So I saw Dr. Ousterhout today for my consultation. He's a really nice man, obviously knows his stuff.
So then I spoke to the woman who gives the bad news, who was also really nice. We started having a cute conversation about how gosh darned pretty I was and how she wanted to see my beautiful eyes and lips come out with the surgery, and of course this pleased Blair.
But then Blair saw the total and promptly cried.
It got me a ten percent discount. That's how badly she felt. She said it would pay for the lip raising, which she really wanted to see me get cause it'd make my lips look even more purty.
So yeah, I don't know. I only have half of what I need saved up. I need this surgery, so bad. I'm going to beg family for donations or personal loans.
Yes, as of today I am officially accepting donations. Only $16,000 more to go!
*sob*
~ BB
P.S. No I am not begging for money here. Just sort of updating my progress!
You are indeed a beautiful girl. Sometimes I think surgeons embellish and exaggerate what is actually needed like mechanics do.
I know Dr. Ousterhout is probably the best of his kind but all salesmen overstate the need for the product. You already look great.
Blair, what is your goal? Do you want to pass? Or do you want to be a beauty queen? You could have little things done one at a time till you are satisfied. That way you could go ahead and start now.
Just an idea.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
:icon_hug: Blair, you have options. I know that Dr. O is one of the best FFS surgeons but he is also one of the most expensive ones! I would suggest that you join the yahoo groups on FFS. There is also this link:
http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm
tink :icon_chick:
Wow! just buy looking at the pictures and seeing the end product of some of the girls I would say that some of these Dr's know what their doing. I just want a couple little tuck at the jaws would make a lot of difference in appearance.
Cindy
Quote from: Kristi on November 30, 2007, 09:27:26 PM
Blair, what is your goal? Do you want to pass? Or do you want to be a beauty queen? You could have little things done one at a time till you are satisfied. That way you could go ahead and start now.
Just an idea.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
The thing is, I want to get everything done. It's not showing in the picture I have up, aside from the jaw, but I have just about every masculine feature there is, aside from the adam's apple. Wide jaw, heavy chin, manly brows, and a big Armenian nose. Considering that the anesthesia, surgery room, nursing care and medications are around $8,000 alone (might be less if I was getting only one procedure), I'd much rather same myself money in the long term and just do it all at once.
And of course I want to be a beauty queen. If I'm going to transition this early in life I want to enjoy my youth as a normal woman without any overtly masculine features on her face. It's a rare gift, and I want to experience it. There are lovely features on my face just waiting to become the center of attention once the distracting man-features are sanded down.
~ BB
Quote from: Tink on November 30, 2007, 09:36:06 PM
:icon_hug: Blair, you have options. I know that Dr. O is one of the best FFS surgeons but he is also one of the most expensive ones! I would suggest that you join the yahoo groups on FFS. There is also this link:
http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm
tink :icon_chick:
Ironic that the website links photos to dozens of successful FFS subjects, the vast majority of them Dr O graduates.
Posted on: December 01, 2007, 09:50:03 AM
Quote from: Kristi on November 30, 2007, 09:27:26 PM
Blair, what is your goal? Do you want to pass? Or do you want to be a beauty queen? You could have little things done one at a time till you are satisfied. That way you could go ahead and start now.
Just an idea.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Might not be a bad idea in Blair's case. Hate to be brutally honest but that jaw is a real problem. I don't believe in scrimping when it comes to my face but maybe there is someone who could do the jaw much cheaper than Dr O and I don't think a jaw requires the artistic eye that only Doug has. Just a thought.
Posted on: December 01, 2007, 09:58:14 AM
Quote from: cindybc on November 30, 2007, 10:55:18 PM
Wow! just buy looking at the pictures and seeing the end product of some of the girls I would say that some of these Dr's know what their doing. I just want a couple little tuck at the jaws would make a lot of difference in appearance.
Cindy
Most of "those" doctors are Dr O.
Posted on: December 01, 2007, 10:01:45 AM
Quote from: Nero on November 30, 2007, 07:49:19 PM
You are indeed a beautiful girl. Sometimes I think surgeons embellish and exaggerate what is actually needed like mechanics do.
I know Dr. Ousterhout is probably the best of his kind but all salesmen overstate the need for the product. You already look great.
Actually that is not the case with Dr O and I know this from my own experience and from the feedback of many of his patients. Dr O has more "business" than he can handle already. I was shocked when I got in on my second procedure with only a three month wait.
Now I am just holding my breath awaiting the discovery of this topic by the Dr O haters here. (Those who can't afford him and have the emotional need to denigrate his work.)
Thanks Melissa!
Actually, I was going to ask Dr. O if he could just do the jaw work for now, which I can actually afford (barely). It's the most glaring feature I have, and I think I'd pass just fine with it taken care of. Everything after that point (Scalp advance, brow work, rhinoplasty, lip thingy, etc.) would just be the icing on the cake.
~ BB
I'm not a Dr. O hater just in case. I was just pointing out that he is expensive. If I ever decide on FFS (when everything begins to sag ;D), he will be my surgeon. Mira sounds like a lot of fun as well according to some friends who have met her.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Blair on November 30, 2007, 11:57:06 PM
And of course I want to be a beauty queen. If I'm going to transition this early in life I want to enjoy my youth as a normal woman without any overtly masculine features on her face. It's a rare gift, and I want to experience it. There are lovely features on my face just waiting to become the center of attention once the distracting man-features are sanded down.
~ BB
Beauty really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Take it from someone who knows. I was cursed by whatever gods to be a blonde beauty with great tits in my pre- decrepit sick widower era. It's just a shell. It means nothing. I still choked anybody who attempted to photograph me.
Quote from: Nero on December 01, 2007, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Blair on November 30, 2007, 11:57:06 PM
And of course I want to be a beauty queen. If I'm going to transition this early in life I want to enjoy my youth as a normal woman without any overtly masculine features on her face. It's a rare gift, and I want to experience it. There are lovely features on my face just waiting to become the center of attention once the distracting man-features are sanded down.
~ BB
Beauty really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Take it from someone who knows. I was cursed by whatever gods to be a blonde beauty with great tits in my pre- decrepit sick widower era. It's just a shell. It means nothing. I still choked anybody who attempted to photograph me.
Well I won't exactly be traditionally beautiful. I still want my nose to be kind of big and ethnic looking. And I intend to get a lot of facial piercings and fun tattoos.
That's my kind of beauty!
~ BB
Quote from: Blair on December 01, 2007, 12:36:54 PM
Quote from: Nero on December 01, 2007, 12:21:26 PM
Quote from: Blair on November 30, 2007, 11:57:06 PM
And of course I want to be a beauty queen. If I'm going to transition this early in life I want to enjoy my youth as a normal woman without any overtly masculine features on her face. It's a rare gift, and I want to experience it. There are lovely features on my face just waiting to become the center of attention once the distracting man-features are sanded down.
~ BB
Beauty really isn't all it's cracked up to be. Take it from someone who knows. I was cursed by whatever gods to be a blonde beauty with great tits in my pre- decrepit sick widower era. It's just a shell. It means nothing. I still choked anybody who attempted to photograph me.
Well I won't exactly be traditionally beautiful. I still want my nose to be kind of big and ethnic looking. And I intend to get a lot of facial piercings and fun tattoos.
That's my kind of beauty!
~ BB
You don't intend to change your nose. That's great! It's gorgeous and unique. Uniqueness is where true beauty lies. You're right, beauty isn't conventional. The most beautiful people are the untraditional.
There's a doctor in my city that does FFS. Although, apprently it takes forever to see him. However, I've been told that if I walk in his office he probably won't touch me because he tends not to want to do it unless you really need work (and ppl keep saying that I don't need work).
I cannot afford any FFS but I don't really care. Whatever I have is what the world gets to see and pits on whomever doesn't like it. I use Mary Kay makeup when I want to and that's my limit for now.
If I ever have the money a simple face lift is fine with me. I have observed many women and seen their brow lines and there are enough of them with a heavy brow line for me not to feel particularly cursed.
Really, I feel blessed as I am. Sure, I need to lose weight and tone my muscles but I am happy with myself as my Creator and La Dame Estrogen have made me.
Wing Walker
FFS surgery is not a fairy magic wand and like all surgery it has it's limitations. I have some lined up but I'm not expecting miracles...
Quote from: Berliegh on December 02, 2007, 05:37:25 AM
FFS surgery is not a fairy magic wand and like all surgery it has it's limitations. I have some lined up but I'm not expecting miracles...
Thanks for the ray of sunshine, sunshine!
Blair, i think you should shop around for a ffs surgeon. While doctor O is one of the best, he is also very old. What would happen if he had a senior moment while working on your face ??
Quote from: Berliegh on December 02, 2007, 05:37:25 AM
FFS surgery is not a fairy magic wand and like all surgery it has it's limitations. I have some lined up but I'm not expecting miracles...
Why in the world would you want to do surgery when you have a face like yours? I think you underestimate yourself.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on December 02, 2007, 09:39:56 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 02, 2007, 05:37:25 AM
FFS surgery is not a fairy magic wand and like all surgery it has it's limitations. I have some lined up but I'm not expecting miracles...
Why in the world would you want to do surgery when you have a face like yours? I think you underestimate yourself.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I agree, Kristi. Blair you are beautiful and unique. True beauty is a rare gift. The most beautiful people are uncoventially beautiful. Whatever you do, please do not become a cookie cutter beauty.
Hey, all I really want is my man jaw and man brow to be fixed. I'm honestly really skittish about rhinoplasty because I do NOT want a non-ethnic looking nose. I would just want the nose I have now, only a little smaller because the brow work will make it look bigger than it is now.
All in all the work I need done isn't really complicated. I would even be happy with just the jaw being done.
Also, I appreciate the compliments Nero, but the picture I have up right now is at a ridiculously flattering angle. I am NOT beautiful unless I can figure out a way to use lighting and angling to pull the attention away from the glaring masculine errors and onto my lips and eyes.
Anyways, can anyone recommend a surgeon for that? Preferably one they've been to?
~ BB
Hi Blair
Take a look around for any and all possible different options that you have at your disposal. If you do go for the surgery, cheapest is not always the best way to go. Fixing the chin many times requires breaking the jaw bone in different places and resetting it. That could spell pain for several moths and you may have to be sucking your nutrition's through a straw for a time.
I just accepted myself for who I was and I may not be no beauty queen, I am past that age but I do love being who I am and hey i I can still attract the attention of males I believe I am doing great for a 60 years old.
Cindy
Quote from: Blair on December 02, 2007, 12:58:47 PM
Anyways, can anyone recommend a surgeon for that? Preferably one they've been to?
I have no experience with them outside long-distance consultations, but Dr. Zukowski in Chicago and Dr. Spiegel in Boston are also reputable FFS surgeons.
~Kate~
Posted on: December 02, 2007, 04:15:08 PM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 02, 2007, 05:37:25 AM
FFS surgery is not a fairy magic wand and like all surgery it has it's limitations. I have some lined up but I'm not expecting miracles...
I disagree. From what I've seen, FFS can produce absolute miracles. There aren't many limitations when you get to the point of removing and reshaping bone, adding implants, etc.
~Kate~
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 01, 2007, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Tink on November 30, 2007, 09:36:06 PM
:icon_hug: Blair, you have options. I know that Dr. O is one of the best FFS surgeons but he is also one of the most expensive ones! I would suggest that you join the yahoo groups on FFS. There is also this link:
http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm
tink :icon_chick:
Ironic that the website links photos to dozens of successful FFS subjects, the vast majority of them Dr O graduates.
Posted on: December 01, 2007, 09:50:03 AM
Quote from: Kristi on November 30, 2007, 09:27:26 PM
Blair, what is your goal? Do you want to pass? Or do you want to be a beauty queen? You could have little things done one at a time till you are satisfied. That way you could go ahead and start now.
Just an idea.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Might not be a bad idea in Blair's case. Hate to be brutally honest but that jaw is a real problem. I don't believe in scrimping when it comes to my face but maybe there is someone who could do the jaw much cheaper than Dr O and I don't think a jaw requires the artistic eye that only Doug has. Just a thought.
Posted on: December 01, 2007, 09:58:14 AM
Quote from: cindybc on November 30, 2007, 10:55:18 PM
Wow! just buy looking at the pictures and seeing the end product of some of the girls I would say that some of these Dr's know what their doing. I just want a couple little tuck at the jaws would make a lot of difference in appearance.
Cindy
Most of "those" doctors are Dr O.
Posted on: December 01, 2007, 10:01:45 AM
Quote from: Nero on November 30, 2007, 07:49:19 PM
You are indeed a beautiful girl. Sometimes I think surgeons embellish and exaggerate what is actually needed like mechanics do.
I know Dr. Ousterhout is probably the best of his kind but all salesmen overstate the need for the product. You already look great.
Actually that is not the case with Dr O and I know this from my own experience and from the feedback of many of his patients. Dr O has more "business" than he can handle already. I was shocked when I got in on my second procedure with only a three month wait.
Now I am just holding my breath awaiting the discovery of this topic by the Dr O haters here. (Those who can't afford him and have the emotional need to denigrate his work.)
Melissa once again, I completely disagree with everything you are saying here, and the truth is surgery would be much cheaper if she did not go to Dr. O, and I highy suggest she gets a consultation from another Doctor who is cheaper, and YOUNGER. There are other Doctors out there and Dr. O you should have never gone in the first place, but I have to agree with Melissa, you DEFINATELY need FFS to just pass. No getting around it. But if you want to PM I can give you alternatives to Dr. Overpriced and Dr. OLD. Sorry, Melissa, as big as a fan of him you are, there are alot more surgeons out there with a great eye and who do good work other than Dr. O.
I am not going to dance around the subject. If you want to go to Dr. O and pay more fine. But the fact is you need FFS, and there are other Doctors who are good, including a couple in the bay area.
PS. Dr. Speigel so far the work I have seen from him is far superior to the work I have seen from O. Less scaring, more natural appearance. Right now I would put him above O. He is also significantly cheaper. Just my opinion. There is also Dr. Joel Beck in the bay area which I know some people went to and have had good results. I could on, but the days of Dr. O being the best, or the only surgeon are over.
Seriously do not get your heart set on O. He is by far the most expensive. Look around quite a bit more before you commit to anybody.
Quote from: Kristi on December 02, 2007, 09:39:56 AM
Quote from: Berliegh on December 02, 2007, 05:37:25 AM
FFS surgery is not a fairy magic wand and like all surgery it has it's limitations. I have some lined up but I'm not expecting miracles...
Why in the world would you want to do surgery when you have a face like yours? I think you underestimate yourself.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Please, Kristi, don't get Berliegh started! underestimating is not even a word to her. lol. but you're right: what would she change?
Quote from: Amy T. on December 02, 2007, 06:13:29 PMyou DEFINATELY need FFS to just pass.
There's just no way to know that until at least a year of HRT, possibly two, and seeing what happens out there
In Real Life. Soooo many people cry
"I'll never pass without surgery!" and then a year later are posting,
"I can't believe people just see a woman now!"Still, I perfectly understand the desire to lose masculine features, even if we DO pass just fine.
~Kate~
Quote from: Amy T. on December 02, 2007, 06:13:29 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 01, 2007, 10:10:40 AM
Quote from: Tink on November 30, 2007, 09:36:06 PM
:icon_hug: Blair, you have options. I know that Dr. O is one of the best FFS surgeons but he is also one of the most expensive ones! I would suggest that you join the yahoo groups on FFS. There is also this link:
http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm
tink :icon_chick:
Ironic that the website links photos to dozens of successful FFS subjects, the vast majority of them Dr O graduates.
Posted on: December 01, 2007, 09:50:03 AM
Quote from: Kristi on November 30, 2007, 09:27:26 PM
Blair, what is your goal? Do you want to pass? Or do you want to be a beauty queen? You could have little things done one at a time till you are satisfied. That way you could go ahead and start now.
Just an idea.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Might not be a bad idea in Blair's case. Hate to be brutally honest but that jaw is a real problem. I don't believe in scrimping when it comes to my face but maybe there is someone who could do the jaw much cheaper than Dr O and I don't think a jaw requires the artistic eye that only Doug has. Just a thought.
Posted on: December 01, 2007, 09:58:14 AM
Quote from: cindybc on November 30, 2007, 10:55:18 PM
Wow! just buy looking at the pictures and seeing the end product of some of the girls I would say that some of these Dr's know what their doing. I just want a couple little tuck at the jaws would make a lot of difference in appearance.
Cindy
Most of "those" doctors are Dr O.
Posted on: December 01, 2007, 10:01:45 AM
Quote from: Nero on November 30, 2007, 07:49:19 PM
You are indeed a beautiful girl. Sometimes I think surgeons embellish and exaggerate what is actually needed like mechanics do.
I know Dr. Ousterhout is probably the best of his kind but all salesmen overstate the need for the product. You already look great.
Actually that is not the case with Dr O and I know this from my own experience and from the feedback of many of his patients. Dr O has more "business" than he can handle already. I was shocked when I got in on my second procedure with only a three month wait.
Now I am just holding my breath awaiting the discovery of this topic by the Dr O haters here. (Those who can't afford him and have the emotional need to denigrate his work.)
Melissa once again, I completely disagree with everything you are saying here, and the truth is surgery would be much cheaper if she did not go to Dr. O, and I highy suggest she gets a consultation from another Doctor who is cheaper, and YOUNGER. There are other Doctors out there and Dr. O you should have never gone in the first place, but I have to agree with Melissa, you DEFINATELY need FFS to just pass. No getting around it. But if you want to PM I can give you alternatives to Dr. Overpriced and Dr. OLD. Sorry, Melissa, as big as a fan of him you are, there are alot more surgeons out there with a great eye and who do good work other than Dr. O.
I am not going to dance around the subject. If you want to go to Dr. O and pay more fine. But the fact is you need FFS, and there are other Doctors who are good, including a couple in the bay area.
PS. Dr. Speigel so far the work I have seen from him is far superior to the work I have seen from O. Less scaring, more natural appearance. Right now I would put him above O. He is also significantly cheaper. Just my opinion. There is also Dr. Joel Beck in the bay area which I know some people went to and have had good results. I could on, but the days of Dr. O being the best, or the only surgeon are over.
Seriously do not get your heart set on O. He is by far the most expensive. Look around quite a bit more before you commit to anybody.
It was only a matter of time.
Posted on: December 03, 2007, 07:49:01 AM
Quote from: Kate on December 02, 2007, 06:35:47 PM
Quote from: Amy T. on December 02, 2007, 06:13:29 PMyou DEFINATELY need FFS to just pass.
There's just no way to know that until at least a year of HRT, possibly two, and seeing what happens out there In Real Life. Soooo many people cry "I'll never pass without surgery!" and then a year later are posting, "I can't believe people just see a woman now!"
Still, I perfectly understand the desire to lose masculine features, even if we DO pass just fine.
~Kate~
I still don't get it when people with obviously male features claim they "pass" so well. Perhaps, in whatever locale they live in, people haven't learned how to play "Spot the ->-bleeped-<-."
Then again, most people walk around in such a state of unawareness, self and otherwise, that any delusion or denial is easy to maintain.
Posted on: December 03, 2007, 07:57:55 AM
Quote from: Blair on December 02, 2007, 12:58:47 PM
Hey, all I really want is my man jaw and man brow to be fixed. I'm honestly really skittish about rhinoplasty because I do NOT want a non-ethnic looking nose. I would just want the nose I have now, only a little smaller because the brow work will make it look bigger than it is now.
All in all the work I need done isn't really complicated. I would even be happy with just the jaw being done.
Also, I appreciate the compliments Nero, but the picture I have up right now is at a ridiculously flattering angle. I am NOT beautiful unless I can figure out a way to use lighting and angling to pull the attention away from the glaring masculine errors and onto my lips and eyes.
Anyways, can anyone recommend a surgeon for that? Preferably one they've been to?
~ BB
I think the jaw work would help a lot in your case. I was wondering what Dr O said about you wanting to keep your nose. I was one of only three patients for whom he did not recommend and perform a rhino. You can PM me if you feel more comfortable.
If you want something bad enough, and make it your top priority, you will get it. Buying a nice vehicle is more expensive than FFS even the works. I managed to build my credit to the point that I financed all my procedures on 0% credit cards. (then later 4.99% rollovers) I even (so far) have managed to pay them. My worst case scenario was I would default and lose my credit standing, they can't repossess one's face, breasts or vagina :)
Ha ha, Melissa, you're alright! I like it.
Well I just checked in with Spiegel over email about prices and guess what?
They are THE SAME PRICE. Cheaper my FACE. I'm just going with Dr. O, and I'm going to figure something out for payment. I have some assets my father left me that I'm not entitled to until I'm 35. Maybe I can sign them over to a relative or something for cash now.
I have options. I'm just depressed and lazy right now. -_-
~ BB
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 03, 2007, 08:08:18 AM
I still don't get it when people with obviously male features claim they "pass" so well. Perhaps, in whatever locale they live in, people haven't learned how to play "Spot the ->-bleeped-<-."
Wow, we live in very, very different worlds Melissa. I'm beginning to see why we disagree so much on certain things. I don't think I'd be able to survive out there. I know you think I'm delusional, and maybe out there I WOULD be, but here... how I am, and how I approach all this makes sense and fits me into my world around me here. But I guess it might not work at all in your context.
I can't imagine living in a world where TSism, trans-rights, progressive-issues, gender-bending.... all that stuff is on the forefront of everyone's minds. It's just not like that where I live. No one even THINKS about it. No one is looking for transsexuals. The category doesn't even exist. There's no contest or focus on passing other than being congruent enough to not raise a fuss and get on with life.
The irony (and I DO so love ironies!) is that you're showing me that it's actually BETTER to live in a restrictive, regressive, binary, male-or-female environment. People here don't WANT me to be "transsexual" - they need me to be either male of female to fit into their tidy little binary world, and once you cross a certain threshold, they seem to be willing to ignore your biological history and slot you into your target sex.
Funny how curses keep turning into blessings...
~Kate~
Quote from: Kate on December 03, 2007, 02:55:44 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 03, 2007, 08:08:18 AM
I still don't get it when people with obviously male features claim they "pass" so well. Perhaps, in whatever locale they live in, people haven't learned how to play "Spot the ->-bleeped-<-."
Wow, we live in very, very different worlds Melissa. I'm beginning to see why we disagree so much on certain things. I don't think I'd be able to survive out there. I know you think I'm delusional, and maybe out there I WOULD be, but here... how I am, and how I approach all this makes sense and fits me into my world around me here. But I guess it might not work at all in your context.
I can't imagine living in a world where TSism, trans-rights, progressive-issues, gender-bending.... all that stuff is on the forefront of everyone's minds. It's just not like that where I live. No one even THINKS about it. No one is looking for transsexuals. The category doesn't even exist. There's no contest or focus on passing other than being congruent enough to not raise a fuss and get on with life.
The irony (and I DO so love ironies!) is that you're showing me that it's actually BETTER to live in a restrictive, regressive, binary, male-or-female environment. People here don't WANT me to be "transsexual" - they need me to be either male of female to fit into their tidy little binary world, and once you cross a certain threshold, they seem to be willing to ignore your biological history and slot you into your target sex.
Funny how curses keep turning into blessings...
~Kate~
I agree. In Mississippi most folks would not believe you if it was staring them in the face. It just does not happen here.
There's not a lot of trans awareness where I live, but a large LGBT community. Drag queens are rampant, making it harder for not-so-passable women and not-so-passable transmen are just mistaken for butches. This may be one reason why so many pre-T transguys seemingly pass elsewhere, but not here. People are too accostumed to masculine looking women.
Kate, I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone in particular is delusional except to the extent that all of us are delusional and in denial to some extent.(at least about something It is just human nature. It allows us to cope.
They may play spot the ->-bleeped-<- in San Fran, but San Fran is an island onto itself. Significantly more trans aware. Then again I passed with residents of San Fran before (you know you pass when they talk about you having children). In DC, and heck even in Chicago and NYC most people do not do that or even aware of a TS unless they REALLY stick out. I have seen a few who do, but the truth is...I don't here in DC, the city is probably the least trans-aware in the US. FFS is more for myself to tell you the truth then passing, and what I will be getting will be limited to a rhinoplasty, forehead contour and scalp advance.
The rest of the world is not that trans aware as San Fran. The city is like a trans ghetto for people who do not pass. Most of us do just fine in the real world.
The thing that people fail to realize is that as time goes by, everywhere will be like the city by the bay , people will become more and more trans aware and all those who disdained FFS and bragged about how great they THINK they "passed" will be wishing they had gone to DR O before he retired. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 04, 2007, 11:43:18 PM
The thing that people fail to realize is that as time goes by, everywhere will be like the city by the bay , people will become more and more trans aware and all those who disdained FFS and bragged about how great they THINK they "passed" will be wishing they had gone to DR O before he retired. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Again, there will probably be about a dozen or surgeons around he has already trained.
If you are really foolish to think every city will be as trans aware as San Fran, you really are living in your own little world.
It will never happen. You also forget quite a bit of trans-awareness comes from being trans.
I live in the city by the bay and have lived in Cali for a long time, all the trends start here. The rest of the countrty is 2o years behind.
I traveled all of eastern US and Canada and just recently moved to BC, one and a half countries and never had problems with anyone. I am quite aware that I don't fit in 100% I will not elude myself. I believe myself that personality had a lot to do with my getting along with folks. Still do. A good sense of humor doesn't hurt either. Well anyway that was the way I did it. When I left a particular place I even had people tell me they would miss me.
Cindy
To call SF a 'ghetto' is to ignore the (sur)real estate prices here.
And, as only the people who live here know, its not what others think it is. We have a great deal of freedom and liberty, not out of some liberal mentality, but really for the most conservative reason of all - its the most lucrative way to go. If you let people be free, one of the things they are free to do is to make money.
And we are also aware that things are not always as they seem, or at least not 100%. The girl in the leather cat suit with the whip and handcuffs is a corporate lawyer the next morning. The punk guy wearing a leather coat that looks like it was dragged behind a car all the way from LA made more money last year as a senior (though he is only 25) game developer than I will in a lifetime - holes in his jeans, an "E" class MB in the driveway.
And though we are, as we like to say "49 square miles surrounded by reality" we are pretty real. We treat each other (for the most part) like decent people because we assume (rightly or wrongly) that you are doing what you feel compelled to do. You are being who you are. ->-bleeped-<-s are not the only people here with casual day to day acceptance, plenty of other 'different' people find the same deal.
And Veronica is right. If you want to know what is going to be happening in your town ten years from now, watch what we are doing now.
Quote from: Veronica Secret on December 09, 2007, 10:54:23 AM
I live in the city by the bay and have lived in Cali for a long time, all the trends start here. The rest of the countrty is 2o years behind.
Seriously keep thinking that. Generally speaking coming from the east coast, I have noticed how Cali always tends to lag in everything from Fashion to Music.
Generally speaking things move this way : NYC-->Chicago---->California
You people live in a bubble sometimes, and its not going to happen.
There are people from California, especially San Fran who think 10 to 20 years it will be like that, but people in Chicago and NYC always respectfully disagree. NYC is generally the one who sets the trend for the rest of the country, NOT CALIFORNIA. California has been its own little world for awhile. Where people think they set the trends, but it generally is not the case. Things generally filter east to west, not vice versa.
Sorry, I have seen trends for dozens of years. I have not seen one that started in California. Musically they always start out east or in the midwest. Fashion that ALWAYS starts out east, except for some subculture fashions (emo, indie) start in the midwest or again, NYC.
I don't know where you are thinking the country follows California as a trend, but that has never been the case. Cali has ALWAYS been its own little island. Closer to walking its own path then a trend setter.
To say that all trends start in Cali is not just off base, it completely ignores the pull that NYC has out east or that Chicago has in middle America. Suggest that all trends start in Cali to ANYBODY from NYC, and watch them laugh in your face. If you would have said the same thing to somebody from Chicago they would do the same thing, they would say "I could have believed you if you said NYC, because there is some truth to that".
California has always overrated itself, be it the BAY or LA. Its not a trend setter nationally, and never was. NYC is the ONLY place in the US who can make that claim.
Cali is also where everyone follows the Jones. Fad after fad start and end as they usually are pretty ridiculous. It is where no one has an understanding of where the extreme starts.
Or where it end.
But to answer the original question, no one ever regrets buying the best.
I have had some PMs with Blair, and I will let her tell you what she has decided but I know she will be fabulous, I mean absolutely stunning! Why be "passable" when you can be one of the it girls (like myself!) No, really, my life has become magical, simply marvelous, and beyond my WILDEST dreams. I could regret that I this wasn't available earlier in my life. But to the contrary, I LOVE seeing younger girls get to enjoy this.
I am glad that Doug is training predecessors but let's face it, there is only one Michaelangelo, one Leonardo Da Vinci. One Ella.
BTW I agree that the trends start here, I could easily list a hundred of them but I have no need to try to win arguments with minds that are closed. Regardless, it is going to be harder and harder to "pass" as the general populace becomes more and more trans-aware. Hopefully, when that happens, tolerance will come with it. In SF, even the "it girls" get clocked but no one cares. Amazingly, just travel down the peninsula and the awareness drops remarkably.
wow It's the East coast vs West Coast wars!
Girls on the East Coast still use acrylic nails! Ugh!
Of course, there are only two kinds of people, those who live in San Francisco and those who wish they could. It is called Peninsula Envy. LOL
My whole father's side of the family has been living in San Francisco since the turn of the century. It is Armenian, and my grandfather was an engineer (one of the chief engineers who was in charge of the building of the bay bridge, in fact.) My dad moved away when he was young, and I only visited three times a year or so to see my extended family (conveniently my mother's family lived in the nearby Napa valley.)
Anyways, my father died a few months ago after a long battle with cancer. It shook me pretty hard. He was a truly beautiful human being, and he's responsible for shaping me into the good person I am today. That combined with a recent opportunity and information I've learned about benefits for trans people in SF has compelled me to move there in the next couple of months.
So, I don't know what all this arguing is about.
Trends? Fashion? Who cares? I think when they say San Fran is "20 years ahead" they don't mean they're dressing in space-age fashion and using nanite medical technology. It means they're 20 years ahead in terms of treating and recognizing people as human beings with city ordinances, laws and local politics.
You're talking to a girl who, after getting her FFS, is going to stick metal piercings in her face, put on heavy goth makeup and start collecting leather. Hell, I'm already doing it.
Fashion? I don't need New York or Chicago to tell me what to wear or listen to. I wear what I feel represents my soul, and I listen to the music I love, which happens to be a combination of european goth metal, electronica, 80's pop, synthpop and cybertronic.
As far as I'm concerned, I am the 21st century.
~ BB
P.S. Amy T., you have some serious venom in your words sometimes. I don't understand why. Your monologue about how I needed FFS in order to function properly as a human being because I was so monstrous looking kind of took a girl who was in an already fragile state and destroyed what little self confidence she was trying to build. (The thread in question is now deleted.)
I believe you said yourself it is impossible to determine anything from one picture, and yet that didn't stop you from driving me into the ground.
Yes I'm being personal. Personally, your sharp tone hurts my feelings, and I'll note that while Melissa has made an effort to help me move in the right direction through PMs, and given my confidence a little boost, you've done nothing but turn this thread into an argument of "east vs. west" that rivals the rap industry in terms of sheer irrelevance and stupidity.
If you have nothing constructive to say, stop positing in this thread, please.
And as I said before, I looked around. Dr. Ousterhout is the most expensive by a scarce amount. So your advice earlier, while it was appreciated for causing me to doubt someone incredibly reputable and kind, is now rendered impotent. Thanks anyways.
With all that said, REPRIMAND ME!
Kind of like rappers, but with different underwear.
We should be punished. And I know just where to start. Stop using any computer with an AMD or Intel processor - and for god's sake, dump that Apple and that HP printer. And the net? Get off it, because its just one darn Cisco product after the other (Cisco Systems, of course, short for San FranCISCO).
Oh yeah, and that TV, get rid of it. Not only are most shows (except soap operas) filmed here, but the darn thing was even invented in San Fran by Philo T. Farnsworth on September 7, 1927 when he first demonstrated it down at his lab on 202 Green Street (X Sansome). (according to the U.S. Patent Office, after years, and years, and decades of lawsuits.)
And the East Coasters are right. We are nuts. After all, what's Christmas without having to dig out from tons of snow. Another brutal Christmas at the beach having to be concerned if our ornaments are going to melt in the sun. Ickky. Heck, I know more people who are worried about when Mavericks' is going to be called then when Christmas is.
Rents are high, apartments are small - OK, NYC is like that too.
But, in all honesty, this is good. Its good to have a sense of place. Of being in a place where you chose to be. And liking that place and space too. I love New York. I have a great time whenever I'm there. I remember fondly my evenings at the old Edelweiss in Hell's Kitchen. And contrary to the notion that people in NYC are a bunch of a**holes, they are about the most friendly people I've ever met in my travels. I've never had a bad time there.
And I think that one of the things that NYC/SF/LA and other places like that have in common is that everyone is busy. Small towns where everyone is a Nosy Parker, it ain't happening in major cities. "Your misfortune and none of my own" is more the order of the day. There is enough going on that that everyone can have their place. Its not "spot the ->-bleeped-<-" as much as its "assume the ->-bleeped-<-." It might be their life, or just one night - either way its all good. If boys want to be girls, girls boys, date each other, date themselves or not date anyone - its cool. Because, really, I'm way too busy to care much. Because I have to be at work, then meet a friend for coffee at Tully's and I have a 4 o'clock appointment a the Apple store for a workshop, and Macy's is having a sale, I want to go to the Virgin Megastore and get a DVD, and I'm meeting someone else for dinner at Cancun, and I have to be back at work but I want to go to the bookstore on the way, and yeesh, I'm tired. And that's on the days when I'm not working from 9am to 2am - after 16 hours you really don't care about much but sleep. So I don't even care if that's two boys holding hands, or two girls - or a couple of who knows.
LOL! Yeah the only thing wrong with life in the city is that we haven't figured out how to make a day at least 30 hours instead of 24. There is so much to do.
Go with what works. I've seen many examples of Dr. Os' work, and he does good work. And given the effects of bad work, I would think it would be worth it. Given a choice between FFS and SRS I think I'd pick the former because everyone sees your face, and (hopefully) not everyone will see the naughty bits.
I know he has people come to him from all over the country, from all over the world. And, as has been stated, the cost difference between him and the second or third best is not all that much.
Its your life, what would make you happy? Figure that out, and go from there.
Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2007, 12:31:21 PM
Kind of like rappers, but with different underwear.
We should be punished. And I know just where to start. Stop using any computer with an AMD or Intel processor - and for god's sake, dump that Apple and that HP printer. And the net? Get off it, because its just one darn Cisco product after the other (Cisco Systems, of course, short for San FranCISCO).
Oh yeah, and that TV, get rid of it. Not only are most shows (except soap operas) filmed here, but the darn thing was even invented in San Fran by Philo T. Farnsworth on September 7, 1927 when he first demonstrated it down at his lab on 202 Green Street (X Sansome). (according to the U.S. Patent Office, after years, and years, and decades of lawsuits.)
And the East Coasters are right. We are nuts. After all, what's Christmas without having to dig out from tons of snow. Another brutal Christmas at the beach having to be concerned if our ornaments are going to melt in the sun. Ickky. Heck, I know more people who are worried about when Mavericks' is going to be called then when Christmas is.
Rents are high, apartments are small - OK, NYC is like that too.
But, in all honesty, this is good. Its good to have a sense of place. Of being in a place where you chose to be. And liking that place and space too. I love New York. I have a great time whenever I'm there. I remember fondly my evenings at the old Edelweiss in Hell's Kitchen. And contrary to the notion that people in NYC are a bunch of a**holes, they are about the most friendly people I've ever met in my travels. I've never had a bad time there.
And I think that one of the things that NYC/SF/LA and other places like that have in common is that everyone is busy. Small towns where everyone is a Nosy Parker, it ain't happening in major cities. "Your misfortune and none of my own" is more the order of the day. There is enough going on that that everyone can have their place. Its not "spot the ->-bleeped-<-" as much as its "assume the ->-bleeped-<-." It might be their life, or just one night - either way its all good. If boys want to be girls, girls boys, date each other, date themselves or not date anyone - its cool. Because, really, I'm way too busy to care much. Because I have to be at work, then meet a friend for coffee at Tully's and I have a 4 o'clock appointment a the Apple store for a workshop, and Macy's is having a sale, I want to go to the Virgin Megastore and get a DVD, and I'm meeting someone else for dinner at Cancun, and I have to be back at work but I want to go to the bookstore on the way, and yeesh, I'm tired. And that's on the days when I'm not working from 9am to 2am - after 16 hours you really don't care about much but sleep. So I don't even care if that's two boys holding hands, or two girls - or a couple of who knows.
Ha ha! nice post.
but to get back to the topic -- what was the topic again? Oh yeah, Dr. O. i was told it would be nuts to go to Dr. O when there are so many other quality surgeons out there. do lots of research, check their track record, review lots of pics of their work. and don't go with the lowest bidder.
but anyway, Blair, you have youthful good looks to start with. my only suggestion in the meantime, would be to sculpt those eyebrows (work from the bottom, to move them farther up away from your eyes).
-ell
Ell, exactly what are you suggesting for Blair's eyebrows? I don't see that she can do much unless she removes her natural brows and creates an artificial line with a pencil and she certainly wouldn't want to do that.
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 10, 2007, 01:11:04 PM
Ell, exactly what are you suggesting for Blair's eyebrows? I don't see that she can do much unless she removes her natural brows and creates an artificial line with a pencil and she certainly wouldn't want to do that.
well, yours, for instance, seem to be much smaller and thinner, more contoured, and well clear of the "puffy area" above the eyes.
i think Blair could stand to go for a more girly look in that regard, too.
i may still have a post here, somewhere, regarding the bottom of the eyebrows.
-ell
OK. I get mine done. It's only $8 but once you get them done, you can maintain them yourself for free. I use a little eyebrow razor when I do that.
Eyebrow threading is the best! It's a South Asian technique. I go to a Hindu beauty salon and get my eyebrows threaded every couple weeks. Five minutes, five dollars. Can't be beat.
Hi Blair hon Don't pay attention to the mean spirited comments. You go right on ahead and do what you feel you need to do to to do to feel comfortable with who you are.
Just between you and me, I try my best to not offend anyone, I don't want to be turned into a toad. And hey I am still quite into the rock stuff that most people my age find offensive to the ears. ;D
May God speed and enjoy your life eh.
Posted on: December 10, 2007, 05:13:49 PM
Hi Ell
That's what I call whatsisits. I remember one time walking down the sidewalk in my hometown beside my dad. The hippie era.... hmmmm now you speak about gender benders with the unisex clothing and both guys and girls looking the same and here I was with the long hair and the unisex clothes and did pass as a girl back then. My dad ups and remarks out loud pointing at a couple ahead of us. I swear, he said, you would have to pull their pants down to tell what they are.
But my dad wasn't mean spirited. he was just a straight out and say it type of guy.
Cindy
Quote from: Hypatia on December 10, 2007, 04:58:05 PM
Eyebrow threading is the best! It's a South Asian technique. I go to a Hindu beauty salon and get my eyebrows threaded every couple weeks. Five minutes, five dollars. Can't be beat.
every couple
of weeks? i just don't understand people, i guess.
i have to pluck at least 20 hairs
daily to keep from looking like a Neanderthal.
if i went a couple of weeks, i'd definitely look like a bushmaster.
-ell
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 10, 2007, 11:02:53 AM
Girls on the East Coast still use acrylic nails! Ugh!
Of course, there are only two kinds of people, those who live in San Francisco and those who wish they could. It is called Peninsula Envy. LOL
Keep thinking that. Seriously. As far as out west I rather be in Portland or Seattle then the bay city. Last I checked I cannot think of anything that made it east of the Mississipi that came from San Fransisco. If you can name 100 trends from San Fran I can probably name 10,000 plus from NYC or Chicago or Boston, from entire musical genres to fashion trends. Last I checked everything from Punk, to Indie, to Goth, to Emo, to High Style New York stuff, and I could go on and on. It may be worth if for you to travel outside the Bay to see how little it matters. The east coast revolves around NYC, the midwest Chicago. Very few things if anything at all cracks into the sphere of influence of those two cities from San Fransisco or California. The Northwest, as in Seattle and Olympia occasionally has some influence, Riot Grrl, which was born in Olympia washington and DC really took hold in the midwest. But lets put it this way, every designer and design comes out of NYC, Chicago has the indie record labels, NYC and Chicago have the theaters, and NYC has the publishers. Whats in San Fran...umm....seriously. Get real. California thinks its a trend setter, but last I checked its the goths who are still there, and they have been passe here in the east for years. Emo, which was born in the midwest, was well taken in California and warped into something awful, and it was pretty bad to begin with, and I could go on and on. Right trendsetter, keep thinking that. California does not pick up on stuff till it passes through the subcultures of NYC and Chicago and has become mainstream, whatever it is.
But the truth is NOTHING from San Fran does not play in Peoria, IL at all. Or St. Louis, Or the Twin Cities, Or Milwaukee, or NYC, or Boston, or DC, or Philly, or Cleveland.
Also last I checked, the first state and city to pass trans protections both involved the state of Minnesota, not California.
PS. Me and Melissa are known for not getting along. Same with goes for some other people on this board.
Oh yeah. By the way, I am blunt. I am not the type that will encourage you and tell you look good, if quite simply you don't come close to passing and will need FFS. It hurts, but guess what, one of the major problems of the community sometimes is lack of honesty. East coast women, and big city folks from the east be it Chicago, NYC, or DC are not known for being nice all the time to make you feel better. In fact it bothers us on some level at times that there is that level of dishonesty. I give honest opinions. It hurt you and you were fragile, but you were also fooling yourself. I am venomous at times as much as you were trying to build up self confidence, sometimes that is NOT a good thing, you were coming off as naive, thinking you looked better than you actually did (which I have to apply to Melissa as well). If you were the type where you didn't need FFS you would have been the first to find out because I would have said as much.
If you don't pass you don't pass. Its as simple as that. I am honest to the people who do, and the people who don't like yourself feel I am being mean. I am just being honest thats all. You post a picture and are not close to the stage of passing I will tell you thats the case.
For what's worth, SFO, the city itself is great, lived there 3 years, though its not as big a city in what it offers than NYC or even Montreal (I've been at least 60 days in 20 trips in New-York city since its so close to Montreal). San-Francisco Its kind of sleepy except very small areas. I lived in North beach (Telegraph hill, but that's just 2 blocks uphill), a bit touristy, but restaurants were good and there were some good bars and cafees. Good place for Jazz.
The weather in SFO is good but cool all your round; it can get on your nerve in the middle of the summer to put a sweater on ;-).
In the rest of the bay area, only Berkeley and certain parts of Oakland near lake Merit (stayed 3 months in one old house in what used to be the posh area of Oakland, and still is in a way) are decent to my eye. The south bay, sucks very hard. I worked in Freemont for many years and lived there for 6 months, I also lived in Mountain View 3 months. They're all undistinguished suburban nightmares.
Southern California! Well, I just can't believe anyone finds it a good place to live except for the weather. I hate suburbs with a passion and its all a suburban mess.
The Marin Headland,Tamalpais area Saratoga area are great for outdoors things, put people in the bay area work so hard to be able to afford living there that they never have time to enjoy it!!!! I worked 80 hours as senior engineer over there.
Anyway, for eyebrows, it depends on your face, if you've got strongly defined eyes, nose, a fleshy mouth, high cheekbones and a high forehead, do not make your eyebrows small in width, the largest width should be at least half the size of your pupil tapering slowly to nothing in a kind of Nike logo thing ;). If you have not very define brow ridge, low ridge nose, a low forehead and small lips, you need smaller eyebrows.
Natural, larger eyebrows have been in vogue for 2-3 years. Very thin eyebrows haven't been in since the early 80's, so avoid it at all cost.
Quote from: Amy T. on December 02, 2007, 06:13:29 PMyou DEFINATELY need FFS to just pass. No getting around it.
I call bull->-bleeped-<-.
Give 'mones a few months, pluck your eyebrows work on your voice, style your hair nicely and most people can pass ok even if they won't be winning any beauty contests, some women have brow ridges some have large chins, some natal women even fail to pass consistently, the easiest way to pass is to just let go and get on with it.
Hey, I think your both wrong!
HEHE
YOu need to give HRT some time to work.
Though, it can't do miracles.
If after 6 months minimum most people still sir
you, then FFS could be a possibility.
I waited 5 months. I already passed at least 90%,
but I knew some things would bottered me so
I fixed them for thing I could, see tread
Can you live life as target gender without passing
for example of HRT and FFS.
Quote from: Mawd on December 12, 2007, 08:19:16 AM
Give 'mones a few months, pluck your eyebrows work on your voice, style your hair nicely and most people can pass ok even if they won't be winning any beauty contests, some women have brow ridges some have large chins, some natal women even fail to pass consistently, the easiest way to pass is to just let go and get on with it.
i'm out and about after four months on HRT, breasts are starting to grow, and some people are really nice to me. other people are looking at me like i'm a mental patient. i wanted to wait a little longer before coming out to the general public, but i can't stand men's clothes, especially the shoes.
Quote from: Amy T. on December 12, 2007, 03:57:29 AM
If you don't pass you don't pass. Its as simple as that. I am honest to the people who do, and the people who don't like yourself feel I am being mean. I am just being honest thats all. You post a picture and are not close to the stage of passing I will tell you thats the case.
I get it, but in the end, there's apparently much more to passing than evaluating static facial features, including body shape, expressions and gestures, how one moves and stands, and a myriad of things I doubt we're even conscious of.
I don't pass in photos. Hence my not posting any. But if I DID post them, and everyone pointed out that I don't pass and MUST have FFS, I'd never leave the house. I'd still be sitting inside, scared and hopeless... instead of getting OUT THERE and enjoying my new life where hey, guess what? I seem to pass pretty darn well ;)
Much to my surprise, I DO apparently pass for the most part, but as a living and breathing woman, rather than a headshot. And I still say that's the only thing that matters in the end - go out and see what happens. If you're still getting sirred, hate it and can't wait any longer, than sure, FFS is a fine option. But I'd hate to see people getting FFS *before* finding out how they do in Real Life simply because their static photos received bad reviews here.
I mean seriously, ya gotta ask yourself who you're trying to impress? Who are you trying to pass with? A support forum for gender variants? Or the public where you need to LIVE your life?
~Kate~
Oh, honesty is one thing, Amy. But being a tactless brat about it is another.
I don't lie to myself. You think you're telling me something I'm not already acutely aware of? Like I don't look in the mirror and go "blech"? This is the problem with your "honesty", it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. It just reminds me of a wound I'm twenty grand short of healing. I come here looking for tips on coping in the meantime, not getting salt rubbed into it.
I try to cling to and emphasize the few feminine qualities I have in my face, which are actually quite lovely. It sounds to me like you're just speaking from experience.
And I appreciate that. Suffice to say, however, I seem to be taking this much better than you. Normally I wouldn't have given a crap, but after losing my dad only a couple months prior, I was in a bit of a vulnerable state.
Seriously, all this talk of trends is making me want to vomit. It's pretty shallow. I think I'm just going to delete the thread if it continues.
~ BB
Quote from: Keira on December 12, 2007, 08:57:38 AM
If after 6 months minimum most people still sir
you, then FFS could be a possibility.
I waited 5 months. I already passed at least 90%
I don't think you can generalize this. The effective period could be anywhere from months to years. In my case, it took 18 months of HRT (and several laser sessions) before I stopped hearing sir. If I'd thought I had to have satisfactory results within only 6 months, I'd have become suicidal when it didn't happen. Many people definitely need to hold out for longer than that!
hi blair, julie here. you don't know me as i'm new to the site
first, i'd like to say that i know what it is to go thru the holidays when you've lost someone you loved so much.
It poisons everything.
And i know what it feels like when the mirror can't show you the face you have and see inside yourself. it's not really about passing.
To the brutally honest among us, i just want to say that brutal honesty isn't being honest. It's just being brutal.
this group is great, by the way : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ffs-support/ . I belong to it, and i think you can get some of the most up-to-date info there. the girls there, by the way, are beginning to become a bit perturbed at the prices that are being charged lately.
Also,this site has been getting some attention lately : http://www.genderways.com/en/index.htm
their prices look great, and definitely within your budget, but i would investigate them further (i'm going to check 'em out on the web, try to find some of their clients, see what they say)
But must of all, i want to say that i'm proud of you.
I'm proud that you have the courage to whine when you need to, cry when you need to, and to hollar out when despair takes over.
I'm proud that you have the strength to be the woman you are.
I'm happy for you that you are young, and you have every right to want to be the woman you were meant to be as soon as humanly possible.
We are ALL WOMEN here. We are WOMEN with the most horrible woman problem imaginable. Remember, it kills A LOT OF US.
Don't let it kill you, honey.
And let us all remember that the world is a hard enough place for us. lets not kill our own.
Blair, you can cry on my shoulder any time you want. and i hope that i can cry on your's too.
I'm saying this to all of you now. if you need someone to whine to, and don't want to be attacked for it, whine to me. I won't try to fix you.
But i promise to listen to you, and maybe cry along with you.
in the mean time, blair, move yourself out of your head, and down into your heart.
when you're ready, get up, dance, spin around until you're dizzy. shake your ass.
And let your love embrace the girl child that you are.
God bless, be save.
Julie
Blair, you heard from peeps from both sides of the argument, and really, who are you going to believe?
Nero and Kristi, who both said you have good looks,
or _______, who just might be PMSing this week?
one thing i found out is that i like myself much more now that i've come out, and that drastically changes your facial expression. i look dreadful when i'm all gloomy, but kinda cute when i'm being friendly to myself.
-ell
Quote from: Blair on December 12, 2007, 10:44:48 AM
Oh, honesty is one thing, Amy. But being a tactless brat about it is another.
I don't lie to myself. You think you're telling me something I'm not already acutely aware of? Like I don't look in the mirror and go "blech"? This is the problem with your "honesty", it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. It just reminds me of a wound I'm twenty grand short of healing. I come here looking for tips on coping in the meantime, not getting salt rubbed into it.
I try to cling to and emphasize the few feminine qualities I have in my face, which are actually quite lovely. It sounds to me like you're just speaking from experience.
And I appreciate that. Suffice to say, however, I seem to be taking this much better than you. Normally I wouldn't have given a crap, but after losing my dad only a couple months prior, I was in a bit of a vulnerable state.
Seriously, all this talk of trends is making me want to vomit. It's pretty shallow. I think I'm just going to delete the thread if it continues.
~ BB
girls can be so cruel to each other. Blair, my dear, you are already lovely. I understand about your need to change some aspects of your appearance. There are very few TS who are completely satisifed with the looks they were born with.
You were blessed with the strong, distinctive features similar to those of Brooke Shields, Kathy Ireland, Denise Richards, and Sharon Stone.
It would be a tragedy if you changed much.
Some cats here have green eyes, I'm afraid.
Hi Nero and all, I agree with you Nero, Blair is a good looking girl and sometimes we can be our own worst critic and thus we already know what need fixin or not. But we also all need some positive support and give out positive suggestions when asked for. I do pray that all will turn out well for Blair.
Cindy
Women like you are the reason I come to this site. Thank you!
~ BB
I said she had the chin-jaw that looks a lot like Paris Hilton or Micha Barton (I think she's closer to Micha). But, who want to say they look like Paris Hilton even if I consider her beautiful.
I just came across this picture of Jemima Khan on the Daily Mail site, in the '90s she was one of Britain's glamour girls, well as this pic shows she has a bigger jaw than half the men in the world--and is nevertheless considered a glamorous woman. Something to think about!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2007%2F12_02%2Fp74jemimakhanDM_228x808.jpg&hash=a984fce761ccf66ba2e63e11c6e42cb30ba98d4c)
Actually she doesn't have a bigger jaw because her
jaw is not vertically high. That makes a big difference
in how massive the jaw looks.
The gender marker is
not jaw width, but jaw height. Blair's chin is
not high, so there's no problem there at all.
Sorry, I don't get what you mean about height. Could you explain? All I can see is, Jemima has a very masculine looking jaw... and it doesn't get in the way of her image.
Her vertical height of her chin and the nose to lip distance is within female range. In males, both are larger. In most males, its significantly larger and that's what really indicates the size of of the jaw.
Look at these examples, Strong jaws yes, but imagine how bigger the jaw would be if the chin to bottom of nose distance was 25% longer like in most males!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chinadaily.com.cn%2Flifestyle%2F2007-01%2F11%2Fxin_2301041116360591626042.jpg&hash=fe5bc9cb3581ff058219c812829043f4c8811d84)
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fus.movies1.yimg.com%2Fmovies.yahoo.com%2Fimages%2Fhv%2Fphoto%2Fmovie_pix%2Fmgm%2Foriginal_sin%2Fangelina_jolie%2Fsinpre5.jpg&hash=296cd249459031c792594750fa22a21a1dca2759)
Keira Knightley
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fz.about.com%2Fd%2Fbeauty%2F1%2F0%2FO%2Fl%2Fkeiraknightley.JPG&hash=6bf884ba0223411bb07227aaffb5f402ed5bbfbb)
Keira Knightley's jawline is almost exactly line mine, it not a coincidence I
took that name :-). She's slightly wider while my cheekbones are slightly more
prominent and high.
Guess who this is, very well known model, of 3 top models of the 90's.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fl.yimg.com%2Feur.yimg.com%2Fi%2Fuk%2Fne%2Fmoss3.jpg&hash=59431231210c4b8f4fcc2b3698635835798b3c8f)
As you see, and I said, it doesn't matter how wide the jaw is if the the bottom of nose to chin length is same as bottom of nose to glabella (line between eyebrows). This is a well known esthetics standard. The forehead should be 1/3, the lower jaw 1/3, and the mid face 1/3.
Hi Keira, do you have any North American Native background in the family? Just curious, I have some Iroquois back ground and I do have prominent cheek bones.
Cindy
Quote from: Kate on December 03, 2007, 02:55:44 PM
Quote from: melissa90299 on December 03, 2007, 08:08:18 AM
I still don't get it when people with obviously male features claim they "pass" so well. Perhaps, in whatever locale they live in, people haven't learned how to play "Spot the ->-bleeped-<-."
Wow, we live in very, very different worlds Melissa. I'm beginning to see why we disagree so much on certain things. I don't think I'd be able to survive out there. I know you think I'm delusional, and maybe out there I WOULD be, but here... how I am, and how I approach all this makes sense and fits me into my world around me here. But I guess it might not work at all in your context.
I can't imagine living in a world where TSism, trans-rights, progressive-issues, gender-bending.... all that stuff is on the forefront of everyone's minds. It's just not like that where I live. No one even THINKS about it. No one is looking for transsexuals. The category doesn't even exist. There's no contest or focus on passing other than being congruent enough to not raise a fuss and get on with life.
The irony (and I DO so love ironies!) is that you're showing me that it's actually BETTER to live in a restrictive, regressive, binary, male-or-female environment. People here don't WANT me to be "transsexual" - they need me to be either male of female to fit into their tidy little binary world, and once you cross a certain threshold, they seem to be willing to ignore your biological history and slot you into your target sex.
Funny how curses keep turning into blessings...
~Kate~
Seriously kate that was perfectly put. I can totally identify with that as I live in "Montucky" and that is definately most peoples frame of mind. Cows and horses included. :laugh: Oh PS I still need to do a formal introduction which ill get to tomorrow.
Oh, By the way blair without going to in depth into previous posts. May I ask how long you've been on hormones and are you on the right dosage etc.
Quote from: Hypatia on December 12, 2007, 09:06:55 PM
I just came across this picture of Jemima Khan on the Daily Mail site, in the '90s she was one of Britain's glamour girls, well as this pic shows she has a bigger jaw than half the men in the world--and is nevertheless considered a glamorous woman. Something to think about!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2007%2F12_02%2Fp74jemimakhanDM_228x808.jpg&hash=a984fce761ccf66ba2e63e11c6e42cb30ba98d4c)
IMO this woman looks like a man. She would probably be assumed to be a ->-bleeped-<- where I live. At one time, I was very pretty but with male features. I used to get hit on all the time. I think a lot of men (and Lesbian) like masculine pretty faces. Although I didn't get "sir" before my facial work, I know I pass a lot better as there are a lot of subtle things that happen that didn't happen before (for instance, strangers telling me that I was pretty, what they were saying is "You are really pretty FOR A MAN!) that tell me people are accepting me as a natal female rather than a ->-bleeped-<- with a good presentation.
I think that Blair is very attractive a lot like the pre-me, but she will have hard time ever passing unless she lives in one of these places where people are too backwards to know what a transexual looks like.
Quote from: ell on December 12, 2007, 09:12:25 AM
Quote from: Mawd on December 12, 2007, 08:19:16 AM
Give 'mones a few months, pluck your eyebrows work on your voice, style your hair nicely and most people can pass ok even if they won't be winning any beauty contests, some women have brow ridges some have large chins, some natal women even fail to pass consistently, the easiest way to pass is to just let go and get on with it.
i'm out and about after four months on HRT, breasts are starting to grow, and some people are really nice to me. other people are looking at me like i'm a mental patient. i wanted to wait a little longer before coming out to the general public, but i can't stand men's clothes, especially the shoes.
It'll change in time, it took me a fair while to work out what worked for me.
Quote from: Blair on December 12, 2007, 10:44:48 AM
Oh, honesty is one thing, Amy. But being a tactless brat about it is another.
I don't lie to myself. You think you're telling me something I'm not already acutely aware of? Like I don't look in the mirror and go "blech"? This is the problem with your "honesty", it doesn't tell me anything I don't already know. It just reminds me of a wound I'm twenty grand short of healing. I come here looking for tips on coping in the meantime, not getting salt rubbed into it.
I try to cling to and emphasize the few feminine qualities I have in my face, which are actually quite lovely. It sounds to me like you're just speaking from experience.
And I appreciate that. Suffice to say, however, I seem to be taking this much better than you. Normally I wouldn't have given a crap, but after losing my dad only a couple months prior, I was in a bit of a vulnerable state.
Seriously, all this talk of trends is making me want to vomit. It's pretty shallow. I think I'm just going to delete the thread if it continues.
~ BB
Seriously, going from your profile pic I'm certain you could pass decently well on a day to day basis, Amy is basically talking rubbish.
I know a ton of ->-bleeped-<-s who have prominent brow ridges deep voices massive chins and all kinds of masculine features but they pass because they just get on with it and be themselves and that shows, you get read by being self obsessive and most of all acting ->-bleeped-<-ish.
No one passes to start, if they do then they've spent a silly amount of money on surgery and voice training, it just comes in time from day to day experience, took me a couple of months, takes most people between that and a year.
"they need me to be either male of female to fit into their tidy little binary world, and once you cross a certain threshold, they seem to be willing to ignore your biological history and slot you into your target sex."
The great truth in the world is that people see what they want to see, they have ordered their world view, nothing is going to change that, and they have less than zero attention to detail. So they see what they have always seen - what they have sorted out, cataloged - in short, the stuff they have figured out (at least to their satisfaction). That's what they know, and they don't want to mess with what they know.
That's why its so easy to fool people, with magic, or with technology, or tricks - you are counting on them to see what they are counting on to see.
Let me use a pretty famous example. When you enter Disneyland (or world, or whatever) you come on Main Street U.S.A. You walk down that street, and you feel 'at home.' You feel its much more your scale - your pace of life, than that modern city or suburb you come from. It feels 'homey' as well as 'old-timey." The second is more a matter of style and fashion, but the first is very real. It comes from a theatre trick, Main Street USA is built at 3/4 scale on the first level, then 5/8 scale on up.
You see it as a full street, you don't even notice the trick. You know 'buildings' are such and so high and wide. You assume that those buildings are a standard size, and on a standard block. But you feel - and this is all about changing emotions - more 'at home' because it is, in fact, smaller.
So, if you are out and about, most people will - being all self absorbed and all - just take it all at face value. They are not interested in the broader questions, the philosophy of transexualism, the issues of gender in society or any of that. They say "male" or "female" and let it go at that.
I don't agree that people wilth massive brow ridge and jaw
pass if they just live their lives.
If you listen how people talk in their back, and I am in a position to do so,
(and Tink also), they get no respect, and life is very hard for them.
While many TS think they will never pass and its part of their Body image dysmorphism,
there are a good percentage that truly CANNOT pass no matter how much hormones they
take. Dismissing their existence doesn't make them not exist!!
That's not the case of Blair, though she's more a run of the milll TS who's afraid
to not pass when indeed she most likely will.
I freely admit I have only read a small fraction of this thread.
FFS is a highly personal decision. What I, Nero, Keira or anyone else thinks doesn't matter. It only matters what Blair thinks. Trying to convince somebody that they need or don't need FFS is incredibly counterproductive. I know this first hand. I knew that I had always disliked my image, but when I read about FFS and the incredible buzz about it on-line it only created havoc in my mind. It took me a while to sort out what I wanted because the idea that I would be doing it for others bothered me. In the end, when I took a big step back, it became an easy decision. I didn't do it for others, I did it for me. I'm happy to report that I now look like I should have and it was a huge confidence booster.
Blair: I would urge you to not come back to this thread. Further I would urge you not to talk about this with anyone period. The only conversation you should have about this is with yourself. Also I apologize if I'm repeating someone else, but have you checked out Dr Spiegel in Boston? His work is about on par with Dr O these days and he's about one third less cost-wise. Just so you know that I'm not biased, I'm a Dr O grad. The one big difference between the two is post-op care. Dr O has the Cocoon House, while Dr Spiegel has you check into a hotel.
Just one cautionary note Blair: It is quite common for the first month after surgery to be very stressfull. It takes that long for you to process your new image and to stop looking for "him". So be ready for that and be patient. Good luck!
BTW, I know what FFS is since I've done it (not the works, but 5-6 hours under is long enough!)
I think Blair is old enough to make up her own mind after collecting all the info from here and
elsewhere and probing her inner feelings.
Quote from: Keira on December 19, 2007, 08:52:21 PM
BTW, I know what FFS is since I've done it (not the works, but 5-6 hours under is long enough!)
I think Blair is old enough to make up her own mind after collecting all the info from here and
elsewhere and probing her inner feelings.
I am always amazed how much people debate FFS. Just look at this thread! All this public debate over what is a personal want/need/decision. Most of this debate in my opinion is useless! Who cares what actress has these features or that! FFS is basically about reducing male markers on a face so you look more like you should have. Notice I didn't say "pretty". That's the problem about obsessive discussions like these. They tend to build unrealistic expectations.
FFS is an individual decision. Everybody has their own unique path to walk. Threads like these tend to make the path harder to see.
Having a dissenting opinion is not unpatriotic.
My 2¢
Did I say you had no right to an opinion!
You just argued this topic was useless when its Blair who first asked the question?
Who am I to judge why she did or what she'll do with the answer.
You can read whatever other thread you choose. Discussing a threads worth
is (a meta discussion) more useless (if there is an hierachy or uselessness ::)
than this subject that's for sure.
"All this public debate over what is a personal want/need/decision."
But in our society, 'wants' and 'needs' are funded very differently. Hence the problem. And, at what point (now or in the future) will ffs be 'needed' as part of a transition"? Because then it becomes an insurance/health care coverage debate about who is going to pay, and who is going to benefit.
I got to go with Keira on the debating of a merits of any particular thread when there are millions, if not billions of threads that demand that before this one gets it. Within the context of the site, the question as a post is acceptable.
Quote from: tekla on December 20, 2007, 04:07:46 AM
there are millions, if not billions of threads that demand that before this one gets it.
I agree. I will absolutely not post in this thread!
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Keira on December 19, 2007, 03:59:39 PM
I don't agree that people wilth massive brow ridge and jaw
pass if they just live their lives.
If you listen how people talk in their back, and I am in a position to do so,
(and Tink also), they get no respect, and life is very hard for them.
While many TS think they will never pass and its part of their Body image dysmorphism,
there are a good percentage that truly CANNOT pass no matter how much hormones they
take. Dismissing their existence doesn't make them not exist!!
That's not the case of Blair, though she's more a run of the milll TS who's afraid
to not pass when indeed she most likely will.
I'm not saying that everyone can and will pass i'm just saying that most people could pass well enough if they just acted like a natal woman who simply looked like that by chance would, plenty of natal women look very masculine, if you spent any time in yorkshire it seems to be the preferred look with allot of women.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.dontstayin.com%2F7b%2Fdd%2F7bdd5dc0-5d8a-4202-80a1-2ae769a30287.jpg&hash=625b3f1fe1ef0a78d3d21d96bed5c75b19614d80)
(unflattering pic to prove the point)
This is lisa one of my girlfriends, she's 6'2 has a bit of a brow ridge, a mohawk and her jaw line ain't exactly dainty nor is her nose. She passes better than I do and hasn't been read in years because she simply does not attract attention as a transsexual only as a butch dyke which she is.
Most ->-bleeped-<-s can't just let go and get on with it, they work themselves silly obsessing over things and it frankly shows, nevermind the number who just have no dress sense and wear what they see that they like on other women not what works on them. I much prefer lisa's style of dress however more feminine clothes tend to suit me better, allot of ->-bleeped-<-s seem to be completely incapable of thinking on this level and again it shows.
Quote from: Mawd on December 20, 2007, 12:22:00 PMMost ->-bleeped-<-s can't just let go and get on with it, they work themselves silly obsessing over things and it frankly shows, nevermind the number who just have no dress sense and wear what they see that they like on other women not what works on them. I much prefer lisa's style of dress however more feminine clothes tend to suit me better, allot of ->-bleeped-<-s seem to be completely incapable of thinking on this level and again it shows.
That's the point I was trying to make, but others seem to not get it. Obsessing only continues the cycle of living for others. Obsessing also gets you clocked for being nervous and looking for approval.
Relax and be you.
Mawd, its not because she's got a shaved head that she looks masculine, her jawline's round, chin round, not high, eyes large, no brow ridge, etc, etc. She also has a small build.
She would not for one instant be mistaken for a man unless she put a moustache on...
I''ve been involved with TS supports group for A LONG LONG TIME, and believe me,
for some, not amount of happy thought will help them unless they do FFS.
If they find an accepting environment, they may live a somewhat happy life, but
its not the life they wanted to live initially. You've got to talk to them
in therapy settings to find that out. Settling for second best is
a process that's not easy and I have immense compassion for them.
I don't know how people can judge someone's passableness solely by a photo. Pre-everything I put on make-up and a wig, took a photo and used it as an avatar on several mainstream forums. No one questioned that I was anything but female. Usually, when I read someone in 3D, it is something besides the way they look.
Quote from: Mawd on December 20, 2007, 12:22:00 PM
Quote from: Keira on December 19, 2007, 03:59:39 PM
I don't agree that people wilth massive brow ridge and jaw
pass if they just live their lives.
If you listen how people talk in their back, and I am in a position to do so,
(and Tink also), they get no respect, and life is very hard for them.
While many TS think they will never pass and its part of their Body image dysmorphism,
there are a good percentage that truly CANNOT pass no matter how much hormones they
take. Dismissing their existence doesn't make them not exist!!
That's not the case of Blair, though she's more a run of the milll TS who's afraid
to not pass when indeed she most likely will.
I'm not saying that everyone can and will pass i'm just saying that most people could pass well enough if they just acted like a natal woman who simply looked like that by chance would, plenty of natal women look very masculine, if you spent any time in yorkshire it seems to be the preferred look with allot of women.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs7.dontstayin.com%2F7b%2Fdd%2F7bdd5dc0-5d8a-4202-80a1-2ae769a30287.jpg&hash=625b3f1fe1ef0a78d3d21d96bed5c75b19614d80)
(unflattering pic to prove the point)
This is lisa one of my girlfriends, she's 6'2 has a bit of a brow ridge, a mohawk and her jaw line ain't exactly dainty nor is her nose. She passes better than I do and hasn't been read in years because she simply does not attract attention as a transsexual only as a butch dyke which she is.
Most ->-bleeped-<-s can't just let go and get on with it, they work themselves silly obsessing over things and it frankly shows, nevermind the number who just have no dress sense and wear what they see that they like on other women not what works on them. I much prefer lisa's style of dress however more feminine clothes tend to suit me better, allot of ->-bleeped-<-s seem to be completely incapable of thinking on this level and again it shows.
God I am not going to begin where this is offensive and stereotyping. FFS for many of us is not only beneficial with regards to dysphoria, but for passing as well.
The thing is I have had two consults with surgeons, but have state the same thing to me. Forehead and a rhinoplasty are pretty much a necessity. While chin and jaw contouring would help, but not that much and its mostly cosmetic. Guess what I am not getting...the jaw work. Its not always about beauty or ideals.
Also don't stereotype with clothing based on people in a learning phase. It takes awhile to figure out what works for a person. I don't know why...but sweaters and jeans work pretty well with me. Though I know people who wear stuff that I would not touch. I know what works for me though.
It is such a shocker that a private surgeon who you're paying is going to tell you you *need* surgery.
I'm very sorry if you're unable to present convincingly as a woman, I couldn't possibly comment as to why as I don't know you but what I do know is that I know allot of TS's and even a few natal women who visually look 100% male in the face however due to how they act and present they are taken as female. It really is not that hard.
Hell I've been essentially off T blockers for the last 6 months or so (just got back in) and I still passed fine through that time.
Mawd, you're right, you don't know other how other people are.
Why not comment on what you know instead of making broad generalisations.
Some TS women WILL NOT PASS as women no matter how they act,
for some, its OK, they can live with that, but for others iits hell.
When THEY tell me they're always sired and I look at them, and
I see why, well I can't deny reality and neither can they.
A good analogy, I've got some friends which has a french canadian parent,
a black jamaican parent who moved her in the 60's,
she's black but her culture is profoundly french canadian,
she acts, speaks, feel, like all the other french canadian, YET, she's constantly
assumed to be an outsider, she's assumed to speak english. It doesn't matter how she feels or
who she really is, people assume something else about her and she's discriminated like
she came "off the boat". Another girl in a fight with her even said to her that she should go back to her country. Well, her country is this country!!
So, she learns to live with it. like a unpassbale TS would, because she can't change anything
about this. In fact, many TS can change things through FFS, so she's worse off in a way.
I'm not proposing a blanket ban on FFS, if you have the money and want it then fair play to you, what I contest is the mentality that so many *need* it to pass which 90% of the time this is not the case.
If memory serves amy t basically admitted a while back that she was primarily transitioning to get a female body, this is not the reason I or most TS's I know transitioned they transitioned to be themselves socially which again if memory serves is something amy t does not care so much about, if this is her aim then sure a ->-bleeped-<- ton of surgery will get her what she wants however I don't think it's what'll solve most TS's issues.
Edited to remove personal suggestion
I'm not going to comment specificially on Amy,
she'll say whatever she wants to say on this.
Commenting on what you said.
AutoG, which a small minority of TS undoubtably are, is when you get off
seeing yourself as female. If there is no sexual component and
mostly a somatic dysphoria, I'm not sure it can be defined as TS since
the gender would only matter to you, and not others. Closer to BID I guess.
For now though, they are treated as other TS since the treatment is basicly the same.
Maybe there's a different genetic mechanism that
affect social and somatic dysphoria in the brain!
Gender and identity could be the result of the expression of hundreds of
interacting genes. We just don't know enough to really say anything about it.
Quote from: Mawd on December 24, 2007, 05:35:30 AM
I'm not proposing a blanket ban on FFS, if you have the money and want it then fair play to you, what I contest is the mentality that so many *need* it to pass which 90% of the time this is not the case.
If memory serves amy t basically admitted a while back that she was primarily transitioning to get a female body, this is not the reason I or most TS's I know transitioned they transitioned to be themselves socially which again if memory serves is something amy t does not care so much about, if you ask me that's just a wee bit autogynophilic, if this is her aim then sure a ->-bleeped-<- ton of surgery will get her what she wants however I don't think it's what'll solve most TS's issues.
Mawd I am not even begin to go in the reasons why that is offensive. I am not autogynophilic, because quite simply it does not exist, and even suggesting as much on top of all the other offensive things you have put forth so far is completely insensitive.
Even using the word autogynophilic on most other trans boards to describe somebody is a very quick way to be permanently banned. You really do not know how loaded that term is, and I suggest to you once again you do a little research before using it again. But wait, I will actually do that for you since you don't seem to have that ability in your obviously young little transphobic brain (nothing has suggested to me you are not transphobic).
You also should not be throwing out diagnosis since you are not my therapist. Autogyphilic may go well over in the backwards trans healthcare land of the UK, but here in the US, it is considered insulting or worse.
Even then you don't even quite understand what the word or diagnosis is, and everything has suggested to me that is the case.
You sure know how to make things devolve quickly Mawd. Lets see the use of the word ->-bleeped-<- in an insulting context, insulting some transwomens gender expression, calling somebody autogyphilic, which calls into question their identity by the way. I could go on. Wow. Julia Serano would be very proud of you. Wonderful young transsexual kid who think she knows all about the world and about me. Okay, since you won't do the research on your own and you have proven insulting to me once again let me do it for you, I pasted the text so everybody on this board gets it straight why never to call a woman autogyphialic, and why it is extremely insulting. I suggest reading through this CAREFULLY. Last I checked I don't have a paraphanalia, or was autogyphilic in the least, then again there is no such thing as autogyphilia TO BEGIN WITH. I suggest you don't throw out that term again to describe somebody, especially me, and yes, I will be insisting you be banned from this board, because you are the one digging up old graves.
At least I know the history of trans people. I can't say the same with you. There is some clear issues with transphobia and transmisogyny with you kid. Talk about coming off as ill informed and insulting.
(By the way mods. If you ban me for this you better well ban Mawd as well and permenantly. She has been told how insulting I find that term before and I think did it just to tick me off. Otherwise stay out of it. I consider what she said extremely insulting, you don't question a persons identity or insult them the way she did. She knows I find it insulting. You know of the situation last time. Now you are informed why nobody should be called "autogyphilic" on a trans board either. It questions their identity, especially those of us who KNOW the history. I was upset the way you handled it before, but now I am laying out the reasons why. Mawd should be banned for this and bringing it up again. She should have known better. Instead she is coming off now as not only transphobic, but also well, insulting to me personally. She is the one bringing up a personal insult, but she is also digging up one of the more heated moments of this board. This time she brought it up again, and she brought it up again in generally with a post that is blatently transphobic in its text.)
Also there is nothing autogyphialic with a women wanting to be comfortable with her body and her face. Last I checked transsexuality is a discomfort not with societal roles, but also physical body. This is not just about societal roles, its about congruity within society, but also with ones body. Thats not autogyphilic, thats reality for for many women with a past. If you don't understand its fine, but the truth is this isn't just a societal dysphoria like it is for you, many of us who would normally fall under the primary category....its an intense physical dysphoria as well. With me there is no sexual component, which is kind of required for autogyphilia which is described as a paraphanilia, its a societal and physical dysphoria. To me its quite clear you don't have the physical dysphoria that is as intense as somebody like me or tink, which despite our differences fall well within the primary category, with stopping hormones for six months and everything else you have suggested, you probably don't fall into that category, in fact I have a hard time figuring out what you are other then ill informed. Instead you seem very quick to label somebody where the physical dysphoria is a little more intense then yours as autogyphilic, even after being explained how insulting that word was to me and many in the community. Last I checked I am not autogyphilic, I am just a woman who wants to correct some things. If you can't get that and get others who are like that, don't insult them for it or call them autogyphilic. But for some of us having some sort of physical peace is just as important as assimilating with society, thats not autogyphilic, thats just being female, and getting the body and face to match who we are.
This is not some paraphanlia to me. I am not transitioning to be turned on by my own body. I am transitioning to be comfortable with it to some degree as well as integrate into society. This is not just about how society treats you, its also about being comfortable in your own skin. While you may be there, it takes more for some of us to get there. Thats not being autogyphilic, its just the reality of what transsexuality is.
Why autogyphilia is problematic:
http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/ ->-bleeped-<-.html
" ->-bleeped-<-": a disputed diagnosis
" ->-bleeped-<-" is a sex-fueled mental illness made up by Ray Blanchard. Blanchard defines it as "a man's paraphilic tendency to be sexually aroused by the thought or image of himself as a woman." [1]
Support for this disease model of gender variance is almost nonexistent, limited to a tiny online " ->-bleeped-<-" support group with fewer than 40 contributors out of a worldwide population of transwomen numbering in the millions. This support group was taken down in early 2005. The disease was also prominently featured in The Man Who Would Be Queen by J. Michael Bailey and has been heavily promoted by Anne Lawrence, a former anesthesiologist who has taken up "autogynephile" as a personal identity.
One of the key concepts in this model is the premise that everyone who is gender variant can be categorized based on one of two "male" sexual interests: homosexuality or paraphilia.
Among the few people who identify with this term, a significant number do not think this is what " ->-bleeped-<-" means. These people often interpret the word's Greek etymology quite literally and think it means an innocent and happy "love of oneself as a woman," or in apposition to a phobia. This is clearly not how the word is being used in the context of psychology or sexology, so we can dismiss comments from these people as irrelevant to the scientific debate.
Many mental health professionals and theorists question if this is a legitimate or scientifically useful descriptor. See parallels with other discredited illnesses below.
" ->-bleeped-<-" describes a paraphilia
Blanchard continues to describe this illness as "a distinct paraphilia" worthy of differential diagnosis, and an improvement in terminology over what his mentor Kurt Freund labeled "cross-gender fetishism." [2]
When Blanchard says this is a paraphilia, what does he mean?
"Paraphilia" is the clinical term used by psychologists for problematic sexual desire or behaviors involving:
nonhuman objects
the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one's partner
children or other nonconsenting persons. [3]
Note that "paraphilias" can be diagnosed even if the person has no subjective distress or impaired function. According to Ray Blanchard, " ->-bleeped-<-" is "a distinct paraphilia," but people with this disease are in the same clinical class as people who are attracted to animals, children, feces, etc.
In other words, proponents of this diagnosis are claiming that people express gender variance not only because they are aroused by possessing a certain body part, but also because they are sexually aroused by humiliating themselves or their loved ones, and that they get a sexual kick out of appearing in public as female, because they respond sexually to the responses of nonconsenting persons like strangers, coworkers and friends, in the same way an exhibitionist gets off by flashing people.
In fact, one of Blanchard and Bailey's theories is that paraphilias cluster, so if someone gender-variant is not attracted exclusively to men, they believe that person is far more likely to be sexually aroused by children, animals, etc.
Blanchard bases this on work he did not with transsexuals who had transitioned, but with anyone who came to his mental institution by force or choice to discuss a gender issue.
Blanchard's studies have never been repeated, and his ideas have been widely ignored until Anne Lawrence latched onto " ->-bleeped-<-" as a political identity. Since that time, Lawrence has been very busy trying to codify this spurious diagnosis as a legitimate descriptor.
" ->-bleeped-<-" describes a psychosexual pathology
In the same way that some gay people feel they are mentally ill, some people interested in transition consider themselves to be mentally ill. Unfortunately, in both cases, they do not think only they are mentally ill, but that all of us are.
The small number of people who agree with the established scientific denotation and strongly identify as having this mental illness frequently conflate the phenomenon with the diagnosis. They seem to think that people concerned about the term " ->-bleeped-<-" are claiming that the observed phenomena do not exist.
Clearly, some people have sexual fantasies about gender variance. When viewed as a psychosexual pathology, as Ray Blanchard views it, these fantasies may be thought of as a "paraphilia."
Parallels with other discredited illnesses
For gender-variant women, "paraphilia" may be the diagnostic equivalent of historic attempts to pathologize non-transsexual women's sexual behavior that fell outside of heteronormative expectations. In the way that these made-up diseases were seen to emanate from the sex organs, Blanchard and colleagues spend a great deal of time looking for clues about male sexual behavior in their genitalia.
It is interesting to note that in Blanchard's world, the heteronormative transwomen need to be separated from those whose erotic interests do not fit the "natural" model of sexual selection.
"Nymphomania"
As with " ->-bleeped-<-" and similar bogus sexual pathologies and diagnoses, "nymphomania" was created by a clinician. Carol Groneman, author of Nymphomania: A History (2000) reports that the concept of "nymphomania" was first laid out by the French physician Bienville in his 1771 treatise, Nymphomania , or a Dissertation Concerning the Furor Uterinus. Groneman's book is an excellent overview of how medical ideas about sexuality can affect the general population and professionals in other fields
Psychologists like Freud added more crackpot theorizing that remained widely held beliefs until Kinsey's report on female sexuality in 1953 showed that "nymphomania" and "hypersexuality" had no scientific basis.
Evolving views of nymphomania were reflected in the successive editions of the American Psychiatric Association's official guide to madness, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Nymphomania was listed as a "sexual deviation" in the first DSM, published in 1951; by DSM-III (1980) it had become a "psychosexual disorder," albeit a vaguely defined one. Sensing the winds of change, or maybe just having watched a few talk shows, the editors of DSM-III-R (revised third edition, 1987) dropped nymphomania and its equally quaint male counterpart, Don Juanism, and replaced them with "distress about a pattern of repeated sexual conquests or other forms of nonparaphilic [nondeviant] sexual addiction." In DSM-IV (1994) even sexual addiction was abandoned, perhaps because the non-gender-specific nature of the term laid bare the speciousness of the whole project
"Hysteria"
Like "nymphomania," the word "hysteria" is an imprecise term which is used both clinically and in everyday language. It is applied in various situations with different meanings. Similar to vague diagnoses like " ->-bleeped-<-," hysteria may describe a lack of self control over acts and emotions. It may describe morbid self-consciousness, anxiety or extravagant behavior. It also suggests the simulation of various disorders. This nebulous description allows nearly any behavior to be describes as "hysterical," as J. Michael Bailey has described transsexual women criticizing his book and his connections to neo-eugenicists.
Acute hysteria - subsumed in DSM IV as conversion (primarily physical) and dissociative (primarily mental) disorders - is the relatively abrupt appearance of an artifactual set of signs and symptoms that call attention to themselves.
Chronic hysteria - the form subsumed in DSM IV as somatization disorder or Briquet's syndrome - are characterized by habitual complaints of symptoms such as pains, faintness, abdominal cramping, nausea, coughing, shortness of breath that turn out to be groundless and artifactual.
This is a typical comment from someone who believes in the validity of an out of fashion diagnosis: "Hysteria is not disappearing but has taken on less conspicuous guises as people learn what can pass as disease today." One can expect that proponents of " ->-bleeped-<-" will see similar drift and attempt to shoehorn an ever-widening array of phenomena into an already nebulous diagnosis (using terms like "partial ->-bleeped-<-" etc.).
Hysteria has its roots in sexism, being derived etymologically from the Greek word for uterus. The uterus was also seen as the cause of "nymphomania" as well.
"Hystero-epilepsy"
A disease made up by famed neurologist Jean Marie Charcot. A skeptical student, Joseph Babinski, decided that Charcot had invented rather than discovered hystero-epilepsy. The patients had come to the hospital with vague complaints of distress and demoralization. Charcot had persuaded them that they were victims of hystero-epilepsy and should join the others under his care. Charcot's interest in their problems, the encouragement of attendants, and the example of others on the same ward prompted patients to accept Charcot's view of them and eventually to display the expected symptoms. These symptoms resembled epilepsy, Babinski believed, because of a municipal decision to house epileptic and hysterical patients together (both having "episodic" conditions). The hysterical patients, already vulnerable to suggestion and persuasion, were continually subjected to life on the ward and to Charcot's neuropsychiatric examinations. They began to imitate the epileptic attacks they repeatedly witnessed (Paul McHugh) .
"Ego-dystonic homosexuality"
The DSM-III committee and subcommittee charged with drafting the new manual (1976-78) settled on the diagnosis of ego-dystonic homosexuality , which, according to Dr. Jon Meyer, "...represented a compromise between those individuals whose clinical experience, interpretation of the data, and, perhaps, biases, led them to the conviction that homosexuality was a normal variant of sexual expression..." By the time DSM-III-R (revised version of DSM-III) came out in 1987, the tide had shifted again. The category of ego-dystonic homosexuality was eliminated. As DSM-III-R itself stated, "...the diagnosis...has rarely been used clinically, and there have been only a few articles in the scientific literature that use the concept..."
However, one could use the category of sexual disorder not otherwise specified to include cases that previously would have been called ego-dystonic homosexuality . Our present DSM-IV does not include homosexuality per se as a disorder, but still permits the diagnosis of "Sexual Disorder Not Otherwise Specified" for someone with "...persistent and marked distress about sexual orientation".
Note that like "ego-dystonic homosexuality," the diagnosis of " ->-bleeped-<-" is rarely used clinically, and there have only been a few articles in the scientific literature that use the concept.
"Partial ->-bleeped-<-"
One of the most laughable examples of the unscientific nature of this diagnosis is Blanchard's claims that cases of "partial ->-bleeped-<-" exist in order to explain phenomena that need to be shoehorned into the theory. This is about as valid as diagnosing someone with "partial cancer" or "partial paraphilia." The fact that this term was even introduced into the published literature suggests the general lack of rigor in journals devoted to sexual science.
Differential Diagnosis
" ->-bleeped-<-" proponents wish to see a differential diagnosis, meaning they want to separate gender-variant people into two distinct "illnesses." Although the axis of sexual preference is the most persistent, it is not the only one proposed.
Their logic follows a disease model of gender variance. Bailey calls this "lumping and splitting." As they explain, some disorders have similar symptoms. The clinician, therefore, in his diagnostic attempt, has to differentiate against disorders which need to be ruled out to establish a precise diagnosis.
Below are some other diagnoses sometimes suggested for gender-variant people:
Factitious Disorder /Munchausen syndrome by proxy
Somatoform disorder
Hypochondriasis
Conversion disorder
Somatization disorder Briquet's Syndrome
Pain associated with psychological factors
True medical or psychiatric illness related to presenting complaints
Differential diagnosis is appealing to some gender-variant people and practitioners who wish to separate people who transition into different groups.
It is my hunch that " ->-bleeped-<-" and differential diagnoses are especially appealing to those with a deep-seated homophobia. It seems rooted in the same motivations that some cross-dressing social groups use to exclude gay members. I will be discussing this theory in upcoming revisions.
" ->-bleeped-<-" is quackery
The pathologization of socially unacceptable erotic interests has a long history. As noted about, recent clinical diagnoses such as "ego-dystonic homosexuality" and "nymphomania" have fallen into disrepute. Many expect " ->-bleeped-<-" will be similarly discredited as a diagnosis in time.
In fact, the diagnosis is an example of quackery, which is defined as "overpromotion in the field of health."
Below is an example of how " ->-bleeped-<-" proponents like Ray Blanchard cannot separate the observed phenomena from the diagnosis:
"In the meantime, it is important to distinguish between the truth or falseness of theories about " ->-bleeped-<-", on the one hand, and the existence or nonexistence of " ->-bleeped-<-", on the other. The latter is also an empirical question, but it appears, at this point, to be settled." [2]
This conflation creates a false dilemma. Let's replace " ->-bleeped-<-" with another spurious diagnosis as an example:
"In the meantime, it is important to distinguish between the truth or falseness of theories about nymphomania, on the one hand, and the existence or nonexistence of nymphomania, on the other. The latter is also an empirical question, but it appears, at this point, to be settled."
Quacks like Blanchard used to say exactly this before "nymphomania" was discredited as a diagnosis or a scientifically useful descriptor. "Nymphomania" is not a legitimate diagnosis or classification simply because there are observable phenomena that fit the denotation or clinical criteria. Saying that "nymphomania" does not exist is not the same as saying women who are extraordinarily sexually active do not exist. Of course they exist. That doesn't mean that "nymphomania" exists, though. This is the primary problem with Blanchard's thinking.
Let's replace " ->-bleeped-<-" with another pseudoscientific concept that could be written by a similar type of quack:
"In the meantime, it is important to distinguish between the truth or falseness of theories about clairvoyance, on the one hand, and the existence or nonexistence of clairvoyance, on the other. The latter is also an empirical question, but it appears, at this point, to be settled."
Just because someone observes something that fits the criteria for clairvoyance does not settle the empirical question of whether it exists or not. That's not how science works. That's called confirmation bias, or less formally, "begging the question." Blanchard comes to a questionable conclusion (" ->-bleeped-<-" exists) based on an assumed premise (" ->-bleeped-<-" is a scientifically useful term).
What's wrong with Ray Blanchard's logic?
Blanchard reminds me of this retarded kid I knew when I was younger. In fact, let's call the retarded kid Ray. Ray worked at McDonald's, and when I'd see him there, Ray would look at me with amazement and say, "Wow! I see you every time you come here!"
Classic case of bad induction.
In other words, Ray assumed that he observed an amazing pattern based on unscientific assumptions. It did not occur to Ray that there were factors he had not considered, such as my visits when he was not working.
If Ray fancied himself a scientist (which he clearly isn't), he might take this confirmation bias one step further and give the phenomenon a name, like, say, McSynchronicity: the tendency for Ray to see Andrea every time she comes to McDonald's. He would start forming all sorts of theories about why this exists and make it a bit of an obsession. After all, he "discovered" McSynchronicity, so he wants to defend the idea and get credit far and wide for his amazing observation. Heck, he might even convince a couple of others on his shift who share his level of scientific understanding: Mike over on the griddle and Anne over on the deep fryer.
This is textbook quackery and pseudoscience, but it's hard to bring people like Ray back to their senses once they have "discovered" something and feel a need to protect it.
I would speak slowly to Ray and try to explain that McSynchronicity doesn't really exist as a phenomenon. Ray would indignantly retort:
"In the meantime, it is important to distinguish between the truth or falseness of theories about McSynchronicity, on the one hand, and the existence or nonexistence of McSynchronicity, on the other. The latter is also an empirical question, but it appears, at this point, to be settled."
I would say, "Ray, nothing has been settled. The phenomena you observed empirically do not validate the existence of the classification." But then I'd remember that Ray is retarded, so I'd have to think a little to come up with a really simple explanation. That's where I am right now.
So in the meantime, I stroll into McDonald's and Ray exclaims, "See, another case of McSynchronicity!" I just smile and sigh, and continue thinking about ways to explain this so even Ray and his coworkers can grasp it.
" ->-bleeped-<-" is based on interlocking pseudoscientific claims and methodologies
Real discoveries of phenomena contrary to all previous scientific experience are very rare, while fraud, fakery, foolishness, and error resulting from overenthusiasm and delusion are all too common. (Cromer 1993)
The McSynchronicity example above is a simplistic description of several established phenomena common to pseudoscientists and quacks. Empiricists tend to emphasize the tentative and probabilistic nature of knowledge, while rationalists tend to be dogmatic and assert they have found a method to discover absolutely certain knowledge.
Some pseudoscientific theories can't be tested because they are so vague and malleable that anything relevant can be shoehorned to fit the theory, e.g., the the theory of multiple personality disorder,"partial ->-bleeped-<-," or the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator ®.
As a proud member of QuackWatch, I have helped debunk a number of pseudoscientific claims that affect the transgendered community. In the case of Blanchard, the primary quackery involves:
As Dr. Madeline Wyndzen points out in a psychology trade newsletter [4] , Blanchard's key empirical findings:
1. have never been replicated
2. failed to include control groups of typically-gendered women
3. failed to covary the acknowledged age-difference from ANOVA
4. drew conclusions about causality from entirely observational data
Plethysmography
A plethysmograph is a primitive "lie detector" attached to the genitals. It is also one of Ray Blanchard's "scientific" tools, since it was invented by his mentor Kurt Freund.
I have found over my years of exposing medical fraud and quackery that inventors are frequently the most tenacious quacks. Not only do they want to herald their invention, they are also most likely to make scientific errors when fitting the device or concept to use. Because they see their reputation as tied closely with the reception of their device or their writings, and because many inventors have a certain eccentricity and sense of individualism, they will rarely back down from a position, even when they have proven to be frauds. Fortunately, we don't have to convince the quack he is wrong (which is frequently impossible); we only have to convince everyone else the quack is wrong.
For more on this, please see Plethysmograph: a disputed device.
Testimonials and anecdotal evidence
This is classic advertising trick: watch any informercial, and you will see all sorts of glowing testimonials and anecdotes supporting the promotional claims being made. Testimonials are always unscientific and are of little value in establishing the legitimacy of the claims they are put forth to support.
Bailey's book and Lawrence's essays are primarily supported by anecdotal evidence (or "narratives" as Anne Lawrence calls them). Quacks typically use testimonials which only back their side of the story. Lawrence and Bailey only present anecdotal evidence that supports their point. See the discussion of bias below. This pseudoscientific evidence is further aided by communal reinforcement: the process by which a claim becomes a strong belief through repeated assertion by members of a community.
Bias
One of the most insidious problems with the science proposed by proponents of " ->-bleeped-<-" is the profound bias inherent in their unproven assumptions.
These types of bias are also sometimes called hidden persuaders:
"Technically these hidden persuaders can be described as 'statistical artifacts and inferential biases' (Dean and Kelly 2003: 180)." Dean and Kelly argue that hidden persuaders explain why many astrologers continue to believe in the validity of astrology despite overwhelming evidence that astrology is bunk.
Psychologist Terence Hines, who has explored many varieties of hidden persuaders (Hines 2003), blames them for the continued use by psychologists of such instruments as the Rorschach test, despite overwhelming evidence that the test is invalid and useless:
"Psychologists continue to believe in the Rorschach for the same reasons that Tarot card readers believe in Tarot cards, that palm readers believe in palm reading, and that astrologers believe in astrology: the well-known cognitive illusions that foster false belief. These include reliance on anecdotal evidence, selective memory for seeming successes, and reinforcement from colleagues."
This bias takes many forms, and the major problems are outlined below:
Experimenter effect
Research has demonstrated that the expectations and biases of an experimenter can be communicated to experimental subjects in subtle, unintentional ways, and that these cues can significantly affect the outcome of the experiment ( Rosenthal 1998 ). i.e., people who wanted free treatment presented to Ray and told him what he wanted. People who think Anne Lawrence is a dangerously disturbed psychotic did not fill out a questionnaire.
Ad hoc hypothesis
Bailey, Blanchard and Lawrence explain away facts that refute the hypothesis: i.e., those who disagree are lying, and those whose stories match the model are open and honest.
Cognitive dissonance
This theory of human motivation that asserts that it is psychologically uncomfortable to hold contradictory cognitions. Particularly confusing for Bailey and Lawrence are people who are clearly quite open about their erotic interests (like Deirdre McCloskey) but do not consider " ->-bleeped-<-" to be a valid diagnosis. This is clearly incomprehensible to them; Bailey notes that Deirdre shows "all the hallmarks of ->-bleeped-<-" and Anne Lawrence asks (apparently rhetorically) can someone explain how this isn't ->-bleeped-<-?
This is equivalent to someone who believe "nymphomania" is a valid diagnosis. Because they cannot comprehend the possibility that the condition does not exist, their inability colors every observation they make.
Confirmation bias
This refers to a type of selective thinking, where favorable evidence is selected for remembrance and focus, while unfavorable evidence for a belief is ignored.
A pseudoscientist tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs (supportive data), and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs. Bailey, Blanchard and Lawrence do this by claiming those who disagree are lying, or by presenting only evidence that supports their arguments.
This type of biased thinking can be quite subtle. Some pseudoscientists seriously consider data contrary to their beliefs, but are much more critical of such data than they are of supportive data.
Pathological science
Nobel Prize winner Irving Langmuir described pathological science as "the science of things that aren't so", using as examples the Davis-Barnes Effect, N-rays, mitogenetic rays, the Allison Effect, extrasensory perception, and flying saucers (Langmuir 1968).
Langmuir offered six characteristics of pathological science :
The magnitude of the effect is substantially independent of the intensity of the causative agent.
The effect is of a magnitude that remains close to the limits of detectability; or, many measurements are necessary because of the very low statistical significance of the results.
It makes claims of great accuracy.
It puts forth fantastic theories contrary to experience.
Criticisms are met by ad hoc excuses.
The ratio of supporters to critics rises up to somewhere near 50 percent and then falls gradually to oblivion.
The problem of induction
This gets into heady philosophy of science type stuff that's lost and Bailey and friends. For a brief formulation of the problem of induction we can turn to Born, who writes: '. . . no observation or experiment, however extended, can give more than a finite number of repetitions'; therefore, 'the statement of a law - B depends on A - always transcends experience. Yet this kind of statement is made everywhere and all the time, and sometimes from scanty material. ' 1
In other words, the logical problem of induction arises from (1) Hume's discovery (so well expressed by Born) that it is impossible to justify a law by observation or experiment, since it 'transcends experience'; (2) the fact that science proposes and uses laws 'everywhere and all the time'. (Like Hume, Born is struck by the 'scanty material', i.e. the few observed instances upon which the law may be based.) To this we have to add (3) the principle of empiricism which asserts that in science only observation and experiment may decide upon the acceptance or rejection of scientific statements, including laws and theories.
These three principles, (1), (2), and (3), appear at first sight to clash; and this apparent clash constitutes the logical problem of induction.
See my earlier discussion of McSynchronicity for this problem described in lay terms.
Apophenia
Dr. Martina Belz-Merk notes "There is currently a controversial debate concerning whether unusual experiences are symptoms of a mental disorder, if mental disorders are a consequence of such experiences, or if people with mental disorders are especially susceptible to or even looking for these experiences."
Forer effect (also called subjective validation)
Forer found that people tend to accept vague and general personality descriptions as uniquely applicable to themselves without realizing that the same description could be applied to just about anyone. The "symptoms" and "hallmarks" of " ->-bleeped-<-" continue to spread to explain away inconsistencies.
Argument to ignorance
This is a logical fallacy of irrelevance occurring when someone claims that something is true only because it hasn't been proven false. Bailey is especially fond of this one.
For more information
Below are some additional resources on this topic. Please see my essay A defining moment in our history for more on disease models of gender identity in historical context.
Draft version of 20 May 2004.
References:
1. In J. M. Bailey (Chair), Phenomenology and classification of male-to-female transsexualism. Symposium conducted at the meeting of the International Academy of Sex Research , Paris. June, 2000. Slide 38.
2. Blanchard R. Origins of the concept of ->-bleeped-<-. Published online February 2004 via http://www. ->-bleeped-<-.org/origins.htm
3. "Paraphilia." Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, version IV-TR.
4. Wyndzen MH. A personal and scientific look at a mental illness model of ->-bleeped-<-. APA Division 44 Newsletter, Spring 2004, p. 3.
Recommended reading:
• LINK: " ->-bleeped-<-": New Medical Thinking or Old Stereotype? by Dr. Katherine Wilson
• LINK: Bailey, Blanchard, Lawrence and the fallacy of " ->-bleeped-<-" by Jed Bland
• LINK: Everything You Never Wanted to Know About " ->-bleeped-<-" but Were Afraid You had to Ask by Dr. Madeline Wyndzen
• LINK: " ->-bleeped-<-" & Ray Blanchard's Mis-Directed Sex-Drive Model of Transsexuality by Dr. Madeline Wyndzen
• LINK: A personal and scientific look at a mental illness model of ->-bleeped-<- by Madeline H. Wyndzen, Ph.D. (PDF: requires reader)
• LINK: " ->-bleeped-<-" and disability
• LINK: " ->-bleeped-<-" links compiled by Dr. Madeline Wyndzen
Further reading:
• LINK :" ->-bleeped-<-": Views of one non-transitioner•
• LINK: BC on Gender: " ->-bleeped-<-" by BC Holmes
• LINK: Men Trapped In Men's Bodies: an Introduction to the Concept of " ->-bleeped-<-" by Dr. Anne Lawrence (taken offline in 2004)
• LINK: Sexuality and Transsexuality: A New Introduction to " ->-bleeped-<-" by Dr. Anne Lawrence
• LINK: The " ->-bleeped-<-" Resource ( ->-bleeped-<-.org) by Lisanne Anderson
• LINK: Janice Raymond and " ->-bleeped-<-" by Dr. Rebecca Allison
Most people don't understand how to construct logical arguments and
certainly don't understand that theories are only worth their salt if they can
predict the world, not just describe it. The theory if valid extend to in between
data points, if it fails there, the theory is flawed. Bailey and company don't
even come close to being able to predict anything; they cram anything
into their mold no matter if it fits or not.
They are better at creating myths than creating science.
O please, don't paint Charcot with such a nasty brush. Unlike Freud he didn't flinch from childhood sexual abuse of girls. He did STAY with his patients and didn't start some BS penis-envy crap about a Greek myth to maintain his standing in the Academy. Charcot stuck to sexual abuse=hysteria. Can't condemn people for not living in the 21st century when they are born in the mid-1800s.
Yep, I actually read all that.
A good essay, Amy. Just a bit long. But I really doubt it will change a mind that doesn't feel open to being changed. There is only so much one can do in that regard. And if the mind isn't open ....
Please everyone. You are entitled to opinions. If they are personal though, please leave them out. Disagreement is natural. But attack the argument, not the person making it. 'K? Thanks.
Nichole
Amy:write a book, and point us at the blurb...
R :police:
To be sure I have heard about enough different kinds of phobias and trans this or that in my life I could write several books about them but I really don't need to add another one to the list right now.
Cindy
i have a phobia of translipids...
R :angel:
Transodountaures???? A transsexual dinosaur with a sore butt.
Cindy
Quote from: tekla on December 19, 2007, 01:21:42 PMLet me use a pretty famous example. When you enter Disneyland (or world, or whatever) you come on Main Street U.S.A. You walk down that street, and you feel 'at home.' You feel its much more your scale - your pace of life, than that modern city or suburb you come from. It feels 'homey' as well as 'old-timey." The second is more a matter of style and fashion, but the first is very real. It comes from a theatre trick, Main Street USA is built at 3/4 scale on the first level, then 5/8 scale on up.
Way off topic, but seeing a Coca Cola delivery truck driving down Main Street is kinda jarring and slightly surreal. Walking down the street without another soul in sight feels a little odd too.
what has quote or reply to do with the price of fish?
R :police:
The same price as Cydonia white tea freshly picked by pygmies on Mars.
Cindy
Its about seeing what you want to see, (what you've been trained to expect) instead of seeing what is really there.
Quote from: cindybc on December 27, 2007, 05:10:37 AM
The same price as Cydonia white tea freshly picked by pygmies on Mars.
Cindy
*smile* Or starships aflame off of the rings of Cyrax, a planet in the Orion cluster.
And of talking with Oryxa until the second sun of Cythera had gone beneath the horizon and it felt as though the entire city of Dunnarraue could hear our whispers falling through the leaves of the pyramid trees that surrounded the terrace where we spoke.
Quote from: tekla on December 27, 2007, 09:32:47 AM
Its about seeing what you want to see, (what you've been trained to expect) instead of seeing what is really there.
There's a film over things, only perceptible to the perceptive.
I suppose there is a film over things, but I was thinking more along the lines of the level of intentional manipulation that goes on. So subtle you don't notice it, but real enough to affect you. But, if you know it, its something you can use. You can count on people - most of the time - to see what they expect to see, not what is really there.
Hi Nichole
What about the two golden suns of Andreus in the purple Phoenix Galaxy. That's way beyond Andromeda galaxy but traveling in energy form through a worm hole or star-gate you can get there the day before yesterday and shake hands with yourself. "hee, hee, hee, I liked your quotes, neat-o. ;D
Cindy
Quote from: cindybc on December 27, 2007, 11:14:17 AM
Hi Nichole
What about the two golden suns of Andreus in the purple Phoenix Galaxy. That's way beyond Andromeda galaxy but traveling in energy form through a worm hole or star-gate you can get there the day before yesterday and shake hands with yourself. "hee, hee, hee, I liked your quotes, neat-o. ;D
Cindy
As I did yours. *smile* Hippie girls. *sigh* Who perhaps have read much, too much, of Harlan Ellison, Ursula LeGuin, Patricia McKillip and Samuel Delaney?
Or have you, as well, met Oryxa and listened long into the half-day of her wisdom? Walked under the steepled transepts and glittering sparked glass in the Ionized Cathedrals in Stornofield? *sigh*
Would Mother ship me there again. Or perhaps a meadow by the strand of the Nether Ocean of Mists in Rokecammon where the starfin-fish dance among the sea coral chorales in a mixture of light and sound.
Dreams, ....
Beyond Andromeda, she caressing the dragon's snout and soaking up the glitter from its jeweled hide.
Hi Nichole W.
Did you know that this transition I have lived as Cindy for the past seven years was not my first transition. During the Hippy years between 1962 and 1964 I had long butt length hair I wore unisex clothes.. I run away from home to join the hippies. All I had was twenty dollars stolen from my mom's cookie jar and a small bundle of clothes stuffed in a small bag made from a bed sheet, this I carried over my shoulder.
When I got to New York, first city I ever seen in my life having been raised as a country girl. I was impressed but also somewhat overwhelmed. I went into this diner and ordered a hot dog and fries and I got up to leave and I saw this young man looking at me, he had long curly blond hair and piercing blue eyes. I had seen this in the movies so I gave it a try.
Walking by the table where prince charming and his four friend were sitting I dropped my coin bag on the floor. He reached down and gave it back to me and invited me to join them, which I hastily did. You see hon they took me into the comune , no questions asked, as a girl. I even got to paint my boyfriend Volkswagen mini van with flowers hearts and ribbons all over it. Sometimes we would drive out someplace where it was reasonably quiet and he played the guitar for me. I think that was the most wonderful one and a half years I have ever had in the miserable life I would be living for the next thirty years .
Cindy
I came of age as a hippie. Wheeler Ranch, Camp Meeker, and Morning Star were right down the road from where I grew up. I found people there who if not 'accepting' at least didn't care, which was good enough for me. There are still a lot of us around, and more join everyday. Its a movement that just will not die.
Yes some people made fun of us but no one ever tried to do anything physical to us except towards the end of the Hippy era. Retaliations by the police to scatter us. I went back home by the persistence of my boyfriend who drove me to the city limits and told me to go home. I really hurt for a long time over that. It would be thirty years before I would learn to love myself again.
Cindy
I sure don't remember everyone being all benevolent to us at the time. I think things were much more clearly divided at that time, and it was pretty easy - at least for a year or so - to tell who was on what side.
I don't really know what happened after I left, I never heard from anyone and the only thing I had to go by was what was on the news on TV. A whole bunch of crape came down around that same time. The demise of John F Kennedy and Martin Luther King Junior for two. Nothing has ever been right after that.
Cindy
I do not think that it was 'all right' before that either. Had it been there would have been no need for a counter culture in the first place. Its just that its become so much worse that we have several counter cultures going on now.
The counter culture was intended to have control of our communities especially control of our own to lives and beliefs, there was a great surge towards spiritualism like never before and many other of our own ideals that we tried to create, like for instance, flower power and the flower children. Now those girls who were part of the flower children would make one eat their hearts out in envy. No it didn't work to well except for maybe for a short time at the beginning and that was where I had come in and left again before the crap hit the fan.
Cindy
Quote from: tekla on December 27, 2007, 02:13:40 PM
I sure don't remember everyone being all benevolent to us at the time. I think things were much more clearly divided at that time, and it was pretty easy - at least for a year or so - to tell who was on what side.
I never really considered myself a hippie, however was sometimes identified as such by others due to my music, clothing, long hair and radical political stance on things such as desiring peace on the planet, etc. I was all of 12 years old when Woodstock happened, so the hippie era was already done by the time I was in my teens. The era wasn't benevolent, I was called commie pinko ->-bleeped-<-got more than once, and had to be careful to not get beat up by the "love it or leave it" crowd.
y2g
Surges for spiritualism come and go. The sixties was one, but it was by no means the first in America, nor the strongest, (I'd give that one to the Second Great Awakening) but it was very pluralistic, I'll give it that. The spiritual aspect of the CounterCulture (which gave us both Baba Ram Dass and the JesusFreaks) was more about finding a solution and a way that was not science and technology and free market enterprise then it was any specific soul hunger on the part of those who grew up as Sunday Christians.
And I don't even think it was (or is, as I said, its ongoing) about having control over our own communities, it was about the more basic issue of creating community in the first place.
I did the 40th Gathering of the Tribes for the Summer of Love this past summer, and those flower girls (and boys) all have gray hair now, still, many are quite pretty. Many still work in the arts, in schools, in music and in political change, so they have not changed all that much.
I never stopped being a hippie. Not very long a ago I ran into my sweetheart on the web and oh how I so wish things could have been different. But then I am having a wonderful life with Wing Walker, I have not had a person love me as she does in a whole lot of years. Spiritual? You wanna bet I have my own faith.
Cindy