Is it this easy for some people to spot trans woman given most in his test were shown in glamour shots with good lighting, makeup, hair, shoulders pulled back.
Even popular transgirls like princess joules, Gigi gorgeous, Nikita dragon, Ava Sabrina, yasmine petty(to name a few) aren't 100% clock proof despite being attractive and almost looking female.
I would like to live in total stealth hopefully after SRS, but now starting to think if this is a realistic goal?
I have heard some girls here about living in complete stealth for years including not telling their long term partners, makes me wonder if it's even possible in current times.
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In my opinion, unless you are 5'4 and under, with a feminine frame to begin with, and started hormones before puberty... you'll be clock by at least 1 person (if not cisgender, then by transgender people) after transitioning. It's not just the jaw, the hairline, the makeup, and all that... there's something else, I can't describe it.
I wouldn't stress about it. It's something that's inevitable. The most passable transgender I noticed, don't try to be beautiful but rather frumpy. Frumpy makes you look normal/average, and so I think if you want to avoid being clock, just don't care about your looks as Gigi Gorgeous.
QuoteI would like to live in total stealth hopefully after SRS, but now starting to think if this is a realistic goal?
One thing, don't dress to bring attention to yourself. I've seen some cross dressers wear something that's totally inappropriate and they stick out like a sore thumb. Back when I was info full cross dressing, I'd try for the "plain Jane" look, as it was easiest to achieve and not cause me to stand out.
Quote from: Wild Flower on March 24, 2017, 06:01:02 AM
In my opinion, unless you are 5'4 and under, with a feminine frame to begin with, and started hormones before puberty... you'll be clock by at least 1 person (if not cisgender, then by transgender people) after transitioning. It's not just the jaw, the hairline, the makeup, and all that... there's something else, I can't describe it.
I wouldn't stress about it. It's something that's inevitable. The most passable transgender I noticed, don't try to be beautiful but rather frumpy. Frumpy makes you look normal/average, and so I think if you want to avoid being clock, just don't care about your looks as Gigi Gorgeous.
True to an extent, but you can dress casual/chic and still pass and not mistaken for a cross-dresser. Also, you can be fully passable and also beautiful facially. I agree that if you don't want to bring attention to yourself, dress down. Most ts who are able to live stealthy lives do not come out like Gigi Gorgeous did. Gigi Gorgeous is beautiful but she was not completely passable before FFS. Therefore, she might value it differently. She likes the fame she gets by the T flag.
Quote from: Wild Flower on March 24, 2017, 06:01:02 AM
In my opinion, unless you are 5'4 and under, with a feminine frame to begin with, and started hormones before puberty... you'll be clock by at least 1 person (if not cisgender, then by transgender people) after transitioning. It's not just the jaw, the hairline, the makeup, and all that... there's something else, I can't describe it.
I wouldn't stress about it. It's something that's inevitable. The most passable transgender I noticed, don't try to be beautiful but rather frumpy. Frumpy makes you look normal/average, and so I think if you want to avoid being clock, just don't care about your looks as Gigi Gorgeous.
I agree to some extent in that most that I find have stealth potential are girls that start early on (have the right genetics) and often have the plain Jane look. But the girls I was mentioning about started a bit late in their twenties after male puberty.
Also if one has truly achieved stealth, it shouldn't be that easily weakened by their attire,makeup,hair choices. And if it can be then it's not true / complete stealth. Like no one would ever question Pamela Anderson, Courtney stodden or Anna Nicole smith for being a transsexual.
But yes I am starting to think that stealth and being very attractive/hot/beautiful doesn't go hand in hand for the vast majority of trans girls.
Wonder if people like Caroline Cossey would have been able to maintain stealth for that long in today's times ?
My take on it is I thought stealth was making sure no one knows by doing things that you may think will stop people from knowing. Like changing all docs, not posting here or anywhere else about being trans, not posting any before shots, burning your entire pre-transition life, etc. Even if you did all of this, you can't stop people from clocking you 100%. And that's because even some cis-women are clockable lol I see some cis women and know some that look way more masculine then me or other trans-girls I know or have seen( youtube, pics, etc). So I guess they've been "clocked". I remember watching this youtube video and was like hey she's one of us... Nope, she was cis but had a very strong jaw and square chin. I researched her because I was so confused lol Found prego shots of her and all that stuff. Sooooo unless she went through the hassle of going into a hospital got one of those fake baby stomachs and did the best makeup ever to conceal where the silicon or latex would meet the skin, that was proof enough for me. Made me feel better about myself too, like "huh, I guess even cis-girls could look sort of masculine but still be beautiful and make people think". So yes i do think that you can live stealth still, but do not get upset or put down by the fact that at a few people will clock you eventually. And remember, cis-women get clocked too :)
It isn't a matter of living "stealth" so much as being absolutely clear what it is we want. What we need. For me, I needed to be gendered properly.
So what does that take? We're all pretty familiar with changes to embodiment -- face, voice, secondary sex characteristics -- for after all, gender is initially assigned automatically, subconsciously, by everyone we meet, based on initial embodiment. But what about in longer-term relationships? Friendships, colleagues, lovers, and so on...
Unfortunately, the narrative of having switched from one gender to another generally doesn't facilitate the gendering we desire. So when we're talking about "stealth" what's really at issue here is an issue of narrative, of the stories we tell about ourselves, and the stories that other people tell about us. So there are stories we don't tell. And we live in a way that doesn't raise unpleasant stories in other peoples' heads -- we learn how to be properly socialized within our gender. And that's really all it takes. It's not actually rocket science.
Looking at this from a societal standpoint, I would rather have better trans-awareness than have to live stealth. I am so very greatful to ever trans person who has paved the road that I walk today. Those that had to live stealth, who proved it could be done. And those who lived openly, facing the challenges of society to make the world a better place. I do not live stealth, but I also am not that public about discussing my past. Those who know, do not make it an issue and I have not ever felt that I am unwelcomed in my neighborhood. Do I live stealth? Well kind of (despite the rainbow flag that flies in front of my house). However, I am never afraid to tell my story to those that it can help, to those who can learn from my experience, and to those who I can educate.
I value privacy so greatly, but I value societal acceptance more. To live in a society where it doen't matter if you are a cis-woman, a trans-guy, or a non-binary individual would be amazing. In a world where pepole are free to live as who they are and explore who they can be without judgement or fear of ridicule would be incredible. But we do not live in that world, and just reading about how many trans-women are murdered each year breaks my heart. This is why many of us long to live stealth, so that we do not stand out, so that we disappear into society. Every death of a trans-person reinforces my belief that we need trans awareness more everyday. We need to let people know that we are here, we are valued members of society, and our lives matter. If increasing trans awareness deminishes the ability of people to live stealth, but it also reduces the number of trans-pwople murdered, I will take that trade-off.
Equal rights, acceptance, and freedom are worth fighting for and ultimately it should not matter if you are transgendered or cis. You are human, beautiful, and you matter...
I've actually found that being an average-looking middle-aged woman who dresses in the same bland clothes as the other women her age is like a magic spell when it comes to not being noticed. :) It's not just that I'm not identified as trans; I'm not even *noticed,* because our society mostly overlooks women who aren't young and pretty. And the less people look at me, the less likely they are to think anything at all about me...
(There was a rumor at my current job that one of the newer hires was trans, probably because the outgoing director was both disgruntled and tight with HR. I overheard several people talking about it, and opinions were divided between the new director, who is tall and strong-featured, and the new IT guy, who's kinda small and slightly built. The rumor died out quickly, thank goodness, but nobody gave me a second thought.)
Quote from: Jenna Marie on March 24, 2017, 11:05:44 AM
I've actually found that being an average-looking middle-aged woman who dresses in the same bland clothes as the other women her age is like a magic spell when it comes to not being noticed. :) It's not just that I'm not identified as trans; I'm not even *noticed,* because our society mostly overlooks women who aren't young and pretty. And the less people look at me, the less likely they are to think anything at all about me...
Absolutely! Being older, in any sort of reasonable shape, and just dressing to fit in does wonders for passing in public.
Nobody seems to tray and call out an older person in public. Very few people seem to even notice us. Oh, I occasionally get checked out by older men on the street, but I don't see any sign of being clocked. The older guys don't seem interested in my face. ;D It may help that my waist/hip ratio is better than about 90% of US women in the 60-70 year old range, and weight is in the bottom percentile. It just amazes me how quickly people make a judgement on the visible markers a person presents.
I try to get the posture right, and always have parted lips and a bit of a smile when in public. When passing other women who happen to look at me, I smile a little more, nod my head, and say "Good morning" or similar as we pass. I usually get a smile in return.
If I want to be totally invisible, I have a wig that is a mix of silver-gray and dark hairs, a bit curly and with bangs that cover the forehead. Nobody notices me when I wear that. Eye contact is minimal, and I feel like the Invisible Woman. It's another instant judgement people make; Gray means old and uninteresting, so ignore them.
I'd love to know how much of this instant judgement stuff is hardwired into the brain, and how much is social conditioning incorporated so deeply that these snap judgements are possible. I do know that the more gender identifying cues I get right the easier passing on the street becomes. It's annoying, and a lot of work, but I feel it makes me safer these days.
I think stealth is achievable for some. We as humans have mental models of everything around us. These models are basically the generic stereotype that our brains create so there is minimal mental effort in processing our surroundings and world. They work like heuristics- mental shortcuts. Every building we come across we instantly categorize, schools, stores, office, church, house, etc. if you think of "dog" a generic mental image is bound to pop up in your mind. We of course have these models for genders as well. Every person we encounter has the brain trying to automatically categorize each individual as quickly and effortlessly as possible. If something doesn't quite fit into the model we either look for more information to categorize correctly OR our brain simply ignores the information through selective attention.
I think there is also mental models coming into the norm of society of what a transwoman is. We all hold one which makes our internal clocking that much stronger.
I think we need to be aware that these trans mental models are becoming more common in the general public and to the best of our ability try to draw attention from any of these.
This is different than trying to fit the model for a cis female or male as well.
An example would be:
The person in front of you is tall say 5'11". A "V" type body frame. Okay that's male (from behind). But their hair is shoulder length and obviously styled. female.
Out brain at this point has a mismatch and is trying to decide where to put this person. Maybe into the third, trans category. We need more information.we look at their outfit. Hmm jeans and a tshirt. Not helpful. Shoes? Boots, but we can't see the front yet. Still not too helpful. They aren't carrying a purse, but we do notice their wallet. Red leather with gold button- low profile.
Okay they are turning around. Hmm okay this person is in their 50s, sagging skin around the neck. Adam's apple or just skin? Chest. Ah, there's a bulge. So breasts? Hmm what does the rest of their body look like? Well they are heavy set but muscular. Could that just be muscle and or fat?
They then say a few words to the cashier a little high pitches but still gravely. Okay toss up. What does the brain do, its lazy and you suspect they might be trans, but not sure. The person in front grabs there bag of goods, but there's a tear. Out falls some cough drops, a pack of cigarettes, and NyQuil. They go to pick up the items, look at you, sigh, and murmur "why the heck do people go to work sick... I have to give this sales pitch later today and what client is gonna want to listen to this voice for 30 minutes?"
---------
So, is this person male, female, or trans?
I think most would say female... with a cold.
My point is out brains are lazy, and we can use that to our advantage. If there is enough evidence for one category, all the outlier clues are either justified or completely ignored. We don't see the world objectively, as it actually is, we see it "good enough" to get through the day.
How well did you do on this attention test?
https://youtu.be/vJG698U2Mvo
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 07:32:40 AM
I agree to some extent in that most that I find have stealth potential are girls that start early on (have the right genetics) and often have the plain Jane look. But the girls I was mentioning about started a bit late in their twenties after male puberty.
Also if one has truly achieved stealth, it shouldn't be that easily weakened by their attire,makeup,hair choices. And if it can be then it's not true / complete stealth. Like no one would ever question Pamela Anderson, Courtney stodden or Anna Nicole smith for being a transsexual.
But yes I am starting to think that stealth and being very attractive/hot/beautiful doesn't go hand in hand for the vast majority of trans girls.
Wonder if people like Caroline Cossey would have been able to maintain stealth for that long in today's times ?
I had to look up Courtney Stodden, I wouldn't question, but if you told me she was I would believe it. If you told me Lindsay Lohan was... I wouldn't believe it. Pamela Anderson, hands down couldn't pass as transgender.
Kate Winslet could pass as a transgender woman. Cher and Jessica Parker too.
We are hyper critical of each other. Most of the cis world could care less and doesn't even notice us. If you're very young and have masculine features, it's harder, particularly if you're in a room full of young women. But for us old broads? no one really even cares. If we don't dress like Bim's and are put together fairly well, we're good to go.
One of the most annoying things I see on this site is the overwhelming obsession with some of the most inane things. In many cases it actually makes us look like a bunch of self involved and narcissistic children. I'm probably gonna get flamed, but that's how I feel about the subject. :(
Quote from: Iliana.Found on March 24, 2017, 08:11:01 AM
And that's because even some cis-women are clockable lol I see some cis women and know some that look way more masculine then me or other trans-girls I know or have seen( youtube, pics, etc). So I guess they've been "clocked". I remember watching this youtube video and was like hey she's one of us... Nope, she was cis but had a very strong jaw and square chin. And remember, cis-women get clocked too :)
Iliana,
I have heard about cis women getting clocked but I have a hard time believing it given I have an extremely strong transdar(which I hate about myself). I think women with so many masculine features that one would question their gender is extremely rare(probably 0.1 %). Also for that small precentage, generally they would only be mistaken for being trans in static pics. In real life despite of their masculinity, you would instantly know they are female once you talk to them.
For me in real life, it only happened once on my Amtrak trip from Denver to San Francisco. During lunch on the train, we shared table with a very butch firefighter/body builder lesbian women(from tenderloin district in SF). Heavy browridge, muscular body, strong jaw line, but the moment she started talking we knew she wasnt trans. There was something very distinctly female about her despite her masculine physical looks.
Like I would never ever even think someone like Lisa Leslie would be trans(despite having trans qualities) but could figure out Alexia Cresani(though this was a tough one, initially just based on my gut feeling) was trans from on her instagram pics without knowing 1)anything about her history and 2) that she edited all hers pics). Once I saw her in video, I had no doubts.
Sophia,
Well my number 1 objective From stealth is no body ever knowing/questioning at my future job( based on my physical looks, voice and behavior).
Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 24, 2017, 08:48:27 AM
We're all pretty familiar with changes to embodiment -- face, voice, secondary sex characteristics -- for after all, gender is initially assigned automatically, subconsciously, by everyone we meet, based on initial embodiment. But what about in longer-term relationships? Friendships, colleagues, lovers, and so on...
Unfortunately, the narrative of having switched from one gender to another generally doesn't facilitate the gendering we desire.
I got a little confused here, where you able to achieve that in long term relationships? Or that was not your objective?
Quote from: jentay1367 on March 24, 2017, 04:06:07 PM
One of the most annoying things I see on this site is the overwhelming obsession with some of the most inane things. In many cases it actually makes us look like a bunch of self involved and narcissistic children. I'm probably gonna get flamed, but that's how I feel about the subject. :(
No flames. Promise. I do agree with the point if inane things. I can understand it though. All of a sudden I think we all feel like we are in the spotlight, and a not so friendly spotlight with that. I know I'm much more aware of my surroundings and how I present. Blame it on social and political climate or just the awareness the past year has brought that there is a significant portion of the population that do still have issues with the trans community. I feel like, yes this is still the same world, but I think I tricked myself into believing society was past all the bias, hate, and fear. While nothing has really changed, I am now hyper aware.
Quote from: Inarasarah on March 24, 2017, 10:37:37 AM
Looking at this from a societal standpoint, I would rather have better trans-awareness than have to live stealth. I am so very greatful to ever trans person who has paved the road that I walk today. Those that had to live stealth, who proved it could be done. And those who lived openly, facing the challenges of society to make the world a better place. I do not live stealth, but I also am not that public about discussing my past. Those who know, do not make it an issue and I have not ever felt that I am unwelcomed in my neighborhood. Do I live stealth? Well kind of (despite the rainbow flag that flies in front of my house). However, I am never afraid to tell my story to those that it can help, to those who can learn from my experience, and to those who I can educate.
I value privacy so greatly, but I value societal acceptance more. To live in a society where it doen't matter if you are a cis-woman, a trans-guy, or a non-binary individual would be amazing. In a world where pepole are free to live as who they are and explore who they can be without judgement or fear of ridicule would be incredible. But we do not live in that world, and just reading about how many trans-women are murdered each year breaks my heart. This is why many of us long to live stealth, so that we do not stand out, so that we disappear into society. Every death of a trans-person reinforces my belief that we need trans awareness more everyday. We need to let people know that we are here, we are valued members of society, and our lives matter. If increasing trans awareness deminishes the ability of people to live stealth, but it also reduces the number of trans-pwople murdered, I will take that trade-off.
Equal rights, acceptance, and freedom are worth fighting for and ultimately it should not matter if you are transgendered or cis. You are human, beautiful, and you matter...
Sarah,
I agree/respect everything you said and am glad about trans awareness is becoming the highlighted issues. Also if one has true potential of stealth and wants that, trans awareness doesn't really hinder them at all.
Jenna and Michelle,
I agree a bit older definitely helps.
Quote from: jentay1367 on March 24, 2017, 04:06:07 PM
We are hyper critical of each other. Most of the cis world could care less and doesn't even notice us. If you're very young and have masculine features, it's harder, particularly if you're in a room full of young women. But for us old broads? no one really even cares. If we don't dress like Bim's and are put together fairly well, we're good to go.
One of the most annoying things I see on this site is the overwhelming obsession with some of the most inane things. In many cases it actually makes us look like a bunch of self involved and narcissistic children. I'm probably gonna get flamed, but that's how I feel about the subject. :(
I respectfully disagree with you. Cis people do care and notice unless you are invisible to , worthless of their attention and not posing any threat on any level to their egos.
Also just curious what you find inane, is it the desire to living stealth or the impact of trans awareness on ones stealth potential or both?
As far as being the narcissistic, self involved thing goes, I think it's more of a generation thing than a trans or Susan's thing.
Quote from: Brooke on March 24, 2017, 05:02:42 PM
No flames. Promise. I do agree with the point if inane things. I can understand it though. All of a sudden I think we all feel like we are in the spotlight, and a not so friendly spotlight with that. I know I'm much more aware of my surroundings and how I present. Blame it on social and political climate or just the awareness the past year has brought that there is a significant portion of the population that do still have issues with the trans community. I feel like, yes this is still the same world, but I think I tricked myself into believing society was past all the bias, hate, and fear. While nothing has really changed, I am now hyper aware.
I agree about the bias, hate and fear aspect despite of all the awareness. I guess that depends on where we live too.
Now that I think about it, there also seem to be two predominant archetypes in the media for trans women right now: the "Transparent" type who has a number of stereotypically male features and the drop-dead gorgeous model types (Laverne Cox, Caitlyn Jenner, etc.). Nobody seems to realize even yet that the third type, the "looks basically like every other woman, neither especially masculine nor outrageously gorgeous" kind, actually exists. And I think we're probably the majority, since most cis women aren't supermodels either...
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 04:41:05 PM
I have heard about cis women getting clocked but I have a hard time believing it given I have an extremely strong transdar(which I hate about myself). I think women with so many masculine features that one would question their gender is extremely rare(probably 0.1 %).
This is a highly subjective matter. During my 30 minute walk from home to work in central London, I can easily spot around 5 females that look like trans to me.
Most of us just aren't distinctive or remarkable enough for a casual glance or quick look on the street to invite more detailed examination. Most folks out in the world are just trying to get to their next appointment, or finish shopping before school lets out, or get the next sales call wrapped up. They are not playing 'Spot the Trans Person.'
That combination lets most of us just slide on by if we can just mask the most obvious tells, and show something like a reasonable appearance and posture.
I constantly see all sorts of discussion over fussy details, how one should hold one's hands, bent or straight elbows, optimal waist to hip ratios, and so on. Look at the ciswomen on the street, and see how many of them in your age range meet the criteria you are supposed to meet to "pass."
I know for the 60+ set, most ciswomen don't "pass" by the criteria I see laid down. Age, wear, and tear has taken it's toll on posture, silhouette, and stance. Being stealth, looking like the ciswomen my age, seems in reach to me, and I don't see any arcane knowledge imparted by what passes for trans awareness impacting that.
i wouldnt include caitlyn jenner in the "drop dead gorgeous" Jenna Marie . Its not even because she is old, she has a complete plastic face its unreal and not even pretty. She has a makeup artist using tons of products and hair artist everyday to make her look the way she does + photoshop. However i would say laverne cox, carmen carrera Gigi gorgeous, Andreja pejic, Jenna telackova etc. as drop dead gorgeous models
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The awareness means more people are looking to spot. That's the impression I've got at least. It's now on people's radars where before they probably wouldn't have even looked twice. Although still it is usually the transwomen they are more aware of and society makes more of a (negative) fuss about.
Quote from: Aurorasky on March 24, 2017, 06:46:02 AM
True to an extent, but you can dress casual/chic and still pass and not mistaken for a cross-dresser. Also, you can be fully passable and also beautiful facially. I agree that if you don't want to bring attention to yourself, dress down. Most ts who are able to live stealthy lives do not come out like Gigi Gorgeous did. Gigi Gorgeous is beautiful but she was not completely passable before FFS. Therefore, she might value it differently. She likes the fame she gets by the T flag.
She still not passable esp by what I seen of her at the airport at Dubai ... and I thought she would have done the electrologist route because that 5 o clock shadow was very very dark. I use to think she was passable. But out of drag ? No ma'am. But still pretty tho
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Maybe I am missing something but having lived in almost 6 countries including the some where women don't wear any/minimal makeup and almost always wear their hair naturally, I never ever thought of any being trans except some bodybuilder/wrestler type in US.
Though agree that a plain yet feminine look helps more with deep stealth than the someone who is very attractive getting too much attention. But then there is all of those exaggerated women I see in Southern California and nobody doubts them being trans.
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 10:50:07 PM
Maybe I am missing something but having lived in almost 6 countries including the some where women don't wear any/minimal makeup and almost always wear their hair naturally, I never ever thought of any being trans except some bodybuilder/wrestler type in US.
Though agree that a plain yet feminine look helps more with deep stealth than the someone who is very attractive getting too much attention. But then there is all of those exaggerated women I see in Southern California and nobody doubts them being trans.
I never understood that either. Like the body builder women I be like in my trans head "is that a man or a woman " (I think we are all guilty of this ) or a plastic surgery addict cis perfected woman .... surely they get that "are they real or trans " from other cis society norms ...
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Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 04:56:30 PM
Sophia,
Well my number 1 objective From stealth is no body ever knowing/questioning at my future job( based on my physical looks, voice and behavior).
I wouldn't limit myself to a future job -- my goal was to never have a conversation with
anyone not already in the know about these issues. (Well, with the exception the occasional doctor.)
QuoteI got a little confused here, where you able to achieve that in long term relationships? Or that was not your objective?
Sorry, got a bit distracted writing that previous post.
Yes, I've achieved that in long-term relationships -- professional, personal, and intimate. It doesn't seem any different for me today personally than it did twenty years ago.
Most of us are not going to achieve physical "perfection" -- but we can be solidly in the right range. There's a hell of a lot we can do to get there. (The importance of voice is still deeply underrated.) And once we've done what we can do, it's just a matter of getting out there and living the life.
Socialization can take time. Some of it is predicated on passing. Absorb like a sponge.
So many get hung up on narrative, though. So much depends upon what your personal truth is. If your personal truth is that you're
trans, a life of non-disclosure isn't going to be very satisfying in the long run. Sorry, but being trans kind of depends on maintaining that narrative, either through physical gender variance or through storytelling. On the other hand, if your personal truth is that you're on the binary, then non-disclosure makes a whole lot more sense, but then there's a lot more to... account for. We have to go back and rummage around in all our memories, rebuilding them to reflect the truth of being on the correct side of the binary, and how that played into all our relationships and all our choices throughout our lives. To do so with integrity can be challenging.
Not that any of those stories are stories that will be told. That's not the point. The point is simply to get everything in your life to cohere, narratively speaking. That's all. It's a synthesis, an integration.
And so we take that
eidos and hold it close as we step out into the world. It's amazing how far we can go with a modicum of confidence...
When I first thought of transitioning being in stealth was my final goal. I'm truly lucky, 5ft 6ins 130 ibs and fine boned. took speech thearapy learned to walk and develop feminine movements. My ffs and ba made me pass without a second glance. So I now look and behave like a female. Then my whole attitude did a U turn. Had my srs and no longer wanted to continue my life of lies. I lied to myself and my friends by not coming out honestly as my real self. Now that I feel comfortable in body and mind I dont want to hide that I was a male. This, to me would be living yet another lie. I am today so very proud to be the 3rd gender. We truly are blessed to live two lives in a lifetime.
So I now and "behave " like a woman ? Honey women act different ways some of trans sound like misogynistic patriarchy types ....
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I am petite -5'3, I am not supermodel gorgeous but I can say I am pretty... I am very passable and have been living stealth for a very long time.... It can be a very lonely life... Hard to develop real new friendships...You'll be always hiding a part of u....And I agree that no matter how passable u r, someone sowhere can/ will clock u or betray u...U can still try to look pretty and dress well/ not average and not be clocked but the sexier, the sluttier or the more overdone ur make up etc d more likelihood that you'll get clocked.... Relationship wise you'll be paranoid... I try to go for d sweet ethereal girl next door aura look and I can say I think I am successful in living stealth but again it is a very lonely life... U really would have to cut off people and friends from your life bec they'll talk with or without ill motives, intentional or accidental....
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 03:35:25 AM
I have heard some girls here about living in complete stealth for years including not telling their long term partners, makes me wonder if it's even possible in current times.
I have often wondered is there many girls that live completely stealth without telling their long term partners, love to know how they deal with that, I would find that difficult, I live stealth now as a married woman but my husband does know, I told him before we got married, I pass perfectly, I don't stand out, at the shopping mall doing my grocery shopping nobody gives me a second glance, just another boring housewife.
Clocking literally makes no sense to me.
When someones changed their gender marker on all their pieces of ID and mostly transitioned, what honestly do they have to fear from some random calling them out incorrectly? And I say incorrectly because biologically, legally, and visually, they ARE the gender they are presenting, who cares if they're not representing someone else's ideal for what they should be?
If someone raises a stink one day because I'm in the ladies room, and I'm confronted about what I'm doing in there my response is going to be; 'Changing my pad, *censored* off, I'm not in the mood!'
Quote from: Kylo on March 24, 2017, 07:48:44 PM
The awareness means more people are looking to spot. That's the impression I've got at least. It's now on people's radars where before they probably wouldn't have even looked twice. Although still it is usually the transwomen they are more aware of and society makes more of a (negative) fuss about.
I find we're only on SOME peoples radars. Most people don't care enough to stand there at the mall or bus stop saying; 'Thats an FtM/MtF for sure, check out their *whatever.*' That takes a special kind of loser. (Sure, there may be LOTS of losers out there.)
Quote from: Inarasarah on March 24, 2017, 10:37:37 AM
Looking at this from a societal standpoint, I would rather have better trans-awareness than have to live stealth. I am so very greatful to ever trans person who has paved the road that I walk today. Those that had to live stealth, who proved it could be done. And those who lived openly, facing the challenges of society to make the world a better place. I do not live stealth, but I also am not that public about discussing my past. Those who know, do not make it an issue and I have not ever felt that I am unwelcomed in my neighborhood. Do I live stealth? Well kind of (despite the rainbow flag that flies in front of my house). However, I am never afraid to tell my story to those that it can help, to those who can learn from my experience, and to those who I can educate.
I value privacy so greatly, but I value societal acceptance more. To live in a society where it doen't matter if you are a cis-woman, a trans-guy, or a non-binary individual would be amazing. In a world where pepole are free to live as who they are and explore who they can be without judgement or fear of ridicule would be incredible. But we do not live in that world, and just reading about how many trans-women are murdered each year breaks my heart. This is why many of us long to live stealth, so that we do not stand out, so that we disappear into society. Every death of a trans-person reinforces my belief that we need trans awareness more everyday. We need to let people know that we are here, we are valued members of society, and our lives matter. If increasing trans awareness deminishes the ability of people to live stealth, but it also reduces the number of trans-pwople murdered, I will take that trade-off.
Equal rights, acceptance, and freedom are worth fighting for and ultimately it should not matter if you are transgendered or cis. You are human, beautiful, and you matter...
I couldn't agree more.
Quote from: Jenna Marie on March 24, 2017, 05:41:10 PM
Now that I think about it, there also seem to be two predominant archetypes in the media for trans women right now: the "Transparent" type who has a number of stereotypically male features and the drop-dead gorgeous model types (Laverne Cox, Caitlyn Jenner, etc.). Nobody seems to realize even yet that the third type, the "looks basically like every other woman, neither especially masculine nor outrageously gorgeous" kind, actually exists. And I think we're probably the majority, since most cis women aren't supermodels either...
I never understood why cis-gender women don't try to look their best. Even as a guy, I try to look attractive, I used to stop traffic just with my looks alone (not lying; like when I wear a white shirts, and try to go across the street and I'm like a 3-minute distance, cars would literally stop when most of the time they will speed past me), I had people coming up to me in the malls just to talk to me. I saw the "gaze" in their eyes. It was thrilling.
The cons are usually people think they have ownership of you, like too many guys put their hands on me... when it's not needed. I had guys touching my face, my shoulders all the time. One straight guy even touched my butt while drunk, and another guy said I smell like a woman (I was wearing a lotion with pheromones that day).
That's not happening much right now (actually I been getting hit on by straight women lately; not sure that's a good thing), but that's because I don't have my beauty regime at high maintenance at the moment. Need to lose 20 lbs too.
Quote from: warlockmaker on March 25, 2017, 12:29:09 AM
We truly are blessed to live two lives in a lifetime.
Sage words. I often reflect on how special I am to have all of my unique experiences. I would not be the woman I am today had I not been the man I once was. While I hold no regrets nor sense of loss for the person I once was, I do feel blessed to have walked the path I have.
Quote from: Inarasarah on March 25, 2017, 10:44:09 AM
Sage words. I often reflect on how special I am to have all of my unique experiences. I would not be the woman I am today had I not been the man I once was. While I hold no regrets nor sense of loss for the person I once was, I do feel blessed to have walked the path I have.
Never thought it like that, but it's true, at least for me. I can read people so fast, and it takes weeks if not months for others. People read the obvious, but I read the subtle hidden psychologies of people. I can pick up bisexuality in people so fast too. If a woman finds me as a guy attractive, she's slightly lesbian... because I am not the average man at all.
Quote from: Miss Lux on March 25, 2017, 01:49:45 AMI am petite -5'3, I am not supermodel gorgeous but I can say I am pretty... I am very passable and have been living stealth for a very long time.... It can be a very lonely life... Hard to develop real new friendships...You'll be always hiding a part of u....
"Always hiding a part of u..."
...it doesn't feel that way to me. I am female. This is my basic truth, and it's confirmed by the world every day. To me, invoking a trans narrative would get in the way of that. It would
hide who I am. Now, do agree with Inarasarah that it
shouldn't get in the way of that? Yes. It shouldn't matter. But it does, because most people are so rooted in biological essentialism. So it goes.
I wonder, though, if the issue of "narrative" is that it's so wrapped up in the ritual of transition itself -- we have to tell all kinds of people a trans narrative to get the treatments we need to live our lives correctly. And transition itself typically takes several years. We spend a lot of time thinking about it, planning it, dealing with emotional fallout, what have you. It kind of reminds me of college, how insular it can be. Letting go of the narrative is very much like letting go of college upon graduation.
I haven't had issues with loneliness. I make friends pretty easily, and I know how to develop a relationship over time with people whose company I truly enjoy. Or a lover, for that matter. I've just had to get out in the world, be gregarious, be myself. It's kind of like moving to a new country -- it can be lonely at first, yes, but after a few months that just wasn't the case anymore.
QuoteU really would have to cut off people and friends from your life bec they'll talk with or without ill motives, intentional or accidental....
In this respect I was really lucky. I did not have a particularly large set of friends outside of church, and none of them were all that interested in my transitioning. So these were people I was going to lose anyways.
But where I really got lucky was with my parents and sister, all of whom lived in a different city than me. By the time transition had come to a close, and I was preparing to practice non-disclosure, I made it very clear what the protocol was going to be if they wanted to keep me in their lives. And to their unending credit, they complied. To the point where I was able to have a lover meet them without incident. More importantly, it still makes for very smooth waters when I come home to visit; even in our day-to-day conversations, narrative non-disclosure is still the rule.
This is not a typical experience.
Even if I had lost everyone, though, there's no reason to be paranoid in relationships, intimate or otherwise. Yeah, at first it's normal to be paranoid, but after a year or two I got quite used to it.
A year or two.
Yeah, this still takes time.
Quote from: Wild Flower on March 25, 2017, 10:43:17 AM
I never understood why cis-gender women don't try to look their best. Even as a guy, I try to look attractive, I used to stop traffic just with my looks alone (not lying; like when I wear a white shirts, and try to go across the street and I'm like a 3-minute distance, cars would literally stop when most of the time they will speed past me), I had people coming up to me in the malls just to talk to me. I saw the "gaze" in their eyes. It was thrilling.
The cons are usually people think they have ownership of you, like too many guys put their hands on me... when it's not needed. I had guys touching my face, my shoulders all the time. One straight guy even touched my butt while drunk, and another guy said I smell like a woman (I was wearing a lotion with pheromones that day).
That's not happening much right now (actually I been getting hit on by straight women lately; not sure that's a good thing), but that's because I don't have my beauty regime at high maintenance at the moment. Need to lose 20 lbs too.
You've given at least one good reason in your second paragraph as to why
some "cis women don't try to look their best".
As to other reasons, there must be thousands. People on the school run or their way to work or trying to get round the supermarket don't generally want to have their egos massaged by traffic screeching to a halt.
Quote from: Wild Flower on March 25, 2017, 10:50:09 AM
Never thought it like that, but it's true, at least for me. I can read people so fast, and it takes weeks if not months for others. People read the obvious, but I read the subtle hidden psychologies of people. I can pick up bisexuality in people so fast too. If a woman finds me as a guy attractive, she's slightly lesbian... because I am not the average man at all.
Or maybe she just knows her own sexual preferences better than a stranger who feels they have a talent for sizing up people's hidden psychological motives.
Quote from: TinaVane on March 25, 2017, 12:34:13 AM
So I now and "behave " like a woman ? Honey women act different ways some of trans sound like misogynistic patriarchy types ....
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I hear that.
There's all sorts of stuff wrapped up in this topic about supermodels and Disney princesses. At least the first type is real.
Ultimately most people just want to get on with their own lives without a song and dance. And especially without other people making one about you.
I say do whatever is comfortable. If that means female or male and glamorous all the time, great. Some of the time, great. Never, great.
Changing from one sex to the other and any of the above? Great. Not changing and any of the above? Fab. Can't be bothered as a cis woman to dress in a way that stops traffic? Enjoy your day. Can't be bothered as a cis man to comply with gender stereotypes either? Fine. Don't want to hit the breaks of your car and have a right old leer when a done up woman tries to cross the road? Excellent - and all the better for you, her, and whoever is unfortunate enough to be driving directly behind your sleazier peers.
Just do whatever you need to do to get through your own life. I thought that was what this was all about anyway.
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 07:32:40 AM
Also if one has truly achieved stealth, it shouldn't be that easily weakened by their attire,makeup,hair choices.
In general I agree... I have always said that if you have to dress a certain way, or wear your hair a certain way or do makeup a certain way (or at all) to pass ... you don't pass well enough for stealth , period, full stop.
I have a body that means despite having full boney FFS (never mind BA and SRS) some will always read me no matter how I dress or act... That has been my experience in the 20 years since I transitioned (well actually it will be 20 years this August)...
There was a time I would not have qualified that with "in general"... but now thinking back by that standard some GGs I've seen don't pass as GGs...
One incident stands out in my memory.... A number of years back I went to the MWWF and at a workshop there i head a butch lesbian talk about her experiences... She was somewhat stocky but not tall, but also not feminine...
She was not on testosterone, was not an FTM and inaction to being born female, completely IDed as female... The obvious pain in her voice in he stories about being "read" as male and how she was treated because of it is something I will not forget...
I could relate to this feelings ... though ironically she was very anti T* because many who knew her kept pressing her to go the FTM route... that seemed to more socially ... but was definitely not who she was...
So in reality hair and dressing and manner do matter to a degree...
That said SOME of us who made the change too late in life simple has too many physical tells for the T* aware world. The downside of that is that a completely normal woman's life is not really possible... The upside is that in many places there is now enough acceptance that being somewhat readable does not mean one does has to be a social outcast, a hermit, unemployable professionally, etc, etc as was case earlier in my lifetime.
In terms of actual stealth, besides the physical and behavior things needed, these days electronic records , social media and the net in general do make it much harder...
Because of the information age, if one does not transition very young (High school or before), I don't know if true stealth is really achievable anymore.
If one can pass VERY well and be willing to burn ALL bridges and live off the grid for awhile, something close to true stealth may be possible for some who make the change as adults... I don't know.
I think the best one can do is simply not talk about it, and figure out what one wants to say if anyone is rude as to ask if they had changed sex.
I can tell from people's reactions when I get read... it's not that often but it it happens, but in the last 20 years I have only been asked directly about it twice by extremely rude men.
In my case though, even if I passed 100%, besides staying married from before and staying in the same profession and ams town, I have too much of an electronic foot print for stealth...
All and all, even though I wanted a "normal" life very much originally (a big reason I did not transition younger) , I am grateful that stealth is not necessary for survival these days.
- karen
Only way you can live in true stealth is if you move in a rural non tech / internet savvy place. Amanda Lear lived that stealth existence til one could easily do a background check on her in the new millennium...
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Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 04:41:05 PM
I have heard about cis women getting clocked but I have a hard time believing it given I have an extremely strong transdar(which I hate about myself). I think women with so many masculine features that one would question their gender is extremely rare(probably 0.1 %). Also for that small precentage, generally they would only be mistaken for being trans in static pics. In real life despite of their masculinity, you would instantly know they are female once you talk to them.
I suspect it's more than 0.1%. What one sees depends very much on one's social, professional and economic status.
As I said in another post, used to be a place where more than few such gathered that would not be instantly genders female in such situations... Experiencing that gives one a bit of a different perspective.
- karen
Hmm, the more things change; the more they are exactly the same. But, there might be some 30-year-old woman (trans woman) out there that is reading this and is on the fence about transitioning. Now, after the you have to be on HRT before puberty or 22, they don't transtion and they kill themselves or they die 40 years from now having never been happy and wondering in their last thought, "What if?"
I used to be that 30-year-old woman. Deeply unhappy. A heroin addict. Lonely. And scared. So, I said "eff it." I started taking hormones and within, IDK, 30 to 60 days I lost every friend I ever had. I didn't tell them I was transitioing, but HRT worked like some voodoo magick for me. I can't tell anyone else's story, nor is it my right. But I can tell mine. And this is for you: the lurker, the questioner, the what if girl.
I'm four years in on HRT, to the month. By the end of year one, my then new friend and now boyfriend and future husband (fingers crossed) made love to me, rough, for the first time. From then one, we have sex on the reg. I am having surgery in a couple months; just waiting for my date. He might dump me if I didn't do it, since he does like vagina. But, he knew I was determined to do it, since you could offer me $10 billion to not have surgery and I would turn it down.
That's the end of the story and the beginning of a new one, which is going to be even better.
But, I pass. I pass all day. I pass everyday. I could wear a suit and no one would beleive I am a man, well I'm not, so why would they? My ID hasn't changed, so I guess it depends on your definition of "deep" stealth. They will be changed by October. I don't wanna mess with my insurance. It's paying for it.
No one has ever asked me on the street if I'm trans. Trans women don't think I'm trans. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me. Ok, sounds great. I also haven't had surgery or practiced my voice; I'm one lazy girl, as my BF tells me. But I do love too shop. Call it stereotypical. I spent half my life dreaming of being in a mall. Literally. I always dreamt I was in a mall, but I could never shop. Now, I shop all the time. But, i love fashion and beauty. Pe-transtion I was a fashion and beauty editor at a magazine. And maternity editor. It was a very manly job telling women's stories and playing with makeup so I could write about it. That money was supposed to be for SRS, but I couldn't pull the trigger, so I stuck it in my arm.
To start with, I have no adam's apple, none. Smoother than smooth. My hairline is kinda erratic and not high, like a woman's (I also have a widow's peak). I look like my sister's twin and was asked all the time if I was a "man." I'm also 5'5. When I started, my hair was in a fauxhawk; don't judge it was bada$$. So, one day, I won't lie I took a bunch of adderral and somehow ended up on the Before and After site. I was like hormones can do that. I ordered them (bad decision) online about five seconds after I heard you could. You have to understand I was battling a heroin addiction, as in past tense, and I was 30. Gay men wouldn't date me for being too femme, and same goes for staright women. I dated one woman who dumped me, or broke off the engagement, since I can't have sex much. Hence the heroin.
So I wouldn't have transtioned if I thought I wouldn't be able to pass at least some of the time. The whole trans pride movement wasnt big four, five years ago. Just wasn't.
I feel like this is TLDR, so I'll get to the point. In 2015, I went to rehab. In detox, they put me in my own room. In Rehab, they put me in an all women's facility. So, there was 25 women, all day, every day, looking at me. Once, someone mentioned to another girl that I prolly had massive amounts of surgery and did soemthing to my voice. How I would afford this being the brokest girl there, I don't know. Anyway, this also happened the same night I dead named myself (called myself by my very male name) in group. I was like I'm done. Put a fork in me. So, it was my roomate who told me this discussion about me happened. And all the girls told the other girl that there is no way in hell I was born a man. No way. Not with that body. She's to tiny. Her hands, Her feet (size seven in women's), her, well, evrything. My voice pitch registers at 207 in pitch on average when talking regularly. I could make it higher but why would I do that? I can't pass as myself on the phone. It's really annoying. My BF has to pass as me. It's actually kinda funny.
Anyway, I started crying and my one friend asked why the next day. She was like, yeah, I was there and, girl, those two are just straight up jealous. No one thinks you are trans, so don't worry. You're beautiful. It was never brought up again. So watch deanaming yourself. The main reason they thought I was trans: I have slightly athletic legs and shoulders. My shoulders are also 13" wide from bone to bone. That's narrow. I'm also a 32DD-27-35. But, I wish my butt was bigger. Oh well. I also have some pockmarks. Yuck. I has six sessions of laser a year ago. I still have some greys, about fifty, but I just pluck them, since it lasts for a month. Once I pluck, I can go one week without shaving. If I don't pluck, it goes down to three days. But I would still pass. I do it for me. The same reason I wear makeup. The same reason I'm having GCS. The same reason I love shopping. Because trying on really expensive dresses is awesome. I might go wedding dress shopping, but I have no friends, just my BF. But, that will change soon. Some personal stuff.
Also, people at that rehab, in Philly, hated transgender women. HATED. Including my roomate who cried when I left. And when we did giggles and bricks, every woman said something totally thought out and nice to me. It was AMAZING!! I mean I felt like I was queen.
So yeah, I'm cute. Adorable. But I'm not gorgeous. I'm not average or invisible. There is a bad side to passing. Some guy grabbed my vagina the other day. Yeah, I wont have SRS for like two months--by July, latest--but I don't have testes and my thing is like...its small. I'll be happier when it's filled with my BF's...yeah lol I became more femme throughout the years by virtue of everyone treating me like a woman and every guy saying hi to me if I make eye contact. But, I could leave the house looking like hungover garbage and I would still pass. I call that New Year's Eve, the same night my BF's Bestfriend's GF wanted to beat me up for smoking a pipe with him. I mean we're in Scranton, it's 10 degrees, what are we supposed to do. She was all like "You're in the car, with HER? Nothing is going on? Really with little miss perfect and pretty over here." I was bout to say "You think I'm pretty that's so sweet." But I din't want to get beat up. She was like 5'7. I'm actually 5'4.75 inches and 125 lbs. I'm really tiny. If Put up a picture you might think I'm being a little hyperbolic, but my camera has a 2 MP thingy, so I'm not photogenic.
But, I'm her to say: it is possible. It's possible. And if all the people on here who say it isn't and are such the authority on all thing's passing; I say I did it. And I'm not done. I'm going to have baby too. Not myself. Obviously. So, if you're thinking of taking hormones, I had a dream, literally, that I was in the mall in the mountains and I was with these two women, who were like sisters. We were shopping. And I had a vagina. I could feel it. Guess what? MY BF lives in the mountains (he is coming back to Philly tomorrow), and he has two sisters. In two months, I'll have a vagina. His family loves me. I got him clean, kinda. I got me clean. And my life rocks. I shop for dresses. Noone has called me "sir" in like four years. I can't even remember.
So it's possible. And dreams do come true. I'm proof, cause mine did, almost literally. Four years ago I was ready to die at 30; and now I can't wait to live the rest of my life as a woman, as me. It's not impossible, you don't have to be 12, or 20. I have condtion and my T levels were 134 when i started, but still. I could be YOU. I didn't think I could be either. But me and my awesome hair and boobs and clothes and hot a$$ BF (who used to play BB ball in college and whose thing tastes like YUM!) says wrong. Miracles do happen. Because I am one!
Bam!
(I hope I didn't offend anyone; just wanted to inject some hope into this thread.) I couldn't make this up. I"m still stunned. With a big smile on my pretty face!
Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 24, 2017, 11:18:13 PM
I wouldn't limit myself to a future job -- my goal was to never have a conversation with anyone not already in the know about these issues. (Well, with the exception the occasional doctor.)
Sorry, got a bit distracted writing that previous post.
Yes, I've achieved that in long-term relationships -- professional, personal, and intimate. It doesn't seem any different for me today personally than it did twenty years ago.
Most of us are not going to achieve physical "perfection" -- but we can be solidly in the right range. There's a hell of a lot we can do to get there. (The importance of voice is still deeply underrated.) And once we've done what we can do, it's just a matter of getting out there and living the life.
Socialization can take time. Some of it is predicated on passing. Absorb like a sponge.
So many get hung up on narrative, though. So much depends upon what your personal truth is. If your personal truth is that you're trans, a life of non-disclosure isn't going to be very satisfying in the long run. Sorry, but being trans kind of depends on maintaining that narrative, either through physical gender variance or through storytelling. On the other hand, if your personal truth is that you're on the binary, then non-disclosure makes a whole lot more sense, but then there's a lot more to... account for. We have to go back and rummage around in all our memories, rebuilding them to reflect the truth of being on the correct side of the binary, and how that played into all our relationships and all our choices throughout our lives. To do so with integrity can be challenging.
Not that any of those stories are stories that will be told. That's not the point. The point is simply to get everything in your life to cohere, narratively speaking. That's all. It's a synthesis, an integration.
And so we take that eidos and hold it close as we step out into the world. It's amazing how far we can go with a modicum of confidence...
Thanks Sophia for your perspective. You are such a role model to me(not just because of your attitude towards stealth). Thanks again for your insight, it highly appreciated. I do struggle with not disclosing about trans status with people I develop deep connection with( thinking I am being dishonest). But at the same time, I am getting more and more comfortable with not disclosing as I am progressing further and further in this journey as that makes more sense to what I truly identify as..i.e female.
Quote from: Miss Lux on March 25, 2017, 01:49:45 AM
I am very passable and have been living stealth for a very long time.... It can be a very lonely life... Hard to develop real new friendships...You'll be always hiding a part of u....And I agree that no matter how passable u r, someone sowhere can/ will clock u or betray u...U can still try to look pretty and dress well/ not average and not be clocked but the sexier, the sluttier or the more overdone ur make up etc d more likelihood that you'll get clocked.... Relationship wise you'll be paranoid... I try to go for d sweet ethereal girl next door aura look and I can say I think I am successful in living stealth but again it is a very lonely life...
Just curious, why has it been so lonely for you. Do u struggle making real connections due to not disclosing about your past. Now after years of stealth, do you still identify as a transwoman or just female. I remember you being from the LA area. So many transgirls there, did you not have luck finding some like urself? I have often thought about moving there since I feel very lonely(not because I am trans) in Denver but every time I come there, I meet so many cool people that I connect with them on so many level.
Quote from: pretty pauline on March 25, 2017, 09:03:10 AM
I have often wondered is there many girls that live completely stealth without telling their long term partners, love to know how they deal with that, I would find that difficult, I live stealth now as a married woman but my husband does know, I told him before we got married, I pass perfectly, I don't stand out, at the shopping mall doing my grocery shopping nobody gives me a second glance, just another boring housewife.
I had read about some on Susan's, but imagine it would be tough. Did you tell ur husband after a while into dating?
Quote from: Angela Drakken on March 25, 2017, 09:20:25 AM
Clocking literally makes no sense to me.
When someones changed their gender marker on all their pieces of ID and mostly transitioned, what honestly do they have to fear from some random calling them out incorrectly? And I say incorrectly because biologically, legally, and visually, they ARE the gender they are presenting, who cares if they're not representing someone else's ideal for what they should be?
If someone raises a stink one day because I'm in the ladies room, and I'm confronted about what I'm doing in there my response is going to be; 'Changing my pad, *censored* off, I'm not in the mood!'
Well, I guess some of us are more fearless than others when it comes to people calling them out. For me, I have always been a very gentle, non confrontational, sensitive person and HRT has added a bit of anxiety into that. I feel I don't have any emotional/mental strength to put up with disrespectful bigoted people and I would rather not give them any opportunity to have a beef with me. I just want to have a pleasant experience as much as possible.
Quote from: Wild Flower on March 25, 2017, 10:43:17 AM
I never understood why cis-gender women don't try to look their best.
Yepp, I prefer cis women of 1950/60s more than today's for that reason. But, woman in SoCal are generally good with keeping up and looking their best. I wish the whole country was like socal, women here in Denver
<seem like> either they came back from a long hike or they are about to go on one. Lol
Moderator edit: To smooth out a potentially insulting phrase.
Quote from: Karen_A on March 25, 2017, 06:34:17 PM
I suspect it's more than 0.1%. What one sees depends very much on one's social, professional and economic status.
As I said in another post, used to be a place where more than few such gathered that would not be instantly genders female in such situations... Experiencing that gives one a bit of a different perspective.
- karen
Karen,
I agree about the some from the lesbian crowd getting misgendered. Maybe because I identify as straight, I always unintentionally only focus on straight cis gendered woman.
Quote from: Spunky Brewster on March 26, 2017, 02:45:52 AM
I'm four years in on HRT, to the month. By the end of year one, my then new friend and now boyfriend and future husband (fingers crossed) made love to me, rough, for the first time. From then one, we have sex on the reg. I am having surgery in a couple months; just waiting for my date. He might dump me if I didn't do it, since he does like vagina. But, he knew I was determined to do it, since you could offer me $10 billion to not have surgery and I would turn it down.
That's the end of the story and the beginning of a new one, which is going to be even better.
But, I pass. I pass all day. I pass everyday. I could wear a suit and no one would beleive I am a man, well I'm not, so why would they? My ID hasn't changed, so I guess it depends on your definition of "deep" stealth. They will be changed by October. I don't wanna mess with my insurance. It's paying for it.
No one has ever asked me on the street if I'm trans. Trans women don't think I'm trans. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me. Ok, sounds great. I also haven't had surgery or practiced my voice; I'm one lazy girl, as my BF tells me. But I do love too shop. Call it stereotypical. I spent half my life dreaming of being in a mall. Literally. I always dreamt I was in a mall, but I could never shop. Now, I shop all the time. But, i love fashion and beauty. Pe-transtion I was a fashion and beauty editor at a magazine. And maternity editor. It was a very manly job telling women's stories and playing with makeup so I could write about it. That money was supposed to be for SRS, but I couldn't pull the trigger, so I stuck it in my arm.
To start with, I have no adam's apple, none. Smoother than smooth. My hairline is kinda erratic and not high, like a woman's (I also have a widow's peak). I look like my sister's twin and was asked all the time if I was a "man." I'm also 5'5. When I started, my hair was in a fauxhawk; don't judge it was bada$$. So, one day, I won't lie I took a bunch of adderral and somehow ended up on the Before and After site. I was like hormones can do that. I ordered them (bad decision) online about five seconds after I heard you could. You have to understand I was battling a heroin addiction, as in past tense, and I was 30. Gay men wouldn't date me for being too femme, and same goes for staright women. I dated one woman who dumped me, or broke off the engagement, since I can't have sex much. Hence the heroin.
So I wouldn't have transtioned if I thought I wouldn't be able to pass at least some of the time. The whole trans pride movement wasnt big four, five years ago. Just wasn't.
I feel like this is TLDR, so I'll get to the point. In 2015, I went to rehab. In detox, they put me in my own room. In Rehab, they put me in an all women's facility. So, there was 25 women, all day, every day, looking at me. Once, someone mentioned to another girl that I prolly had massive amounts of surgery and did soemthing to my voice. How I would afford this being the brokest girl there, I don't know. Anyway, this also happened the same night I dead named myself (called myself by my very male name) in group. I was like I'm done. Put a fork in me. So, it was my roomate who told me this discussion about me happened. And all the girls told the other girl that there is no way in hell I was born a man. No way. Not with that body. She's to tiny. Her hands, Her feet (size seven in women's), her, well, evrything. My voice pitch registers at 207 in pitch on average when talking regularly. I could make it higher but why would I do that? I can't pass as myself on the phone. It's really annoying. My BF has to pass as me. It's actually kinda funny.
Anyway, I started crying and my one friend asked why the next day. She was like, yeah, I was there and, girl, those two are just straight up jealous. No one thinks you are trans, so don't worry. You're beautiful. It was never brought up again. So watch deanaming yourself. The main reason they thought I was trans: I have slightly athletic legs and shoulders. My shoulders are also 13" wide from bone to bone. That's narrow. I'm also a 32DD-27-35. But, I wish my butt was bigger. Oh well. I also have some pockmarks. Yuck. I has six sessions of laser a year ago. I still have some greys, about fifty, but I just pluck them, since it lasts for a month. Once I pluck, I can go one week without shaving. If I don't pluck, it goes down to three days. But I would still pass. I do it for me. The same reason I wear makeup. The same reason I'm having GCS. The same reason I love shopping. Because trying on really expensive dresses is awesome. I might go wedding dress shopping, but I have no friends, just my BF. But, that will change soon. Some personal stuff.
Also, people at that rehab, in Philly, hated transgender women. HATED. Including my roomate who cried when I left. And when we did giggles and bricks, every woman said something totally thought out and nice to me. It was AMAZING!! I mean I felt like I was queen.
So yeah, I'm cute. Adorable. But I'm not gorgeous. I'm not average or invisible. There is a bad side to passing. Some guy grabbed my vagina the other day. Yeah, I wont have SRS for like two months--by July, latest--but I don't have testes and my thing is like...its small. I'll be happier when it's filled with my BF's...yeah lol I became more femme throughout the years by virtue of everyone treating me like a woman and every guy saying hi to me if I make eye contact. But, I could leave the house looking like hungover garbage and I would still pass. I call that New Year's Eve, the same night my BF's Bestfriend's GF wanted to beat me up for smoking a pipe with him. I mean we're in Scranton, it's 10 degrees, what are we supposed to do. She was all like "You're in the car, with HER? Nothing is going on? Really with little miss perfect and pretty over here." I was bout to say "You think I'm pretty that's so sweet." But I din't want to get beat up. She was like 5'7. I'm actually 5'4.75 inches and 125 lbs. I'm really tiny. If Put up a picture you might think I'm being a little hyperbolic, but my camera has a 2 MP thingy, so I'm not photogenic.
But, I'm her to say: it is possible. It's possible. And if all the people on here who say it isn't and are such the authority on all thing's passing; I say I did it. And I'm not done. I'm going to have baby too. Not myself. Obviously. So, if you're thinking of taking hormones, I had a dream, literally, that I was in the mall in the mountains and I was with these two women, who were like sisters. We were shopping. And I had a vagina. I could feel it. Guess what? MY BF lives in the mountains (he is coming back to Philly tomorrow), and he has two sisters. In two months, I'll have a vagina. His family loves me. I got him clean, kinda. I got me clean. And my life rocks. I shop for dresses. Noone has called me "sir" in like four years. I can't even remember.
So it's possible. And dreams do come true. I'm proof, cause mine did, almost literally. Four years ago I was ready to die at 30; and now I can't wait to live the rest of my life as a woman, as me. It's not impossible, you don't have to be 12, or 20. I have condtion and my T levels were 134 when i started, but still. I could be YOU. I didn't think I could be either. But me and my awesome hair and boobs and clothes and hot a$$ BF (who used to play BB ball in college and whose thing tastes like YUM!) says wrong. Miracles do happen. Because I am one!
Bam!
(I hope I didn't offend anyone; just wanted to inject some hope into this thread.) I couldn't make this up. I"m still stunned. With a big smile on my pretty face!
Hi Spunky Brester,
I can relate with you in some ways. I have been on HRT for over two years now. Started in my mid twenties. I started being gendered as female at 3 months while still presenting as a gay male. I am cute, adorable and can be gorgeous with makeup and hair. Now I am a bit tall at 5"9 .5 but also have 36.5-23.5-39.5 figure at 134lbs with relatively long legs, much higher waist and shorter torso. My hands are very feminine, shoulders are feminine at 14 inches, underbust is 27. Now my feet are women's size 10(hopefully feet feminization surgery will bring them to 9 if not 8 .
I am obsessed with perfection and looking as good as possible, but dislike looking fake/cheap/plastic. Due to this, so far I have had:
1. BA with 400cc implants that made them go from B to a DD cup.
2. FFS(forehead, rhinoplasty,genioplasty)
3. BBL to make my butt/hips go from 36ish to 39.5.
My face looks feminine naturally even without makeup and hair pulled back. I was passing really well before all the surgeries, but I got them because of my own personal aesthetic and did want to stand out(not in a trans way) and look different than the average girl and well maybe become something more than just a average girl. But on the downside, I do now get a lot of attention(specially here in Denver where most girls are very granola/hippie type) that sometimes makes me very anxious. Good thing is my body is almost where I wanted it to be, more confidence, and I don't really care about guys because feel like they are dime a dozen.
Just like u and some others, I feel stealth is possible for me(unless I ruin it by getting more surgeries (unfortunately Pixie fox and Valeria lukyanova is who I look upto, though wouldn't want to look like that, but I do admire them a lot). But also feel, like my face is not as hyper feminine as someone like Jenna talackova and my waist contour as sharp as Valeria, may take chance at getting to that level.(maybe not I am not sure)
So despite all this, why did I post regarding this issue ?
1. I am a bit depressed recovering from my surgery that requires not sitting/sleeping on my back for 6 weeks thus also not going out, driving.
2. Unfortunately I have low self confidence(my mind is extremely self critical, always striving for perfection, but also optimistic ). Going out and people/strangers in general help me a lot with this through the attention/reaction they give me and making me feel like a female while also telling that I am a good looking one. But when i don't go out for a while, my mind takes over and brings out all the insecurities from being trans, like unless I have a Bambi face I am not going to have complete stealth.
3. While I was a bit insecure from not going out for weeks, I saw this YouTube video where the guy easily picked out women shown below as trans. Specially number 10 was shocking. In my mind, definition of stealth is when one has lived as female for a long time without no one, not even a single person suspecting or picking u out as trans that easily. And based on the video, it seemed like a really tough goal to acheive in general for the trans community(that desires stealth).
<Images Removed>I am very happy for you and that your all your dreams are about to come true. Also think, in general 1) stealth/ 100% passing shouldn't affect ones decision to transition, since transitioning is not an option but our fate 2) one should be very realistic about their stealth potential as it's not that easy to obtain if one doesn't transition early or has right genetics and/or has really good amount to money to spend on surgeries with the right surgeon(as looking fake hinders stealth).
Hope I didn't offend anyone, or come across as arrogant by posting my body stats. I just wanted people to know where I stand in my transition while asking the stealth question.
Moderator Edit: Images remove due to fair use. Origin not cited
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 26, 2017, 04:56:22 AM
Well, I guess some of us are more fearless than others when it comes to people calling them out. For me, I have always been a very gentle, non confrontational, sensitive person and HRT has added a bit of anxiety into that. I feel I don't have any emotional/mental strength to put up with disrespectful bigoted people and I would rather not give them any opportunity to have a beef with me. I just want to have a pleasant experience as much as possible.
See, to me, that's just it. Acceptance and awareness is one thing, we work up so much nerve in the first place to be out and be ourselves, living in 'stealth' to me seems almost like throwing myself back into a closet I worked so hard to get out of, and a conflict of logic. I personally don't need validation from every stranger I meet, I only need to be treated respectfully. When I'm not? Like you I am normally a sensitive and quiet, shy person, irl, but I can go full queen (censored) mode at the drop of a hat when I need to. lol
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 26, 2017, 04:30:05 AMI do struggle with not disclosing about trans status with people I develop deep connection with (thinking I am being dishonest). But at the same time, I am getting more and more comfortable with not disclosing as I am progressing further and further in this journey as that makes more sense to what I truly identify as..i.e female.
It got a lot easier for me as time went by. Not that I ever felt dishonest (I've always been clear about my truth), but early on I was always just kind of expecting the shoe to drop.
It never dropped. In part because I never dropped it. It's like... it's like a hot potato, this narrative. Disclosure is like passing someone a hot potato. Without warning. It generally isn't done to relieve someone else, but to relieve ourselves. In other words, there's something every bit as selfish about disclosure or non-disclosure.
We get so used to telling a story of change, as opposed to a story of constancy, a story of essence. People don't really believe in change. They know it happens, but change is something that tends to be avoided as much as possible, with some changes accepted to avoid other changes entirely. So play to this! Make your narrative one about the same woman (the big change was that you used to be a little girl) over and over again making her choices to get through the world.
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 26, 2017, 07:20:10 AM2. Unfortunately I have low self confidence(my mind is extremely self critical, always striving for perfection, but also optimistic ). Going out and people/strangers in general help me a lot with this through the attention/reaction they give me and making me feel like a female while also telling that I am a good looking one. But when i don't go out for a while, my mind takes over and brings out all the insecurities from being trans, like unless I have a Bambi face I am not going to have complete stealth.
Confidence is pretty crucial to a life of practicing non-disclosure.
(I highly recommend the semantics of "practicing non-disclosure" to "stealth" in this respect, actually. The latter implies that you're hiding something, that you're a spy, that you don't
really belong. "Practicing non-disclosure," on the other hand, is simply a statement of praxis, what you are actively
doing, and it doesn't actually depend on what other people think at all. Plus, it's kind of ironic. Anyways, I know "stealth" is the accepted nomenclature in our community, but I still greatly disagree with using the term.)
It's not the Bambi face that saves the day, by the way. In the end, it's an impeccable
voice that saves the day. Voice is something that can reverse a clocking, first off, leaving people stumbling for an apology (which is rather telling of how cis people actually consider misgendering). Second, and more important, it's through our voices that we socialize, tell stories and narratives, and develop long-term relationships.
I was in line to vote last November, and it took a couple hours, which gave me time to look at people, as I'm wont to do. Out of maybe 200 women, one had an unusual face so to speak, and she was kind of tall, maybe 5'8" or 5'9", but her voice was standard-issue female, and her stories were of her husband and kids. Another woman was 6'4" or 6'5", very heavy set, but all the proportions were right and again the voice was a woman's voice. On the other hand, what really made me do a double-take was a very short woman with a big belly and a very low and deep voice; I don't think a single word eclipsed 160Hz. I looked and looked at her again upon hearing this voice, but there were nothing else to see but another woman. Still, she's the one who really made me pause.
The face of Bambi can crumble if the voice of Lurch comes out of her mouth.
Quote3. While I was a bit insecure from not going out for weeks, I saw this YouTube video where the guy easily picked out women shown below as trans. Specially number 10 was shocking. In my mind, definition of stealth is when one has lived as female for a long time without no one, not even a single person suspecting or picking u out as trans that easily.
Okay.
Why are these women being picked out by some apparently "lucky" random dude engaged in ->-bleeped-<--spotting? Better to ask, how did their pictures and likenesses end up getting put into this arrangement? This is a
narrative problem, not a physical one.
In the real world, people see the whole person in action, and it's not a game of whack-a-mole. They
hear someone speaking, and it changes everything. We have
time to get know people. Conversations happen. Again and again.
This is what living a woman's life is really like, not posing on the internet for others to judge.
Quote from: Angela Drakken on March 26, 2017, 08:09:04 AMSee, to me, that's just it. Acceptance and awareness is one thing, we work up so much nerve in the first place to be out and be ourselves, living in 'stealth' to me seems almost like throwing myself back into a closet I worked so hard to get out of, and a conflict of logic.
The "closet" metaphor comes to us from the gay and lesbian community. It's about pretending to be straight when you're really not. The personal truth revealed is one of homosexuality.
We grew up pretending to be one gender when we're really the other. We go through the same ritual of "coming out" when we transition -- but is the personal truth one of being "trans" or being the other gender? There's no right or wrong answer to this, but it's a very important answer to get right, because IMO happiness depends on it.
For me, with a personal truth of being female, the narrative of being trans is just another closet.
QuoteI personally don't need validation from every stranger I meet, I only need to be treated respectfully. When I'm not? Like you I am normally a sensitive and quiet, shy person, irl, but I can go full queen (censored) mode at the drop of a hat when I need to. lol
Respect is good.
It is not mutually exclusive of being gendered correctly all the time.
It's not the strangers that matter. For me, it's long-term relationships.
Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 26, 2017, 08:32:19 AM
For me, with a personal truth of being female, the narrative of being trans is just another closet.
...
It's not the strangers that matter. For me, it's long-term relationships.
Do you own a hammer, cause you just hit the nail on the head. It is LTRs that matter. And, for me, I transitioned to be female, not to fly the trans flag. If that is what someone wants to do, it is a very lofty goal that I respect and admire, but some people, like me, just don't have it in them. I won't play The "who suffered more" olympics, cause everyone on this board knows suffering, but I just want to be happy. With my BF, he knows everything, but I just got lucky and feel like I hit some kind of fate jackpot. Money is money. But love...that's priceless.
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 26, 2017, 07:20:10 AM
While I was a bit insecure from not going out for weeks, I saw this YouTube video where the guy easily picked out women shown below as trans. Specially number 10 was shocking. In my mind, definition of stealth is when one has lived as female for a long time without no one, not even a single person suspecting or picking u out as trans that easily. And based on the video, it seemed like a really tough goal to acheive in general for the trans community(that desires stealth).
<images removed>
I am very happy for you and that your all your dreams are about to come true. Also think, in general 1) stealth/ 100% passing shouldn't affect ones decision to transition, since transitioning is not an option but our fate 2) one should be very realistic about their stealth potential as it's not that easy to obtain if one doesn't transition early or has right genetics and/or has really good amount to money to spend on surgeries with the right surgeon(as looking fake hinders stealth).
Hope I didn't offend anyone, or come across as arrogant by posting my body stats. I just wanted people to know where I stand in my transition while asking the stealth question.
Yeah, I mean I totally agree that total stealth is very, very hard. I don't know if I really achieved it, because once you get to a certain point, you're just kind of accepted as a woman, if you're lucky. That guy my be some kind of savant of trans peeps. He has some kind of special transdar (they sell it at Wal-Mart!), but he also could have got lucky. IRL, he prolly wouldn't have picked out any of them. He had a 50 percent chance of getting each one right and I'm sure he thinks he is special and picks out cis women all the time.
If people aren't completely sure, they aren't going to say anything. For me, the only time anyone questioned me was after I basically outted myself. I was like "I am such an idiot. I talk in group and ruin my life." I woulda left if it didn't stop, and now I wouldn't be here, I'd be in heroin hell. But, then even after outting myself, people would not, could not believe that I was born with that useless appendage. No way. That gave me more confidence than you can imagine. Cause I was like, wow, I can out myself and people will think I got my own name wrong? Who gets their name wrong? But, yeah you sound beautiful and since you're passing as much as you are I would try to put that voice to rest. But, I know that voice and it still speaks to me. It's speaking to me now, saying you are a deluded windbag and everyone knows everywhere.
I hadn't gone out to a bar in ages before last November, but on the way out I get all dressed up and we went clubbing, but before I got some tequila in me, I was nervous as heck. I made my BF take me around cause I didn't have a hat. For some reason, I think my hair totally sucks, cause its only at my shoulders, and if I put the hat on I think I pass better. My BF was like "No one is going to know whatever you do, unless you tell them, but the hat...no." He hates that hat. But, now, I got one of those scrunchi simple bun thingies. It's bascially a mesh bagel that you pull your hair thought. WOW! I should be their spokeswoman cause I love it. I have the perfect bun now and after years of trying, I have finally done something awesome with my hair. Yeah, it's basic. But, basic can be beautiful. I tangent alot sorries...
Moderator edit: Images were removed from the post quoted. I edited the quote to match.
I have one thought on this. If other people don't like it, that's their problem. You have the right to be who you want to be, stealth or not. You be who you want to be, don't be who other people decide you are.
Sent with fondest thoughts
Dena
Everyone gets clocked now . Even cis women. I live stealth.. and I'm not under 5'4 .I'm 5'8 but I'm reaaaaallly curvey. I haven't had any surgeries just the way things ended up . I don't get clocked. But I am looking to do ffs for personal reasons. However even before hormones, 7 years ago.. I was 17 . I was passing sometimes. Height doesn't really have much to do with it. But everyone is trans nowadays . Ive seen a coworker (who doesnt know I'm trans) get clocked and she has 2 kids !! Lol
I'm pretty sure I pass 100% of the time. In any kind of medical or legal situation where I have to put myself (lots of other health issues and recently got my new passport with correct gender marker) every person does a double take.
There is a lot of discussion about passing early on here. I wonder how many had male fail before starting any transition?
For most of my adult life I've had male fail with strangers about 80% of the time. Didn't matter what I wore, if I hadn't shaved, even filling out new patients info with Male being selected- 30% of the time they office staff would change it to Female. Still don't. I didn't understand how I could be in a nice button up shirt, tie, slacks and still get ma'amed. It makes me wonder how much of this is body language. I had to always intentionally lower my voice on the phone, otherwise I would be accused of not being me.
I think what I don't understand is how the facial hair, short male haircut, male clothing etc was completely ignored 80% of the time in public situations. Anyone else experience this pretransition?
I never did understand what it was about me that made people gender me as Female
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Brooke on March 26, 2017, 12:38:52 PM
I'm pretty sure I pass 100% of the time. In any kind of medical or legal situation where I have to put myself (lots of other health issues and recently got my new passport with correct gender marker) every person does a double take.
There is a lot of discussion about passing early on here. I wonder how many had male fail before starting any transition?
For most of my adult life I've had male fail with strangers about 80% of the time. Didn't matter what I wore, if I hadn't shaved, even filling out new patients info with Male being selected- 30% of the time they office staff would change it to Female. Still don't. I didn't understand how I could be in a nice button up shirt, tie, slacks and still get ma'amed. It makes me wonder how much of this is body language. I had to always intentionally lower my voice on the phone, otherwise I would be accused of not being me.
I think what I don't understand is how the facial hair, short male haircut, male clothing etc was completely ignored 80% of the time in public situations. Anyone else experience this pretransition?
I never did understand what it was about me that made people gender me as Female
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, all that.
Flattering for what it confirms on some level. Embarrassing for the fuss it creates when you are compelled to correct it.
As for automatically failing security questions on the phone to discuss your own accounts, that's just plain inconvenient.
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 26, 2017, 05:06:18 AM
Yepp, I prefer cis women of 1950/60s more than today's for that reason. But, woman in SoCal are generally good with keeping up and looking their best. I wish the whole country was like socal, women here in Denver <seem like> either they came back from a long hike or they are about to go on one. Lol
You prefer how women were in the 1950's? Well women didn't. Which is why that's no longer the acceptable standard.
Moderator edit: to adjust an accusatory insulting phrases.
Quote from: alex82 on March 26, 2017, 03:13:34 PM
You prefer how women were in the 1950's? Well women didn't. Which is why that's no longer the acceptable standard.
While I agree no woman should long for the society of the 50'sand early 60's, the unambiguous gender roles/standards (as well as the lack of T* awareness) DID make passing easier, even if it also made life harder in other ways.
I spend a number of years arguing with TERFS before the term was around. They saw our tendency to follow stereotypes as aiding/reinforcing their oppression.
I tried very hard to explain that while transsexualism is not primarily about social roles and clothing, makeup etc, because of our insecurities and desire for acceptance as women that is the only way many know how to try and get that acceptance... Looking for approval as girls do was well as trying to find what wrks for them... AT FIRST... Over time we learn ropes, get more confidence and most get past the excesses and settle in the same broad range of gender expression that most women do.
I tried to explain that the most transsexuals visible to them are either those early on at their most insecure...
I don't think any of them ever believed it... They thought transsexualism was all about attraction to gender role and trappings, that if there were not enforced gender norms that transsexuals would not exist...
I know deeply from my own experience that is simply not the case... But it's hard for them (or most people actually) to really understand.
- Karen
I'm too stealth for this topic, too stealth for this topic, too stealth when I'm disco dancing ;D
Quote from: Karen_A on March 26, 2017, 06:12:35 PM
While I agree no woman should long for the society of the 50'sand early 60's, the unambiguous gender roles/standards (as well as the lack of T* awareness) DID make passing easier, even if it also made life harder in other ways.
I spend a number of years arguing with TERFS before the term was around. They saw our tendency to follow stereotypes as aiding/reinforcing their oppression.
I tried very hard to explain that while transsexualism is not primarily about social roles and clothing, makeup etc, because of our insecurities and desire for acceptance as women that is the only way many know how to try and get that acceptance... Looking for approval as girls do was well as trying to find what wrks for them... AT FIRST... Over time we learn ropes, get more confidence and most get past the excesses and settle in the same broad range of gender expression that most women do.
I tried to explain that the most transsexuals visible to them are either those early on at their most insecure...
I don't think any of them ever believed it... They thought transsexualism was all about attraction to gender role and trappings, that if there were not enforced gender norms that transsexuals would not exist...
I know deeply from my own experience that is simply not the case... But it's hard for them (or most people actually) to really understand.
- Karen
You and me both.
I've had these conversations and debates too.
But what I referred to
<as>not helpful <is> when some transsexuals so easily and openly criticize
<natal>born women for not doing it right, not being pretty enough, not invested enough in appearance, not sexually appealing and available enough, for moving out of the 1950's.
And I don't say that lightly. I think it's really damaging and I can see precisely why it gets people's backs up. People have spent decades fighting for equality, and devoted their lives and careers to challenging these perceptions.
To have someone who wasn't
<natally> born female come along shouting 'I can do it better' - that's offensive.
You find
<much of this on> the Internet .
Some of that stuff that you find around the Internet is damaging trans and handing ammunition to detractors, against those of us who are trying to make a reasonable point about it being an innate feeling, rather than all the bells and whistles.
Moderator edit: Edited to remove trigger inducing phrases and to remove a banned topic
Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 26, 2017, 08:26:27 AM
It got a lot easier for me as time went by. Not that I ever felt dishonest (I've always been clear about my truth), but early on I was always just kind of expecting the shoe to drop.
It never dropped. In part because I never dropped it. It's like... it's like a hot potato, this narrative. Disclosure is like passing someone a hot potato. Without warning. It generally isn't done to relieve someone else, but to relieve ourselves. In other words, there's something every bit as selfish about disclosure or non-disclosure.
We get so used to telling a story of change, as opposed to a story of constancy, a story of essence. People don't really believe in change. They know it happens, but change is something that tends to be avoided as much as possible, with some changes accepted to avoid other changes entirely. So play to this! Make your narrative one about the same woman (the big change was that you used to be a little girl) over and over again making her choices to get through the world.
Confidence is pretty crucial to a life of practicing non-disclosure.
(I highly recommend the semantics of "practicing non-disclosure" to "stealth" in this respect, actually. The latter implies that you're hiding something, that you're a spy, that you don't really belong. "Practicing non-disclosure," on the other hand, is simply a statement of praxis, what you are actively doing, and it doesn't actually depend on what other people think at all. Plus, it's kind of ironic. Anyways, I know "stealth" is the accepted nomenclature in our community, but I still greatly disagree with using the term.)
It's not the Bambi face that saves the day, by the way. In the end, it's an impeccable voice that saves the day. Voice is something that can reverse a clocking, first off, leaving people stumbling for an apology (which is rather telling of how cis people actually consider misgendering). Second, and more important, it's through our voices that we socialize, tell stories and narratives, and develop long-term relationships.
I was in line to vote last November, and it took a couple hours, which gave me time to look at people, as I'm wont to do. Out of maybe 200 women, one had an unusual face so to speak, and she was kind of tall, maybe 5'8" or 5'9", but her voice was standard-issue female, and her stories were of her husband and kids. Another woman was 6'4" or 6'5", very heavy set, but all the proportions were right and again the voice was a woman's voice. On the other hand, what really made me do a double-take was a very short woman with a big belly and a very low and deep voice; I don't think a single word eclipsed 160Hz. I looked and looked at her again upon hearing this voice, but there were nothing else to see but another woman. Still, she's the one who really made me pause.
The face of Bambi can crumble if the voice of Lurch comes out of her mouth.
Okay.
Why are these women being picked out by some apparently "lucky" random dude engaged in ->-bleeped-<--spotting? Better to ask, how did their pictures and likenesses end up getting put into this arrangement? This is a narrative problem, not a physical one.
In the real world, people see the whole person in action, and it's not a game of whack-a-mole. They hear someone speaking, and it changes everything. We have time to get know people. Conversations happen. Again and again.
This is what living a woman's life is really like, not posing on the internet for others to judge.
Yes, I feel the same. It does get better with time. I agree that sometimes disclosure is a selfish act to mostly relieve ones own self especially when one has reached a stage where they are undeniable female both physically, emotionally and spiritually and where the recipient has absolutely no idea about your history. I have been told few times that it was unnecessary and things would have just been better without it. Ultimately for me, I think my self confidence in general and also related to non disclosure would improve tremendously once I am postop. Looking a certain way on the outside and being preop makes me very uncomfortable on many levels.
As far as changing the story to being a little girl as opposed to a little boy, that's something that's happened naturally from hormones. My mind thinks of my old self as some else and has automatically conceived a narrative that only includes a girl from start to finish. And because this has happened naturally without a conscious effort, I don't feel guilt of it.
I can't agree with the voice thing anymore. I have seen this so many times, where tgirls just focus on their face/body and not so much on their voice and overall aura or do it the wrong way where it's not seamless, normal and natural. Kimberly Westbrook(trans YouTuber) is a very good example how voice/overall behavior can overcome height, Browbone and other issues.
Thinking again, maybe the reason behind those girls getting picked out is not really what it seems to be in the video.
Quote from: Spunky Brewster on March 26, 2017, 11:32:05 AM
But, I know that voice and it still speaks to me. It's speaking to me now, saying you are a deluded windbag and everyone knows everywhere.
I hadn't gone out to a bar in ages before last November, but on the way out I get all dressed up and we went clubbing, but before I got some tequila in me, I was nervous as heck. I made my BF take me around cause I didn't have a hat. For some reason, I think my hair totally sucks, cause its only at my shoulders, and if I put the hat on I think I pass better. My BF was like "No one is going to know whatever you do, unless you tell them, but the hat...no." He hates that hat. But, now, I got one of those scrunchi simple bun thingies. It's bascially a mesh bagel that you pull your hair thought. WOW! I should be their spokeswoman cause I love it. I have the perfect bun now and after years of trying, I have finally done something awesome with my hair. Yeah, it's basic. But, basic can be beautiful.
Moderator edit: Images were removed from the post quoted. I edited the quote to match.
Girl,
Hopefully nothing I said made that voice speak like that to you. I am very familiar to that voice as well as it often haunts me too. Hopefully someday it will be gone forever and then we will be liberated.
I love hats too, specially the winter beanies. This is what I have rocking all winter. I have 6 in different colors. Lol
http://imgur.com/XZfRBg7
Quote from: alex82 on March 26, 2017, 07:07:10 PM
You and me both.
I've had these conversations and debates too.
But what I referred to <as>not helpful <is> when some transsexuals so easily and openly criticize <natal>born women for not doing it right, not being pretty enough, not invested enough in appearance, not sexually appealing and available enough, for moving out of the 1950's.
And I don't say that lightly. I think it's really damaging and I can see precisely why it gets people's backs up. People have spent decades fighting for equality, and devoted their lives and careers to challenging these perceptions.
To have someone who wasn't <natally> born female come along shouting 'I can do it better' - that's offensive.
You find<much of this on> the Internet .
Some of that stuff that you find around the Internet is damaging trans and handing ammunition to detractors, against those of us who are trying to make a reasonable point about it being an innate feeling, rather than all the bells and whistles.
Moderator edit: Edited to remove trigger inducing phrases and to remove a banned topic
I apologize for coming across like that. It was meant in a light and humorous way. Also what I was referring to is the 1950/60s look, not about how women were treated in society. I wouldn't want to be a women let anyone a trans one in those times. But what I wish is that 1950/60s hair/makeup attire (see below link) was still considered normal in today's times for ones that want to look like that.
http://m.imgur.com/a/QhB3C
Nevertheless the socal comment was my opinion as a women( nothing to do with being a transsexual one), thats who I relate with and just wish the whole country was like that( more in a light hearted humorous way). Doesn't mean I dislike the hippie/granola/plain type, I just don't relate with them. Also because having lived in Boulder/Denver(and travelled in Midwest), I know how extremely judgmental that type can be towards anyone that is not like them or doesn't share similar views. For some reason, hyper feminity bothers them and they look down upon. I just find the socal stereotype more easy going, fun, lively and interesting. Someone that takes care of them and tries to bring out the best in them both physically and mentally. Now I know this is a generalization, but it's based on my personal experience. There is a place there for everyone, wether u want to look sexy or not, plastic or natural, pretty or not pretty, glamorous or casual.
So yes, I don't dislike them for not not wanting to be sexy/pretty, but can't relate with their dogmatic/small minded discriminatory views on women that are/want to be sexy/hyper feminine. Simple live and let live.
Again I didn't mean it as trans vs cis.
Also not sure, where u are reading about transgirl claiming to be better than cis women and boasting about their model figures/Uber sexiness. Almost any transgender forums I read online, we only talk about how we aspire to be like them. Never have I ever read anything about us being better than them physically, only wishes that our transition takes us in their realm.
Just like cis woman, trans women come in all shapes/sizes, some are frumpy and some well put together. If anything, the transwomen that are able to acheive all that look wise, I feel are more grounded/humble, because it wasn't handed to them with a silver spoon. They worked long and hard for it. For me and my friend, every cosmetic surgery that enhances our physical looks(making us more feminine) also enriches us on the inside. It makes us more compassionate, at peace, emphathetic, forgiving and just a better human overall.
Again, just to summarize I think you misinterpreted my comment as it being cis vs trans when I was expressing my personal preference for one stereotype of woman over the other.
Thanks
Moderator edit: editing due to cleaning up confusing left overs and removing aggressive phrases.
Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 26, 2017, 08:18:25 PM
Yes, I feel the same. It does get better with time. I agree that sometimes disclosure is a selfish act to mostly relieve ones own self especially when one has reached a stage where they are undeniable female both physically, emotionally and spiritually and where the recipient has absolutely no idea about your history.
I have heard that argument from a few people over the years(and they all seem to know each other!)...
It has always struck me to be somewhat self serving when specifically taking about teh case of a life partner.
If you think it would matter to them the partner, beside teh effects on teh TS, keeping that secret from them will ALSO have SOME effect on the relationship dynamic (usually not positive) ...
In such cases if it comes out unexpectedly down the road it could mess up both lives (and it does happen). The feelings of betrayal can run deep...
While the TS might be willing to risk that for themselves, do they really have the right to make decision for their SO?
I fully understand the the strong desire not to tell and the reasons behind it and that for TSed they can be very emotionally powerful...
That is why IMO, in that specific case (a life partner), that reasoning needs to be suspect.
That said, for those that have the option, they have to decide for themselves how to deal with it ... they need to be very honest with themselves and truly consider deeply the potential ramifications and specifics of the situation for BOTH of those involved.
- Karen
Quote from: Karen_A on March 26, 2017, 11:09:13 PM
I have heard that argument from a few people over the years(and they all seem to know each other!)...
It has always struck me to be somewhat self serving when specifically taking about teh case of a life partner.
If you think it would matter to them the partner, beside teh effects on teh TS, keeping that secret from them will ALSO have SOME effect on the relationship dynamic (usually not positive) ...
In such cases if it comes out unexpectedly down the road it could mess up both lives (and it does happen). The feelings of betrayal can run deep...
While the TS might be willing to risk that for themselves, do they really have the right to make decision for their SO?
I fully understand the the strong desire not to tell and the reasons behind it and that for TSed they can be very emotionally powerful...
That is why IMO, in that specific case (a life partner), that reasoning needs to be suspect.
That said, for those that have the option, they have to decide for themselves how to deal with it ... they need to be very honest with themselves and truly consider deeply the potential ramifications and specifics of the situation for BOTH of those involved.
- Karen
Well yeah great minds think alike. Lol just kidding. For some of us, the goal of a gender transition isn't just to transition. Our dream is to fade seamlessly into the fabric of society as a member of our authentic gender. It's to be totally and completely accepted as what we appear to be, with no hint of our unique pedigree. It's to leave behind all of the stigma and the hardships associated with being transsexual. Maybe I am a little weak and hence want stealth, not as strong as some others who are more comfortable with their complicated history and others knowing about it.
As far as telling potential partners, I am still preop and still not sure where I stand about not disclosing to potential partners(once I am post op).
Goal would be to make someone fall for me first and then disclose. But I guess it all depends on how successful the rest of my transition goes.
Thanks
Quote from: alex82 on March 26, 2017, 07:07:10 PM
You and me both.
I've had these conversations and debates too.
But what I referred to <as>not helpful <is> when some transsexuals so easily and openly criticize <natal>born women for not doing it right, not being pretty enough, not invested enough in appearance, not sexually appealing and available enough, for moving out of the 1950's.
And I don't say that lightly. I think it's really damaging and I can see precisely why it gets people's backs up. People have spent decades fighting for equality, and devoted their lives and careers to challenging these perceptions.
To have someone who wasn't <natally> born female come along shouting 'I can do it better' - that's offensive.
You find<much of this on> the Internet .
Some of that stuff that you find around the Internet is damaging trans and handing ammunition to detractors, against those of us who are trying to make a reasonable point about it being an innate feeling, rather than all the bells and whistles.
Moderator edit: Edited to remove trigger inducing phrases and to remove a banned topic
There are transpeople who rattle other people's cages. Especially older transwomen who come out in their fourties or fifties have the capability of doing so. Some of them have been living for a while being treated as men, and thus could have internalized sets of male socialization. It might be that when these people start transitioning, they're more visible than those who have finished transition, or those who're younger.
So, you've got a visible group of transwomen who are at the beginning of their transitions. These people are
still women! Their brains still are, and so is their gender and it's expression. In proclaiming their femininity for the first time, they can go far, but wouldn't you after having had to hold your heart for 40+ years?
The point is, TERFs argument in a very different way. A TERF will never (!) see transwomen as women simply on the basis that this is their
belief system. They argue on the scientifically disproven basis that transgender people have a mental disorder which has no basis in reality/neurology. Most of all, they proclaim a shared femininity, a common denominator which makes them 'different'. Both these lines of argumentation solely rely on biased opinions, not on any kind of fact. They're assumptions that fuel their fears, and are not of rational nature.
I get it you're trying to find the middle line, but I urge you to be considerate of your words. I even agree with you that transgender people and especially transwomen can say and do things that are offensive to some cis-women. But in arguing these actions
<removed here and posts earlier because of triggering responses> support the case of TERFs, you're treading on dangerous grounds.
Moderator edit:
:police: LOCKED FOR REVIEW :police:
:police:
Thread will remain locked.
Some choose to go stealth and others don't. Everyone makes those choices for different reasons and that results in many issues that results not only from how we feel about our own transitions and what is possible, but from what we believe ourselves and others should do. Now having said that be understanding of others choices and beliefs. No bashing, judging, attacking or ridiculing. Please keep in mind TOS 5, 9, 10, and 15. Thanks
Mariah