Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Hello again all of you

So, I am in Amsterdam at the moment for a few days.  Enjoying the fact that no one really notices me and I can enjoy myself in a non-judgemental environment. 

However, I saw an older transwoman on the first day and I won't describe her in detail, but she looked a fright.  Like a man in drag in every bad way possible.

It scared the hell out of me.  I am 45 and non-passing, but I am hovering in the androgynous area.  It scares me to think that people might see me like I saw this poor woman.

I am so happy with my gender, but hate knowing that my appearance and presentation are not that feminine and I am still struggling with how to handle and present that.  I went to the hairdresser earlier in the week.  A floral blouse, women's bell bottom jeans, ankle boots with accessories.  I had foundation, mascara, lipstick, etc.  I was discretely feminine and neutral colours.  I was still consistently addressed as "sir".

I know that had I worn a skirt I'd just have been "sir" in a skirt.

Only been on HRT for a month or so, but just wondering what I need to do to tip the balance in my favour and am terrified of ending up like that woman.

I don't think it means too much. Some people socially transition early in the process, sometimes before hrt. I couldn't do it, but I've met a number who have. It's amazing how much difference hrt makes in time, and if you have the money ffs can also make a big difference - and I'm going to need it.

You've only been on HRT a month hun, give it time. I came out full time after a year on HRT & i still was misgendered, clocked & assaulted. It takes time. The magic usually starts happening at around 2 and a half years from what I've heard,  & ive only been on it for 2 years. A month isnt a lotta time yet but youll see after a year, the changes will be remarkable. Like, HRT is magick, lol. I was not anywhere close to feminine or even androgynous when i came out. Just be patient, & while you wait for the HRT to do it's thing, focus on other things that you Can work on that also go into "femininity," like makeup, wardrobe, excercise, diet, laser hair removal, voice/speech training, ettiquite/behavioral training, stance/walk/posture retraining, all that. If it wasnt for all those things, i would get misgendered All the time. The looks arent everything & you cant count on HRT for eveything.
Also to say "unsuccessful transwoman" is kinda hurtful. Like at what point is she successful? As long as she's happy, shes successful, regardless of how she looks. When i came out i always said, "Id rather be an ugly woman than the sexiest man" so maybe shes happy with what shes achieved? Or maybe she Just started like you? OR maybe she IS a man in drag? Just a drag queen? Also could've been one of those "organic transwomen" who dont take HRT (only heard of one of them around here). Best advice i can give is to not compare yourself to others hun, unless its to better/improve yourself. Dont put yourself down based on others looks or even their opinions. You're strong af just for getting this far. & you have a long way to go hun, trust me, youll see many good changes sooner than later. Just work on what you Can control til then;)  ♡♡♡

you live life the best you can and you can't let others intimidate you to live your life they feel bests suits you

How do you think transwomen did it before hormones?

They just went out as themselves...RIP Marsha Johnson & Sylvia Rivera.

And no, I don´t like it either, that I get misgendered, but I have the utmost respect for those transwomen, who can do it.

They are much more stronger than I am, I can never be that strong.

As a 40-something sister, I can definitely relate to being misgendered and unpassable.  It stinks.

It took 3 months of HRT before any stranger "ma'am-ed" me.  That was rare when it happened, and is still rare.  I just went full time last week (6 months HRT) because, dang it, I need to do this *for me*.  I'm glad I did.  Yes, it's terrifying. Yes, it hurts every time I'm misgendered. Yes, people notice me, and not always in good ways (actually usually not in good ways). But it's better than hiding. At least now *some* people manage, through choice, to see who I am. They never did when I was pretending to be a guy - they just saw "him", even if they wanted to see who I really am.

Do I hope to blend in better some day? Yes. I'd love to know what it is like to just be seen as who I am, without the "trans-" qualifier on the front. I probably never will experience a day where that's true all day. So the question I had to ask myself: "Is that okay? Would I rather be a non-blending transwoman, seen as a TRANSwoman, or would I rather be a perfectly passible man?"  No contest.

Define unsuccessful. If she was comfortable, then she was successful. I socially transitioned six months before I began HRT. I've been on hormones for 4 years, and still occasionally get misgendered. I just don't let it bother me like I used to.

Quote from: MissMonique on March 15, 2018, 02:24:20 AM
Hello again all of you

So, I am in Amsterdam at the moment for a few days.  Enjoying the fact that no one really notices me and I can enjoy myself in a non-judgemental environment. 

However, I saw an older transwoman on the first day and I won't describe her in detail, but she looked a fright.  Like a man in drag in every bad way possible.

It scared the hell out of me.  I am 45 and non-passing, but I am hovering in the androgynous area.  It scares me to think that people might see me like I saw this poor woman.

I am so happy with my gender, but hate knowing that my appearance and presentation are not that feminine and I am still struggling with how to handle and present that.  I went to the hairdresser earlier in the week.  A floral blouse, women's bell bottom jeans, ankle boots with accessories.  I had foundation, mascara, lipstick, etc.  I was discretely feminine and neutral colours.  I was still consistently addressed as "sir".

I know that had I worn a skirt I'd just have been "sir" in a skirt.

Only been on HRT for a month or so, but just wondering what I need to do to tip the balance in my favour and am terrified of ending up like that woman.

I find in generally non-judgmental places, binary acceptance is about hitting a 51% mark in how people will identify you. People just need enough clues to get it right. I'll tall, 6'2" (188 cm) and have big hands, feet and head but a small chest. If I dress feminine and do nothing else, I still get misgendered--mostly by people who don't speak European languages well. My estimation is lack of this kind of language skill correlates due to lack of exposure to relevant cultural gender clues. Western culture people do much better. If I put 200cc breast forms in, the misgendering is about half; with 480cc breast forms it's nearly zero amongst anyone.

Jesus, Monique, you say how nice it was to be in a non-judgmental place, and  then you judge the hell out of someone?

Passing as a woman is not nearly as important as passing as a nice person.

I have the same response as Devlyn, but I have the same fear and have had it forever.  I remember being a teen and seeing a trans lady that didnt pass on TV and I thought, that won't be me.  And now, decades later I am that person.  Hopefully eventually I will pass, and hopefully this person described will also.  If we don't at least come to peace being ourselves

Bari Jo

I'd feel sorry for them not wanting me to be that way (except I am) then I'd remind myself, we all do what we can to ease the beast inside of us. If that is what works for them then more power to them. I do the same, I dress myself to what makes me feel better. If someone else doesn't like it, too bad for them.

Quote from: Bari Jo on March 15, 2018, 08:15:56 AM
I have the same response as Devlyn, but I have the same fear and have had it forever.  I remember being a teen and seeing a trans lady that didnt pass on TV and I thought, that won't be me.  And now, decades later I am that person.  Hopefully eventually I will pass, and hopefully this person described will also.  If we don't at least come to peace being ourselves

Bari Jo

It's taken me a long time to realize that the saying "There but for the grace of God go I" actually means "There with the grace of God I am."

Quote from: MissMonique on March 15, 2018, 02:24:20 AM
So, I am in Amsterdam ... . 

I saw an older transwoman ... and I won't describe her in detail, but she looked a fright.  Like a man in drag in every bad way possible.

It scared the hell out of me.  I am 45 and non-passing, but I am hovering in the androgynous area.  It scares me to think that people might see me like I saw this poor woman.

I am so happy with my gender, but hate knowing that my appearance and presentation are not that feminine and I am still struggling with how to handle and present that.  I went to the hairdresser earlier in the week.  A floral blouse, women's bell bottom jeans, ankle boots with accessories.  I had foundation, mascara, lipstick, etc.  I was discretely feminine and neutral colours.  I was still consistently addressed as "sir".

I know that had I worn a skirt I'd just have been "sir" in a skirt.

Only been on HRT for a month or so, but just wondering what I need to do to tip the balance in my favour and am terrified of ending up like that woman.

The scariest thing about debuting as female is how you will be perceived and received by others. It's a prison. Freedom comes when you decide that pleasing yourself is more important.

Passing isn't what will set you free. When the need to express and be who you are becomes more important to you than the reactions of other people, that's when you'll be free.

When I discovered I was female, I finally loved myself. My dysphoria didn't manifest as a revulsion with my physical body; it manifested as a revulsion with myself. Realizing I was female brushed all that away, virtually overnight. I am so happy now, compared to how I was; and it shows. I don't pass; but when people see me they see a happy trans woman. And that happiness is more important to most people than what I look like.

When people say "ma'am" to me, I usually thank them, because I know it was the result of conscious reflection, an intentional decision to be polite and kind. There is no way in the world someone could mistake me for cis. I still get "sir'd" a lot, and it's a nuisance; but there is more silver lining than black cloud in my interactions with others. It's not because I'm lucky. It's because I'm positive.

One of the hardest things for many girls to do is to get out there in women's clothing. You've already done that. Your nemesis is psychological. You're fixated on something that isn't central and have magnified it out of proportion, until it has become an essential, something you think you can't live without; and, since you can't have it, at least for the moment, you're in crisis.

When I see a happy, non-passing trans woman, it fills my heart; she is like a lighthouse in the storm. She has found herself, loves herself, her not passing notwithstanding. Such women greatly encourage me.

Be you. The same truth applies to all sorts of people, not just us. Don't give your life to your fears; what a waste that would be.

I understand where you are coming from, as it has happened to me that I see unpassable transwomen in the club and instantly think I hope I don't end up like that. But at the same time I kinda feel like we are all clockable in one way or another so I'm trying to prepare myself mentally for that.

Quote from: Ann W on March 15, 2018, 10:00:01 AM
The scariest thing about debuting as female is how you will be perceived and received by others. It's a prison. Freedom comes when you decide that pleasing yourself is more important.

Such a powerful statement! I aim to feel and think like that.

Something I'm also not seeing in Monique's post is any indication of knowing how this person is presenting.

Think outside the binary box. Some of us don't need to choose  boy OR girl, we mix boy AND  girl.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 15, 2018, 10:44:45 AM
Something I'm also not seeing in Monique's post is any indication of knowing how this person is presenting.

Think outside the binary box. Some of us don't need to choose  boy OR girl, we mix boy AND  girl.

Hugs, Devlyn

I agree with you Devlyn, some of us are comfortable with a mix.  I know I am, but I think in time I will be more on the feminine end of it. 
Personally I think your attitude has much to do with passing and if you own it , you are are more than halfway there.

While I'm on my soapbox..

Quote from: MissMonique on March 15, 2018, 02:24:20 AM
Hello again all of you

So, I am in Amsterdam at the moment for a few days.  Enjoying the fact that no one really notices me and I can enjoy myself in a non-judgemental environment. 

However, I saw an older transwoman on the first day and I won't describe her in detail, but she looked a fright.  Like a man in drag in every bad way possible.

It scared the hell out of me.  I am 45 and non-passing, but I am hovering in the androgynous area.  It scares me to think that people might see me like I saw this poor woman.

I am so happy with my gender, but hate knowing that my appearance and presentation are not that feminine and I am still struggling with how to handle and present that.  I went to the hairdresser earlier in the week.  A floral blouse, women's bell bottom jeans, ankle boots with accessories.  I had foundation, mascara, lipstick, etc.  I was discretely feminine and neutral colours.  I was still consistently addressed as "sir".

I know that had I worn a skirt I'd just have been "sir" in a skirt.

Only been on HRT for a month or so, but just wondering what I need to do to tip the balance in my favour and am terrified of ending up like that woman.

..we love our Drag friends, they are welcome at Susan's Place. Please  don't say things that will make them feel less than welcome.

I have problems with the word "unsuccessful".  Replacing it with "non-passing" would still be a judgement, but it could be a valid statement of personal opinion.  But "unsuccessful" makes assumptions about the other person's history and state of mind.

Who knows what mountains she had to climb, what dragons she slew, what personal tragedies she had to overcome to get to where she is?  Success is too personal for someone else to judge.

Quote from: Ann W on March 15, 2018, 10:00:01 AM
When people say "ma'am" to me, I usually thank them, because I know it was the result of conscious reflection, an intentional decision to be polite and kind. There is no way in the world someone could mistake me for cis. I still get "sir'd" a lot, and it's a nuisance; but there is more silver lining than black cloud in my interactions with others. It's not because I'm lucky. It's because I'm positive.

Absolutely!  One of the thing that has struck me (I'm new at this, so lots of things strike me!) about being in the world as an obviously trans person is that there are good people out there, and sometimes allowing yourself to be open to that creates some wonderful experiences.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 15, 2018, 11:09:29 AM
While I'm on my soapbox..

..we love our Drag friends, they are welcome at Susan's Place. Please  don't say things that will make them feel less than welcome.

From what I understand a lot of drag performers identify as cis males (e.g., Frank Marino, Rupaul etc.); and their makeup is heavily applied, which looks good on stage under the lights, but not very good up close in the light of day.

Quote from: kitchentablepotpourri on March 15, 2018, 12:36:46 PM
From what I understand a lot of drag performers identify as cis males (e.g., Frank Marino, Rupaul etc.); and their makeup is heavily applied, which looks good on stage under the lights, but not very good up close in the light of day.

Yes, I know a few of the local Queens and also the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. The makeup is heavy. The hearts are gold.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I'm not saying anything mean; and name dropping in this town is unimpressive 😀

Quote from: MissMonique on March 15, 2018, 02:24:20 AMOnly been on HRT for a month or so, but just wondering what I need to do to tip the balance in my favour and am terrified of ending up like that woman.

Others have spoken eloquently about why we don't need to be afraid of not passing.  However, we don't always get a choice on this matter, just as we don't get to choose whether we're dysphoric or not.  For a whole lot of transitioners, being misgendered will trigger gender dysphoria... and sometimes that can only be ameliorated by proper gendering.

If you need other people to gender you female without fail, you must address your embodiment and your socialization. 

HRT will only do so much for your embodiment.  It won't change the shape of your bones, the shape of your genitalia, the sound of your voice, or your facial hair.  Electrolysis and surgery can change most of this, but it's very expensive.  Voice training will be required, even if you need surgery to cut out the lower frequencies.  Facial hair removal and voice retraining are most important here, followed by facial surgery.  If you have broad shoulders, it will likely take having big boobs to "balance" them out. 

Socialization includes not just things like knowing how to present fashion and makeup in a way that's appropriate for your age and location, but also includes learning different ways to interact and converse.  Gender is constantly policed, regardless of how you identify, and just about everyone of your true gender understands what the "rules" are for same-sex and mixed-sex company, and what the consequences will be for breaking them.  (Everyone breaks the rules, btw, but usually only to a limited extent.) 

Finally, for many if not most cis people, you won't "pass" with an open narrative of transition. 

None of this means that you won't elicit female gendering if you don't pass. Obviously, all kinds of trans folk get gendered correctly just on the basis of narrative alone.  It's just not consistent or predictable, and can often feel condescending or indulgent.  But even being gendered as "trans" will likely be far preferable to being gendered as cis male.  Just by coming out, or presenting as visibly gender variant, people will treat you differently than before, and that in itself can be a big relief.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 15, 2018, 12:55:55 PM
Obviously, all kinds of trans folk get gendered correctly just on the basis of narrative alone.  It's just not consistent or predictable, and can often feel condescending or indulgent.

Thinking about that kinda made me feel sad. As if people would be "playing along" with me, not really accepting me as female.

Yes, my description on here and use of language was perhaps a little unflattering.  However, I am saying it here, about someone you'll never identify from my description.  I am saying it to ask for your advice about myself rather than to pass a comment about a nameless, anonymous third party.  The point of my comment was that this person looked like the sum of my worst nightmares about myself.  I caught a moment of eye contact and felt such internal pain in her.  It looked like she knew she had ended up in a bad place and had no way back to anywhere else. 

So, yes, unsuccessful based on their own relative experience.  Perhaps I was reading a lot into that shared moment, but the point was the fear it stoked in me.

I gave her a smile and a nod, as if to say, I see you sister. 

Don't for one second read into that some idea that I am unaccepting and judgmental.  That is judgmental of you to do that to me.  I can feel someone's pain.  I can share in it.  And in reality, a lot of the time people feel that they have to "play along with us as we dress up as women".  I had this from a nurse that came to my home to do bloodwork, I had it in the hairdresser's, I get it everywhere and it is rare to be accepted in a way that reflects how I feel and If I see that in someone else, but amplified to an extreme, then I am not judging them, I am sympathising and fearful for my own future.

To pretend that they are successfully transitioned, that their interior and exterior match to a level they are happy with and that the world takes them seriously and I should just be nice about it all and only say lovely things does no one any favours about improving how we deal with issues, support one another, lobby for change, get access to better resources and find ways to support people who find themselves in a place like that.

Or we could just pretend... lah de dah...  everything is flowers and rainbows.

Stop digging. Backpedaling only looks good when it's done on a unicycle.  ;)

Oh wow same thing happened to me like a month ago. I thought her confidence when she walked in was pretty cool. But I'm more or less andro and it looked like she stopped smiling when she saw me. Not sure why.. I mean, I'm very friendly [emoji56]

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Why is it that she cannot share her fears without being attacked? Perhaps her wording could be better but her fears are real. This is the MALE TO FEMALE TRANSSEXUAL portion of the forums right? These ARE the fears to be delt with here, in this forum, with people who have quite possibly felt the same way.

It should be possible to express our displeasure about wording without attacking all Gestapo like. Policing here, to that extent, is more like bullying. I don't think that is what this site is about.

Monique,
It can be heart wrenching and painful. To the world most of us have been that girl, it does hurt, but does get better with time and effort.

Even if you can't see it right now.

Saw an unsuccessful trans woman and it scared you a lot!  Seriously?  Unsuccessful according to what/whose standards?  What's scary is to see a post like this in a venue such as ours. What if the subject of the post were a very fat woman wearing an itsy bitsy teenie weenie yellow polka dot bikini on the beach in Santa Monica.......how would you feel about characterizing her as scary?  Judging the book solely by the cover?

There seems to be a large measure of projection present in this post. I didn't see anything beyond a "shared moment" and "knowing glance" in the "encounter" .........and that was sufficient to figure out she ended up in a bad place with no way back? 

Maybe the person was an eccentric multi millionaire who enjoyed freaking out the tourists on occasion.  Or, What if a conversation with the scary man in drag revealed that they were dying in a few months and were determined to finish out their life authentically despite the optics. Does the additional context modify your feeling about the characterization in the op?.

I have a more fundamental question: why does another's appearance impact you in the least let alone generate visions of your worst nightmare?  Perhaps it would be better to work on self acceptance from the inside out and leave assumptions about strangers out of the equation.

This is not about denying the difficulties that are associated with being transgender and learning how to cope successfully.  The tone of the post comes across as judgmental in a passive aggressive sort of way and I agree with Devlyn..... Quit digging.

It's ok to be scared.  It's normal.  I'm sure most of us felt that way at some point or another.  The important thing is what you decide to do with this fear.  Rather than allowing yourself to be paralyzed by this fear, take it as a call to action and start taking steps needed to reach your goals.

Start with voice training.  A female voice is one of the most important elements to being gendered female, and you can achieve it simply with training (and even those who get voice surgery still need to do vocal training anyway).  Start today; unfortunately HRT won't change your voice.  It's all up to you and the amount of work you decide to put in.

One month in HRT is really nothing.
I won't jump down your throat on the rest of your comments. It looks like everyone covered that.
I'll say it's what you make of it though.
I've found that the hardest thing to do is let go of the camouflage that you built up to blend.
My voice is getting better and I'm finally shedding some of that stuff and getting mam much more consistently. But looks are only a small part. I pass in photos I think but old habits die hard.

Kitty


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Quote from: FinallyMichelle on March 15, 2018, 09:29:20 PM
Why is it that she cannot share her fears without being attacked? Perhaps her wording could be better but her fears are real. This is the MALE TO FEMALE TRANSSEXUAL portion of the forums right? These ARE the fears to be delt with here, in this forum, with people who have quite possibly felt the same way.

It should be possible to express our displeasure about wording without attacking all Gestapo like. Policing here, to that extent, is more like bullying. I don't think that is what this site is about.

Monique,
It can be heart wrenching and painful. To the world most of us have been that girl, it does hurt, but does get better with time and effort.

Even if you can't see it right now.

I agree - I thought we were allowed to express genuine opinions here?  - I think some of you are being overly zealous in a forum where people are invited to share their opinion.

Sonja

Please let us share our opinions without attacking each other.

Cindy

Live and let live.  Isn't that what everyone on this site wants?  Acceptance.  Live our life as we see fit.  Wear / express what we want in our routine daily life without getting marginalized for it.  It is not about passing.  It is about comfort both socially as well as personally.
We all make judgements.  Some are valid.  Most are not. We don't know others path that has been taken.  We don't know their needs. 
I think of the picture I saw once.  A person in a ballerina outfit with a tutu, a hairy chest and beard rollerblading down the road enjoying the moment.  This person was owning their true self and bothering no one but the small mined. Seems to me they were passing fine as themselves.  I for one wont be small minded.   

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 15, 2018, 07:30:16 PM
Stop digging. Backpedaling only looks good when it's done on a unicycle.  ;)

Pot to kettle? I'm sorry Dev, I also read your first and subsequent points in this thread as judgemental to a degree I'd call unwarranted. So echoing the most recent comments by finallymichelle & Sonja.

Is there some stuff in the OP's post that needs some unpacking? Sure, that doesn't mean her thoughts aren't welcome to me. I've had more or less the OP's experience and response dozens of times. The most personally telling would have been when I was only a few weeks out myself, and very much on tenterhooks in my own life in the midst of arranging the early steps toward GCS. I gave directions to a trans woman clearly out of sorts wearing an outfit that wasn't the least flattering or age appropriate.

I think the key thing in that interaction was the absolute clarity that she wasn't comfortable with her own presentation. What I need was give all of my available signs of approval; made eye contact, smiled, helped her with what she asked (how to find a particular lecture hall).

Compare that to the comfortably nonbinary expressions I see daily. Back when I was strategizing my own transition I would see someone sporting a beard with otherwise femme attire and presentation and not a single sign of discomfort.

And I filed all those experiences away in formulating my own plan for how to present. In fact GCS threw a huge monkey wrench into that plan. Pre-op I'd had no plan to regularly wear dresses post-op. That went out the window as soon as I began to have enough spare cycles to get to a thrift shop and acqire a couple not skirts. Today that's my daily attire and the only reason I still wear work jeans to blow glass is I haven't worn out the ones I own and can only recently afford work skirts in suitable fabric.

So here I am a mostly binary female without any firm plans for passing. I'm correctly gendered by all the people who know me and invariably misgendered by everyone else. That was the plan, the only thing in the plan that changed was skirts. Bless me, I love 'em.

I've also expressed this same fear here. I don't know if I'll transition. I don't know if I won't. If I do, I want to be taken for a woman. I don't want to be an obvious T-person. I don't mind being read once in awhile, but life would be so much easier if most just didn't know. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some. But, if I have to transition, I'll have little choice and will just have to do the best I can.

Quote from: amandam on March 16, 2018, 12:27:30 AM
I've also expressed this same fear here. I don't know if I'll transition. I don't know if I won't. If I do, I want to be taken for a woman. I don't want to be an obvious T-person. I don't mind being read once in awhile, but life would be so much easier if most just didn't know. Sorry if that doesn't sit well with some. But, if I have to transition, I'll have little choice and will just have to do the best I can.

Anyone ever tell you your avatar looks like Marlo Thomas?

I was shocked by the hypocritical, vehement ad hominem attacks on me here by sanctimonious people.

A few of you have been lovely.

Some of you displaying much more malevolence than anything unintentional in my posts.

I also see that one such person was an admin on here.

I wanted to support the transagenda in the US.  I am not American, very happily not American.  However, the attack on your civil liberties from within means those of us in more enlightened countries that enjoy liberties feel a need to donate in some ways to help your culture.

I can't see myself continuing with my monthly donations to this site if this is the kind of toxic dialogue that is promoted here.

Don't bother replying to me or this thread.

I won't be back.

I wish all of you well, but see a wide gulf from what I consider to be healthy discourse and what passes for it here.

We all start somewhere


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Quote from: MissMonique on March 16, 2018, 07:21:11 AM
I was shocked by the hypocritical, vehement ad hominem attacks on me here by sanctimonious people.

A few of you have been lovely.

Some of you displaying much more malevolence than anything unintentional in my posts.

I also see that one such person was an admin on here.

I wanted to support the transagenda in the US.  I am not American, very happily not American.  However, the attack on your civil liberties from within means those of us in more enlightened countries that enjoy liberties feel a need to donate in some ways to help your culture.

I can't see myself continuing with my monthly donations to this site if this is the kind of toxic dialogue that is promoted here.

Don't bother replying to me or this thread.

I won't be back.

I wish all of you well, but see a wide gulf from what I consider to be healthy discourse and what passes for it here.

I saw this post coming a mile away....
Anyone ready to start supporting people again? 
You cannot correct people until you start supporting them; they simply will not hear you.

Quote from: ainsley on March 16, 2018, 08:09:45 AM
I saw this post coming a mile away....
Anyone ready to start supporting people again? 
You cannot correct people until you start supporting them; they simply will not hear you.

My idea of supporting people is to guide them in how to respectfully interact with the world. I put less priority on commending tantrums blaming others for self image issues.

Quote from: MissMonique on March 15, 2018, 06:56:32 PM
Yes, my description on here and use of language was perhaps a little unflattering.  However, I am saying it here, about someone you'll never identify from my description.  I am saying it to ask for your advice about myself rather than to pass a comment about a nameless, anonymous third party.  The point of my comment was that this person looked like the sum of my worst nightmares about myself.  I caught a moment of eye contact and felt such internal pain in her.  It looked like she knew she had ended up in a bad place and had no way back to anywhere else. 

So, yes, unsuccessful based on their own relative experience.  Perhaps I was reading a lot into that shared moment, but the point was the fear it stoked in me.

I gave her a smile and a nod, as if to say, I see you sister. 

Don't for one second read into that some idea that I am unaccepting and judgmental.  That is judgmental of you to do that to me.  I can feel someone's pain.  I can share in it.  And in reality, a lot of the time people feel that they have to "play along with us as we dress up as women".  I had this from a nurse that came to my home to do bloodwork, I had it in the hairdresser's, I get it everywhere and it is rare to be accepted in a way that reflects how I feel and If I see that in someone else, but amplified to an extreme, then I am not judging them, I am sympathising and fearful for my own future.

To pretend that they are successfully transitioned, that their interior and exterior match to a level they are happy with and that the world takes them seriously and I should just be nice about it all and only say lovely things does no one any favours about improving how we deal with issues, support one another, lobby for change, get access to better resources and find ways to support people who find themselves in a place like that.

Or we could just pretend... lah de dah...  everything is flowers and rainbows.

I understand where you're coming from, I don't think you need to explain yourself any further :).

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 15, 2018, 06:15:38 AM
Jesus, Monique, you say how nice it was to be in a non-judgmental place, and  then you judge the hell out of someone?

This is exactly what you did Devlyn. We should correct someone through the example, not through scolding and judging.

To the members who share the same feelings as the OP.  I had the same fears when starting out.  Transition was a giant step into the unknown.  I needed a certain amount of faith/hope that things would work out.  I've also had to adjust my expectations a long the way.

For those happy who are comfortable being visibly trans, I am happy for you.  But that doesn't work for me.  It feels crappy to get misgendered and to know that people are just humoring me with my fantasy.  I guess I'm just saying it can be hard for those of us who just don't "see" it.

Quote from: MissMonique on March 16, 2018, 07:21:11 AM
I was shocked by the hypocritical, vehement ad hominem attacks on me here by sanctimonious people.

A few of you have been lovely.

Some of you displaying much more malevolence than anything unintentional in my posts.

I also see that one such person was an admin on here.

I wanted to support the transagenda in the US.  I am not American, very happily not American.  However, the attack on your civil liberties from within means those of us in more enlightened countries that enjoy liberties feel a need to donate in some ways to help your culture.

I can't see myself continuing with my monthly donations to this site if this is the kind of toxic dialogue that is promoted here.

Don't bother replying to me or this thread.

I won't be back.

I wish all of you well, but see a wide gulf from what I consider to be healthy discourse and what passes for it here.

I was on your side until you started bad mouthing our country!

Quote from: FinallyMichelle on March 15, 2018, 09:29:20 PM
Why is it that she cannot share her fears without being attacked? Perhaps her wording could be better but her fears are real. This is the MALE TO FEMALE TRANSSEXUAL portion of the forums right? These ARE the fears to be delt with here, in this forum, with people who have quite possibly felt the same way.

It should be possible to express our displeasure about wording without attacking all Gestapo like. Policing here, to that extent, is more like bullying. I don't think that is what this site is about.

Monique,
It can be heart wrenching and painful. To the world most of us have been that girl, it does hurt, but does get better with time and effort.

Even if you can't see it right now.

I agree, this should never be a place where we attack.  Words and sentence structure are tricky and sometimes hard to put together with your true meaning.  Trying to understand the true meaning of someone else's thoughts can be tricky too.  There are rules at Susan's that are there to protect each and everyone.  Let's step back, take a deep breath, and relax and stop with the attacks.

I think this whole conversation highlights one of perhaps the biggest divides among us all.

There are those who have the need/confidence/determination to go out into the world and regardless of their appearance are happy to live their lives; I'd put myself broadly in this camp.

And those for whom appearance and a more holistic acceptance out in public are a higher priority. Perhaps the OP is in this group at this point in time?

I do not consider either of these groups superior, they simply reflect lived experiences, personalities, life priorities, the cultures and societies they live in.

Respect for each other and empathy for these different views can help us support each other (why we're here?), while we keep our language respectful and inclusive. X

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Quote from: Charlie Nicki on March 15, 2018, 02:18:21 PM
Thinking about that kinda made me feel sad. As if people would be "playing along" with me, not really accepting me as female.

I don't think it's a matter of "acceptance."  Like, those who "play along" are doing exactly what we ask, gendering us per our narratives rather than our bodies.  These people are kind.  They are accepting.  They are also consciously overriding the gender assignment they already made, automatically and subconsciously, based on their initial perceptions of our embodiment. 

In my experience, there are only three kinds of people who will actually believe you're female.  First and foremost, those who assign you "female" upon meeting you, without disclosure of a trans narrative.  Second, most other transitioners, simply through personal experience (though there are some who lack enough empathy to make the leap).  Third, among cis people, are the "spiritual masters" who see past the flesh (or the narrative, if you're out despite having an embodiment that doesn't elicit misgendering) to the person inside. 

Those in the first group don't have a choice.

Quote from: Megan. on March 16, 2018, 10:18:10 AMI think this whole conversation highlights one of perhaps the biggest divides among us all.

I agree.

There are those who wish to transition from binary to binary, and there are those who want to occupy a place somewhere in between.  All of which is complicated by the fact that there are some in the first camp who, for reasons beyond their control, end up in the second camp.

There is no "right answer" as to which camp anyone "should" belong in. It really depends on what your personal truth is.

I was saddened by this thread. A poster says something that can be interpreted by some as offensive. So, what happens, they get jumped on.  It doesn't seem like the responses are with the intention of pointing out how they might be more sensitive to others. Some of the responses seem more like an expression of anger. Why go there? For example, if, say, I catch my friend "Bob" calling someone a '->-bleeped-<-.' I might have my dander up, but my first attempt to respond might go better if I say, " Ah, hey Bob, that kind of comment hurts people's feelings." Not, "Hey Bob you're kind of a jerk for having that attitude." Listen, I'm not calling anybody out. I'm just thinking, before you let out your anger, try a little tact. The OP left, and it did not have to go that way. That is sad.
Monica

Ladies can't we all just get a long :O? I will put on the kettle and we can all talk about doggo memes!! It be better then world war 3 anyways haha

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 16, 2018, 09:27:48 AM
My idea of supporting people is to guide them in how to respectfully interact with the world. I put less priority on commending tantrums blaming others for self image issues.

IMO some here showed no understanding of where she was coming from, taking what she said in the worst possible way... and I have a hard time understanding how a TS could do that.

In this  society, for women in particular, how one looks has a HUGE effect on one's social and professional life WITHOUT "trans" entering into the picture... and with that added there is a lot of fear...

The fear of winding up easily 'readable' is something that stopped many of us from dealing with being TS until we had no choice if we wanted to stay functional. Is there any TS who has never had such fears?

If there are I sure don't understand them!!!

- Karen

When a person realizes they are gender dysphoric, it's necessary to take whatever steps are possible to alleviate the pain in their life to find mental peace.  The steps we need to take are different for each of us.  For some, the only "successful" treatment is to integrate into society, and be accepted as a natal woman by most, if not all, people.  Others find happiness without going that far.  Some need to align their physical bodies as closely as possible with their gender identities.   Others are happy with the bodies they were born with.  For some it's important that their appearance reflect either masculinity or femininity.  For other's androgyny is preferred. 

The point is, if we wish to escape the curse of gender dysphoria, we need to understand what is necessary to accomplish it.  Often the path to that end is all but impossible for various reasons.  If being able to pass convincingly as a woman is necessary to alleviate GD, but for one reason or another that goal is unreachable, it can feel like a dagger thrust into the heart.  From that standpoint, an "unsuccessful" transition can be more painful than the original dysphoria.  The fear of being trapped by circumstances can certainly be frightening.

But early on, we don't always see where a transition path will take us.  We don't see all possible routes to achieving some measure of happiness.  This is where help from those of us who've gone before can be of great help to one just starting out. 

A "successful" transition from the OP's standpoint clearly entails passability, not for others, necessarily, but for herself, and she has every right to her feelings.  There may be very real reasons for her to believe that passing will never be possible, and if that's really true, it's not realistic to expect someone to simply dismiss those feelings because they don't agree with non-binary gender ideals.

My advice to the OP, although too late in coming, is to learn as much as possible about how others have achieved passability.  I'm convinced that nearly all trans women can pass in typical social environments if they take the appropriate action to eliminate enough masculine giveaways to tip the balance toward the feminine.   I never thought I would convincingly pass as a woman, but after three years of constant effort, and with the help of other trans women, I am happy to say that I pass today, and it's definitely what I needed to rid myself of GD. 

If you are one of those who are convinced you will never pass, and are convinced you will be miserable being misgendered and perceived as a man even if people treat you respectfully, you might be better off not transitioning to full-time life as a woman.  But, I wouldn't jump to that conclusion too fast.  The goal is to find mental peace and personal happiness to the greatest extent possible.  There are no hard and fast rules on how to do that.

Quote from: Clara Kay on March 16, 2018, 09:43:28 PM
I'm convinced that nearly all trans women can pass in typical social environments if they take the appropriate action to eliminate enough masculine giveaways to tip the balance toward the feminine.   I never thought I would convincingly pass as a woman, but after three years of constant effort, and with the help of other trans women, I am happy to say that I pass today, and it's definitely what I needed to rid myself of GD. 

I have a bit of a different perspective on that.  Granted, I've only been presenting for a few months as myself, and I've had many trans sisters tell me I'll be reasonably passible over time, that things will get better for me, etc.  But I can't live my life on the hope that they may be right. But maybe this is as passible as I'll ever get. I'm still going to be myself - a binary woman. A binary woman who will never be 100% passible even if she gets more passible over time.

I hate getting misgendered. I think most of us do.

One of the stereotypes that I believe holds so many of us back is the idea that if some transwoman isn't passible, it's because she didn't try hard enough. Basically that we aren't "serious" about being trans if we don't pass, because if we were serious, we could pass.

I don't know what stress another woman is dealing with - it's perfectly possible that someone is spending every bit of effort possible and still not passing, even after doing that for years. When I see a woman who would love to just be able to blend in but can't because of the accidents of chromosomes, but who still finds ways to be true to herself, I know she gets a lot of garbage from the world who thinks she is lazy, not trying, and just playing at being trans. I know however she is strong as heck.

Quote from: HappyMoni on March 16, 2018, 06:27:41 PM
I was saddened by this thread. A poster says something that can be interpreted by some as offensive. So, what happens, they get jumped on.  It doesn't seem like the responses are with the intention of pointing out how they might be more sensitive to others. Some of the responses seem more like an expression of anger. Why go there? For example, if, say, I catch my friend "Bob" calling someone a '->-bleeped-<-.' I might have my dander up, but my first attempt to respond might go better if I say, " Ah, hey Bob, that kind of comment hurts people's feelings." Not, "Hey Bob you're kind of a jerk for having that attitude." Listen, I'm not calling anybody out. I'm just thinking, before you let out your anger, try a little tact. The OP left, and it did not have to go that way. That is sad.
Monica

I am saddened also and have lost the trust I had in talking about my problems.

Clearly non passable trans people spark a reaction from some. It's not right or wrong it's just a process we go through. The end of the day the difference between a cis and trans person is that one group has agonized over their gender a ton more. Usually most of our belief systems, biases, prejudices are similar to our cis counterparts in whatever part of the world we come from.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Quote from: Allison S on March 17, 2018, 12:48:02 AM
Clearly non passable trans people spark a reaction from some. It's not right or wrong it's just a process we go through. The end of the day the difference between a cis and trans person is that one group has agonized over their gender a ton more. Usually most of our belief systems, biases, prejudices are similar to our cis counterparts in whatever part of the world we come from.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Well said Allison.

Quote from: Clara Kay
I'm convinced that nearly all trans women can pass in typical social environments if they take the appropriate action to eliminate enough masculine giveaways to tip the balance toward the feminine.   I never thought I would convincingly pass as a woman, but after three years of constant effort, and with the help of other trans women, I am happy to say that I pass today, and it's definitely what I needed to rid myself of GD.

Quote from: ToriJo on March 16, 2018, 11:15:11 PM

One of the stereotypes that I believe holds so many of us back is the idea that if some transwoman isn't passible, it's because she didn't try hard enough. Basically that we aren't "serious" about being trans if we don't pass, because if we were serious, we could pass.
....

When I see a woman who would love to just be able to blend in but can't because of the accidents of chromosomes, but who still finds ways to be true to herself, I know she gets a lot of garbage from the world who thinks she is lazy, not trying, and just playing at being trans. I know however she is strong as heck.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda?

Could I pass, most definitely. Now here's my dilemma:

Passing for me would entail wearing a wig which is completely unacceptable in my chosen profession of blowing glass. And I'm not in the least enamored of looking one way when I work and another the rest of the time.

Same goes for shaving, even if I took off my beard, I'd have to wear pancake makeup to reasonably cover shadow, again that's completely untenable working in front of 2000 degree furnaces, also while I know how to do that make-up quite well, it's not a look I love on myself.

And hair transplant / electrolysis aren't covered by my insurance and are in any case not even vaguely in the budget of this impoverished artist. Same goes for makeup and wigs, that stuff is far from cheap! :-(.

Below I'll touch on why it matters (and also doesn't)

Quote from: HappyMoni on March 16, 2018, 06:27:41 PM
I was saddened by this thread. A poster says something that can be interpreted by some as offensive.
.....

Sure this thread isn't easy, however being judged by other trans people is way down on my list of concerns. The reality is that the world at large is going to often judge me far more harshly. So I'm glad we're talking about it (and agree, keeping things non-judgy is always for the better).

Last night I went to a Meetup-advertised lesbian & bi women's discussion group. I go to about 4 such events monthly, all of them have been running for 10-15 years, long before Meetup was a thing.

However I've been sitting in the wings of the local lesbian/bi community far longer, 20 years now. Hell, I sponsored a closed queer discussion group for over a year back in the day that was mostly lesbian/bi.

To be sure, entering women's spaces while not passing has some daunting elements. Well over half the times I enter the women's center where last night's discussion is held I get challenged at the door (I need to talk to them about that). There's a femme group that's nominally inclusive of trans women that won't admit me because I'm not passing.

However, once I'm in one of these spaces and especially as I continue showing up and talking and presenting emotionally as female, the participants get me, welcome me and recognize me as one of them.

And IMX, there are few places harder to gain acceptance than among queer women. We're a minority within a minority. My area, Boston/Cambridge has a huge LGBT profile and where there's a proportionally large number of gay bars, many of them are actively unwelcoming towards women. (Last night I finally learned of one venue on the far side of town that's women-centric. I'll be checking it out Sunday after my queer women's book group!)

Quote from: Bobbie Ann on March 17, 2018, 12:25:14 AM
I am saddened also and have lost the trust I had in talking about my problems.

Whenever you get two people together there is discord to some degree. Hell, I fight with myself sometimes. I hope you don't see the negative edge that sometimes erupts and get discouraged about seeking what you need to find your happiness. I have found this place to be very supportive and it has helped me tremendously. People here have something in common surely, but we have very different perspectives. Sometimes, in my opinion, we have to remind ourselves to disagree, but disagree respectfully. (I'm no exception to that.) We pay a price for disrespect and that is the trust you speak of Bobbie Ann.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now. Back to my usual smart ass self.

Monica

Quotemy chosen profession of blowing glass

Pardon my going off topic, but SadieBlake --> I looove blown glass art. Is there a site where you have some of your work displayed?

Quote from: Clara Kay on March 16, 2018, 09:43:28 PM
The point is, if we wish to escape the curse of gender dysphoria, we need to understand what is necessary to accomplish it.  Often the path to that end is all but impossible for various reasons.  If being able to pass convincingly as a woman is necessary to alleviate GD, but for one reason or another that goal is unreachable, it can feel like a dagger thrust into the heart.

This issue has been much on my mind since I discovered I was trans. It has not been a problem for me; but the agony of so many of my sisters weighs heavily on my heart.

My point of view is based on a belief I have held all of my life. I can't prove it; but I believe it: There is no such thing as a no-win situation. Because I believe this, I cannot believe that passing is necessary for personal peace. I'm not saying it can't help; obviously, it does. Oxycontin helps, too; but it's not a solution. I must believe that the real solution lies elsewhere.

For some time, I have believed that passing is like a tourniquet, or a drug designed to alleviate symptoms rather than cure the ill. Tourniquets and drugs are good things and necessary; but they are not permanent solutions. In some cases, a drug must be taken for the rest of one's life -- like testosterone blockers and estrogen, to relieve the effects of one's body generating the wrong hormone for her brain -- but it's not a solution. The fundamental problem remains.

The felt need to pass is different from physical problems, however; it's psychological/spiritual. It dwells in the realm of hope and despair. The limits imposed by a physical problem do not exist here; here, there can always be a real, permanent solution.

Insofar as passing is felt to be necessary for the sake of others' perceptions, I think it's always a mistake to place one's happiness and peace of mind at the mercy of others. Those things ultimately come from within, and that's where they must be found. That's not a specifically trans issue; it manifests in many contexts. This is not to say that it isn't difficult; it can be incredibly difficult, painful and traumatic. But I don't think the real solution for a problem like this lies in the hands of other people.

Insofar as passing is felt to be necessary for one's own sake, I feel certain that the true solution lies somewhere in the realm of re-ordering one's perceptions. I do not mean to suggest that this process is easy, either, only that it can be done. I can't prescribe the method; the specific route necessary is undoubtedly highly individual.

I would rather not use my experience as an illustration; I have come to really dislike talking about myself. But I think it has value in this context.

For better or for worse, I never experienced GD as GD prior to coming out to myself. Consciously, I didn't hate my gender assigned at birth; I hated myself. For whatever reason, GD bypassed focusing on my sex and went straight to my heart. The upside is that I was never suicidal; the downside is that I have only been half-alive for 60 years. However, since waking up as trans, I have experienced GD as GD. I can still remember the first occasion; my reaction was, "How weird!" That also happened on the second occasion. But not the third. On the third occasion, I was standing in front of the bathroom mirror after taking a shower, and suddenly felt revulsion over the male-thing I saw in the mirror. It was visceral; and it scared the daylights out of me, because I knew what it was and what experiencing it again ... and again, and again, and again ... could mean.

Fortunately, that experience has not repeated; but I'm glad I had it, because it gave me an insight into what hell many trans women live with. I can't imagine living with that feeling for any length of time. It must take great courage, and a profound will to live.

For me, GD manifested as self-loathing. I hated my name, hated my reflection, all of my life. I know this was GD, because, after coming out to myself, I was looking in the mirror one day and suddenly realized that I loved what I saw. This was unprecedented, and could only be attributed to one thing: I knew I was looking at a woman.

If my understanding of this personal experience is correct, then somewhere between my experience and the experiences of my sisters who suffer because of what they see in the mirror lies the real answer to this problem. Somehow, perception is the key. I suspect the problem has a lot to do with our socialization -- that our minds have been schooled to have many visual triggers that constantly whisper, or scream, "male ... male ... male ...," and that somehow these fuses must be defused, so that they lose their volatility.

I wonder if, understanding the problem this way, it might have cognates other places in psychological experience, where pathways to a solution are already known. Phobias, for example, can be defused by measured increased exposure to the thing feared. Maybe the answer lies in that direction. But somehow, it must be possible for my sisters to have the same experience that I do now when I look in the mirror. I find that I generally look into my own eyes; they say the eyes are the windows of the soul, and maybe that's why I see a woman now. When I look at myself, and realize my body is male, it makes me laugh. What a cosmic joke. It is my fervent desire that all of my sisters who are so distressed by their own appearance can come to feel the same about themselves.

Quote
The goal is to find mental peace and personal happiness to the greatest extent possible.  There are no hard and fast rules on how to do that.

I really liked this. I don't have a comment; I just wanted to say, I really liked it.

Non-passable transsexuals scare me. I am only somewhat passable and being around others will get me clocked. There was one at my gym. She looked like a woman, but I was confused when I heard her voice...very masculine. I had to do a double take to confirm she was really a woman, but trans. I made sure to stay away from her. I am scared others will view me like that and avoid me too.

I hated avoiding her, but the problem is I do not want to get clocked.

Quote from: jenpa on March 17, 2018, 07:32:45 PM
Non-passable transsexuals scare me. I am only somewhat passable and being around others will get me clocked. There was one at my gym. She looked like a woman, but I was confused when I heard her voice...very masculine. I had to do a double take to confirm she was really a woman, but trans. I made sure to stay away from her. I am scared others will view me like that and avoid me too.

I hated avoiding her, but the problem is I do not want to get clocked.

Usually, I don't take issue with what's posted and in my worst case situation, might crack a joke but not to intentionally hurt someone.

With that said, and I apologize if this offends you, but to distance oneself from others out of fear for themselves is a cop-out to me.  Kind of like the old biblical saying - He without sin cast the first stone. 

I personally have had 4 sessions at speech therapy thus far and am trying to get rid of the male command vocal.  I've been told I am doing good but hearing one's voice either in person or via recorded media is always different.

Very sad that the OP was jumped on so aggressively for discussing her own feelings and fears, and now feels unwelcome.

That's been my experience here too, and is why I now only tend to browse instead of writing anything. I thought I would log in to express that I too was horrified by the posts that replied to the OP as if she was some kind of monster for feeling this and daring to share it.

Treat them like they have leprosy????????

Quote from: MissMonique on March 15, 2018, 02:24:20 AM
Hello again all of you

So, I am in Amsterdam at the moment for a few days.  Enjoying the fact that no one really notices me and I can enjoy myself in a non-judgemental environment. 

However, I saw an older transwoman on the first day and I won't describe her in detail, but she looked a fright.  Like a man in drag in every bad way possible.

It scared the hell out of me.  I am 45 and non-passing, but I am hovering in the androgynous area.  It scares me to think that people might see me like I saw this poor woman.

I am so happy with my gender, but hate knowing that my appearance and presentation are not that feminine and I am still struggling with how to handle and present that.  I went to the hairdresser earlier in the week.  A floral blouse, women's bell bottom jeans, ankle boots with accessories.  I had foundation, mascara, lipstick, etc.  I was discretely feminine and neutral colours.  I was still consistently addressed as "sir".

I know that had I worn a skirt I'd just have been "sir" in a skirt.

Only been on HRT for a month or so, but just wondering what I need to do to tip the balance in my favour and am terrified of ending up like that woman.

what you feel is something we all feel or have felt. 

one thing i've learned though is to stop judging other queer people and how they look.  You don't know what her experiences are.  You don't know how she lives or how she feels about herself.  She may be a very happy person just the way she is.  The fact that you saw that woman and judged her the way you did is because you've been socialized to think badly of trans people and you have your own dysphoria eating away at you.  In the end all you can really work on is your personal dysphoria, not what others think of you.   

I have become a firm believer that we cannot ever be happy simply by becoming 100% passable to the cis world.  I know that some trans women want to transition and live a cis female life and never be clocked in public or outed ever again. There's nothing wrong with wanting that.  For some it's necessary for survival.

But there's also nothing wrong with being a 6 foot tall queer trans girl with stubble and masculine features.  Some of us will never appear to cis people as anything other than that.  And that's OK too. 

Quote from: Cassi on March 17, 2018, 10:17:40 PM
Usually, I don't take issue with what's posted and in my worst case situation, might crack a joke but not to intentionally hurt someone.

With that said, and I apologize if this offends you, but to distance oneself from others out of fear for themselves is a cop-out to me.  Kind of like the old biblical saying - He without sin cast the first stone. 

I personally have had 4 sessions at speech therapy thus far and am trying to get rid of the male command vocal.  I've been told I am doing good but hearing one's voice either in person or via recorded media is always different.

Maybe if I had more confidence in myself. But the problem if we were seen together is it would get me outed if I am not already and it might cause her problems too. Also it might cause problems for the locker room, etc. as other members might complain. I have to be on guard at all times as a trans woman. My goal as a transwoman is to pass, first and foremost. I don't want to be political and challenge societal norms; I just want to fit in and lead a normal life. Some of my friends have expressed hatred and disgust towards transsexuals (they do not know I am one). So it is better if transsexuals do not appear together until bigotry is eliminated.

when i started my transition last year I agonized over the fact that i would never really be passable.  Like the last three decades of shame and eating disorders it was starting right at the beginning of my transition to fill me with anxiety and shame.  I am too tall, shoulders too wide, head too big, etc.  I can manipulate myself only so far.  I will never be mistaken for a cis woman.  Even after i have my surgeries will be seen by some people as a "failure."

I had to find a way to be OK with that and instead focus on my own internal life and finding out who I am, not who other people see. I think i've made a little bit of progress.  The way I view it is that if i'm going to look to strangers like a trans woman I'm going to make sure that they remember me, that they see someone amazing, smiling and proud of who they are. 

I am proud to be a queer trans woman.  In a way I don't want anyone to mistake for a cis girl.  I lived my life before as a cisgender person and it was horrible. 

I think Becca is spot on. We have to accept and love ourselves. I'm deathly afraid of transitioning and looking like some freak. But is that fair? No. It's my own internal trans-phobia that says "freak". Some people will genuinely see us as freaks. Others will marvel at the bravery we had to become our genuine selves. Even many cismen and ciswomen will look upon us with respect or compassion for who we are. The fear is legitimate inside the OP and me, but it's an undesirable emotion and needs to go. Our perspective is all wrong. I intend to work on changing mine.

i have learned that the people who matter to me in my life think of me as brave.  I recently came out and they told me so. Not everyone is as lucky as i am.  But being called brave is actually very hard for me to hear.  Because i've always thought of myself as a freak and unworthy of love or happiness because of it. 

Quote from: Becca Kay on March 17, 2018, 11:23:10 PM
I had to find a way to be OK with that and instead focus on my own internal life and finding out who I am, not who other people see. I think i've made a little bit of progress.  The way I view it is that if i'm going to look to strangers like a trans woman I'm going to make sure that they remember me, that they see someone amazing, smiling and proud of who they are. 

I am proud to be a queer trans woman.  In a way I don't want anyone to mistake for a cis girl.  I lived my life before as a cisgender person and it was horrible. 

Yes! I went to an event today in my town when someone I only met once in passing shouted out my name (my current one).  I asked him how he knew my name, and he mentioned when we met.  Now, I've met people with amazing social memories and maybe that's all that is going on here - but I also know people notice me these days.  It's just part of my life, so I might as well embrace it.  I've seen enough people start noticing me that I know I'm the local transwoman in their eyes.  So be it.

There's a passage in a teen novel, Divergent, about two of the characters. One of the characters, who lived her life denying herself until this point in the novel, was being "made over" by her friend. She told her friend that she would never be pretty. Her friend responded, "Who cares about pretty? I'm going for noticeable."  Well, I definitely have noticeable!  I might as well own that and find every way to use that to my advantage.

The other option? Depression. Slow death. I lived that long enough.

The major theme or saying around here is that everybody's ride is different.  Some of us were of average height and build for a male and now we're dealing with the awkwardness of becoming female.

Being who is was meant to be is important to me.  I'm not doing it for anyone here or for that matter anyone else.  I have enjoyed making new friends and "transisters" here and I'll always cherish that. 

I think that being worried how others see us is a cop-out to what truly needs to be accomplished and that's finding our happiness.  Like the old saying goes "No one can make you happy other than yourself".

For sure there's uncertainty and I for one have that hanging over my head.  However, I am continuing to try to progress as I feel comfortable.  Sure it would be great if HRT was an overnight pill - take it and wake up all changed but it isn't.

Another issue is our "Humanity".  I feel sorry for the woman who didn't pass but also feel that who has or had the right to say she did or didn't if this makes sense.

History is full of people who turned their heads and let someone else pay for the same sins so to speak that they shared.

sooooo here we go.... jump on if you want

Am I a raving beauty?....no

Do I feel I am beautiful ?..... yes

Do I let what others think dictate how I feel?..... I really try  not to

Am I regretful of transition ..... not a chance

The language policing here is outstanding. If the OP feels that passing as gender typical woman is a requirement for her successful transition, that's her definition of what a successful transition is to her and nobody should be trying to change it just because it doesn't fit your own ideals. Everybody has their own mind image of what a successful transition is, to some it's being out and proud, to others is to be  a passing, deep stealth woman and then there's all the shades in between. I agree her choice of words was poor and it did sound a bit condescending at times, but fact is, society as whole judges Trans people as group much more harshly than she ever did in her comments.

People don't like that she defined a successful transition as living as a passing woman, but then came here saying transition is about inner peace and shoving those ideas down her throat. It really is not like you are being much better, you just trying to substitue one idea for another which you find to be better. And if you really are secure about your transition as a whole, then you don't need to attack someone's ideals about their own.

Quote from: jenpa on March 17, 2018, 07:32:45 PM
Non-passable transsexuals scare me. I am only somewhat passable and being around others will get me clocked. There was one at my gym. She looked like a woman, but I was confused when I heard her voice...very masculine. I had to do a double take to confirm she was really a woman, but trans. I made sure to stay away from her. I am scared others will view me like that and avoid me too.

I hated avoiding her, but the problem is I do not want to get clocked.

I have a " non passable" trans friend. She's 17 and has only been on hrt for 10 months now. I met her when she came into work to have her hair done. I've gone shopping with her and been to the mall with her. She does get outed a lot. But I've never been outed along with her. Not yet anyway. I try to be as stealth as possible but if I did get outed because I was with her that would really suck but I wouldn't stop going out in public with her. The only support she has is her mom but her mom works a lot so she really doesn't have anyone else. To say " I don't want to be seen in public with you because you don't pass and might get me outed" would be really mean and totally messed up. I couldn't do that to someone.

Quote from: Becca Kay on March 17, 2018, 11:23:10 PM
when i started my transition last year I agonized over the fact that i would never really be passable.  Like the last three decades of shame and eating disorders it was starting right at the beginning of my transition to fill me with anxiety and shame.  I am too tall, shoulders too wide, head too big, etc.  I can manipulate myself only so far.  I will never be mistaken for a cis woman.  Even after i have my surgeries will be seen by some people as a "failure."

I had to find a way to be OK with that and instead focus on my own internal life and finding out who I am, not who other people see. I think i've made a little bit of progress.  The way I view it is that if i'm going to look to strangers like a trans woman I'm going to make sure that they remember me, that they see someone amazing, smiling and proud of who they are. 

I am proud to be a queer trans woman.  In a way I don't want anyone to mistake for a cis girl.  I lived my life before as a cisgender person and it was horrible.

Thank you for sharing this.

In the year or so that I've been out to myself, my appreciation of beauty has changed a lot. I find that I don't need to make a mental adjustment anymore, when looking at a trans woman, to evaluate her according to a special standard for trans women that takes her genotype into account. Passing has nothing to do with it. By conventional standards, there are some very beautiful trans women; but I find I don't care about that anymore. I care about the person. The fact that she doesn't look like a cis woman is irrelevant to me. Trans women who don't pass and aren't beautiful by conventional standards can be beautiful nonetheless, because of the person behind the mask.

I think this is more than a trans truth; I think it's a human truth. We experience it differently, because of our peculiar circumstances; but I imagine there are many men who married trophy wives, and women who married trophy husbands, who came to regret their decisions, after discovering that looks are only skin-deep and it's the person behind them that matters.

Speaking purely selfishly, I love this development in my perception. It is wonderful to appreciate beauty that others do not see. It's like having a wonderful secret that you can't share. But I wish I could. Maybe if people could see this beauty that I see, they wouldn't be so easily pushed into personal crisis by their own failure to pass.

Quote from: Aurorasky on March 18, 2018, 04:33:10 AM
The language policing here is outstanding. If the OP feels that passing as gender typical woman is a requirement for her successful transition, that's her definition of what a successful transition is to her and nobody should be trying to change it just because it doesn't fit your own ideals. Everybody has their own mind image of what a successful transition is, to some it's being out and proud, to others is to be  a passing, deep stealth woman and then there's all the shades in between. I agree her choice of words was poor and it did sound a bit condescending at times, but fact is, society as whole judges Trans people as group much more harshly than she ever did in her comments.

People don't like that she defined a successful transition as living as a passing woman, but then came here saying transition is about inner peace and shoving those ideas down her throat. It really is not like you are being much better, you just trying to substitue one idea for another which you find to be better. And if you really are secure about your transition as a whole, then you don't need to attack someone's ideals about their own.

if someone feels their path is to be completely passable and not recognizable as trans there's nothing wrong with that. I only have issue with how people look at others, at me, because I don't choose to or cannot because of factors out of my control, attain that same result.

If you go through all the pain and struggle of being trans I hope you learn to have empathy for others.  I would also hope we all feel some kind of connection to each other, and that we don't put each other down or avoid one another because some of us cannot attain a certain look, or voice, or mannerism.

That's all I'm trying to say.  If we cannot be each other's allies who will stand by us? 

Quote from: amandam on March 17, 2018, 11:31:54 PMI think Becca is spot on. We have to accept and love ourselves. I'm deathly afraid of transitioning and looking like some freak. But is that fair? No. It's my own internal trans-phobia that says "freak". Some people will genuinely see us as freaks. Others will marvel at the bravery we had to become our genuine selves. Even many cismen and ciswomen will look upon us with respect or compassion for who we are. The fear is legitimate inside the OP and me, but it's an undesirable emotion and needs to go. Our perspective is all wrong. I intend to work on changing mine.

It's one thing to fear being seen as a freak, and yes, that's legitimately transphobic.

It's quite another thing to fear being misgendered.  The feelings of gender dysphoria are real, and they're not going to go away with a snap of the fingers.  It goes away by changing ourselves (our bodies and presentations thereof) enough that we elicit correct gendering from ourselves...

...and other people.  If we're asking other people to use certain pronouns and not others, let's not pretend we don't care about how other people relate to us. 

Quote from: jenpa on March 17, 2018, 07:32:45 PMNon-passable transsexuals scare me. I am only somewhat passable and being around others will get me clocked. There was one at my gym. She looked like a woman, but I was confused when I heard her voice...very masculine. I had to do a double take to confirm she was really a woman, but trans. I made sure to stay away from her. I am scared others will view me like that and avoid me too.

I hated avoiding her, but the problem is I do not want to get clocked.

Cis women aren't afraid of being clocked. Why?  The thought doesn't even occur.

Do not be afraid of trans women.

You look out of the kitchen window and you shake your head and say low,
"If I could believe that stuff, I'd say that woman has a halo, "
And I look out and say, "Yeah, she's really blonde,"
And then I go outside to join the others -- I am the others!

Oh, and that's not easy, I don't know what you saw, I want somebody who sees me.
I will not be afraid of women, I will not be afraid of women.

-- Dar Williams, "As Cool As I Am"

Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 18, 2018, 04:31:38 PM
Cis women aren't afraid of being clocked. Why?  The thought doesn't even occur.

Do not be afraid of trans women.

You look out of the kitchen window and you shake your head and say low,
"If I could believe that stuff, I'd say that woman has a halo, "
And I look out and say, "Yeah, she's really blonde,"
And then I go outside to join the others -- I am the others!

Oh, and that's not easy, I don't know what you saw, I want somebody who sees me.
I will not be afraid of women, I will not be afraid of women.

-- Dar Williams, "As Cool As I Am"

Vanity says the Preacher!

Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 18, 2018, 04:13:55 PM
It's one thing to fear being seen as a freak, and yes, that's legitimately transphobic.

Actually the is a realistic concern (although less so than it once was)... More than a few 'cisgendered' people see us as freaks... and teh consequences of THAT is the concern.

When I was a kid with my mother driving through NYC we would sometime see obvious T*'s on the street and my mother would say things like "You name it, and I'll kill it".

These days there is a lot more acceptance, but being obviously readable will make it harder to get many types of jobs in many places and strongly affect one's social life so there can be a lot more consequence than the discomfort being misgendered causes internally. Humans are social animals and innately want to be accepted.

I don't pass 100% (can't because of build) but I live in a relatively accepting area...

As for being around other's less passable... I know that can get one read ... I had a friend during transition that passed less well than I did... and there was an incident where I very obviously did get read because of her proximity...

Early on we were going to the movies and she drove. I got out of the car before she parked so she arrive a little after I did at the theater... I had some people pass by me the had no reaction... then they saw her walking down this way... After that very obviously turned around to look back at me.

That did not stop me from going places with her. While I prefer not being seen as T*, as I was not stealth and knew I likely could never be, I did not my let discomfort stop me from spending the with a very nice and intelligent person.

BTW in general from what I've seen in the 3D community, people of similar passibility are more likely to hang out together than those  that differ significantly in that area. That likely has a lot do to with commonality of experience.

- karen

It's an unfortunate reality, that people who don't fit the binary gender model of society are likely to experience disapproval and discrimination of one sort or another.  That's not to say that gender nonconforming individuals can't be happy.  We find ways of making the necessary adjustments in order to survive.  We usually deal with the unwelcome attitudes and reactions of others through avoidance.  Remaining in the closet is an effective though dissatisfying avoidance behavior.  Finding trans-friendly places to live and work is another.  For the more fortunate among us, passing as our preferred gender plus nondisclosure is the ultimate avoidance strategy.  But even that can extract a heavy price.  No matter our particular circumstances, in time we learn to shake off the hurtful behavior of the intolerant among us, and construct defenses to protect ourselves as best we can.  It's part of the process of gender transitioning.  No one said it would be easy.

Quote from: Aurorasky on March 18, 2018, 04:33:10 AM
The language policing here is outstanding. If the OP feels that passing as gender typical woman is a requirement for her successful transition, that's her definition of what a successful transition is to her and nobody should be trying to change it just because it doesn't fit your own ideals. Everybody has their own mind image of what a successful transition is, to some it's being out and proud, to others is to be  a passing, deep stealth woman and then there's all the shades in between. I agree her choice of words was poor and it did sound a bit condescending at times, but fact is, society as whole judges Trans people as group much more harshly than she ever did in her comments.

People don't like that she defined a successful transition as living as a passing woman, but then came here saying transition is about inner peace and shoving those ideas down her throat. It really is not like you are being much better, you just trying to substitue one idea for another which you find to be better. And if you really are secure about your transition as a whole, then you don't need to attack someone's ideals about their own.

Exactly this.

You want the world to be inclusive, but some of you can't even do that to other people here.

Sonja.

I'm 21 days full fem. am I miss gendered- of course I am.
Have I been properly gendered- yes. Have I been with people that have known me for years and not recognize me- yes.
Am I perfect- HELL NO
That being said we all have our own vision and I for one really don't give a rats ass what others may say or think. I was 60 years not being me and 50 years with no emotions and major sexual issues from abuse.
I can't and won't let anyone determine the rest of my life and due to my past I can't and won't judge others for how they run their lives. If they pass or not it's no concern of mine as long as they feel good in themselves. If I'm outed so what. It will happen lots, I know some people's dysphoria make them need to be or feel perfect and that's their vision.
The start of this tread was IMHO a poorly worded comment but I doubt it was meant to be hurtful. We needed to clarify and understand but to rip and tear at someone makes us worse than the original comment. We needed to comment positively and teach or educate or take the time to learn where the person was coming from.
Not trying to be offensive to anyone or harmful. Just my feelings

Quote from: Sonja on March 18, 2018, 09:09:59 PM
Exactly this.

You want the world to be inclusive, but some of you can't even do that to other people here.

Sonja.

I've missed you Sonja!  Wear ya bean?

Sometimes we have to challenge our fears, sometimes openly, no matter how difficult, so we can all get to understand them.
Not a singe one of us is perfect, not a single one of us knows how to successfully transition or has all the answers. All we can do is support each other, learn from each other in the hope of becoming better, more rounded people.
There is beauty in everyone, even me, especially you. :)

Peace and love and all that good stuff,

Sadie

Quote from: Shy on March 19, 2018, 06:40:52 AM
Sometimes we have to challenge our fears, sometimes openly, no matter how difficult, so we can all get to understand them.

QuoteNot a singe one of us is perfect, not a single one of us knows how to successfully transition or has all the answers.

All we can do is support each other, learn from each other in the hope of becoming better, more rounded people.
There is beauty in everyone, even me, especially you. :)

Peace and love and all that good stuff,

Sadie

Or each of us is exactly perfect and ultimately we are the only ones who know how we as individuals need to transition.

Peace and Love back to ya,

Sadie :-)

Quote from: Allie Bee on March 15, 2018, 03:13:33 AM
.
Also to say "unsuccessful transwoman" is kinda hurtful. Like at what point is she successful? As long as she's happy, shes successful, regardless of how she looks. When i came out i always said, "Id rather be an ugly woman than the sexiest man" so maybe shes happy with what shes achieved? Or maybe she Just started like you? OR maybe she IS a man in drag? Just a drag queen? Also could've been one of those "organic transwomen" who dont take HRT (only heard of one of them around here). Best advice i can give is to not compare yourself to others hun, unless its to better/improve yourself. Dont put yourself down based on others looks or even their opinions. You're strong af just for getting this far. & you have a long way to go hun, trust me, youll see many good changes sooner than later. Just work on what you Can control til then;)  ♡♡♡

Well said Al;lie Bee. ditto ...... I feel you on this tho. I still to this day do not like to go to drag shows or be around TV's and drag stuff. I am still insecure in my core, tho I try to hide it and rise above it. I do not want to be clocked ever again and the instances these days usually only occur on the phone cuz of severe testosterone poisoning as a child  lol
I feel you, but I have to get past it. Matter of fact my partner and I are going to drag show during Pride Week in Pensacola this year. I'm gonna do it cuz it's fun and I like stuffing dollars on the girls, and my partner has fun doing same, and it will be a good thing for me regarding this very issue..
Enjoy your week.

Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 18, 2018, 04:31:38 PM
Cis women aren't afraid of being clocked. Why?  The thought doesn't even occur.

Hi Sophia,

I'm curious about your statement.  There are cis-women with very masculine features that get accused of being trans.  I would suspect some have a fear of being mistakenly clocked.  I would be interested if anyone has ever met a cis-women who has had this happen to them and worries about this sort of situation.

Take care,
Paige :)


   

Quote from: Paige on March 19, 2018, 12:24:39 PM
Hi Sophia,

I'm curious about your statement.  There are cis-women with very masculine features that get accused of being trans.  I would suspect some have a fear of being mistakenly clocked.  I would be interested if anyone has ever met a cis-women who has had this happen to them and worries about this sort of situation.

Mmm, good point.  I'm sure there a few out there.  I wonder to what extent if any they feel gender dysphoria about the situation.

In conversations I've had with butch dykes, many years ago, a couple said they got misgendered on several occasions, but neither of them had masculine voice; all it took was to speak up to reverse the gender assignment.  One was highly amused by it all, the other (who let her chin hairs grow out on purpose) was just annoyed.  Neither of them was afraid.

I have a good friend who gets misgendered every once in awhile. She is a cis woman, and one of the few friends I have who knows that I'm trans.  She admits it happens because she's not girly at all, she always wears very plain pants and shirts, she never wears any makeup, and she has a bit of a stocky body frame.

But she also told me that it never bothers her when she gets misgendered. She doesn't care when or if it happens, because she knows she's a woman, so why should she care if she gets misgendered?  :) Besides, all she has to do is talk, and the person who misgendered her instantly knows she's a woman, because her voice obviously sounds female. But yeah, she's simply not bothered by any misgendering, at all.

The fear of being misgendered is something that only we as trans women/men deal with.

Quote from: echo7 on March 19, 2018, 02:53:09 PM
I have a good friend who gets misgendered every once in awhile. She is a cis woman, and one of the few friends I have who knows that I'm trans.  She admits it happens because she's not girly at all, she always wears very plain pants and shirts, she never wears any makeup, and she has a bit of a stocky body frame.

But she also told me that it never bothers her when she gets misgendered. She doesn't care when or if it happens, because she knows she's a woman, so why should she care if she gets misgendered?  :) Besides, all she has to do is talk, and the person who misgendered her instantly knows she's a woman, because her voice obviously sounds female. But yeah, she's simply not bothered by any misgendering, at all.

The fear of being misgendered is something that only we as trans women/men deal with.

I was frequently "miss and ma'am"d when I was male and it bothered the hell out of me. So another blanket statement shot down. Most people will be uncomfortable when misgendered, it isn't exclusive to transgender people.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 19, 2018, 03:07:49 PM
I was frequently "miss and ma'am"d when I was male and it bothered the hell out of me. So another blanket statement shot down. Most people will be uncomfortable when misgendered, it isn't exclusive to transgender people.

Hugs, Devlyn

May sound weird but I think there's a few good points that lead to the possiblity of gender identification being subliminal as well as direct.  I've been told my voice can span and on more than a few occasions I've heard someone say, say thank you to the nice lady and my response on being thanked had been your welcome in my most low voice, lol. More often than not it has led me to wonder why?

I have short hair and I don't get gendered by people. I think that's not bad for just under 6 months on hrt, but bad since I'm ready for my female life. I think I'll just feel better getting "miss".

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Quote from: Sonja on March 18, 2018, 09:09:59 PM
Exactly this.

You want the world to be inclusive, but some of you can't even do that to other people here.

Sonja.

The first time I went to meet with my Endo at the VA and I was waiting, there was a woman in the lobby that I think was trans.  While I try to be cordial this person kept asking everyone personal questions, where you from, who you with, why are you hear - all kinda personal issues.  Her dress and mannerisms were a little too much for me so I didn't strike up a conversation or follow her into one. 

Quote from: Allison S on March 19, 2018, 03:20:14 PM
I have short hair and I don't get gendered by people. I think that's not bad for just under 6 months on hrt, but bad since I'm ready for my female life. I think I'll just feel better getting "miss".

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Okay Missy (in my most quirkish voice), good for you :)

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 19, 2018, 03:07:49 PM
I was frequently "miss and ma'am"d when I was male and it bothered the hell out of me. So another blanket statement shot down. Most people will be uncomfortable when misgendered, it isn't exclusive to transgender people.

Hugs, Devlyn

Yes, you have "shot me down". Congratulations, you win.  I'm done here.  "Hugs" to you too. /s

Quote from: echo7 on March 19, 2018, 03:38:58 PM
Yes, you have "shot me down". Congratulations, you win.  I'm done here.  "Hugs" to you too. /s

I don't win when someone can't handle a correction to something they said. They lose.

QuoteQuote from: echo7 on Today at 03:38:58 pm
    Yes, you have "shot me down". Congratulations, you win.  I'm done here.  "Hugs" to you too. /s

QuoteQuote from Devlyn Marie on Today at 03:47:59 pm
I don't win when someone can't handle a correction to something they said. They lose.

Devlyn:  You are very correct... these things need conclude in a win/win outcome. 
If one screws up they need to "own it" and then try make things right.   
Then it is up to the other one to accept their effort to correct things and then both parties need put that episode behind them and move on with forgiveness.
Just my opinion!!!
Hugs to Echo7 and to Devlyn,
Danielle

Quote from: Paige on March 19, 2018, 12:24:39 PM
Hi Sophia,

I'm curious about your statement.  There are cis-women with very masculine features that get accused of being trans.  I would suspect some have a fear of being mistakenly clocked.  I would be interested if anyone has ever met a cis-women who has had this happen to them and worries about this sort of situation.

Take care,
Paige :)


   

I work with a woman who I presumed was trans. When she shared with me that she was going to have her arm implant changed I presumed it was some kind of hormone thing. It turned out she was talking about a contraceptive device. Like I say, her voice, bone structure, everything, made me wrongly assume.

I didn't discuss it more with her because I didn't want to admit what I thought, and I didn't want to get fully into a discussion that might result in her thinking 'ok, why was that your first thought?', and leading to her knowing all about me.

I think that this topic has run its course.

It has demonstrated the gamut of frailty, prejudice and tolerance that exists on the Forum.

It has shown how we can hurt each other with ill considered phrasing, at least I hope they were ill considered. It also has shown that we can support and discuss contentious topics but that prejudice even amongst ourselves can be close to the surface.

Maybe we can learn from this thread to appreciate people and not to be quick to judge.

Cindy
Forum Admin.

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