appreciate all the input, ladies. I am totally open to hearing more opinions.
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 11, 2015, 12:15:12 AM
2.) the nose and forehead look best if they're done together ??? ??? ??? is that true?
Download the kindle FFS book by Dr. O. and read his explanation as to why it is essential to do the nose at the same time as the forehead.
Quote from: myfairlady49 on December 11, 2015, 07:30:27 PM
Download the kindle FFS book by Dr. O. and read his explanation as to why it is essential to do the nose at the same time as the forehead.
Wow, thank you for pointing me to this... I will definitely check it out!
My forehead surgeon tells me the nose has to come last. I'm afraid he might be saying that only because he doesn't do nose surgery, and beaurecratically there is no way to get them done at once since they are different surgeons in different departments, and I'm having trouble getting them funded as it is... the insurance company waits until a day before the surgery to decide yes or no (so far has been "no" or "still being discussed" every time a surgery date came up) so even if I got the doctors to agree to meet on the same day and do both, I have no guarantee the insurance company will authorize both at once or even one of them.
I understand it's very important at least not to do nose before forehead.
Though it does seem to me quite logical that it's most ideal to do both at once.
Do you think it would be ok to do forehead and then nose?
it's not just ideal to do nose at the same time, with some Type III foreheads rhinoplasty really should be done at the same time. For example my forehead. If my nose was not done I was told there would be an apparent notch at the top of my nose.
I've heard it's preferable to do both at he same time and I've heard it's it necessary- never have I heard it's preferable to do them separately
Wow, yeah I definitely want to get my nose done at the same time then.
I'm about to schedule. I considered (and contacted the office of) DeSchamps-Braly, but I am fairly confident I could not travel to SF from NY and also afford forehead/rhinoplasty/mandible if that is basically taking up my entire budget to drive to Boston for Spiegel. Right?
Honestly, I wouldn't go with DB if he was far out if my budget! You always need to be prepared for what ifs with surgery!
Yeah Bella, I don't know exactly what the price difference would be, but I have a friend who got a consult with DB for $50k. Now, she needs some more soft tissue work than I do, and her consult with Spiegel was somewhat less than DB. Spiegel for me was still right up around $40k (forehead, mandible, rhino, cheeks, trach) so I can't see DB being affordable.
However obviously I can only afford to do the forehead/rhino/mandible (~$30k). This is driving to Boston. Flying to SF and lodging would really eat up $$.
The office of DB told me that with travel and stuff that my cost would almost certainly come out higher. If it was -marginally- higher, I might be able to pay the extra to justify the specialties of DB and Dr. O together. I'm pretty maxed out though.
If someone like Dr. Van Der Dussen was affordable including travel, and had better qualifications, I could maybe do that. I hear procedures outside the US are less expensive, however, how is Belgium? It would be hard to convince parents to fly out of the country (and spend money outside the US for liability worries etc).
DeSchamps-Braly seems like he would be ideal and I have a friend in SF. I don't know if I even like his aesthetic though - Not enough information available. I've seen only little thumbnails. I am sure Dr. O and DB are great though.
I thought Spiegel was a craniofacial surgeon before I started this. I don't know why. When I started researching this a month ago I was looking at Dr. Z as well. Now I see there are very big differences in these surgeons.
For reference in Europe for type 3 forehead, rhinoplasty, jaw contouring, genioplasty and trachea shave with Facial Team in Spain you are looking at around $25k going on the current exchange rate.
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 12, 2015, 12:13:31 PM
If someone like Dr. Van Der Dussen was affordable including travel, and had better qualifications, I could maybe do that. I hear procedures outside the US are less expensive, however, how is Belgium? It would be hard to convince parents to fly out of the country (and spend money outside the US for liability worries etc).
Flight tickets can be expensive if you dont take time to reseach.. Your can find return flight tickets from Europe to US and back to Europe for as little as $300... Even if you dont find one of those deals in your timeline, there are tickets regularly available at around $400 to east coast and up to $600-700 to west coast. I think the flight from US, are likely to be little more expensive.. you are looking at like $250-300 more expensive return ticket. So its not that big of deal either.
Im not exactly shure what do you mean as liability worries... Most of these top FFS surgeons are very reliable and experienced, and stand behind their work. They cant afford making a mistake and not taking responsibility for it, with how it is today with internet.
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 12, 2015, 12:13:31 PM
I thought Spiegel was a craniofacial surgeon before I started this. I don't know why. When I started researching this a month ago I was looking at Dr. Z as well. Now I see there are very big differences in these surgeons.
Spiegel is ENT doctor certified in Otolaryngology.. he is not certified plastic surgeon (let alone craniofacial)
For my surgery, and for the result I wanted, I only really considered craniofacial surgeons. As far as I know there are only a few in FFS business: dr. Di Maggio, dr. Ousterhout, dr. Deschamps Braly and dr. Van der Dussen. There are others who had some training in maxillofacial surgery which would include some aspects of craniofacial surgery, but its not nearly the same as those who are real craniofacial surgeons.
Isn't van de Ven in that list aswell? I contacted van der Dussen and requested a quote, he is a little more expensive than the surgeon I am going with but that isn't the main issue I have. I can't find any before and after of his work or anyone who has had surgery with him...
Dr. Bart van de Ven is dental surgeon (dentist). He is specialized in oral and maxillofacial surgery (so practically the same as Facial team surgeons)...
edit: Im looking now at his website.. apparently he later also studied medicine.
Quote from: Lagertha on December 12, 2015, 01:12:25 PM
Flight tickets can be expensive if you dont take time to reseach.. Your can find return flight tickets from Europe to US and back to Europe for as little as $300... Even if you dont find one of those deals in your timeline, there are tickets regularly available at around $400 to east coast and up to $600-700 to west coast. I think the flight from US, are likely to be little more expensive.. you are looking at like $250-300 more expensive return ticket. So its not that big of deal either.
Good info, thank you!
QuoteIm not exactly shure what do you mean as liability worries... Most of these top FFS surgeons are very reliable and experienced, and stand behind their work. They cant afford making a mistake and not taking responsibility for it, with how it is today with internet.
I am sure that any of the top surgeons should do a good job, I'm not really worried about that. I know reputation is everything for their business. My parents are concerned with traveling overseas or to latin america and the perceived dangers/stress of international travel associated. They will be concerned with liability too, they always are looking out
Quote
Spiegel is ENT doctor certified in Otolaryngology.. he is not certified plastic surgeon (let alone craniofacial)
this does worry me a bit
Quote
For my surgery, and for the result I wanted, I only really considered craniofacial surgeons. As far as I know there are only a few in FFS business: dr. Di Maggio, dr. Ousterhout, dr. Deschamps Braly and dr. Van der Dussen. There are others who had some training in maxillofacial surgery which would include some aspects of craniofacial surgery, but its not nearly the same as those who are real craniofacial surgeons.
I'm really liking DeSchamps-Braly... Trying to compare him with S is hard when I don't know what I can afford at his office. Who knows what the difference will really be...? What if S gets me to 90% of what Dr. O/DB team would do? Will I even know the difference? What if DB just doing forehead/mandible would be better than full FFS by S? No matter who does my surgery I'm sure it could always be better. I dunno how choosy I can be.
In the end all of these surgeons are very experienced in facial feminization, dr. Spiegel, dr. Bart van de Ven, Facial team... And have results to proved their worth. It depends on what you personally want, and choosing surgeon who will be able to deliver the change and result that you want. I can only speak from my personal experience, and I can only speak for myself. I practically didnt have visable brow bossing, and my forehead was flat with feminine almost 90° angle. What I wanted was what none of these surgeons would be able to deliver-> based on their style of foreheads, their own aesthetics, and lastly their lack of broad craniofacial surgical skills. I didnt want slight removal od uneven bossing, and making everything smooth. I wanted a set-back as far as it could be and still work in balance with the rest of face. Therefore I needed set-back of whole lower third of forehead, and set-back of central part of middle and partially higher forehead area. The result is my lower forehead is positioned slightly more backwards in comparison with middle forehead, which gives it that ultra feminine curved look which I specifically wanted, because it goes ideally with the rest of my face.
I cannot tell other people what they need to want for their result. Its responsibility of each patient to do their homework and find out what will work ideally for them. Or some might want to avoid that and leave all such details for the surgeon and let him make all the choices. For what some people need, it just might be ideal what dr. Spiegel or dr. Bart or Facial team can do for them. We have all different face, and different challenge to achieve desired result. We dont all need true craniofacial surgeon to achieve our desired result. If someone looks for more or less only removal of brow bossing and smoothing of the forehead into a nice flat shape, all of these surgeons are more than enough experienced and competent to achieve that. There is a slight risk where something goes badly wrong, and they dont have the expert knowledge and skills to fix it and at the same time still deliver ideal result.. but the risk is rather small, because they generally stick to what they know they can do safely.
I travelled to Argentina.. and Im crazy scared of flights... and half of my parents were really against the idea of risking going to other side of the world (the other half went with me). On the other hand I knew exactly which surgeon I want... and turns out Buenos Aires is really nice city, with beautiful and kind people everywhere we went. I didnt really went there to experience everything about the city.. I went to have a surgery, and I spent most of the time in apartment anyway :)
I saw quite many results from dr. Ousterhout over the years.. I didnt see many results from Deschamps-Braly.. So I sadly cant point you directly where to look. I can only suggest you to have a consultation (which is quite pricy) during which Im shure he will be more than willing to show you more than enough results. All of these surgeons can show you their best results during in-person consultation. Most of best results are not likely to allow them to share their pictures on websites...
Wow, Lagertha, thank you for that informative post. I really need to take some time to consider what I want.
I made this a while back while looking around on surgeon's websites: http://imgur.com/28CaZGf
I have no idea if that is an accurate depiction of what a doctor could do, and if so, who. I tried to change it in the way I thought Dr. S would, but I did not know nearly what I know now. I figured the end result would be better. Now I'm thinking it's really far off and I could look a lot different for better or worse. Now I'm thinking I really don't know who will give me what I want. We all want the "best result"... but what does that mean for me?
I should probably get photos/consult from virtualffs before I commit to this stuff.
I don't think it is an unrealistic mockup, but I'd expect with Virtual FFS she'll raise the eyebrows a bit. My results are very similar, though my brow was probably stronger before - http://imgur.com/vLEjrLC (please excuse the fact these are taken with no makeup)
Charlotte thank you for sharing those images! I was thinking the same about the eyebrows. So do you have a more vertical/flat or round forehead? I want to say more flat. Did you say you went to Facial Team? I think you look 100% female and rather pretty. What a dramatic difference. Are you happy with your result?
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 12, 2015, 02:47:32 PM
Now I'm thinking I really don't know who will give me what I want. We all want the "best result"... but what does that mean for me?
I should probably get photos/consult from virtualffs before I commit to this stuff.
You shouldn't rush,.. this is important decision to make, and you should take your time, compare results of different surgeons and build your own opinion. And then make a decision.
Quote from: Lagertha on December 12, 2015, 01:32:27 PM
Dr. Bart van de Ven is dental surgeon (dentist). He is specialized in oral and maxillofacial surgery (so practically the same as Facial team surgeons)...
edit: Im looking now at his website.. apparently he later also studied medicine.
All the "dentists" (oral surgeons) who are doing FFS right now would have also studied medicine. Their are many dual programs where dental students who graduate dental school go, do med school in 2-3 years, then start surgical training with both the dental and medical background. Its just a different pathway to get to the same place that a lot of surgeons arrive at.
For example, Dr. O did it this way.
Its actually not a bad background to come from to learn bone surgeries... I would much rather have a maxillofacial surgeon (DDS/MD) do bone work on me than a plastic surgeon (MD) simply because they would have more experience with bone graphs, and jaw and maxilla bone surgeries, than a plastic surgeon who primarily learns about soft tissue manipulation. Craniofacial surgeons go through more training and can do more though, you are right about that.
Quote from: Charlotte_W on December 12, 2015, 03:12:14 PM
I don't think it is an unrealistic mockup, but I'd expect with Virtual FFS she'll raise the eyebrows a bit. My results are very similar, though my brow was probably stronger before - http://imgur.com/vLEjrLC (please excuse the fact these are taken with no makeup)
Wow thanks for sharing. You went to argentina correct? Interesting to see your result compared to Lagertha's description. For yours for example, is more of a flat profile rather than slightly concave (lower portion with respect to middle portion) which is what Lagertha described hers as.. yet I think its more right for your face. Also your jaw is much improved. Nice nose result as well. The vertical chin reduction really helped bring your face into more of an oval rather than rectangle like pre-hrt. Also pretty hair :p.
Thanks for sharing.
I think she went to Facial team. And I agree, I think she is a fantastic example where their forehead "approach" (for the lack of better word) not only worked good enough, but was in fact exactly ideal for what she needed, and is perfectly balanced with the rest of her face.
Btw... I think you had a really good facial change from hormones in only 12 months. Quite amazing to see!
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 12, 2015, 03:52:50 PM
Charlotte thank you for sharing those images! I was thinking the same about the eyebrows. So do you have a more vertical/flat or round forehead? I want to say more flat. Did you say you went to Facial Team? I think you look 100% female and rather pretty. What a dramatic difference. Are you happy with your result?
Yeah, it was Facial Team. The forehead is definitely flat and going on your photos I would think an approach like this would work well on you. I'm personally very happy with my results so far - I'm only just over 3 months into recovery and they say it can be up to 12 months to see the full results, but I'd guess I'm at least 90% there now.
Quote from: SamSparks on December 12, 2015, 05:45:48 PM
Also your jaw is much improved. Nice nose result as well. The vertical chin reduction really helped bring your face into more of an oval rather than rectangle like pre-hrt. Also pretty hair :p.
Thank you! With regards to the nose result, Facial Team have a dedicated surgeon who specialises in rhinoplasty alongside their two main surgeons.
Quote from: Lagertha on December 12, 2015, 06:00:40 PM
Btw... I think you had a really good facial change from hormones in only 12 months. Quite amazing to see!
My face did definitely soften in those twelve months. I think on VirtualFFS she describes what is known as a "muscle moustache" and that really decreased. It's difficult to tell though how much HRT played a part and how much was deliberate weight gain. By the way I should add that I didn't used to look that intense all the time ;-)
Quote from: Charlotte_W on December 12, 2015, 03:12:14 PM
SNIP
(please excuse the fact these are taken with no makeup)
thanks for providing the pictures, you don't need to apologize re: no makeup. I think this is the only way to show before and after, makeup can cloud things.
Quote from: Charlotte_W on December 12, 2015, 06:26:38 PM
Yeah, it was Facial Team. The forehead is definitely flat and going on your photos I would think an approach like this would work well on you. I'm personally very happy with my results so far - I'm only just over 3 months into recovery and they say it can be up to 12 months to see the full results, but I'd guess I'm at least 90% there now.
Thank you Charlotte, that helps me feel good about going to Dr. S! I would never have guessed you had surgery 2.5 months before those photos.
Tomorrow is most likely gonna be the day I schedule with Dr. S :o
I hope I can sleep tonight
Good for you! Just be adamant that he does what you want him to, and you'll be fine!
I still haven't gone ahead with a date. I sure have been staring at foreheads in person and on tv, however!
I'm tempted to go get a consultation with DeSchamps-Braly but really, I think travel is out. S is so close to me and I think he can do a good result as long as we're on the same page! :)
Does anyone know if Lana Del Rey has a more round... or a more flat forehead... lol
Trick question! It's somewhere in between. I'd say it's more rounded but she has a high nasal bridge so it's not readily apparent
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on December 17, 2015, 12:40:07 AM
I'm tempted to go get a consultation with DeSchamps-Braly but really, I think travel is out. S is so close to me and I think he can do a good result as long as we're on the same page! :)
LMK if you end up going with him. I plan on flying to him for a consult next year and it'll most likely be between him and Spiegel for me.
Deposit placed! I'll be in Boston come March! Here's hoping for good results! ;D
Quote from: LadyDrifterLana on January 02, 2016, 12:04:09 AM
Deposit placed! I'll be in Boston come March! Here's hoping for good results! ;D
Yay! Wish you all the best! ;D A youtuber named Elle Bradford had her forehead and jaw done by him and I think she looks great. She has a video talking about it.
I emailed Spiegel but didn't get a reply. :( It was quite awhile ago too. I'm going to try using his contact form on his website to give it another try.
What would be the best way to contact him?
Calling is really the best way to get in contact with these people. Email takes a long time sometimes and it can get lost.
Quote from: Debra on January 12, 2016, 09:55:56 AM
Calling is really the best way to get in contact with these people. Email takes a long time sometimes and it can get lost.
Ah, I see! ;D thx for the tip
Surgery in five weeks. Woah! Wish me luck.
I still can hardly believe this is real. I go back and forth between anxiety and a massive dose of excitement!
Elle Bradford is really pretty! Anyone have a before photo of her? I'd love to end up with a result like her. I wonder what she told Dr S?
I keep thinking about what I need to say to him at my pre surgical consultation. It's two days before which is kind of nerve wracking. I'll have a day in Boston just doing nothing but thinking about the next morning! ! !
@LadyDrifterLana
Good luck!!! I'm so excited for you.
Elle has a video titled "My Transgender Journey | Before And After" (her most viewed video) and it has many pics and even clips of her before FFS and throughout her transition. I must say that I love her result, especially the forehead.
All the best~
Wow, Elle looked good before her surgery too. In a side profile shot of her in that video it looks like she already had a round female forehead. Her other features weren't particularly male either. I don't know that Spiegel could give me a result like hers.
LadyDrifterLana,
You are going to be fine! If Elle looked good before, so do you. I remember seeing your pictures when the links were still up and you aren't too different from Elle's starting point and not overly masculine at all... Looking at the replies others have said on page 1 and 2, many agree as well.
Thank you maquillage... it is reinforcing to hear positive input from others... I am still fighting my inner negative voice that points out all the stuff that's wrong with my body and that I'll never be " good enough" or 100% female. With five weeks to go I feel like my life is on hold until this surgery. I can't stop thinking about what I'm going to say to Dr S.
It's starting to sink in that this is -actually- happening! It kinda feels like a dream. I'm afraid to be excited, for fear that I'll wake up or somehow screw it up! I hope I'm ready for this recovery. If I bonk my head or sleep wrong and wake up on my nose or jaw or something... I'm liable to freak out!
Quote from: Danielle11746 on December 10, 2015, 03:21:38 AM
Carmen Carrera had her jaw and chin done by him. Also Jenna the one from Canada who was contesting to be Ms Canada had full ffs by him. That's to name a few. Gigi did full ffs by him, but personally I dont think she looks good at all. Cassandra Cass did full ffs with him last year. Ava Glasscott did full ffs with him as well. Try googling these names and you can find photos.
Some of the girls look too overdone, and overdone doesn't help with passing or blending to lead a normal life. That's why I personally suggest doing minimal work and fully healing, then reevaluate and go from there. You want to keep some features with a natural look. That why I suggest doing bone work only then down the line doing soft tissue cosmetic work, nose cheeks ect, as you don't want to come out looking like a wax figure as some girls do. I would personally suggest only doing your forehead, chin and jaw. Then after 2 years doing your nose, cheeks ect.
Did Carmen really have her jaw and chin done? How do you know this? I guess it doesn't matter but a couple of months ago I was going through a tough time and winded up in an instagram DM with her and she was telling me she hadn't had any work done before but she was thinking about it in the future.
See the link for Carmens FFS with Dr S
http://www.popsugar.com/beauty/Transgender-Surgeries-Male--Female-37383400?slide=2
I think that post op pictures (with big hair, heavy glam makeup, great lighting, etc.) next to a scrub face pre op picture with bad lighting, doesn't highlight what the surgeon was able to accomplish, and it is kind of mileading. My personal preference would be to see pre and post op pictures taken with similar lighting, same angles, without makeup, and similar facial expressions.
Quote from: kittenpower on July 13, 2016, 09:28:08 PM
I think that post op pictures (with big hair, heavy glam makeup, great lighting, etc.) next to a scrub face pre op picture with bad lighting, doesn't highlight what the surgeon was able to accomplish, and it is kind of mileading. My personal preference would be to see pre and post op pictures taken with similar lighting, same angles, without makeup, and similar facial expressions.
very much agreed. pretty darn misleading
Quote from: kittenpower on July 13, 2016, 09:28:08 PM
My personal preference would be to see pre and post op pictures taken with similar lighting, same angles, without makeup, and similar facial expressions.
Dr. Bart Van de Ven has the most honest before-after gallery of all FFS surgeons... all other surgeons should take that as example...
:police:
Lets please remember maybe someone is or isn't telling the truth but that isn' to be argued here. No personal attacks and no bashing Please. Please keep in mind TOS 5, 10 and 15.
Mariah