So there god was chillin right...
He had already made his angels, then a few angels tried to overthrow him right, he banished them including lucifer right.
Then he was all like well I'm gonna remake that creation but put them on another plane of existence right.
So humans were made right...
Then Humans messed up because the banished angels decieved them, And this pissed God off, but God was all like well it really was the humans fault so now I'm gonna selectively choose whether or not certain ones deserve to come to heaven.
what he ended up doing was the ones that he deemed "not good" enough were being taken in by the fallen angels, and more evil was developing and affecting more and more of the world. He was like enough..
After a while he realized that it was truly his fault because he created us in the first place so he was like OK I'm gonna send a piece of me to thier plane Try my best to teach them about how to live better in life, but Ultimatly I am gonna let them all back into heaven.
So here we are today,
It is of my opinion that EVEN ADOLF HITLER is in heaven, he may have been a muderous tryant here but I believe that God loves all his children above and beyond what they did on earth, and that it only goes to show you once in heaven how amazing of God we have that he even loves his children who are the most sickly ravaged people here on earth....
My basis for this post is alright then why did God send Jesus???
I mean is religion trying to tell me that no one before Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins went to heaven???
That would mean Adam and Eve went to Hell,
What is your basis behind the words "Jesus died for my Sins" What are you trying to say that means, I mean in more than one way that has become Cristains catch phrase.... Do they even know what it really means...??
The placebo effect?
Please don't take offense, I just want to join in on the conversation.....
- Do you believe that your loving God, who can forgive a tyrant like Hitler, would get "pissed off"? ;)
- According to the gospels, Jesus suffered for the sins of humanity in the garden of Gethsemane the night before his crucifixion in prayer. The pain was such that he "bled from every pore". No other mortal man could suffer this pain and thus, Christ was offered up to do so. This is where he "died for our sins". His corporal death came later on the cross. I think that Christians sort of lump the events of those few days all together to call them the "death" of Christ. Hence we get the phrase "died for our sins".
Where does our resident pastor weigh in on this?
Cindi
Do you ever get pissed off?? Do you ever forgive someone?
And Yes he died but WHY???
For our sins OK?? What was accomplished by dieing for our SINS???
Mara,
As I stated above, Christ physically suffered for the sins of humanity in Gethsamane prior to his crucifixion. His death was necessary so that he could be resurrected and thereby providing the path for those to follow.
FWIW, I am not really into religion these days. I know these things from a past life as a person I would not want to be friends with. It might be said that I am much more a follower of Christ's teachings these days though.... hmmm. I'm simply trying to answer a sincere question about doctrine which I happen to know something about from years of study.
Cindi
Quote from: Cindi Jones on February 10, 2008, 03:21:53 PM
As I stated above, Christ physically suffered for the sins of humanity in Gethsamane prior to his crucifixion. His death was necessary so that he could be resurrected and thereby providing the path for those to follow.
That makes NO SENSE???
Regardless of Whether he DIED two day later or not, MY QUESTION IS what was accomplished by IT???\
your answer is so he could be resurected, and provide a path for others to follow???
rather empty answer....
Anyone who pretends to know the answer to "why" is only fooling you. Human cannot even begin to comprehend what motivates god.
As I further agree, I am just looking for anybody who has a more practical view regarding this, rather than just accepting what was taught to them...
I just spoke with my mother who is a devout Christain and Minister/Missionairy, her view is that one must be a believer and accept God into thier heart to go to Heavan.
I call rubbish, I though God loved all his children, love that ultimatley will send someone to hell???
Further more the current theory is based on people having a "choice" of accepting god, further rubbish, there still exists people in the world who are isolated and have never met another than those in thier tribes, do they go to "hell"
I stand by the point that everyone regardless of actions goes to heaven should it exist.
BTW I am not religous, I do not consider myself Christain, I just was forced to go to church for 18 years of my life, and my mother is a Minister...
But it has always appaled me that there are such discrepencies in the bible context of religion that I seek to fill those holes while still preserving the Christain message.. Which ultimatly I feel is a good thing..
ok... ill give it a go..
to get some understanding we first have to look at who god is.... or how god is. on the surface god is the creator of heaven and earth... but what are his quality's.. the bible says that god IS love. that god is holy, just and righteous.
lets start with holy.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holy
1: exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness.
the key is the ''perfect'' part. gods goodness/holiness is prefect.... without blemish, without sin. imagine an expensive white dress shirt.
now take sin(what sin is, is a topic for a different discussion, but in this example we will say sin is spaghetti sauce :D)
it only takes a small drop of sauce on the expensive shirt to ruin it. god can not take sin onto himself without compromising his holiness. even a very small amount. perfect = 100% not 99.99999999999999%
when adam and eve sinned in the garden they lost the ability to be with god. before, they would walk and talk with him in the garden. after, the were kept at a distance. (they were now dripping with spaghetti sauce.) lol
now lets look at justice. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/justice
in order to maintain justice, when a wrong is committed, there needs to be a punishment. gods punishment for ALL sin was/is spiritual/physical death. (we were originally intended to be immortal)
god didnt like that sin had separated us from him.... and he had a plan to do away with sin altogether.
ok... imagine a child is playing baseball in the street and hits a ball through a large picture window of his house. the child has no money to replace the window. maybe his parents make him work off the damage, but in the end it is the parents who will foot the bill because the price is too high for the child.
in the case of sin.. god decided to foot the bill because he knew that the price was too high for us. god had a rule(more like loophole) that said that one's sin could be transferred onto an innocent. this is displayed in the old testament sin offerings. god didnt think any amount of bulls of sheep or birds could equal a man in importance... so all the OT sin offerings were just a kind of credit until the ''final, complete'' sin offering was made. this offering had to be perfect... with out sin or blemish... only jesus christ fulfilled this requirement. he kinda had the upper hand because he was god... so he was able to resist all temptation. he also had to fulfill the jewish law.. he said" i have come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it".
jesus became the sin offering for the whole world... for all time. justice was fulfilled in jesus. through jesus taking our punishment and sins we can now approach god again... not as sinful but as clean... for he sees christ when he looks at us... but, and this is the most important part, only if we accept what christ has done for us. thats the accepting jesus christ as savior... it is a free gift to us (but it cost god a lot) but it must be received.
Posted on: February 10, 2008, 05:54:50 PM
also... if one wants to have their life weighed in the balance then they have the best judge ever when it comes to god... but all of everyones faults were taken care of in christ.. so it is in everyones best interests to accept his gift...
WOW... my weak post wanted to be like that!
exactly my views... well done ashley!
I asked for an answer and i got a sermon, typical of most I guess...
Beth and Ashley, that's some good stuff, thanks!
But I have a much simpler take on things. Why was Jesus sent to die on earth? To show us what a truly radical loving God we have.
Just think about it. Who would want their worst enemy to be the one who saved them? No one! But that's the essence of Christianity. It is not that we loved God, but that God loved us and sent His Son to die in our place, to be the means by which our sins are forgiven. (see 1 John 4:10)
Think of it like this: Suppose a redneck, homophobic, gun-toting Klan member is in an accident. Along comes Rev. Bubba, who pretends to take a call on his cell phone and not notice him. Then came Duke who just thunders by in his monster 4x4, his Confederate flag whipping in the breeze from his pickup's antenna. In his heart, he gives up. But then comes the epitome of what he hates. A black guy comes along. He has effeminate mannerisms, a guy who has done well, a metro-sexual, in a low riding Cadillac, hip hop blaring from the speakers with the Bass audible from 10 miles away. The bling is so bright when he hops out of the car that the redneck has to shield his eyes. Joe Klan can't stand the guy! He can't stand even being touched by this guy! But he is nearly unconscious. The last thing he remembers is seeing the flash of a smile with a gold grille as he is loaded into the car. Later on he wakes up in the hospital. He finds out that he had made it to the hospital just in time to be revived, and that his bill has been paid by the very one he has spent his life hating. It is totally scandalous. He is dumbfounded!
If you understand this story, and the audacity of the black guy saving this white guy, then you perhaps get a glimpse of the parable Jesus tells in Luke 10:30-37, often called the Good Samaritan. The point is that the one we totally hated loved us anyway. And still does. He became one of us and stepped into our totally screwed up world. He gave his life to prove it. He paid our bill. Some things don't change. Most of the world still hates him. But it won't change his love and commitment to us. Yes, his love is that radical.
And being a Christian is just that: Pass it on.
Peace,
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Mara,
i also have difficulty dealing with alot of things biblical.
however, some very sweet people on this site are rather devout, and i feel just awful saying things that make them feel badly.
i am not religious, but i care deeply about other people's feelings. i have hurt people's feelings in the past, and i sincerely regret having done so. not because i have failed in a religious way, but because that just isn't the kind of person i want to be.
i think you may have offended Cindi, Beth06, Kristi, and Ashley Michelle, and, i dunno, it might be well if you apologized.
also, fyi, it's not exactly kosher to rebel against Christianity on the Spirituality boards. (try the Philosophy section!!)
Kind Regards, & i hope i haven't lectured ya
-ellie
I'm certainly not offended.
You just have no idea how much ink has been spilled over past centuries trying to explain just this question. So just don't expect quick answers. And of course you don't have to agree. No problem there, just be aware of the complexity of the question. I answered you with a parable. That's the same way Jesus answered it, by the way.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: Kristi on February 10, 2008, 09:03:47 PM
I'm certainly not offended.
ok, scratch Kristi from that list.
(no really, Mara,
if i had said anything like that they'd have been all over me like white on rice, and would have sent me back to my little corner)
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on February 10, 2008, 09:20:49 PM
and ell, you and i have a truce! ;)
yes, and we had to hammer it out with much heart pain on both sides!
why does Mara get off so easy?
-ellie
Quote from: mara on February 10, 2008, 03:43:06 PM
Quote from: Cindi Jones on February 10, 2008, 03:21:53 PM
As I stated above, Christ physically suffered for the sins of humanity in Gethsamane prior to his crucifixion. His death was necessary so that he could be resurrected and thereby providing the path for those to follow.
That makes NO SENSE???
Regardless of Whether he DIED two day later or not, MY QUESTION IS what was accomplished by IT???\
your answer is so he could be resurected, and provide a path for others to follow???
rather empty answer....
Hey, I didn't say that it made sense. That's the doctrine that they have given us. I'm not defending or pushing it. I'm only trying to answer the question posed. Doctrinally, Christ as a god, could have just gone on a cruise or spelunking in Brazil rather than take the afternoon baking in the sun. But again according to the doctrine, for the resurrection to be possible for all mankind, he had to die. If he didn't die, he could not have resurrected himself ... and by God's decree, he had to be the first. He had to voluntarily give up his own life for resurrection to work. Again.... this is the doctrine. This is the very basis of Christianity.... not Cindi's beliefs. If you want to see what I believe, check out my Chronicles here on the site.
I try to find reasonable explanations for things rather than to believe something that has been passed down for generations. I've been given an inquisitive mind. I want to use it before I die. Religion is adequate for my dear mother to answer all of the two questions she's had during her existence concerning the meaning of life. Me..... I want more. That's why the study of cosmology and related sciences has been so interesting to me. Give me some data points, a hypothesis, and a good theory and I'm much more satisfied with the potential answers.
Cindi
Quote from: ell on February 10, 2008, 08:43:47 PM
i think you may have offended Cindi, Beth06, Kristi, and Ashley Michelle, and, i dunno, it might be well if you apologized.
also, fyi, it's not exactly kosher to rebel against Christianity on the Spirituality boards. (try the Philosophy section!!)
Kind Regards, & i hope i haven't lectured ya
-ellie
im all good too. no hard feelings at all.. and ell.. i think you are awesome. you too mara ... much love ^-^
i think that all the answers were very good... and a little short from my understanding.
Apoligies***
Cindy I see what you have written here:
"Hey, I didn't say that it made sense. That's the doctrine that they have given us. I'm not defending or pushing it. I'm only trying to answer the question posed. Doctrinally, Christ as a god, could have just gone on a cruise or spelunking in Brazil rather than take the afternoon baking in the sun. But again according to the doctrine, for the resurrection to be possible for all mankind, he had to die. If he didn't die, he could not have resurrected himself ... and by God's decree, he had to be the first. He had to voluntarily give up his own life for resurrection to work. Again.... this is the doctrine. This is the very basis of Christianity.... not Cindi's beliefs. If you want to see what I believe, check out my Chronicles here on the site."
Frankly I want to know your beliefs, I wrote this post asking others to display thier opinions of how things went down, not how they were taught they happened, beliefs dont need to be a mile long. For example my beliefs that may not agree with the "BIBLE"
*All go to heaven
*The bible was not intended to accompany Christainity, merely books written thorugout time about the subject...
ect, ect, ect
Cindy you say "Hey, I didn't say that it made sense. That's the doctrine that they have given us" thats the last thing I want to hear here, I have heard nothing but pretense for 18 years of my life, I need opinions from true followers that stand up to reason and rationale.
No worries Ash, I read it all and liked it...
Sorry i am coming off such a rebel here, the thing is I would like to say I am Christain, I just feel there are so many holes that inevitably my overactive brain cannot accept such, so it works to fill the holes it sees with short concise logical answers so that it can perfect it and therefore accept it.
And no this is as much your thread as it is mine..
BTW I especially like the part where you said.
Religion is about what you do, Christianity is about who you are.
I could not agree more...
Again to all sorry i am such a divert person in my words... Please bear with me, I am trying to grasp this concept...
Quote from: mara on February 11, 2008, 08:01:23 AM
Cindy you say "Hey, I didn't say that it made sense. That's the doctrine that they have given us" thats the last thing I want to hear here, I have heard nothing but pretense for 18 years of my life, I need opinions from true followers that stand up to reason and rationale.
Well I guess this is one place I part company with my dear friend Cindi. Theology, by nature, is often defined as faith seeking understanding. That's why I am always excited to see people asking good questions. I appreciate it when I see a person who really wants to search. I asked LOTS of questions at one point in my life and am still asking today. I only don't appreciate it when a question is asked which is actually a thinly veiled personal attack. I've been guilty of it in the past, too, but I hope to have grown past that.
I do believe Christianity makes perfect logical sense. In fact, for me, it was the only theological system that did. And I say that after much examination and study. I don't agree with those who imply that Christianity, and especially the doctrine of the resurrection are for the intellectually inferior. I can elaborate but only if you want more. I don't want this to get too long.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: beth06 on February 10, 2008, 11:47:43 PM
im all good too. no hard feelings at all.. and ell.. i think you are awesome. you too mara ... much love ^-^
Thank you beth06. :)
Kristi and everybody,
Yep I am just at that point in my life, asking a ton of questions stage, I want to know everything there is to know about the subject, I will scrutinize, and logically break it all down, but the fact of the matter that I see Christianity as the only theological reality that could be...
we all have our own opinions though...
thanks for helping to answer all these questions...
Kristi,
I often will get accused by my family that I think that they "are stupid" (their words not mine) because of their beliefs. Nothing can be further from the truth. A belief by definition may or may not have logic behind it. Logic is not the end all in this existence. And there are few answers for everything we face in life.
I don't think that I have actually ever "denied" the Christian faith. I try very hard to make my thinking to not appear as Christian bashing. For I wish to do neither. I cherish the faith of my friends and value their prayers and thoughtfulness.
But there are many things in the various religions that no one has ever been able to explain to me. While I can take many things on faith alone, there are a number of things that are difficult. Believe me, I tried for many years. I decided to study the doctrine, learn what I could, and just accept that there are many things that do not hold viable answers for me. That's not to say they can not be a viable source of comfort for someone else.
Cindi
Cindi,
You, of all people, have always demonstrated the utmost of respect for everyone, even if you differ in faith with them. It is one of the things I appreciate so much about you. With your background, I find this amazing. I can't imagine your family having reason to think you treat them as stupid. We both know enough of each other's history to know that we have both been involved in a protracted study of this issue for many years and have been much more intense in our efforts than the average person. There are many questions I hold more deeply than ever, and other doctrines I have changed through the years. I see no problem in that. As I said, I delight to see good questions when someone is truly asking. I am only irritated by misrepresentation of the facts presented in some kind of authoritarian wrapper.
I agree that logic is not the end all and be all. But I've never been afraid of it, and never plan to be.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Wow! Cindi, your family sees you the same way mine does.
They think that because I have such a intense desire to question everything and challenge their faith, that I think they are stupid.
Quite the oppisite is true, I am amazed by them and want to know everything there is to know about faith.
I however hard a hard time keeping humble in my challenges, but it is easier when done in writing, and I am very excited to have realized susans.org had a Christain section, (I just found it a few days ago)
So thanks for bearing with my ignorant grunts about the faith, I am just trying to wrap my head around concepts... :angel:
Mara,
The best way to learn about it is to go to the source. Bible study won't hurt you. I think it also important to study the history surrounding the Bible and its people as well. It will give you tremendous insight and help you to understand why they did some things as they did as chronicled in the scriptures.
Come to your own opinions. Don't let anyone tell you what something means. Ask questions and decide for yourself.
Cindi
Dont care much for the "bible" or the many books that make up the bible....
Its too disputable, and I cant see how one says its possible to base the christan religion off of it.
More meant in my opinion as authors writing about the religion not as GOD writing through them, or more precisely as Ashley put in section #6 in her first major response to me.
I think I would get kicked out quicker than mercury on a glass table... I'm hoping you guys can bear with my rebel, menical meanderings
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Also I would like to address something I cant understand.
In the Bible, Jesus walks into the temple and sees goats, animals, ect things that furthered the sale of things in the temple, right?
He becomes pissed off and throws them out, angered he says the temple is holy and not meant for profit.
Well i went to church for 18 years, and every church i have ever been too has a bookstore, vending machines, ATM machine???
This disgusts me severly, How can they claim good faith, when there IS A ATM machine or Coca Cola being sold within the church???
Mara,
In your example, the money changers in the temple were there making money for personal gain. The money collection in your chapel most likely goes to fund the church does it not?
And whatever happened to the goats, sheep, and chickens? ;)
Cindi
Specifically the Books that the preachers write go to thier personal benefit, so that they can drive porches, live in a million dollar home, ect
Also vending machine companies love churches, they make the profit from the machines and in turn the machine is able to offer its clientelle beverages...
ATM's offer the ability for memebers to withdraw cash to donate, with the bank or service provider profiting from the $1.95 withdraw fee.
Mara,
To be fair, most pastors, even if they do write books, are barely making it as they try to support their families. Please don't lump the entire group of those in ministry with the all-too-visible 'mega-evangelists' who have given them a sour name.
While it's true that megachurches are becoming popular, they are NOT the norm. It's easy to criticize churches for looking for ways to pay their bills, but it's far more important to look and see what those churches are doing in the community. Your perceptions might... just might... be a little off, or even discolored by how "Christians" have treated GLBT people.
God knows we've all been hit with fingers in our face, or given the "left foot of fellowship." In the end, though, our spiritual walk remains. Those of us who ARE Christians understand the work that good churches do in the community, and are quick to help when we can.
Those who have written books (myself included) often view it as a way to get the message out there. Yes, it helps to pad our income... but the reality is that most small churches have pastors who are not paid at all.
In all honesty, you get what you look for. If you think you'd get kicked out quickly, maybe that's because it's what you expect. But if you find a GLBT-affirming church, you'll find just how welcoming they can be.
Thanks to everyone to a great response to this thread! Keep it up!
David I have been waiting for you...
Specifically on this issue, my interpretation of it is simple, you can write as many books, ect things as you please, but Jesus's rule was simple keep it out of the church...
Also you are right my view is very tainted by the Mega Churches, that is all I was a part of for 18, My Mother was deeply involved in a couple of these orginzations and I saw some of the most "Prominent" Christain "Leaders" through out my life, just to later google them, and see that in fact they spread messages of hate...
But thank you for your rersponse, and yes I know that there are GLBT accepting churches out there, but then again you see from time to time, articles like the one posted in the new section yesterday here, How Evangelicals Take On GLBT, or articles about Focus on the Family, and to be honest 90% of the orginations at least take their views.
But that was not the point of this thread, I am trying to seek answers regarding the christain faith, I have many questions to ask.
Mara,
I quite agree with your criticisms of some churches. But like David says, please do not lump all of the churches together with the few that seem to get all of the spotlight. I've never been part of a megachurch and never plan to be for many of the reasons you have named. I do write an publish music, but the profits from that are quite small. And in our church, we do not do credit cards or ATMs or have a book store. Occasionally we do have a project we need to fund and do fund raisers specifically for it. But I also know that the pastor is a long way from living in a million dollar home or driving a fancy car. Oh, and we are an extremely accepting mid-size congregation that has a Coke Machine. We keep the price at break even, so we make no money off of it. We find that lots of people come through our door to get a drink for that reason.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
Quote from: mara on February 13, 2008, 09:07:22 AM
David I have been waiting for you...
Sorry about that! I've been incredibly busy lately... Bad David... Bad David...
Posted on: February 13, 2008, 12:39:05 PM
Quote from: mara on February 13, 2008, 09:07:22 AM
Specifically on this issue, my interpretation of it is simple, you can write as many books, ect things as you please, but Jesus's rule was simple keep it out of the church...
The Apostle Paul also said that the worker is worthy of his hire, and that was in reference to ministry. But you're right. Christ overturned the tables in the temple because of the vast amount of abuse that was going on then. We would sometimes sell cassette tapes of sermons, but we kept the price down to $1 which paid for supplies only, and broke even. It worked out great. We probably gave out as many tapes as we sold, so it's far from money-handling. Then, with the advent of MP3 format, sermons can be provided free of charge by most churches, which is win-win for everyone.
QuoteAlso you are right my view is very tainted by the Mega Churches, that is all I was a part of for 18, My Mother was deeply involved in a couple of these orginzations and I saw some of the most "Prominent" Christain "Leaders" through out my life, just to later google them, and see that in fact they spread messages of hate...
You're absolutely right. With organizations like Focus on the Family and other highly visible windbags like Rod Parsley, it's plainly evident that the vast majority of high-profile preachers and "leaders" are very vocal in their verbal violence toward the GLBT community. This is unfortunate, and it's also why I don't watch TBN. I grieve every time I hear hatred preached in the name of a loving God. Then, I get angry because these busybodies do all they can to squelch equality. It's anything BUT Christian behavior, in my opinion.
QuoteBut thank you for your rersponse, and yes I know that there are GLBT accepting churches out there, but then again you see from time to time, articles like the one posted in the new section yesterday here, How Evangelicals Take On GLBT, or articles about Focus on the Family, and to be honest 90% of the orginations at least take their views.
But that was not the point of this thread, I am trying to seek answers regarding the christain faith, I have many questions to ask.
And there are 10% who don't. Find the ones who don't, and I submit that you'll find a true message of Christ. Keep pressing on!
I've probably told some of you that I am indeed a pastor. Believe it or not. I am not paid nor do I ask for donations. But I don't have a real active ministry either. We only get together once a month out in the trees..... and it is a very small group. We are also non demonitational in the truest sense.
Back in the early days of Christ, he did not require money to do what he did. These days money is a necessary evil. You need some to pay for the buildings, utilities, and something for those who work full time in the ministry. Very few ministers can get by without some money. That's the reality. Back when I was active with the MCC in Salt Lake City, the poor pastor worked a full time job in the real world and could barely keep the church going through donations. It was tough for him and I admired his tenacity for the wonderful work that he did.
I have no problem with people writing books. In many cases, they can be a source of inspiration and understanding. As an author myself, I can assure you that most books do not create a livable income. For most cases, the publishing world is built to favor the publishers, not the authors.
There are however volumes produced which are not filled with the message of love. You'll recognize them when you read them. Messages filled with hate, guilt mongering, and a lack of understanding for todays problems are very easy to spot.
So Mara, what's your next question?
Cindi
I've seen many people of good faith do many good works, and as the Bible tells us, Sometimes the Devil comes as a man of peace. But the solution is in there too - By their fruits will you know them. Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.
wow, its probably been months since I made a reply. Generally I find this section to be most enjoyable. I have loved many of the responses, Kristi with the parable, the kind words reconciliation, and articulate answers to difficult questions. Much like others, I would like to offer new thought regard the death of Jesus. It has been much talk surronding the death and little about the ressurection. I think the idea of the ressurection was mentioned by Kristi, but I felt important to discuss the ressurection and in turn may give more insight into why he died, and more importantly what it accomplished.
I know it was asked that the one responding give their views. In a few breif words i'll attempt. Throughout the Gospel of Matthew Jesus alludes and speaks of his death and ressurection as something that was going to happen. If it was to happen, what was it to accomplish? I think a few things: 1) display of radical love (great comment Kristi), 2) a conquering of death, 3) a future hope
Since point one has already been answered I will skip to point two. Throughout the gospel of Matthew (I speak from Matthew because I know it the best) Jesus claims to be the son of God. His miracles (and some parables) point to this claim. Jesus is seen as conquering nature (calming of the storm), sickness (healings of the paralytic), demons (legion), death of others (bringing back the life of the daughter). Jesus has shown his power over the world except in conquering his own death. In the ressurection, death had lost, it could not control Jesus. So what now for us. Through the coming of the spirit, brought about by his death, we are given new life in Jesus. The ressurection gives us new life.
3) gives us hope. this ties in closely with the second answer. Paul the Apostle talks about the uselessness of Jesus's death without the ressurection. Just as Jesus rose so to will his followers (others aswell, but this is a different issue). Death is no longer the end, it has been defeated by the radical love of Jesus.
I know this is a relativily sloppy answer. All my sources are currently away. If you have any questions I would love to offer an idea. next time I'll use some sources.
James
You know what everyone? I am gonna give God another go, Im gonna go to church next Sunday...
That most likely isnt gonna go over real well with my Girlfriend but Im gonna do it, It would be interesting to see what they make of me..
Hope I wont get kicked out. haha
Interesting thread. Despite being a newbie, I'll throw in my two cents (it is Lent after all, and I can spend a little time on this).
Here's my take on the questions:
First, why did Christ die? Or what was accomplished by His death?
Cindi said it right on the first page-- He died for the sins of the world? The follow up question is how? How does Christ's death atone for our sins?
St Paul's Epistle to the Romans says "The wages of sin is death". This is commonly interpreted to mean that you deserve death as punishment for your sin. I don't know that I really buy into this concept, at least not completely. Jesus says in John's gospel that "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." This concept of sin as both task and taskmaster is more to the heart of the matter, or so I think. That's why I say I don't buy into the concept of death as punishment for sin, at least not completely. There's more to it.
Here's a quote from one of my favorite blogs (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/):
"That neatly encapsulates one of the major themes in Paul's epistles: the idea that sin becomes both employment and employer, both task and task-master. Odds are, though, if you're listening to someone presenting the Romans Road, that's not what they'll tell you. They will tell you, contra-Paul in this very passage, that your sin makes you deserving of death and that it is God, not sin, who will pay you this deadly wage."
Christ accepts this payment on your behalf. He dies in your place. In my place. Not because God wants to punish you, and will punish His own Son in our place. Christ dies because that is the nature of sin.
I'm sure there's additional room in this for discussion of the "bread of life" passages from John's gospel. I think those fit nicely in with this concept of how Christ's death atones for our sins. Ultimately, there is no actual answer. Or at least there's no answer key for the question. The Church itself gets to this point and describes our salvation as a mystery. I sort of like that. I'm okay with not know or understanding every little detail. If you're familiar with Catholic beliefs, we believe that Christ is really present in the Eucharistic elements (bread and wine). When I take a wafer from the priest, it still tastes like a cracker, but that doesn't mean that it's just a cracker. You can get a lot of info on this topic from writers like CS Lewis and also Thomas Aquinas. I'll avoid quoting extensively in the interest of keeping the post short.
A few final passages from John's gospel about Christ's death—
From the 12th chapter: "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour."
From earlier in chapter 12: "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."
So, I hope that at least gives us somewhere to start talking more about the first question. The second set of questions it seems you were asking dealt with why churches have bookstores, vending machines, ATMs. Isn't that contradicting the whole "my house should be a house of prayer"?
When I was a kid, my parents attended Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa. It was sort of the original mega-church (or at least it preceded all the other mega-churches that I know of in Southern California). There was a bookstore there that sold books written by the pastor. The books were sort of an extension of the pastor's ministry (as David said in quoting St. Paul "the worker is worthy of his hire"). The bookstore also sold tons of other books—Bible commentaries, dictionaries, that kind of stuff. The bookstore also had a tape lending library. You could get sermons on tape if you missed a week. These were necessary functions at the time because you couldn't get these services from anywhere else. There was no such thing as Barnes and Noble, no Amazon.com, and not many places would custom order a book for you. You were basically out of luck if you wanted Bible commentaries and didn't have a church bookstore that was able to get things like that for you. That was my experience, anyway.
Things have changed significantly since then. And not for the better. I used to patronize church (and burgeoning Christian bookstores) for necessities like Concordances until I noticed something very troubling. Go into any Christian bookstore now and you'll find "The Purpose Driven Life" and the companion diary, prayer journal, meditational devotional and paper dolls. The fiction section is amok with "Left Behind" and its sequels, prequels, spin-offs and other sins against mankind. The section of Christian Classics used to be stocked with things like "The Pilgrim's Progress" or something like that. Pretty much all you can find now is something by CS Lewis. I like CS Lewis, but there's more to the historical writings of the church than CS Lewis. You will find absolutely nothing by any of the church doctors. You might find a copy of St. Augustine's "Confessions". A good book. But certainly not the alpha-omega of all the Church's literature. Ask an employee to order you something and you'll get blank stares. The very sad thing is that the Christianity sections at stores like Borders or Barnes and Noble are actually better than an entire Christian bookstore. You can find writings by authors of the early church, including some of the Christian mystics. Very interesting stuff, that.
I'm not saying that all church bookstores have lost their charted course, but it certainly seems to me that many of them are missing out on their once useful purpose. But part of the problem is with the modern consumer. They aren't interested in looking to the historical church for information, but would rather work through one of the dozens of iterations of "The Purpose Driven Life" or some such.
In this sense, Mara, I agree with you completely. Some churches have missed out on the purpose of having a bookstore. It's moved from being a useful service to becoming a commodity, something to earn money.
I'm going to wrap up here. First, I'm terribly sorry about writing for so long. You've just happened to bring up two issues that are very dear to me. The death of Christ is something I can't resist talking about because I just enjoy talking about it. I hope I've done more than just some sermonizing. Church bookstores are just one of those things that gets my goat. Especially when it's Lent and I'm looking for good books to read. I've been able to pick up "Dark Night of the Soul" by John of the Cross, at Barnes and Noble, but I'm always so let down by the poor selection at most Christian stores.
The last thing I want to say is an advance apology to anyone I may have inadvertently offended. I am not trying to belittle anyone's love or appreciation of the "Left Behind" series. I use that as a common example of some of the problems in the "Christian marketplace" because it really has spawned a franchise of its own (along with the Purpose Driven series). These get picked on by virtue of their popularity and ubiquity. So, sorry if I ticked anyone off. It wasn't deliberate, I was just trying to point out that so many Christian stores don't even stock literary works of the early Church, let alone know of their existence. It is a horrible oversight.
In some circles he committed suicide to become a martyr.
Quote from: lisagurl on March 05, 2008, 02:51:43 PM
In some circles he committed suicide to become a martyr.
Have never heard that view before.
Jesus was persecuted and then was executed, he didn't want to die! He would not renounce his faith and who he was, so he had to die by the law of the land. That in itself is a lesson for everyone.
Mary, Queen of Scots, was beheaded because she would not give up her Catholic faith!
Quote from: buttercup on March 06, 2008, 06:27:03 PM
Quote from: lisagurl on March 05, 2008, 02:51:43 PM
In some circles he committed suicide to become a martyr.
Have never heard that view before.
i know, right? isn't that
raw?
QuoteMary, Queen of Scots, was beheaded because she would not give up her Catholic faith!
The Romans also executed a few Christians for not saying they renounced their faith.However the Romans did not care what people believed in private only what they declared in public because it was a cry against the Government and the collection of taxes. To knowingly agree to die for a verbal utterance is suicide just as a martyr decries his actions in the name of a belief. Jesus and many other Christians could have done a lot more good had they operated out of sight of the authorities.
Quote from: buttercup on March 06, 2008, 06:27:03 PM
Mary, Queen of Scots, was beheaded because she would not give up her Catholic faith!
Like most things between between Monarchs the reason for Mary's execution was political and had to do with succession. There
was religious turmoil in the UK and Mary was a Roman Catholic to Elizabeth's Anglicanism. That could be used as a base of popular support for mary's claim. Of more important concern was that Mary's father in law, the King of France, supported Mary's claim to the English throne. Elizabeth viewed Mary, whom she'd never met, as a threat to her throne. Sooo, like the Queen of Hearts says, "Off with her head!!!".
OK, Mary Queen of Scotts aside, here is what I never got. Didn't get it through 12 years of Catholic School, didn't get it in the some 30 years after that either, and I've yet to have a Christian give me a valid reason.
Why could not God - being God (so he can do whatever he wants, by defination) - just give a New York City answer and tell Adam and Eve - "Fugetaboutit"? Why all that song and dance? Why not just let bygones be bygones, "OK Eve ate the apple, darn - I was hoping she wouldn't do that, but the snake is pretty tricksey and all, oh .... ah, forget it?"
Quote from: tekla on March 07, 2008, 12:35:47 PM
OK, Mary Queen of Scotts aside, here is what I never got. Didn't get it through 12 years of Catholic School, didn't get it in the some 30 years after that either, and I've yet to have a Christian give me a valid reason.
Why could not God - being God (so he can do whatever he wants, by defination) - just give a New York City answer and tell Adam and Eve - "Fugetaboutit"? Why all that song and dance? Why not just let bygones be bygones, "OK Eve ate the apple, darn - I was hoping she wouldn't do that, but the snake is pretty tricksey and all, oh .... ah, forget it?"
I attempted to go here in my earlier post:
Quote from: Jessica L. on March 05, 2008, 11:05:53 AM
St Paul's Epistle to the Romans says "The wages of sin is death". This is commonly interpreted to mean that you deserve death as punishment for your sin. I don't know that I really buy into this concept, at least not completely. Jesus says in John's gospel that "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." This concept of sin as both task and taskmaster is more to the heart of the matter, or so I think. That's why I say I don't buy into the concept of death as punishment for sin, at least not completely. There's more to it.
Here's a quote from one of my favorite blogs (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/):
"That neatly encapsulates one of the major themes in Paul's epistles: the idea that sin becomes both employment and employer, both task and task-master. Odds are, though, if you're listening to someone presenting the Romans Road, that's not what they'll tell you. They will tell you, contra-Paul in this very passage, that your sin makes you deserving of death and that it is God, not sin, who will pay you this deadly wage."
What I was trying to say with my (overly) lengthy explanation and the quote is that it isn't God who wants to punish us. In a sense, He can't simply say "Fugetaboutit" because "Fugetaboutit" isn't the right response. Christ said that "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved". I get the sense that Christ's death has less to do with pleasing an angry God than it does with saving us from something that we did--namely making slaves of ourselves.
By our free will, with the choices we make, we become slaves to sin ("Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin"). We, by which I mean any sinner, have done this to ourselves. This is not God punishing us for our sins. This is sin punishing us for our sins. Not a devil in red pyjamas, not a vengeful God. We are reaping what we sow.
If I stand on your foot, and apologize, you could say "Fugetaboutit". (Sorry, I just love typing that so I've kept using it). But if I have fouled up my life with bad choices and become a slave to those bad decisions, how does you saying "Fugetaboutit" help at all? I need a much deeper intervention to set my life straight.
I do understand some of that. My grandmother used to tell me that "you make your habits, then your habits make you,... or break you." Should have listened to her better at times I guess. A line from some old song I like a lot goes: "I can tell your future, oh just look whats in your hand." Which I always took to mean that most people keep on doing what they were doing. Little did I know - and I'm not sure if I would change it if I had - that back when I was 15 and working with Little Princess 109 Lighting, that I'd most likely still be doing it a half century later. Perhaps I might have made different choices. Or not.
That the Christ was sent - not to die for our sins, a rather radical reading of the Gospels no doubt - as a 'signpost to a new space' is a nice thought. Though it seems contra-Christian. That Jesus acted in that way, and in that manner, knowing the final outcome, and kept on doing it anyway has a kind of reassurance to it that mainstream thought seems to lack. I know I'm not alone in thinking that the TV preacher, with the expensive watch, the private jet and all that material stuff is not exactly walking the walk of 'blessed are the poor.'
My favorite theologian, (and I don't have many) Edward Schillebeeckx, as much as argued (though he would pull back somewhat) that the resurrection of Christ was meant to be a metaphorical ideal, one that we could make part of our lives, in that every day, we have the ability to forgive ourselves, and get about with trying to live a good life. To the degree that 'the wages of sin are death' (though the life of Christ pretty much proves that the wages of doing nothing but good stuff is pretty much the same) its we who kill ourselves with guilt and recrimination. "For all have fallen short of the Glory of God" is a given, and we have to forgive ourselves first.
Quote from: tekla on March 07, 2008, 01:25:53 PM
My favorite theologian, (and I don't have many) Edward Schillebeeckx, as much as argued (though he would pull back somewhat) that the resurrection of Christ was meant to be a metaphorical ideal, one that we could make part of our lives, in that every day, we have the ability to forgive ourselves, and get about with trying to live a good life.
I think the world would be infinitely improved if people practiced just a small part of this.
Reminds me of what David Letterman said when Sixpence None the Richer was a musical guest on the Late Show years ago. But that's another story.
Your statement about the TV preacher rings more than true. I had a friend in high school who reportedly heard one say "If you don't send me money, Jesus won't love you anymore". I think there's a special place in hell for people like that.
I think there's an awful lot of reliance on "by faith you have been saved, not of works lest any man should boast" but a complete ignorance of "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."
Go into any Christian bookstore now and you'll find "The Purpose Driven Life" and the companion diary, prayer journal, meditational devotional and paper dolls. The fiction section is amok with "Left Behind" and its sequels, prequels, spin-offs and other sins against mankind. The section of Christian Classics used to be stocked with things like "The Pilgrim's Progress" or something like that. Pretty much all you can find now is something by CS Lewis. I like CS Lewis, but there's more to the historical writings of the church than CS Lewis. You will find absolutely nothing by any of the church doctors. You might find a copy of St. Augustine's "Confessions". A good book.
I'm pretty sure that most Christian bookstores are not much on Catholic theology, and you ain't finding Thomas Merton or Dorothy Day in there either - though The Seven Story Mountain by Merton, and Dorothy Day's (1952) The Long Loneliness are both pretty much modern takes on Augustine. Which I think is not just a good book, its one of the true classics of the ages.
How right you are. Unfortunately, in addition to not being much on Catholic theology, they're not much on theology of any kind. Unless it's the kind you can sell with a fancy cardboard in-store display. :)
If you look for anything that's more than superficial theology there's a greater than 99% chance you'll come up empty. Or so my experience has been.
Are you calling "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Christians" cardboard theology?
I think you should find the Day book - "The Long Loneliness." Its the hard-core stuff. Brutal at points. Ain't no easy walk to God for sure.
LOL.
Far be it from me to criticize the reading habits of others. Except I guess I've already done that. Alright. I'll go out on a limb. Yes. It's cardboard theology. It looks great, but there's nothing holding it up in the back. A stiff kick or a strong breeze and it'll fall right over. There I said it. And I meant it.
If you ever need a good laugh, take a look at the "Left Behind" section of the slacktivist blog I linked to earlier. It's priceless.
What with it being Lent and all, I'll make a more than usual effort to pick up The Long Loneliness. Even the title sounds good. Who knows, I might even find it at Borders or *gasp* Barnes and Noble.
Thanks much for the recommendation.
Harper Collins just re-released it. If the mainstream guys don't have it I'm sure you could order it through the Catholic Worker Movement which she founded.
And I've read bits of Left Behind, as much as I could stomach, which as it turns out, was not all that much.
I'm not surprised you had trouble with it. The Left Behind series are among the worst books ever written. Seriously, check out the slacktivist blog. I think you'll appreciate it.
In fact, there's a new Left Behind post for today (the writer, Fred, posts a new entry every Friday on what is referred to as Left Behind Friday by his readers).
Quote from: tekla on March 07, 2008, 12:35:47 PM
Why could not God - being God (so he can do whatever he wants, by defination) - just give a New York City answer and tell Adam and Eve - "Fugetaboutit"? Why all that song and dance? Why not just let bygones be bygones, "OK Eve ate the apple, darn - I was hoping she wouldn't do that, but the snake is pretty tricksey and all, oh .... ah, forget it?"
Could God have done that? Of course. However, it would not have been just. It is like saying that God just winks at sin. That is not true. In order for God to be just, ample payment had to have been made. So why did God choose the way God did? Because to become a human, to become one of us, to show us a better way, and to ultimately pay the penalty for us, it the very most loving thing possible. Telling us to just forget about sin is about the most blatant way to portray apathy.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fganjataz.com%2F01smileys%2Fimages%2Fsmileys%2FloopyBlonde-blinking.gif&hash=4545ddf8251cf9c32ae6074d56e48bc34a755857)Kristi
I have a slightly different take on why Jesus had to die the way he did.
throughout the old testament there are hundreds of little predictions about how Jesus would die. All - as far as i know all came true.
If Jesus didn't die a public death he might not have had a lasting impact and there would not have looked into his life as much.
God tweaked everything so that the message of love would last forever.- I also believe that god died for our sins. but i think this might be the sort of answer you are seeking.