@Mrs. Oliphant Annika, I'm moving our conversation here just trying to be respectful of
@TanyaG's thread.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 15, 2025, 07:48:23 PMI have read and reread every word of your blog.
Oh, thank you for reading and stopping by.
QuoteLike you, I am him and I am her. Unlike you, sometimes I don't which I am.
This is where and why a gender therapist can be incredibly helpful not because anything is wrong with you, but to support you in navigating what's going on inside.
QuoteThe 'her' you present in this space is perfect.
I don't present anything, my gender is on a sliding scale and it present which ever on it's own.
QuoteBut, I have little doubt if you shared the 'him' with us, he, too, would be perfect.
I don't know, maybe he would know, and the people he interacts with.
QuoteGender and sexuality matter.They matter a lot.
These are two different things, they are not the same.
Sexuality is another different subject.
QuoteI mean, I've spent so much of my life looking for me. I'm getting closer to finding him and her. I can feel that in my soul. But that is the part that matters, the soul. I'm not sure gender has a darn thing to do with my soul. Or with yours.
Hahaha, does anyone know what gender is?
QuoteYou're a mother/father.
I think there's has been an misunderstanding.
I am not Assigned Female at Birth (AFAB).
I am Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB).
~ Lilis 💗
Quote from: Lilis on April 15, 2025, 08:51:56 PMI think there's has been an misunderstanding.
Misunderstanding is my forte. Lilis, I'm not going to respond point by point. I can't. You are not who I think you are, you are you. If I'm not in 'misunderstanding' mode, 'he' has little interest in sharing with me. I respect that, but I still like him. Anymore, I call myself gender queer. Fluid seemed like an euphemism. I grew up hating the word 'queer.' But now, I embrace it. I have a therapist. She's helpful. But this is one road I walk alone. Sexuality? I'm in love with a woman with a penis. And I'm straight, or lesbian, depending upon who I am when I awaken. I'm also an AMAB, though I suspected that was a mistake by the time I was four. As far as reading and stopping by? I suppose. But when I read what you have to say, I'm searching for myself. The person revealing herself in your words gives me hope I will find me. Him or her (they/them never seemed to fit). Someday, I will find her. Even if she's a 'him.' I want to be your friend, Lilis. Gender and sexuality have nothing to do with that hope. You do. If you allow me to, I will share the secrets of my soul. If you allow yourself to, I will embrace your secrets as a sacred trust. That's what friends do. Not that I have any, not since I came out. But I could really use one.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 15, 2025, 09:13:54 PMMisunderstanding is my forte. Lilis, I'm not going to respond point by point. I can't. You are not who I think you are, you are you. If I'm not in 'misunderstanding' mode, 'he' has little interest in sharing with me. I respect that, but I still like him.
I have no control over it. Last I heard, he's grieving and longing to hear from a woman with whom the flow and connection of conversation felt effortless. But after weeks of talking, she suddenly vanished into the void of cyberspace.
Maybe one day you'll reach him too, but not here and not now, it doesn't seem likely.
He's still processing that pain.
QuoteSexuality? I'm in love with a woman with a penis. And I'm straight, or lesbian, depending upon who I am when I awaken. I'm also an AMAB, though I suspected that was a mistake by the time I was four.
Sexuality and identity can be complex, and it's totally okay that yours shifts. I am bisexual and my sexuality is as fluid as my gender so I understand.
I don't understand what you mean about "a woman with a penis?"
My understanding is that gender has no physical substance. Can expand on what you mean?
QuoteAs far as reading and stopping by? I suppose. But when I read what you have to say, I'm searching for myself. The person revealing herself in your words gives me hope I will find me. Him or her (they/them never seemed to fit). Someday, I will find her. Even if she's a 'him.'
It means a lot that my words resonate with you in some way. I really hope your journey leads you to the version of yourself you've been searching for whoever that turns out to be.
QuoteI want to be your friend, Lilis. Gender and sexuality have nothing to do with that hope. You do.
Sure, we can be online friends! I visit this forum daily, so we can always connect here and support each other.
QuoteIf you allow me to, I will share the secrets of my soul. If you allow yourself to, I will embrace your secrets as a sacred trust. That's what friends do. Not that I have any, not since I came out. But I could really use one.
There's no need to share all our secrets, but let's be there for each other with kind words and a listening ear. At the same time, it's important to be cautious about sharing too much personal information. This is an open forum, we're nothing more than kind strangers trying our best to help one another by sharing what we've learned from our own journeys.
~ Lilis 💗
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 15, 2025, 09:13:54 PMIf I'm not in 'misunderstanding' mode, 'he' has little interest in sharing with me. I respect that, but I still like him. Anymore, I call myself gender queer. Fluid seemed like an euphemism. I grew up hating the word 'queer.'
The question I'd ask here, apart from it feels a little formal referring to you as Mrs Oliphant (I love first names), is: have you thought about why 'he' doesn't have any interest in sharing with 'me'.
It's worth exploring what the barrier is between 'he' and 'me' and
why 'he' and 'me' exist in you. If you were brought up to hate the word queer that might be an entry point we can use?
Quote from: Mrs. Elephant on April 15, 2025, 09:13:54 PMIf you allow me to, I will share the secrets of my soul
Lillis is right, oversharing, particularly of information that might identify us if we don't want to be identified, isn't a great idea. But sharing the contents of our heads, as in our thoughts and feelings, can't identify us and can be extraordinarily helpful.
The reason it's useful sharing thoughts and feelings is that in our attempts to be normative we pitch our natural gender identity into a guerrilla war against the identity we were brought up in, and every time the shooting starts, it's against a background of loudspeakers blaring out propaganda to inspire the government funded troops of our upbringing (I'm stretching this metaphor for sure...) to greater sacrifice agains the less well resourced and numerically outnumbered guerillas of our own nature. Believe what's coming over the Tannoy and the guerillas are ideologically driven devils, but what if they're not? What if instead, they're fighting for the just cause of their freedom?
Even sharing thoughts and feelings goes against some critical traits AMAB people were brought up with. It can feel wrong and it can feel weak, not that that's what Lillis is getting at. But it has to be done in order to work out what the propaganda the 'other side' is sending out and to understand why it does it. That's a choke point in most trans people's therapy.
In your writing 'he has little interest in sharing with me' have you hit that block? Is that your way of saying it? Or something else?
Quote from: Lilis on April 15, 2025, 10:29:00 PMI don't understand what you mean about "a woman with a penis?"
My understanding is that gender has no physical substance. Can expand on what you mean?
The void of cyberspace and the seventh circle of hell have much in common. You so eloquently expanded on what I meant to say (gender is not physical) nothing I could add would be of value. Thanks, Lilis.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 16, 2025, 04:34:11 AMIn your writing 'he has little interest in sharing with me' have you hit that block? Is that your way of saying it? Or something else?
I'm not sure what I mean, TanyaG. It's been a difficult few days dealing with some personal stuff. I really don't want to say anything to anyone until I'm in a better place. Not because I don't have things I need to say and even more things I need to hear but because I'm so afraid I will say the 'wrong' things and nothing more will be said to me that I need to hear. I'll get busy 'scoring' a bit later today. Thanks
The verdict is in! I completed a rather complex 'test' under TanyaG's guidance and it came back 'strongly feminine' (which in itself is a bit oxymoronic). I think that means I'm not a queer anymore; I'm a woman (which some of you may have already suspected). I'm in no rush to change my pronouns, though; it's been less than two years since I came out to my daughter as 'genderfluid.' However, going forward, I intend to embrace my 'womanhood' and see where the journey takes me. Baby steps. I am excited beginning this next phase but it took me eight years to accept and express my queerness so I don't feel as though there is a need to rush. I greatly appreciate the time and effort TanyaG committed on behalf. I know it's just another tool in my toolbox (darn, those male metaphors are pesky), but it is an important one.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 17, 2025, 01:47:14 PMI think that means I'm not a queer anymore; I'm a woman (which some of you may have already suspected).
This made me smile so much, Annika!
Congratulations on embracing this next chapter of your journey!
~ Lilis 🫂💗
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 17, 2025, 01:47:14 PMThe verdict is in! I completed a rather complex 'test' under TanyaG's guidance and it came back 'strongly feminine' (which in itself is a bit oxymoronic). I think that means I'm not a queer anymore
I'd clarify the situation this way. You consistently picked feminine traits in your first pass through the Gender Game (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2299203.html#msg2299203), Annika, which can be a good pointer, but it is in no way a validated tool, hence the word, 'game'.
Just as emotions aren't a problem per se, it's what you do with them that creates goodness or badness, so it goes with gender traits (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2299322.html#msg2299322). It's what you
do with them which defines you.
So, it's up to each person to decide what they do with the gender traits they are sympathetic to, which may or may not include a decision about transition, and a decision about their sex. Only the person concerned is in a place to take those decisions, depending on the balance. I for example am almost fifty:fifty masculine traits versus feminine ones.
It's a complex process, because when people who are in between the moment they
suspect they are trans and
accepting they are trans (and before even working out what sort of trans they are) they tend to rationalise when they should be reflecting.
In other words, they work on
answers instead of asking
questions and exploring more. Decisions are comforting because they bring a veneer of certainty, but that certainty can be off or wrong.
To give a for instance, AMAB people who have feminine gender expression are often seen by others as being gay men. That's because strongly binary people high in masculine gender traits equate AMAB with masculinity and masculinity with sexual attraction to women. Vice versa, those people equate femininity with attraction to men, hence
to them someone who appears male but has feminine gender expression
must be gay. That's pure scripting.
I've worked with people who've rationalised this way about
themselves. If they do, it becomes a two pronged psychological fork they end up using to prod themselves, because the odds are that, like the majority of people, they are straight; and second, they very often hold learned gendered scripts which are in no way sympathetic to same sex attracted people.
If someone makes this sort of wrong connection, they can end up delaying the discovery they are trans by years, if not decades, because of all the time they waste trying to persuade themselves they're not gay, up to and including episodes of hyper masculinity or hyper femininity (https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,249043.msg2298206.html#msg2298206).
It's like building a house, get the foundations aligned and the frame will be aligned. Get the frame aligned and the walls will be square. Get the walls square and everything from units going in easily and pictures hanging right follows.
It sounds simple put like that but get the foundations out by an amount the eye cannot detect and it can pile up issues later on :-) Measure twice, cut once, isn't that what they say?
Quote from: TanyaG on April 18, 2025, 03:25:22 AMMeasure twice, cut once, isn't that what they say?
Masculine metaphors certainly are ubiquitous. As I said, the degree of femineity revealed by the 'game' is a tool in my tool box (or needle in my sewing kit) and not a map and compass for the journey I am on. I am proceeding very slowly with this. And cautiously. However, I would rather be a woman than the chimera I attempted to mimic. But, the most important thing is to become who I am. Lilis calls it 'unveiling'. For me, it's more like ripping off masks I've worn since childhood in order to convince other people who I am, since I have an inconsistent sense of self. All that being said, I am so grateful for having you to turn to when I come upon something I do not understand about this journey. And that seem to occur quite often.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 02:03:16 PMI am proceeding very slowly with this. And cautiously. However, I would rather be a woman than the chimera I attempted to mimic.
QuoteBut, the most important thing is to become who I am. Lilis calls it 'unveiling'. For me, it's more like ripping off masks I've worn since childhood in order to convince other people who I am, since I have an inconsistent sense of self.
Yes, but it's also important to remember that we're not therapists, gender specialists, or medical professionals.
So please take what we share here with a grain of salt, and don't try to navigate this entirely on your own without support from qualified professionals.
What we offer is meant for discussion and shared experience, not diagnosis or treatment.
~ Lilis 🫂
My head hurts reading this, lol. :-\
You are who you are. Whoever that is. That's all there has to be. You are beautiful because you are you. Again, that's all there has to be. When it isn't all there has to be... that's where issues start.
I admit I don't really see people in terms of gender. So I'm probably a bit biased. I love people because they're people. Lilis is Lilis, Annika is Annika. Whoever you feel like is entirely up to you and makes no difference to me. I don't care about what bits are where. Doesn't make your heart any less warm. Or your smile any less sincere.
I am kind of the village idiot when it comes to complex understanding of gender. To me, people are just people. I did click on that link but it was way too complicated for me, lol. I am your online personality test girl. Wholly inaccurate and subjective but hey. ;D I tend to go with intuition over logic, lol. I would make a really bad Vulcan. ;D
If Lilis wants to be called she/her, then she's Lilis. If Lilis wanted to be called he/him, he'd also be Lilis. No less beautiful and no less amazing. To me it's very simple. Same with anyone.
I totally agree with Lilis and with Sephirah, and appreciate TanyaG's insight. I go elsewhere for therapy; I visit here for connection. For community. But the line sometimes becomes blurred because I carry so much ambiguity into both places. And into my own self-healing, meditation. Reflection. Prayer. But I know without a doubt I see myself more clearly now when I look into a mirror than I did before I joined Susan's or insisted the VA provided me with a therapist. Though both roads tend to get a bit rocky at times.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 04:44:23 PMI totally agree with Lilis and with Sephirah, and appreciate TanyaG's insight. I go elsewhere for therapy; I visit here for connection. For community. But the line sometimes becomes blurred because I carry so much ambiguity into both places. And into my own self-healing, meditation. Reflection. Prayer. But I know without a doubt I see myself more clearly now when I look into a mirror than I did before I joined Susan's or insisted the VA provided me with a therapist. Though both roads tend to get a bit rocky at times.
Annika, you have an amazing smile. You are you. Who that is, is for you. But your smile.. is for everyone. I told you before I even saw you that you are gorgeous. I stand by that. :)
As Nietzche said: "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
We are both still here. :)
Quote from: Sephirah on April 18, 2025, 04:49:46 PMAs Nietzche said: "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
My umpteenth wife had a juvenile delinquent son who, after many years in kiddie prison, paraphrased Nietzsche thusly in a poem, "That which doesn't kill us, makes us colder..." I've often thought about that. It was a good poem. We are both still here, Sephirah. And neither of us are colder. We chose to be stronger. My smile is for everyone. Hopefully, it will someday make someone stronger. There's already more than enough coldness in the world. I wish I could take back so many words I've said in my life. I pray all the words I have left to say make people stronger. Or, at the very least, tease a smile from their lips.
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 07:29:29 PMMy umpteenth wife had a juvenile delinquent son who, after many years in kiddie prison, paraphrased Nietzsche thusly in a poem, "That which doesn't kill us, makes us colder..."
There's an argument for that, too. Some people go down that road. I've been down that road myself. A long time ago. It took a lot of hard work and a lot of kind people to help me see that... it doesn't have to be that way. It's a choice. It depends on what you're going through and the people you have around you, I suspect.
It's akin to another Nietzche quote:
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Quote from: Sephirah on April 18, 2025, 07:35:54 PMthe abyss gazes also into you."
Beautiful! And a Nietzsche quote I don't recall reading (and once upon a time I considered myself an existentialist). I jumped back in to add to my previous post "Thanks for your kind words, Sephirah. They made me smile."
Yeah. And those monsters can be so appealing and the abyss so tempting. We made other choices. Sometimes, I even made the right choice. But not always. While we're on the subject, do you have any idea what the heck Hegel was talking about? Personally, I think Phenomenology is more about psychology than philosophy. Serious question, girl. Are we created by what we behold? And do we create the beheld?
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 04:44:23 PMI see myself more clearly now when I look into a mirror than I did before I joined Susan's or insisted the VA provided me with a therapist. Though both roads tend to get a bit rocky at times.
Navigating the rocky roads of the mind is as much about understanding what the rocks represent and why they are there as it is about traveling the road itself. You can tell when you're close to a rock in therapy because stress levels rise as the rock moves from being something you can drive around into something that must be considered, but the stress levels fall after closure, because the rock has usually dissolved into a heap of pebbles interesting of themselves, but too small to get in the way.
Is the term genderfluid the same as bigender? Or is genderfluid not necessarily binary, that is, not necessarily limited to the common genders of male and female?
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 07:22:20 AMIs the term genderfluid the same as bigender? Or is genderfluid not necessarily binary, that is, not necessarily limited to the common genders of male and female?
My 2p is all these terms are yet to gain firm definitions?
Bigender doesn't seem to be used much? If so, I've mostly heard it used by people (or about people) who I would think of as nonbinary. In other words, somewhere in the middle of polar gender axis? As in 'two spirit' or having elements of two genders?
Gender fluid I think of as being like fluid sexuality (and all of Anne Diamond's papers,) so describing someone whose gender identity varies and isn't fixed.
I'd love to hear what others think.
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 07:22:20 AMOr is genderfluid not necessarily binary, that is, not necessarily limited to the common genders of male and female?
This! In my experience as someone who identifies as genderfluid, the difference is that my gender has never felt binary though for some, it might be.
My own journey has been flowing through different expressions of gender.
Sometimes feminine, sometimes masculine, and sometimes in states that don't sit neatly in either category.
It's like my gender is more like a dance across a spectrum that can include male or female, neither, or something my own (like a combination of both at the same time).
For example it can be male by the time I log out of this chat.
I hope that helps.
I'm not entirely sure about the experience of being bigender, but I believe it often involves feeling male and female, moving between the two.
Hopefully, someone who identifies as bigender can share their perspective too.
~ Lilis 💗
When I think it would be wise to present as male, I can do it.
It does not "feel right" but I do it.
I do not think that is being bigender per se, as this is a conscious decision to "play the male role" in some selected situations. It is harder to tolerate this though. For instance, in TSA security lines and when renting a car, I will go the male route as that matches my ID documentation. I just do not want any hassles, extra scrutiny, etc. if I was being my usual self.
Some may think this is bigender but I do not think so.
.
Chrissy
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 01:25:44 PMSome may think this is bigender but I do not think so.
I'd call it pragmatic :-)
Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 08:03:46 PMBeautiful! And a Nietzsche quote I don't recall reading (and once upon a time I considered myself an existentialist). I jumped back in to add to my previous post "Thanks for your kind words, Sephirah. They made me smile."
Yeah. And those monsters can be so appealing and the abyss so tempting. We made other choices. Sometimes, I even made the right choice. But not always. While we're on the subject, do you have any idea what the heck Hegel was talking about? Personally, I think Phenomenology is more about psychology than philosophy. Serious question, girl. Are we created by what we behold? And do we create the beheld?
Sorry for the tangent. I had not heard of Hegel before now, but I've done a little research and I do kinda sorta agree with his holistic approach to things. To a point. I tend to think of it more as "Reality is perception." I do think that a lot of how we are is shaped by other people around us. I think that's one reason a lot of trans folks don't accept themselves until later in life. I think a lot of our sense of self is shaped by what we behold. But not all of it. And likewise we do that for other people, whether we realise it or not.
It's a bit like... hmm.. the quote from Michaelangelo:
"In every block of marble I see a statue... I have only to hew away the rough walls that imprison the lovely apparition to reveal it." That's the question. Is the statue there already or is it created? I kind of think it's a bit of both.
Quote from: Lilis on April 19, 2025, 01:14:20 PMThis! In my experience as someone who identifies as genderfluid, the difference is that my gender has never felt binary though for some, it might be.
My own journey has been flowing through different expressions of gender.
Sometimes feminine, sometimes masculine, and sometimes in states that don't sit neatly in either category.
It's like my gender is more like a dance across a spectrum that can include male or female, neither, or something my own (like a combination of both at the same time).
For example it can be male by the time I log out of this chat.
I hope that helps.
I'm not entirely sure about the experience of being bigender, but I believe it often involves feeling male and female, moving between the two.
Hopefully, someone who identifies as bigender can share their perspective too.
~ Lilis 💗
Do you mind if I ask a question, Lilis? Because this is way out of my scope of knowledge. Do you see a difference between Masculine and Male, and Feminine and Female? Like... if you feel feminine, does that mean you see yourself as female? And vice versa? I'm really curious about this because I always separated them in my head.
Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 01:25:44 PMWhen I think it would be wise to present as male, I can do it.
It does not "feel right" but I do it.
I do not think that is being bigender per se, as this is a conscious decision to "play the male role" in some selected situations.
Exactly, and only you would know what your conscious state is.
I'm guessing a woman wearing male clothes at that point, correct me if I am wrong.
QuoteSome may think this is bigender but I do not think so.
But gender as we know it is internal and personal.
So, how can we think externally for how someone else feels and think internally?
You see what is the problem there?
It's like a cisgender male person doing the thinking for you from an external angle.
Does that make sense?
~ Lilis 🫂
Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 01:33:11 PMDo you mind if I ask a question, Lilis? Because this is way out of my scope of knowledge. Do you see a difference between Masculine and Male, and Feminine and Female? Like... if you feel feminine, does that mean you see yourself as female? And vice versa? I'm really curious about this because I always separated them in my head.
Yes, there are periods at times that my gender can feel 100% male or female, but it's not fixed.
Thank you. <3 I can't even begin to imagine what that feels like but this is why it's always good learning from people who do know. :)
Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 01:49:51 PMThank you. <3 I can't even begin to imagine what that feels like but this is why it's always good learning from people who do know. :)
You're welcome. Oh, it's a rocky experience for sure, but I'm managing thanks to therapy, and my spirituality.
~ Lilis 💗
Quote from: Lilis on April 19, 2025, 01:52:56 PMYou're welcome. Oh, it's a rocky experience for sure, but I'm managing thanks to therapy, and my spirituality.
~ Lilis 💗
And being awesome. Don't forget the most important part. ;)
Labels are subjective, for sure.
Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 01:33:11 PMThat's the question. Is the statue there already or is it created? I kind of think it's a bit of both.
I think writing is a bit like that, too. All the stories are already there. And they've all been told a thousand times, yet, each one is unique. My understanding of Nietzsche and Hegel is little more than faint memories of books read long ago. I merely had a brief insight inspired by your 'monsters' quote that it seemed similar to Hegel's dynamic between the observed and the observer. It never occurred to me that existentialism can be organically linked to phenomenology. And there is a good chance it can't be. I haven't had a rigorous philosophical discussion with anyone since graduate school. So, mostly, I was just having fun and reminiscing. You, on the other hand, took my flight of fancy serious enough to acquire a deeper understanding of Hegel than I currently have (and I've taken graduate level seminars on the dude). That amazes me so much, Sephirah. Also, I would like to jump in a little bit on the discussion you are having with Lilis. I'm more like you. I don't feel gender as a spectrum. It's more like looking through a glass darkly. Somedays, I see myself more clearly than other days. But I think I'm seeing the same thing each time I look into the mirror. But I never see my image clearly enough to know, with any degree of confidence, at whom I'm looking. Oddly enough, that seems to tie back into 'monsters' and the dynamic of perception. One of my favorite quotes about Hegel (and I'm paraphrasing badly) is that German students read him in translation on the off chance the translator understands what the heck he's talking about. Thank you.
Every story has already been told. The only thing that matters is the person doing the telling.
And yeah... girl, your thoughts matter to me. And I learned a lot learning about Hegel and his views. :)
I still... how you do dialogue in the things you write is an actual marvel to me. That's a life lived. It's a kind of poetry.
I see you, Annika. For whatever that's worth. Even when you don't. *hugs*
Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 05:01:01 PMI see you, Annika. For whatever that's worth. Even when you don't. *hugs*
And it is good to be seen, Sephirah. I never did like Nietzsche much. The whole 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' and 'will to power' thing. But I understood him. Camus, Sartre, Kirkegaard said many of the same things, but they said them 'slant'. Brutal honesty can be a bit off-putting. Plato (Socrates by projection) is my favorite (and he wrote engaging dialog). If you have a 'favorite' philosopher, I would love to meet him (or her--though female philosophers are vanishingly rare (Arendt is awesome and de Beauvoir is a bit in the existentialist camp)). If you have the inclination, pick one (gender regardless). I think it would be a lively conversation. And a meaningful one. (as well as a bit of a break from the whole 'gender' thing)
Quote from: Lilis on April 19, 2025, 01:39:31 PMSo, how can we think externally for how someone else feels and think internally? You see what is the problem there?
For me, this has always been the rationale for treating everyone the same way, regardless of gender. Even in therapy you don't get a comprehensive perspective of how every single part of someone's experience contributes to how they think and feel. All you ever see are the major influences and (with luck) can help them understand how they play (or don't play) together.
The snag with normativity is it is embedded in us at such a deep level that even if we can chase it away from interfering with our gender identity, it still has its hooks in other parts of us, like our greeting routines and such. For instance, people who are openly gay become tediously familiar with this, as new friends who are okay with them being gay often overcompensate the warmth of their greetings because they are worried they might otherwise come over as being rejecting!
In me, treating everyone the same evolved because I used to see up to a hundred people a day who I had to form a bond with at short notice, but in the process of identifying and tossing out the scripts involved, I discovered it made it so much easier to get along with people who were normative (and to deal with my own normativity) what grew out of a desire to get the job done became a useful habit. Particularly when I learned to use it when I was dealing with myself :-)
Clarification: I firmly believe the dearth of woman philosophers in no way reflects an intellectual inequality but is, rather, a reflection of cultural components. Historically, women's voice have been systematically excluded from philosophy and from Western religion. If everyone refuses to listen, it makes no matter if you sing the most beautiful song ever sung; no one will hear you. On the other hand, I sense that women, as a gender, are more adept at feeling and expressing emotional truths than do many men. Which is one of the primary reasons I hope that I am a woman. Or, at the very least, more feminine (it's only rational for me to wish this). I've been making many clarifications lately. Unlike rational truths, emotional truths are difficult to confine between punctuation marks. Regardless of one's religion, Easter is a season of hope. Of rebirth. The Phoenix rising from its ashes as much as stones being rolled away from tombs. And a time for reflection. That is my intent; to take time for reflection and obviate the need for so many clarifications.
Quote from: TanyaG on April 20, 2025, 03:20:28 AMFor me, this has always been the rationale for treating everyone the same way, regardless of gender. Even in therapy you don't get a comprehensive perspective of how every single part of someone's experience contributes to how they think and feel. All you ever see are the major influences and (with luck) can help them understand how they play (or don't play) together.
Yes, exactly this. Your tone is measured, and thoughtful. This is what I was trying to say, but I didn't quite know how to put it all together, thank you for articulating it so beautifully, Tanya.
QuoteThe snag with normativity is it is embedded in us at such a deep level that even if we can chase it away from interfering with our gender identity, it still has its hooks in other parts of us, like our greeting routines and such. For instance, people who are openly gay become tediously familiar with this, as new friends who are okay with them being gay often overcompensate the warmth of their greetings because they are worried they might otherwise come over as being rejecting!
I think I'm starting to get what you're saying now. It's kind of wild how those norms are embedded, even when we think we've moved beyond them.
Is your point that norms are sticky in that way?
That even when we believe we've let them go, they still shape how we behave?
QuoteIn me, treating everyone the same evolved because I used to see up to a hundred people a day who I had to form a bond with at short notice, but in the process of identifying and tossing out the scripts involved, I discovered it made it so much easier to get along with people who were normative (and to deal with my own normativity) what grew out of a desire to get the job done became a useful habit. Particularly when I learned to use it when I was dealing with myself :-)
Hahaha, based on what you've shared, I get the feeling you'd make an excellent therapist.
~ Lilis 🫂
Quote from: Lilis on April 20, 2025, 01:45:02 PMIs your point that norms are sticky in that way? That even when we believe we've let them go, they still shape how we behave?
That's been how its been with me and almost everyone I've ever worked with. They affect us so deeply we can end up phrasing things certain ways because of bits of norms left buried where we least expect and although people are often reluctant to believe it, buried norms are powerful mechanisms for triggering dysphoria.
So buried that people sometimes don't realise something is norm triggered dysphoria because it shows up as anger or some other negative emotion or action. Which can end up being directed at yourself if you aren't careful.
Which is really tough when it happens, because unless you 'spot the norm violation' it's inexplicable :-(
Quote from: Lilis on April 20, 2025, 01:45:02 PMHahaha, based on what you've shared, I get the feeling you'd make an excellent therapist.
I'm a doctor not a therapist, but a deep interest in psychology over 40+ years and my own experience of being trans has proven much more useful than anything medicine taught me. The most important therapy lesson I learned was 'be honest with yourself.' Which is harder to do that most of us think, because those pesky norms stop us seeing what honesty really is, if you know what I mean?
Quote from: TanyaG on April 20, 2025, 03:15:24 PMI'm a doctor not a therapist, but a deep interest in psychology over 40+ years and my own experience of being trans has proven much more useful than anything medicine taught me.
QuoteThe most important therapy lesson I learned was 'be honest with yourself.' Which is harder to do that most of us think, because those pesky norms stop us seeing what honesty really is, if you know what I mean?
Awesome! Yes, I understand, thank You, Tanya! 💗
~ Lilis 🫂