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Hypothetically speaking, what would you most likely do as a MTF transitioning for quite a while and you now find yourself in a strong and wonderful relationship with another woman, it is getting very serious, and she appears to be very supportive of you, BUT she says she would prefer yourself remaining a biological male, legally and otherwise, to have a "normal appearing couple relationship" if you two get married because it would make things go smoother with her family?  Yes, you can express your femininity but it would no longer be good for you to be working as a female, as you would be a man to the world?

This seems like a terrible situation to complete your MTF transition as you have been moving towards this real life gender transition.  But the woman you fell in love with you want to do almost anything for her.  She is honest, loving, you have great sex, and a lot of fun together as yourself, as a woman.  She is honest, smart, beautiful, and you feel very fortunate to have her return love to you. 

So what you say on this hypothetical situation, this quandary?


Chrissy

Show her the door.

If she cannot accept ME as ME, then it won't work. I am done playing that role for others.
I would ask her to consider reversing her role. Maybe she should consider transitioning to male. I would be willing to accept her in whatever role. But don't force me to change if you won't consider changing yourself too.

@LoriDee  @ChrissyRyan
Changing for someone else, especially a romantic entanglement,
is a doomed proposition.

I am not changing my gender, so either take me
as I am or look elsewhere.

What LoriDee stated is EXACTLY how I would
have responded...word for word.

Hugs, Danielle

Quote from: LoriDee on July 07, 2024, 03:07:20 PMShow her the door.

If she cannot accept ME as ME, then it won't work. I am done playing that role for others.
I would ask her to consider reversing her role. Maybe she should consider transitioning to male. I would be willing to accept her in whatever role. But don't force me to change if you won't consider changing yourself too.

Hi Chrissy

One cannot change their Gender Period.  On the surface it seems the partner is supportive, when in fact she is definitely not supportive.  She wants her partner to be a biological male, does not allow a legal name change? Wants a 'normal couple relationship, wants a marriage that looks like a normal male and female marriage and not a gay marriage to her parents and wants her partner to work as a male.  This partner seems to be a normal heterosexual female and wants a normal heterosexual male, regardless of the males feminine traits.  So again she is not supportive.

The hypothetically MTF you have mentioned has been transitioning for quiet awhile and wants to go further.  Which brings me to this point in regards to this relationship.  The MTF is dammed if they continue the relationship and are dammed if they don't.

I have mentioned in my posts that I sacrificed everything (in retrospect).  Yes, I know I was not in a relationship at the time.  However, I do know that with hindsight that there were two men in my life at the time.  One of them, I finally realised that I was in love with him at the time I changed my life around and I could not do anything about it and it hurt me deeply.  Yes, again I sacrificed and gambled everything and I won everything and achieved so much more.

Which brings me to the point on what this MTF should do?  Lori and Danielle have already stated what one should do in this hypothetical case.

Lori's post:

Quote from: LoriDee on July 07, 2024, 03:07:20 PMShow her the door.

If she cannot accept ME as ME, then it won't work. I am done playing that role for others.
I would ask her to consider reversing her role. Maybe she should consider transitioning to male. I would be willing to accept her in whatever role. But don't force me to change if you won't consider changing yourself too.

and Danielle's Post

Quote from: Northern Star Girl on July 07, 2024, 06:26:48 PMChanging for someone else, especially a romantic entanglement,
is a doomed proposition.

I am not changing my gender, so either take me
as I am or look elsewhere.

What LoriDee stated is EXACTLY how I would
have responded...word for word.

So, I'm in the same boat as Lori and Danielle, in other words I agree with them completely in what they have said.  Move on, yes the MTF's heart will be broken, but the consequences of not doing so, can or could be costly in the long run.

Love and Hugs
Sarah B
Official Greeter
@ChrissyRyan
@Northern Star Girl
@LoriDee

I tried this approach to a relationship when I foolishly believed I had a choice of which way to go, and it did work for 20 years, but eventually the stress of dysphoria caught up with me, and I had to complete transition to survive. I put so much effort into saving my relationship, but she left me anyway. So, overall, the result was the same for our relationship, but conceding to her wishes took me to a heart attack and 2 cardiac arrests. Transitioning 20 years earlier would have produced much better results, and maybe given me time to find a new relationship as me.

A relationship based on denying a person's gender will likely sour and fail, so is the time spent in stress worth it? I believe it is better to embrace your true self and make the most of your life.

Hugs,

Allie

Control issues are a huge red flag. 

Even as no-op/no hrt I felt it best not to get into a relationship while I'm still sorting stuff out.

Marion

Hi Everyone

Marion said:

Quote from: Maid Marion on July 07, 2024, 09:41:43 PMControl issues are a huge red flag. 

Even as no-op/no hrt I felt it best not to get into a relationship while I'm still sorting stuff out.

Marion

This a thousand times this, the whole post.  For me there was no intimate relationship until after surgery.  Thank you so much Marion.

Love and Hugs
Sarah B
Official Greeter
@Maid Marion

Its Hypothetical but not very realistic.. the gatekeeping starts long before any steps to transition are taken if there is no support.. and if you already were on that path, finding someone who did not want to join you would not lead to a relationship..
Instead, what happens is what most people here have reminisced about.. you hold back the real you for years and years.. for many reasons, maybe society, maybe you just did not understand yourself.. and then, when you know what must be done, then that is where the gatekeeping is implemented.
It is the hardest advice to give someone in the world.. but if the person you are in a relationship does not understand that gender dysphoria is a serious condition, curable only by transition and, instead, thinks it is just a phase or something you can 'get over'.. then you need to break that relationship as it will only end in more tears, heartbreak and ill health.
 Obviously, I am only addressing people who are dealing with gender dysphoria here. Gender dysphoria can be lessened by supportive environments and knowledge about treatment to reduce the difference between your inner gender identity and sex assigned at birth. It is exasperated by lack of support and denial of treatment..

This situation kinda happened to me. ok not exactly the same situation, but similar

Before I had bottom surgery, I was dating a guy. He was my first boyfriend, before that I assumed I was lesbian.

I was full time presenting as female, i had being on hormones for about 2 years, so I was quite a way down the road of transition, so I was passing well. Since I am a girly girl, this helped my passing

He was a deeply closeted gay man, so I was the perfect girlfriend for him, to his family and public I was girl so nothing to see here, but the fact I had a penis appealed to the gay side of him. Things started to get complicated when things started to get physical as i did want him to touch me down there as I did not want to get reminded I was born male. The final nail in the relationship, was when I secured my appointment for bottom surgery. I was so excited and he was angry, he accused me of selling out and bowing to societies definition of a woman and I was perfect the way I was.

He knew my plan all along was to get bottom surgery,when I started hormones that was always the plan, I knew I needed a vagina between my legs to feel 100% female.

Well we broke up. That relationship was about 9 months long (we took it slowly, due him being a closeted gay man, and me getting use to the idea of having a boyfriend). Yes that relationship was doomed from the start.

Back to the question, in this Hypothetical but not very realistic, situation.. the relationship will be doomed. Its only so long you can pretend everything is fine. you need to be you in the relationship.

When I met my husband, I was honest from the beginning, that I was born male as I was post op at this time. I did not want to build a relationship on a lie.

   I'll just echo what the others have said. The relationship is doomed, DOOMED from the start. After the euphoria of great sex and a new love wear off, GD will rear its ugly head and all the anxieties and problems will come back.
   When I came out to my wife I told her if she wanted to split, I understand. I loved her but I HAD to do this for me! Long story short she has learned to except me as I am. :)  

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on July 07, 2024, 01:22:53 PMHypothetically speaking, what would you most likely do as a MTF transitioning for quite a while and you now find yourself in a strong and wonderful relationship with another woman, it is getting very serious, and she appears to be very supportive of you, BUT she says she would prefer yourself remaining a biological male, legally and otherwise, to have a "normal appearing couple relationship" if you two get married because it would make things go smoother with her family?  Yes, you can express your femininity but it would no longer be good for you to be working as a female, as you would be a man to the world?

This seems like a terrible situation to complete your MTF transition as you have been moving towards this real life gender transition.  But the woman you fell in love with you want to do almost anything for her.  She is honest, loving, you have great sex, and a lot of fun together as yourself, as a woman.  She is honest, smart, beautiful, and you feel very fortunate to have her return love to you. 

So what you say on this hypothetical situation, this quandary?


Chrissy

This is a no brainer for me, Chrissy.

If someone I'm with doesn't understand why I am who am, and cannot get me for who I am.. I don't care if she were the best sex since pre-Trump Stormy Daniels... that isn't the point of a relationship.

For me it is a meeting of souls, pure and simple. It's someone you find solace in. Someone who finds solace in you. Lust is a very long way down the list to love. And I will also say, people here understand that more than most. Take it from personal experience.

If you base the premise of your relationship on a lie, or a concession... it will never, EVER end well. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty is in the eye of the person who will never ask you to be someone else because it suits their world more. And vice versa. It's a rare thing, admittedly, but when you have, or find it... you hold on to it. Because these are the people, and you are the person, which matters.

That's my belief.

It is pretty hypothetical for me, as I was already married when I transitioned, and my wife is okay with who I am.  But I agree with the consensus above: the relationship as described would not work.  The earlier the person breaks it off, the better.

I do know someone in almost this position.  After a lifetime of crossdressing and being gender-fluid, she has finally realized that she is trans-feminine .  But her wife is not on board with it, so she has to present masculine at home.  Given that she has started HRT and is loving it, I foresee "interesting" times in her home life.  So far, she is making it work, and is able to present as feminine everywhere except at home, including at work.  I wish her the best, but her path is not for me.  And in the long run, perhaps not for her either.

Yeah that's a no go. I would not do this. Even if I wanted to it wouldn't work. I tried this route for most of my life and it led to misery. Thus I transitioned. Not going back to try it again, thanks.

Quote from: LoriDee on July 07, 2024, 03:07:20 PMShow her the door.

If she cannot accept ME as ME, then it won't work. I am done playing that role for others.
I would ask her to consider reversing her role. Maybe she should consider transitioning to male. I would be willing to accept her in whatever role. But don't force me to change if you won't consider changing yourself too.

Thank you for your thoughts on this Lori.

Chrissy

Quote from: Northern Star Girl on July 07, 2024, 06:26:48 PM@LoriDee  @ChrissyRyan
Changing for someone else, especially a romantic entanglement,
is a doomed proposition.

I am not changing my gender, so either take me
as I am or look elsewhere.

What LoriDee stated is EXACTLY how I would
have responded...word for word.

Hugs, Danielle

Danielle,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Chrissy

Quote from: Sarah B on July 07, 2024, 08:13:04 PMHi Chrissy

One cannot change their Gender Period.  On the surface it seems the partner is supportive, when in fact she is definitely not supportive.  She wants her partner to be a biological male, does not allow a legal name change? Wants a 'normal couple relationship, wants a marriage that looks like a normal male and female marriage and not a gay marriage to her parents and wants her partner to work as a male.  This partner seems to be a normal heterosexual female and wants a normal heterosexual male, regardless of the males feminine traits.  So again she is not supportive.

The hypothetically MTF you have mentioned has been transitioning for quiet awhile and wants to go further.  Which brings me to this point in regards to this relationship.  The MTF is dammed if they continue the relationship and are dammed if they don't.

I have mentioned in my posts that I sacrificed everything (in retrospect).  Yes, I know I was not in a relationship at the time.  However, I do know that with hindsight that there were two men in my life at the time.  One of them, I finally realised that I was in love with him at the time I changed my life around and I could not do anything about it and it hurt me deeply.  Yes, again I sacrificed and gambled everything and I won everything and achieved so much more.

Which brings me to the point on what this MTF should do?  Lori and Danielle have already stated what one should do in this hypothetical case.

Lori's post:

and Danielle's Post

So, I'm in the same boat as Lori and Danielle, in other words I agree with them completely in what they have said.  Move on, yes the MTF's heart will be broken, but the consequences of not doing so, can or could be costly in the long run.

Love and Hugs
Sarah B
Official Greeter
@ChrissyRyan
@Northern Star Girl
@LoriDee

Sarah,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Chrissy

Quote from: Allie Jayne on July 07, 2024, 08:52:28 PMI tried this approach to a relationship when I foolishly believed I had a choice of which way to go, and it did work for 20 years, but eventually the stress of dysphoria caught up with me, and I had to complete transition to survive. I put so much effort into saving my relationship, but she left me anyway. So, overall, the result was the same for our relationship, but conceding to her wishes took me to a heart attack and 2 cardiac arrests. Transitioning 20 years earlier would have produced much better results, and maybe given me time to find a new relationship as me.

A relationship based on denying a person's gender will likely sour and fail, so is the time spent in stress worth it? I believe it is better to embrace your true self and make the most of your life.

Hugs,

Allie

Allie,

Oh my, you suffered a lot. 

Also, thank you for your thoughts on this.

Chrissy

Quote from: Maid Marion on July 07, 2024, 09:41:43 PMControl issues are a huge red flag. 

Even as no-op/no hrt I felt it best not to get into a relationship while I'm still sorting stuff out.

Marion

Marion,


I thank you for your thoughts on this.

Chrissy

Quote from: Sarah B on July 07, 2024, 10:24:42 PMHi Everyone

Marion said:

This a thousand times this, the whole post.  For me there was no intimate relationship until after surgery.  Thank you so much Marion.

Love and Hugs
Sarah B
Official Greeter
@Maid Marion

That is an interesting perspective.  In this hypothetical situation, it is well past the no relationship stage though.

Chrissy

Quote from: SoupSarah on July 07, 2024, 10:35:00 PMIts Hypothetical but not very realistic.. the gatekeeping starts long before any steps to transition are taken if there is no support.. and if you already were on that path, finding someone who did not want to join you would not lead to a relationship..
Instead, what happens is what most people here have reminisced about.. you hold back the real you for years and years.. for many reasons, maybe society, maybe you just did not understand yourself.. and then, when you know what must be done, then that is where the gatekeeping is implemented.
It is the hardest advice to give someone in the world.. but if the person you are in a relationship does not understand that gender dysphoria is a serious condition, curable only by transition and, instead, thinks it is just a phase or something you can 'get over'.. then you need to break that relationship as it will only end in more tears, heartbreak and ill health.
 Obviously, I am only addressing people who are dealing with gender dysphoria here. Gender dysphoria can be lessened by supportive environments and knowledge about treatment to reduce the difference between your inner gender identity and sex assigned at birth. It is exasperated by lack of support and denial of treatment..

SoupSarah,

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter.

Chrissy

Quote from: noleen111 on July 08, 2024, 07:52:46 AMThis situation kinda happened to me. ok not exactly the same situation, but similar

Before I had bottom surgery, I was dating a guy. He was my first boyfriend, before that I assumed I was lesbian.

I was full time presenting as female, i had being on hormones for about 2 years, so I was quite a way down the road of transition, so I was passing well. Since I am a girly girl, this helped my passing

He was a deeply closeted gay man, so I was the perfect girlfriend for him, to his family and public I was girl so nothing to see here, but the fact I had a penis appealed to the gay side of him. Things started to get complicated when things started to get physical as i did want him to touch me down there as I did not want to get reminded I was born male. The final nail in the relationship, was when I secured my appointment for bottom surgery. I was so excited and he was angry, he accused me of selling out and bowing to societies definition of a woman and I was perfect the way I was.

He knew my plan all along was to get bottom surgery,when I started hormones that was always the plan, I knew I needed a vagina between my legs to feel 100% female.

Well we broke up. That relationship was about 9 months long (we took it slowly, due him being a closeted gay man, and me getting use to the idea of having a boyfriend). Yes that relationship was doomed from the start.

Back to the question, in this Hypothetical but not very realistic, situation.. the relationship will be doomed. Its only so long you can pretend everything is fine. you need to be you in the relationship.

When I met my husband, I was honest from the beginning, that I was born male as I was post op at this time. I did not want to build a relationship on a lie.

Noleen,

Thank you for your thoughts on this situation.

Chrissy

Quote from: Gina P on July 08, 2024, 08:34:46 AMI'll just echo what the others have said. The relationship is doomed, DOOMED from the start. After the euphoria of great sex and a new love wear off, GD will rear its ugly head and all the anxieties and problems will come back.
   When I came out to my wife I told her if she wanted to split, I understand. I loved her but I HAD to do this for me! Long story short she has learned to except me as I am. :) 

Gina,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.  It is also nice your wife has accepted you for who you are.  As you are aware in this hypothetical situation the woman, if she is to be married, would want to accept the other woman (MTF) but with limits, if they could appear as a "standard heterosexual couple to the world."  But that may be very difficult to do for the woman who is transitioning, even if she may present as female in many situations.

Something "may break" in the future of this relationship....

Chrissy

Quote from: Sephirah on July 10, 2024, 09:08:50 PMThis is a no brainer for me, Chrissy.

If someone I'm with doesn't understand why I am who am, and cannot get me for who I am.. I don't care if she were the best sex since pre-Trump Stormy Daniels... that isn't the point of a relationship.

For me it is a meeting of souls, pure and simple. It's someone you find solace in. Someone who finds solace in you. Lust is a very long way down the list to love. And I will also say, people here understand that more than most. Take it from personal experience.

If you base the premise of your relationship on a lie, or a concession... it will never, EVER end well. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty is in the eye of the person who will never ask you to be someone else because it suits their world more. And vice versa. It's a rare thing, admittedly, but when you have, or find it... you hold on to it. Because these are the people, and you are the person, which matters.

That's my belief.

Sephora,

Quote from: Sephirah on July 10, 2024, 09:08:50 PMThis is a no brainer for me, Chrissy.

If someone I'm with doesn't understand why I am who am, and cannot get me for who I am.. I don't care if she were the best sex since pre-Trump Stormy Daniels... that isn't the point of a relationship.

For me it is a meeting of souls, pure and simple. It's someone you find solace in. Someone who finds solace in you. Lust is a very long way down the list to love. And I will also say, people here understand that more than most. Take it from personal experience.

If you base the premise of your relationship on a lie, or a concession... it will never, EVER end well. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Beauty is in the eye of the person who will never ask you to be someone else because it suits their world more. And vice versa. It's a rare thing, admittedly, but when you have, or find it... you hold on to it. Because these are the people, and you are the person, which matters.

That's my belief.

Sephirah,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Chrissy

Quote from: KathyLauren on July 11, 2024, 12:33:08 PMIt is pretty hypothetical for me, as I was already married when I transitioned, and my wife is okay with who I am.  But I agree with the consensus above: the relationship as described would not work.  The earlier the person breaks it off, the better.

I do know someone in almost this position.  After a lifetime of crossdressing and being gender-fluid, she has finally realized that she is trans-feminine .  But her wife is not on board with it, so she has to present masculine at home.  Given that she has started HRT and is loving it, I foresee "interesting" times in her home life.  So far, she is making it work, and is able to present as feminine everywhere except at home, including at work.  I wish her the best, but her path is not for me.  And in the long run, perhaps not for her either.

Kathy Lauren,

Thank you for your thought on this.

Chrissy

Quote from: Nadine Spirit on July 11, 2024, 09:27:55 PMYeah that's a no go. I would not do this. Even if I wanted to it wouldn't work. I tried this route for most of my life and it led to misery. Thus I transitioned. Not going back to try it again, thanks.

Kelly,

Thank you for your thought of this situation.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on July 07, 2024, 01:22:53 PMHypothetically speaking, what would you most likely do as a MTF transitioning for quite a while and you now find yourself in a strong and wonderful relationship with another woman, it is getting very serious, and she appears to be very supportive of you, BUT she says she would prefer yourself remaining a biological male, legally and otherwise, to have a "normal appearing couple relationship" if you two get married because it would make things go smoother with her family?  Yes, you can express your femininity but it would no longer be good for you to be working as a female, as you would be a man to the world?

This seems like a terrible situation to complete your MTF transition as you have been moving towards this real life gender transition.  But the woman you fell in love with you want to do almost anything for her.  She is honest, loving, you have great sex, and a lot of fun together as yourself, as a woman.  She is honest, smart, beautiful, and you feel very fortunate to have her return love to you. 

So what you say on this hypothetical situation, this quandary?


Chrissy

This would be a really tough quandary to be in.  The CIS woman is supportive to an extent, they have taken out of town trips as two women, they go out as two women, they seem to have a lot fun.  Then the twist of her wanting to appear to be in a "traditional male/female relationship" to the world is causing some issues for her friendship.

She may be asking for too much of her friend.  Her friend has come a substantial way in her MTF transition.  But she has been sitting on the fence in terms of completing it.

Thank you all for your thoughts on this, and additional thoughts are welcomed.

Chrissy

In this hypothetical situation, nothing needs to change unless they get engaged.
They continue to talk about this.

Chrissy

This situation is both sweet and hurtful.
Perhaps it is best to not get too serious.
I just do not know.

Chrissy

This hypothetical couple are continuing to talk about what "must be done" if they get super serious / permanent relationship wise.  In the meantime, they are doing well and are having good times together.

Here is an update to the hypothetical situation, somewhat changed from the original scenario, as there has been much discussion between the couple.

Hypothetically speaking, what would you most likely do as a MTF transitioning for quite a while and you now find yourself in a nice relationship with another woman, it is lasting, it is getting serious, and she appears to be very supportive of you, BUT she says she insists on yourself remaining a biological male, legally and otherwise, to have a "normal appearing couple relationship" if you two get married because it would make things go smoother with her family and some of her friends?

Yes, you can express your femininity at home, vacation, you can continue to work as a female, be female in public in most situations, but for members of her family and some others potentially, to have them believe you are male.  A male and female hetero couple.

While different to some extent, with more consideration given to her (the MTF's) female transitioning, this still a challenging situation for some MTFs.  However, things could be worse.  There is good and bad in this situation. 


Chrissy

I still would never agree to be anyone but myself.

If someone has a problem with who I am, that is their problem, not mine. If that is a deal-breaker, then I would have to ask why I am not allowed to be me? Why am I expected to lie and pretend to be something I am not? I spent years trying to overcome the lie I had been telling most of my life. I can't go back.

If it came right down to it, I would never be around those who cannot accept it. And who knows which members of the family would be accepting if they knew the truth? Maybe most of the family is okay with it, and it is her discomfort that she is projecting onto the family.

Something to think about.

I can see your point Lori.

In this example situation at least she gets to live a lot of her life as herself.
Although not the ideal, I cannot help but think that there is some real value here in that there is much acceptance here and a relationship of value.  It is a realization that her family would not be accepting although some of them may be accepting.

People are social and need others.  If she (MTF) found someone that is a lot accepting, it seems to me that that beats not having anyone.

It is a situation where naturally one would want 100% be able to be yourself 100% of the time.  Is slightly less better than zero with no mutual relationship?

May be hard to put up that false front to her family, no doubt.  Maybe it could not work out.

I am thinking though that many transgender people would like to have a significant amount of acceptance by their friends, family, and partner and this may be one of those compromise situations that can be acceptable.  At least for a while, or to try. 

I do not know though.  It would be, as you say, hard to not be yourself all the time.  Life is full of give and take though.  Being flexible can be helpful.  Sticking to your 100% being you as you transition if at all possible is also helpful as you want to live your life as a woman.

Any others wish to comment?  Perhaps if she went along with this it will likely end up badly.  Maybe not.  Maybe they should just take this day by day.


Chrissy

Take my comments with a grain of salt. I am an asexual introvert, so social interactions are not something that I need. Because of this, I fail to see any value in engaging with negative people. I would find any excuse necessary to avoid visiting them. Would I need to maintain a separate male wardrobe just for those occasions? What if I ran into one of them at the grocery store as myself?

It just seems to be a very cumbersome way to live just to please someone else. After 60 years of doing that, I decided that I would no longer live my life according to the whims of others. For some, it may seem like what she is asking is a small compromise. I don't see it that way.

Again, this is just my narrow opinion. YMMV.  :-*

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 02, 2025, 12:54:00 AMI am thinking though that many transgender people would like to have a significant amount of acceptance by their friends, family, and partner and this may be one of those compromise situations that can be acceptable.  At least for a while, or to try. 

I'm sure this is one of those situations where everyone will have a different take because we're none of us the same. Ultimately how people answer is going to be influenced by whether they are binary or not, how strong their dysphoria is, how much they value the other person in the relationship, their sexuality and their overall take on the balance between transitioning and the loss of the relationship.

That's five axes.

I'm in a position not so far from the one you're describing and I'm perfectly good with it, but I value relationship quality over almost everything else.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 02, 2025, 08:35:10 AMTake my comments with a grain of salt. I am an asexual introvert, so social interactions are not something that I need. Because of this, I fail to see any value in engaging with negative people. I would find any excuse necessary to avoid visiting them. Would I need to maintain a separate male wardrobe just for those occasions? What if I ran into one of them at the grocery store as myself?

It just seems to be a very cumbersome way to live just to please someone else. After 60 years of doing that, I decided that I would no longer live my life according to the whims of others. For some, it may seem like what she is asking is a small compromise. I don't see it that way.

Again, this is just my narrow opinion. YMMV.  :-*

I would have to agree with you Lori on this. After so much progress and coming so far. I would see this compromise as a significant setback. I think it also could lead to some issues in the relationship as someone is not really accepting of the person's transition as they seem to say they are.
They are in MY opinion okay to accept the transition of the partner with exceptions. But the partner has no options but to accept or end it. How is this a healthy relationship. Again just my stance on the subject.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 01, 2025, 06:59:01 PMHypothetically speaking, what would you most likely do as a MTF transitioning for quite a while and you now find yourself in a nice relationship with another woman, it is lasting, it is getting serious, and she appears to be very supportive of you, BUT she says she insists on yourself remaining a biological male, legally and otherwise, to have a "normal appearing couple relationship" if you two get married because it would make things go smoother with her family and some of her friends?

For me, this would be a deal-breaker.  I cannot ever go back to pretending to be male.  She and I can be good acquaintances, but it would be hard to be friends with someone who is, at best, only a partial ally, and it would be impossible for me to be in a relationship with them.

Quote from: TanyaG on June 02, 2025, 09:21:53 AMI'm sure this is one of those situations where everyone will have a different take because we're none of us the same. Ultimately how people answer is going to be influenced by whether they are binary or not, how strong their dysphoria is, how much they value the other person in the relationship, their sexuality and their overall take on the balance between transitioning and the loss of the relationship.

That's five axes.

I'm in a position not so far from the one you're describing and I'm perfectly good with it, but I value relationship quality over almost everything else.

Thank you for your thoughts Tanya.

Chrissy

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 02, 2025, 08:35:10 AMTake my comments with a grain of salt. I am an asexual introvert, so social interactions are not something that I need. Because of this, I fail to see any value in engaging with negative people. I would find any excuse necessary to avoid visiting them. Would I need to maintain a separate male wardrobe just for those occasions? What if I ran into one of them at the grocery store as myself?

It just seems to be a very cumbersome way to live just to please someone else. After 60 years of doing that, I decided that I would no longer live my life according to the whims of others. For some, it may seem like what she is asking is a small compromise. I don't see it that way.

Again, this is just my narrow opinion. YMMV.  :-*

Thank you for your thoughts Lori.

Chrissy

Quote from: Annaliese on June 02, 2025, 09:28:44 AMI would have to agree with you Lori on this. After so much progress and coming so far. I would see this compromise as a significant setback. I think it also could lead to some issues in the relationship as someone is not really accepting of the person's transition as they seem to say they are.
They are in MY opinion okay to accept the transition of the partner with exceptions. But the partner has no options but to accept or end it. How is this a healthy relationship. Again just my stance on the subject.

Annaliese,

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

Chrissy

In this situation, the MTF is thinking that it may be quite difficult to find a lasting relationship where the two of you would want to grow old together.  It is more likely more difficult for us who are transitioning. 

There are the concepts of gratefulness and contentment and compromise.

Who wants to grow old lonely?  Sure you can associate with others.  But that would not be the same. 

Thanks for your comments on this situation.

Quote from: KathyLauren on June 02, 2025, 10:32:14 AMFor me, this would be a deal-breaker.  I cannot ever go back to pretending to be male.  She and I can be good acquaintances, but it would be hard to be friends with someone who is, at best, only a partial ally, and it would be impossible for me to be in a relationship with them.

Thank you Kathy for sharing your thoughts on this.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 03, 2025, 07:46:00 AMIn this situation, the MTF is thinking that it may be quite difficult to find a lasting relationship where the two of you would want to grow old together.  It is more likely more difficult for us who are transitioning. 

There are the concepts of gratefulness and contentment and compromise.

Who wants to grow old lonely?  Sure you can associate with others.  But that would not be the same. 

Thanks for your comments on this situation.

It makes sense that the relationship is somewhat symbiotic, in that each participant derives some benefit from the other. But assuming that it is the only relationship that is, or will be, ever available is unrealistic.

One of the greatest fears that humans have is the fear of loss. Advertisers know this and use it to encourage people to "Act Now!" on their "Limited Time Offer." In this relationship, what you are implying is that if it does not work out, that is it, they are done, and they will never find anyone else.

What if...

What if they stay together, and as they get older, the MtF's dysphoria worsens? Read the member blogs here, and you will notice that this happens frequently. What if it worsens to the point that she needs bottom surgery? How will the relationship feel then?

What if they stay together for fear of becoming lonely in their old age, and they meet someone who is 100% supportive? Do they just bail out of their current relationship? Or wait until things get too uncomfortable that the other leaves? Or do they forego the opportunity for a blissful existence with the perfect partner so they can keep what they have?

I think you might be viewing the relationship from a dependency point of view. Having something "not great" is better than having nothing. And while you have your hands full of "not great," you have no room to grab something great that could present itself.

Perhaps this couple should consider couples counseling to really figure out what each wants and why. Or at least have some serious discussions about their relationship and what each one's intentions and expectations are.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 08:51:16 AMIt makes sense that the relationship is somewhat symbiotic, in that each participant derives some benefit from the other. But assuming that it is the only relationship that is, or will be, ever available is unrealistic.

One of the greatest fears that humans have is the fear of loss. Advertisers know this and use it to encourage people to "Act Now!" on their "Limited Time Offer." In this relationship, what you are implying is that if it does not work out, that is it, they are done, and they will never find anyone else.

What if...

What if they stay together, and as they get older, the MtF's dysphoria worsens? Read the member blogs here, and you will notice that this happens frequently. What if it worsens to the point that she needs bottom surgery? How will the relationship feel then?

What if they stay together for fear of becoming lonely in their old age, and they meet someone who is 100% supportive? Do they just bail out of their current relationship? Or wait until things get too uncomfortable that the other leaves? Or do they forego the opportunity for a blissful existence with the perfect partner so they can keep what they have?

I think you might be viewing the relationship from a dependency point of view. Having something "not great" is better than having nothing. And while you have your hands full of "not great," you have no room to grab something great that could present itself.

Perhaps this couple should consider couples counseling to really figure out what each wants and why. Or at least have some serious discussions about their relationship and what each one's intentions and expectations are.

As I read your reply Lori I cannot help but think of straight couples that marry.  They should do so for better or worse. 

Do they wait for a potentially better relationship or do they marry?  If they do marry, all that thinking about better relationships goes away.  Unless the relationship sours to a point of irreconcilable status then they may go their own ways.  But that is not a thought that goes through their minds as they join forever, which it should be, forever. 

They do not skip marriage because someone better may come along.  They do not settle for this person in fear of loneliness if they marry for love and forever. 

It does not matter if there are fleeting moments of someone better that may come about.  Does that spark affairs?  They stick with each other.  The grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill.  There in fact may be no grass on the other side of the hill.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 03, 2025, 09:00:30 AMAs I read your reply Lori I cannot help but think of straight couples that marry.  They should do so for better or worse. 

Do they wait for a potentially better relationship or do they marry?  If they do marry, all that thinking about better relationships goes away.  Unless the relationship sours to a point of irreconcilable status then they may go their own ways.  But that is not a thought that goes through their minds as they join forever, which it should be, forever. 

They do not skip marriage because someone better may come along.  They do not settle for this person in fear of loneliness if they marry for love and forever. 

It does not matter if there are fleeting moments of someone better that may be come about.  Does that spark affairs?  They stick with each other.  The grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill.  There in fact may be no grass on the other side of the hill.

Chrissy

You are absolutely correct on this.

At the risk of TMI, I had a relationship like this. Well, not exactly.

Take the transgender factor out of the equation. The relationship began as one of convenience in that we both needed a place to live, so we moved in together as roommates. Over the years, there was "pressure" from her family that we should get married. Neither of us was looking for someone else; we both cared for each other very much and enjoyed each other's company. It was nice to have a companion, and we agreed to get married even though we both knew it was more for appearances than anything else. The relationship was working without a piece of paper, but there are benefits to being a married couple. We looked toward the benefits and worked harder to make it work as a marriage.

Instead of becoming closer, our differences became more apparent. Eventually (over a decade later), we both felt "stuck" in a relationship that did not provide the bliss we had imagined. This led to affairs, and finally, we got divorced (after the parents had passed away).

My point is that what we learned is that "settling" was convenient at the time, getting married removed some of the outside pressure, but neither of us was truly happy in the relationship. In hindsight, I can see that we each wanted different things, and eventually, our differences drove us apart.

That is why I suggested taking a good, hard look at what the intentions and expectations each has now, and realizing that the situation probably will change and cause even more pressure on the relationship. There are plenty of examples of couples who have made it work, and "till death do us part" is a reality. But I suggest that in those relationships, there are no conditions on when or where they can be themselves.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 03, 2025, 09:00:30 AMDo they wait for a potentially better relationship or do they marry?  If they do marry, all that thinking about better relationships goes away.  Unless the relationship sours to a point of irreconcilable status then they may go their own ways.  But that is not a thought that goes through their minds as they join forever, which it should be, forever. 

Wow has this question deepened and widened! It's easier to consider this one with marriage out of the way, because it's a legal and religious construct. If instead you look at whether someone should avoid having a long term relationship they are sure will work because of a. the possibility it may go sour on them or b. they may find someone else, then it's clearer, I think?

In case a. no-one knows what the future will bring and if we waited for it to become clear, none of us would ever have long term relationships. In case b. if someone enters a long term relationship and is always looking for someone better, then they should question whether they should have told their partner the relationship was long term.

I'm going to throw a firecracker in here and suggest that anyone who worries about either case a or case b should consider consensual non-monogamy, because in case a. they'll end up having serial casual relationships and in case b. they'll end up being a non-consensual non-monogamist, better known as cheating :)

Awesome thread!

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 09:21:24 AMMy point is that what we learned is that "settling" was convenient at the time, getting married removed some of the outside pressure, but neither of us was truly happy in the relationship. In hindsight, I can see that we each wanted different things, and eventually, our differences drove us apart.

You've hit on a common thing there, Lori, people get married for all kinds of reasons other than love and friendship. I worked with one couple who got hitched because both thought the other was expecting them to do it. Whether relationships survive or not usually depends on how mutually beneficial it is to both partners and if either or neither isn't getting more out of it than they would by being single, then the survival of the relationship most often boils down to whether they're good friends and share interests or not.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 09:21:24 AMYou are absolutely correct on this.

At the risk of TMI, I had a relationship like this. Well, not exactly.

Take the transgender factor out of the equation. The relationship began as one of convenience in that we both needed a place to live, so we moved in together as roommates. Over the years, there was "pressure" from her family that we should get married. Neither of us was looking for someone else; we both cared for each other very much and enjoyed each other's company. It was nice to have a companion, and we agreed to get married even though we both knew it was more for appearances than anything else. The relationship was working without a piece of paper, but there are benefits to being a married couple. We looked toward the benefits and worked harder to make it work as a marriage.

Instead of becoming closer, our differences became more apparent. Eventually (over a decade later), we both felt "stuck" in a relationship that did not provide the bliss we had imagined. This led to affairs, and finally, we got divorced (after the parents had passed away).

My point is that what we learned is that "settling" was convenient at the time, getting married removed some of the outside pressure, but neither of us was truly happy in the relationship. In hindsight, I can see that we each wanted different things, and eventually, our differences drove us apart.

That is why I suggested taking a good, hard look at what the intentions and expectations each has now, and realizing that the situation probably will change and cause even more pressure on the relationship. There are plenty of examples of couples who have made it work, and "till death do us part" is a reality. But I suggest that in those relationships, there are no conditions on when or where they can be themselves.

I think in all relations there is give and take.  Suppose one in the couple would just assume go fishing every weekend, staying overnight in a houseboat or a primitive cabin.  The other in the couple does not like doing that as much. 

So is that something that breaks the deal?  It should not be.  At least I do not think so.  There are lots of other things, some big and some not, that one has to understand and make a rational determination if that would impact the marriage negatively.

The point is they should wait until they know they are uniting for all time for the right reasons at the right time to the right person.


Chrissy

This situation is interesting, is not it? 

Gets you thinking, that is for sure!


Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 03, 2025, 09:32:18 AMThis situation is interesting, is not it? 

Gets you thinking, that is for sure!


Chrissy

Good points, for sure!

But there is a difference between going fishing and a female being "forced" to present as male.

Would the other be okay with presenting as someone she is not? If there is going to be a compromise to make it work, it must work both ways.

When the other person gives a substantial amount, that is, is okay with much as it is, it already "works both ways."

I guess there must be a tolerance to present as male in some situations by this MTF, but she is herself in most public situations and in all private ones. 

MTFs would like to have a partner that tolerates and ideally, accepts and welcomes their gender expression.  Many would likely be happy if their partner would be accepting of far less than this hypothetical. 

However I can understand that many a MTF would want to live 100% of their time as themselves.

Chrissy

So much good discussion here, Chrissy!

I think my concern is that too often I see kind-hearted people who give everything to a relationship, but do not receive as much in return. For some people, that is perfectly acceptable. I would just worry that the "divide" would become worse and make for a very uncomfortable situation for both parties in the future.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 12:31:15 PMSo much good discussion here, Chrissy!

I think my concern is that too often I see kind-hearted people who give everything to a relationship, but do not receive as much in return. For some people, that is perfectly acceptable. I would just worry that the "divide" would become worse and make for a very uncomfortable situation for both parties in the future.

We do not have a crystal ball.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 12:31:15 PMSo much good discussion here, Chrissy!

I think my concern is that too often I see kind-hearted people who give everything to a relationship, but do not receive as much in return. For some people, that is perfectly acceptable. I would just worry that the "divide" would become worse and make for a very uncomfortable situation for both parties in the future.

Yes.


Others are welcome to post their thoughts on this situation.


Chrissy