Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 07:22:20 AMOr is genderfluid not necessarily binary, that is, not necessarily limited to the common genders of male and female? 

This! In my experience as someone who identifies as genderfluid, the difference is that my gender has never felt binary though for some, it might be.

My own journey has been flowing through different expressions of gender.

Sometimes feminine, sometimes masculine, and sometimes in states that don't sit neatly in either category.

It's like my gender is more like a dance across a spectrum that can include male or female, neither, or something my own (like a combination of both at the same time).

For example it can be male by the time I log out of this chat.

I hope that helps.

I'm not entirely sure about the experience of being bigender, but I believe it often involves feeling male and female, moving between the two.

Hopefully, someone who identifies as bigender can share their perspective too.

~ Lilis 💗

When I think it would be wise to present as male, I can do it.
It does not "feel right" but I do it.

I do not think that is being bigender per se, as this is a conscious decision to "play the male role" in some selected situations.  It is harder to tolerate this though.  For instance, in TSA security lines and when renting a car, I will go the male route as that matches my ID documentation.  I just do not want any hassles, extra scrutiny, etc. if I was being my usual self.

Some may think this is bigender but I do not think so.
.

Chrissy

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 01:25:44 PMSome may think this is bigender but I do not think so.

I'd call it pragmatic :-)

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 08:03:46 PMBeautiful! And a Nietzsche quote I don't recall reading (and once upon a time I considered myself an existentialist). I jumped back in to add to my previous post "Thanks for your kind words, Sephirah. They made me smile."
  Yeah. And those monsters can be so appealing and the abyss so tempting. We made other choices. Sometimes, I even made the right choice. But not always. While we're on the subject, do you have any idea what the heck Hegel was talking about? Personally, I think Phenomenology is more about psychology than philosophy. Serious question, girl. Are we created by what we behold? And do we create the beheld?

Sorry for the tangent. I had not heard of Hegel before now, but I've done a little research and I do kinda sorta agree with his holistic approach to things. To a point. I tend to think of it more as "Reality is perception." I do think that a lot of how we are is shaped by other people around us. I think that's one reason a lot of trans folks don't accept themselves until later in life. I think a lot of our sense of self is shaped by what we behold. But not all of it. And likewise we do that for other people, whether we realise it or not.

It's a bit like... hmm.. the quote from Michaelangelo: "In every block of marble I see a statue... I have only to hew away the rough walls that imprison the lovely apparition to reveal it." That's the question. Is the statue there already or is it created? I kind of think it's a bit of both.

Quote from: Lilis on April 19, 2025, 01:14:20 PMThis! In my experience as someone who identifies as genderfluid, the difference is that my gender has never felt binary though for some, it might be.

My own journey has been flowing through different expressions of gender.

Sometimes feminine, sometimes masculine, and sometimes in states that don't sit neatly in either category.

It's like my gender is more like a dance across a spectrum that can include male or female, neither, or something my own (like a combination of both at the same time).

For example it can be male by the time I log out of this chat.

I hope that helps.

I'm not entirely sure about the experience of being bigender, but I believe it often involves feeling male and female, moving between the two.

Hopefully, someone who identifies as bigender can share their perspective too.

~ Lilis 💗

Do you mind if I ask a question, Lilis? Because this is way out of my scope of knowledge. Do you see a difference between Masculine and Male, and Feminine and Female? Like... if you feel feminine, does that mean you see yourself as female? And vice versa? I'm really curious about this because I always separated them in my head.

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 01:25:44 PMWhen I think it would be wise to present as male, I can do it.
It does not "feel right" but I do it.

I do not think that is being bigender per se, as this is a conscious decision to "play the male role" in some selected situations.

Exactly, and only you would know what your conscious state is.

I'm guessing a woman wearing male clothes at that point, correct me if I am wrong.

QuoteSome may think this is bigender but I do not think so.

But gender as we know it is internal and personal.

So, how can we think externally for how someone else feels and think internally?

You see what is the problem there?

It's like a cisgender male person doing the thinking for you from an external angle.

Does that make sense?


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 01:33:11 PMDo you mind if I ask a question, Lilis? Because this is way out of my scope of knowledge. Do you see a difference between Masculine and Male, and Feminine and Female? Like... if you feel feminine, does that mean you see yourself as female? And vice versa? I'm really curious about this because I always separated them in my head.

Yes, there are periods at times that my gender can feel 100% male or female, but it's not fixed.

Thank you. <3 I can't even begin to imagine what that feels like but this is why it's always good learning from people who do know.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 01:49:51 PMThank you. <3 I can't even begin to imagine what that feels like but this is why it's always good learning from people who do know.

You're welcome. Oh, it's a rocky experience for sure, but I'm managing thanks to therapy, and my spirituality.

~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: Lilis on April 19, 2025, 01:52:56 PMYou're welcome. Oh, it's a rocky experience for sure, but I'm managing thanks to therapy, and my spirituality.

~ Lilis 💗

And being awesome. Don't forget the most important part.

Labels are subjective, for sure.

Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 01:33:11 PMThat's the question. Is the statue there already or is it created? I kind of think it's a bit of both.

I think writing is a bit like that, too. All the stories are already there. And they've all been told a thousand times, yet, each one is unique. My understanding of Nietzsche and Hegel is little more than faint memories of books read long ago. I merely had a brief insight inspired by your 'monsters' quote that it seemed similar to Hegel's dynamic between the observed and the observer. It never occurred to me that existentialism can be organically linked to phenomenology. And there is a good chance it can't be. I haven't had a rigorous philosophical discussion with anyone since graduate school. So, mostly, I was just having fun and reminiscing. You, on the other hand, took my flight of fancy serious enough to acquire a deeper understanding of Hegel than I currently have (and I've taken graduate level seminars on the dude). That amazes me so much, Sephirah. Also, I would like to jump in a little bit on the discussion you are having with Lilis. I'm more like you. I don't feel gender as a spectrum. It's more like looking through a glass darkly. Somedays, I see myself more clearly than other days. But I think I'm seeing the same thing each time I look into the mirror. But I never see my image clearly enough to know, with any degree of confidence, at whom I'm looking. Oddly enough, that seems to tie back into 'monsters' and the dynamic of perception. One of my favorite quotes about Hegel (and I'm paraphrasing badly) is that German students read him in translation on the off chance the translator understands what the heck he's talking about. Thank you.   

Every story has already been told. The only thing that matters is the person doing the telling.

And yeah... girl, your thoughts matter to me. And I learned a lot learning about Hegel and his views.

I still... how you do dialogue in the things you write is an actual marvel to me. That's a life lived. It's a kind of poetry.

I see you, Annika. For whatever that's worth. Even when you don't. *hugs*

Quote from: Sephirah on April 19, 2025, 05:01:01 PMI see you, Annika. For whatever that's worth. Even when you don't. *hugs*

And it is good to be seen, Sephirah. I never did like Nietzsche much. The whole 'Thus Spoke Zarathustra' and 'will to power' thing. But I understood him. Camus, Sartre, Kirkegaard said many of the same things, but they said them 'slant'. Brutal honesty can be a bit off-putting. Plato (Socrates by projection) is my favorite (and he wrote engaging dialog). If you have a 'favorite' philosopher, I would love to meet him (or her--though female philosophers are vanishingly rare (Arendt is awesome and de Beauvoir is a bit in the existentialist camp)). If you have the inclination, pick one (gender regardless). I think it would be a lively conversation. And a meaningful one. (as well as a bit of a break from the whole 'gender' thing) 

Quote from: Lilis on April 19, 2025, 01:39:31 PMSo, how can we think externally for how someone else feels and think internally? You see what is the problem there?

For me, this has always been the rationale for treating everyone the same way, regardless of gender. Even in therapy you don't get a comprehensive perspective of how every single part of someone's experience contributes to how they think and feel. All you ever see are the major influences and (with luck) can help them understand how they play (or don't play) together.

The snag with normativity is it is embedded in us at such a deep level that even if we can chase it away from interfering with our gender identity, it still has its hooks in other parts of us, like our greeting routines and such. For instance, people who are openly gay become tediously familiar with this, as new friends who are okay with them being gay often overcompensate the warmth of their greetings because they are worried they might otherwise come over as being rejecting!

In me, treating everyone the same evolved because I used to see up to a hundred people a day who I had to form a bond with at short notice, but in the process of identifying and tossing out the scripts involved, I discovered it made it so much easier to get along with people who were normative (and to deal with my own normativity) what grew out of a desire to get the job done became a useful habit. Particularly when I learned to use it when I was dealing with myself :-)

Clarification: I firmly believe the dearth of woman philosophers in no way reflects an intellectual inequality but is, rather, a reflection of cultural components. Historically, women's voice have been systematically excluded from philosophy and from Western religion. If everyone refuses to listen, it makes no matter if you sing the most beautiful song ever sung; no one will hear you. On the other hand, I sense that women, as a gender, are more adept at feeling and expressing emotional truths than do many men. Which is one of the primary reasons I hope that I am a woman. Or, at the very least, more feminine (it's only rational for me to wish this). I've been making many clarifications lately. Unlike rational truths, emotional truths are difficult to confine between punctuation marks. Regardless of one's religion, Easter is a season of hope. Of rebirth. The Phoenix rising from its ashes as much as stones being rolled away from tombs. And a time for reflection. That is my intent; to take time for reflection and obviate the need for so many clarifications. 

Quote from: TanyaG on April 20, 2025, 03:20:28 AMFor me, this has always been the rationale for treating everyone the same way, regardless of gender. Even in therapy you don't get a comprehensive perspective of how every single part of someone's experience contributes to how they think and feel. All you ever see are the major influences and (with luck) can help them understand how they play (or don't play) together.

Yes, exactly this. Your tone is measured, and thoughtful. This is what I was trying to say, but I didn't quite know how to put it all together, thank you for articulating it so beautifully, Tanya.

QuoteThe snag with normativity is it is embedded in us at such a deep level that even if we can chase it away from interfering with our gender identity, it still has its hooks in other parts of us, like our greeting routines and such. For instance, people who are openly gay become tediously familiar with this, as new friends who are okay with them being gay often overcompensate the warmth of their greetings because they are worried they might otherwise come over as being rejecting!

I think I'm starting to get what you're saying now. It's kind of wild how those norms are embedded, even when we think we've moved beyond them.

Is your point that norms are sticky in that way?

That even when we believe we've let them go, they still shape how we behave?

QuoteIn me, treating everyone the same evolved because I used to see up to a hundred people a day who I had to form a bond with at short notice, but in the process of identifying and tossing out the scripts involved, I discovered it made it so much easier to get along with people who were normative (and to deal with my own normativity) what grew out of a desire to get the job done became a useful habit. Particularly when I learned to use it when I was dealing with myself :-)

Hahaha, based on what you've shared, I get the feeling you'd make an excellent therapist.


~ Lilis 🫂

Quote from: Lilis on April 20, 2025, 01:45:02 PMIs your point that norms are sticky in that way? That even when we believe we've let them go, they still shape how we behave?

That's been how its been with me and almost everyone I've ever worked with. They affect us so deeply we can end up phrasing things certain ways because of bits of norms left buried where we least expect and although people are often reluctant to believe it, buried norms are powerful mechanisms for triggering dysphoria.

So buried that people sometimes don't realise something is norm triggered dysphoria because it shows up as anger or some other negative emotion or action. Which can end up being directed at yourself if you aren't careful.

Which is really tough when it happens, because unless you 'spot the norm violation' it's inexplicable :-(

Quote from: Lilis on April 20, 2025, 01:45:02 PMHahaha, based on what you've shared, I get the feeling you'd make an excellent therapist.

I'm a doctor not a therapist, but a deep interest in psychology over 40+ years and my own experience of being trans has proven much more useful than anything medicine taught me. The most important therapy lesson I learned was 'be honest with yourself.' Which is harder to do that most of us think, because those pesky norms stop us seeing what honesty really is, if you know what I mean?

Quote from: TanyaG on April 20, 2025, 03:15:24 PMI'm a doctor not a therapist, but a deep interest in psychology over 40+ years and my own experience of being trans has proven much more useful than anything medicine taught me.

QuoteThe most important therapy lesson I learned was 'be honest with yourself.' Which is harder to do that most of us think, because those pesky norms stop us seeing what honesty really is, if you know what I mean?

Awesome! Yes, I understand, thank You, Tanya! 💗


~ Lilis 🫂

Mea culpa.
As I mentioned when I first entered Susan's Place, this is the first website I've ever 'joined'. Once I found my footing, my frame of reference varied between 'family reunion' and '12-step meeting' (and I have considerable experience participating in both venues). It's not. During the course of learning some of the norms, mores, and values of this whole new world I made many egregious errors in judgment. I'm learning. My error rate seems to be diminishing. I was thinking about this today. How could I accept responsibility and make amends (another remnant of my 12-step days). I realized I can't. This space is far too fluid for such reflection and, as I was advised when attempting to make amends in the other venues listed above, don't even try if you'll just make things worse (when you're in a hole...). So, I wrote a poem. And no one writes a poem without feeling compelled to share it with those they care about:

Acceptance of the limitations of Cyberspace

More fragile than the skeleton of a dream
Turning to dust with dawn's first light,
Or a baby's breath, the long sigh into silence
As she falls asleep.
The reaching out for another's hand
As though it could be touched through
The ethereal abyss between keystrokes.
Clattering clicks separated by eternities
Assuring me that being alone is more natural
Than anything conceived in such a dream.
--Annika 

I embrace the limitations of this space and, now that I have learned a few rules of the road, will respect them. Not to get too mushy, but I love all of you. You allowed me to become who I am. And I'm still becoming.