Bear with me, still trying to 'get' all this. :laugh:
What is the difference between an androgynee and a girl with a masculine side or boy with a feminine side?
Difference other than personal identification (the tomboy still ids as female)? Because isn't the tomboy both male and female in personality?
Disclaimer before Nero gets run out of the forest: I'm not challenging the validity of androgyny as a gender. Just curious as to what the differences are.
I think the difference is that a tomboys and femboys are not male and female in personality. Femboys are males with feminine traits, habits and displayed characteristics, but these are feminine traits that express not only a male identity but male concerns - only that is translated into a feminine manner.
I think an androgyne is behaving the way that feels right and it comes out as male and female, but the intentions and the concerns are a-gendered concerns.
I think the trouble of trying to understand androgynes through ideas of gender is that androgynes (by definition) don't have much grasp on gender, androgyne behaviour is only gendered in retrospect or learnt societal rules after the fact.
So, yeah - the fem/tomboy know their actions are gendered while the androgyne only know it after the fact or not at all, or have to have it pointed out to them.
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 16, 2008, 12:04:18 PM
I think the difference is that a tomboys and femboys are not male and female in personality. Femboys are males with feminine traits, habits and displayed characteristics, but these are feminine traits that express not only a male identity but male concerns - only that is translated into a feminine manner.
Hmm never heard of that before. Interesting. Could you provide an example of a male expressing male concerns in a feminine way?
Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 11:39:02 AM
Bear with me, still trying to 'get' all this. :laugh:
What is the difference between an androgynee and a girl with a masculine side or boy with a feminine side?
Difference other than personal identification (the tomboy still ids as female)? Because isn't the tomboy both male and female in personality?
Disclaimer before Nero gets run out of the forest: I'm not challenging the validity of androgyny as a gender. Just curious as to what the differences are.
Not to worry Nero, we wouldn't chase you out of the forest. Unless of course you fail to show up bearing the proper gift offerings ;)
A tomboy presumably still identifies as female, and the femboy likewise considers themselves to be male. I can't speak for others, however this androgyne is neither male or female.
Z
I dunno, what are male concerns?
lol you're the one that just used that term.
male concerns, male concerns... dunno. I'm male so all my concerns are male. I wouldn't recognize the difference.
well you're both aren'tcha? you tell me.
no, I'm neither.
Makes these conversations a bit difficult sometimes (see above post, 3rd baby paragraph.)
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 16, 2008, 12:25:37 PM
no, I'm neither.
Makes these conversations a bit difficult sometimes (see above post, 3rd baby paragraph.)
Or maybe you're not androgynee at all. Maybe you're just Pica - a gender unto itself.
Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 11:39:02 AM
What is the difference between an androgynee and a girl with a masculine side or boy with a feminine side?
Difference other than personal identification (the tomboy still ids as female)? Because isn't the tomboy both male and female in personality?
The tomboy does not feel as though she is a boy, she knows that she is a girl in sex and gender. The opposite goes for a feminine boy, he knows he is still a boy. They incorporate the traits and dress in the manner traditional of the opposite sex/gender.
Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of their physical sex.
Quote from: sd on April 16, 2008, 12:47:59 PM
Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of their physical sex.
they do don't they? and when they don't it seems to be a decision. That seems like an important piece of t'puzzle, thanks.
Quote from: sd on April 16, 2008, 12:47:59 PM
Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of their physical sex.
My traits have always tended more toward female than male, which is why things initially seemed right to me when I came to the realization I was TS.
Although I currently dress as male, it's because of work, etc. In a perfect world, where one didn't have to fear for one's safety if they didn't conform to societal gender expression, I would choose to dress much more feminine, but without trying to pass as female.
Z
Quote from: Nero on April 16, 2008, 11:39:02 AM
What is the difference between an androgynee and a girl with a masculine side or boy with a feminine side?
I'd say it's partly a difference between identity and expression: the androgyne is between genders inside, the others are that way outside. But you said you weren't looking for this answer.
I'll go for the other part of the 'partly', then. It's really a matter of how you want to look at it. A girl with significant male traits is rather far away from the prototypical woman, and likewise the boy with lots of female traits is not too close to the prototypical man. The prototypical androgyne is in the middle (straddling the line in a two-gender division); just how much of the gender space you want to give to this middle gender is up to discussion.
So, you can place a tomboy either at the androgyne end of 'woman' or the feminine end of 'androgyne'. Depends on how you want to look at things, and also the exact gender makeup of the tomboy in question. Of course, you could also ask em. :)
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 16, 2008, 12:52:27 PM
Quote from: sd on April 16, 2008, 12:47:59 PM
Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of their physical sex.
they do don't they? and when they don't it seems to be a decision. That seems like an important piece of t'puzzle, thanks.
Yes. Now that this came up, it sounds good. It's also a bit like what you said in the latest video: even a gender-illiterate androgyne can realise that an obviously male-looking person ought not to expect too much acceptance if e put on a pretty dress.
Nfr
Sorry Z, it was not meant as an absolute. While trying to break it down to something simple, that sort of got lost in the process.
Is this better?
Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of one of the traditional sexes in order to conform with society.
I don't think there is a simple catch all.
Quote from: sd on April 16, 2008, 02:03:46 PM
Sorry Z, it was not meant as an absolute. While trying to break it down to something simple, that sort of got lost in the process.
Is this better?
Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of one of the traditional sexes in order to conform with society.
I don't think there is a simple catch all.
I didn't think you meant it as an absolute, SD.
This could become another topic, what do other androgynes do? Myself, I don't adopt any traits or mannerisms that don't feel natural, thus people might see male externally and wonder why I act certain ways I do. Dress conforms, or at least enough, only because I must make a living.
Zythyra
The difference is that I wish I were a tomboy and a tomboy does not wish to be me.
How do you know? All these tomboys sitting around saying, 'I wish I were Rebis.'
It's funny actually, if I were born a female bodied androgyne I reckon I would have presented myself very girly and not a tom boy at all.
I had an interesting realization during transition that if I'd been born with women's body, I would have likely been on the tomboy/butch side of expression, but as a male bodied person, lean more towards the femme.
Z
I haven't run into the term Femboy before. Tomboys are distinguished by behavior, while we have be saying that androgynes are distinguished by their psychology. A female can go through a tomboy phase, while the androgyne is weird for life. Some behaviors reserved for tomboys, have been adopted by a wide range of girls and women: clothing associated with boys and men, sports, physical activities, a bold demeanor, and befriending boys as equals and peers. Boys and men, on the other hand, do more housework and cooking, and are more concerned with, and more willing to act to improve, their physical appearance
I found a reference in Wikipedia to an article from December, 1981, in the journal Sex Roles, titled: "Tomboys and sissies: Androgynous children?" According to the abstract: "This study had two purposes: (1) to identify potentially "androgynous" children as those labeled by their peers as "tomboys" and "sissies"; (2) to compare personality characteristics of "androgynous" children with those of peers. Subjects were 312 elementary school children in a midwestern city. Results indicate that the labels tomboy and sissy are not necessarily indicators of androgynous children, but important social behaviors are related to the labels. For males, the possibility of frustrated creativity was raised."
in the end, there seems to be an overlap, but androgyne is not a synonym for tomboy or femboy.
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on April 16, 2008, 05:24:47 PM
I haven't run into the term Femboy before.
I just made it up. :laugh:
That's actually why I used it. Was trying to come up with a term other than sissy. Sissy sounds so demeaning.
Isn't a male tomboy a janegirl?
I prefer the term femboy, was nice, like gameboy.
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 16, 2008, 04:12:00 PM
It's funny actually, if I were born a female bodied androgyne I reckon I would have presented myself very girly and not a tom boy at all.
Oh, you're there.
Quote from: Zythyra on April 16, 2008, 04:17:22 PM
I had an interesting realization during transition that if I'd been born with women's body, I would have likely been on the tomboy/butch side of expression, but as a male bodied person, lean more towards the femme.
Z
But yet when you became a woman you didn't? Why is that?
(Or am I wrong, if so, my sincere apologies. It was not meant to be rude, if you do not wish to discuss it I understand.)
I am curious because I sort of though of myself in the same manner except I forced myself toward the male side hoping to fit in. Which to be honest, I question the wisdom of that decision.
Posted on: April 16, 2008, 07:52:51 PM
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 16, 2008, 04:12:00 PM
It's funny actually, if I were born a female bodied androgyne I reckon I would have presented myself very girly and not a tom boy at all.
I swear Pica Pica, a little work on your voice you could get away with it with little effort at all.
A little voice work and a little makeup, you would be all set. With your accent you could probably get away with no voice work here in much of the U.S., the accent would throw people as it is. A corset would probably work miracles on you in the shape department.
Seriously.
I'm a bit jealous
Quote from: sd on April 16, 2008, 08:00:24 PM
But yet when you became a woman you didn't? Why is that?
(Or am I wrong, if so, my sincere apologies. It was not meant to be rude, if you do not wish to discuss it I understand.)
I am curious because I sort of though of myself in the same manner except I forced myself toward the male side hoping to fit in. Which to be honest, I question the wisdom of that decision.
To make a long story short... I felt more comfortable living as a woman than I ever had as a man. But ultimately it felt as though I was exchanging one box for another, that didn't quite fit either, although it was better.
Other factors included; I wasn't willing to lose my musical career, which was taking a big hit when I transitioned, and also I really don't wish to be tethered to the medical establishment for the rest of my life. I've always been a person who won't even take an aspirin.
So I asked myself a question, could I simply be myself, with the body I have, honoring who I am inside regardless of what the world sees on the outside. People in other cultures have lived this way throughout history. I feel that the world needs to change, expand the perception of gender to include more than two, I didn't want to change my body just because society can't deal with a person who doesn't fit in the binary.
Anyway, that's the short answer. The long answer will be a book, if I ever get it done ::)
Zythyra
Thank you Z.
Good luck on your book, I would love to read it.
I would say that tomboys are gender queer - and they do what they do because it feels right. Perhaps they are not so different from us.
Perhaps they could be included in the group of people that don't know they are androgyne. They have found an 'accepted' way to behave and express their internal self and have no need to go looking for other answers. Perhaps you could view them as gendered androgynes - like having some identity of their birth sex mixed with the behavioural urges of the opposite sex, while other androgynes don't appear to have a gender at all and they seem to adopt what is convenient or catches their interest.
I am starting to believe that I am a borderline late onset transsexual. I have this unease about identifying as a woman but my unconscious mind yearns for a female body and the ability or 'right' to dress in female attire, but socially I would rather be androgynous - maybe I just want to be a woman without the social rules of being a woman. Maybe I am a Tomboy transsexual? The total rejection of my male self feels too strong to relate well with androgyne sentiments - yet I am aware I have male traits and don't know whether these are self created protection or simply part of who I am. Perhaps Eddie Izzard described it right when he said he was an action ->-bleeped-<- - he runs, leaps, climbs trees and puts on make-up.
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel. I feel like I have just opened a place I have feared to look into. In my heart I don't think I will be happy untill I am, at least outwardly, a woman. My poor family. No rushing into things though eh?
(God, that statement resonates "In my heart I don't think I will be happy untill I am, at least outwardly, a woman." It is crushing to hear myself say it, yet Nicole is going yippee inside yet it is bittersweet, mourning for my poor shell Nicholas who has protected us all his life and has just caught a glimpse of his death and end of his way of life) :icon_ashamed:
Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel.
Welcome to the club.
The next question is, is it worth doing what needs to be done to achieve that or can you make yourself comfortable and work with what you have.
Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 04:37:10 PM
Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel.
Welcome to the club.
The next question is, is it worth doing what needs to be done to achieve that or can you make yourself comfortable and work with what you have.
The male front for me is becoming increasingly painful to put on and to maintain. Even just looking at clothes makes me despondent, angry and depressed. I love crowds yet I can no longer stand to be in one for long. I don't think I could ever be comfortable just working with what I got. I don't know if it will ever be worth it, I got a lot to lose (wife and family). The whole situation is just tragic. Nobody wins. So it is a choice between Fear of the unknown yet possibility filled future laced with pain vs the fear of a future with only one possibility which is living in the shadow of misery.
Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel. I feel like I have just opened a place I have feared to look into. In my heart I don't think I will be happy untill I am, at least outwardly, a woman. My poor family. No rushing into things though eh?
(God, that statement resonates "In my heart I don't think I will be happy untill I am, at least outwardly, a woman." It is crushing to hear myself say it, yet Nicole is going yippee inside yet it is bittersweet, mourning for my poor shell Nicholas who has protected us all his life and has just caught a glimpse of his death and end of his way of life) :icon_ashamed:
I can relate to the feeling of being a female androgyne in a male body. It wouldn't be so bad if I weren't my losing hair on top :( but that's the way it goes.
I really hope you can work it all out with your family Nicole, this is a very tough place to be in. Hugs!
Zythyra
Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 04:37:10 PM
Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel.
Welcome to the club.
The next question is, is it worth doing what needs to be done to achieve that or can you make yourself comfortable and work with what you have.
That is a big question. I confess I continue to take finasteride, though I don't need it for the prostate after my surgery. Yet I face this question daily--and while I lean toward the latter option, I, too, am conflicted, obviously. We went for some family counseling this week, and my daughter told the psychologist: "My Dad wants to be a woman." and cited the red-shoes incident. On the other hand, I heard on NPR today that this Pope differs from his predecessor in that he wears red shoes.
In general, my body works and my relationships work. If hormone therapy takes seven years and a lifelong commitment, what will I be able to do as a 75-year-old woman that I can't in my male body. Perhaps, continuing to push the boundaries as some of you more mature androgynes do...? I do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 05:06:14 PMI do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.
S
When you do, look into button up blouses, they are easy to get away with.
Cracks me up, you keep acting like you are not as outgoing, yet you are the one growing things. :laugh:
Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:54:25 PM
The male front for me is becoming increasingly painful to put on and to maintain. Even just looking at clothes makes me despondent, angry and depressed. I love crowds yet I can no longer stand to be in one for long. I don't think I could ever be comfortable just working with what I got. I don't know if it will ever be worth it, I got a lot to lose (wife and family). The whole situation is just tragic. Nobody wins. So it is a choice between Fear of the unknown yet possibility filled future laced with pain vs the fear of a future with only one possibility which is living in the shadow of misery.
I would say follow what a few others here have done, start off small and slow.
Hair removal, slight clothing changes, minor eyebrow shaping. This sort of thing can do more than you think without causing issues with other people. You can always keep going if you decide or stop when it feels right. None of it is permanent and damage should be light if someone says anything.
Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 06:34:57 PM
I would say follow what a few others here have done, start off small and slow.
Hair removal, slight clothing changes, minor eyebrow shaping. This sort of thing can do more than you think without causing issues with other people. You can always keep going if you decide or stop when it feels right. None of it is permanent and damage should be light if someone says anything.
Yeah, I agree. I've been making slight changes for some time. I'm currently getting laser hair removal on my face. My eyebrows are pretty good at the moment, even my mum asked me to do hers the same. I've worn woman's shoes for a long time. Earrings, nail polish, feminine haircut, hair clips, socks. When I catalogue things in this way I can see how much I kind of deceived myself as to what I want. All these things do is just make it not so bad. It helped for awhile but I find I need more to keep at the same level of feeling comfortable. I'm actually not that concerned what others think and have never been that shy about expressing myself, except for with my wife, I'm going by her boundaries. My country thankfully seems more permissive than America and the law protects me in my job - it is hard to get fired here except for gross misconduct or total incompetence, you can't get fired just because someone does not like you.
QuoteMy country thankfully seems more permissive than America and the law protects me in my job - it is hard to get fired here except for gross misconduct or total incompetence, you can't get fired just because someone does not like you.
Sadly, that's probably true. There are a lot of places in the US that are really accepting, luckily Louisville is one of them, but ever since Bush took the presidency (I refuse to say that he was elected), the religious right has come out a swingin'. I think the populace is getting sick of them finally...I hope anyway.
(I think it's weird how Christians today, the loud ones anyway, are so self righteous and if they would just read the bible, they'd see that it was the self righteous Pharisees that Christ had such a problem with...i think most Christians don't know anything about Christ himself...but that's another thread >:D)
QuoteI think the trouble of trying to understand androgynes through ideas of gender is that androgynes (by definition) don't have much grasp on gender, androgyne behaviour is only gendered in retrospect or learnt societal rules after the fact.
I agree. How can you have a gender issue if you have no grasp on gender?
Quoteif I'd been born with women's body, I would have likely been on the tomboy/butch side of expression, but as a male bodied person, lean more towards the femme.
I feel the same, but opposite. I think I would have been a very effeminate male while I have always been a rather masculine female. One thing that I never changed was my speech...I'm quite blunt and I (at times) have a filthy mouth (but only when it's funny or in traffic ;)). And I've never suffered from that horrid infantilization of women. I've never pretended to be stupid for attention or pretended to be weak. Nothing irritates me more than watching women act that way in front of men.
As far as tomboys go, I think there are tomboys who are androgyne and tomboys who are binary and the same thing with femboys (reminds me of fembots...hehe), although boys are more pressured to 'be men!' Girls get bullied the same way, but it's different too. Girls are more psychological, I think. They don't always go for public humiliation...
And I'm going to stop there instead of heading off on another tangent... :D
Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
And I'm going to stop there instead of heading off on another tangent... :D
I hope not. You just said a lot of interesting things which naturally leads to my having more questions. :laugh:
Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
As far as tomboys go, I think there are tomboys who are androgyne and tomboys who are binary and the same thing with femboys (reminds me of fembots...hehe), although boys are more pressured to 'be men!' Girls get bullied the same way, but it's different too. Girls are more psychological, I think. They don't always go for public humiliatiion.
Actually I always thought it the other way around. Boys go for the physical abuse, girls go for the public humiliation.
Well, that's what they did to me anyway.
Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
And I've never suffered from that horrid infantilization of women.
Never heard of that before. What's the 'infantilization of women'?
Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 05:06:14 PM
In general, my body works and my relationships work. If hormone therapy takes seven years and a lifelong commitment, what will I be able to do as a 75-year-old woman that I can't in my male body. Perhaps, continuing to push the boundaries as some of you more mature androgynes do...? I do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.
S
As Jaimey said, button down women's blouses or shirts can often be worn with no one getting freaked out. The only difference is often which side the buttons are.
Skirts... that's a whole other story... trust me, I know this from experience ;) :laugh:
Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
Sadly, that's probably true. There are a lot of places in the US that are really accepting, luckily Louisville is one of them, but ever since Bush took the presidency (I refuse to say that he was elected), the religious right has come out a swingin'. I think the populace is getting sick of them finally...I hope anyway.
That's right, he didn't win the election, the supreme court appointed him. Grrrrr. >:(
Quote(I think it's weird how Christians today, the loud ones anyway, are so self righteous and if they would just read the bible, they'd see that it was the self righteous Pharisees that Christ had such a problem with...i think most Christians don't know anything about Christ himself...but that's another thread >:D)
Ain't that the truth!
Z
Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 06:34:57 PM
Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 05:06:14 PMI do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.
S
When you do, look into button up blouses, they are easy to get away with.
Cracks me up, you keep acting like you are not as outgoing, yet you are the one growing things. :laugh:
But what I'm growing is easy to get away with. I found a company online that sells 44-A bras, but I don't need one. Yes they are growing, but slowly, slowly. They only show under a tight shirt, and I have but a few of those. And people seem to see what they expect to see. So, for me, it's about how I feel more than how I present. While I get zingers from my wife occasionally, there have been no fights. That's good, both because of my mild disposition, and because I don't have any logical arguments for any of this.
Keep laughing,
S
Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 10:17:29 PM
Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 06:34:57 PM
Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 05:06:14 PMI do think I will postpone the woman's blouses until my daughter heads off for college at summer's end.
S
When you do, look into button up blouses, they are easy to get away with.
Cracks me up, you keep acting like you are not as outgoing, yet you are the one growing things. :laugh:
But what I'm growing is easy to get away with. I found a company online that sells 44-A bras, but I don't need one. Yes they are growing, but slowly, slowly. They only show under a tight shirt, and I have but a few of those. And people seem to see what they expect to see. So, for me, it's about how I feel more than how I present. While I get zingers from my wife occasionally, there have been no fights. That's good, both because of my mild disposition, and because I don't have any logical arguments for any of this.
Keep laughing,
S
<--not laughing. 42aa :(
Quote from: Simone Louise on April 17, 2008, 10:17:29 PM
But what I'm growing is easy to get away with. I found a company online that sells 44-A bras, but I don't need one. Yes they are growing, but slowly, slowly. They only show under a tight shirt, and I have but a few of those. And people seem to see what they expect to see. So, for me, it's about how I feel more than how I present. While I get zingers from my wife occasionally, there have been no fights. That's good, both because of my mild disposition, and because I don't have any logical arguments for any of this.
Keep laughing,
S
I agree it is all about how you feel, nothing else. Even with the clothes it is not about how you present, but how they make you feel. Most of what I would wear would not be easily recognized as women's clothes. Like you said, people see what they want to see.
Easy to get away is a matter of perspective, I could do the blouse, but growing breasts is beyond my level of comfort. To me what you are doing is much more daring.
And I still say you have a hell of a wife.
Posted on: April 18, 2008, 12:57:22 AM
Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 07:16:08 PM
Yeah, I agree. I've been making slight changes for some time. I'm currently getting laser hair removal on my face. My eyebrows are pretty good at the moment, even my mum asked me to do hers the same. I've worn woman's shoes for a long time. Earrings, nail polish, feminine haircut, hair clips, socks. When I catalogue things in this way I can see how much I kind of deceived myself as to what I want. All these things do is just make it not so bad. It helped for awhile but I find I need more to keep at the same level of feeling comfortable. I'm actually not that concerned what others think and have never been that shy about expressing myself, except for with my wife, I'm going by her boundaries. My country thankfully seems more permissive than America and the law protects me in my job - it is hard to get fired here except for gross misconduct or total incompetence, you can't get fired just because someone does not like you.
Sorry, I forgot how much you have already done, I think you mentioned some of it before.
Sounds like you are running out of options and are going to have to make that decision soon.
I haven't really done anything. I think when I get some more money I might go on a shopping spree down the really cheap department store place and mix and match some lady and men's things. I would like some jeans with some sequinny things on the back pocket. I think I've got two buttonless blouses, but I thought they were just slightly more flamboyant shirts.
Quote from: Nero on April 17, 2008, 08:32:08 PM
Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
And I'm going to stop there instead of heading off on another tangent... :D
I hope not. You just said a lot of interesting things which naturally leads to my having more questions. :laugh:
hehe...should you be encouraging me to hijack threads? :laugh: I've been being so good, too... >:D
QuoteQuote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
As far as tomboys go, I think there are tomboys who are androgyne and tomboys who are binary and the same thing with femboys (reminds me of fembots...hehe), although boys are more pressured to 'be men!' Girls get bullied the same way, but it's different too. Girls are more psychological, I think. They don't always go for public humiliatiion.
Actually I always thought it the other way around. Boys go for the physical abuse, girls go for the public humiliation.
Well, that's what they did to me anyway.
Maybe there are no rules for bullying. I always thought girls were the type to whisper behind your back just loud enough for you to hear and they get people to stop being friends with you. Really, though, bullying isn't related to gender. It seems to happen to everyone. I wasn't bullied...as far as I know anyway, but I'm rather oblivious to what's going on around me. I could've been made fun of all my life and I never would have known. :-\ But then again, where I lived, we'd all known each other since kindergarten pretty much and I think it's harder to bully someone you've known your whole life and probably been friends with at some point. Even people who would have been easy targets were usually treated fairly well (not really befriended...but) by the popular kids. I think I was quite lucky to not have a lot of bullying around me (now if only the academic quality had been better...)
Quote
Quote from: Jaimey on April 17, 2008, 08:21:19 PM
And I've never suffered from that horrid infantilization of women.
Never heard of that before. What's the 'infantilization of women'?
That's when women act stupid around men or act weak. It's mostly done for attention and because "that's what men want". It's hard to describe. We watched a video in school once and this woman said something like, "I hope there's coffee" (very valley girl) when the speaker talked about getting up early and the speaker went off on her a bit about the infantilization of women. I wish I had a good example...poop. I can't think of any...dictionary.com defines it as
"to treat or regard as infantile or immature."
Quote from: sd on April 17, 2008, 04:37:10 PM
Quote from: NickSister on April 17, 2008, 04:16:37 PM
I'm a female androgyne in a male body....I think this is the closest to how I feel.
Welcome to the club.
The next question is, is it worth doing what needs to be done to achieve that or can you make yourself comfortable and work with what you have.
I believe I'm a male androgyne in a female body. Or at least, that's how it feels to me right now. Three weeks before the onslaught of male feelings, I had bought 3 bras and felt really comfortable in them. Gender-specific feelings are flying all over the place around here. Or perhaps I fit into the bi-gender area. Or tri-gender, since I do have androgyne feelings. Hmm.
Anyway, the question asked is a good one. I hope I can feel good about what I have right now with perhaps only some male clothing. But sometimes I am afraid I will need more than that.
Thoughtfully,
Jordan
yeah. it's not easy. I think some people think it's just a party for us.
Quote from: Zythyra on April 16, 2008, 01:22:29 PM
Although I currently dress as male, it's because of work, etc. In a perfect world, where one didn't have to fear for one's safety if they didn't conform to societal gender expression, I would choose to dress much more feminine, but without trying to pass as female.
Z
thats what I would love to do
dream -
female hair
breasts
beard
QuoteQuoteAnd I've never suffered from that horrid infantilization of women.
QuoteNever heard of that before. What's the 'infantilization of women'?
That's when women act stupid around men or act weak. It's mostly done for attention and because "that's what men want". It's hard to describe. We watched a video in school once and this woman said something like, "I hope there's coffee" (very valley girl) when the speaker talked about getting up early and the speaker went off on her a bit about the infantilization of women. I wish I had a good example...poop. I can't think of any...dictionary.com defines it as "to treat or regard as infantile or immature."
Right, well, I can't get the piccy thing to work :'(, so if you go to http://inventorspot.com/files/images/rush_1.img_assist_custom.jpg then you'll see the perfect example (we did it in English back in high school) - children and animals are often called "naughty", but I can't think of a single instance when a man has been dubbed "naughty". Bad, yes, but naughty? Can't use such an infantile word for a masculine man, now, can we? But for a *woman*... So yeah, anyway, this is meant to be advertising something that's more or less "fat free" - so why is the woman necessary? As a visual aid of what "a little bit naughty" could be. Not a child painting on walls, or a dog lifting its leg against a couch, or a man leaving Playboy magazines lying around his house for all to see. No, a woman with a tat :eusa_naughty:.
No offence to anyone out there, by the way. I just hate the use of sex (particularly of women) in advertising. Honestly! If I buy a sofa from a shop which advertises its couches with beautiful women sitting on them, do I get the model who advertised that couch? No! (And for that matter, if, for some reason, I went to buy some men's underwear, would I also get the guy who modelled it in the catalogue? Of course not! :icon_anger:)
But enough angry ranting from me. :P :eusa_silenced:
That is the weirdest faced woman I have seen for a long time, she actually does look like some breed of specialist posh dog...
there are historical examples of men being called naughty, but they date back to the days when naughty was a much stronger word, more like evil or wicked.
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 25, 2008, 10:56:14 AM
That is the weirdest faced woman I have seen for a long time, she actually does look like some breed of specialist posh dog...
there are historical examples of men being called naughty, but they date back to the days when naughty was a much stronger word, more like evil or wicked.
You're right...her face IS weird. It's just off, somehow. I can't place it.
Speaking of men and naughty, has anyone seen that episode of Courage the Cowardly Dog? With Fred the barber? hehehe...if you haven't, you should. The word 'naughty' will make you shudder. :D Maybe I can find it...I found it!!!
For your enjoyment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSoC1jhB19o
Actually, when I said "never heard of guys being referred to as naughty", I *did* think of the weird guy from Courage, but wasn't sure if it counted or not...should probably have known better, but hey, artistic licence... ;)
And the only reason I've remembered the weird guy since it was on eight or so years ago (my brother was watching and I was in the same room...) was his voice. One of the many reasons I've disliked being female for so long - no matter how low I can sing, I'll never have a voice like that. :'(
Not that it's stopped me from trying, mind you. Though it does make me feel a little bit......*naaauuuughtyyyyyyyyyyy*.
I definitely understand wanting a more masculine voice...but Freaky Fred's is not one I'd want... :laugh:
i have always felt that i was born into the wrong body and i denied being male for a very long time and some days i still do but people don't understand when i say I'm actually a girl i am just born into the wrong body
To me it is a concept that I do not understand, the more I read, the more I know I do NOT understand it. Can not. I think there is really nothing to understand, seems it just IS.
What ever one comes up with... it IS NOT... What I notice.
"What we don't feel - we don't understand"
Nice try though...
Axélle
PS: after all some things are just not to be understood, only to be felt...
This thread is older than me.
Quote from: Jamie D on May 21, 2012, 05:25:49 AM
This thread is older than me.
How lucky can you BE?! Spring-chicken, eh?
Axélle
Quote from: Pica Pica on April 16, 2008, 04:12:00 PM
How do you know? All these tomboys sitting around saying, 'I wish I were Rebis.'
It's funny actually, if I were born a female bodied androgyne I reckon I would have presented myself very girly and not a tom boy at all.
Actually that's quite an interesting question/problem. *If* an androgyne (had exactly the same brain development, etc which is highly unlikely, but just for the fun of it) were born the opposite assigned gender, presumably you would still be androgyne. If androgyne is actually a third (fourth, fifth, etc) gender.
I have another question, re: transgenders who choose to present androgynously? Is that person an androgyne?
--Jay Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on May 21, 2012, 07:11:10 PM
I have another question, re: transgenders who choose to present androgynously? Is that person an androgyne?
JayJay, I know I've told you before that I love your questions, but it's worth repeating. I love your questions.
There are dueling definitions of Androgyne. Susan says someone "Being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior". Genderwiki(http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Androgyne (http://gender.wikia.com/wiki/Androgyne)) says "An androgyne is a transgender individual who does not cleanly fit into binary male or female gender roles".
According to Susan's definition, a TG who presents androgynously would be an androgyne. According to genderwiki, maybe not, if he/she cleanly fit in one of the binary gender roles.
I like the genderwiki definition better (Sorry Susan. Your site is awesome in every other way...) By Susan's definition I'm not really an androgyne. I've never made any effort to present myself androgynously. I'd love to be treated androgynously (or better, I'd love to be treated as a woman, but that ain't happening). However, I don't want to confuse anyone or blow any binary circuits forcing them to try to categorize me. If you'd met me, you'd think I was just an ordinary man, a tad on the skinny side.
But I think I am an androgyne. By the genderwiki definition, I have male and female parts to my personality and therefore I wouldn't fit cleanly in either gender role. For what it's worth (not much actually), COGIATI and SAGE both classify me as an androgyne.
So I guess the answer to your question is that it depends on which definition you go with.
Quote from: agfrommd on May 21, 2012, 07:59:30 PM
So I guess the answer to your question is that it depends on which definition you go with.
Susan's definition looks more like a definition of androgynous than androgyne. It seems to be conflating gender and presentation.
Thanks agfrommd! :)
At the risk of answering my own question: it's not a choice. I didn't wake up one morning and think it would be a really cool thing to be an androgyne. OTOH, I have met (online nobody in RL) several FTMs that went thru a period of being androgyne or at least thinking they were.
Actually come to think of it, not sure to what extent "tomboy" or "femboy" is a choice. I'm wondering re: a spectrum that includes many people that don't clearly fit (since I don't buy into the binary anyway...) Though how much of this is all gender expression. We know just how silly all the gender stereotyping can be.
--Jay Jay
Quote from: aleon515 on May 21, 2012, 09:43:33 PM
it's not a choice. I didn't wake up one morning and think it would be a really cool thing to be an androgyne.
Yeah, I have the same experience. My non-binariness, whatever label you give it is who I am. It's me. It's not a choice. I've got no one else to be but me.
However, I'm experiencing the questions of how I present myself as a choice. Do I adopt an appearance that makes my gender hard to distinguish? (Probably won't work, a lot of trouble, and will confuse people). Do I crossdress now and then so I can experience being treated as a woman? (No, there too. Not honest, lots of trouble, wouldn't solve anything, but might be fun). By process of elimination, I'll probably end up presenting as a man with one or two feminine touches to my appearance to remind people I'm not male "all the way through".
i know boys who're much girlier than me and girls who are a lot more boyish than me.
but for some reason, i'm the one who's stuck in this odd androgyne place where i don't really know whether i'm both or none, while they manage to identify as the same gender as their birth sex.
i've no idea why, it's just the way it is. a femboy is a boy, just very feminine, a tomboy is a girl, just very boyish. and i can't find anywhere to fit in properly, i'm not a manly man or girly girl, neither am i a tomboy or femboy. though i do come off as a tomboy a lot of the time, since that is the closest i get to being all of me, or less of what i'm not. can't really be sure of which it is
As I see it, tomboys and femboys (which is a new word to me, and odd how it's asymmetrical) are simply people who disdain many of the typical standards of dress and behavior for their gender, but they don't really question their gender much.
It is simpler for society to understand them, because almost everyone understands rebellion against pointless restrictions, and it doesn't defy the gender binary.
While I like some things that are considered femimine, I am not girly... in fact I resent being seen as "sissy" or effeminate, while at the same time really not being manly in most aspects.
Quote from: foosnark on May 29, 2012, 01:13:50 PM
I am not girly... in fact I resent being seen as "sissy" or effeminate, while at the same time really not being manly in most aspects.
Interesting. For me it's more like a habit, like learning not to touch hot things by being burned too many times. It's ingrained not to act effeminate at the risk of being ribbed about it.
If someone called me a sissy, I'd like to think I'd fire back something like "Something wrong with that?"
But secretly, I might take it as a compliment.
A more historically correct term for the male version of a 'Tomboy' would be a 'Mollygirl'. As Tom was eighteenth century slang for lesbian and Molly for gay man.
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 02, 2012, 06:51:28 PM
A more historically correct term for the male version of a 'Tomboy' would be a 'Mollygirl'. As Tom was eighteenth century slang for lesbian and Molly for gay man.
Pica,
Thanks for this historical perspective!
Z is definitely a bit of a Mollygirl ;D
Z
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 02, 2012, 06:51:28 PM
A more historically correct term for the male version of a 'Tomboy' would be a 'Mollygirl'. As Tom was eighteenth century slang for lesbian and Molly for gay man.
i think i can finally be a girl after all
mollygirl doesn't sound half as awkward as real girl for this side to my personality
Quote from: Pica Pica on June 02, 2012, 06:51:28 PM
A more historically correct term for the male version of a 'Tomboy' would be a 'Mollygirl'. As Tom was eighteenth century slang for lesbian and Molly for gay man.
I'm sure I've heard that somewhere before but I can't remember when or where. Thank you for the reminder! I love them.
I've been both a mollygirl and a tomboy. I wonder how many folks can say that. ;)
Quote from: Taka on June 03, 2012, 03:32:49 PM
i think i can finally be a girl after all
mollygirl doesn't sound half as awkward as real girl for this side to my personality
That's pretty much how I feel about being a tomboy.
Quote from: Sarah7 on June 03, 2012, 05:05:35 PM
I've been both a mollygirl and a tomboy. I wonder how many folks can say that. ;)
I aspire to all ;D
Z
If someone is both tomboy and mollygirl, does that make them... a tamale?
...and the topic just keeps on getting dug up again :).
Sorry, I got pointed here from the Androgyne Introductions topic, and I've just been catching up with all this (fascinating reading, I don't know how I missed this before).
I think about all this a lot. There's sex, and there's gender. I got landed with the wrong sex, by accident - male body - and I'm resolving that by transitioning. So I'm female. But am I a woman? I'm not sure, and I'm encouraged to be not sure by both mainstream society, and by mainstream trans women where I live. This is because the Norm Definition of Woman is something I'm not, and don't want to be, and don't want to be seen as - which is very predominantly feminine.
So some of the time, I'm content calling myself a Trans Tomboy, because when I say that to most people, they get a much more accurate picture in their heads of what I am than if I just say Trans Woman. But then reading the above discussion, I'm probably more androgyne than woman when it comes to gender identity. Or... am I just a very genderqueer woman? :)
Hahahaha, it actually made me laugh, pretending these labels are actual discrete things with sharp borders between them - they're just words to try to describe (and delineate) something that's very subjective and impressionistic.
Anyway, today at least, I don't identify as a woman, but I do identify as female. So I guess I'm an androgyne female who likes calling herself a tomboy, a dyke, because those labels are the closest approximation to what I am that are in widespread usage. The way I choose to present myself gets called "butch" sometimes (in the context of people thinking of me as a woman) - back when I was a teenage "boy" and dressed exactly the same way, I got labelled "effeminate". Still, I feel more comfortable knowing my clothes are technically "women's clothes", because they're built to fit my budding new body-shape. But they're fairly blokey for women's clothes! It's all so up for grabs!!
I think something that's sort of confounding tomboy and mollygirl is that the "new normal" for girls is not exceedingly feminine. What I think gets labeled "tomboy" ends up being a smaller shift from the norm for girls/women than what a "mollygirl" or "femboy" is for boys/men.
Put another way, if each person is regarded as having femininity + masculinity = 100, it might be something where the average woman is around 55 on the femininity scale, with a "tomboy" clocking in around 25. Meanwhile the average man is clocking a femininity score around 15, but a mollygirl/femboy hitting a femininity score of 75. This is not only a larger shift (60 points instead of 30), but this direction is a much greater taboo.
By these constructs, it's not really unreasonable for an androgynous woman to take on a label like tomboy, because relative to what is normal for men and women, it's more or less a fairly androgynous result. Femboys are... not so much.
As you said, these are all arbitrary distinctions, but I think the skewed symmetry gives a different picture for tomboy and for femboy.
Quote from: Kaelin on November 03, 2012, 04:47:07 AM
As you said, these are all arbitrary distinctions, but I think the skewed symmetry gives a different picture for tomboy and for femboy.
I agree. The concepts of tomboy and femboy can't really be analogous, because within the culture they're being used (let's assume femboy is being used, for the sake of argument :)), the ground rules are very different for men and women.
It fascinates me that "metrosexual" got coined as a way to distinguish a man who's not feminine/effeminate/queer but who likes to take care of his appearance, in a particular way. This seems a covert way of saying "a metrosexual man has a different acceptability rating as a man from one who is feminine/effeminate/queer". Creepy.
I have a straight cis woman friend who's middle-aged, who is a tomboy. She constantly has people assume she's (a) younger than she is, and (b) queer. Because grownup, straight women don't dress like that, dear ::).
It's sort of like how stars' gravities affect each other - the gravity wells of cultural expectations around men/women pull us androgyne folk willy-nilly into positions and presentations that are different from the ones we might otherwise choose, in order for each of us to maintain a stable orbit. Or something. That made more sense in my head.
I like that description.
Of course that could also mean that androgynes are eccentric in the original astronomical sense, which is very tidy.
Also gives and excuse for posting
Zappa Excentrifugal Forz Awesome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odSO4yAQgXk#)
i think some of it is how the person feels comfortable presenting to the world. when the gender identity is closer to the center of the gender spectrum then the need to show full gender expression is not as great as a person who is higher up each path of gender error. is a cis woman who presents as a male the same as a trans woman presenting as a tomboy? dont forget there are at least 2 things to consider there is the gender identity side, roughly put how you feel your body should be, and then there is the gender presentation, how you like to be seen. the two can conflict in some and make the understanding of where u fit in confusing. the more to the middle of the spectrum you are the more u tend to identify with terms like tomboy or femboy. gender identity can be a thing you can alter ie srs for a transwoman but choose not to show to a level where people notice. maybe one day it will be acceptable for a man to say he wants female body but not present as wholly female and be accepted on gender treatment. but thats a whole new topic ;D
Quote from: Padma on November 03, 2012, 06:24:42 AM
It's sort of like how stars' gravities affect each other - the gravity wells of cultural expectations around men/women pull us androgyne folk willy-nilly into positions and presentations that are different from the ones we might otherwise choose, in order for each of us to maintain a stable orbit. Or something. That made more sense in my head.
Makes sense to me. We are not a problem, the only problem is binaries who try to define something they can't perceive.
We are a problem to ourselves when we try to have labels that satisfy the perceptions of binaries.
Percentages or scores do nothing to define a gender.
You could have a very small percentage or score and find that a small part of you is as strong or stronger than the rest of your score.
It's difficult to define non-binaries with terms and definitions that come from a binary world.
I think that in doing so, it is to satisfy binaries, not ourselves.
To much of it is based on presentation, androgyous explanations.
There are many things that define female and male.
If you think about it, you are using many of those same things. Just in a different way.
Female and male are not anymore exclusive than whatever combination you are.
Binary terms are used, as they are able to use a cloud of combinations to define themselves, just as we do, but there is a tendency to dismiss anything other than those combinations.
They want it to be more exclusive, and why not?...they are the assumed majority, and binary speak is the language that is used.
As difficult as it is to use pronouns that they have never used, so are the terms and definitions that come with them.
We run into the same problems with this, except it is from a different perspective.
Like some places you may travel to, explaining it is often left at, 'You would of had to have been there.'
But there are more and more people who are able to understand that it is something.
But to understand it, you had to have been there.
That's the acceptance of those kind of definitions.
In looking for definitions we are really just looking for the words of acceptance.
As for 'Mollygirl',...
Female mules are referred to as Molly's.
From wikiwhatever,
A female mule that has estrus cycles and thus, in theory, could carry a fetus, is called a "molly" or "Molly mule," though the term is sometimes used to refer to female mules in general. Pregnancy is rare, but can occasionally occur naturally as well as through embryo transfer. One of several terms for a gelded mule is a "John mule."This is what I think of when I hear Mollygirl.
Molly as a mule is a reference that I am used to.
But I do like the sound of it, as I do Tomboy.
My feelings about myself are not unlike Padma, Shantel and Z.
My definition of myself, I simply leave it as 'Me'.
Ativan
As I mentioned in another topic, Molly and Queen are terms for fertile female cats, before and after they've had kittens respectively. And Tom is a fertile male cat. And Molly/Queen & Tom are all old terms for male and female prostitutes/homosexuals (as Pica pointed out).
Which somehow (in my mind) links up with the general public's tendency to associate non-conforming gender/sexuality with sexual promiscuity/predation - which is a cultural myth I've never understood. We live in a weird world, with weird people. It's a good thing we're weird.
"wants female body but not present as wholly female"
This phrase really struck a chord in me. I don't mind dressing male or being perceived as male, but my body really needs to be as feminine as I can get it.
Thanks to hormones I'm more than halfway there, with "T & A" and really nice legs.
It's hard to describe how I feel when I put a man's suit on over my feminized, but originally male body. I'm aware that I'm "crossdressing" but it feels OK.
Can you get more genderqueer than this: I feel like an FTM transsexual in a man's body.
Randi
Quote from: SUMMERWINE on November 03, 2012, 10:43:04 AM
dont forget there are at least 2 things to consider there is the gender identity side, roughly put how you feel your body should be, and then there is the gender presentation, how you like to be seen. the two can conflict in some and make the understanding of where u fit in confusing. the more to the middle of the spectrum you are the more u tend to identify with terms like tomboy or femboy. gender identity can be a thing you can alter ie srs for a transwoman but choose not to show to a level where people notice. maybe one day it will be acceptable for a man to say he wants female body but not present as wholly female and be accepted on gender treatment. but thats a whole new topic ;D
i think im a transgendered transgender lol.
Quote from: Padma on November 03, 2012, 04:02:05 AM
I don't identify as a woman, but I do identify as female.
Quote from: Randi on November 03, 2012, 12:54:02 PM
This phrase really struck a chord in me. I don't mind dressing male or being perceived as male, but my body really needs to be as feminine as I can get it.
Oh hey, we should start a club.
I use tomboy because it's... less work? And I don't like talking about my gender (or lack thereof) much with cis people (or binary trans people). Tomboy sort of... categorizes me for them so they don't want more information. It's more of a description than an identity I guess.
Quote from: Kaelin on November 03, 2012, 04:47:07 AM
Put another way, if each person is regarded as having femininity + masculinity = 100, it might be something where the average woman is around 55 on the femininity scale, with a "tomboy" clocking in around 25. Meanwhile the average man is clocking a femininity score around 15, but a mollygirl/femboy hitting a femininity score of 75. This is not only a larger shift (60 points instead of 30), but this direction is a much greater taboo.
Meh. I get perceived as an androgynous lesbian most of the time (like very far into tomboy range) or a super femme-y gay boy occasionally. Wearing the same clothes. The scale is screwed, man. Totally screwed.
Quote from: Sarah7 on November 03, 2012, 01:28:25 PM
Oh hey, we should start a club.
I use tomboy because it's... less work? And I don't like talking about my gender (or lack thereof) much with cis people (or binary trans people). Tomboy sort of... categorizes me for them so they don't want more information. It's more of a description than an identity I guess.
Meh. I get perceived as an androgynous lesbian most of the time (like very far into tomboy range) or a super femme-y gay boy occasionally. Wearing the same clothes. The scale is screwed, man. Totally screwed.
lol that always struck me as hilarious, that butch girl and pretty gay boy were so removed yet really close on the identifying scale :D
In the end, that's why I feel comfortable going back to ideas like "male androgyne" or "gender nonconformist" or "nonconformist." I don't think they're so specific that they expect a certain presentation, just that I may fall outside the male norm.
Quote from: Randi on November 03, 2012, 12:54:02 PM
Can you get more genderqueer than this: I feel like an FTM transsexual in a man's body.
Oh, snappy-snap snap!
The more I feminise, the more dressing "butch" feels right (button-down shirts and waistcoats are making their way into my wardrobe right now). And it's very likely that after surgery, I'm going to want to pack sometimes :). And reading lots of YA LGBT fiction, it's the FTM's I really identify with (because to a woman, all the MTF's in the stories want to be as girly as possible).
Go, us ;D.
Quote from: Ave on November 03, 2012, 01:41:07 PM
lol that always struck me as hilarious, that butch girl and pretty gay boy were so removed yet really close on the identifying scale :D
It's interesting getting checked out by gay guys and gay girls.
"Tomboy" was the cover story my parents used to explain me to others as a child. "I'm not a female, but I play one on t.v." pretty much sums up a chunk of my life. How I personally would describe myself is an androgynous male, with some female body parts. I kinda wish I could be one of the "neither" gender people, but I've always been male. I've only known female in the peculiar way that a method actor can learn to be a character (hence the tv quote). But at the end of the day, "being" female is just an acting role. I've had the unique experience in that I know exactly how females are treated by society as a whole and all that, but have never felt female myself. I've always felt like an outsider intruding into that female world in a stealthy fashion. If that makes sense at all. The last several years I've just been being myself rather than trying to "fit in" to any kind of female role. So much so that when people address me in a female fashion out and about I often don't even respond. "Ma'am? Who? Me?"
Quote from: Randi on November 03, 2012, 12:54:02 PM
Can you get more genderqueer than this: I feel like an FTM transsexual in a man's body.
a notorious male crossdresser in a female body?
mom calls me tomboy, and has somehow realized that the style suits me, even my personality. but she tends to always want me to dress girlier since that suits me too (and is much more conforming, so she wouldn't have to worry about me (for all the wrong reasons..)) i love my feminine clothes, they look good on me, but i still feel like i'm dressing up in a somewhat unnatural way.
i too have problems identifying as female even in female clothing. people call me some term that is generally only directed at women, and i totally don't get they're talking to me. i have a child, but no idea what it means to be a "mother", the best i can do is "parent". big sister is something different, it's something i've gotten so used to being that i can't really stop doing it, while mixing in some hopeless big brothering once in a while.
Quote from: Sarah7 on November 03, 2012, 02:16:01 PM
It's interesting getting checked out by gay guys and gay girls.
Indeed. In the past year, I was only checked out by gay guys. Today they both do. I should post a current photo :)
Quote from: Ave on November 03, 2012, 01:41:07 PM
lol that always struck me as hilarious, that butch girl and pretty gay boy were so removed yet really close on the identifying scale :D
That is funny for me, too. I definitely feel more like a femboy or a pretty gay boy. Well, I do mess around with very masculine-identified females, too, but never feminine girls. So when lately people think of me as a butch lesbian, it makes me feel funny.
I'm seriously feminine but I don't feel I have much of a girl inside of me. The girl is on the outside and it has been a mask for me to wear for the past 13 years; surely it has left many traits in me, but mainly it has been just a mask I was stuck in until I realized I really can do something to be happier about myself.
I do sometimes get excited about dressing very girly and passing as a sexy girl, but everything sexual about being perceived as a female is something I have to construct by using stuff that cross-dressers/drag queens do to get there. I do enjoy that, I know... I have since I started my female teen age. But it's occasional arousal and excitement, not identity, and more like a dirty secret. When I just want to be "me", not some femme fatale character, I hate it when I get confused with a girl.
Being perceived as a femboy is something I strongly wish for. I'd like to wake up in the morning and just feel my body looks like I'm a femboy and I don't have breasts or fat in the feminine parts of my body. It doesn't feel like a fetish (unlike the "cross-dressing" as a female sometimes does ::) ) I like men and feel attracted to them, I just hate it that they so often like me because I'm soft or I have a girly butt or tits (ugh how I hate to hear those "compliments"). So therefore I haven't messed around with boys lately. At least not cis boys. Trans masculine people seem to handle this better.
But yea, in the end I feel like I'm a femboy who's pretty pansexual and wants to be clean and pretty and have pretty things around me and eyeliner and glitter on me when I go party. ::) Therefore it's funny that I usually get categorized into being a butch or a tomboy. Hopefully doing some hormone replacement therapy will help with that, as well as getting rid of the very feminizing red hair color that I've had for several years (not that I was compensating my lacking femaleness or anything with that or anything else... :P)
Quote from: Taka on November 04, 2012, 09:42:20 AM
a notorious male crossdresser in a female body?
mom calls me tomboy, and has somehow realized that the style suits me, even my personality. but she tends to always want me to dress girlier since that suits me too (and is much more conforming, so she wouldn't have to worry about me (for all the wrong reasons..)) i love my feminine clothes, they look good on me, but i still feel like i'm dressing up in a somewhat unnatural way.
i too have problems identifying as female even in female clothing. people call me some term that is generally only directed at women, and i totally don't get they're talking to me. i have a child, but no idea what it means to be a "mother", the best i can do is "parent". big sister is something different, it's something i've gotten so used to being that i can't really stop doing it, while mixing in some hopeless big brothering once in a while.
I agree with you Taka. My mom basically calls me tomboy, although it's more of "you're really tough, but you are also really sweet." And she thinks that I look cuter with a shoulder-length hairstyle. Which I haven't had since the beginning of high school since I really don't want to look cute (and I didn't like the length anyway). I do like my more feminine clothes, but I hardly ever wear them because I either feel not comfortable or I'm lazy. There was that one time when I put on a black with white poka-dot woman dress, and my dad was shocked at how grownup I looked.
In more recent developments, a guy in my section was irritated that the men had to wear tuxes while the woman wore not flashy, black nice looking shirts and slacks or skirts. And I wanted to wear a tux. I said that we should all just wear tuxes and he disagreed saying that it'd look weird. He'd rather have the women wear those really long concert dresses (that look ugly, are heavy, and gross-feeling). One of my other friends said that he'd wear a skirt if he was in band. Or a kilt.
And so, out of necessity, the 'Tux Dress' was invented... ;D
A Tux!Dress would be nice. Maybe like the old bloomer costume. Or Dr. Mary Edwards Walker from the Civil War. (Forgive me while I temporarily hijack this thread for history). Dr. Walker was one of the earliest woman surgeons in the U.S, and is the only woman to be awarded the Medal of Honor. She also wore a mixture of the bloomer costume and men's attire when she was younger, but as she aged, she donned a man's suit, top hat, and all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Edwards_Walker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Edwards_Walker) (pictures of both feminine and masculine attire).
I don't know if she would qualify as androgyne, because she might have just adopted the wardrobe for functionality.