I meet with the Vice-president of the University on Thursday. She was very nice as we sat down and talked about some of the things I was having trouble with on campus. One of these was the bathroom situation, and some others were the name the professors would see. (Student employee info precedes registry info in the computer. i.e. I can't use my female name as long as I work for the university, until it gets changed of course)
Afterwards I realized she had asked a question that I had, at the time, not been able to fully answer. She asked me why that these things should be so important that the school should intervene. Especially in the case of the bathroom situation.
Now I understand that it is in reality a big deal to get official permission, especially in this state, to use the opposite sex bathroom on private grounds. But I feel my answer on my follow up visit to her in a week should be more like this.
"The reason it is so important is because of why it is important to transition. We can't just live as woman or men because society views our old bodies in such a way that that is impossible. So we try to change our bodies is such a way that it matches more our, and in a way society's, standards. Using the opposite sex bathroom is seen as a mile-mark kind of achievement. Same as being able to use ones name that fits his/her body.
Transsexualism to me is like a second puberty, with me moving on to be a normal ordinary (as possible) woman. So being forced to use only unisex bathrooms when I had been using the woman's all year is not only a regression, but feels like a limbo. I wish to live as ordinary a life as someone like me can get."
What do you think of my future response? What about the question itself?
personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone. there will come a point when you simply cannot use the men's restroom. period. and there will be many points along the way, in the beginning, where you will not be at all welcome in the women's restroom.
-Ellie
Quote from: ell on June 07, 2008, 11:07:32 AM
personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone.
I agree...
Maybe something like,
"I'm seeking to live as ordinary a life as possible, so using the opposite sex bathroom is as much a necessity as adopting a gender-appropriate name."
A "requirement" rather than a "goal" or milestone?
~Kate~
One thing perhaps worth a thought or two is that some therapists consider RLE (which in some cases is shorthand for 'living full-time before SRS') as a test of sorts, where you are to prove -- either to the therapist or to yourself -- that this is what you really want to do for the rest of your life. If that is the case, the test ought to be as fair as possible, and this includes being able to live consistently in your target gender, without having to revert in order to visit a bathroom or talk to a professor.
Nfr
Quote from: ell on June 07, 2008, 11:07:32 AM
personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone. there will come a point when you simply cannot use the men's restroom. period. and there will be many points along the way, in the beginning, where you will not be at all welcome in the women's restroom.
-Ellie
I would point out that there is also a point when you
must take using the women's restroom for granted, whether you are welcome or not. You can't avoid it simply out of fear. There is a simple rule: If you act like you belong where you are, nobody will question you.
My dear, I really should have drug you into more restrooms when you were here.
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 07, 2008, 11:42:13 AM
Quote from: ell on June 07, 2008, 11:07:32 AM
personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone. there will come a point when you simply cannot use the men's restroom. period. and there will be many points along the way, in the beginning, where you will not be at all welcome in the women's restroom.
-Ellie
I would point out that there is also a point when you must take using the women's restroom for granted, whether you are welcome or not. You can't avoid it simply out of fear. There is a simple rule: If you act like you belong where you are, nobody will question you.
My dear, I really should have drug you into more restrooms when you were here.
Actually it was because of my female friends that I was using the woman's restroom myself. They did literally drag me into the bathroom. ;) :D I guess I did take my passing for granted, and having this thrown in my face has shaken my self confidence somewhat.
Now it probably would be a very big shock to men for me to use their restroom. I made a joke of it at work and some of the guys almost flipped. They did not want a
woman using the men's locker room. It also would put me in greater danger to do so as well, though from the waist up I think i'm rather decent. But for now i'm having to change in a unisex bathroom or at home, as I can't use either locker room, boss's orders.
So do you think this argument might be convincing to a University?
Quote from: Angel on June 07, 2008, 04:10:57 PM
Quote from: Lisbeth on June 07, 2008, 11:42:13 AM
Quote from: ell on June 07, 2008, 11:07:32 AM
personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone. there will come a point when you simply cannot use the men's restroom. period. and there will be many points along the way, in the beginning, where you will not be at all welcome in the women's restroom.
-Ellie
I would point out that there is also a point when you must take using the women's restroom for granted, whether you are welcome or not. You can't avoid it simply out of fear. There is a simple rule: If you act like you belong where you are, nobody will question you.
My dear, I really should have drug you into more restrooms when you were here.
Actually it was because of my female friends that I was using the woman's restroom myself. They did literally drag me into the bathroom. ;) :D I guess I did take my passing for granted, and having this thrown in my face has shaken my self confidence somewhat.
Now it probably would be a very big shock to men for me to use their restroom. I made a joke of it at work and some of the guys almost flipped. They did not want a woman using the men's locker room. It also would put me in greater danger to do so as well, though from the waist up I think i'm rather decent. But for now i'm having to change in a unisex bathroom or at home, as I can't use either locker room, boss's orders.
So do you think this argument might be convincing to a University?
if you're already passing as a woman, i don't understand why the issue has even come up, unless the school has forbidden you to use gender-appropriate restrooms. have they? i think you definitely need to talk to other Trans women in your area to help you get past some of these hurdles.
and what is your gender therapist saying about all this? she should also be helping you with these things.
-Ell
She asked me why that these things should be so important that the school should intervene
Wow, spoken like a true bureaucrat, no wonder she is the VP.
Quote from: ell on June 07, 2008, 05:06:30 PM
if you're already passing as a woman, i don't understand why the issue has even come up, unless the school has forbidden you to use gender-appropriate restrooms. have they? i think you definitely need to talk to other Trans women in your area to help you get past some of these hurdles.
and what is your gender therapist saying about all this? she should also be helping you with these things.
-Ell
The issue came up after I reported that there was a rumor going around about me being a boy. That itself didn't bother me, but the 'someone' who was going to 'deal' with me was. After reporting this, all of the sudden I was barred from using the woman's locker room and restroom as there was an 'agreement' already that I was only going to use the unisex bathrooms.
Supposedly this agreement was made after a meeting between me and the student dean and related faculty. I recall that the agreement was to wait until we saw how well I was accepted and then return to the issue. But the dean and resident life faculty back up their story, and their 'memory' trumps mine.
The VP said she would look into it, and I hope that she is as nice and caring as everyone keep saying she is. She also said that even if the decision was against me, that it didn't necessarily need to be final. Then she gave me the standard "i'm impressed by your strength to make this decision and see it through." II hate canned responses like that.
As for my therapist, unfortunately since i'm not taking a summer course I really have no one to talk to but the consolers, who can't do much. This means ultimately i'm bouncing around docs at the moment.
I'm sorry this is happening to you Angel. When a rumour starts and makes its way to the authorities that can bar you, that is a shame. Do you think this is the situation to ask for a 'carry letter' as mentioned in another thread? :)
Quote from: buttercup on June 07, 2008, 08:59:45 PM
I'm sorry this is happening to you Angel. When a rumour starts and makes its way to the authorities that can bar you, that is a shame. Do you think this is the situation to ask for a 'carry letter' as mentioned in another thread? :)
Far as I understand it, a carry letter is only as good as people are understanding about the situation. It holds no legal weight.
Quote from: Angel on June 07, 2008, 10:30:35 PM
Far as I understand it, a carry letter is only as good as people are understanding about the situation. It holds no legal weight.
You are correct.
Well things are getting complicated. For at least the rest of the summer i'm restricted to using the unisex restrooms. The decision was given to me by the VP that 'for the near future' this is how it should work.
Currently i'm extremely PO'd but trying to remain calm. The fact that she didn't seem to listen to my objections about the issue made it only worse. It didn't help that all of this was given over the phone.
So now i'm spending the majority of my summer days at a job that seems to be hell bent on denying my femininity. First it was the bathrooms, then the earrings, next the nail polish, and now the stone pendent I wear for religious reasons today. Never mind that i've seen other women wearing the very things i'm denied, and all i'm told when I point this out is that I must rat them out. Great, now i'm doing my boss's job. >:(
Probably the worse thing was that since I was planning to go swimming in the school's gym, i've been given a conundrum. TO get to the pool you must go through one of the locker rooms. I can't use the men's as that would simply out me, I can't use the woman's or rik administrative punishment. So what then?
Does anyone have any ideas on what might help?
Quote from: Angel on June 10, 2008, 02:23:40 AM
Does anyone have any ideas on what might help?
Sic the Human-Rights-Council on them ... oh hang on. They'd probably side with the administration against you.
Seriously though, get some muscle behind your case. At the moment, you are just a lone voice dependant on their whims, basically. As soon as you get somebody official-sounding behind you, you are more able to negotiate from a position of strength.
Good luck Angel honey.
~Simone.
Quote from: lady amarant on June 10, 2008, 07:13:20 AM
Seriously though, get some muscle behind your case. At the moment, you are just a lone voice dependant on their whims, basically. As soon as you get somebody official-sounding behind you, you are more able to negotiate from a position of strength.
Good luck Angel honey.
~Simone.
Also, how is anyone going to know which bathroom you use or which locker room? Does everyone on campus know your status? Is someone going to follow you around to make sure you don't use the *wrong* facilities? How are they going to enforce this? Just curious...are they going to plaster your face all over the women's rooms with a note to call the administration if you show up?
Honestly...
Jay, the rebel...
Quote from: Angel on June 10, 2008, 02:23:40 AM
Probably the worse thing was that since I was planning to go swimming in the school's gym, i've been given a conundrum. TO get to the pool you must go through one of the locker rooms. I can't use the men's as that would simply out me, I can't use the woman's or rik administrative punishment. So what then?
I struggled with that for years at the public pool. I couldn't turn left or right. Went on for a couple of years. Until my youngest (11 at the time) told me to just buck up and go through the women's side. She asked pointedly, "Your name is Lisbeth, isn't it?"
Quote from: Angel on June 10, 2008, 02:23:40 AM
Probably the worse thing was that since I was planning to go swimming in the school's gym, i've been given a conundrum. TO get to the pool you must go through one of the locker rooms. I can't use the men's as that would simply out me, I can't use the woman's or rik administrative punishment. So what then?
Does anyone have any ideas on what might help?
Don your bathing suit at home with a nice wrap-skirt or cover-up. Take a towel with you and go swimming.
When you're done, dry-off on the pool deck, don the cover-up or wrap skirt and leave. That's what most of us do at the beach anyway.
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on June 10, 2008, 08:27:05 AM
Don your bathing suit at home with a nice wrap-skirt or cover-up. Take a towel with you and go swimming.
When you're done, dry-off on the pool deck, don the cover-up or wrap skirt and leave. That's what most of us do at the beach anyway.
If I've understood her correctly then that's exactly what she cannot do because the only way to the pool is through one of the locker rooms. I could very well imagine that I've already seen various pool areas like that. It's the same with our gym hall at school (even if we got no pool ;)) even the teachers have to either go through the boys' or the girls' locker room.
Quote from: Angel on June 10, 2008, 02:23:40 AM
Well things are getting complicated. For at least the rest of the summer i'm restricted to using the unisex restrooms. The decision was given to me by the VP that 'for the near future' this is how it should work.
Currently i'm extremely PO'd but trying to remain calm. The fact that she didn't seem to listen to my objections about the issue made it only worse. It didn't help that all of this was given over the phone.
So now i'm spending the majority of my summer days at a job that seems to be hell bent on denying my femininity. First it was the bathrooms, then the earrings, next the nail polish, and now the stone pendent I wear for religious reasons today. Never mind that i've seen other women wearing the very things i'm denied, and all i'm told when I point this out is that I must rat them out. Great, now i'm doing my boss's job. >:(
Probably the worse thing was that since I was planning to go swimming in the school's gym, i've been given a conundrum. TO get to the pool you must go through one of the locker rooms. I can't use the men's as that would simply out me, I can't use the woman's or rik administrative punishment. So what then?
Does anyone have any ideas on what might help?
The first advice, is, don't get PO'd. whatever happens, don't allow your emotions to get tied up with someone else's actions. if you can't swim, well, there are many other ways to get good exercise.
and um, may i ask if you are in the US? because if you are, people are denying your Constitutional rights at your job. don't get pissed! but there is no law against wearing nail polish. you need to contact the GLBT law center near you, and the ACLU.
-Ellie
Quote from: Elincubus on June 10, 2008, 08:38:06 AM
Quote from: Nichole on June 10, 2008, 08:27:05 AM
Don your bathing suit at home with a nice wrap-skirt or cover-up. Take a towel with you and go swimming.
When you're done, dry-off on the pool deck, don the cover-up or wrap skirt and leave. That's what most of us do at the beach anyway.
If I've understood her correctly then that's exactly what she cannot do because the only way to the pool is through one of the locker rooms. I could very well imagine that I've already seen various pool areas like that. It's the same with our gym hall at school (even if we got no pool ;)) even the teachers have to either go through the boys' or the girls' locker room.
O, OK. The four universities I've attended and am used to swimming at haven't had the locker-room only access to the pools. My bad.
N~
Quote from: Elincubus on June 10, 2008, 08:38:06 AM
Quote from: Nichole on June 10, 2008, 08:27:05 AM
Don your bathing suit at home with a nice wrap-skirt or cover-up. Take a towel with you and go swimming.
When you're done, dry-off on the pool deck, don the cover-up or wrap skirt and leave. That's what most of us do at the beach anyway.
If I've understood her correctly then that's exactly what she cannot do because the only way to the pool is through one of the locker rooms. I could very well imagine that I've already seen various pool areas like that. It's the same with our gym hall at school (even if we got no pool ;)) even the teachers have to either go through the boys' or the girls' locker room.
Right, but if she's dressed in a women's suit with a skirt wrap, who is going to think there is something wrong with her walking through the women's locker room on the way to the pool? I'm sure she'd cause a scene walking through the men's locker room like that.
I guess I want to know how many bathroom police they have at this university. I also have no patience for those with zero common sense and a penchant for overzealous application of arbitrary rules... ::)
Jay
That was my thought as well, Jay. But, seemed easier just to say 'ok.' ...
So, Jay and I wanna know :laugh: :laugh: what WOULD prevent you from walking through the women's locker-room to the pool dressed that way, Angel? :)
Nichole
Quote from: sneakersjay on June 10, 2008, 10:16:17 AM
I guess I want to know how many bathroom police they have at this university. I also have no patience for those with zero common sense and a penchant for overzealous application of arbitrary rules... ::)
True, true...
But I've got a question since I don't really know about this legal stuff (even less in a completely different country). Is it really illegal to enter bath room of the opposite sex? I mean what would happen if some regular guy goes to the ladys room or some woman to the men's? Would there be like legal consequences of any kind or only if somebody else (whose gender matches the restroom) complains?
Quote from: Elincubus on June 10, 2008, 10:56:43 AM
Quote from: sneakersjay on June 10, 2008, 10:16:17 AM
I guess I want to know how many bathroom police they have at this university. I also have no patience for those with zero common sense and a penchant for overzealous application of arbitrary rules... ::)
True, true...
But I've got a question since I don't really know about this legal stuff (even less in a completely different country). Is it really illegal to enter bath room of the opposite sex? I mean what would happen if some regular guy goes to the ladys room or some woman to the men's? Would there be like legal consequences of any kind or only if somebody else (whose gender matches the restroom) complains?
Actually, it happens allatime, I imagine. People go into the 'wrong' door and either realize their mistake and leave or don't and use that room, puzzled, perhaps, why it doesn't 'look' like 'their' restroom.
And then there are more frequent instances in public places of huge lines for the women's and some or a few women going into the men's because there's 'no wait.'
As far as I have ever heard, no one has ever been arrested or ticketed for those things.
However, due to the major 'thing' being made currently by the 'irrelegious right' over bathrooms people might be a bit more sensitive to it in some locations now than in others. I dunno. I seem to live in an 'others' place. Haven't got much play around here about the bathroom invasions of sexual predators!
Nichole
Quote from: Nichole on June 10, 2008, 10:55:25 AM
That was my thought as well, Jay. But, seemed easier just to say 'ok.' ...
So, Jay and I wanna know :laugh: :laugh: what WOULD prevent you from walking through the women's locker-room to the pool dressed that way, Angel? :)
Nichole
This is going to come up this summer when I go to this particular campground that has pool access this same way: no access except via male or female locker rooms. Should I go through the ladies locker room with my daughter and niece, though I'll be dressed in men's swim trunks and rash guard and a prosthetic penis, or do I traverse the men's locker room, knowing I probably don't pass 100%? Though I figure the obligatory leak at the urinal might erase all doubts about my manhood...
Seriously, in my entire life as a bio-female using female facilities I don't think I ever paid too much attention to the other patrons, meaning if at first glance they looked female, they were female. I'm sure over the years I've encountered many transwomen in the bathrooms and never knew...I'm not of the habit of scrutinizing other people waiting for a stall. In this day and age of many androgynous-looking people, I don't really give it a thought.
On the other hand, this campground trip will likely be my first initiation into the men's room, and most likely I'll just walk on through like I belong there and emerge from the other side. The leak thing is in my dreams, though I hope it to be a reality, since my um, more permanent anatomy should arrive next week...
Now to make sure my daughter doesn't scream MOM!! as I enter the men's room...
Jay
@Nichole
That's pretty much how I thought, but then I don't really understand why Angel (and sure lots of other girls) even have to talk to people like this. Or are there special rules in school or something? I mean on a big campus it's not as if everybody knows each other like it might be in a high school or something.
Quote from: Elincubus on June 10, 2008, 11:34:48 AM
@Nichole
That's pretty much how I thought, but then I don't really understand why Angel (and sure lots of other girls) even have to talk to people like this. Or are there special rules in school or something? I mean on a big campus it's not as if everybody knows each other like it might be in a high school or something.
I'd have to let Angel speak for herself on that.
Sometimes at work/school/etc women and men come-out without having completed entirely their transitions: they haven't done name and gender-marker changes, etc and their physical states kinda out-run their abilities to be 'seen' in the old sex. If they feel that's problematic people will often talk with their HR depts or the school administration about cooperation.
Some schools are prolly more open to that than are others. For instance, just a guess but I would imagine that BYU, Notre Dame, Baylor and Pepperdine (all private and organized by religious groups) would tend to be less than positive in their responses.
Many state schools, depending on the state, would be more open to such requests. In Washington (state) and California and (maybe) Oregon you can get gender-markers and sex-desinators changed w/out surgeries so I would expect that schools may not even have those problems there anymore.
I'd just guess that schools in Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, Massachusetts, Hawaii and New York might be very open to that sort of cooperation as well. Another guess would be Kansas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississsippi, both Dakotas and Utah along with schools in other states might be more averse, but I'd also bet that some universities even in the more conservative areas might well be able to assist students in that regard.
I imagine people would do it because they feel safer from possible violent reprisals with some admin support, they don't want to experience anymore embarrassment and talk about themselves than is necessary. Probably other things as well.
Over here, it's more or less a state-by-state, even locality-by-locality and school-by-school type set of policies.
Hope that helps, E.
N~
Notre Dame has quite a few unisex bathrooms as it seemed the best way to solve the problem when they went co-ed way back when - the problem being that the old buildings built for a male only school didn't have lots of 'girls rooms.'
And my experience is that private schools are a lot freer to do as they wish then state schools are.
Quote from: tekla on June 10, 2008, 12:03:24 PM
Notre Dame has quite a few unisex bathrooms as it seemed the best way to solve the problem when they went co-ed way back when - the problem being that the old buildings built for a male only school didn't have lots of 'girls rooms.'
And my experience is that private schools are a lot freer to do as they wish then state schools are.
Too true, Kat, but what we all really want to know from you is this: Which Disney Princess Are You? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,36249.0.html)
All you've told us thus far is that you admire Maleficent. >:D
Nichole
Much closer to Tinkerbell (after all, I can fly and all that, or at least set the rigging to fly Tink, and I have, and in doing that I got to test it a time or two - I even have some old school pixie dust left over from the 1960s production of Peter Pan with Mary Martin when they used highly polished metal shavings. They use mylar now, seems having metal shavings blowing through the theater and falling on the stage was not good on people's eyes.)
Quote from: Nichole on June 10, 2008, 11:55:28 AM
I'd have to let Angel speak for herself on that.
Sometimes at work/school/etc women and men come-out without having completed entirely their transitions: they haven't done name and gender-marker changes, etc and their physical states kinda out-run their abilities to be 'seen' in the old sex. If they feel that's problematic people will often talk with their HR depts or the school administration about cooperation.
Yeah, it's definitely one of the hardest things to start transition as teenager without changing school...there is just no way, not everybody knows...
But you know this whole fuss that's made about restrooms is so ridiculous... Whom does it harm if somebody with the wrong parts uses the toilet--even more so on a campus where nobody knows nobody anyway...
That you have to talk to some kind of campus president who even needs a hard to attain official admission... Why do they have to make such (from their perspective) unimportant, trivial things so complicated? Don't they have better things to do?
@Nichole
Quote from: Angel on June 07, 2008, 07:51:17 AM
Now I understand that it is in reality a big deal to get official permission, especially in this state, to use the opposite sex bathroom on private grounds. But I feel my answer on my follow up visit to her in a week should be more like this.
I got another legal question. That's a quote from the first posting. You said people can't even get a ticket if they use the 'wrong' restroom and that many TS people just want admin support (which I understand completely), but what's about this whole 'official admission' thing ??? That sounds a lot as if it was mandatory...
Sorry for asking all these questions, but I'm somehow confused...
So much of this depends on where you are. Its possible to get cited for indecent exposure, but there is a catch-all 'creating a public disturbance' that they could get you on. In SF no, in Texas, who knows?
Quote from: ell on June 10, 2008, 09:50:35 AM
and um, may i ask if you are in the US? because if you are, people are denying your Constitutional rights at your job. don't get pissed! but there is no law against wearing nail polish. you need to contact the GLBT law center near you, and the ACLU.
-Ellie
They claim that it is all since I work in food services that they are following FDA protocol. Never mind that i've seen half the woman wearing such things. The earrings could get caught or fall off into food, same with necklace. The nail polish could be a health hazard, despite the fact that we must wear gloves around the food.
Quote from: Nichole on June 10, 2008, 11:55:28 AM
Quote from: Elincubus on June 10, 2008, 11:34:48 AM
@Nichole
That's pretty much how I thought, but then I don't really understand why Angel (and sure lots of other girls) even have to talk to people like this. Or are there special rules in school or something? I mean on a big campus it's not as if everybody knows each other like it might be in a high school or something.
I'd have to let Angel speak for herself on that.
Sometimes at work/school/etc women and men come-out without having completed entirely their transitions: they haven't done name and gender-marker changes, etc and their physical states kinda out-run their abilities to be 'seen' in the old sex. If they feel that's problematic people will often talk with their HR depts or the school administration about cooperation.
Some schools are prolly more open to that than are others. For instance, just a guess but I would imagine that BYU, Notre Dame, Baylor and Pepperdine (all private and organized by religious groups) would tend to be less than positive in their responses.
Many state schools, depending on the state, would be more open to such requests. In Washington (state) and California and (maybe) Oregon you can get gender-markers and sex-desinators changed w/out surgeries so I would expect that schools may not even have those problems there anymore.
I'd just guess that schools in Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, Massachusetts, Hawaii and New York might be very open to that sort of cooperation as well. Another guess would be Kansas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississsippi, both Dakotas and Utah along with schools in other states might be more averse, but I'd also bet that some universities even in the more conservative areas might well be able to assist students in that regard.
I imagine people would do it because they feel safer from possible violent reprisals with some admin support, they don't want to experience anymore embarrassment and talk about themselves than is necessary. Probably other things as well.
Over here, it's more or less a state-by-state, even locality-by-locality and school-by-school type set of policies.
Hope that helps, E.
N~
This is exactly why I came out in the first place to administration. I doubted my ability to pass and wanted to make sure that there was as little fuss as possible. Now it seems to have come back and bit me on the butt because of it. They keep insisting its not because of my ability to pass that these things are going on, but they have to go by law and university policy.
In Wyoming i'm still legally considered male, which in turn makes my use of the female locker room potentially unlawful. While I doubt that there actually is a law in Wyoming against it, the university wants to cut down risk. It also presents the problem that though I can't sue for discrimination, a female coworker (and potentially a student) could. This would fall under 'hostile work environment'.
As for how would they know? My boss has already said that he is going by the university standards, and I get the feeling I won't have a job if I go against the 'agreement'. In regards to the locker room, I feel that even if I don't get expelled, it would make the faculty less receptive to any future difficulties I might face on campus. They already have made a few policy changes that now just let me get into the pool directly. They simply opened up a door that was always locked before, i'll just have to shower and change at home just like any other students that take advantage of this change.
I get the feeling that what they are trying to do is avoid special rules. Meaning things that single out one group or individual. So them making any direct policies for transsexuals seems unlikely, but they will make changes if it will affect the student body in general. They said that all decisions are not 'end of the road' decisions. But to combat the machoism in the school will take time.
So they say.
In the meantime it has again been mentioned that part of the reason there is not going to be any fast changes is that there has been so little exposure to the student body with ->-bleeped-<-. I.E. they think it might be a good idea for me to come out. I've thought about it, and I had planned to be out to my students, but something feels off about doing that. I sorta feel that this suggestion is a trap, and doing so might actually restrict my ability to function in this town. So for now i'm waiting until the next meeting at the end of this summer while at the same time trying to get in touch with the Gender Institute in Colorado. Maybe they can help on the legal front, maybe not.
In the meantime i'm gonna get in shape so that it gets harder and harder for someone to call me a boy. ;)
QuoteIn Wyoming i'm still legally considered male, which in turn makes my use of the female locker room potentially unlawful. While I doubt that there actually is a law in Wyoming against it, the university wants to cut down risk. It also presents the problem that though I can't sue for discrimination, a female coworker (and potentially a student) could. This would fall under 'hostile work environment'..
Hi, Angel:
I don't know what your boss and the admins think, but there are
federal laws about employment and 'hostile work environment' applies to EVERYONE regardless of gender. Even if they regard you as a 'male' that set of laws covers you as well as everyone else in the workplace. So, if they have told you that it doesn't apply because you are 'male' they are absolutely wrong.
That they want you to think that is not surprising. It makes their jobs esier (read: they don't need to do anything as long as you are under this impression.) Most state laws follow the federal guidelines, otherwise they don't get block grants from DHHS to help out their budgets.
QuoteIn the meantime it has again been mentioned that part of the reason there is not going to be any fast changes is that there has been so little exposure to the student body with ->-bleeped-<-. I.E. they think it might be a good idea for me to come out. I've thought about it, and I had planned to be out to my students, but something feels off about doing that. I sorta feel that this suggestion is a trap, and doing so might actually restrict my ability to function in this town. So for now i'm waiting until the next meeting at the end of this summer while at the same time trying to get in touch with the Gender Institute in Colorado. Maybe they can help on the legal front, maybe not.
Um, no. It is NOT your responsibility to 'educate' the student body about ->-bleeped-<-, transsexuality, homossexuality, cissexuality or the spin of Mars. The U you attend is responsible for all of those things. They have a Student Services Office, a Student Life Office, Campus Public Safety Office and a Human Resources Office as well as having Depts. of Sociology, Psychology, Biology and Social Work and perhaps Women's Studies & Gender Studies as well, right? IOW
they have the means to do all of this without you having to place your life and safety in jeopardy to do
their jobs for them.
This is what those admins get paid all the big bucks to do. And it's
their responsibilites to promote a safe learning-environment for ALL the students there. That they would rather not hardly makes it your responsibility to do that for them.
I know you are in a poor situation in that town, perhaps as well in that state. But, the protection and safety of the people on-campus and in each community in that state is the State's responsibility.
QuoteI sorta feel that this suggestion is a trap, and doing so might actually restrict my ability to function in this town. So for now i'm waiting until the next meeting at the end of this summer while at the same time trying to get in touch with the Gender Institute in Colorado. Maybe they can help on the legal front, maybe not.
I agree. If it isn't a 'trap' to get you to take the heat it's a trap to have public pressure and intimidation run you away from there. I would advise against coming out to anyone else in Cheyenne.
I'd suggest contacting the Gender Institute immediately, at least asap, and finding out what you can. Surely they have e-mail capacity at the very least and I know UW has computer-labs and library computers available to full-time students, right?
I'd really and truly advise against coming-out in any way until you have some legal support. Trust me, once the legal support is in-place you may find that the admins take the matter a bit more seriously. Sometimes people simply need to have the proper motivation to do what they should be doing rather than what they would like to have done for them.
Hugs,
Nichole
Edited for two mis-types so kindly found courtesy of tekla. *blush*
Trust me, once the leagl support is in-place you may find that the admins take the matter a bit more seriously.
yeah, a little 'official' encouragement goes a long way. A lawyer means lawsuit, a lawsuit means publicity.
Angel, just out of curiosity what does your employee handbook/manual state about discrimination? In my state gender identity isn't listed with the regular anti-discrimination law (age, sex, race, nationality, sexual orientation) but is covered by an addendum to the sex discrimination law (hopefully to be listed soon, like in NY).
I do find that many administrations/people in charge will try to make YOU do what THEY want unless you confront them with laws (as Nichole said).
I haven't had these issues yet, but face similar misinformation wrt homeschooling laws. Schools and school officials NEVER get those right.
Jay
While I don't know about Texas, the last 8 years have not been a reign of positive PR about Bush's home state.... I'm pretty sure Wyoming is very sensitive to GLBT issues in the wake of Matt Sheppard, and would be a bit easier to nudge with a little official talk.
You are talking about a State that gay's were dragged to death behind a pickup. No matter what the law you are dealing with a dangerous situation.
I carefully avoided using 'gender identity' since they are saying, according to the way I read your post, that you are
'male' and so are not covered by laws against 'hostile work environment.' OK, play
that game if they wish.
"Males"
are covered by the same hostile work environment protections as any other class of human being. Using gender-identity, so far, except in the possible case of the Smithsonian and the former military-analyst they hired then decided not to hire, has not worked. I believe there is a case currently making it's way through the courts that appears to have some promise in that direction though.
Nichole
And this
Quote from: lisagurl on June 10, 2008, 04:48:46 PM
You are talking about a State that gay's were dragged to death behind a pickup. No matter what the law you are dealing with a dangerous situation.
is definitely true, regardless how much the Shepard incident has Cheyenne 'leery' of being seen as being a hostile place for 'different' people.
A hostile work environment is just that, its a gender free deal. Its been much easier to prove for some females, for obvious reasons, I think more females have suffered under it. But still.... hostile is hostile.
Quote from: tekla on June 10, 2008, 05:00:21 PM
A hostile work environment is just that, its a gender free deal. Its been much easier to prove for some females, for obvious reasons, I think more females have suffered under it. But still.... hostile is hostile.
Absolutely!!
Quote from: Nichole on June 10, 2008, 04:56:48 PM
I carefully avoided using 'gender identity' since they are saying, according to the way I read your post, that you are 'male' and so are not covered by laws against 'hostile work environment.' OK, play that game if they wish.
"Males" are covered by the same hostile work environment protections as any other class of human being. Using gender-identity, so far, except in the possible case of the Smithsonian and the former military-analyst they hired then decided not to hire, has not worked. I believe there is a case currently making it's way through the courts that appears to have some promise in that direction though.
Nichole
And this Quote from: lisagurl on June 10, 2008, 04:48:46 PM
You are talking about a State that gay's were dragged to death behind a pickup. No matter what the law you are dealing with a dangerous situation.
is definitely true, regardless how much the Shepard incident has Cheyenne 'leery' of being seen as being a hostile place for 'different' people.
I wonder if I can peg them as they keep saying that there is nothing they can do for these hostile rumors. After all, I shouldn't have to watch my back at work, for no matter how vague the rumors are they are still threatening. If that is not 'hostile' then I don't know what is. I wonder if the ACLU would help me in this situation.
Oh, and Laramie is the town where Matt Sheperd died.
Quote from: tekla on June 10, 2008, 05:00:21 PM
A hostile work environment is just that, its a gender free deal. Its been much easier to prove for some females, for obvious reasons, I think more females have suffered under it. But still.... hostile is hostile.
I wonder how one does prove this?
I wonder how one does prove this?
You don't, a good lawyer does.
Another twist on events, in two more weeks I start work at another section of campus. The pay is only slightly better, but with a promised 40 hour work week i'll be making more these next two months.
On an interesting note, I applied under my female name, and got to the interview. After telling him about the discrepancy about my name my boss just shrugged and said he had no problem with it. So far an exact replica of my current job's hiring process. But as he was giving me a quick tour he made a point to show me the woman's restroom and apologized that it was so far from the shop. I was shocked. But i'm pleased to see the subtle support for what i'm going through. :)
Take that admins! ;P
Quote from: Angel on June 15, 2008, 09:00:04 PM
But as he was giving me a quick tour he made a point to show me the woman's restroom and apologized that it was so far from the shop. I was shocked. But i'm pleased to see the subtle support for what i'm going through. :)
Take that admins! ;P
Aw! That's so cool! What a guy. I hope you get that job honey!
~Simone.