Susan's Place Transgender Resources

@Mrs. Oliphant

Annika, I'm moving our conversation here just trying to be respectful of @TanyaG's thread.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 15, 2025, 07:48:23 PMI have read and reread every word of your blog.

Oh, thank you for reading and stopping by.

QuoteLike you, I am him and I am her. Unlike you, sometimes I don't which I am.

This is where and why a gender therapist can be incredibly helpful not because anything is wrong with you, but to support you in navigating what's going on inside.

QuoteThe 'her' you present in this space is perfect.

I don't present anything, my gender is on a sliding scale and it present which ever on it's own.

QuoteBut, I have little doubt if you shared the 'him' with us, he, too, would be perfect.

I don't know, maybe he would know, and the people he interacts with.

QuoteGender and sexuality matter.They matter a lot.

These are two different things, they are not the same.

Sexuality is another different subject.

QuoteI mean, I've spent so much of my life looking for me. I'm getting closer to finding him and her. I can feel that in my soul. But that is the part that matters, the soul. I'm not sure gender has a darn thing to do with my soul. Or with yours.

Hahaha, does anyone know what gender is?

QuoteYou're a mother/father.

I think there's has been an misunderstanding.

I am not Assigned Female at Birth (AFAB).

I am Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB).


~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: Lilis on April 15, 2025, 08:51:56 PMI think there's has been an misunderstanding.

Misunderstanding is my forte. Lilis, I'm not going to respond point by point. I can't. You are not who I think you are, you are you. If I'm not in 'misunderstanding' mode, 'he' has little interest in sharing with me. I respect that, but I still like him. Anymore, I call myself gender queer. Fluid seemed like an euphemism. I grew up hating the word 'queer.' But now, I embrace it. I have a therapist. She's helpful. But this is one road I walk alone. Sexuality? I'm in love with a woman with a penis. And I'm straight, or lesbian, depending upon who I am when I awaken. I'm also an AMAB, though I suspected that was a mistake by the time I was four. As far as reading and stopping by? I suppose. But when I read what you have to say, I'm searching for myself. The person revealing herself in your words gives me hope I will find me. Him or her (they/them never seemed to fit). Someday, I will find her. Even if she's a 'him.' I want to be your friend, Lilis. Gender and sexuality have nothing to do with that hope. You do. If you allow me to, I will share the secrets of my soul. If you allow yourself to, I will embrace your secrets as a sacred trust. That's what friends do. Not that I have any, not since I came out. But I could really use one.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 15, 2025, 09:13:54 PMMisunderstanding is my forte. Lilis, I'm not going to respond point by point. I can't. You are not who I think you are, you are you. If I'm not in 'misunderstanding' mode, 'he' has little interest in sharing with me. I respect that, but I still like him.

I have no control over it. Last I heard, he's grieving and longing to hear from a woman with whom the flow and connection of conversation felt effortless. But after weeks of talking, she suddenly vanished into the void of cyberspace.

Maybe one day you'll reach him too, but not here and not now, it doesn't seem likely.

He's still processing that pain.

QuoteSexuality? I'm in love with a woman with a penis. And I'm straight, or lesbian, depending upon who I am when I awaken. I'm also an AMAB, though I suspected that was a mistake by the time I was four.

Sexuality and identity can be complex, and it's totally okay that yours shifts. I am bisexual and my sexuality is as fluid as my gender so I understand.

I don't understand what you mean about "a woman with a penis?"

My understanding is that gender has no physical substance. Can expand on what you mean?

QuoteAs far as reading and stopping by? I suppose. But when I read what you have to say, I'm searching for myself. The person revealing herself in your words gives me hope I will find me. Him or her (they/them never seemed to fit). Someday, I will find her. Even if she's a 'him.'

It means a lot that my words resonate with you in some way. I really hope your journey leads you to the version of yourself you've been searching for whoever that turns out to be.

QuoteI want to be your friend, Lilis. Gender and sexuality have nothing to do with that hope. You do.

Sure, we can be online friends! I visit this forum daily, so we can always connect here and support each other.

QuoteIf you allow me to, I will share the secrets of my soul. If you allow yourself to, I will embrace your secrets as a sacred trust. That's what friends do. Not that I have any, not since I came out. But I could really use one.

There's no need to share all our secrets, but let's be there for each other with kind words and a listening ear. At the same time, it's important to be cautious about sharing too much personal information. This is an open forum, we're nothing more than kind strangers trying our best to help one another by sharing what we've learned from our own journeys.



~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 15, 2025, 09:13:54 PMIf I'm not in 'misunderstanding' mode, 'he' has little interest in sharing with me. I respect that, but I still like him. Anymore, I call myself gender queer. Fluid seemed like an euphemism. I grew up hating the word 'queer.'

The question I'd ask here, apart from it feels a little formal referring to you as Mrs Oliphant (I love first names), is: have you thought about why 'he' doesn't have any interest in sharing with 'me'.

It's worth exploring what the barrier is between 'he' and 'me' and why 'he' and 'me' exist in you. If you were brought up to hate the word queer that might be an entry point we can use?

Quote from: Mrs. Elephant on April 15, 2025, 09:13:54 PMIf you allow me to, I will share the secrets of my soul

Lillis is right, oversharing, particularly of information that might identify us if we don't want to be identified, isn't a great idea. But sharing the contents of our heads, as in our thoughts and feelings, can't identify us and can be extraordinarily helpful.

The reason it's useful sharing thoughts and feelings is that in our attempts to be normative we pitch our natural gender identity into a guerrilla war against the identity we were brought up in, and every time the shooting starts, it's against a background of loudspeakers blaring out propaganda to inspire the government funded troops of our upbringing (I'm stretching this metaphor for sure...) to greater sacrifice agains the less well resourced and numerically outnumbered guerillas of our own nature. Believe what's coming over the Tannoy and the guerillas are ideologically driven devils, but what if they're not? What if instead, they're fighting for the just cause of their freedom?

Even sharing thoughts and feelings goes against some critical traits AMAB people were brought up with. It can feel wrong and it can feel weak, not that that's what Lillis is getting at. But it has to be done in order to work out what the propaganda the 'other side' is sending out and to understand why it does it. That's a choke point in most trans people's therapy.

In your writing 'he has little interest in sharing with me' have you hit that block? Is that your way of saying it? Or something else?

Quote from: Lilis on April 15, 2025, 10:29:00 PMI don't understand what you mean about "a woman with a penis?"

My understanding is that gender has no physical substance. Can expand on what you mean?

The void of cyberspace and the seventh circle of hell have much in common. You so eloquently expanded on what I meant to say (gender is not physical) nothing I could add would be of value. Thanks, Lilis.

Quote from: TanyaG on April 16, 2025, 04:34:11 AMIn your writing 'he has little interest in sharing with me' have you hit that block? Is that your way of saying it? Or something else?

I'm not sure what I mean, TanyaG. It's been a difficult few days dealing with some personal stuff. I really don't want to say anything to anyone until I'm in a better place. Not because I don't have things I need to say and even more things I need to hear but because I'm so afraid I will say the 'wrong' things and nothing more will be said to me that I need to hear. I'll get busy 'scoring' a bit later today. Thanks

The verdict is in! I completed a rather complex 'test' under TanyaG's guidance and it came back 'strongly feminine' (which in itself is a bit oxymoronic). I think that means I'm not a queer anymore; I'm a woman (which some of you may have already suspected). I'm in no rush to change my pronouns, though; it's been less than two years since I came out to my daughter as 'genderfluid.' However, going forward, I intend to embrace my 'womanhood' and see where the journey takes me. Baby steps. I am excited beginning this next phase but it took me eight years to accept and express my queerness so I don't feel as though there is a need to rush. I greatly appreciate the time and effort TanyaG committed on behalf. I know it's just another tool in my toolbox (darn, those male metaphors are pesky), but it is an important one.   

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 17, 2025, 01:47:14 PMI think that means I'm not a queer anymore; I'm a woman (which some of you may have already suspected).

This made me smile so much, Annika!

Congratulations on embracing this next chapter of your journey!


~ Lilis 🫂💗

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 17, 2025, 01:47:14 PMThe verdict is in! I completed a rather complex 'test' under TanyaG's guidance and it came back 'strongly feminine' (which in itself is a bit oxymoronic). I think that means I'm not a queer anymore

I'd clarify the situation this way. You consistently picked feminine traits in your first pass through the Gender Game (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2299203.html#msg2299203), Annika, which can be a good pointer, but it is in no way a validated tool, hence the word, 'game'.

Just as emotions aren't a problem per se, it's what you do with them that creates goodness or badness, so it goes with gender traits (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2299322.html#msg2299322). It's what you do with them which defines you.

So, it's up to each person to decide what they do with the gender traits they are sympathetic to, which may or may not include a decision about transition, and a decision about their sex. Only the person concerned is in a place to take those decisions, depending on the balance. I for example am almost fifty:fifty masculine traits versus feminine ones.

It's a complex process, because when people who are in between the moment they suspect they are trans and accepting they are trans (and before even working out what sort of trans they are) they tend to rationalise when they should be reflecting.

In other words, they work on answers instead of asking questions and exploring more. Decisions are comforting because they bring a veneer of certainty, but that certainty can be off or wrong.

To give a for instance, AMAB people who have feminine gender expression are often seen by others as being gay men. That's because strongly binary people high in masculine gender traits equate AMAB with masculinity and masculinity with sexual attraction to women. Vice versa, those people equate femininity with attraction to men, hence to them someone who appears male but has feminine gender expression must be gay. That's pure scripting.

I've worked with people who've rationalised this way about themselves. If they do, it becomes a two pronged psychological fork they end up using to prod themselves, because the odds are that, like the majority of people, they are straight; and second, they very often hold learned gendered scripts which are in no way sympathetic to same sex attracted people.

If someone makes this sort of wrong connection, they can end up delaying the discovery they are trans by years, if not decades, because of all the time they waste trying to persuade themselves they're not gay, up to and including episodes of hyper masculinity or hyper femininity (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2298206.html#msg2298206).

It's like building a house, get the foundations aligned and the frame will be aligned. Get the frame aligned and the walls will be square. Get the walls square and everything from units going in easily and pictures hanging right follows.

It sounds simple put like that but get the foundations out by an amount the eye cannot detect and it can pile up issues later on :-) Measure twice, cut once, isn't that what they say?

Quote from: TanyaG on April 18, 2025, 03:25:22 AMMeasure twice, cut once, isn't that what they say?

Masculine metaphors certainly are ubiquitous. As I said, the degree of femineity revealed by the 'game' is a tool in my tool box (or needle in my sewing kit) and not a map and compass for the journey I am on. I am proceeding very slowly with this. And cautiously. However, I would rather be a woman than the chimera I attempted to mimic. But, the most important thing is to become who I am. Lilis calls it 'unveiling'. For me, it's more like ripping off masks I've worn since childhood in order to convince other people who I am, since I have an inconsistent sense of self. All that being said, I am so grateful for having you to turn to when I come upon something I do not understand about this journey. And that seem to occur quite often.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 02:03:16 PMI am proceeding very slowly with this. And cautiously. However, I would rather be a woman than the chimera I attempted to mimic.

QuoteBut, the most important thing is to become who I am. Lilis calls it 'unveiling'. For me, it's more like ripping off masks I've worn since childhood in order to convince other people who I am, since I have an inconsistent sense of self.

Yes, but it's also important to remember that we're not therapists, gender specialists, or medical professionals.

So please take what we share here with a grain of salt, and don't try to navigate this entirely on your own without support from qualified professionals.

What we offer is meant for discussion and shared experience, not diagnosis or treatment.


~ Lilis 🫂

My head hurts reading this, lol.  :-\

You are who you are. Whoever that is. That's all there has to be. You are beautiful because you are you. Again, that's all there has to be. When it isn't all there has to be... that's where issues start.

I admit I don't really see people in terms of gender. So I'm probably a bit biased. I love people because they're people. Lilis is Lilis, Annika is Annika. Whoever you feel like is entirely up to you and makes no difference to me. I don't care about what bits are where. Doesn't make your heart any less warm. Or your smile any less sincere.

I am kind of the village idiot when it comes to complex understanding of gender. To me, people are just people. I did click on that link but it was way too complicated for me, lol. I am your online personality test girl. Wholly inaccurate and subjective but hey. ;D I tend to go with intuition over logic, lol. I would make a really bad Vulcan. ;D

If Lilis wants to be called she/her, then she's Lilis. If Lilis wanted to be called he/him, he'd also be Lilis. No less beautiful and no less amazing. To me it's very simple. Same with anyone.

I totally agree with Lilis and with Sephirah, and appreciate TanyaG's insight. I go elsewhere for therapy; I visit here for connection. For community. But the line sometimes becomes blurred because I carry so much ambiguity into both places. And into my own self-healing, meditation. Reflection. Prayer. But I know without a doubt I see myself more clearly now when I look into a mirror than I did before I joined Susan's or insisted the VA provided me with a therapist. Though both roads tend to get a bit rocky at times.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 04:44:23 PMI totally agree with Lilis and with Sephirah, and appreciate TanyaG's insight. I go elsewhere for therapy; I visit here for connection. For community. But the line sometimes becomes blurred because I carry so much ambiguity into both places. And into my own self-healing, meditation. Reflection. Prayer. But I know without a doubt I see myself more clearly now when I look into a mirror than I did before I joined Susan's or insisted the VA provided me with a therapist. Though both roads tend to get a bit rocky at times.

Annika, you have an amazing smile. You are you. Who that is, is for you. But your smile.. is for everyone. I told you before I even saw you that you are gorgeous. I stand by that. :)

As Nietzche said: "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."

We are both still here. :)

Quote from: Sephirah on April 18, 2025, 04:49:46 PMAs Nietzche said: "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."

My umpteenth wife had a juvenile delinquent son who, after many years in kiddie prison, paraphrased Nietzsche thusly in a poem, "That which doesn't kill us, makes us colder..." I've often thought about that. It was a good poem. We are both still here, Sephirah. And neither of us are colder. We chose to be stronger. My smile is for everyone. Hopefully, it will someday make someone stronger. There's already more than enough coldness in the world. I wish I could take back so many words I've said in my life. I pray all the words I have left to say make people stronger. Or, at the very least, tease a smile from their lips. 

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 07:29:29 PMMy umpteenth wife had a juvenile delinquent son who, after many years in kiddie prison, paraphrased Nietzsche thusly in a poem, "That which doesn't kill us, makes us colder..."

There's an argument for that, too. Some people go down that road. I've been down that road myself. A long time ago. It took a lot of hard work and a lot of kind people to help me see that... it doesn't have to be that way. It's a choice. It depends on what you're going through and the people you have around you, I suspect.

It's akin to another Nietzche quote: "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

Quote from: Sephirah on April 18, 2025, 07:35:54 PMthe abyss gazes also into you."

Beautiful! And a Nietzsche quote I don't recall reading (and once upon a time I considered myself an existentialist). I jumped back in to add to my previous post "Thanks for your kind words, Sephirah. They made me smile."
  Yeah. And those monsters can be so appealing and the abyss so tempting. We made other choices. Sometimes, I even made the right choice. But not always. While we're on the subject, do you have any idea what the heck Hegel was talking about? Personally, I think Phenomenology is more about psychology than philosophy. Serious question, girl. Are we created by what we behold? And do we create the beheld?

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 04:44:23 PMI see myself more clearly now when I look into a mirror than I did before I joined Susan's or insisted the VA provided me with a therapist. Though both roads tend to get a bit rocky at times.

Navigating the rocky roads of the mind is as much about understanding what the rocks represent and why they are there as it is about traveling the road itself. You can tell when you're close to a rock in therapy because stress levels rise as the rock moves from being something you can drive around into something that must be considered, but the stress levels fall after closure, because the rock has usually dissolved into a heap of pebbles interesting of themselves, but too small to get in the way.

Is the term genderfluid the same as bigender?  Or is genderfluid not necessarily binary, that is, not necessarily limited to the common genders of male and female? 

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 07:22:20 AMIs the term genderfluid the same as bigender?  Or is genderfluid not necessarily binary, that is, not necessarily limited to the common genders of male and female? 

My 2p is all these terms are yet to gain firm definitions?

Bigender doesn't seem to be used much? If so, I've mostly heard it used by people (or about people) who I would think of as nonbinary. In other words, somewhere in the middle of polar gender axis? As in 'two spirit' or having elements of two genders?

Gender fluid I think of as being like fluid sexuality (and all of Anne Diamond's papers,) so describing someone whose gender identity varies and isn't fixed.

I'd love to hear what others think.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 07:22:20 AMOr is genderfluid not necessarily binary, that is, not necessarily limited to the common genders of male and female? 

This! In my experience as someone who identifies as genderfluid, the difference is that my gender has never felt binary though for some, it might be.

My own journey has been flowing through different expressions of gender.

Sometimes feminine, sometimes masculine, and sometimes in states that don't sit neatly in either category.

It's like my gender is more like a dance across a spectrum that can include male or female, neither, or something my own (like a combination of both at the same time).

For example it can be male by the time I log out of this chat.

I hope that helps.

I'm not entirely sure about the experience of being bigender, but I believe it often involves feeling male and female, moving between the two.

Hopefully, someone who identifies as bigender can share their perspective too.

~ Lilis 💗

When I think it would be wise to present as male, I can do it.
It does not "feel right" but I do it.

I do not think that is being bigender per se, as this is a conscious decision to "play the male role" in some selected situations.  It is harder to tolerate this though.  For instance, in TSA security lines and when renting a car, I will go the male route as that matches my ID documentation.  I just do not want any hassles, extra scrutiny, etc. if I was being my usual self.

Some may think this is bigender but I do not think so.
.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 01:25:44 PMSome may think this is bigender but I do not think so.

I'd call it pragmatic :-)

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 08:03:46 PMBeautiful! And a Nietzsche quote I don't recall reading (and once upon a time I considered myself an existentialist). I jumped back in to add to my previous post "Thanks for your kind words, Sephirah. They made me smile."
  Yeah. And those monsters can be so appealing and the abyss so tempting. We made other choices. Sometimes, I even made the right choice. But not always. While we're on the subject, do you have any idea what the heck Hegel was talking about? Personally, I think Phenomenology is more about psychology than philosophy. Serious question, girl. Are we created by what we behold? And do we create the beheld?

Sorry for the tangent. I had not heard of Hegel before now, but I've done a little research and I do kinda sorta agree with his holistic approach to things. To a point. I tend to think of it more as "Reality is perception." I do think that a lot of how we are is shaped by other people around us. I think that's one reason a lot of trans folks don't accept themselves until later in life. I think a lot of our sense of self is shaped by what we behold. But not all of it. And likewise we do that for other people, whether we realise it or not.

It's a bit like... hmm.. the quote from Michaelangelo: "In every block of marble I see a statue... I have only to hew away the rough walls that imprison the lovely apparition to reveal it." That's the question. Is the statue there already or is it created? I kind of think it's a bit of both.

Quote from: Lilis on April 19, 2025, 01:14:20 PMThis! In my experience as someone who identifies as genderfluid, the difference is that my gender has never felt binary though for some, it might be.

My own journey has been flowing through different expressions of gender.

Sometimes feminine, sometimes masculine, and sometimes in states that don't sit neatly in either category.

It's like my gender is more like a dance across a spectrum that can include male or female, neither, or something my own (like a combination of both at the same time).

For example it can be male by the time I log out of this chat.

I hope that helps.

I'm not entirely sure about the experience of being bigender, but I believe it often involves feeling male and female, moving between the two.

Hopefully, someone who identifies as bigender can share their perspective too.

~ Lilis 💗

Do you mind if I ask a question, Lilis? Because this is way out of my scope of knowledge. Do you see a difference between Masculine and Male, and Feminine and Female? Like... if you feel feminine, does that mean you see yourself as female? And vice versa? I'm really curious about this because I always separated them in my head.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 01:25:44 PMWhen I think it would be wise to present as male, I can do it.
It does not "feel right" but I do it.

I do not think that is being bigender per se, as this is a conscious decision to "play the male role" in some selected situations.

Exactly, and only you would know what your conscious state is.

I'm guessing a woman wearing male clothes at that point, correct me if I am wrong.

QuoteSome may think this is bigender but I do not think so.

But gender as we know it is internal and personal.

So, how can we think externally for how someone else feels and think internally?

You see what is the problem there?

It's like a cisgender male person doing the thinking for you from an external angle.

Does that make sense?


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 01:33:11 PMDo you mind if I ask a question, Lilis? Because this is way out of my scope of knowledge. Do you see a difference between Masculine and Male, and Feminine and Female? Like... if you feel feminine, does that mean you see yourself as female? And vice versa? I'm really curious about this because I always separated them in my head.

Yes, there are periods at times that my gender can feel 100% male or female, but it's not fixed.

Thank you. <3 I can't even begin to imagine what that feels like but this is why it's always good learning from people who do know. :)

Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 01:49:51 PMThank you. <3 I can't even begin to imagine what that feels like but this is why it's always good learning from people who do know. :)

You're welcome. Oh, it's a rocky experience for sure, but I'm managing thanks to therapy, and my spirituality.

~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: Lilis on April 19, 2025, 01:52:56 PMYou're welcome. Oh, it's a rocky experience for sure, but I'm managing thanks to therapy, and my spirituality.

~ Lilis 💗

And being awesome. Don't forget the most important part. ;)

Labels are subjective, for sure.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 01:33:11 PMThat's the question. Is the statue there already or is it created? I kind of think it's a bit of both.

I think writing is a bit like that, too. All the stories are already there. And they've all been told a thousand times, yet, each one is unique. My understanding of Nietzsche and Hegel is little more than faint memories of books read long ago. I merely had a brief insight inspired by your 'monsters' quote that it seemed similar to Hegel's dynamic between the observed and the observer. It never occurred to me that existentialism can be organically linked to phenomenology. And there is a good chance it can't be. I haven't had a rigorous philosophical discussion with anyone since graduate school. So, mostly, I was just having fun and reminiscing. You, on the other hand, took my flight of fancy serious enough to acquire a deeper understanding of Hegel than I currently have (and I've taken graduate level seminars on the dude). That amazes me so much, Sephirah. Also, I would like to jump in a little bit on the discussion you are having with Lilis. I'm more like you. I don't feel gender as a spectrum. It's more like looking through a glass darkly. Somedays, I see myself more clearly than other days. But I think I'm seeing the same thing each time I look into the mirror. But I never see my image clearly enough to know, with any degree of confidence, at whom I'm looking. Oddly enough, that seems to tie back into 'monsters' and the dynamic of perception. One of my favorite quotes about Hegel (and I'm paraphrasing badly) is that German students read him in translation on the off chance the translator understands what the heck he's talking about. Thank you.   

Every story has already been told. The only thing that matters is the person doing the telling.

And yeah... girl, your thoughts matter to me. And I learned a lot learning about Hegel and his views. :)

I still... how you do dialogue in the things you write is an actual marvel to me. That's a life lived. It's a kind of poetry.

I see you, Annika. For whatever that's worth. Even when you don't. *hugs*

Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 05:01:01 PMI see you, Annika. For whatever that's worth. Even when you don't. *hugs*

And it is good to be seen, Sephirah. I never did like Nietzsche much. The whole 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' and 'will to power' thing. But I understood him. Camus, Sartre, Kirkegaard said many of the same things, but they said them 'slant'. Brutal honesty can be a bit off-putting. Plato (Socrates by projection) is my favorite (and he wrote engaging dialog). If you have a 'favorite' philosopher, I would love to meet him (or her--though female philosophers are vanishingly rare (Arendt is awesome and de Beauvoir is a bit in the existentialist camp)). If you have the inclination, pick one (gender regardless). I think it would be a lively conversation. And a meaningful one. (as well as a bit of a break from the whole 'gender' thing) 

Quote from: Lilis on April 19, 2025, 01:39:31 PMSo, how can we think externally for how someone else feels and think internally? You see what is the problem there?

For me, this has always been the rationale for treating everyone the same way, regardless of gender. Even in therapy you don't get a comprehensive perspective of how every single part of someone's experience contributes to how they think and feel. All you ever see are the major influences and (with luck) can help them understand how they play (or don't play) together.

The snag with normativity is it is embedded in us at such a deep level that even if we can chase it away from interfering with our gender identity, it still has its hooks in other parts of us, like our greeting routines and such. For instance, people who are openly gay become tediously familiar with this, as new friends who are okay with them being gay often overcompensate the warmth of their greetings because they are worried they might otherwise come over as being rejecting!

In me, treating everyone the same evolved because I used to see up to a hundred people a day who I had to form a bond with at short notice, but in the process of identifying and tossing out the scripts involved, I discovered it made it so much easier to get along with people who were normative (and to deal with my own normativity) what grew out of a desire to get the job done became a useful habit. Particularly when I learned to use it when I was dealing with myself :-)

Clarification: I firmly believe the dearth of woman philosophers in no way reflects an intellectual inequality but is, rather, a reflection of cultural components. Historically, women's voice have been systematically excluded from philosophy and from Western religion. If everyone refuses to listen, it makes no matter if you sing the most beautiful song ever sung; no one will hear you. On the other hand, I sense that women, as a gender, are more adept at feeling and expressing emotional truths than do many men. Which is one of the primary reasons I hope that I am a woman. Or, at the very least, more feminine (it's only rational for me to wish this). I've been making many clarifications lately. Unlike rational truths, emotional truths are difficult to confine between punctuation marks. Regardless of one's religion, Easter is a season of hope. Of rebirth. The Phoenix rising from its ashes as much as stones being rolled away from tombs. And a time for reflection. That is my intent; to take time for reflection and obviate the need for so many clarifications. 

Quote from: TanyaG on April 20, 2025, 03:20:28 AMFor me, this has always been the rationale for treating everyone the same way, regardless of gender. Even in therapy you don't get a comprehensive perspective of how every single part of someone's experience contributes to how they think and feel. All you ever see are the major influences and (with luck) can help them understand how they play (or don't play) together.

Yes, exactly this. Your tone is measured, and thoughtful. This is what I was trying to say, but I didn't quite know how to put it all together, thank you for articulating it so beautifully, Tanya.

QuoteThe snag with normativity is it is embedded in us at such a deep level that even if we can chase it away from interfering with our gender identity, it still has its hooks in other parts of us, like our greeting routines and such. For instance, people who are openly gay become tediously familiar with this, as new friends who are okay with them being gay often overcompensate the warmth of their greetings because they are worried they might otherwise come over as being rejecting!

I think I'm starting to get what you're saying now. It's kind of wild how those norms are embedded, even when we think we've moved beyond them.

Is your point that norms are sticky in that way?

That even when we believe we've let them go, they still shape how we behave?

QuoteIn me, treating everyone the same evolved because I used to see up to a hundred people a day who I had to form a bond with at short notice, but in the process of identifying and tossing out the scripts involved, I discovered it made it so much easier to get along with people who were normative (and to deal with my own normativity) what grew out of a desire to get the job done became a useful habit. Particularly when I learned to use it when I was dealing with myself :-)

Hahaha, based on what you've shared, I get the feeling you'd make an excellent therapist.


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Lilis on April 20, 2025, 01:45:02 PMIs your point that norms are sticky in that way? That even when we believe we've let them go, they still shape how we behave?

That's been how its been with me and almost everyone I've ever worked with. They affect us so deeply we can end up phrasing things certain ways because of bits of norms left buried where we least expect and although people are often reluctant to believe it, buried norms are powerful mechanisms for triggering dysphoria.

So buried that people sometimes don't realise something is norm triggered dysphoria because it shows up as anger or some other negative emotion or action. Which can end up being directed at yourself if you aren't careful.

Which is really tough when it happens, because unless you 'spot the norm violation' it's inexplicable :-(

Quote from: Lilis on April 20, 2025, 01:45:02 PMHahaha, based on what you've shared, I get the feeling you'd make an excellent therapist.

I'm a doctor not a therapist, but a deep interest in psychology over 40+ years and my own experience of being trans has proven much more useful than anything medicine taught me. The most important therapy lesson I learned was 'be honest with yourself.' Which is harder to do that most of us think, because those pesky norms stop us seeing what honesty really is, if you know what I mean?

Quote from: TanyaG on April 20, 2025, 03:15:24 PMI'm a doctor not a therapist, but a deep interest in psychology over 40+ years and my own experience of being trans has proven much more useful than anything medicine taught me.

QuoteThe most important therapy lesson I learned was 'be honest with yourself.' Which is harder to do that most of us think, because those pesky norms stop us seeing what honesty really is, if you know what I mean?

Awesome! Yes, I understand, thank You, Tanya! 💗


~ Lilis 🫂

Mea culpa.
As I mentioned when I first entered Susan's Place, this is the first website I've ever 'joined'. Once I found my footing, my frame of reference varied between 'family reunion' and '12-step meeting' (and I have considerable experience participating in both venues). It's not. During the course of learning some of the norms, mores, and values of this whole new world I made many egregious errors in judgment. I'm learning. My error rate seems to be diminishing. I was thinking about this today. How could I accept responsibility and make amends (another remnant of my 12-step days). I realized I can't. This space is far too fluid for such reflection and, as I was advised when attempting to make amends in the other venues listed above, don't even try if you'll just make things worse (when you're in a hole...). So, I wrote a poem. And no one writes a poem without feeling compelled to share it with those they care about:

Acceptance of the limitations of Cyberspace

More fragile than the skeleton of a dream
Turning to dust with dawn's first light,
Or a baby's breath, the long sigh into silence
As she falls asleep.
The reaching out for another's hand
As though it could be touched through
The ethereal abyss between keystrokes.
Clattering clicks separated by eternities
Assuring me that being alone is more natural
Than anything conceived in such a dream.
--Annika 

I embrace the limitations of this space and, now that I have learned a few rules of the road, will respect them. Not to get too mushy, but I love all of you. You allowed me to become who I am. And I'm still becoming.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 06, 2025, 03:13:00 PMI embrace the limitations of this space and, now that I have learned a few rules of the road, will respect them. Not to get too mushy, but I love all of you. You allowed me to become who I am. And I'm still becoming.

Annika, your words moved me deeply. But in its honesty, acknowledging the yearning we all feel for something more tangible.

It's a longing I know well.

I also want to suggest something that worked for me, from a place of care, as powerful as online spaces can be, sometimes our hearts need the warmth of nearby people, the kind you can hear without speakers, and eyes you can meet without a screen.

If it's possible and safe for you, I hope you'll consider reaching out for local support, maybe an LGBTQ+ center, a meetup group, or even a small circle that shares your love for poetry and or something else.

~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: Lilis on May 06, 2025, 05:43:46 PMI also want to suggest something that worked for me, from a place of care, as powerful as online spaces can be, sometimes our hearts need the warmth of nearby people, the kind you can hear without speakers, and eyes you can meet without a screen.

Thanks, Lilis. I live on 20 acres of mountain prairie in the middle of nowhere, Montana, with my daughter and her partner (ironically, my daughter moved back from Virginia a few months after I 'came out' claiming she was concerned about my ability to live alone). Big announcement (that only Ashley knows): I have an appointment to begin HRT on June 4th. Another big announcement: the first book in a series I've been crafting for more than five years is scheduled to be published next week (I hope you read it, but I promised Lori and Danielle not to use this space for marketing). Not surprisingly, the entire series is about gender variance. I have lived so much of my life in a space uninhabited by 'real' people. But I have met many 'real' people on this space who have become my friends. My floundering about is not because of 'them' or you. The 'mea culpa' came from my heart. But it wasn't a confession; it was a celebration. I create characters. Now, I want to engage with people. Wish me luck. 

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 06, 2025, 06:49:21 PMBig announcement (that only Ashley knows): I have an appointment to begin HRT on June 4th. Another big announcement: the first book in a series I've been crafting for more than five years is scheduled to be published next week (I hope you read it, but I promised Lori and Danielle not to use this space for marketing). Not surprisingly, the entire series is about gender variance.

I started HRT last June as well, congratulations! It's a powerful step forward on your journey.

I'm really looking forward to reading your book. Let me know the title and where I can find it once it's ready. We can connect through DMs so you don't have to worry about violating the TOS.

That's really kind of your children, Annika. It sounds like you're in good hands for now.

~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: Lilis on May 06, 2025, 07:15:08 PMThat's really kind of your children, Annika. It sounds like you're in good hands for now.

They are! In some ways, they're more endearing than my children (they tend to listen to whatever it is I have to say).

I just want to say that this whole thread is wonderful, and it just fills my heart to read what you lovely people have written.


I thank everyone who's contributed to it.

I stopped wondering and struggling with what if and live with what is.  As I've said before, I'll never be Elizabeth Montgomery.  I can't twitch my nose  ;D  ;D  ;D

I really like days where I feel so womanly and also like days when I forget all about gender identity and live my life.

@D'Amalie
Dear D'Amalie:

Very well stated... and I wholeheartedly agree.

HUGS, Danielle [Northern Star Girl]

Quote from: D'Amalie on May 07, 2025, 08:35:14 AMI stopped wondering and struggling with what if and live with what is.  As I've said before, I'll never be Elizabeth Montgomery.  I can't twitch my nose  ;D  ;D  ;D

I really like days where I feel so womanly and also like days when I forget all about gender identity and live my life.

If I may I'd like to throw in my two cents. In a perfect world of acceptance
We all would pass and those that didn't would not have to fear of a near death beating by some skin head. For those brave souls that are willing to face all that a full time transition requires and can pull it off I say great, go for it. I do not hold on to my male persona because I want to. Make me 5'7" and 150 in my early 20's and knowing what I know now things might be different. When I became aware Phil Donahue used us to boost ratings like we were a freak show. I'm in my 70,s the sands in the hour glass are getting low. As I was talking with my sweetie yesterday I told her no matter what I am wearing I have found my peaceful place in being Bobbi. For most of my life I have been an angry person in my male role. I am at peace now because I am always Bobbi on the inside regardless of what you my see on the outside. Seek peace! Be the soft feminine creature you are do not let your limitations destroy the beautiful butterfly you hold in your heart and soul. Hugs to you all no matter where you are on the transition road. Bobbi

Let's face it we all have to be happy between our ears, regardless of anywhere else.

Quote from: Bobbisocksgrl70 on May 21, 2025, 11:56:56 AMLet's face it we all have to be happy between our ears, regardless of anywhere else.

Well said!

Quote from: Bobbisocksgrl70 on May 21, 2025, 11:56:56 AMLet's face it we all have to be happy between our ears, regardless of anywhere else.

Thanks Bobbi!

The idea that we can simply find peace "between our ears" sounds lovely..

but for many gender non-conforming, non-binary, or genderfluid people, it's not so simple, and often not even possible without some degree of external affirmation, safety or professional intervention.


~Lilis 💗

Quote from: Lilis on May 21, 2025, 12:13:06 PMThanks Bobbi!

The idea that we can simply find peace "between our ears" sounds lovely..

but for many gender non-conforming, non-binary, or genderfluid people, it's not so simple, and often not even possible without some degree of external affirmation, safety or professional intervention.


~Lilis 💗

Please don't misunderstand in no way am I saying it is simple or easy it takes work daily. That being said I can choose in my mind to see my self through my male or female persona regardless of how my physically appear. We have all seen gg's in Jeans a "T" and sneakers who is cute as a button. Keep that image in your mind and wear it well. Yes being female is or can be a state of dress but must also be a state of mind. The male persona can be strong where we seek to be soft and gentle. It's the difference between an gorilla and a butterfly. You can have on the prettiest dress but are a gorilla in your mind you'll just be a man in drag we all know females like that. Your mind and outlook is very important to your over all being. Our outlook and thinking go a long way to complete us as female. Hugs all! Bobbi

Bobbi, that's a very binary outlook to be posting in the Non-binary subforum. Not everyone is looking to be a "soft" woman. Especially here in NB Town.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 08:08:31 AMBobbi, that's a very binary outlook to be posting in the Non-binary subforum. Not everyone is looking to be a "soft" woman. Especially here in NB Town.

Hugs, Devlyn

Thanks Devlyn! 💗

Quote from: Bobbisocksgrl70 on May 23, 2025, 07:57:37 AMIt's the difference between an gorilla and a butterfly. You can have on the prettiest dress but are a gorilla in your mind you'll just be a man in drag we all know females like that.

I agree that the mindset and self-perception are powerful tools in affirming our identities.

That said, in a genderfluid context, the experience isn't always about aligning with a static male or female persona, it can be more about movement between, beyond, or outside those binaries altogether.

For some of us, being genderfluid isn't just shifting how we think about ourselves but living in a space where our gender experience doesn't neatly fit into the gorilla/butterfly or man/woman dichotomy.

That's why external understanding, safety, and validation often matter so much, because the world still tends to expect us to "pick a side."

Just wanted to share that perspective from where I'm standing.

Thanks again for contributing to the discussion.

Warmly,

~ Lilis 🫂

Please, I am not being judgmental of anyone. The gender movement is like a diamond with many facets. We each need to find out what works for each of us. I move from Bob to Bobbi every day in my manner of dress however mentally I have decided to maintain my mental outlook as Bobbi only. I accept all who have found their own happy place. Life is full of compromises no matter which way we go. My choices are made based on the following criteria, #1 my SO's happiness and acceptance of Bobbi. #2 My achievements and identity as my male self, #3 my inner needs #4 the fact I can never pass(I tried). So I guess in someways I want to have my cake and it too. Hugs all.

Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread.

I am learning so much about what non-binary really means and how it "feels?" So much of what has been said has hit home for me that now I am wondering if that is where I am. I have never felt "male" and hated playing that role. I also do not see myself as "female" despite all of my documents stating that I am. My psychologist described me as "transfeminine," and that seems to be the most accurate. And from what I am learning here from all of you, that would put me in the NB "category".

Quote from: Bobbisocksgrl70 on May 23, 2025, 10:20:05 AMPlease, I am not being judgmental of anyone. The gender movement is like a diamond with many facets. We each need to find out what works for each of us. I move from Bob to Bobbi every day in my manner of dress however mentally I have decided to maintain my mental outlook as Bobbi only. I accept all who have found their own happy place. Life is full of compromises no matter which way we go. My choices are made based on the following criteria, #1 my SO's happiness and acceptance of Bobbi. #2 My achievements and identity as my male self, #3 my inner needs #4 the fact I can never pass(I tried). So I guess in someways I want to have my cake and it too. Hugs all.

We each have our specific personal situations.  We each make accommodations, compromises, sacrifices, and engage in making progress towards our own transformation journeys. 

We each try to find the "area under the curve" that maximizes the satisfying of desires and dealing with constraints.


I wish you the best.  Enjoy life.  Show love for others.


Chrissy

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 23, 2025, 10:23:07 AMSo much of what has been said has hit home for me that now I am wondering if that is where I am. I have never felt "male" and hated playing that role.

It took me a long while to work out I was non-binary. Despite all the people I've cooperated with digging around in my head it, with all the skills they had and despite the knowledge I have, I still fell foul of the script that my gender must be polar, like everyone else's. But I'm not.

The moment I realised it was the script trapping me I ran into another problem, which was I kept kicking myself for being so dumb not to spot it earlier. I bruise easily :)

Quote from: Bobbisocksgrl70 on May 23, 2025, 10:20:05 AMPlease, I am not being judgmental of anyone. The gender movement is like a diamond with many facets. We each need to find out what works for each of us. I move from Bob to Bobbi every day in my manner of dress however mentally I have decided to maintain my mental outlook as Bobbi only. I accept all who have found their own happy place. Life is full of compromises no matter which way we go. My choices are made based on the following criteria, #1 my SO's happiness and acceptance of Bobbi. #2 My achievements and identity as my male self, #3 my inner needs #4 the fact I can never pass(I tried). So I guess in someways I want to have my cake and it too. Hugs all.

I didn't think you were. Sometimes people accidentally post in areas created for specific subsets of the community. This isn't the right board for "Men do this, women do that."  :)

That's all I was pointing out.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I don't know whether this is typical for people who've recently realized they're transgender, but I feel like I can only be genderfluid these days. In retrospect, it can easily be said that I always had strong feminine traits, but when the dam broke a few months ago, I began to have full-on feminine stretches that far exceeded anything I'd experienced before. Since then, those have increased in frequency and duration.

The entire process is very fluid at this stage, so I have no way of knowing where (or if) it will end up. Will I always be genderfluid? Will I eventually decide I'm clearly female? Will it be some ratio? Might it be "None of the above?" In the end, I think what matters most is how I'm most comfortable, happiest, best able to function in the larger world - and whether and how I'm able to inhabit that space. The rest may just be semantics.

But I am curious: Do folks who end up deciding they're clearly binary go through a genderfluid phase as they discover their gender identity?

Quote from: Pema on May 23, 2025, 12:23:18 PMDo folks who end up deciding they're clearly binary go through a genderfluid phase as they discover their gender identity?

YMMV :) People can go either way, although my experience of working with people is its common for folk to experience what feels like a genderfluid stage as their learned (internalised) transphobia breaks down. My personal experience of this was an increasing comfort with my feminine side even as my masculine side objected which made it a real rollercoaster at time. Then I spent quite a while (as in years) reasonably certain my feminine side was dominant, only to experience a swing back as became more comfortable with the idea that masculine and feminine gender expression could live comfortably within me. Basically, I quit fighting myself :)

Quote from: TanyaG on May 23, 2025, 12:36:15 PMYMMV :) People can go either way, although my experience of working with people is its common for folk to experience what feels like a genderfluid stage as their learned (internalised) transphobia breaks down. My personal experience of this was an increasing comfort with my feminine side even as my masculine side objected which made it a real rollercoaster at time. Then I spent quite a while (as in years) reasonably certain my feminine side was dominant, only to experience a swing back as became more comfortable with the idea that masculine and feminine gender expression could live comfortably within me. Basically, I quit fighting myself :)

I find this very interesting.  I was just reading about about internalized transphobia. I am really trying to understand how this relates to things. I got really stuck in the book I was reading. Now I see this here it has me lost

Quote from: Annaliese on May 23, 2025, 01:03:34 PMtI find this very interesting.  I was just reading about about internalized transphobia. I am really trying to understand how this relates to things. I got really stuck in the book I was reading. Now I see this here it has me lost

How do you mean, Annaliese? Do you feel like you experience internalized transphobia?

I'm reading what Tanya wrote as different from what I think that would mean, but maybe it isn't. What Tanya's saying sounds more to me like trying to fit oneself into a socially defined category and then eventually deciding that that just doesn't make sense for them. Sort of a broader acceptance of who they are.

I'd think that internalized transphobia would be more along the lines of feeling like it's "wrong" to feel the way you do, whatever that may be.

But I could be guessing and wildly off-target.

Quote from: Pema on May 23, 2025, 01:22:25 PMWhat Tanya's saying sounds more to me like trying to fit oneself into a socially defined category and then eventually deciding that that just doesn't make sense for them.

That's a part of what I'm aiming at. We're brought up to believe we can either be masculine or feminine and that if we're assigned male at birth (AMAB) we should be masculine, and if AFAB, should be feminine.

When we realise that our gender and sex assigned at birth aren't congruent (don't match) then we may not also be ready to accept that our gender need not be one of the two society licenses.

So many non-binary people go through a phase where we realise we have gender incongruence, but instinctively use a binary lens, because that's what we've been taught since we were tiny. In other words, for a time, a non-binary person with gender incongruence may think they must be a trans woman, when in fact they aren't, it is just their learning about gender only serves them up that alternative. Later, the truth may dawn that they lie somewhere in between. That's the whole challenge of being non-binary.

I hope I've explained that better this time, I'm still thinking through all the processes I went through to peel this particular onion.

Internalised transphobia is simply self-loathing. Unfortunately, it frequently manifests itself as plain old transphobia, with the person lashing out at other transgender people.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Annaliese on May 23, 2025, 01:03:34 PMI find this very interesting.  I was just reading about about internalized transphobia. I am really trying to understand how this relates to things. I got really stuck in the book I was reading. Now I see this here it has me lost

A couple of posts I've written might help with this, but this is an extract from one of them. The whole post can be found here (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2298206.html#msg2298206) (most of which is about what's called hyper-gendering):

How learned gender punishes us for non-compliance

One way those words in italics play out in real life is when someone's first glimmering they are trans dawns on them. If you've read earlier posts in this blog, the growing realisation pulls up all kinds of scripted responses we can't do much about to begin with, assuming we even recognise them for what they are.

This is part of gender dysphoria and comes out in feelings of disgust at our own trans thoughts and behaviours, all of which, I stress, would have been normative had we been raised in the gender with which we identify. In other words, all the lore we've absorbed about our home team (as in the gender we were brought up in) tells us the pack is going to eat us alive if we support the other team.

I'm leaving out non-binary people for this round, because, clearly, this situation is different for them. But for the rest of us, the instinctive solution is to prove to ourselves we deserve to belong to the gender we were brought up in to avoid being cast out.

If the gendering we were raised with was masculine, the moment we start getting thoughts to the contrary, we'll do everything we can to prove to ourselves we're stereotypically masculine, and if we're feminine, we'll opt for being stereotypically feminine.

That's a problem, because basic masculinity and femininity are already stereotypes which leave little room for manoeuvre, so when someone goes hyper, it's noticeable.

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 02:13:45 PMInternalised transphobia is simply self-loathing. Unfortunately, it frequently manifests itself as plain old transphobia, with the person lashing out at other transgender people.

Very true, Dev. Yet, the worst thing is when someone who is trans has internalised transphobia, we don't lash out at other people, we lash out at ourselves. That triggers everything from clothing purges to anxiety and low mood.

For everyone else (Dev knows this) what drives our internalised transphobia (sounds crazy but I've had to work through it as have others here) is what is called scripting.

Again, for anyone else reading, I wrote a post about it here (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2282584.html#msg2282584). Scripting is so powerful it influences many of our unconscious actions and reactions and disconnecting and binning scripts is one of the really helpful things therapy can do. Even understanding they are there and how they betray themselves in our thoughts and actions can make a massive difference to our well being.

Not to sound callous, but I'm fine with working with someone who is  hating on themselves.

It's when it bubbles up to taking it out on someone else that I get hot under the collar.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 02:29:06 PMNot to sound callous, but I'm fine with working with someone who is  hating on themselves. It's when it bubbles up to taking it out on someone else that I get hot under the collar.

Me too, no question about that. The irony is the same mechanism drives both the former and the latter. It shows how deep social conditioning and scripting's reach extends.

Just to clarify this, the idea that someone who is trans can have internalised transphobia sounds insane until you think about how deeply our learned responses go and how instinctive they become.

I've a really good example of this. I am very strongly right hand dominant, but I was taught to shuffle cards by someone who was left handed. I was only about eight or something and really keen to learn because I thought it was cool. To this day, when I pick up a deck of cards, I pick it up with my left hand. Everything else, I pick up with my right, and I cannot shuffle cards if I try leading with my right hand.

Now imagine being taught from the age of first awareness you must wear clothes and behave in ways consistent with your sex assigned at birth. By the time most of us have any awareness of gender, which is about three years old, we're already conditioned about what our birth sex wears. By the time we begin to suspect something is off, which is a maybe around six or eight, that's another three or five years of conditioning. But these are crucial years, because we learn like a sponge at a young age and a year of learning/conditioning then is as powerful as ten when we're thirty or forty.

Maybe we grow up in a conservative family or in a strongly gendered society too, in which case, we end up having to comply with their view on gender right through our teens until we leave home. At that point, we've had a minimum of eighteen years of having it pounded into us that boys wear boys clothes and girls wear girls clothes and that girls do not behave like boys and boys do not behave like girls.

And like me learning to shuffle cards 'wrong handed' all those years of programming have sunk in so deep we don't even know they are there. Not until we experiment with expressing ourselves as another gender, at which point all that subconscious learning loads its semi automatic and shoots us full of bullets loaded with disgust and loathing.

Which is very hard to stop because our subconscious by definition isn't visible to us, so we end up torturing ourselves without knowing why and without a clue how to stop.

I am a leftie. ;D Sinistra is the Latin word for "Left", which is where we get "Sinister" from, lol.

The thing I struggle with, and I do struggle with it quite a bit... is how people relate masculine and feminine to male and female. I've always seen them as quite distinctly separate from each other, in spite of the obvious. I am curious, if anyone cares to comment, how you see the these aspects in terms of being non-binary. Or even binary. Maybe this should be it's own thread.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 23, 2025, 03:17:10 PMhow people relate masculine and feminine to male and female.

I think much of that is how we are raised. It wasn't until much later that I realized that there are feminine males and masculine females. I had an aunt who was the latter. She would never back down from a fight, and my dad described her as "big enough to go bear hunting... with a stick." She was a wonderful woman, but tough as nails. Again, here we go with associating what we think is masculine or feminine behavior. I gotta figure out how to unlearn this crap.  ;D

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 23, 2025, 03:36:56 PMI think much of that is how we are raised. It wasn't until much later that I realized that there are feminine males and masculine females. I had an aunt who was the latter. She would never back down from a fight, and my dad described her as "big enough to go bear hunting... with a stick." She was a wonderful woman, but tough as nails. Again, here we go with associating what we think is masculine or feminine behavior. I gotta figure out how to unlearn this crap.  ;D

I know plenty of girls like that, Lori, lol. And that's why I think I struggle with it so much. And like... just being here... you see a whole range. Masculine girls, feminine dudes. Everyone in-between. And none of them really think it has anything to do with gender. You don't balk when a girl fixes your car because she's massively into engines and how stuff like that works. You don't bat an eye when some guy creates a fashion show because he's deeply into that stuff. They accept it so we accept it. Because why wouldn't we?

That's kind of why I posed the question. When it comes to being genderfluid, non-binary... do you see a distinction between masculine/feminine and male/female? And how does that affect how you feel and how you see yourself?

Quote from: Sephirah on May 23, 2025, 03:17:10 PMThe thing I struggle with, and I do struggle with it quite a bit... is how people relate masculine and feminine to male and female.

When I was working I used to play a thing I called the gender game with clients, it was very illuminating. Most cis people see gender and sex as a strongly coupled binary, while strongly binary trans people see them as a flipped binary. Every trans person I've ever dealt with who wasn't strongly binary revealed a mix of masculine and feminine traits in the game, somewhere along the spectrum between the polar ends of masc and femme.

I've always conceptualised it as being similar to being other sex attracted, mixed sex attracted and same sex attracted. Mixed sex attracted people can lie anywhere along the line between being attracted to their own sex or another sex, and will often have different scaling of romantic and sexual attraction to add flavour too it. So it goes with gender identity.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 23, 2025, 03:51:01 PMWhen I was working I used to play a thing I called the gender game with clients, it was very illuminating. Most cis people see gender and sex as a strongly coupled binary, while strongly binary trans people see them as a flipped binary. Every trans person I've ever dealt with who wasn't strongly binary revealed a mix of masculine and feminine traits in the game, somewhere along the spectrum between the polar ends of masc and femme.

I've always conceptualised it as being similar to being other sex attracted, mixed sex attracted and same sex attracted. Mixed sex attracted people can lie anywhere along the line between being attracted to their own sex or another sex, and will often have different scaling of romantic and sexual attraction to add flavour too it. So it goes with gender identity.

This is what I'm trying to understand, Tanya. And clearly not doing a good enough job posing what I want to try and grasp. Put sex and gender aside for a moment. What doesn't connect in my brain is this:

QuoteMost cis people see gender and sex as a strongly coupled binary, while strongly binary trans people see them as a flipped binary. Every trans person I've ever dealt with who wasn't strongly binary revealed a mix of masculine and feminine traits in the game, somewhere along the spectrum between the polar ends of masc and femme.

How do those traits relate to sex and gender? I get that cis people see it that way, and trans people see it that way, but what does masculine and feminine behaviour have to do with it? Obviously they're termed as such because people link them to sex and/or gender. But men can be, and some are feminine... and girls can be, and some are masculine, and literally everything in between. What trait does someone have to have to exhibit for them to see themselves as male, or female, or somewhere along the spectrum? Is it a physical thing or more of a mental... behavioural thing? That's kind of what my brain just doesn't get. And struggles to understand.

I'm probably just really dense, lol.  :embarrassed:

In my experience, it seems more mental than physical. I exhibited strong feminine tendencies as a young child. But these tendencies were so negatively reinforced I 'learned' how to act masculine. All subsequent reversions to feminine tendencies I considered perversions and not expressions of a true, underlying self. Heck, I agree with TanyaG on one point: sometimes I think I'm an onion with no underlying 'authentic' self. But that doesn't seem to be stopping me from peeling back the layers.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 23, 2025, 04:40:04 PMIn my experience, it seems more mental than physical. I exhibited strong feminine tendencies as a young child. But these tendencies were so negatively reinforced I 'learned' how to act masculine. All subsequent reversions to feminine tendencies I considered perversions and not expressions of a true, underlying self. Heck, I agree with TanyaG on one point: sometimes I think I'm an onion with no underlying 'authentic' self. But that doesn't seem to be stopping me from peeling back the layers.

Does this contribute to seeing yourself as female, Anni?

To give you some context... for me it is only physical. It's what Morpheus in The Matrix called "Residual Self Image." How you see yourself when you see yourself outside yourself. For me it has nothing to do with masculine or feminine. Sometimes I lean one way, or the other way, or both ways in a very short timeframe. But that self image is constant. Because... I don't really know why. And that's what I'm trying to understand.

If people had let you be okay with those feminine tendencies while being able to grow up as a guy, do you think you would see yourself differently than you do?

You have an authentic self, Anni. I see you every time I talk to you. But I want to keep that out of this conversation because it might colour your view if I say anything. I want to try to understand this to try and understand people better. :)

Quote from: Sephirah on May 23, 2025, 04:47:54 PMTo give you some context... for me it is only physical. It's what Morpheus in The Matrix called "Residual Self Image." How you see yourself when you see yourself outside yourself. For me it has nothing to do with masculine or feminine

Thanks, Sephirah! I really need to re-watch the Matrix. And the way you posed the question gave me an 'Ah Ha!' moment. When I dream through the eyes of the dreamer, I am always a woman. When I dream as an observer, it's a mixed bag. Male far more often than female. And, weirdly enough, occasionally neither. I am to the age where I seldom have an erotic dream but I've become a bit of a romantic in my dream life and the 'other person' is almost always female. But not always. Actually, I'm beginning to feel like I'm in a therapy session so I'll probably stop there and look for The Maxtrix on one of the streaming channels.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 23, 2025, 04:59:36 PMThanks, Sephirah! I really need to re-watch the Matrix. And the way you posed the question gave me an 'Ah Ha!' moment. When I dream through the eyes of the dreamer, I am always a woman. When I dream as an observer, it's a mixed bag. Male far more often than female. And, weirdly enough, occasionally neither. I am to the age where I seldom have an erotic dream but I've become a bit of a romantic in my dream life and the 'other person' is almost always female. But not always. Actually, I'm beginning to feel like I'm in a therapy session so I'll probably stop there and look for The Maxtrix on one of the streaming channels.

Sorry, sweetie. I know I can make people feel like that. <3

All I will say is... hold on to the dreamer. And the dream. That is deeper and more telling than a lot of stuff we try to create while we're awake. <3

Quote from: Sephirah on May 23, 2025, 04:09:38 PMHow do those traits relate to sex and gender? I get that cis people see it that way, and trans people see it that way, but what does masculine and feminine behaviour have to do with it? Obviously they're termed as such because people link them to sex and/or gender. But men can be, and some are feminine... and girls can be, and some are masculine, and literally everything in between. What trait does someone have to have to exhibit for them to see themselves as male, or female, or somewhere along the spectrum? Is it a physical thing or more of a mental... behavioural thing? That's kind of what my brain just doesn't get. And struggles to understand.

When we are born, we're a blank slate with a few pre-programmed instincts, but totally reliant on our parents. We can't even see properly until we're six weeks old. We have a physical sex assigned to us at birth by someone who looks at our genitals and decides boy or girl, but we're not even aware of that.

However, we are gendered from an early age, by virtue of how our parents dress us and teach us how to behave and not to behave. Somewhere around three years old, we become aware of that which is where the uncertainties for trans people begin and where the certainties for cis people also begin.

Gender isn't an on off switch, but instead a balance. So if someone has more masculine traits than feminine ones, they'll be read as male and vice versa. What happens next depends on other factors and much more crucially, on what model you use to understand what being trans means.

In the transsexualism model, which is almost the default here, to be trans you must reach an understanding you're in the wrong body for the gender you identify with. A woman with a preponderance of masculine traits who isn't seeking GAMC doesn't fit and if she's attracted to women will be regarded as a butch lesbian. A man with more feminine traits than masculine ones who doesn't seek GAMC doesn't fit either.

I've worked with 'stones', who are butch lesbians who don't like to be touched and who dislike contact with their genitals and all of them had much in common with trans people.

Non-binary people don't fit in the transsexualism model at all, because many of us aren't seeking to change sex.

The model I use is that gender incongruence is a characteristic and a desire to change physical sex is a symptom some people with that characteristic share.  Everyone here can be fitted into that model, which opens the door to effeminate men and masculine women, because they share gender incongruence with us. Yet these two groups don't regard themselves as being trans, because the word has such heavy connotations of 'wish to be another physical sex,' for which they have no desire. Using my model of gender incongruence, everyone's welcome and everyone's explained.

Does this make sense and/or answer your question? If not, tell me where it falls down for you and I'll refine it some more!

Quote from: Pema on May 23, 2025, 01:22:25 PMHow do you mean, Annaliese? Do you feel like you experience internalized transphobia?

I'm reading what Tanya wrote as different from what I think that would mean, but maybe it isn't. What Tanya's saying sounds more to me like trying to fit oneself into a socially defined category and then eventually deciding that that just doesn't make sense for them. Sort of a broader acceptance of who they are.

I'd think that internalized transphobia would be more along the lines of feeling like it's "wrong" to feel the way you do, whatever that may be.

But I could be guessing and wildly off-target.

Quote from: Pema on May 23, 2025, 01:22:25 PMHow do you mean, Annaliese? Do you feel like you experience internalized transphobia?

I'm reading what Tanya wrote as different from what I think that would mean, but maybe it isn't. What Tanya's saying sounds more to me like trying to fit oneself into a socially defined category and then eventually deciding that that just doesn't make sense for them. Sort of a broader acceptance of who they are.

I'd think that internalized transphobia would be more along the lines of feeling like it's "wrong" to feel the way you do, whatever that may be.

But I could be guessing and wildly off-target.

In reading also, it may sound like maybe it's a long life of internalized way of thinking one way. Being so intwined in to your being that you are not, even though you know the difference, to be able to help feel some pull from within. Like shame or guilt.
For example on my way from the beach to the mountains yesterday was about a 4 hour ride. My mind was having some kind of a little go at it about this very thing. Not right versus wrong, but but why should I listen to what has always been when what I feel is what makes me happy and content. If it is not right, then why does it feel so good and why do I like myself. How can these two things be the same but not fit.

This is where I had to just pull over and take a break.

I know I have been doing a lot of thinking a out telling certain members of my Family I am a transgender Woman lately maybe these are just some of my fears causing these thought.

Annaliese, I've been thinking about you - and others here - since reading your post this morning. Something within me feels very deeply the discomfort you're expressing and wants desperately to tell you something that would make it vanish. But I know that words won't accomplish that.

I feel in the core of my Being that there is nothing wrong with your feeling good and liking yourself when you allow yourself to be authentic. If other people react negatively to it, it's because they too have been brainwashed by our culture to believe that we should all fit into very specific boxes that were defined for us at birth. Not only does that make no sense, but we all have the option of saying at any moment, "No, I don't buy into that." The Bugis people of Southwest Sulawesi recognize five genders and embrace them all. If we lived there, we might well not experience any of this conflict, internal or external.

Reality in our culture includes having relationships with people - including ourselves! - who operate within a mental framework that says we should be something very specific. I think the first obstacle we have to overcome is our own resistance to accepting that we really do have the option to be fully ourselves - whomever, whatever that may be. There is no shame in that, even if people we love don't like it; their reaction doesn't make it wrong. I know going against convention is easier said than done, especially after decades of telling ourselves that our best option is to try to conform.

I'd bet that your thinking about sharing who you are with your family has a lot to do with the emotions you're feeling. It's huge, maybe the most significant revelation you'll share in your life. I'm right there with you. My mother will arrive on June 10th to spend a week with us. I feel it necessary to tell her during that visit that I'm transgender. Given my own lack of clarity about what to call my place on that continuum, I'm not sure exactly what or how much I'll tell her. I wish I were clear enough that I could just say I'm a trans woman, because the fact that I can't feels a bit like I'm some kind of unresolved mess, and that may wind up being a more difficult situation to explain and defend.

But I still know that there is nothing wrong with me, nothing for me to feel guilty or ashamed about. The challenge is in trying to find words to express ideas that might potentially lead another person to understand how our path is very different from theirs. All in a conceptual environment that has been defined in a way that doesn't include our experiences. Our best hope is that the other person is open-minded and/or loves us enough not to mind that we choose to deviate from the norm.

It's too many words, so let me just say the main point very simply: Doing and being what allows you to feel good, happy, content, and like yourself isn't wrong or shameful. The problem, the thing that "doesn't fit" is a really poor social model. You are a gift to this world by challenging the model and showing the truth. You are incredibly special.

Quote from: Pema on May 24, 2025, 01:54:26 PMDoing and being what allows you to feel good, happy, content, and like yourself isn't wrong or shameful.

Thanks, Pema. Your words resonated with me and will, hopefully, also bring Annaliese some comfort.

Quote from: Pema on May 24, 2025, 01:54:26 PMI think the first obstacle we have to overcome is our own resistance to accepting that we really do have the option to be fully ourselves - whomever, whatever that may be. There is no shame in that, even if people we love don't like it; their reaction doesn't make it wrong. I know going against convention is easier said than done, especially after decades of telling ourselves that our best option is to try to conform.

Amen Sister! 🌻

Ashley 💕

Quote from: Pema on May 24, 2025, 01:54:26 PMAnnaliese, I've been thinking about you - and others here - since reading your post this morning. Something within me feels very deeply the discomfort you're expressing and wants desperately to tell you something that would make it vanish. But I know that words won't accomplish that.

I feel in the core of my Being that there is nothing wrong with your feeling good and liking yourself when you allow yourself to be authentic. If other people react negatively to it, it's because they too have been brainwashed by our culture to believe that we should all fit into very specific boxes that were defined for us at birth. Not only does that make no sense, but we all have the option of saying at any moment, "No, I don't buy into that." The Bugis people of Southwest Sulawesi recognize five genders and embrace them all. If we lived there, we might well not experience any of this conflict, internal or external.

Reality in our culture includes having relationships with people - including ourselves! - who operate within a mental framework that says we should be something very specific. I think the first obstacle we have to overcome is our own resistance to accepting that we really do have the option to be fully ourselves - whomever, whatever that may be. There is no shame in that, even if people we love don't like it; their reaction doesn't make it wrong. I know going against convention is easier said than done, especially after decades of telling ourselves that our best option is to try to conform.

I'd bet that your thinking about sharing who you are with your family has a lot to do with the emotions you're feeling. It's huge, maybe the most significant revelation you'll share in your life. I'm right there with you. My mother will arrive on June 10th to spend a week with us. I feel it necessary to tell her during that visit that I'm transgender. Given my own lack of clarity about what to call my place on that continuum, I'm not sure exactly what or how much I'll tell her. I wish I were clear enough that I could just say I'm a trans woman, because the fact that I can't feels a bit like I'm some kind of unresolved mess, and that may wind up being a more difficult situation to explain and defend.

But I still know that there is nothing wrong with me, nothing for me to feel guilty or ashamed about. The challenge is in trying to find words to express ideas that might potentially lead another person to understand how our path is very different from theirs. All in a conceptual environment that has been defined in a way that doesn't include our experiences. Our best hope is that the other person is open-minded and/or loves us enough not to mind that we choose to deviate from the norm.

It's too many words, so let me just say the main point very simply: Doing and being what allows you to feel good, happy, content, and like yourself isn't wrong or shameful. The problem, the thing that "doesn't fit" is a really poor social model. You are a gift to this world by challenging the model and showing the truth. You are incredibly special.

Thank you Pema, I appreciate your response.  I was really feeling in a bit of a funk this weekend.  I know it is not me who should feel any guilt or shame for being who I am. I just have to get past these internal beliefs. I am working  on this. I don't owe anyone an explanation as to why THEY won't accept who I am. It is up to them to accept me or not. If they choose not to, so be it. They will carry the buerden. This is my stance on the topic. I am not saying it won't hurt, but I am not going to let this stand in my way. I will also know when the time is right to have these conversations.

I had a lot better trip home from the mountains. It may sound silly, but I tell my "self" self every time you bring up these thoughts about past thoughts or reasons why I should abandon my intentions to try and become someone else, that you will first give me reasons why I should if it makes me happy and content and would harm me if I did.

This helped on the was home, cause once the reaso s to make me happy started to come, the negative thoughts stopped.

I ended my trip early.  I just needed to get home. I really do appreciate your post, it definitely helped me. Thank you. 🫂 Annaliese

Quote from: Annaliese on May 25, 2025, 03:10:04 PMThank you Pema, I appreciate your response.  I was really feeling in a bit of a funk this weekend.  I know it is not me who should feel any guilt or shame for being who I am. I just have to get past these internal beliefs. I am working  on this. I don't owe anyone an explanation as to why THEY won't accept who I am. It is up to them to accept me or not. If they choose not to, so be it. They will carry the buerden. This is my stance on the topic. I am not saying it won't hurt, but I am not going to let this stand in my way. I will also know when the time is right to have these conversations.

I had a lot better trip home from the mountains. It may sound silly, but I tell my "self" self every time you bring up these thoughts about past thoughts or reasons why I should abandon my intentions to try and become someone else, that you will first give me reasons why I should if it makes me happy and content and would harm me if I did.

This helped on the was home, cause once the reaso s to make me happy started to come, the negative thoughts stopped.

I ended my trip early.  I just needed to get home. I really do appreciate your post, it definitely helped me. Thank you. 🫂 Annaliese

YES! I came in from the garden to have lunch and then saw your post. Your strength and courage come shining through, but most of all, the self-love.

I'm more than happy to remind you of what you already know. You - like so many here - inspire me to be as authentic as I can be. If I'm lucky, I still have a long road ahead of me.

We are here for and with each other.

🫂 Pema

Quote from: Pema on May 25, 2025, 05:04:59 PMYES! I came in from the garden to have lunch and then saw your post. Your strength and courage come shining through, but most of all, the self-love.

I'm more than happy to remind you of what you already know. You - like so many here - inspire me to be as authentic as I can be. If I'm lucky, I still have a long road ahead of me.

We are here for and with each other.

🫂 Pema

Yes and this is what I love about this place. I can come here and feel comfort and at ease. In a sense I was glad I went on this trip as it made see a couple things. I realized that one of the things that I used to spend so much of my time on, 4 wheeling,  is not that appealing to me as it was. I spent Saturday on the trails in the mountains and to be honest with myself I really wondered what I was doing here. I did enjoy the beautiful scenery and when I got to the top, I had lunch and it was peaceful and just so quiet. But the thrill I used to feel was not there. I was eager to get back home. I had plans to go to the outdoor shooting range on Sunday, but decided against this and just came home i stead.

I think this was a trip of sorts that needed to be taken to sort somethings out. Memorial Day has always been a trip for me to offroad.  I think this time since I was going alone, it brought up all those thoughts. I'm thinking it stirred these negative thought that I had to work through or maybe not. I do know my interests in this have definitely changed.

Again yes we are here for each other, and for that I am grateful.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 23, 2025, 02:15:26 PMA couple of posts I've written might help with this, but this is an extract from one of them. The whole post can be found here (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2298206.html#msg2298206) (most of which is about what's called hyper-gendering):

How learned gender punishes us for non-compliance

One way those words in italics play out in real life is when someone's first glimmering they are trans dawns on them. If you've read earlier posts in this blog, the growing realisation pulls up all kinds of scripted responses we can't do much about to begin with, assuming we even recognise them for what they are.

This is part of gender dysphoria and comes out in feelings of disgust at our own trans thoughts and behaviours, all of which, I stress, would have been normative had we been raised in the gender with which we identify. In other words, all the lore we've absorbed about our home team (as in the gender we were brought up in) tells us the pack is going to eat us alive if we support the other team.

I'm leaving out non-binary people for this round, because, clearly, this situation is different for them. But for the rest of us, the instinctive solution is to prove to ourselves we deserve to belong to the gender we were brought up in to avoid being cast out.

If the gendering we were raised with was masculine, the moment we start getting thoughts to the contrary, we'll do everything we can to prove to ourselves we're stereotypically masculine, and if we're feminine, we'll opt for being stereotypically feminine.

That's a problem, because basic masculinity and femininity are already stereotypes which leave little room for manoeuvre, so when someone goes hyper, it's noticeable.

I went back and reread that post and a couple of others. I really did relate to this one alot. I am reading your post you pointed to and am seeing so many things that resonate. Thank you.
I feel like I am seeing some light.
I think these are some of what I was feeling.
"  We commonly go through this when we begin to suspect we are trans. The easiest way out (or so it can appear) is to block out the growing awareness of our trans-ness, which can lead to periods of hyper-gendering (over emphasising we belong to the gender we've been raised in), purges of clothes, and even outbursts of transphobia. It can happen in repeating cycles."

Quote from: Annaliese on May 25, 2025, 06:30:29 PMI went back and reread that post and a couple of others. I really did relate to this one alot. I am reading your post you pointed to and am seeing so many things that resonate. Thank you.
I feel like I am seeing some light.
I think these are some of what I was feeling.
"  We commonly go through this when we begin to suspect we are trans. The easiest way out (or so it can appear) is to block out the growing awareness of our trans-ness, which can lead to periods of hyper-gendering (over emphasising we belong to the gender we've been raised in), purges of clothes, and even outbursts of transphobia. It can happen in repeating cycles."

I think that this is part of what keeps haunting me. But I know I will not be going back to this. I am determined to overcome my fears and with the strength i draw from here and my therapist i am finding the courage to keep moving forward. I am who I am.

Quote from: Annaliese on May 25, 2025, 05:26:31 PMI think this time since I was going alone, it brought up all those thoughts. I'm thinking it stirred these negative thought that I had to work through or maybe not. I do know my interests in this have definitely changed.

There are moments in every life which provide an opportunity for us to take stock and work through how we got to where we are and why. Negative thoughts often come with that, but that's an opportunity to explore what's putting the thoughts there, which can prove seriously useful!

One way of looking at negative thoughts is that if we're getting them and we haven't done anything bad to provoke them, then why are we getting negative thoughts in the first place? Sometimes that'll be because there's been a negative consequence of something we've done, but if we did that thing for a sufficiently good reason and in full understanding of why we were doing it, then there's a balance to be struck between the downsides of that decision and the upsides.

Equally, if we're getting negative thoughts because of say, an attitude someone else has developed toward us, then it's worth reframing the thought in terms of, 'If I were in their place, what would I have said or done?'

Intercepting negative thoughts at the moment they come to mind and taking them on one by one is a useful skill. Doing it well takes a lot of honesty but it's really worthwhile and once it becomes a habit will usually stop the thoughts happening. Ultimately, most of them are driven by subconscious scripts we hold and dismantling one of those scripts is a prize worth having!

Quote from: TanyaG on May 26, 2025, 09:33:06 AMThere are moments in every life which provide an opportunity for us to take stock and work through how we got to where we are and why. Negative thoughts often come with that, but that's an opportunity to explore what's putting the thoughts there, which can prove seriously useful!

One way of looking at negative thoughts is that if we're getting them and we haven't done anything bad to provoke them, then why are we getting negative thoughts in the first place? Sometimes that'll be because there's been a negative consequence of something we've done, but if we did that thing for a sufficiently good reason and in full understanding of why we were doing it, then there's a balance to be struck between the downsides of that decision and the upsides.

Equally, if we're getting negative thoughts because of say, an attitude someone else has developed toward us, then it's worth reframing the thought in terms of, 'If I were in their place, what would I have said or done?'

Intercepting negative thoughts at the moment they come to mind and taking them on one by one is a useful skill. Doing it well takes a lot of honesty but it's really worthwhile and once it becomes a habit will usually stop the thoughts happening. Ultimately, most of them are driven by subconscious scripts we hold and dismantling one of those scripts is a prize worth having!

Tanya, I love you, and want to thank you for this! 💋💞

Your framing really touch me! Especially the idea of negative thoughts as signposts rather than something inherently wrong with us.

That perspective has been a major part of my own healing journey, particularly around my gender identity and transitioning.

CBT-style tools like thought interception and reframing have been incredibly helpful in therapy, especially when old scripts about shame, fear, or "not being enough" get triggered.

For a long time, I internalized messages that made it hard to trust my own instincts or feel safe in my own skin.

But learning to slow down and examine those thoughts asking where they come from, and whether they actually serve me, has created space for more self-compassion and clarity.

This has been especially important for me as someone who identifies as genderfluid.

The nature of my gender expression isn't static, and that can bring up a whole other layer of doubt and vulnerability in a world that often demands consistency and boxes.

Intercepting those negative thoughts, like "Am I valid if I shift?" or "Will I ever be seen as real?" and reframing them as reflections of a deeper truth rather than a flaw has been life-changing.

It's helped me embrace the ebb and flow of my gender experience as something sacred rather than something to hide or explain away.

For me, transitioning isn't just physical, it's deeply mental and emotional.

And this kind of inner work, though sometimes hard, has helped me affirm my choices and honor my truth without constantly looking over my shoulder for approval or permission.

Thank you for putting this into words.

It's good to be reminded that growth often starts where discomfort shows up.

With Love,

~ Lilis 💗🐰

Quote from: Lilis on May 26, 2025, 12:14:43 PMIntercepting those negative thoughts, like "Am I valid if I shift?" or "Will I ever be seen as real?"—and reframing them as reflections of a deeper truth rather than a flaw has been life-changing.

Thank you for the thank you :)

Sometimes we all share a perverse tendency to use the least empowering source to judge negative thoughts, which turns them into a mechanism for letting the most negative version of ourselves voice opinions like, 'I told you it would all go wrong!' and 'If you shift once, shifting again would invalidate everything!'

This kind of thinking can be briefly comforting in a fatalistic kind of way, but long term it just derails our self confidence.

Whereas if instead you replay to your negative self with, 'Tanya thinks I'm a role model as a human being and doesn't give a tuppeny damn where I lie on the gender scale, today, tomorrow or next week,' and 'If Lilis isn't real, then what is real?' it adds agency to your already full portfolio of talents.

In my practice, we called them ANTs (Automatic Negative Thoughts). The best way to overcome them is to expose them.

Write it down, then really take a good look at it and ask yourself, "Is this true?" Usually, they are not.

A typical example is "Nothing good ever happens to me." Is that true? No, there have been good things happen to you. Etc.

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 26, 2025, 12:26:27 PMIn my practice, we called them ANTs (Automatic Negative Thoughts). The best way to overcome them is to expose them.

Good advice. Negative thoughts are common, especially in people who have been brought up (or been in relationships) where others have been hard to please, or actively undermined their self-confidence.

Letting them roll past unchallenged is not an option because otherwise the negative thoughts keep draining away confidence. I've worked with people who had such unchecked negative thoughts it was hard to even engage them in any kind of psychological work. As far as I'm concerned NTs are to be shot on sight :)

I love what all of you are saying, and I add my gratitude.

For me, the negative thoughts are rarely about myself or the validity of my experience (though occasionally they are). More often, they're along the lines of "How certain are you about this? If you're going to jump off this cliff, you want to be pretty clear that it's what you truly want." Or, more practically, "Are you confident that the benefits are worth the cost?"

That's all complicated further for me by the reality of living in the world we do. Most of the time, none the options available are what I *really* want, so my only path is to try to carve out a place where I think I could be as satisfied as I can be within a system that doesn't make much sense to me. So questions like whether I really want it or whether it's worth he price are usually impossible answer definitively.

Quote from: Pema on May 26, 2025, 12:57:31 PM"How certain are you about this? If you're going to jump off this cliff, you want to be pretty clear that it's what you truly want." Or, more practically, "Are you confident that the benefits are worth the cost?"

I went through a period like this. Those are not exactly negative thoughts, but your mind is wrestling with possible outcomes. I spent a lot of time in prayer and meditation to contemplate these very questions.

I just broke it down into simple steps.

"How certain are you about this?" --> How certain am I that I want this? Absolutely certain.

So certain that you are willing to risk all relationships? Yes, it is up to them to decide if they want to accept me or not. I cannot force them.

"Are you confident that the benefits are worth the cost?"

The cost of losing negativity from people who disapprove? Goodbye!

The cost of being isolated from the majority of society? That is temporary. We have support groups and like-minded people all over the world. If you are not a hermit, you will meet them.

The financial cost involved in gender-affirming care? So that I can spend the last years of my life HAPPY? Yes. There is insurance and financial assistance available. You just have to want this enough to seek it out.

Now do the same thing, but list the cons. Why are you uncertain? What exactly are you risking? What do you see the costs will be, and are they insurmountable?

Then compare your notes and see which way you are leaning.

For me, I decided it would be an adventure, a fresh start on a new life.
"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"  ;D

Quote from: Pema on May 26, 2025, 12:57:31 PMFor me, the negative thoughts are rarely about myself or the validity of my experience (though occasionally they are). More often, they're along the lines of "How certain are you about this?

Put like that, Pema, that's not really a negative thought so much as a rational question. It's quite reasonable to weigh the pros and cons with decisions like the ones you are facing and I believe the cons have to be considered to reach an informed decision. Which doesn't make the cons negative thoughts.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 23, 2025, 03:17:10 PMI am a leftie. ;D Sinistra is the Latin word for "Left", which is where we get "Sinister" from, lol.

The thing I struggle with, and I do struggle with it quite a bit... is how people relate masculine and feminine to male and female. I've always seen them as quite distinctly separate from each other, in spite of the obvious. I am curious, if anyone cares to comment, how you see the these aspects in terms of being non-binary. Or even binary. Maybe this should be it's own thread.

Maybe this should be its own thread, but I'll reply here for now. What Lauren is saying here is (I think) very much an area I find myself examining at the moment. I'm just not persuaded that describing human behavior with a binary system derived from physical sexual characteristics makes any sense. I recently read (Wikipedia: Gender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender)) that the social concept of gender only arose in the mid-20th century. Humans like to bin things for easy identification (and prediction!), and this is the system they're using now. We might just as well have used right- and left-handed (as we do with molecules).

Quote from: Sephirah on May 23, 2025, 03:46:45 PMAnd like... just being here... you see a whole range. Masculine girls, feminine dudes. Everyone in-between. And none of them really think it has anything to do with gender. You don't balk when a girl fixes your car because she's massively into engines and how stuff like that works. You don't bat an eye when some guy creates a fashion show because he's deeply into that stuff. They accept it so we accept it. Because why wouldn't we?

That's kind of why I posed the question. When it comes to being genderfluid, non-binary... do you see a distinction between masculine/feminine and male/female? And how does that affect how you feel and how you see yourself?

I see variations in human behavior and I can try to project them onto the prescribed axis of masculine and feminine and say "It's more toward this end than that end," but I don't find that to be a particularly meaningful or useful way to see people or the world.

As to how it affects how I see myself... I feel a bit like an alien - much like I always have - in that I don't understand the system or why it's been selected and imposed on us. It makes no sense to me. I see people as far more complex and interesting than this.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 23, 2025, 04:09:38 PMWhat trait does someone have to have to exhibit for them to see themselves as male, or female, or somewhere along the spectrum? Is it a physical thing or more of a mental... behavioural thing? That's kind of what my brain just doesn't get. And struggles to understand.

My struggle is not to understand the reasoning behind the model but to understand why this model is so widely accepted. More practically, I struggle to discern what my best options are for finding contentment in a society where this is the way people see me and each other.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 23, 2025, 04:47:54 PMTo give you some context... for me it is only physical. It's what Morpheus in The Matrix called "Residual Self Image." How you see yourself when you see yourself outside yourself. For me it has nothing to do with masculine or feminine. Sometimes I lean one way, or the other way, or both ways in a very short timeframe. But that self image is constant. Because... I don't really know why. And that's what I'm trying to understand.

If people had let you be okay with those feminine tendencies while being able to grow up as a guy, do you think you would see yourself differently than you do?

For me, at the moment, it is primarily mental and emotional, although - with the freedom I'm now granting myself, I'm exploring more physical/external possibilities. I believe that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. And I believe that our spiritual beings are all connected, All One, and that our souls are genderless. Incarnated as humans, we have physical bodies with sexual characteristics, but the traits of our souls within are what they are, and I don't think they deserve to be compressed into gender bins. What I've realized is that in this 3D existence and within this culture, when my multi-dimensional being is held up in front of the projector, the shadow that it casts on the gender wall looks more like a rabbit (woman) than a duck (man). When I sit in the audience watching this shadow-puppet show, i.e. "see myself outside myself," I now can't help but see that I'm much more of a woman than a man - as viewed through this filter.

I want to be very clear that these are my experiences, opinions, and beliefs. I not only respect but envy anyone who is content operating within this framework. Much like Lauren, I struggle with it, but I struggle with a great many of the choices that humanity has made about how to manifest their presence on this planet. I do my best to fit in where I can, and I treasure the opportunity. I feel like this opening-up of my life is an extraordinary gift that I could never have anticipated.

Quote from: Pema on May 26, 2025, 02:40:37 PMMaybe this should be its own thread, but I'll reply here for now. What Lauren is saying here is (I think) very much an area I find myself examining at the moment. I'm just not persuaded that describing human behavior with a binary system derived from physical sexual characteristics makes any sense. I recently read (Wikipedia: Gender (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender)) that the social concept of gender only arose in the mid-20th century. Humans like to bin things for easy identification (and prediction!), and this is the system they're using now. We might just as well have used right- and left-handed (as we do with molecules).

I see variations in human behavior and I can try to project them onto the prescribed axis of masculine and feminine and say "It's more toward this end than that end," but I don't find that to be a particularly meaningful or useful way to see people or the world.

As to how it affects how I see myself... I feel a bit like an alien - much like I always have - in that I don't understand the system or why it's been selected and imposed on us. It makes no sense to me. I see people as far more complex and interesting than this.

My struggle is not to understand the reasoning behind the model but to understand why this model is so widely accepted. More practically, I struggle to discern what my best options are for finding contentment in a society where this is the way people see me and each other.

For me, at the moment, it is primarily mental and emotional, although - with the freedom I'm now granting myself, I'm exploring more physical/external possibilities. I believe that we are spiritual beings having a human experience. And I believe that our spiritual beings are all connected, All One, and that our souls are genderless. Incarnated as humans, we have physical bodies with sexual characteristics, but the traits of our souls within are what they are, and I don't think they deserve to be compressed into gender bins. What I've realized is that in this 3D existence and within this culture, when my multi-dimensional being is held up in front of the projector, the shadow that it casts on the gender wall looks more like a rabbit (woman) than a duck (man). When I sit in the audience watching this shadow-puppet show, i.e. "see myself outside myself," I now can't help but see that I'm much more of a woman than a man - as viewed through this filter.

I want to be very clear that these are my experiences, opinions, and beliefs. I not only respect but envy anyone who is content operating within this framework. Much like Lauren, I struggle with it, but I struggle with a great many of the choices that humanity has made about how to manifest their presence on this planet. I do my best to fit in where I can, and I treasure the opportunity. I feel like this opening-up of my life is an extraordinary gift that I could never have anticipated.

I truly have a hard time distinguishing between all the differences in these definitions.  I try to grasp some of these but that's where I seem to get muddled. I know I am not in agreement with somethings that I have been brought up believing that I should be. It is a internalized balancing act of sorts going on. I am finding myself comprimising with myself, no its like a balancing act. Yes. Balancing the why I am happier, feeling better and more calmer being me as a woman than i was as a male when i was always angry, irritable, and controlling. I love this new me, i believe Pema I won't allow these negative thought to get to me.

Quote from: Annaliese on May 26, 2025, 03:03:10 PMI truly have a hard time distinguishing between all the differences in these definitions.  I try to grasp some of these but that's where I seem to get muddled. I know I am not in agreement with somethings that I have been brought up believing that I should be. It is a internalized balancing act of sorts going on. I am finding myself comprimising with myself, no its like a balancing act. Yes. Balancing the why I am happier, feeling better and more calmer being me as a woman than i was as a male when i was always angry, irritable, and controlling. I love this new me, i believe Pema I won't allow these negative thought to get to me.

Annaliese, I don't think you need to spend energy feeling muddled by definitions or figuring out why. You see clearly that you're happier being a woman. Just saying "I love this new me" is - to me - the clearest sign you could receive that you are on the right path. You have no idea how much joy it brings me to read these words from you.

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 26, 2025, 01:55:40 PMSo certain that you are willing to risk all relationships?

Such a profound discussion of things that matter most to many of us. Thank-you Pema, Tanya, Annaliese, Lilis, Sephirah and all who contributed. Lori concisely stated the greatest fear I've confronted since beginning the out of darkness part of my journey: whose love would I lose? whose respect would turn to titters? would my cell phone ever ring again and not be a scam or a marketer? I've been doing this long enough to know many of the answers. Everyone who loved me before loves me now. But, I hear the tittering tone of their voice in virtually all texts and most of the vanishingly rare phone calls. Sometimes the silence is so loud I'm tempted to send a group text stating: It was all a joke! But I refuse to be a joke. I have no idea what lies before me, but knowing it's a road I no longer walk alone gives me the strength to take the next step. Thanks to you.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 26, 2025, 04:53:29 PMEveryone who loved me before loves me now.

This is most important. We are at an age now where life is far too short to have negativity in it. The key is to truly accept yourself. Once you can love who you are, the rest is just noise. I would rather have silence than drama. I have encouraged everyone to ask questions and told them that I will try to help them understand. Very few are interested, so I let them go their way while I go mine. It is their decision, and I won't force them to be a part of my life that makes both of us uncomfortable.

Do I still love them? Unconditionally. But if they do not feel the same way, that is on them, not you.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on May 26, 2025, 04:53:29 PMBut, I hear the tittering tone of their voice in virtually all texts and most of the vanishingly rare phone calls. Sometimes the silence is so loud I'm tempted to send a group text stating: It was all a joke! But I refuse to be a joke

The biggest problem people have adjusting to someone they know being trans is their own anxiety. If you hear any tittering or experience any silence, it is their anxiety making its presence felt, anxiety about how they should relate to you, how they should behave toward you, even how they should think about you. To help people readjust the best way forward is to continue to be you so they can develop a new familiarity with you.

And once that process is done, a new normality will replace the old one. A challenge of being trans is that once you are out, you have to go through a phase where everyone else adjusts to you, which can be tiring when you've just gone through the same process with yourself! But it only has to be done once with each person.

Quote from: Annaliese on May 26, 2025, 03:03:10 PMI truly have a hard time distinguishing between all the differences in these definitions.  I try to grasp some of these but that's where I seem to get muddled. I know I am not in agreement with somethings that I have been brought up believing that I should be. It is a internalized balancing act of sorts going on. I am finding myself comprimising with myself, no its like a balancing act.

The issue with definitions is the way they collapse diverse groups under one banner, which results in stereotyping. If a definition is too tight, then it will cause multiple problems, one of which is people who wish to belong to the group trying to fit themselves into the definition and finding they don't fit the stereotype.

The word transgender implies that someone wishes to change gender, for example, while the word transsexual implied that someone wished to change sex.

Although I use the word 'trans' about myself because people understand it, by preference I would describe myself as 'gender incongruent' of GI because that's the reality of it for me. GI as a term embraces everyone on Susan's, be we post GAMC, pre GAMC or not contemplating GAMC in any way, and whether we are binary or non-binary. Every other label brings pressure to try and fit within the label and with that comes the confusion.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 27, 2025, 02:41:35 AMThe issue with definitions is the way they collapse diverse groups under one banner, which results in stereotyping. If a definition is too tight, then it will cause multiple problems, one of which is people who wish to belong to the group trying to fit themselves into the definition and finding they don't fit the stereotype.

The word transgender implies that someone wishes to change gender, for example, while the word transsexual implied that someone wished to change sex.

Although I use the word 'trans' about myself because people understand it, by preference I would describe myself as 'gender incongruent' of GI because that's the reality of it for me. GI as a term embraces everyone on Susan's, be we post GAMC, pre GAMC or not contemplating GAMC in any way, and whether we are binary or non-binary. Every other label brings pressure to try and fit within the label and with that comes the confusion.

Thank you, i think this clears somethings up. I am continuing to find my footing in this new life. I continue to learn more about myself each day. It's a roller coaster at times for sure.

Quote from: Annaliese on May 27, 2025, 04:45:23 AMI continue to learn more about myself each day.

QuoteIt's a roller coaster at times for sure.

This! 🫂💕

~ Lilis

These kind of hit the heart of what I'm trying to understand:

Quote from: TanyaG on May 24, 2025, 01:57:51 AMGender isn't an on off switch, but instead a balance. So if someone has more masculine traits than feminine ones, they'll be read as male and vice versa.

QuoteA woman with a preponderance of masculine traits who isn't seeking GAMC doesn't fit and if she's attracted to women will be regarded as a butch lesbian. A man with more feminine traits than masculine ones who doesn't seek GAMC doesn't fit either.

I never really equated masculine and feminine as being associated with gender. But then I didn't really come up with what I thought it was instead. It was just a.. thing. Probably because I've never really thought about people "not fitting", and I tend to read people from the vibe they give off. Which is likely contributed to by traits and things that I'm subconsciously seeing without actually seeing. So yeah I can see how it makes sense.

QuoteThe model I use is that gender incongruence is a characteristic and a desire to change physical sex is a symptom some people with that characteristic share.  Everyone here can be fitted into that model, which opens the door to effeminate men and masculine women, because they share gender incongruence with us. Yet these two groups don't regard themselves as being trans, because the word has such heavy connotations of 'wish to be another physical sex,' for which they have no desire. Using my model of gender incongruence, everyone's welcome and everyone's explained.

Does this make sense and/or answer your question? If not, tell me where it falls down for you and I'll refine it some more!

That makes more sense in my head, yes. Thank you. :) I don't really have an alternative to what contributes to gender so I'll go with your model because it means less headaches. :)

Quote from: Sephirah on May 27, 2025, 12:38:24 PMI don't really have an alternative to what contributes to gender so I'll go with your model because it means less headaches. :)

Yet another way of looking at this :)

Gender is a word for all the psychological, social and behavioural aspects that a culture associates with being male or female.

Western culture is strongly binary and groups gender - as defined above - into either masculine or feminine, meaning trait 'choices' are either/or situation depending on sex assigned at birth. There's no evidence which suggests this is anything but a convention society has settled on, but it's stable purely because most children don't get to make trait choices, they are imposed on them by their parents, wider family and social group.

If western culture was different, then all people, regardless of sex assigned at birth, might now be being brought up with what we regard as masculine traits, or conversely everyone might be being taught feminine traits, or there might even be no preference one way or another with children allowed to develop their own collection of traits.

Even the traits themselves are up for grabs, because they too are culturally defined, that's the shocker. There's no reason why another society couldn't decide to add traits, swap them around between genders, or add in extra genders. The latter already happens with third gender people in India and Pakistan, and two spirit native Americans; while the former can be seen in some Polynesian societies, and probably others, I just can't think of any at the moment because I'm hoping Lilis's date is going okay.

Which isn't to say society's conventions are right. Is this any closer to answering your question about what contributes to gender? Effectively, what I'm trying to say is that gender (again as defined above) is something society arrived at by accident over a few thousand years.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 27, 2025, 03:07:30 PMYet another way of looking at this :)

Gender is a word for all the psychological, social and behavioural aspects that a culture associates with being male or female.

Western culture is strongly binary and groups gender - as defined above - into either masculine or feminine, meaning trait 'choices' are either/or situation depending on sex assigned at birth. There's no evidence which suggests this is anything but a convention society has settled on, but it's stable purely because most children don't get to make trait choices, they are imposed on them by their parents, wider family and social group.

If western culture was different, then all people, regardless of sex assigned at birth, might now be being brought up with what we regard as masculine traits, or conversely everyone might be being taught feminine traits, or there might even be no preference one way or another with children allowed to develop their own collection of traits.

Even the traits themselves are up for grabs, because they too are culturally defined, that's the shocker. There's no reason why another society couldn't decide to add traits, swap them around between genders, or add in extra genders. The latter already happens with third gender people in India and Pakistan, and two spirit native Americans; while the former can be seen in some Polynesian societies, and probably others, I just can't think of any at the moment because I'm hoping Lilis's date is going okay.

Which isn't to say society's conventions are right. Is this any closer to answering your question about what contributes to gender? Effectively, what I'm trying to say is that gender (again as defined above) is something society arrived at by accident over a few thousand years.

Okay that makes sense, Tanya, thank you. I think I've just been looking at it the wrong way. And I kind of don't see gender at all. Which is probably why I could never describe it, lol. I'm still not sure I feel that way about myself or others. I tend to go with what other people feel about themselves with regard to gender, rather than what I feel. Because I only see the psychological, social and behavioural aspects, as you put it. I don't think I ever made that leap to forming it into a gender identity, or associating it with being male or female. But then I never really fit into society much, either. And the dysphoria I've had my whole life has only ever been physical. Self image, I guess. I don't really know why.

So it's massively helpful to see how other people view it, and that framework for trying to understand others. And thank you for your patience during what must have felt like trying to explain rocket science to a toddler, lol. <3 I think by that way of thinking either I don't have a gender, or I have... all of them? At least in my own head. In terms of physical self image, though, it's definitely binary. Mentally, more of a... blob, lol.

Quote from: Sephirah on May 27, 2025, 03:34:10 PMOkay that makes sense, Tanya, thank you. I think I've just been looking at it the wrong way. And I kind of don't see gender at all. Which is probably why I could never describe it, lol. I'm still not sure I feel that way about myself or others. I tend to go with what other people feel about themselves with regard to gender, rather than what I feel. Because I only see the psychological, social and behavioural aspects, as you put it. I don't think I ever made that leap to forming it into a gender identity, or associating it with being male or female. But then I never really fit into society much, either. And the dysphoria I've had my whole life has only ever been physical. Self image, I guess. I don't really know why.

So it's massively helpful to see how other people view it, and that framework for trying to understand others. And thank you for your patience during what must have felt like trying to explain rocket science to a toddler, lol. <3 I think by that way of thinking either I don't have a gender, or I have... all of them? At least in my own head. In terms of physical self image, though, it's definitely binary. Mentally, more of a... blob, lol.

This definitely can be taxing on the mind when you look at it from every angle. I always seem to think, yes i got it, then wham, another angle appears and I am rethinking it again. It seems like a ever moving line.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 27, 2025, 03:07:30 PMWestern culture is strongly binary and groups gender - as defined above - into either masculine or feminine, meaning trait 'choices' are either/or situation depending on sex assigned at birth. There's no evidence which suggests this is anything but a convention society has settled on, but it's stable purely because most children don't get to make trait choices, they are imposed on them by their parents, wider family and social group.

I was just reading a Brittanica article, entitled: Has Pink Always Been a "Girly" Color?
https://www.britannica.com/story/has-pink-always-been-a-girly-color#:~:text=At%20the%20beginning%20of%20the,and%20blue%20for%20the%20girls.

Back before pastels were popular for babies, most parents dressed their kids in white dresses until they were about six. ... this outfit was practical: white cotton could be easily bleached, and dresses allowed convenient access for diaper changing. Then pastel colors became a fad for babies. These pastels weren't marketed to a certain sex: both boys and girls were dressed in a wide array of pastels, including blue and pink.

At the beginning of the 20th century, some stores began suggesting "sex-appropriate" colors. In 1918 the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department claimed the "generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl."

The baby boomers in the 1940s were the first to be dressed in the sex-specific clothing that Americans are familiar with today. Boys and girls were dressed like miniature men and women instead of uniformly in children's dresses. Pink became the girls' color, blue the boys'.

Social constructs can be fickle, and as you stated, can vary across cultures.

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 27, 2025, 03:47:44 PMI was just reading a Brittanica article, entitled: Has Pink Always Been a "Girly" Color?
https://www.britannica.com/story/has-pink-always-been-a-girly-color#:~:text=At%20the%20beginning%20of%20the,and%20blue%20for%20the%20girls.

Back before pastels were popular for babies, most parents dressed their kids in white dresses until they were about six. ... this outfit was practical: white cotton could be easily bleached, and dresses allowed convenient access for diaper changing. Then pastel colors became a fad for babies. These pastels weren't marketed to a certain sex: both boys and girls were dressed in a wide array of pastels, including blue and pink.

At the beginning of the 20th century, some stores began suggesting "sex-appropriate" colors. In 1918 the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department claimed the "generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl."

The baby boomers in the 1940s were the first to be dressed in the sex-specific clothing that Americans are familiar with today. Boys and girls were dressed like miniature men and women instead of uniformly in children's dresses. Pink became the girls' color, blue the boys'.

Social constructs can be fickle, and as you stated, can vary across cultures.

so it was us baby boomers who flipped the script. How about that 🤔

Quote from: Annaliese on May 27, 2025, 03:50:20 PMso it was us baby boomers who flipped the script.

I was born in 1957, so I can blame my parents. Another reason to blame my parents.  ;D

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 27, 2025, 03:52:01 PMI was born in 1957, so I can blame my parents. Another reason to blame my parents.  ;D

yes same here, but still a baby boomer problem.