So, there is this arguement going arround the Trans. community by some that MTF's who have not had surgery should not use the Womens restroom.
The basis for this arguement is that they have a penis.
I'm done with this.
Guys, (and I do mean men)
What do you think?
Should you not be able to use the mens restroom because you don't have a penis?
I'm currious.
Really.
Is there a debate here?
What do you think?
Please comment.
I just love how Trans Guys are ignored in this commentary.
I want to hear some Guys opinions on this.
These people need to #%$# $%@$%$% as far as I am concerned
If bio-men can sit down when they urinate, no one should be able to tell me that I can't do the same in the men's room.
I can't really put it better than that.
The same applies to the women's room. Bio-women sit down on toilets. Women who are also transsexual, pre-op, non-op, or otherwise, should be allowed the same right.
I agree, why should we care whats between (or not) someones legs?! >:(
I was told by the dean to use men's or family rooms on campus, but that isn't always available. I can count on one hand the number of family rooms on this campus, and none of them are in buildings I have class.
I pass, I use women's rooms if I have to, but try not to. I'm in there for one of three reasons, to fix my attire, to do biological business, or to check/fix my makeup. I have no desire to peep, and don't see why people would be worried about me doing so. If I were forced to use men's rooms it would out me and destroy any chances I have at having a normal life in this town.
The claim of men taking advantage of the ability to use women's rooms kinda is doubtful. I sincerely doubt, that with all the negativity around cross dressing or transsexuals, that a man would claim trans status to peep. Women could potentially be accused of this as well, but doubtful.
This topic has been discussed here before:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22343.0.html
I don't think anyone has a problem with transsexual women (pre-op, post-op,
non-op) using the women's lounge, but of course there are always those who will not share the same views.
tink :icon_chick:
I'd scare the crap out of any woman in there if I tried to use the women's room. Plus if they asked me for ID, I'd get busted for being in the wrong washroom. The plumbing shouldn't matter. If you're a guy, you use the men's room and if you're a woman, use the women's room.
Dennis
The argument was about T's in the broader sense using the women's room,
not transexuals.
IF a barely passable CD uses the women's room, is that a right?
This may be rare, or even it may never happen, but its used
as a bogeyman by the right because lets face it, most women
don't want that! Do you own "exit poll" at the door of a
mall restroom if you want your own data...
In this case, the solution may be an
unisex restrooms with direct corridor access
and a door that locks is the answer.
Many restaurants have those now instead of two seperate rooms
with flimsier stalls.
I have only seen 'bathrooms' as an argument when the larger argument is, as Keira says, about the Larger T community and a demand that bathrooms should be open to all.
I think the difficulty here is lack of a historical context in where the argument comes from and how it's developed. The argument is not about bathrooms; it's about an agenda.
N~
No,
It is about bathrooms.
ADDED:
And yes CD's should!
IT ISNT JUST WOMEN!
CD's are FTM as well.
What is the difference?
Posted on: January 20, 2008, 04:29:49 PM
By the way.
Passing is not a valid argument.
There are people here on this forum who have had surgery and do not pass.
Posted on: January 20, 2008, 04:34:27 PM
The only people I ever see objecting are MTF's who have completed surgery.
Sometime ago I went to a play. When intermission came I headed to the ladies and found a line running out the door. I decided to duck into the mens which was empty when I got there. As I was finnishing a group of men poured in the door. They were looking at me like 'why is this woman in here?' That was the last time I used a public mens room.
90% of CD's identify as men, Sarah. For most, its
not something immutable in their genes.
If your a man and barely look like a women,
don't you think asking to be treated as a
women is a bit much
Anyway, this is headed for a heated argument
again and I don't feel like it. Argue this
points amongst yourself, I'm tired
of being called a bigot for a
thinking I feel is quite sound.
Quote from: Keira on January 20, 2008, 05:53:03 PM
90% of CD's identify as men, Sarah. For most, its
not something immutable in their genes.
If your a man and barely look like a women,
don't you think asking to be treated as a
women is a bit much
Anyway, this is headed for a heated argument
again and I don't feel like it. Argue this
points amongst yourself, I'm tired
of being called a bigot for a
thinking I feel is quite sound.
Cool.
If they identify as a man, then no.
Ok?
If they don't though, then yes I think they should
Men with (meows) should be allowed in the men's except when it comes to unpassable men such as myself. In fact, I bet there's no amount of T and surgeries that will make me look like a normal man. Too femmy.
I've only ever gone in the men's with male buddies who I knew had my back. I know some unpassable or somewhat passable men regularly use the men's (and they have every right, not saying they don't), but they obviously aren't much for self-preservation.
Why should I put myself in harm's way just to prove a point? Just to prove I'm a man?
But you would agree they have the right?
Here's the law I'd make
A transgender MUST be fully evualated by a therapist to ensure their really what they say they are.
Then they MUST be on hormones and AA's till their sex drive diminishes to low levels and their physical strenght shouldn't be too strong(not that women aren't strong).
Now if they want to use the women's bathroom they must dress in women's clothing not male clothing.
CD's shouldn't be allowed.
Sex drive?
Sexual preference has nothing to do with gender identity.
And tested?
Why not just if they are full time?
And regarding those who can't go full time yet but are transitioning how would you know?
Actually that is what the whole problem of this comes down to:
How is someone going to know?
And how is someone going to be able to tell the difference between a CD and a Transgender Girl who doesn't pass well?
Are we going to have a panty check at the door?
I agree, Ethically speacking I would like someone who's gender identity is male to not use the female restroom.
But that is where I draw the line. Gender Identity.
And I am certainly not going to stop and ask someone for their papers.
Sara
Quote from: Sarah on January 20, 2008, 06:48:28 PM
But you would agree they have the right?
Oh yes, of course. Just don't think it's very smart for an unpassable man. Unpassable women shouldn't set foot in the men's either for pretty much the same reasons.
As long as we can agree that people should have the right to.
I agree, if someone doesn't pass well, they step in at their own risk.
People might say somthing.
But I do think they should be able to if they want.
I use a unisex bathroom all the time with all people in it. People go in, do whatever, leave. No big deal.
I see obvious drop-dead girls go into the men's room all the time at bars, clubs, and concerts (seems like the little girls room line gets huge). I've never seen a problem.
There is no way to tell between a CD and a TS, save post op, and only then by a pretty humiliating public experience. And even then, the right wing could still pass 'woman born woman' language. So that's not even an option.
Since GID is pretty much self-diagnosed to begin with, and since people with money can doctor shop, they can buy whatever papers they want. So that's not an option either. Like "medical marijuana' which when it was passed meant people in chemo or with Glaucoma, but in reality, its down to $35 bucks and telling the Doc "I'm stressed" (and who is not).
WHAT SHOULD IT MATTER?!?!?!?!?!?! You know, long before I even thought of transitioning, I'd use the women's restroom and have women give me funny looks... I even once had two women refuse to use the restroom until I left, because they thought I was a guy. I had breasts. I had long hair. I dressed "feminine" enough. It didn't matter. People are so frickin' ridiculous when it comes to things that should be so simple!!!
So, if a man uses the women's restroom, what, is he automatically a rapist? Is he going to harrass every woman in that room, look up their skirts, fondle them, simply by virtue of his chromosomes? I've been in a million and a half restrooms, having a bladder the size of a pea, and you know what? When people use the bathroom, it's simply to defecate or urinate! If anyone has ulterior motives, then perhaps they should be the ones who must be relegated to the single locking stalls.
People in general need to get a grip. Men are just as likely to be raped in the men's room as women are in the men's room as women are in the women's room, etcetera, etcetera. There are, unfortunately, a lot of sick people out there, but for god's sakes, they're not the majority! People should have the right to do what they want to do, if they're not hurting themselves or others. That's my opinion.
And for the record, I use the men's room generally, but if there's a line or there's someone in the stall, as I am not in possession of a penis and thus cannot use urinals, I will go in the women's room. I usually just laugh if I get a funny look.
Sebastien Dean
Men are just as likely to be raped in the men's room as women are in the men's room as women are in the women's room
I doubt that, either way. Rape happens in private, not public spaces as a rule.
Quote from: Tanya1 on January 20, 2008, 06:50:43 PM
Here's the law I'd make
A transgender MUST be fully evualated by a therapist to ensure their really what they say they are.
Then they MUST be on hormones and AA's till their sex drive diminishes to low levels and their physical strenght shouldn't be too strong(not that women aren't strong).
Now if they want to use the women's bathroom they must dress in women's clothing not male clothing.
CD's shouldn't be allowed.
What in the hell does sex drive and physical strength have to do with anything here.
I haven't been in the womens' room since I was a little kid and my mom was still protecting me. I had one....very awkward conversation with a drunken guy at a urinal in the mens' bathroom at a bar, and I've chased a lot of men out of public bathrooms by my reflection or my hair. Actually just this past week a guy asked me face to face at school if he was in the wrong bathroom as I was leaving.
If I get any more female I'll probably just avoid public restrooms til I'm fulltime, if I go that route.
The comment that CD's can't be distinguished from a TS is only true
if that TS is not on hormones... And most TS not on hormones
avoid the public restrooms, and so did I. I only went in 4 month
in when I was sure I wouldn't traumatized anyone. At 6 foot
I tower over 80's year old women who are often lot
less than 5 foot and even now they do double takes when they see
this tall beanpole entering the restroom.
As for CD VS TS on hormones, no contest in 95% of the case,
easily distinguishable. At a large party (at a cottage)
we had both (half and half)
and it was very clear who was which (and the CD's were
not amateurs). There are super CD's out there, but
they are few in the CD crowd and we're not talking about them
here since in their case in wouldn't matter since nobody
could ever know.
A CD going into a mall female restroom is doing so to proove a point
if you ask. I never did it in the years I cross dressed
when even if I was so androgyne that people didn't know if I was male
or female dressed in jeans and a T-shirt.
CD's can't be distinguished from a TS is only true if that TS is not on hormones - not a universal truth
most TS not on hormones avoid the public restrooms - got proof, or is this just molding the rest of the world on your experience?
I never did it in the years I cross dressed - again, this is not universal, but its your (and only your) experience. I have since I was 16, more years than I care to remember, or state, but Nixon was President.
All I am saying, is that before you write laws that have serious consequences for everyone, it might help to take into account something other than your feelings and limited (and no slight, all of our experiences are limited) experiences, and look at the totality of the impact, and act as if the law might effect more than just you and that a law that has implications for all might depend on more (or at the very least, be based on more) than just your feelings.
You, and I, are a minority of ONE, in nations of millions. Unless you are Terri Schiavo no one is going to write a law just for you. Not that it did her any good anyway.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying THE IMPACT ON EVERYBODY
including THE WOMEN IN THE RESTROOM.
It seems what they want is NEVER taken into account
At least, I don't say 100% Tesla, I always underplay my assertions.
I give concrete examples of my experience.
The no one can tell a CD from a women or a TS on hormones
is something I vehementally disagree with in almost all case. And I also don't agree on someone
who looks clearly male and identifies as male going into
the restroom; because then, as I said, what's the point
of putting FEMALE on the door!!
For the others, androgyne and the like, they don't ID as male or female
(even if they may be placed in either by the population), well
why would they even want to go into either one. The unisex
bathroom, but not a allee McBeal type, is what's needed.
Quote from: tekla on January 20, 2008, 07:14:57 PM
Since GID is pretty much self-diagnosed to begin with, and since people with money can doctor shop, they can buy whatever papers they want. So that's not an option either. Like "medical marijuana' which when it was passed meant people in chemo or with Glaucoma, but in reality, its down to $35 bucks and telling the Doc "I'm stressed" (and who is not).
What doctor is that again??? :icon_ciggy: :D
Oh yeah I forgot. Short term memory is shot ;) Umm bathrooms yeah use whatever you feel comfortable. As long as you don't assault someone verbally or otherwise. And if people dislike it they can get over it. Or just get rid of segregated bathrooms.
Audrey
What the GID doc, or the medical mary jane doctor. Either way, in SF neither is hard to find.
By the way I just want to comment that I would disagree that someone who doesn't pass isn't on HRT.
A large part of passing (for MTF's) is dependant upon facial hair removal.
Some people are on HRT but have not had facial hair removal.
I have a feeling that this is probably one of the biggest factors of discomfort that Keira is talking about: the having to deal with a Girl who has facial hair.
Unfortunately I think that that is unavoidable.
Many people who are full time have not had all facial hair removed or have gotten far enough into HRT to "Pass". But that is also another thing: Not everyone is concerned with "passing" and/or stealth. Especially people who are 'out'.
I would be one such person. I am full time, but not done with procedures yet. However I am not getting them for the sake of "passing" I am getting them for my own personal enjoyment as well as the fact that some aspects have never felt "right". facial hair is anoying, uncomfortable, and ugly as far as I am concerned so I will have it removed.
That doesn't mean I don't look like a girl with facial hair signs in the afternoon.
I have no intention of not using the restroom though. I am a girl. why should I? (use the other one?) I have some unfortunate facial difficulties I was born with. I will be dealing with that, but in the mean time I am not going to use the wrong restroom for me just because I get face issues.
I have boobs. Why would I use the other restroom?
I dont want to get mugged.
Sara
TeSLa was a genius, still not fully understood. TeKLa is a blue collar idiot who just did very well at school, more for the papers, but my tests were pretty good too.
Funny how a letter here or there changes Public Relations to Pubic Relations. But hey, spelling is for dummies (Spell checkers are not) however, as how much difference can there be between the two. Not much. Of course, idiot that I am, I've seen far too many heavy metal press releases written by some PR flack who has Celine Dion on their home stereo, and only a moron pays attention to things like sales and box office when the release is so well written. (if misspelled)
And I think that the Ally McBeal bathroom is just about perfect. People need to get over themselves a bit. But I bet if I put it to a vote here in GW Bush's Amerika, that "woman born women" and 'men born men' would win. Not that guys care.
Didn't mispell it on purpose.
Just noticed it now.
Anyway, sorry I offended you.
BTW, my name is mispelled Kiera on a daily basis here.
Doesn't change anything else I said, does it.
Since I think I'm pretty coherent and keep mispelling to a minimum usually,
I won't go beyond "its a typo" and fall to my knees in shame.
And, I do know about Tesla, got 2 y in physics and 6 in various engineering, so hey!
As for your utter contempt of democracy, even at a local level, hey, you can
create your own anarchist's wonderland anywhere you want if you can
find enough anarchists too follow you (sic).
Even in San-Francisco, which is not Bush's america, a majority of women
would be of opinion of not letting cross dressers who identify as male
enter female restrooms.
If you want to dismiss them too, well let your inner dictator be your guide ;)
and do whatever you want till someone complains.
Cant use the ladies restroom. women would scream :laugh:. one time I went to court for a parking ticket & this little old lady called the security guard on me b/c I was in her restroom :laugh: I wasnt on T yet but I was wearring mens clothes & my hair was very short like its now. Phallo's a expensive surgery. many trans men cant afford it. If people want trans men to have dicks to use the mens room, tough! that aint happenin so they gotta get over it. Same thing w/trans women. if ur a girl, use the ladies restroom. it doesnt matter what u got down there. a penis doesnt make anybody a man.
No problem, if I was to pick someone to be, it would be Tesla. He however, well, sometimes very smart people have, well, shall we say, unique problems and are not easy to humor.
Still, how EXACTLY, in very exact terms, that would not have ever limited you, write that phrase of the law?
I underline that, because I'm not about to limit others for things you have received. That would seem, well, unfair.
I'm not debating TS's right to use the restroom Chris, just male CDER's.
The whole issue of T's and TS's gets conflated and we can't even
agree here. Just imagine how it plays in whoever's america, or some other
continent.
As I said, even in liberal San-Francisco, if you ask women to let
a male identified CDer in their restroom, they'll ask why on earth?
That doesn't mean they're not ready to pass a law supporting
unisex restrooms and even subsidize conversion. Because
it can also be sold as a family room (which helps them, not
just others).
The alley McBeal Unisex is not seen as secure
by most women (that's why it was played up for laugh
so much in that show).
The unisex most prefered are the small room ones with corridor
access. Many restaurants have those now. In fact, its more practical
for them since it in fact uses less space since they're less loss space
for corridor inside the restrooms and they can eliminate one.
Add, 'sexist' to the list.
And it plays out fine here. Most people are really to busy to care. That's pretty much what the law has proved.
They are called Men's and Women's bathrooms... not male or female. I've never seen a bathroom door have the words MALE and FEMALE on them. So it doesn't matter what is between your legs. If you were required to go into certain restrooms based on whether you've got a penis or not... there will be bio guys who would have to go into the women's restroom, and nobody would force that on them.
Yeah, it isn't smart to go in if you can't pass... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't.
As for wearing certain clothes, if you had to go depending on that... then there would be lots of women going into the men's room.
Quote from: Keira on January 21, 2008, 01:32:15 AM
I'm not debating TS's right to use the restroom Chris, just male CDER's.
I didnt say u were Keira. but who's to judge who is supposed to use the mens room or the ladies room. we just wanna do our business in the restroom & get it over with.
I said, male or female, I meant men or women, Oh god,
people just latch on to nits and bypass everything else.
But again Chris, why is the opinion of the other women
or men, always dismissed, or they're called bigots or told to live with it.
That's what gets my goat, total disregard for the other person's position.
In negotiation, its never good to dimiss the person you have
to work with.
The best solution is the unisex restroom and many women
will actually be ready to approve this. Just saying
"get over it" or "live with it" is not a good way to
get them to vote for a measure. If you can get
them on board by either educating them, or
telling them how it can help them, well you'll
get your wish without polemic.
Although, I do admit many in the T community seem to love
polemic, so maybe that would be cramping their style ;D
Someone who thinks that words, and language is 'nits' and who wants a job in public relations is like a musician who does not care if its F sharp or B minor. They might be musicians, but they don't make the band.
Quote from: tekla on January 20, 2008, 08:48:15 PM
Men are just as likely to be raped in the men's room as women are in the men's room as women are in the women's room
I doubt that, either way. Rape happens in private, not public spaces as a rule.
Read the sentence, Tekla, 0=0=0. Doesn't mean any of those values is 1. I don't get why this is so hard. If you're MtF, go to the women's room. Don't stand up to pee even if you find the toilet seat squicky and have the equipment to avoid it. If you're a CD'er, and in a gay bar, then do whatever the social norms are there, but please don't pee on the seat.
And if you're in the men's room, please don't pee on the seat. Some of us sit down.
And the major rule. Watch out for your own personal safety. Be aware of how you come across. If you come across as the wrong gender for the bathroom, you're going to get flak. Make sure you can handle it.
For my own in between stage, I went out of my way to go to gas stations, ask for the key, and use whichever bathroom they gave me the key to. Or, I'd go to places where I knew they had a gender neutral bathroom. It was a safety thing for me.
Dennis
Quote from: tekla on January 21, 2008, 02:11:45 AM
Someone who thinks that words, and language is 'nits' and who wants a job in public relations is like a musician who does not care if its F sharp or B minor. They might be musicians, but they don't make the band.
lmao :laugh: ;)
Tekla, better talk to yourself because that's all you'll from me from now on.
Your personal attack on my employability is plain vile.
Alright, C'mon,
you guys are getting personal here...
M' LOVE! Not War!
lol ^-^
Sara
its the age old thing, women in the mens room is not a threat... presense of a penis in the ladies room sparks penis fear....
its ironic that society sees transwomen as rapists and perverts wanting to spy on women changing or peeing... especially considering they dont bat an eyelid about lesbians, who are more likely a threat comparatively. whos more of a pervert in the changing rooms? the lesbian checking out the women around her, or the straight transwoman who doenst care about women? *shrugs*
last time i used the ladies, nobody checked my knickers. and nobody asked for ID.... i went into a stall, did my business, washed up and left.... like the countless other women that day... i was probably the only one with a penis... but id challenge them to pin that on anyone...
R :police:
It is not personal, it's professional, and if you can not separate out the personal, you can't be a professional.
To wit:
Funny me. I want an engineer who can do solid math. An accountant who finds it more flexible ("How much is 2+2?" "How much do you want it to be?"). And a doctor who knows medicine.
I'm real picky about knots. Which, in most things, is not a big deal. But when you're hauling up $14K in a lighting unit, with a union brother or sister (or worse, a star) underneath, its a BIG, BIG deal. I do not want something like a bowline, or almost a bowline. I want a bowline.
Now, in PR (full disclosure here... I write speeches and make PowerPoints for people - big time corporate executives - in my down time, as a part of my income stream. It does not make me as much as my other work, but I'm sure it makes me as much as some people on these boards make in a year. So its not a simple matter. Nor do I take it as such, but I do know PR. And, I do try to remain mindful that people are buying me a lunch that costs more than a lot of people make in a day, and I try to live, and work, up to that standard.), as in academia, your work is judged by the printed words on the printed page.
I'm sure I'm not the only person who finds that misspelled words leap off the page at me. Or that sloppy use of language (especially in law, which, in the end, is all about words and definitions) is somewhat bothersome. When I play with the people I jam with, I might miss and hit the E and not the E minor. No big deal. If we were playing for 2K people who paid $45 bucks to see us. It is a big deal.
So words in PR, like knots to me in stagecraft, are very real, and tangible. I want a bowline because the more weight it takes, the tighter it holds in a very few twists of the rope. Simple, to the point, effective. Just like language. Precision in language is all you have in PR.
It's not a slam dear. It's a plea to use your best, in everything, all the time, and everywhere. If your job is to be precise in language, then do it every-time, all the time. My friends have me come over to do their home stereos. Not just because I have a drill that will go through several walls, but because I show up with cable ties, clippers, extra wire, and when I'm done, its done the same way I would do a stage - not one wire showing. Its not that I'm such a picky bitch, (I am) but that's just the way I do it, all the time, every-time.
And I will tell you why (something I almost never do, but in this case....). Once upon a time, the person who taught me so much of this told me (and this is an exact quote, because it matters so much to me - and because he gave this same lecture to everyone he worked with, which is half my crew - who, repeat it like a mantra.)
Kat, we do this every night the same way. We do it the same way every night. That way, no matter how messed up you are, you will do it in just that way. Every night. No matter what night, we do it the same way. That way, it's always the same.
So much for originality, but hey, the bowline wasn't original either. And the point was for the band to be original, not us. And we were precise. As an engineer you can dig on that. The mike for the lead singer/lead guitar player was to be 7 feet, 3 and 1/4 inches from the tip of the mike to the center of the amp. Did that 1/4 an inch matter? Sonically no. But as long as it was always 7' 3 1/4", then it was never ALMOST seven feet, or CLOSE TO seven feet, or A BIT MORE THAN seven feet. It was 7' 3 1/4" - no more, no less. Exact. Precise. Perfect.
It's about doing the best all the time, every time. Do we make it? Do I? Hell no. But at least I do try. I try hard not to write my posts in PhD language, thick impenetrable sentences that take a week to get through and even then your not really sure about what was said. I pride myself on being pretty easy to understand. When I say "Hillary Clinton is part of a criminal conspiracy." That's pretty hard to parse in any way other than I think she is a criminal who should be in jail. I may, or may not be right about that, (and I am) but what I say is pretty clear. Given my background, that is no easy task. But I do work on it.
So should you.
QuoteI may, or may not be right about that, (and I am)
10/10 for selfconfidence ;)
seriously, lovely story, but relevance is where?
and what the hell does this topic have to do with clinton?
R :police:
Its professional... That's your point... Just incredibly specious... ???
I was responsible for $20M in devellopment budget as senior architect,
dealt with the board and outside investors. of a $200M startup company
close to San-Jose and got diploma's up the wazoo.
And so what!!!
It has nothing to do with my posts. This is not my job.
Do you think I should evaluate your PR job from your posts.
Hopefully not, cause I wouldn't be generous.
But, I would also be very unfair, because its not your job.
Quote from: Rachael on January 21, 2008, 03:13:42 AM
last time i used the ladies, nobody checked my knickers. and nobody asked for ID.... i went into a stall, did my business, washed up and left.... like the countless other women that day... i was probably the only one with a penis... but id challenge them to pin that on anyone...
R :police:
Ditto! and that's how it been for me for quite a few years now..
Oh Renate, you make me laugh with your funny and out of the box way of thinking. That is a good idea about the bathroom key thing too. I like the fact that you don't take yourself too seriously, something which a lot of people take for granted.
Audrey
Quote from: Audrey on January 21, 2008, 12:26:23 AM
Quote from: tekla on January 20, 2008, 07:14:57 PM
Since GID is pretty much self-diagnosed to begin with, and since people with money can doctor shop, they can buy whatever papers they want. So that's not an option either. Like "medical marijuana' which when it was passed meant people in chemo or with Glaucoma, but in reality, its down to $35 bucks and telling the Doc "I'm stressed" (and who is not).
What doctor is that again??? :icon_ciggy: :D
Oh yeah I forgot. Short term memory is shot ;) Umm bathrooms yeah use whatever you feel comfortable. As long as you don't assault someone verbally or otherwise. And if people dislike it they can get over it. Or just get rid of segregated bathrooms.
Audrey
Welcoem to Canada, eh! :icon_ciggy: (yes, you can get a doctors not for medical marijuana here). I should state, however, that is is highly regulated (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/dhp-mps/marihuana/index_e.html), and it's much easier to get it form a dealer than a doctor.
But yeah, after reading this mess, medical marijuana might help me forget about it. LOL
--natalie :D
Not to mention apparently our government can't even do marijuana well. I hear the quality sucks.
Dennis
i personally prefer men in the mens room, women in the womens room.... its worked for centuries, and i still dont want guys around when im peeing, talking about them, or fixing my makeup etc...
guys does include CDs....
society will not have a problem with transsexual women in the womens room, or transmen in the mens room once they get transseuxality.... thats one thing we need to push, and 99% of the issues surrounding it will collapse...
dont treat the symptoms, treat the disease...
R :police:
How exactly and precisely do you write that law then? Any post-SRS law would have you in the men's room Rachael.
This is really funny. The "RESTROOM". When will people quit? How about the shower room? Where you might actually see something. Guys, who are CD and all of the other letters of the alphabet should be able to use the men's restroom. Most restrooms have stalls that do lock. Gee, amazing gadget the lock. Now, if you see a foot under the partician, cause the guy in the other stall has a wide stance, be very careful. Don't ever pick up paper that the guy has dropped.
Sheila
I use the women's restroom but always use the handicapped stall, because I have a mental disorder ::)
In fact, lots of the nightclubs in SF have taken all the doors off the stalls at the request of the police. Something to do with drug use.
Quote from: tekla on January 22, 2008, 02:26:39 PM
In fact, lots of the nightclubs in SF have taken all the doors off the stalls at the request of the police. Something to do with drug use.
I ran across one of those at a rest stop on the way back from California. I thought it was because of guys having sex in the stalls. I guess either reason would seem enough. It was a bit bloody awkward though. I was desperately hoping nobody came in while I was in there.
Dennis
Quote from: tekla on January 22, 2008, 12:26:54 PM
How exactly and precisely do you write that law then? Any post-SRS law would have you in the men's room Rachael.
who said post srs?
and i woudldnt, unless they checked my underwear ;) never once had a problem in the loos
R >:D
Rachael, I'm just looking for some language that would meet some sort of testable legal standard. One of the proposals, as I read it, would exclude you. I don't think anyone ought be excluded, but its a very fine line to draw, very fine. I would hope that it would not be based simply on passing, that would excluded several post-ops I know. I was in a position to wrestle with it a few years ago and as close as we could get was 'presentation' which includes CDs, which I take it you don't like. Where do you draw that fine line?
Dennis: I thought it was because of guys having sex in the stalls. Those darn U.S. Senators, Larry Craig must really get around. But I was thinking of women's rooms with the doors off. They came off in men's rooms in a lot of the clubs more than a decade or so ago. But taking the women's doors off is in the last five years or so.
and like i said, no law would prohibit me, because no law would enforce mandatory poon examinations before entry.
official letter saying your TS is fairly good proof....
or a F on your licence, which is atainable if Transsexual, not if CD
R >:D
Quote from: tekla on January 22, 2008, 12:26:54 PM
How exactly and precisely do you write that law then? Any post-SRS law would have you in the men's room Rachael.
Why?
last time I had to balls to go in the Men's restroom was 2002 and I was wearing guys levi denim jeans and jacket.....and I still got thrown out and told I shouldn't in there at all and told I should be in the women's restroom where all the other women should be. By the way I haven't had SRS but I am still percieved as female..
F on your licence, which is atainable if Transsexual, not if CD
All it takes in Cali is a note from a doctor, same as medical MaryJane. Not all that hard to get. In other states, its very hard.
like i said, treat the problem, not the cure, and once society accepts transpeople as thier true gender, this wont be a problem, as they wont see us as perverts or crossdressers using the other sex's restroom for lols...
R >:D