Do you ever get the feeling that you don't pass because someone is looking at you? Possibly a female, they seem to analyze people a lot.
As someone who is self conscious and suffers from some low self esteem, it is not so much that I don't pass, it is that my behavior suggests that there is something wrong with me and that make people question.
This is the whole issue with passing, if you are not confident, if you don't really feel comfortable , then you don't pass. Even if you do pass, you think that you don't pass. I think this is a huge problem for me, because I don't know what people are thinking, it becomes a downward spiral when I think I don't pass, and then that makes me suffer even a larger drop in self esteem and makes me even more self conscious.
I really wish I don't give a ->-bleeped-<-. Anyways, that's my random rant of the day.
Ultimately, my point is, I have to ask myself, who and what am I living for?
Am I living for my own happiness , am I living to be who I am, and passing becomes less relevant because it is for other people and we can never rely on other people's acceptance for our own mental health being.
So in the end, I like to say I am working toward in not giving a ->-bleeped-<- about passing.
But on a deeper level, I guess I don't just want to pass, I want to be attractive and this is a body image problem a lot of women have, to some extent, I am sure.
I try not to think about the entire issue much anymore and just live my life. Maybe its the knowledge I pass okay, and I am not to attached to the idea of being attractive. I am bookish researcher, why attract more attention then need be.
Also the fact if I get hung up on the whole issue it would begin to have a negative effect on me personally.
I've shared those same, exact concerns.
It's a terrible conflict: on the one hand, I want say I'm enlightened enough to just not care what people see or think, and to realize I am who I am regardless, and just get on with life.
On the other hand... passing not only makes things easier, but also gives me the proper context whenever I interact with people. To be totally honest, although I believe the enlightened view is a wonderfully noble sentiment, I'll admit much of my motivation was in preparing myself for a life of rarely passing, trying to find SOME way to deal with it all.
One thing I WILL say... I posted a ways back that *experience* didn't seem to be helping me. But I was wrong. It took longer than I thought, but simply getting OUT THERE into more and more varied situations... and having nothing happen... gained me the confidence to not care so much anymore. But it took time.
And hey, back in the old days I DID out myself to many, many people who I was probably passing with. But back then, I figured there was no WAY I passed, and figured I owed them a quick explanation (yea, I know, I've learned). But NO ONE ever reacted badly to it. I got hugged, congratulated, blessed (never forget that one, lol)... so being read now and then may not be a nightmare anyway.
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on October 09, 2007, 10:16:38 AM
And hey, back in the old days I DID out myself to many, many people who I was probably passing with. But back then, I figured there was no WAY I passed, and figured I owed them a quick explanation (yea, I know, I've learned). But NO ONE ever reacted badly to it. I got hugged, congratulated, blessed (never forget that one, lol)... so being read now and then may not be a nightmare anyway.
~Kate~
The problem is, I don't think anyone deserves explanation unless they are my close friends. I don't owe anyone any explanation and I am not responsible for making sure that people know exactly who I am just so I or them can feel better. The way I see it is , if you want to know anything personal about me, you have to earn it.
Quote from: asiangurliee on October 09, 2007, 10:25:23 AM
The problem is, I don't think anyone deserves explanation unless they are my close friends. I don't owe anyone any explanation and I am not responsible for making sure that people know exactly who I am just so I or them can feel better. The way I see it is , if you want to know anything personal about me, you have to earn it.
Of course, you're absolutely right.
I went through that "explanation" phase a long time ago, back when I was still really getting a handle on all this. It wasn't so much that I launched into an essay about GID, but I'd identify myself using my male name simply because I figured there was no way I was passing, and hadn't yet learned the "I'm Kate regardless" lesson.
I've learned a lot since then ;)
~Kate~
Worrying about how each human being on earth perceives us is such a wasteful and harmful exercise, it gets tiresome seeing so much space in our minds devoted to it. My philosophy is to try to please myself and let the chips fall where they may. Even I cannot control my judgements of others. I know a transwoman who visually is damn near perfect, her voice is good too but, to me, she clocks gay male. She just has that vibe. Others probably think that she presents well and "passes." But I don't. But I don't let on as to how I feel and it doesn't really matter what I think. One can't please everybody.
Frumpy girls shall rule the earth.
I love this quote.
I know this may sound odd, but it really depends on how you are trying to pass. If you are like me and are the type that wears cardigans, and fairly simple cloths of a librarian or researcher, passing just seems less of a concern. I wish I could pin down a percentage, but I would say its over 90% with me personally (but this is a guess based on peoples reactions). The truth is I don't know personally, and I will never know. I'd rather just be the frumpy researcher that I am than worrying about how people perceive me all the time. I know I am not pretty, but that is not what I am after anyway. I just want to be myself.
Plus I had my share of unwanted attention and sexual harassment, that I would rather be considered mousy then get any more of it.
I've found that the more I learn the mannerisms like hand gestures, walking has really helped me gain confidence and with the voice coming along this has also aided me. It's a journey thru the looking glass and I am finding a new person, a caring compassionate woman. When I look in a mirror or window, I see a woman, not a man amd this is the image I would like others to see too.Jolene
Men are usually far more observant than women but it's usually down to the individial. My voice is really good and I haven't had to change it and it helps with emmediate gender recognition.
Quote from: Berliegh on October 10, 2007, 05:43:33 AM
Men are usually far more observant than women but it's usually down to the individial. My voice is really good and I haven't had to change it and it helps with emmediate gender recognition.
Men are far more observant than woman? I am quite sure that the reverse is true. I am guessing that you think this as men certainly are going to notice a woman and scrutinize her but that doesn't make them more observant. Women are better at masking their reactions than men.
Quote from: Berliegh on October 10, 2007, 05:43:33 AM
Men are usually far more observant than women .
oh , actually just the opposite. Women are more observant and just smarter! >:D
Quote from: asiangurliee on October 09, 2007, 09:07:54 AM
Do you ever get the feeling that you don't pass because someone is looking at you? Possibly a female, they seem to analyze people a lot.
Whenever I catch someone doing that, I just look right at her, relax, and give her a nice smile until she smiles back. It's a girl thing.
Men are more vocal (read "->-bleeped-<-") if they read you, they have to say it out loud so you can hear, even point it out to all around, like they scored a big victory for mankind, while a women will be civil and unless you are so unpassable to be jarring for everyone around, will attempt to treat you as any other women (not sure your actually getting the same thing, but it will be as close as they can make it).
As for being read, if you act natural, smile, don't look affected, women and men will read you equally. If you dress blandly and are not too good looking (unpassable can come out as simply ugly to the person's who's not really scrutinizing) there is less of a chance that either men or women will care what gender you are.
Doing a 20+ minutes ride on a not too packed bus and siting near the entrance is probably the toughest "passing" test there is. If you can make then, you can make it anywhere.
Quote from: asiangurliee on October 09, 2007, 09:07:54 AM
...Ultimately, my point is, I have to ask myself, who and what am I living for? Am I living for my own happiness , am I living to be who I am, and passing becomes less relevant because it is for other people and we can never rely on other people's acceptance for our own mental health being. So in the end, I like to say I am working toward in not giving a ->-bleeped-<- about passing. But on a deeper level, I guess I don't just want to pass, I want to be attractive and this is a body image problem a lot of women have, to some extent, I am sure.
While that's a good thing, controlling and living one's own life, everyone still has to get by in the world. To those that don't pass or won't pass without cosmetic (facial) help, it's harder to feel accepted. And while some have the confidence, or audacity?, to ignore the obvious, it effects us all. In some ways, that's what passing is about, not just you but your representation of transpeople.
For example, the other day going through life I saw this rather tall, large (in the male sense), well dressed woman shopping. When she turned around it was obvious she was either a CD or transwoman who needed help. With all the makeup and a wig, she was a male and a man - and sorry, not a masculine woman but a man. It wasn't that I wondered about her but about what others thought, and not just her but others they think of in the future.
I'm reminded by what one famous (post-op) transwoman said once when asked why she suggested facial surgery ahead of SRS if it's appropriate or necessary. She said shat's between your legs isn't what people initially see and hear, it's your face and then your voice. The rest of you, clothes, mannerisms, behavior, etc., follows the distant third. She asked why rush to SRS if you're still seen as a man no matter how much you are legally female?
And you wonder why some worry to much and work so hard at passing? It's not when we're with others, but what's left in their minds or voices when we leave that worries some. Ok, me too.
--Susan--
Passing is important if you want to have any kind of life at all. Unless you live out in the sticks, are self-employed, have your own circle of friends, then passing wouldn't be that much of an issue. But alas, most of us need to be in the city to earn a living and to get by in general.
People staring and interfering in your life is hard to take and I've experienced it first hand. I am going to have ffs, as I want to live a life free from harassment. I am not that strong to put up with being considered different and I certainly do not think I owe anyone explanations either. I treasure my freedom too much and being talked about etc. does interfere with that. :(
Quote from: SusanK on October 12, 2007, 04:15:23 PM
Quote from: asiangurliee on October 09, 2007, 09:07:54 AM
...Ultimately, my point is, I have to ask myself, who and what am I living for? Am I living for my own happiness , am I living to be who I am, and passing becomes less relevant because it is for other people and we can never rely on other people's acceptance for our own mental health being. So in the end, I like to say I am working toward in not giving a ->-bleeped-<- about passing. But on a deeper level, I guess I don't just want to pass, I want to be attractive and this is a body image problem a lot of women have, to some extent, I am sure.
While that's a good thing, controlling and living one's own life, everyone still has to get by in the world. To those that don't pass or won't pass without cosmetic (facial) help, it's harder to feel accepted. And while some have the confidence, or audacity?, to ignore the obvious, it effects us all. In some ways, that's what passing is about, not just you but your representation of transpeople.
For example, the other day going through life I saw this rather tall, large (in the male sense), well dressed woman shopping. When she turned around it was obvious she was either a CD or transwoman who needed help. With all the makeup and a wig, she was a male and a man - and sorry, not a masculine woman but a man. It wasn't that I wondered about her but about what others thought, and not just her but others they think of in the future.
I'm reminded by what one famous (post-op) transwoman said once when asked why she suggested facial surgery ahead of SRS if it's appropriate or necessary. She said shat's between your legs isn't what people initially see and hear, it's your face and then your voice. The rest of you, clothes, mannerisms, behavior, etc., follows the distant third. She asked why rush to SRS if you're still seen as a man no matter how much you are legally female?
And you wonder why some worry to much and work so hard at passing? It's not when we're with others, but what's left in their minds or voices when we leave that worries some. Ok, me too.
--Susan--
I agree with you on the FFS before SRS if one needs it but I think you are being a bit judgmental and harsh on the woman at the mall. Most of us were clocked as men in dresses when we first went out. I got blasted for being honest about feeling uncomfortable about seeing an "unpassable" transwoman or CD but the nexus for my angst was the fear that others at one time )or even now might have thought about me that way . After much self-examination and mindfulness training, I have gotten past that.
I saw the same very unpassable woman that the original thread was about and when I walked past, I smiled at her.
Sometimes the stares are towards what your wearing or towards your hair or shoes. I do it all the time to other women, stare at what they are wearing so I can learn things. If you think you pass you pass, it's all about confidence.
Quote from: asiangurliee on October 09, 2007, 09:07:54 AM
Am I living for my own happiness , am I living to be who I am, and passing becomes less relevant because it is for other people and we can never rely on other people's acceptance for our own mental health being.
The thing is, throughout my transition I've encountered nothing but acceptance from everyone who found out my history, one way or another.
But acceptance isn't enough. Or at least *I* haven't been content with only acceptance so far.
I've posted elsewhere that perhaps my identity went beyond gender, and perhaps simply being "Kate" to everyone would be enough, regardless of whether I passed or not. But I have to admit... being seen and treated as a female, without that "asterisk" after my gender as a friend once put it... is where I seem to need to be. It's not just about avoiding stares and scorn - it's about being seen and treated for who I am.
And who I am is a woman. Not a woman*, not a transwoman, and not a transsexual. A woman.
I've had many wonderful experiences of people you'd never expect to be tolerant hugging and congratulating me, and getting every pronoun and name right. But nothing compares to having someone simply seeing me as an ordinary female. Whether they love or hate me, see me as ugly or cute, they see ME finally. Not someone to be accepted, not someone to be congratulated, but just... ME. Just A Girl. No one special.
That's where I need to be.
~Kate~
QuoteAnd who I am is a woman. Not a woman*, not a transwoman, and not a transsexual. A woman.
I've had many wonderful experiences of people you'd never expect to be tolerant hugging and congratulating me, and getting every pronoun and name right. But nothing compares to having someone simply seeing me as an ordinary female. Whether they love or hate me, see me as ugly or cute, they see ME finally. Not someone to be accepted, not someone to be congratulated, but just... ME. Just A Girl. No one special.
That's where I need to be.
You're right on the money, Kate. That's where we all need to be.
Women use non-verbal communication quite well. A smile can be loaded with goodwill and kinship between women or it can be loaded with animosity and a prelude to "going to claws" or other weapons. I've used both proficiently.
In 2002 I did my physical transformation in preparation for my first day out, dressed as a woman, hiding under Cover Girl makeup.
I describe myself as "rough as a cob," and I was. I had the best acrylic wig that I could afford, shorts and a top, black sandals, and a teensy black purse that couldn't hold as much as a tampon, on a spaghetti strap. I had shaved my legs and I was good to go. I had no voice training.
I stood out in a crowd of blind people! I had been on HRT for less than a month but I went out and walked down the main street in town like I was Good Queen Bess. I spoke with my best voice I could and I was in no way embarrassed.
I passed that day and that's all that counted to me. I have never looked back.
I am a pretty fair-sized woman, six feet tall, 46C bra, waist under construction, with good padding on my hips and bum and celulite on my thighs and upper legs above the knee. I am training my own voice by feeling the changes in where it resonates as I push it higher.
I don't give two hoots and a holler what anyone else thinks of me. In my own eyes, I pass. All of my identification, except for my passport, show that I am female.
I am a woman and anyone who has a problem with that can bring it to my attention so I can dismiss them and their complaint vis-a-vis.
I hope that this is of help to you. The less you care about what others think, the more you will have time to think of how good you truly have done.
Thanks again for sharing, Kate.
Wing Walker
Flyin' High on Life as a Woman
P.S. Women notice things that men have no cognizance of. When I see another woman I notice her hair, makeup, clothes, and shoes. I keep the details I like in my mind's eye and try them on myself. A ravishing beauty I ain't but I'm just fine for me.
QuoteDoing a 20+ minutes ride on a not too packed bus and siting near the entrance is probably the toughest "passing" test there is. If you can make then, you can make it anywhere.
i dont agree with you keira, for me, thats not even the beggining of passing. You can walk around the street, or get on a bus and pass no problem, nobody looks at you or pays you any attention. Passing isn't about how not to be noticed, its not about posting pictures on an internet forum and its not about telling yourself how girly you are, which i think as transwomen we have a habit of falling into...
passing is about interacting, conversing and then, being accepted completely as a woman by random people in REAL LIFE without question..
and not only that, but then repeating that, over and over again until there can never be any doubt at all in the person your talking to's mind that you are a female.
i think alot of trans people in general think they pass, because nobody pays them any attention. I thought that for along time. Everyone in the street calls me a woman, EVERYONE. In fact, it means nothing at all..
for example, a real test of passing..
try standing up teaching a two hour class in front of 25 adults. Then do it again, 5 times a week for the next 30 weeks..
They are all staring directly at you, talking to each other about you.. there is nothing to hide behind, no way of hiding your voice.. Its you and them, and they will either see a man, or a woman.
then you'll know if you pass or not, no questions asked, there is no doubt at all.
once you do something like that and realise exactly where you stand, you can begin to learn how to
REALLY pass as a woman. Any false illusions you had about yourself are all gone forever. And that is a great thing. Thats when the fear goes..
also, I completely agree with kim (berleigh), my experience invariably tells me that men are the ones who i find most difficult to convince. I rarely have problems passing with women at all. White anglo saxon men below 60. They are the most observant group in my experience, although, obviously, their observations, are absolutely wrong.
they think they see a man, but they are wrong. Its so important to know that..
its the ones who see a women who are right, after all, we are women, aren't we? :)
the people who call you man, crossdresser or freak, or whatever they make up, are the ones who are mistaken. Its so important for us all to understand that!
The joke, is actually, on them, but to get to the stage where you have that confidence, i think in general, we have to drop the act, and we have to face reality once and for all..
I think Fruity is absolutely right and a bus ride isn't any kind of test at all, unless someone is on their first ever day out. Fruity highlights a far greater test of teaching 25 teenage kids who are extreamely receptive and observant when it comes to gender...
I was talking only about the visual aspect of passing. Believe me, the bus thing is a killer, you are scrutinized to death by people of all ages and sexes who have nothing else to do. And people are in your face litteraly. Before even interacting, you got to pass visually.
Most people in the US never deal with public buses and don't know what I'm talking about.
OF course, if your voice is like a truck driver, its a deal killer.
There are "levels" of passing.
Quote from: Keira on October 13, 2007, 05:18:24 AM
I was talking only about the visual aspect of passing. Believe me, the bus thing is a killer, you are scrutinized to death by people of all ages and sexes who have nothing else to do. And people are in your face litteraly. Before even interacting, you got to pass visually.
Most people in the US never deal with public buses and don't know what I'm talking about.
OF course, if your voice is like a truck driver, its a deal killer.
There are "levels" of passing.
My first therapist, Gianna Israel, author of Transgender Care wrote a great article about taking a ride on public transportation to gauge the reactions, I will try to find it.
Early on, I used to get funny stares, now the only stares I get are men ogling me although not too long ago some little Asian women who only saw my back said "Excuse me, sir." I was slightly PO'd til I realized she reacted to a back. :)
Quote
There are "levels" of passing.
I agree.
Posted on: October 13, 2007, 10:33:42 AM
Quote from: fruity on October 13, 2007, 04:37:34 AM
QuoteDoing a 20+ minutes ride on a not too packed bus and siting near the entrance is probably the toughest "passing" test there is. If you can make then, you can make it anywhere.
also, I completely agree with kim (berleigh), my experience invariably tells me that men are the ones who i find most difficult to convince. I rarely have problems passing with women at all. White anglo saxon men below 60. They are the most observant group in my experience, although, obviously, their observations, are absolutely wrong.
It really astounds me that anyone, especially a woman, would think that men are more observant than us. When I see a transwoman, she is not going to even know I read her and I am sure not going to blurt out, "Look, there's a man!"
Maybe you and Kim should take an acting class. (Actors are taught the skill of observation, that is how an actor learns to adapt a role by learning how real people move and interact.)
Link to Gianna's article. (http://www.firelily.com/gender/gianna/bus.html)
Melissa, post FFS girls who are not too tall, I've seen a few and I doubt you could spot them in the street. If you interacted with them a few minutes, possibly you'd find them out (but its not a certainty). As for me, worked with groups of teens this summer and all my friends are in their 20's and none know and if there's something I'm adept at spotting, it is being read.
People wondering and being read is very different. If you saw me on the street, you'd surely wonder... But, being able to tell 100%, probably not.
I'm probably one of the 1000 women over 6 foot in the whole city (quebec people are not tall), a lot of people may wonder because of that... Pre-FFS, I had other manly signs than height, but now, its the only overt one.
But, I have a very small frame (my frame is considered small even for a women!, its smaller than most shorter women), I now wear size 8 blouses., size 8 dresses and 6-8 pants and skirts (remember I'm 6 foot tall). I've got a 26.5 inch waist and 38 inch hips. I'm 158 pounds (185 last year) in spite of having a LOT of muscles on my thighs/core/buttocks (I can bike at more than 35mph with no wind, no joke) and still a bit of belly fat, without them I'd be 140 pounds and I'd still have a healthy weight according to my frame.
keira, your perceptions are relative only to you. You have know way of determining what I perceive or how I perceive it.
Many times, I feel the presence of another transwoman before any visual or auditory contact is made. Lately though, I have let go of my attachments to all of these harmful intrusions of thought. How others perceive me is completely beyond my control and meaningless.
I am also puzzled as to what the size of your frame has to do with the topic.
Yes, of course it's easy to pass when you are just walking around in a mall or on the street with people you don't even know and will never see again. It is a different story when you have to see the same people everyday and they start getting to notice all your behavior, scrutinize your facial structure and getting to know all the subtle and non subtle gestures, voice and behavior.
There are a lot of intimate interaction (not sexual or physical) that can get too close and kind of scary when you feel like you have something to hide.
Frame size relates to the topic because it helps a lot for passing.
If I was a large frame for 6 foot tall, then I'd stick out a lot more
and probably I'd feel my breast would be to small to.
If you work with male and female teens for a whole summer, you get a pretty good idea if you pass or not... Teenage boys in particular are not subtle when they read somebody, I've seen it plenty of time before.
I had a cousin in that group (which knew but didn't tell) and she was my spy; the worse rumor was that the girls thought I was a robot because of how I was able to run even the youngest into the ground in training them... HEHEHE. Of course, its because I was a male track and field national level athlete that I can do that, but for them, I'm just a 40 year old who kicks their asses :-).
As to being able to "sense" TS, well that's where we part because I don't believe in that at all. But, hey, we all have our own beliefs.
Quote from: Keira on October 13, 2007, 01:58:16 PM
Frame size relates to the topic because it helps a lot for passing.
Sorry, I missed something then because I didn't think the thread topic was about how we pass individually although a lot of threads devolve into that.
QuoteAs to being able to "sense" TS, well that's where we part because I don't believe in that at all. But, hey, we all have our own beliefs.
My strong womanly intuition has served me well. I guess if one doesn't possess it, one might doubt it exists. OTOH that is kinda like a blind person denying that sight exists in others.
Quote from: Keira on October 12, 2007, 06:46:44 AMIf you dress blandly and are not too good looking (unpassable can come out as simply ugly to the person's who's not really scrutinizing) there is less of a chance that either men or women will care what gender you are.
Yep, that's how I spot the trans women - we're always the blandest dressed ladies there are. Seriously. We have a fear of looking chic and beautiful. We're princesses who transform ourselves into toads instead of the other way around. As long as we limit ourselves that way, we place ourselves inferior to other women.
Quote from: Hypatia on October 14, 2007, 12:06:04 AM
Quote from: Keira on October 12, 2007, 06:46:44 AMIf you dress blandly and are not too good looking (unpassable can come out as simply ugly to the person's who's not really scrutinizing) there is less of a chance that either men or women will care what gender you are.
Yep, that's how I spot the trans women - we're always the blandest dressed ladies there are. Seriously. We have a fear of looking chic and beautiful. We're princesses who transform ourselves into toads instead of the other way around. As long as we limit ourselves that way, we place ourselves inferior to other women.
I know this may sound odd, but some of us have to tone it down because we would like to avoid sexual harassment. Not for being trans but for being female.
I have my own days where I am more femme, than I have my days when I am not. There is nothing wrong with being frumpy or bookish, and sometimes its not out of fear of being chic or beautiful or wanting to avoid attention. On the contrary that is just how some of us are, our gender expression, well is pretty bland. I feel more comfortable in a sweater and jeans sometimes than I do in a dress. Not all of us are glamorous.
I have also seen it stated that those who are just naturally nerdy and bookish women have an easier time passing.
Sometimes you realize part of who you are and well...normalcy, is not being glamorous or chic, because that is not who you are. Sometimes that was part of who you were all along. I know very chic girls who spend time in Manhattan and go shopping as well.
Its not that some transition from princess to toads, some of us are neither. Some of us are just the quite bookish girls that are fine with who we are and do not care about being princesses or toads, and that we are more comfortable with being ourselves than being fashionable.
And I know that may seem bland. I know it is probably thought to be for passing purposes. The truth is passing is sometimes incidental when in reality you are just comfortable with yourself and your very nature is to be frumpy and bookish. And as much as voice and personal behavior is important, those come much more naturally if you are comfortable with yourself and being yourself rather than acting in a way that may not be you. And sometimes being Chic is not who you are at all. That personal comfort is when passing just becomes incidental and no longer an issue, as you just begin to live your life.
You can be "bookish" and attractive and stylish.
For me, those TS clothes often look either barely female and undifferentiated or ultra-conservative making the person look 20 year older; they do seem like an attempt at hiding in plain sight. Its as if they do not connect with their peers of the same body type at all.
Many TS I know basically are afraid of really dressing like their most stylish peers, instead dressing like their mother would dress in the 70's or early 80's i (I've seen a load of this).
Quote from: Keira on October 14, 2007, 01:47:00 AM
You can be "bookish" and attractive and stylish.
For me, those TS clothes often look either barely female and undifferentiated or ultra-conservative making the person look 20 year older; they do seem like an attempt at hiding in plain sight. Its as if they do not connect with their peers of the same body type at all.
Many TS I know basically are afraid of really dressing like their most stylish peers, instead dressing like their mother would dress in the 70's or early 80's i (I've seen a load of this).
Okay now I know what you are talking about.
Honestly I just dress how I feel, and its really not that conservative...its more just very casual at this point. I have seen what you are talking about it NYC once, it does look really weird.
I tend to dress my office (which is very casual) and my subculture quite a bit. But there is a difference in being stylish in a way thats just not me (NYC fashion) and having my own style. I know this may sound silly and philosophical, but actually knowing how to dress to reflect yourself is a subject that is frequently on fashion shows like what not to wear. (Okay revealing I am a bit hypocritical). I personally am not trying to blend it at all at this point, because I don't really try, that just happens. I guess a little bit of confidence goes a long way. But make no question, I am pretty darn bookish.
The truth is I know nobody who really dresses in the way you are suggesting. But most of my friends are under 30, which may explain for quite a bit of why this is not as much of an issue to me.
yep, passing isnt about how you look, it helps sure, but if you look like a total babe, but act like a football jock, people will wonder....
weirdly tho, i worry more about being seen in public, than interacting with people close. i LOVE interacting and talking, meeting new people, but im terrified of getting there!
My personal beef is with others, i know being happy in yourself is key, but for me, my happyness comes from being read as a normal girl. i dont want to be seen as ts, and the idea embaraces and ashames me, meh, my bagage, but true, if my happyness comes from being what others want, fine.
R :police:
Quote from: Keira on October 13, 2007, 05:18:24 AM
I was talking only about the visual aspect of passing. Believe me, the bus thing is a killer, you are scrutinized to death by people of all ages and sexes who have nothing else to do. And people are in your face litteraly. Before even interacting, you got to pass visually.
Most people in the US never deal with public buses and don't know what I'm talking about.
OF course, if your voice is like a truck driver, its a deal killer.
There are "levels" of passing.
I ride on the London tube quite a lot and people are crammed into those tube trains, so you under a lot of scrutiny all the time. For me it's no problem. In London we have to use public transport all the time.....it really sounded silly to me when you mention going on a bus as we do it here all the time....
As for my voice, I've been blessed...
yeah, my voice leaves no doubt as to my gender, its awesome. i was on the phone to the students loan company (not told them of my name change just yet to avoid deleys) but after saying MR xyz, the guy proceeded to refer to me as miss, and luv throughout the coversation ><
R :police:
Quote from: Keira on October 13, 2007, 05:18:24 AM
I was talking only about the visual aspect of passing. Believe me, the bus thing is a killer, you are scrutinized to death by people of all ages and sexes who have nothing else to do. And people are in your face litteraly. Before even interacting, you got to pass visually.
Most people in the US never deal with public buses and don't know what I'm talking about.
At least here busses are not really a test of passing.
Might be culture dependent but most people here just ignore everyone else on the bus.
Well I wish I could come to the point where I didn't care what people thought. But the truth is, no matter what kind of mind games I try to play, it matters to me and it matters a lot. Now it's not that I can't take being insulted. I could handle that OK even if I didn't like it. But all I've ever wanted was to be among women and be considered as one of them. Not passing would make that impossible because I am not naive enough to believe that all women out there are so mature in their thinking that they would consider me female if they knew all about me.
As far as tests, I don't ride buses, but here are some of the interesting ones I've had:
-Sitting on a bench carrying on a conversation with two hairstylists
-Sitting at a bar for dinner and being among a crowd, carrying on casual conversations, being served by a beautiful girl waitress
-Waiting in line to buy lingerie while talking with another woman
-Sitting at a table and talking makeup with a makeup salesgirl
-Checking out of a hotel
-Oh, and of course there is the ever-popular having a conversation with a woman in the Ladies' Room. (I was asked if I had an extra panty liner.)
Maybe people are just being nice, but I think I passed the above. It gives me a great feeling, like being at home by a cozy fire. Some things just feel right.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
From Chagdud Rinpoche's 'Gates to Buddhist Practice':
"To understand how delusion arises, practice watching your mind.
Begin by simply letting it relax. Without thinking of the past or the future, without feeling hope or fear about this thing or that, let it rest comfortably, open and natural. In this space of the mind, there is no problem, no suffering.
Then something catches your attention--an image, a sound, a smell. Your mind splits into inner and outer, self and other, subject and object. In simply perceiving the object, there is still no problem.
But when you zero in on it, you notice that it's big or small, white or black, square or circular; and then you make a judgment-- for example, whether it's pretty or ugly. Having made that judgment, you react to it: you decide you like it or don't like it. That's when the problem starts, because "I like it" leads to "I want it." We want to possess what we perceive to be desirable. Similarly, "I don't like it" leads to "I don't want it." If we like something, want it, and can't have it, we suffer. If we don't want it, but can't keep it away, again we suffer. Our suffering seems to occur because of the object of our desire or aversion, but that's not really so -- it happens because the mind splits into object-subject duality and becomes involved in wanting or not wanting something.
We often think the only way to create happiness is to try to control the outer circumstances of our lives, to try to fix what seems wrong or to get rid of everything that bothers us. But the real problem lies in our reaction to those circumstances. What we have to change is the mind and the way it experiences reality."
Hi Fruity
Yes you are quite right, if one is going to go full time you must be prepared to adapt to the environment you work in. People at first will stare at you like your some type of alien from Alpha Centauri and it can be quite unnerving and you may feel like melting down between the cracks in the floor boards.
I am, well was a social worker. I think that once one has been doing this kind of work for so many years there is part of you that will always be needing to go on a good rescue mission. When I transitioned that aspect of me never changed, for that mater compassion and caring for others was amplified.
I worked at a drop in center for street people and one for mental health consumers dealing with upwards to 50 people or more per day. Since I honestly cared for these people I quite quickly adapted to a personality not only I was comfortable with but also the people I worked with. It worked out quite well. The thought of being a transsexual woman adapting to the real world just kind of sublimated away into nothing. After a time I was just me doing what needed done during a work day. As for dress, I just wore the same as what ever any of the other girls on the staff wore.
I really don't know if I pass as the gender I represent but I did pass to the people I worked with and that was all that was really important to me.
Crowds like on a buss I can't do, not because of who I am but because I have had a life long phobia to where there are crowds of people.
As for size, well I use to hate my size, 5'3" 125 lbs. I really think now that it was certainly was a plus or a blessing towards my transitioning. Another blessing was a couple of girl friends, bless their little hearts, who encouraged and helped me, even supplying me with some clothes at the beginning. Actually a lot of the girls at my work donated clothes for me.
As for the gents, well what can you say, gents will be gents. They were kind of standoffish at first, staying away from the drop in, but after a while they began to come back. I had just as many close consultations with them as I did the girls.
As for your story hun, all I can say is "wow!" that was nothing short of bravery in my books.
Cindy
surely your not MEANT to change who you are when you transition?
i certainly resist becoming someone else quite strongly.
R :police:
cindy-
hi, i can really relate to your story, when you talk about the getting used to being a woman, the initial difficulties, and the distance with which men treat you initially. Once you have a big wardrobe full of clothes that reflect your mood that day, things get easier dont they! :)
i don't think anyone has ever stared at me like i was from alpha centaurai, but maybe from planet neptune haha.. i have certainly felt uncomfortable at times,
i felt like being a social worker for along time too like you, i think that i come across as being a hard bitch on internet forums, but i think really im quite a caring person. I think alot of transwoman are like you, and me in that way. We feel, were others, might act.
that said, I decided i was ultimately too pig headed and up my own bum to be a social worker and so i became a teacher instead!
with teaching, once people realise you are a capable teacher, they dont even notice what clothes you wear, nor do they care. They are their to learn spanish, and im there to teach them. My gender, is not relevant to them.
sometimes other transpeople don't like what i say and sometimes they get offended, but i am talking from my experience. I always say what i think, with me you get no bull->-bleeped-<-. Thats something i always admire about my friend berleigh too - theres no bull->-bleeped-<- from her either. We don't always agree but its so important for us all to understand the situation we find ourselves in.
what i said before, is also aimed to be help to any other transwoman who is a bit down in confidence, or feels sometimes like they just can't compete, or that other people's opinion of them is more important than their own opionion of themselves.. Thats how i have felt alot in my life..
always remember, if they call you a man, or he, or whatever... always remember.. THEY ARE WRONG. There's no need to be nasty to them, or fight against them.. they are just wrong. Its them who are mistaken, not you. Its so easy to let other people decide for you who you are, but the trick, is not to let them?
The ones who treat you as a woman, are right. They are the ones who understand gender properly, which is why i think melissa90 totally and utterly misunderstands what i am saying..
women treat me as a woman, so, ultimately they are the ones who understand gender better. Mellissa thinks thats an insult to women? Strange idea you got there mellisa ;) Men think they see a man, so i call them observant.. perhaps i used the wrong word. Maybe, mistakenly observant would better describe them..
anyway, Thats the mentality i have at the moment, and its helped me alot, and given me alot of confidence in myself and my own identity.
Hi fruity
Well I still have the odd person stand there and google at me and that use to annoy me, Did I have a sign on my butt saying, "kick me?" Then I figured out what it was. I remember way back, as far as I can remember from childhood on up I remember people stared at me. "I attract people!" and this may not be good for me either since I have a crowd phobia. Kids specially and animals as well I love, the innocents you know. I don't know what it is that attracts them but I don't mind so much anymore. I am an animal whisperer, and a child lover. Espeicially little kids who will stand right in-front of me staring me right in the eye balls, So I kind of enjoy the attention, "SOMEONE CALL THE NATIONAL INQUIERER!!!"
Anyway this is the way I deal with people, a little humor, it can go a long ways in making people feel comfortable around me. I did have a rough time though after I was retired from work. I felt lonely lost and very emotional. For a time I retreated from society, hiding out in my apartment. All I can say is that this is not a healthy thing to do for a post opp and for a person that is quite active like I am, or use to be. You hide for to long you begin to loose your confidence with people and, hells bells!" you also begin to loose touch with reality. Going out again is almost like starting over again.
Thanks to my soul mate, she's an angel, I really don't know how I would have made out without her. Since I have arrived here in Vancouver I have started three meetup groups and I run two yahoo groups and have applied to work as a support worker with..... yep, you guessed it, for gender dysphoric.
I just need to be occupied this was also the reason I came back here as well. Funny thing I never had anyone address me in any other gender then the one I present and it certainly is not because I'm a anywhere passable as a beauty queen either. Hang my picture on the door outside keeps the rats away. ;D maybe it my personality huh? Think so? Honestly though I just say what I feel is a appropriate to which ever poster. The worst that happens sometimes is I don't get any response, but that don't matter, maybe they need to go consult an encyclopedia or something.
I have never had any problems making friends with GG's either, with any body actually even the guys. But yes women seem to be more understanding, and much more ready to accepting you into their fold.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on October 15, 2007, 09:54:57 AM
Hi fruity
Well I still have the odd person stand there and google... me...
How do they do that without knowing your name?
Hi Melissa
Well it wouldn't be hard to track me down on google if the person just knows my first name, My name shows up all over the web from Canada to China to Timbuktu and Kokomo Island and Hanalee and Puff the Magic dragon is my pet and I'll fly back on his back.
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on October 15, 2007, 09:54:57 AM
But yes women seem to be more understanding, and much more ready to accepting you into their fold.
Unless they attend the wymyn's michigan music festival ;)
and dont judge too readily, men can be as 'accepting' too...
R :police:
You may be right, but from my experience, I find that I certainly have way more women friends then guys. I got nothing against guys I just don't have all that much in common with them. I am not going to take a census to find out who accepts who or how many get a big foot print from a size 12 army boot imprinted on the back of their pants. You only die once and you only live once, so strike a happy medium and maybe you'll get overlooked by the grim reaper and live forever. Either way you win, or loose, depends on the way you perceive it.
Having guts like a six stomached cow from planet Zangi." and the balls I had before the surgery, the the survival instincts a Martian cockroach whose main dietary source is eating house guests..
Please disregard message above. It will self destruct in fifteen seconds
Cindy
i hate to say this, but your a woman, women have more female friends... men usually just want one thing...
now while i have lots of male friends (im fairly tomboyish and in a sport i play girls are underreprestented) i have MANY more female friends, and my female friends are closer, why? its how girls are. We express emotion through personal intimacy, a light touch, a hug, sharing personal space to reinforce our boundaries. I will say things to my girlfriends that i wont say to guy friends or even a bf. Society is just the way that females are closer than males socially.
R :police:
So...
Yesterday, I had done an electric razor shave(leaves some stubble which means it's not as bad as shaving, as far as ti growing back thicker).
I got mistaken for a mam, sitting down for an interview.
Today I put on a little bit of eye makeup, did whatever the heck I could with my hair(considering it's like, half an inch or something), and took a few pics:p
Amazingly, it came out alright.
So, do I pass?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa227%2Fpixieluvsall%2FPIC_0072-1.jpg&hash=9b051bd3d82e1077eada419a3efe18525aa597fe)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa227%2Fpixieluvsall%2FPIC_0073-1.jpg&hash=dc70e2ad8abaa00d2fbd3d3811c1aeebd6b68851)
Posted on: October 16, 2007, 11:36:56 AM
Quote from: Rachael on October 16, 2007, 10:03:55 AM
i hate to say this, but your a woman, women have more female friends... men usually just want one thing...
now while i have lots of male friends (im fairly tomboyish and in a sport i play girls are underreprestented) i have MANY more female friends, and my female friends are closer, why? its how girls are. We express emotion through personal intimacy, a light touch, a hug, sharing personal space to reinforce our boundaries. I will say things to my girlfriends that i wont say to guy friends or even a bf. Society is just the way that females are closer than males socially.
R :police:
Funny, when I was transitioned I had more male friends, nwo I have more female... weird.
are you f2m? if so, yes you do pass,
if your m2f like i think, you look vageuly feminine, but you dont look female. Sorry, im just being honest.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on October 16, 2007, 02:03:44 PM
are you f2m? if so, yes you do pass,
if your m2f like i think, you look vageuly feminine, but you dont look female. Sorry, im just being honest.
R :police:
I have to agree. I mean HRT and laser/electro will help that alot though, as this is one of the few cases where FFS is not needed.
Hi Rachael
Quotefemale friends are closer, why? its how girls are. We express emotion through personal intimacy, a light touch, a hug, sharing personal space to reinforce our boundaries.
It wouldn't be very hard to prove
I am a member to many of the Yahoo Groups and from my experience on these groups most of them are populated by at least 90% female.
Cindy
Quote from: Rachael on October 16, 2007, 02:03:44 PM
are you f2m? if so, yes you do pass,
if your m2f like i think, you look vageuly feminine, but you dont look female. Sorry, im just being honest.
R :police:
Who be ye talkin about?
I hope not me:(
Get a hair piece.
Cindy
At least you have enough courage to post a picture of yourself Kalt. I wouldn't do that because I'm paranoid and scared of people's reactions!! :P
62 years old?
Smoky Mountains Tennessee two years ago.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi11.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa191%2Fcynthiag932%2FF1000022.jpg&hash=6059a2135a9225cc4a040f7f890149429abdfb71)
Cindy
Quote from: Amy T. on October 16, 2007, 02:26:36 PM
Quote from: Rachael on October 16, 2007, 02:03:44 PM
are you f2m? if so, yes you do pass,
if your m2f like i think, you look vageuly feminine, but you dont look female. Sorry, im just being honest.
R :police:
I have to agree. I mean HRT and laser/electro will help that alot though, as this is one of the few cases where FFS is not needed.
few cases? youve not seen me recently have you? nor many young trans people who dont need any...
Kalt yes, i meant you.
R :police:
I was put on an evaluation at Clark Institute in Toronto, got my shrink to recommend me to an endo in Toronto and three months later I was on both hormones and androgen blocker. The rest of my transitioning I did on my own with my GP prescribing the hormones and my shrink keeping tabs of my progress who was only marginally knowledgeable on the subject of GID
Well such was life when you live in the sticks.
Cindy
Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 03:20:27 AM
Quote from: Amy T. on October 16, 2007, 02:26:36 PM
Quote from: Rachael on October 16, 2007, 02:03:44 PM
are you f2m? if so, yes you do pass,
if your m2f like i think, you look vageuly feminine, but you dont look female. Sorry, im just being honest.
R :police:
I have to agree. I mean HRT and laser/electro will help that alot though, as this is one of the few cases where FFS is not needed.
few cases? youve not seen me recently have you? nor many young trans people who dont need any...
Kalt yes, i meant you.
R :police:
Racheal, I thought this as well, but recently I have changed my mind on the subject after meeting more people. I have met as many young transitioners who need it as old ones. It just happens to get down to genetic luck.
Quote from: kalt on October 16, 2007, 10:37:46 AM
So, do I pass?
Ah, THAT question, the one which tortured me too ;)
In the end, I found that the only real way to truly answer that is to let the (real life) public tell you. Encouragement from my therapist and everyone here was wonderful, but in the end, it finally took just DOING it, getting out there over and over to finally convince me I could get by OK.
~Kate~
Quote from: kalt on October 16, 2007, 10:37:46 AM
So, do I pass?
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa227%2Fpixieluvsall%2FPIC_0073-1.jpg&hash=dc70e2ad8abaa00d2fbd3d3811c1aeebd6b68851)
I look at your picture and think, "Moses from
Prince of Egypt."
Kate: yeah, the public helps, but im still terrified ill be read, dispite havin serveral close friends who dont know im trans... its complicated, but honesty is best, if someone doesnt pass, ill tell them, if they do, they do, if thier part way there, ill offer encouragement, and going from male to female isnt overnight, it takes time, and kalt, you WILL get there, you have good potential facially, time will tell.
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 11:22:40 AM
if someone doesnt pass, ill tell them, if they do, they do...
Well, you really can't make that call for someone, aside from telling them if they pass with YOU or not. The Public is less critical than other TSs, as IMHO I don't think they're looking for TSs (aside from maybe in certain cities). If they assume you're female for whatever reason initially, it takes something to BREAK that impression - yet their subconscious will try like heck to maintain that first impression anyway. The
"she must be a TS!" option doesn't exist in most people's mind.
~Kate~
Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 03:20:27 AM
Quote from: Amy T. on October 16, 2007, 02:26:36 PM
Quote from: Rachael on October 16, 2007, 02:03:44 PM
are you f2m? if so, yes you do pass,
if your m2f like i think, you look vageuly feminine, but you dont look female. Sorry, im just being honest.
R :police:
I have to agree. I mean HRT and laser/electro will help that alot though, as this is one of the few cases where FFS is not needed.
few cases? youve not seen me recently have you? nor many young trans people who dont need any...
Kalt yes, i meant you.
R :police:
I think we all hope not to have to have FFS. hehe. Not only would it drain all of my money, but it would be painful as heck too most likely, and I hate surgery! But there are of course things I don't like about myself which I would LIKE to change :P But we'll see how I turn out first though.
I would like to get FFS at some point, mostly because when I see myself in the mirror my face reminds me too much of my old life
Quote from: Kat on October 17, 2007, 12:29:29 PM
I would like to get FFS at some point, mostly because when I see myself in the mirror my face reminds me too much of my old life
Kat, no offense, YOU DEFINATELY do not need it. Your face is as perfect as it gets. If you are thinking of it get it out of your pretty little head. For somebody that looks as feminine as you it is not worth the risk. As much as you see your old self, you may be seeing your old self because you were highly feminine going into transition. Thats just my input.
Posted on: October 17, 2007, 12:33:54 PM
Quote from: Kate on October 17, 2007, 11:31:06 AM
Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 11:22:40 AM
if someone doesnt pass, ill tell them, if they do, they do...
Well, you really can't make that call for someone, aside from telling them if they pass with YOU or not. The Public is less critical than other TSs, as IMHO I don't think they're looking for TSs (aside from maybe in certain cities). If they assume you're female for whatever reason initially, it takes something to BREAK that impression - yet their subconscious will try like heck to maintain that first impression anyway. The "she must be a TS!" option doesn't exist in most people's mind.
~Kate~
Kate is right, unless you live in San Fransisco or are completely impassable, most people will not pick up on it.
Quote from: Kate on October 17, 2007, 11:31:06 AM
The Public is less critical than other TSs, as IMHO I don't think they're looking for TSs (aside from maybe in certain cities). If they assume you're female for whatever reason initially, it takes something to BREAK that impression - yet their subconscious will try like heck to maintain that first impression anyway. The "she must be a TS!" option doesn't exist in most people's mind.
This is very true, but there are rare exceptions. I think a lot of it has to do with people's experience. If they've never met one, they can't see them. There are people I talk with every day who don't know. And then there was the young man who sat down across from me on the train a few weeks ago and clocked me in 5 seconds. He happened to be gay and knew some trans people.
People always dispute this but I sometimes clock TSs before I make visual or auditory contact. I think what has happened is that they have read me (In SF, it is rare that two women can't read each other) and I feel that and turn and look and sure enough, I see another transwoman.
We can talk about this ad nauseum but the reality is that it is irrelevant what any one individual thinks of us. The key is letting go of the attachment to passing. Some day, people everywhere will have the ability to read TSs that people in San Francisco. Is everyone going to have a nervous breakdown then and be running to get FFS?
Posted on: October 17, 2007, 02:20:19 PM
Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 03:20:27 AM
Quote from: Amy T. on October 16, 2007, 02:26:36 PM
Quote from: Rachael on October 16, 2007, 02:03:44 PM
are you f2m? if so, yes you do pass,
if your m2f like i think, you look vageuly feminine, but you dont look female. Sorry, im just being honest.
R :police:
I have to agree. I mean HRT and laser/electro will help that alot though, as this is one of the few cases where FFS is not needed.
few cases? youve not seen me recently have you? nor many young trans people who dont need any...
Kalt yes, i meant you.
R :police:
The only way to gauge how well a person passes is to meet her in person.
Posted on: October 17, 2007, 02:25:26 PM
Quote from: Kat on October 17, 2007, 12:29:29 PM
I would like to get FFS at some point, mostly because when I see myself in the mirror my face reminds me too much of my old life
Based on the avatar you don't but I can't really see your face. I had a pic pre-FFS that clocked 100% female but other camera angles were not so kind. All my friends told me I didn't need FFS but they were wrong.
Quote from: melissa90299 on October 17, 2007, 02:28:13 PM
Based on the avatar you don't but I can't really see your face. I had a pic pre-FFS that clocked 100% female but other camera angles were not so kind. All my friends told me I didn't need FFS but they were wrong.
Umm if it helps here are two different angles from the same day (you can see my adam's apple in the first one, which is why I hate having my picture taken without my face at some angle)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi17.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb90%2FKardvark%2FKat%2F100_5868.jpg&hash=8825b7531560a2460b1525fc8e8de5d29616f647)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi17.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb90%2FKardvark%2FKat%2F100_5861.jpg&hash=d004a869264f4a1afbddab435aa8a1d8d14ce109)
I don't particularly want to get FFS, as it is incredibly expensive, but if it got rid of the constant nagging when I look in the mirror it might be worth it :-\
edit: a few more pics are in my blog
Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 03:20:27 AM
few cases? youve not seen me recently have you? nor many young trans people who dont need any...
Kalt yes, i meant you.
R :police:
Mreow.
I wasn't even trying to look like a chick.
Most people say I look likea chick with short hair. Guess the ego went to my head.
Kat no offense, outside a trach shave. I highly recommend AGAINST it. You are one of the people where I say, its not only unwise, but its completely off base. The only reason that nagging is there, is because you still see a boy, but the reality is you always had a highly feminine face and structure. You do not need it, you should not get it, and its not worth the risk. You fall into the category of people who mention FFS, which I will always say, its a bad idea all around. As much as you have those thoughts in your head, you need to get them out, an extremely expensive surgery with long recovery times is not needed for somebody who already looks like a girl and a rather cute one at that.
You may have that nagging feeling, but you completely pass. To be honest, I am a bit jealous. You were born with a beautiful face.
Whatever angle you show, you will still look female. Please...you need more self confidence, not an expensive surgery. Whatever you are seeing is not really there.
Kat, if you run away from what you were which is part of who you are today, then when will you STOP running?
It's easy to never look back, but if you don't have a past to stand on then you're doing nothing but falling.
Getting FFS for the sole purpose of hiding from yourself isn't going to work.
Read a poem called, "Man in the Glass."
Replace the pronouns if you wanna, just try to get the whole idea of it.
The Man in the Glass
When you get what you want in your struggle for "self"
And the world makes you "King" for one day
Then go to the mirror and look at yourself
And see what that man has to say.
'Cause it isn't your father or mother or spouse
Whose judgments upon you must pass.
But the fellow whose verdict counts most in your life
Is the man staring back from the glass.
He's the fellow to please, never mind all the rest
For he's with you clear up to the end.
And you've passed your most difficult, dangerous test
If the man in the glass is your friend.
You may be like Jack Horner and chisel a plum
And think you're a wonderful guy
But the man in the glass says "You're only a bum"
If you can't look him straight in the eye.
You may fool yourself down the pathway of years
And get pats on the back as you pass
But your final reward will be heartache and tears
If you've cheated the man in the glass.
melissa: everwhere people will be able to read transwmen? no, i dont think so, for a start, if you pass, you pass, and just knowing about trans people and accepting them wont give everyone magic ->-bleeped-<-dar... ive passed with ts people, so i KNOW it is possible to pass with TG educated folk, infact when i told the woman, she asked if i was m2f or f2m... so even KNOWING cant put you on the right path.... id not be laying down laws if i were you...
R :police:
Quote from: Rachael on October 17, 2007, 06:12:57 PM
melissa: everwhere people will be able to read transwmen? no, i dont think so, for a start, if you pass, you pass, and just knowing about trans people and accepting them wont give everyone magic ->-bleeped-<-dar... ive passed with ts people, so i KNOW it is possible to pass with TG educated folk, infact when i told the woman, she asked if i was m2f or f2m... so even KNOWING cant put you on the right path.... id not be laying down laws if i were you...
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I don't understand why you need to convince
me how well you "pass."
Quite apropos that the woman was confused as to whether or not you were MtF or FtM, tbh I see you as androgynous.
Posted on: October 17, 2007, 11:33:48 PM
Quote from: Amy T. on October 17, 2007, 03:06:21 PM
Kat no offense, outside a trach shave. I highly recommend AGAINST it. You are one of the people where I say, its not only unwise, but its completely off base. The only reason that nagging is there, is because you still see a boy, but the reality is you always had a highly feminine face and structure. You do not need it, you should not get it, and its not worth the risk. You fall into the category of people who mention FFS, which I will always say, its a bad idea all around. As much as you have those thoughts in your head, you need to get them out, an extremely expensive surgery with long recovery times is not needed for somebody who already looks like a girl and a rather cute one at that.
You may have that nagging feeling, but you completely pass. To be honest, I am a bit jealous. You were born with a beautiful face.
Whatever angle you show, you will still look female. Please...you need more self confidence, not an expensive surgery. Whatever you are seeing is not really there.
Except that she would be absolutely awesome if she had FFS. Or maybe just a rhino.
why bother with ffs? most females arent perfect feminine proportions anyway?
I wasnt convincing you melissa, i was pointing out your 'blessed informed people' like sanfransisco, cant read any trans person... :) dont tel me they have infinate ->-bleeped-<-dars there... i might just snort tea on my pc...
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Quote from: Rachael on October 18, 2007, 02:50:16 AM
why bother with ffs? most females arent perfect feminine proportions anyway?
I wasnt convincing you melissa, i was pointing out your 'blessed informed people' like sanfransisco, cant read any trans person... :) dont tel me they have infinate ->-bleeped-<-dars there... i might just snort tea on my pc...
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I need ffs and saw a surgeon about it yesterday.
Kalt, please do something about your hair! That is a very male hairstyle. The hair (or rather the lack of it) is what is ruining your ability to pass. Grow it out and find a good stylist, make it look feminine and you'll pass brilliantly. I envy your face shape. All you need is bangs.
Quote from: Lisbeth on October 17, 2007, 01:25:26 PM
This is very true, but there are rare exceptions. I think a lot of it has to do with people's experience.
Lately I've been passing--I mean
perceived as the woman I am--quite well! I am now consistently called "Ma'am" everywhere I go, and I can see the look in people's eyes that they don't clock me any more--that clocking look I always used to get is now gone.
But yesterday I went to the post office to buy stamps, and the clerk was smirking at me, it was obvious she'd clocked me. I wondered what was her problem, then I remembered--this was the post office I'd been going to for many years, and she recognized me from before. I'm already so well transitioned into my fulltime life, I'm forgetting that anyone could still see me as a non-woman. So if you really need to avoid getting clocked, you have to take that into consideration. But I just shrug it off.
Quote from: Hypatia on October 18, 2007, 07:55:59 AM
Kalt, please do something about your hair! That is a very male hairstyle. The hair (or rather the lack of it) is what is ruining your ability to pass. Grow it out and find a good stylist, make it look feminine and you'll pass brilliantly. I envy your face shape. All you need is bangs.
Bangs...
Bangs...
Doesn't exceedingly curly hair count?
And it'll grow when it grows>.> I can't speed it up.
Bangs suck>.>
QuoteBut yesterday I went to the post office to buy stamps, and the clerk was smirking at me, it was obvious she'd clocked me. I wondered what was her problem, then I remembered--this was the post office I'd been going to for many years, and she recognized me from before.
I just snorted tea all over my keyboard.
QuoteBut I just shrug it off.
SHRUGS, FTW!
Oh yeah... this isn't bodybuilding.com>.>
Hehehe, go girl!
Melissa, I do not think thats the case with Kat. She is one of the few people that would probably end up looking very similiar, if not the scars would have some negative effect. Overall I think she looks awesome as it is and FFS IS NOT going to make her look any better.
ive seen manlyer looking natal females than kat, and MANY MANY MANY of the members here, namely younger ones, but a decent number of older members look good for thier ages.i do think theres a larger proportion of late teen to early 20s, and upto 30s who can pass almost flawlessly, even in sanfransico and other ->-bleeped-<-dar hotspots...
the younger you are, the more hrt will effect you, its a fact. more growth hormone, more change, less skinny too, too skinny, skin to tight, no boobs and hips etc... too fat again, its a fine ballence. but a large number of people can, and i wager a lot of the trans people who never visit this forum or any, live seamless lives, i will be leaving here once im post op, ill go on to live the normal live i was meant to have just like many others. theres a trend in the trans community to play 'reading' games, and put people down, or claim you can read any treans person ever. hey, if you can read any trans person, Interpol Would love to give you a job iding criminals... cos you obviously have some magic ability.
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Kelt, that's a nice profile pic ..
Quote from: Rachael on October 18, 2007, 10:38:16 AM
ive seen manlyer looking natal females than kat, and MANY MANY MANY of the members here, namely younger ones, but a decent number of older members look good for thier ages.i do think theres a larger proportion of late teen to early 20s, and upto 30s who can pass almost flawlessly, even in sanfransico and other ->-bleeped-<-dar hotspots...
the younger you are, the more hrt will effect you, its a fact. more growth hormone, more change, less skinny too, too skinny, skin to tight, no boobs and hips etc... too fat again, its a fine ballence. but a large number of people can, and i wager a lot of the trans people who never visit this forum or any, live seamless lives, i will be leaving here once im post op, ill go on to live the normal live i was meant to have just like many others. theres a trend in the trans community to play 'reading' games, and put people down, or claim you can read any treans person ever. hey, if you can read any trans person, Interpol Would love to give you a job iding criminals... cos you obviously have some magic ability.
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I'll go to my boss tomorrow.
"Hi Mary, I don't care if you're stunningly beautiful with all the assets in the right places, given birth to 4 kids, happily married to a Major in the USMC and the most typically female bi*** I've ever met, I KNOW YOU USED TO BE A GUY! MY ->-bleeped-<-DAR SAYS SO!"
"uH... what are you on?"
"hormones dude, you want a hit?"
Posted on: October 18, 2007, 12:10:23 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on October 18, 2007, 11:05:09 AM
Kelt, that's a nice profile pic ..
Yours is better:-)
Quote from: kalt on October 18, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
"hormones dude, you want a hit?"
Haha oh I can only picture it now!!! How fantastic that would turn out :P
Quote from: shanetastic on October 18, 2007, 11:29:47 AM
Quote from: kalt on October 18, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
"hormones dude, you want a hit?"
Haha oh I can only picture it now!!! How fantastic that would turn out :P
^_^
I hope I didn't cross the, "self medication" or whatever line with that comment though...
Either way, I'll have to save that whenever the parentals and I get into it:-p
Quote from: kalt on October 18, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: Rachael on October 18, 2007, 10:38:16 AM
ive seen manlyer looking natal females than kat, and MANY MANY MANY of the members here, namely younger ones, but a decent number of older members look good for thier ages.i do think theres a larger proportion of late teen to early 20s, and upto 30s who can pass almost flawlessly, even in sanfransico and other ->-bleeped-<-dar hotspots...
the younger you are, the more hrt will effect you, its a fact. more growth hormone, more change, less skinny too, too skinny, skin to tight, no boobs and hips etc... too fat again, its a fine ballence. but a large number of people can, and i wager a lot of the trans people who never visit this forum or any, live seamless lives, i will be leaving here once im post op, ill go on to live the normal live i was meant to have just like many others. theres a trend in the trans community to play 'reading' games, and put people down, or claim you can read any treans person ever. hey, if you can read any trans person, Interpol Would love to give you a job iding criminals... cos you obviously have some magic ability.
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I'll go to my boss tomorrow.
"Hi Mary, I don't care if you're stunningly beautiful with all the assets in the right places, given birth to 4 kids, happily married to a Major in the USMC and the most typically female bi*** I've ever met, I KNOW YOU USED TO BE A GUY! MY ->-bleeped-<-DAR SAYS SO!"
"uH... what are you on?"
"hormones dude, you want a hit?"
Posted on: October 18, 2007, 12:10:23 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on October 18, 2007, 11:05:09 AM
Kelt, that's a nice profile pic ..
Yours is better:-)
Seriously, what are you smoking, and can i have some?
and the self med thing?
i dont think this site can deney it exists, a good number of us HAVE done, and had to, simply to stay alive... its not that taboo, its just discouraged...
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Quote from: Rachael on October 18, 2007, 01:56:13 PM
Seriously, what are you smoking, and can i have some?
Pregnant horse piss. Sure, lemme go dry some right now!
Quote from: kalt on October 18, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on October 18, 2007, 11:05:09 AM
Kelt, that's a nice profile pic ..
Yours is better:-)
I didn't think it was. Your a lot younger than me and there is a lot of potential there.
Quote from: Berliegh on October 18, 2007, 03:04:43 PM
Quote from: kalt on October 18, 2007, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on October 18, 2007, 11:05:09 AM
Kelt, that's a nice profile pic ..
Yours is better:-)
I didn't think it was. Your a lot younger than me and there is a lot of potential there.
Brazil has a lot of potential. Brazil could take over the world and become more powerful than the USA.
But, the USA is still the supreme, unchallenged, most powerful supernation in this galaxy.
dont you mean china? and im sure thier planning to...
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Quote from: Rachael on October 18, 2007, 04:26:37 PM
dont you mean china? and im sure thier planning to...
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Only prob is... China could pull it off if our politicians and media keep hating their own country and wanting our troops and kids to die.
you were joining the USMC with that attitude? along with the femininity, im glad your out, youd have been whupped silly for that sort of talk, while i admit its not entirely wrong :)
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Quote from: Rachael on October 18, 2007, 06:15:51 PM
you were joining the USMC with that attitude? along with the femininity, im glad your out, youd have been whupped silly for that sort of talk, while i admit its not entirely wrong :)
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heh, yeah you're right.
Then again, I find that most marines, when you bond with them in a guy-guy way, can be open to discussions about nearly anything that isn't against their number one rule: be machoman. Also there's the problem of getting them to talk about something other than tits and ass... that's liek getting a politician away prostitutes and pain killers.
question the corps however or why they are dieing in foreign soil... and die a painful death...
and why would you want to bond in a guy-guy way with them ? :P
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Quote from: Rachael on October 18, 2007, 09:03:25 PM
question the corps however or why they are dieing in foreign soil... and die a painful death...
and why would you want to bond in a guy-guy way with them ? :P
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ALl marines who serve together are bonded in a guy-guy way.
nope, I ask a marine what he thinks of people dying on foreign soil and he says, "better me to die over seas than my chilren to die by those terrorist ->-bleeped-<-s over here."
Quote from: melissa90299 on October 14, 2007, 11:10:04 AM
From Chagdud Rinpoche's 'Gates to Buddhist Practice':
"To understand how delusion arises, practice watching your mind.
Begin by simply letting it relax. Without thinking of the past or the future, without feeling hope or fear about this thing or that, let it rest comfortably, open and natural. In this space of the mind, there is no problem, no suffering.
Then something catches your attention--an image, a sound, a smell. Your mind splits into inner and outer, self and other, subject and object. In simply perceiving the object, there is still no problem.
But when you zero in on it, you notice that it's big or small, white or black, square or circular; and then you make a judgment-- for example, whether it's pretty or ugly. Having made that judgment, you react to it: you decide you like it or don't like it. That's when the problem starts, because "I like it" leads to "I want it." We want to possess what we perceive to be desirable. Similarly, "I don't like it" leads to "I don't want it." If we like something, want it, and can't have it, we suffer. If we don't want it, but can't keep it away, again we suffer. Our suffering seems to occur because of the object of our desire or aversion, but that's not really so -- it happens because the mind splits into object-subject duality and becomes involved in wanting or not wanting something.
We often think the only way to create happiness is to try to control the outer circumstances of our lives, to try to fix what seems wrong or to get rid of everything that bothers us. But the real problem lies in our reaction to those circumstances. What we have to change is the mind and the way it experiences reality."
Just bringing this forward. I think it says a lot about the way most of us incorrectly perceive
virtually everything.
yes, if one paticualar religion was correct...
oh noes, some dusty old guys who died many many years ago tell me to live this way... sounds a lot like the 'you will be a boy' routine....
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