Quote from: KathyLauren on June 02, 2025, 10:32:14 AMFor me, this would be a deal-breaker.  I cannot ever go back to pretending to be male.  She and I can be good acquaintances, but it would be hard to be friends with someone who is, at best, only a partial ally, and it would be impossible for me to be in a relationship with them.

Thank you Kathy for sharing your thoughts on this.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 03, 2025, 07:46:00 AMIn this situation, the MTF is thinking that it may be quite difficult to find a lasting relationship where the two of you would want to grow old together.  It is more likely more difficult for us who are transitioning. 

There are the concepts of gratefulness and contentment and compromise.

Who wants to grow old lonely?  Sure you can associate with others.  But that would not be the same. 

Thanks for your comments on this situation.

It makes sense that the relationship is somewhat symbiotic, in that each participant derives some benefit from the other. But assuming that it is the only relationship that is, or will be, ever available is unrealistic.

One of the greatest fears that humans have is the fear of loss. Advertisers know this and use it to encourage people to "Act Now!" on their "Limited Time Offer." In this relationship, what you are implying is that if it does not work out, that is it, they are done, and they will never find anyone else.

What if...

What if they stay together, and as they get older, the MtF's dysphoria worsens? Read the member blogs here, and you will notice that this happens frequently. What if it worsens to the point that she needs bottom surgery? How will the relationship feel then?

What if they stay together for fear of becoming lonely in their old age, and they meet someone who is 100% supportive? Do they just bail out of their current relationship? Or wait until things get too uncomfortable that the other leaves? Or do they forego the opportunity for a blissful existence with the perfect partner so they can keep what they have?

I think you might be viewing the relationship from a dependency point of view. Having something "not great" is better than having nothing. And while you have your hands full of "not great," you have no room to grab something great that could present itself.

Perhaps this couple should consider couples counseling to really figure out what each wants and why. Or at least have some serious discussions about their relationship and what each one's intentions and expectations are.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 08:51:16 AMIt makes sense that the relationship is somewhat symbiotic, in that each participant derives some benefit from the other. But assuming that it is the only relationship that is, or will be, ever available is unrealistic.

One of the greatest fears that humans have is the fear of loss. Advertisers know this and use it to encourage people to "Act Now!" on their "Limited Time Offer." In this relationship, what you are implying is that if it does not work out, that is it, they are done, and they will never find anyone else.

What if...

What if they stay together, and as they get older, the MtF's dysphoria worsens? Read the member blogs here, and you will notice that this happens frequently. What if it worsens to the point that she needs bottom surgery? How will the relationship feel then?

What if they stay together for fear of becoming lonely in their old age, and they meet someone who is 100% supportive? Do they just bail out of their current relationship? Or wait until things get too uncomfortable that the other leaves? Or do they forego the opportunity for a blissful existence with the perfect partner so they can keep what they have?

I think you might be viewing the relationship from a dependency point of view. Having something "not great" is better than having nothing. And while you have your hands full of "not great," you have no room to grab something great that could present itself.

Perhaps this couple should consider couples counseling to really figure out what each wants and why. Or at least have some serious discussions about their relationship and what each one's intentions and expectations are.

As I read your reply Lori I cannot help but think of straight couples that marry.  They should do so for better or worse. 

Do they wait for a potentially better relationship or do they marry?  If they do marry, all that thinking about better relationships goes away.  Unless the relationship sours to a point of irreconcilable status then they may go their own ways.  But that is not a thought that goes through their minds as they join forever, which it should be, forever. 

They do not skip marriage because someone better may come along.  They do not settle for this person in fear of loneliness if they marry for love and forever. 

It does not matter if there are fleeting moments of someone better that may come about.  Does that spark affairs?  They stick with each other.  The grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill.  There in fact may be no grass on the other side of the hill.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 03, 2025, 09:00:30 AMAs I read your reply Lori I cannot help but think of straight couples that marry.  They should do so for better or worse. 

Do they wait for a potentially better relationship or do they marry?  If they do marry, all that thinking about better relationships goes away.  Unless the relationship sours to a point of irreconcilable status then they may go their own ways.  But that is not a thought that goes through their minds as they join forever, which it should be, forever. 

They do not skip marriage because someone better may come along.  They do not settle for this person in fear of loneliness if they marry for love and forever. 

It does not matter if there are fleeting moments of someone better that may be come about.  Does that spark affairs?  They stick with each other.  The grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill.  There in fact may be no grass on the other side of the hill.

Chrissy

You are absolutely correct on this.

At the risk of TMI, I had a relationship like this. Well, not exactly.

Take the transgender factor out of the equation. The relationship began as one of convenience in that we both needed a place to live, so we moved in together as roommates. Over the years, there was "pressure" from her family that we should get married. Neither of us was looking for someone else; we both cared for each other very much and enjoyed each other's company. It was nice to have a companion, and we agreed to get married even though we both knew it was more for appearances than anything else. The relationship was working without a piece of paper, but there are benefits to being a married couple. We looked toward the benefits and worked harder to make it work as a marriage.

Instead of becoming closer, our differences became more apparent. Eventually (over a decade later), we both felt "stuck" in a relationship that did not provide the bliss we had imagined. This led to affairs, and finally, we got divorced (after the parents had passed away).

My point is that what we learned is that "settling" was convenient at the time, getting married removed some of the outside pressure, but neither of us was truly happy in the relationship. In hindsight, I can see that we each wanted different things, and eventually, our differences drove us apart.

That is why I suggested taking a good, hard look at what the intentions and expectations each has now, and realizing that the situation probably will change and cause even more pressure on the relationship. There are plenty of examples of couples who have made it work, and "till death do us part" is a reality. But I suggest that in those relationships, there are no conditions on when or where they can be themselves.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 03, 2025, 09:00:30 AMDo they wait for a potentially better relationship or do they marry?  If they do marry, all that thinking about better relationships goes away.  Unless the relationship sours to a point of irreconcilable status then they may go their own ways.  But that is not a thought that goes through their minds as they join forever, which it should be, forever. 

Wow has this question deepened and widened! It's easier to consider this one with marriage out of the way, because it's a legal and religious construct. If instead you look at whether someone should avoid having a long term relationship they are sure will work because of a. the possibility it may go sour on them or b. they may find someone else, then it's clearer, I think?

In case a. no-one knows what the future will bring and if we waited for it to become clear, none of us would ever have long term relationships. In case b. if someone enters a long term relationship and is always looking for someone better, then they should question whether they should have told their partner the relationship was long term.

I'm going to throw a firecracker in here and suggest that anyone who worries about either case a or case b should consider consensual non-monogamy, because in case a. they'll end up having serial casual relationships and in case b. they'll end up being a non-consensual non-monogamist, better known as cheating

Awesome thread!

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 09:21:24 AMMy point is that what we learned is that "settling" was convenient at the time, getting married removed some of the outside pressure, but neither of us was truly happy in the relationship. In hindsight, I can see that we each wanted different things, and eventually, our differences drove us apart.

You've hit on a common thing there, Lori, people get married for all kinds of reasons other than love and friendship. I worked with one couple who got hitched because both thought the other was expecting them to do it. Whether relationships survive or not usually depends on how mutually beneficial it is to both partners and if either or neither isn't getting more out of it than they would by being single, then the survival of the relationship most often boils down to whether they're good friends and share interests or not.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 09:21:24 AMYou are absolutely correct on this.

At the risk of TMI, I had a relationship like this. Well, not exactly.

Take the transgender factor out of the equation. The relationship began as one of convenience in that we both needed a place to live, so we moved in together as roommates. Over the years, there was "pressure" from her family that we should get married. Neither of us was looking for someone else; we both cared for each other very much and enjoyed each other's company. It was nice to have a companion, and we agreed to get married even though we both knew it was more for appearances than anything else. The relationship was working without a piece of paper, but there are benefits to being a married couple. We looked toward the benefits and worked harder to make it work as a marriage.

Instead of becoming closer, our differences became more apparent. Eventually (over a decade later), we both felt "stuck" in a relationship that did not provide the bliss we had imagined. This led to affairs, and finally, we got divorced (after the parents had passed away).

My point is that what we learned is that "settling" was convenient at the time, getting married removed some of the outside pressure, but neither of us was truly happy in the relationship. In hindsight, I can see that we each wanted different things, and eventually, our differences drove us apart.

That is why I suggested taking a good, hard look at what the intentions and expectations each has now, and realizing that the situation probably will change and cause even more pressure on the relationship. There are plenty of examples of couples who have made it work, and "till death do us part" is a reality. But I suggest that in those relationships, there are no conditions on when or where they can be themselves.

I think in all relations there is give and take.  Suppose one in the couple would just assume go fishing every weekend, staying overnight in a houseboat or a primitive cabin.  The other in the couple does not like doing that as much. 

So is that something that breaks the deal?  It should not be.  At least I do not think so.  There are lots of other things, some big and some not, that one has to understand and make a rational determination if that would impact the marriage negatively.

The point is they should wait until they know they are uniting for all time for the right reasons at the right time to the right person.


Chrissy

This situation is interesting, is not it? 

Gets you thinking, that is for sure!


Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on June 03, 2025, 09:32:18 AMThis situation is interesting, is not it? 

Gets you thinking, that is for sure!


Chrissy

Good points, for sure!

But there is a difference between going fishing and a female being "forced" to present as male.

Would the other be okay with presenting as someone she is not? If there is going to be a compromise to make it work, it must work both ways.

When the other person gives a substantial amount, that is, is okay with much as it is, it already "works both ways."

I guess there must be a tolerance to present as male in some situations by this MTF, but she is herself in most public situations and in all private ones. 

MTFs would like to have a partner that tolerates and ideally, accepts and welcomes their gender expression.  Many would likely be happy if their partner would be accepting of far less than this hypothetical. 

However I can understand that many a MTF would want to live 100% of their time as themselves.

Chrissy

So much good discussion here, Chrissy!

I think my concern is that too often I see kind-hearted people who give everything to a relationship, but do not receive as much in return. For some people, that is perfectly acceptable. I would just worry that the "divide" would become worse and make for a very uncomfortable situation for both parties in the future.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 12:31:15 PMSo much good discussion here, Chrissy!

I think my concern is that too often I see kind-hearted people who give everything to a relationship, but do not receive as much in return. For some people, that is perfectly acceptable. I would just worry that the "divide" would become worse and make for a very uncomfortable situation for both parties in the future.

We do not have a crystal ball.

Quote from: Lori Dee on June 03, 2025, 12:31:15 PMSo much good discussion here, Chrissy!

I think my concern is that too often I see kind-hearted people who give everything to a relationship, but do not receive as much in return. For some people, that is perfectly acceptable. I would just worry that the "divide" would become worse and make for a very uncomfortable situation for both parties in the future.

Yes.


Others are welcome to post their thoughts on this situation.


Chrissy