Susan's Place Transgender Resources

i have always been attracted to female gender and never really for the male gender, not to say i havent crossed the tracks once, i hated it and found that i wasnt gay or attracted to males..                                                                                                     I am transgender and born in the wrong body and I hate what I was born as, but me wanting to be female and still wanting to be with other females how can that be that i feel that way? and is that even possible?
I dont' know anyone that has the same problem, or atleast i have not met anyone, even online, so i feel alone on this and thats why i started this topic.
If your out there your not alone let me know..
All feed back welcome hepl me get some in sight..

Samantha,

Congrats, 'cause a majority of M2Fs here seem to be either gay (attracted to gals) or bi ...

I don't pretend to understand, but I put it down to either nurture, or autogynaphobic / fetishisistic aspects of M2F transsexuality ?

But as I say ... I just don't understand why you would go thru M2F transition to be a lesbian ?

But that doesn't deny you the right to be "you" ...

Laura x

If women can be attracted to other women, why can't mtf women be attracted to other women?  I see no contradiction or strangeness. ??? :)

Quote
I just don't understand why you would go thru M2F transition to be a lesbian ?

Sexual orientation is not a choice, Laura.  You can be a woman without wanting to be with a man.

Quote from: TamTam on January 16, 2009, 07:34:55 PM
Sexual orientation is not a choice, Laura.  You can be a woman without wanting to be with a man.

Sure, but why so many M2F women who either have wives or girlfriends, or are attracted to other women, lesbian far far more than the average population ?

This is what I have a really hard time understanding, as from my earliest teens my fantasies were always about being the girlfriend of a wonderful guy ...

laura x

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
But as I say ... I just don't understand why you would go thru M2F transition to be a lesbian ?

Um... correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you go through M2F transition to be a woman?

I highly doubt that the primary motivation is to be gay.

Nevertheless, I prefer not to hold any sort of judgement about people's sexuality, since I see it as having no relevance to their gender identity. And certainly I don't believe that a person's sexual preference makes them more or less 'valid' as a human being, much less a transsexual human being (of either gender), if they are attracted to one gender rather than the other. So... I'm not entirely sure why the congratulations were warranted.

Being attracted to men doesn't automatically make you a woman, just as being attracted to women doesn't automatically make you a man.

I've always followed a thought pattern that gender identity and sexual preference are two very distinct things.

Embrace yourself, embrace others as makes you happy!

*huggs*,
Melan

I think you're showing denial to the idea of being attracted to the same gender that you are.....of which there is nothing wrong with. The most important thing is being true to who you are on the inside. Remember: gay guys aren't any less of a guy because of it, and lesbians aren't any less of a girl.

       what denile is, it is denying things that exist and are true, with choice of correction that we deny for all sorts of reasons, things we do not want to be truth.                                                                                           But what i feel is not denile for i know thw truth and that i feel lno emotions for the same sex, rather for the oppisite, yet iam m2f but with different wnats and needs and feeling then so many out there. but being attracted to the same sex is something we deal with just like me having to deal with being m2f and attracted to females which makes me a m2f lesbian.. but thank you for your input and reply..me it doesnt matter what we like what gender we perfer or what sex we want to be..its all about being happy and wanting what makes our lives better.and thats understanding the truth of ourselfs first...

All I'm saying that its an odd demographic when some 70% of M2F women on this site seem to identify as gay or bi (see the poll on this subject too ...).

Just want to ask WHY !!!

In the female population its hardly even 5%, I don't know a single cis-gendered lesbian ...

Laura x

Where do you get that statistic?  [Of 5% in the general population?]

At any rate, I am a cisgendered gay woman. :) And there are two more like me in my family alone.  In fact, in my family, gay women outnumber gay men. ;)

Samantha,

There's nothing wrong with being both a trans woman and being attracted to women. I'm sure glad my wife is both, just like you :)

You're not weird or crazy or odd or anything else like that.

WR

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 08:39:41 PM
All I'm saying that its an odd demographic when some 70% of M2F women on this site seem to identify as gay or bi (see the poll on this subject too ...).

Just want to ask WHY !!!

In the female population its hardly even 5%, I don't know a single cis-gendered lesbian ...

Laura x

Maybe because those women are smart enough, or wise enough to realise that they don't have to stereotype themselves in order to fit in or prove their womanliness. *shrugs*

That's definitely possible.  I've read a lot that says the current ideas of how large the gay population is are very conservative, because many [cisgendered?] people still attach such a big stigma to homosexuality they're either in denial about it or don't want to admit it to anyone else.  So where current estimates might say the population is 10%-20% homosexual, the actual percentage could be much higher, and then if you include the percentage who are bisexual..

So perhaps since the trans community already has to deal with stigma just for being trans, coming out as gay wouldn't seem like as big of a deal and they'd be more likely to be open about it?  Just speculating..

Samantha sweetie, your gender identity is about who you are, your sexual attraction is about what you like. The two are not the same.

Gender Identity is an inherent part of your psyche, of how you see yourself and how you relate to the world. It has to do with your sense of your body, of your mind and of your spirit. It's all about you and has nothing to do with other people. Being attracted to girls is something else entirely. It's entirely about other people and how you relate to them, what you look for in a partner and what you want a partner to need from you. It's about who you love, and why you love them.

There is no contradiction here hon. Be true to yourself without apology, and the rest will follow.

Mina.

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Laura:

According to research by Dr. Richard Kinsey, 37% of males have achieved orgasm through contact with another male and 13% of women through contact with another woman. These results were later questioned, but after retesting and reviewing by Paul Gebhard, the percentage for males was only marginally altered - 36.4, while for females it remained consistent. This is starkly contrasted to the majority of face to face surveys where only between 5 and 12 % of males own up to homosexuality or bisexuality. To be fair, Kinsey and Gebhard's findings stand out because the numbers are so much larger, but they were testing subconscious and involuntary responses while other research is usually survey based. To illustrate the danger of trusting survey data, consider these findings:

Quote...major historical shifts can occur in reports of the prevalence of homosexuality. For example, the Hamburg Institute for Sexual Research conducted a survey over the sexual behavior of young people in 1970, and repeated it in 1990. Whereas in 1970 18% of the boys aged 16 and 17 reported to have had same-sex sexual experiences, the number had dropped to 2% by 1990. [1] "Ever since homosexuality became publicly argued to be an innate sexual orientation, boys' fear of being seen as gay has, if anything, increased," the director of the institute, Volkmar Sigusch, suggested in a 1998 article for a German medical journal. [2]

Contrast this to research on homophobia done at the University of Georgia, which included only men who were exclusively heterosexual. The participants completed a questionaire to judge their attitudes towards homosexuality, and 35 were found to be homophobic.

Of the homophobic group, 80% experienced arousal in response to homoerotic material, while the non-homophobic group came out at 34%. The total sample was 64 males. That equates to about 28 of the homophobic men and 9 of the nonhomophobics, for an overall 58% of the sample being homosexual to some degree.

Kinsey postulated that the majority of people are bisexual by nature but get conditioned in one direction or the other. While I'm not necessarily in full agreement on this idea, I do think that there are ALOT more homosexual and bisexual people out there than will admit it, even to themselves. Transition is about becoming more true to ourselves, which includes letting go of sexual repression.

Sources:
Kinsey Report Data, The Kinsey Institute (http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/research/ak-data.html)
The Demographics of Sexual Orientation, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation)
Homophobia, religioustolerance.org (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_fuel2.htm)

Mina.

Laura X --

You're not alone!!!  In fact, I can think of two famous lesbian transsexuals:  Jenny Boylan, who wrote an *excellent* autobiography, "She's Not There"; and Kate Bornstein, who wrote "Gender Outlaw", or something similar...


Laura B. --

You raise an interesting point.  Could it be because so many transwomen accept themselves after having already developed a male-typical sexual response (attraction to women)?

You mention not being able to understand why anyone would go through (male-to-female) SRS to be a "lesbian"; I can't understand why anyone would go through SRS to be with a man!  Although honestly, typical heterosexual "opposites attract" psychology has always confounded me.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:47:34 PM
Sure, but why so many M2F women who either have wives or girlfriends, or are attracted to other women, lesbian far far more than the average population ?

This is what I have a really hard time understanding, as from my earliest teens my fantasies were always about being the girlfriend of a wonderful guy ...

laura x

Gender has nothing to do with attraction.

Sexuality and gender are separate, however there is mounting evidence both are created the same way, hormones effecting the fetus. That being the case it makes sense that many T.S. people are also gay or bi, besides the fact that our G.I.D. may have confused our sexuality in the first place.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 08:39:41 PM
(see the poll on this subject too ...).
Laura x

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,53935.new.html#new (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,53935.new.html#new)


I just set up a new poll, let's see how the results look...for MTF's since the forum post addressed them. Just curious and I think this isn't too much thread drift. Meghan

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 08:39:41 PM
All I'm saying that its an odd demographic when some 70% of M2F women on this site seem to identify as gay or bi (see the poll on this subject too ...).

Just want to ask WHY !!!

In the female population its hardly even 5%, I don't know a single cis-gendered lesbian ...

Laura x

Are you that surprised?
I think that because we are SPECIAL, (outside the norm) in more ways than one; so why not?
I admit that when I was younger because of my confusion between sex and gender I thought that my female persona was a cover up for some inconscious (male) gay feeling. Despite being sexually attracted to girls I forced myself into some male homosexual relationship with disastrous consequences. 
Then having come to term with my gender identity and free from cultural stereotypes I was then also more clear about my true sexual orientation. From then on all my girlfriends including my wife have always been aware of my ->-bleeped-<-.
Today  I would define myself is as heterolesbian  :D and let the mind police get their head around that one!  ;)
Et vive la difference
As the song says: "I am what I am" and it is no-one's business.
For quite a while I have reached a stage where I can (and am only interested to form,) develop and nuture mutually loving, caring, suportive and gratifiing relationship with who ever I choose who accepts me for who I am.
It gives me such a sense of freedom and exhilaration that I can't get depressed anymore. :laugh:
So Samantha and everyone else still grapling with this I can only sincerely wish you the same.

Hope, Light, Love and Respect.
Maebh

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 08:39:41 PM
In the female population its hardly even 5%, I don't know a single cis-gendered lesbian ...

Laura x

This is a definately a matter of your circle of friends rather than the state of the world.  I go to a conservative, republican majority high school and there are a couple open lesbians, and even more openly bi girls.  And these are just the people who are out.  I suspect that the actual incidence of bisexuality is closer to the number of out MtFs rather than the number of out cisgendered females; however, most people who are bi don't come out, so we will never know for sure.

I have to agree with other posters about gender and sexuality are very seperate, ive always been attracted to girls and identified as female from my earliest days. So however thats labelled.

Also as lauara mentioned, i guess its circles we all move in. I know a great many lesbians.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
But as I say ... I just don't understand why you would go thru M2F transition to be a lesbian ?

Because lesbians ROCK!!!!!! :P

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 08:39:41 PM
All I'm saying that its an odd demographic when some 70% of M2F women on this site seem to identify as gay or bi (see the poll on this subject too ...).

Just want to ask WHY !!!

If you mean etiologically speaking, it's probably because the biological causes behind gender and sexuality are related -- when you start varying them, who knows what you'll get? -- and because the social pressures regarding sexuality when you are transsexual are completely scrambled.

Quote
I don't know a single cis-gendered lesbian ...

My condolences, Laura. Lesbians ROCK!!!!

~Alyssa

i think it's because girls are hot. girls look good, so that naturally follows that even other girls can't keep their hands off em. ;D

Quote from: Nero on January 17, 2009, 05:47:35 PM
i think it's because girls are hot.

I would have to agree with Nero. ;D

And Alyssa's right, too. 8)

I tried men, but men didn't work for me. I never fell in love with one; never felt the same tingly "all is right with the world" feeling when I lay down and nestled in the crook of their arms. That's how my partner makes me feel. I think it's a rush of oxytocin.

There are men I wouldn't kick out of bed for eating crackers. But in general I am far more often attracted to women than men. Does that mean I'm bi?

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 08:39:41 PM
All I'm saying that its an odd demographic when some 70% of M2F women on this site seem to identify as gay or bi (see the poll on this subject too ...).

Just want to ask WHY !!!

In the female population its hardly even 5%, I don't know a single cis-gendered lesbian ...

Laura x

i know quite a few...and identify as m2f lesbian as well :>)

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:47:34 PM

Quote from: TamTam on January 16, 2009, 07:34:55 PM

Sure, but why so many M2F women who either have wives or girlfriends, or are attracted to other women, lesbian far far more than the average population ?

laura x

Because, that population is statistically skewed.  The odds of a pre-transition lesbian m2f pairing with a woman rather than a man is.....ummmmm.....
yup.......100%.

If I had been born female, I would have been sex=female, gender=female, orientation=lesbian. 

Instead, I was born sex=male (like you), gender=female (like you), and orientation=lesbian.

Ya got your sex, your gender, and your orientation.
Honestly, I wish you would get over this....

Simple as one, two, three.



Gay Bev


that's why.

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Post Merge: January 18, 2009, 09:41:53 PM

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Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
But as I say ... I just don't understand why you would go thru M2F transition to be a lesbian ?

Ugg! This is the same mindset I often find outside the trans-world.  You are trans, right?
The reason, Laura, is that I find making love to a woman as a man to be repellent, disagreeable, and unworkable.  Most lesbians I know don't want to 'really be men'.....no.....we are women!  And we form relationships to, and make love to other women.


Bev

If I understand the medical literature correctly, gender identity and sexual orientation are two seperate sections of the brain.  The required genetic traits combined with when and how long an inutero hormonal imbalance happens will determine our identiy and preference.  They are not necessariloy mutually inclusive.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
I just don't understand why you would go thru M2F transition to be a lesbian ?

Transsexuality 101

"For simplicity, a transsexual is a person whose inner sense of gender identity and brain patterns are completely the opposite of what physical form they are born into. This is a recognized medical condition which is completely unrelated to sexuality or sexual preference at all, but unfortunately society sees only brazen gay and bisexual people out there using gender bending to express their sexuality and assumes this is what transsexuals are too. A real transsexual has no more in common with a drag queen, gay or bisexual person than they do with a chimpanzee! They have a deep basic incongruity between their inner identity and their physical form which can only best be expressed as something which is within their very soul. Transsexuality occurs in equal numbers across born male and born female people. Estimates are that approximately 1 in 30,000 people are born with the condition."

http://www.breesaffirmation.org/Transsexuality.htm (http://www.breesaffirmation.org/Transsexuality.htm)

Quote from: kytheragraves on January 17, 2009, 06:07:29 PM
I tried men, but men didn't work for me. I never fell in love with one; never felt the same tingly "all is right with the world" feeling when I lay down and nestled in the crook of their arms. That's how my partner makes me feel. I think it's a rush of oxytocin.

I have always had the same feeling when I used to date guys, but when reflecting upon myself, I decided that a body is just a body, and that what's really important to a great relationship is what's on the inside.

I'm like, totally gay.  So there.  I wrote up a bunch about it on my blog.  Really... I don't even want a guy as a close friend.  Just girls!  They're yummy and fantastic~

I agree with these being separate issues.  Why go through m2f transition to be a lesbian?  That's a strange question to me.  You go through transition to live life as your true gender. If you happen to be lesbian, then that's simply your sexual preference.  Sexually, I have no preference.  Just because I will still enjoy the company of a woman it doesn't make me less of a woman. Gender and sexual orientation are not the same thing, as others have pointed out.  Samantha, don't be confused by the two.  You're sexual orientation has no bearing on your gender.

What's with the belief that trans women can't be lesbian? (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,35797.0.html)

Quote from: kirakero on January 19, 2009, 02:03:30 PM
I'm like, totally gay.  So there.  I wrote up a bunch about it on my blog.  Really... I don't even want a guy as a close friend.  Just girls!  They're yummy and fantastic~

I feel the same - Have always had difficulty communicating/relating with/to guys...

Nice blog BTW!

Quote from: Jade H on January 24, 2009, 07:52:24 AM

Quote from: kirakero on January 19, 2009, 02:03:30 PM
I'm like, totally gay.  So there.  I wrote up a bunch about it on my blog.  Really... I don't even want a guy as a close friend.  Just girls!  They're yummy and fantastic~

I feel the same - Have always had difficulty communicating/relating with/to guys...

Nice blog BTW!

Kira & Jade ... doesn't it kind of seem that you're transitions were not so much because you always felt and ID'd as female, but more because you couldn't relate to your male peers, faced rejection, bullying or worse, but you fancied and envied girls and saw being a girl and lesbian as a total "escape" ?

I sure can't "relate" with guys like a guy does, but that doesn't stop me enjoying their company (especially in a one to one situation), talking and engaging with them.

I find that as a woman when I'm with a bunch of guys there's no pressure to compete on their terms, yet I'm "included" and respected, which makes it so much more fun ...

Sure I find many women pretty ... but sexually ? ... give me the arms of a strong and attractive guy around me.  Nothing makes you feel more desireable, wanted and valued ...

Laura x

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 24, 2009, 09:59:34 AMKira & Jade ... doesn't it kind of seem that you're transitions were not so much because you always felt and ID'd as female, but more because you couldn't relate to your male peers, faced rejection, bullying or worse, but you fancied and envied girls and saw being a girl and lesbian as a total "escape" ?

I can't speak for either of them, but for me that was totally not the case. I grew up not being able to relate to males because I knew I was a girl. Nothing more or less. I knew I was a girl and related to other girls waaaaaayyyyyy before I even knew what sexual attraction was, nevermind felt it.

Ultimately sweetie, you like boys, and I like girls. That does not define either of us though. It's simply who we are attracted to, not who we are.

Mina.

Being neither male or female, my life has been one of several
different paths. Yes have been with males, yet there was never
a connection. But with a GG there were a few(perhaps only 2)
that had that warm snuggle up close to feeling. It may well be
that somewhere in my mindset(be that whatever) that all the
things and feelings occur with a woman only. Somehow within
me lay things that only a woman can touch, yes it may well be
that my sexual path lie with a female, but after all, still a male
in body. The fine line of who,what and how still remains a
secret, not only to myself and others, but the world, currently.
As far as you sexual preference, it is of only a concern to the
women in your life, as to how you treat them and feel about
what you expect of your ownself.
:)
Mikee-Michelle

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 24, 2009, 09:59:34 AM

Kira & Jade ... doesn't it kind of seem that you're transitions were not so much because you always felt and ID'd as female, but more because you couldn't relate to your male peers, faced rejection, bullying or worse, but you fancied and envied girls and saw being a girl and lesbian as a total "escape" ?

No - As a young boy, (early years of puberty) I quickly adapted to portraying a stereotypical male. I knew (but didn't quite agree with) what was expected of me - I played the part pretty convincingly for the next 20 years... I will admit - I was envious of the girls... still am...

Pre-puberty, all my closest friends were girls - it's where I felt most comfortable. I had male friends - but they were not as much fun (to be around) as the girls. Young boys also seemed (to me) to be "not as bright" (intellectually) as the girls. They (the boys) were also interested in things that I simply was not.

I still think that (most) men (and boys) are a little "slow"... and gross.. And hairy and smelly and... EEEWWW

Throughout my life, I've had (still have) far more (close) female friends than male ones.


But then again I identify more (at this stage of my life) as a feminine androgyne lesbian... or a failed M2F lesbian?

Who knows, I may have a change of heart (regarding males) further down the road... 'doubt it though... ;) My wife still teases me about the possibility...

Quote from: mina.m->-bleeped-<-ie link=topic=53623.msg336766#msg336766 date=1232814586

...I was a girl and related to other girls waaaaaayyyyyy before I even knew what sexual attraction was, nevermind felt it.

Ultimately sweetie, you like boys, and I like girls. That does not define either of us though. It's simply who we are attracted to, not who we are.

Mina.

Exactly!!!

For me, lesbian is more than just a sexual orientation. It's a social and political identity as well, and it dovetails with my feminism. To me, women loving women is the highest value in life.

Quote from: Hypatia on January 24, 2009, 12:31:22 PM
For me, lesbian is more than just a sexual orientation. It's a social and political identity as well, and it dovetails with my feminism. To me, women loving women is the highest value in life.

I feel strongly for and completely agree with this statement.  So much so that I find heterosexual relationships hard to understand.  Being a lesbian woman, loving a woman... is the most natural thing for me.

Quote from: Jade H on January 24, 2009, 07:52:24 AM
I feel the same - Have always had difficulty communicating/relating with/to guys...

Nice blog BTW!

Thank you Jade~  And also I would say I feel the same way in regards to communication with guys.

Quote from: Hypatia on January 24, 2009, 12:31:22 PM
To me, women loving women is the highest value in life.

Many would say that "men loving women" and "women loving men", complimenting feminine and masculine characteristics and strengths, enabling procreation, and providing the balanced stable environment to raise children is the highest value in life ... ??? ...

I need a partner who doesn't mirror me but who complements me, filling in the gaps where I am weak.

Laura x

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Quote from: kirakero on January 24, 2009, 12:51:21 PM

Quote from: Hypatia on January 24, 2009, 12:31:22 PM
For me, lesbian is more than just a sexual orientation. It's a social and political identity as well, and it dovetails with my feminism. To me, women loving women is the highest value in life.

I feel strongly for and completely agree with this statement.  So much so that I find heterosexual relationships hard to understand.  Being a lesbian woman, loving a woman... is the most natural thing for me.

None of us would be here if it weren't for heterosexual relationships !

Get some sense ... most women on this planet are attracted to guys, and vice-versa ...

Was a time when claiming to be M2F transsexual and seeking treatment, you would not even reach the starting blocks if you professed any attraction to women, let alone were married !!!

Laura x

I think the younger a person is the easier it is to be hetero-flexible.

Also the more complete transition is, the easier it is to be heterosexual.

I could be with a woman now but why would I want to?  Then again as we become more and more modernized, women and men tend towards being equally unattractive.  I want an old-fashioned guy who is enterprising and who can treat me like a lady while acting upon my behalf as both a gentleman and a barbarian and maybe even a bit of a chauvinist once in a while.  If I need someone to talk to I can always ring up a girlfriend.  Ah well..

I do not know. However sometimes I have thought that is more acceptable for a transwoman to be lesbian than straight.

The BBL theory mocks even more ''homosexual transsexuals'' than others.

This thread is starting to make my teeth grind.

Laura, I don't get how you don't get lesbians so much. Do you even accept that being lesbian is a valid female identity at all? Or if you are cisgendered and homosexual, is that just "->-bleeped-<--lite" in your view?

Quote from: Alyssa M. on January 24, 2009, 07:19:32 PM
Laura, I don't get how you don't get lesbians so much. Do you even accept that being lesbian is a valid female identity at all? Or if you are cisgendered and homosexual, is that just "->-bleeped-<--lite" in your view?

Alyssa, I have no issues with gay people, but I can't identify with the concept, and I just get exasperated when women here say :

"To me, women loving women is the highest value in life"

"Really... I don't even want a guy as a close friend.  Just girls!  They're yummy and fantastic"

This strikes me as an ultimate rejection of masculine values, a rejection of the world as it works, and makes me wonder about posters motives for transitioning ?

If TS women were akin to "natal" women then at most 10% would profess to be lesbian, and way less than 20% bi ... but as stats stand you can understand people thinking that we all fit into that mis-designated "GLBT" category which I soo hate !

I'm hetero and I think its about time that other straight gals (& guys) stood up and said "we out-number you", but I guess we don't ...  :( ...

Laura x

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 24, 2009, 08:06:12 PMThis strikes me as an ultimate rejection of masculine values, a rejection of the world as it works, and makes me wonder about posters motives for transitioning ?

Can't you simply accept that they are different from you? According to psychology, and with the studies to back it up, most of us are bi to begin with, and then lean one way or the other due to conditioning. Lesbians are no different from you except in that they are not attracted to masculinity.

Personally, I am mildly attracted to masculinity as well, though not so much as to femininity. I realise though that that probably has alot to do with how I perceive guys. (loud, aggressive, dangerous, misogynistic) I'm quite comfortable with that though, and realise that my reasons and situation need not apply to anybody else.

QuoteIf TS women were akin to "natal" women then at most 10% would profess to be lesbian, and way less than 20% bi ... but as stats stand you can understand people thinking that we all fit into that mis-designated "GLBT" category which I soo hate !

As I pointed out in an earlier post, those statistics do not necessarily reflect the reality of humankind. That, along with the fact that transitioners go through a huge learning curve of self acceptance and confronting our true selves probably does make us more likely to swing both ways or be attracted to the same gender, simply because it's reality. And granted, that self evaluation focusses on gender yes, but it also spills into other areas, including sexuality. Cisgendered women, on the other hand, tend not to have that same deep self-evaluation forced on them, at least not as an entire population.

QuoteI'm hetero and I think its about time that other straight gals (& guys) stood up and said "we out-number you", but I guess we don't ...  :( ...

Why the "us vs. them" sweetie? My being bi or a lesbian in no way impacts on your sexuality. Why should it bother you so much?

Mina.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 24, 2009, 09:59:34 AM
Sure I find many women pretty ... but sexually ? ... give me the arms of a strong and attractive guy around me.  Nothing makes you feel more desireable, wanted and valued ...

Nothing makes you feel more desirable, wanted, and valued.  Your feelings are not the only ones in the universe, nor are they the 'best,' 'most valid,' 'most womanly,' or 'most feminine.'

And why do you want straight people to rise up and tell us you outnumber us?  Guess what, we already know.  Trust me, we know.  Straight people have a tendency of lording it over us, haven't you heard?  And you say you don't have a problem with gay people..

Sure, I find many men cute and/or handsome... but sexually?  Give me the arms of a strong and beautiful woman like my girlfriend around me.  Nothing would make me feel more desirable, wanted, and valued. 

If you can't understand that, that's not my problem, you don't have to understand me and my desires for them to be valid and fulfilling for me.  But I am frankly shocked and insulted that you would call into doubt someone's gender identity based on who they're attracted to and some silly statistics that have been repeatedly pointed out to you as being false.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 24, 2009, 08:06:12 PM
Alyssa, I have no issues with gay people, but I can't identify with the concept, and I just get exasperated when women here say :

"To me, women loving women is the highest value in life"

"Really... I don't even want a guy as a close friend.  Just girls!  They're yummy and fantastic"

This strikes me as an ultimate rejection of masculine values, a rejection of the world as it works, and makes me wonder about posters motives for transitioning ?

Why? And more to the point, why do you care? Why the crusade to prove that you're somehow more 'authentic' than everyone who doesn't share your outlook on life?

Are you really so insecure that you cannot accept people different to yourself and allow them to live their lives the way they choose to without judging them, in the assumption that their lives will somehow impact on yours and make you look like something less than you are?

*sigh* That's a shame... and I'm not so sure it's other people with the issues here. :-\

If you don't identify with gay people then that's your perogative. You don't have to. All you have to do is show some respect for them and the way they live their lives, the way you would expect to be treated yourself. Is that so hard?

QuoteIf TS women were akin to "natal" women then at most 10% would profess to be lesbian, and way less than 20% bi ... but as stats stand you can understand people thinking that we all fit into that mis-designated "GLBT" category which I soo hate !

That's what I thought. You think gay women make you look bad. For someone looking for acceptance as yourself... that's rather a hypocritical attitude to adopt, don't you think?

QuoteI'm hetero and I think its about time that other straight gals (& guys) stood up and said "we out-number you", but I guess we don't ...  :( ...

Again... why? And so what? This is verging on homophobia. I guess the reason 'other straight gals (& guys)' don't is because they have a bit more humanity, understanding, and wisdom... and don't seem to feel so threatened and inferior.

However one reason that lesbian transwomen are so open and hetererosexual are not may be result of ''gayphobia'' in trascommunity. Hetererosexual transwomen could still be understood just very ''gay'' men.

Hrmmm a tad too deep this has become

whatever happened to your sexual desire and what gets you going, i can relate to anyone wanting to be straight Bi or gay.

I have never felt the need to relate my attraction to girls to transsexual expression or some such but hey we all view this journey differently.
Im a girl i like girls, define me however.

The junk science by Michael Bailey and others divides transwomen ''homosexuals'' and ''autogynephiles''. However the both groups, ''homosexual transsexuals'' even more are seen very negatively in Book ''Men that would be queens''. Homosexual transsexual are accoding his book protitutes, petty criminals etc.  Worse than AG-group.

However hole this BBL-classification is unscientistic and made to mock transwomen dowm.

I was thinking about it and I realized that I don't want to cut myself off from being able to be with a woman.  But it depends what we are talking about.  Sexual orientation is one thing and relationship dynamics are another and I think some people don't even recognize the distinction.

Quote from: Caprica-6 on January 25, 2009, 01:44:42 PM
  Sexual orientation is one thing and relationship dynamics are another and I think some people don't even recognize the distinction.

This I can agree with.  If it was all about relationship dynamics and sex was never involved, I'd probably be bi, because personality-wise I don't have a set preference for one gender over the other.  But I've known that for a long time.

Quote from: Ms Delgado on January 17, 2009, 05:32:21 PM
I have to agree with other posters about gender and sexuality are very seperate, ive always been attracted to girls and identified as female from my earliest days. So however thats labelled.

Quote from: TamTam on January 17, 2009, 06:00:36 PM
I would have to agree with Nero. ;D

And Alyssa's right, too. 8)

Quote from: Nero on January 17, 2009, 05:47:35 PM
i think it's because girls are hot. girls look good, so that naturally follows that even other girls can't keep their hands off em. ;D

Yep. I even said to my wife she looks good all the time. My wife on the other hand, said to me back in October, "You have a very sexy lips, and have an excellent figure. I don't say that often enough."

I like both guys and girls, and can be happy with either.  I may lean slightly more to the girl side, just because growing up around boys so much, has made me slightly distrustful of them, so I think my standards with men are much higher than they are with women.  Though I'm picky with either, and thus single more often than not :P

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
Samantha,

Congrats, 'cause a majority of M2Fs here seem to be either gay (attracted to gals) or bi ...

I don't pretend to understand, but I put it down to either nurture, or autogynaphobic / fetishisistic aspects of M2F transsexuality ?

But as I say ... I just don't understand why you would go thru M2F transition to be a lesbian ?

But that doesn't deny you the right to be "you" ...

Laura x

Hmn..  I view it very differently...  I don't understand how a MtF could want to be with a male partner, but then again I'm lesbian so I'm biased for sure. 

Why go through MtF surgery to be a lesbian?  Because that is  natural for me.  I couldn't be anything but a lesbian.

There does seem to be a segregation of sorts between straight and lesbian transwomen.  Often the "straight" transwoman thinks they are more "woman" than the lesbian transwoman.  SO does that make them more "woman" than a GG lesbian?  I'm sure the GG lesbians would have something to say about that.  Ask them.

On the other side of that.  Some lesbian transwomen look down on the straight transwomen as "only being with men to try and reassure themselves that they are women". 

Why can't there be true lesbian and true straight transwomen?   There are true lesbian and true straight genetic women right?  Seems the same would be true for transwomen as well.

---

Post Merge: February 15, 2009, 12:48:58 AM

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Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 24, 2009, 08:06:12 PM
Alyssa, I have no issues with gay people, but I can't identify with the concept, and I just get exasperated when women here say :

"To me, women loving women is the highest value in life"

"Really... I don't even want a guy as a close friend.  Just girls!  They're yummy and fantastic"

This strikes me as an ultimate rejection of masculine values, a rejection of the world as it works, and makes me wonder about posters motives for transitioning ?

If TS women were akin to "natal" women then at most 10% would profess to be lesbian, and way less than 20% bi ... but as stats stand you can understand people thinking that we all fit into that mis-designated "GLBT" category which I soo hate !

I'm hetero and I think its about time that other straight gals (& guys) stood up and said "we out-number you", but I guess we don't ...  :( ...

Laura x

Very ignorant view of people.  Sickening in fact.  So how bout all those straight people stand up against you since technically by their standards you arn't straight.  You are a guy with a mutilated penis.  Good luck convincing them all otherwise.   Hope it works out well for you.

God I hope my wife (who is a GG lesbian) doesn't read this.  She would rip you a new one over your views Lara.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on February 13, 2009, 03:26:42 AM
I like both guys and girls, and can be happy with either.  I may lean slightly more to the girl side, just because growing up around boys so much, has made me slightly distrustful of them, so I think my standards with men are much higher than they are with women.  Though I'm picky with either, and thus single more often than not :P

Very true, although maybe it's not just standards but what's on offer. Men generally appear to be more uptight around gender and sexuality issues and this makes it hard for both parties.

I fancy guys about half as much as I fancy girls but it's really all the baggage that comes along with men rather than just sexuality that puts me off most of the time.

Quote from: Ashley315 on February 15, 2009, 01:28:02 AM

...She would rip you a new one over your views Lara.

Yeesh! Lucky Laura - No, wait, she already has a new one...! ;) :o
So how much does she charge? (To rip new ones...?)

Quote from: Jade H on February 19, 2009, 12:00:36 AM
Yeesh! Lucky Laura - No, wait, she already has a new one...! ;) :o
So how much does she charge? (To rip new ones...?)

Free of charge to those who make her mad.  I've seen it.. It isn't pretty.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 24, 2009, 08:06:12 PM
Alyssa, I have no issues with gay people, but I can't identify with the concept, and I just get exasperated when women here say :

"To me, women loving women is the highest value in life"

"Really... I don't even want a guy as a close friend.  Just girls!  They're yummy and fantastic"

This strikes me as an ultimate rejection of masculine values, a rejection of the world as it works, and makes me wonder about posters motives for transitioning ?

If TS women were akin to "natal" women then at most 10% would profess to be lesbian, and way less than 20% bi ... but as stats stand you can understand people thinking that we all fit into that mis-designated "GLBT" category which I soo hate !

I'm hetero and I think its about time that other straight gals (& guys) stood up and said "we out-number you", but I guess we don't ...  :( ...

Laura x

Laura, I identify as Bisexual.  Try as I might I just can't limit myself to just one or other... sometimes it just depends on my mood.  I can like everything from girly guys to guyly girls and t-whatevers are of course included as well.  I don't think this has much to do with my gender but I kinda see your point about the disparity in percentages.  I try not to judge too much.. though I will admit I have a double standard thing going on... like if I'm in the mood for a Man (with a capital M) I would lose all interest if he had ever been with another man.  Somewhere in my mind I feel like one day I'll grow out of all this mess and just settle for one, but as it is I'm having too much fun.  I guess I'm just waiting for the right one to come along whoever it will be.

Being attracted to a person simply because it feels right is probably best. Regardless of gender. I have a lesbian friend who was married and has two young children. She told me that she had never experienced love before she discovered her present partner. It's a difficult for them financially to support but the rewards are worth all the extra work. A person can change many things in life but that particular desire does not come on the list of options. Personally I think lesbians have more fun. Genevieve

Quote from: Genevieve Swann on March 02, 2009, 06:44:30 AM
Personally I think lesbians have more fun. Genevieve

I can't deny that this is part of the appeal.  Men mainly seem capable of two things, both of which I find rather distasteful (but that's just me of course).

Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation are not the same thing. However, I think I hear what you are saying... it would be so much easier for me to be all about the men. Transitioning alone totally sucks. Finding women that see MtF's as women are rare. Finding even enough of a connection with someone is rare. It makes things complicated. Just be yourself. Our ladies will find us eventually.

I might would be a little more open to the idea of being with a guy if I were not already happily married to a woman..  Who knows.  Guess I don't have to worry about it.  I've just never found them sexually attractive.  There are some I can look at and think, "he is kinda cute" and I can see why a straight woman (or gay guy) would be attracted to some guys, but I've just never been turned on by them.

Quote from: Ashley315 on March 16, 2009, 12:16:36 AM
There are some I can look at and think, "he is kinda cute" and I can see why a straight woman (or gay guy) would be attracted to some guys

I totally understand this concept. I have been so lonely that I try to open to the idea of letting a man into my life but the follow through keeps coming up with the same result ~ it just is not right.

Oddly enough after I awoke today and had my first coffee the daydreaming process began. I told myself  "Self, you should marry a lesbian." It's because I prefer the company of a woman. Some guys are physically attractive but usually there's an attitude problem. Maybe society influences guys to show off their machismo. When guys are together they can act very immature. Arrested development. They are still in a highschool locker room.

If you are attracted to females and wish to be a female, you are indeed lesbian :3

I also consider myself a lesbian, though I am straight as of now because I am still a legal male, due to preferring females and I have a girlfriend already who is a bisexual male to female transgender.

What is the point of beating yourself up for being who you are anyway?
So what if you are attracted to females and wish to change your gender/sex, that is normal although society does not see it that way.

If anything, on the homosexual topic, I have always thought people (as in everyone on this planet) were initially bisexual at one point in time in their life either clueless about it or in denial and I myself have found some male content arousing before a long time ago.
A long time ago I was quite confused about my sexual preference to men because I had thoughts of them sexually and I knew I just did not like them like that, but since I was thinking about them on auto-pilot every now and then I thought I was bisexual but something was WAY off, I was not looking at males intentionally and did not find them arousing.
Years went by and I was still stumped on why I kept thinking of males, then one day I stumbled upon ->-bleeped-<-s (transsexuals) and my images of men stopped auto-piloting and I realized it wasn't men I was attracted to but transsexuals and I have not had a single auto-pilot image of a man in my head since :3
It explains why I was never attracted to men but I did not know much about transsexuals back then and was battling my preferences and I always looked at furry art and feminine guys (emo's) and it just occurred to me that I prefer feminine transsexuals over men and I also realized in turn I am also lesbian.

You just need to find yourself, your place, desires, sexual orientation and be you :3
Explore yourself, your soul, body, desires and everything about you and you will find your place.

I am a male to female lesbian, but I do not want to be with a male... it just does not fit my image.
But I am also taken by a dominant male to female transgender :3

This article about MtF TS sexual orientaion is interesting.
http://www.secondtype.com/sexuality.htm (http://www.secondtype.com/sexuality.htm)

Most of the studies cited in the chart have too small a sample size to infer much from them.  One of the studies (Lawrence, 2005) is way out of whack, but it has by far the greatest sample size.  The range of results shows anywhere from 10%~ to 25% of post-op women are lesbians.  The range of post-op women who are hetero or bi was pretty consistently within the range of 85%-90%.  I doubt this is terribly different from natal women.  Where TS peeps are differentiated from cis-women (especially in the Lawrence study) is more of them seem to be bi than straight heterosexual. 

As I said, I believe this is less different from cis-women than one might assume.  Like Janet above, I believe many people are a lot more bi than they think.  I am sure plenty of girls raised in repressive social situations who had tendencies to find both boys and girls attractive only pursued their attraction to males, and probably repressed whatever attraction to females they may have felt.  I know from personal experience that the human power for denial is enormous, especially when you are inclined to try to fit in.

For TS's, especially those who tried at first to assimilate as males, their attraction to women wasn't socially stigmatized, so they would have been more likely to be open to such feelings.  Those who transition very late in life would have spent most of their life pushed by the social current toward pursuing women, and those who were able to find satisfaction there had a whole lot of time to get comfortable with the idea that they are attracted to women exclusively.  It is not surprising to me that the older a MtF is when she transitions, the more likely she is to be a lesbian.

For me, I tried to like girls as a part of my effort to assimilate into society as I felt I was expected.  In fact I convinced myself that I really did feel attracted to them.  Yet, I found the physical stuff never did much for me (besides stress me out) and that my relationships were always failing b/c of my complete lack of interest in physical intimacy.  Despite these clues I never really caught on that maybe just because I could perceive that a girl was cute or attractive didn't necessarily mean I was attracted to them sexually.  As I've dropped away from conforming to the gender norms I was assigned at birth, I've found my attraction to women has completely evaporated and that I'm becoming much more attracted to men.

One other consideration about the data in the article I linked is it is all probably somewhat skewed because it's been observed that many post-ops find their orientation is somewhat fluid for a while until they settle into long-term partnering habits (Lynne Conway.)  It would be interesting to see a study that tracks the orientation of people who are a decade or more post-op.

Quote from: Jen on April 19, 2009, 03:31:22 PM
This article about MtF TS sexual orientaion is interesting.
http://www.secondtype.com/sexuality.htm (http://www.secondtype.com/sexuality.htm)

One thing I didn't see in that article (I read most but skimmed some), is the difference in how different age groups view sexuality. Being gay 30 years ago was a much bigger deal than it is today. This could have an effect on the results as not only the age you transitioned at but also how your generation viewed gay relationships.

Still very interesting.

I'm bisexual I guess but find Gay guys a massive turn off... Never fancied one and never had one fancy me, or if they did I never realised it.

Was at a very famous fetish club here in London last week and the guys were just weird but the girls were just amazing.

When will men realise that just stariing at one or bumping into one is not the way to go?... No class, no sexiness,  and that's why I stick to women :)

Rant over! ;D

Quote from: Leslie Ann on April 19, 2009, 04:33:16 PM
One thing I didn't see in that article (I read most but skimmed some), is the difference in how different age groups view sexuality. Being gay 30 years ago was a much bigger deal than it is today. This could have an effect on the results as not only the age you transitioned at but also how your generation viewed gay relationships.

You raise a good point..  ^-^

because God made you that way...... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thank you.  I found this very interesting because I am a woman who has been going by the term 'bi-sexual' for the past 10 years and my fiance is a woman who goes by 'lesbian'; who ironically was my boyfriend in 1999.  We dated briefly and then didn't see each other for years.  We met up again and started dating again only this time as a lesbian couple.  I knew nothing about being trans and the first 3 people I talked to told me that as soon as my girlfriend got SRS we would break up.  I didn't understand why they would say such a thing but now I know that it is because they were stereotyping us.  If we really are two females then we won't stay together because eventually we will BOTH seek to date a man.  I was afraid because they honestly believed we CAN'T stay together.  Then I watched a thing on you tube about a Mtf lesbian and I felt much better.  I loved my girlfriend in 1999 when she was a guy I love her now in 2009 when she is a woman and I am looking forward to loving her in 2019 when we are happily married with a house and kids... 

Welcome to Susan's, Venus. I'm glad you found some comfort. :)

Funny, isn't it, (and sad) how often we buy into these utterly ridiculous stereotypes even while everything we experience tells us they're wrong?

You get people like that from time to time Venus.  Ignorance at it's best is all I can say about that.  I know plenty of lesbian couples (my wife and I included) who have never nor will ever "seek" a man for a relationship.  I have been with my partner for 16 years now and every day our love for each other grows stronger.

Lesbian, straight, bi..... it makes no difference in the end... Just find someone that makes you happy and don't worry to much about the labels.

I'm a Lezzie!  ;D 

Some transwomen previously "functioned" quite well in the male role, some didn't function in that role at all and needed to become female to become sexually active.
For the former group, surely that entire past life - 54 years in my case - MUST leave us with a lot of leftover attitudes and inclinations? If you keep on repeating something often enough, the brain itself modifies and adapts, that's the basis of Learning.
So surely it's quite a lot about "how well one adjusted" to life in a gender role that conflicted with ones inner inclinations and desires?

Also - if one had assimilated the male role fairly well, then one has spent a LOT of time hanging around with guys and seen them in a way and to a depth that (probably) no cisgendered female ever has.

Personally, I tried male-on-male sex half a dozen times and simply could not "feel right" about it - not guilt or anything, just simply not right even with a really handsome and trusted friend for whom I had/have a deep brotherly affection.

To be honest, I find the entire guy lifestyle uninviting in almost every way - it seems to be little more than a perpetual pissing contest.
Teenage boys are the worst for giving us all grief on the streets - most of the time, I just pity them 'cos I've BEEN THERE once myself and know that they are grandstanding for each others benefit, playing up how "true guy through-and-through they are.

Since this thread seems to be endless, I might as well kick in.

I don't see why more people don't simply presume that a life spent trying to conform to one gender and its norms might just have some lingering effects even after gender transition. A few people above pointed this out, but it seems pretty widely ignored all the same.

I identify as bi-sexual. But increasingly, as I've been in male mode, I'm more like asexual because I don't really want to be intimate with anyone who sees me as male. That wasn't always true. But it's truer the older I get. It's the ultimate turn off.

As for those who accept me as a woman, I'm bisexual for now. I suspect if I'd been raised as a girl I'd be hetero with no more than maybe a couple hidden bi fantasies. But who really knows such a thing? Most of my current romantic fantasies involve men. My closest relationships are with women. I have no idea where things might lead in the future, but my sexuality is among the least of my quandries. I just accept whom I feel attracted to and worry about other things.

Though to toss another log onto the fire, I believe I've heard that post-op TS's who identify as bisexual pre-op go on to identify as hetero in some significant number later on. Anyone have any info on that?

      Oddly enough, for most of my life as a physical male, I was strictly into men. I began hormones at 18 years old and I watched in time as my tastes wandered and morphed as my body did as well. Now 21, all attraction to males has dissipated and I find myself attracted to women.

      My story is not unlike many others, sometimes its vice versa. Don't worry about being a "lesbian" if you are m2f, it's no big deal. I have been in a very committed lesbian relationship with a GG for 1 year now and not only is she supportive but anxious for what my surgery will bring in a few months. It's pretty cool! Anyway, i see this topic a lot and I see absolutely no problem with it! Be you, because that's what caused you to transition in the first place!

Quote from: Dana_W on May 04, 2009, 11:12:25 PM
Though to toss another log onto the fire, I believe I've heard that post-op TS's who identify as bisexual pre-op go on to identify as hetero in some significant number later on. Anyone have any info on that?

I suspect the reason is precisely the same as the reason that many bisexual people in general end up "identifying" -- or more accurately, "being identified" -- as hetero "later on." Simply, if you are strictly bisexual (no preference whatsoever for men versus women), it's a lot more likely that you'll be in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex at any given time. That's true with most bisexual people I know, and people tend to identify your sexuality by your current or last relationship.

I suspect that one reason we find more gay or bi trans folks on forums like this than in the total trans population is just that there aren't quite as many ongoing complications for purely straight trans people. It's not that they won't run into trans phobia or are immune from casual bigotry and the like, but hetero relationships as such aren't suspicious and problematic to the mainstream like same-sex ones. Those of us who are in or who want to be in same-sex relationships are going to end up congregating more simply because we do (or will) share an extra dimension of social challenge to deal with, and it's not surprising that a seed of trans people with same-sex desires will attract more.

If there aren't forums that focus more exclusively on the needs (and wants) of trans people in opposite-sex relationships, there's an opening there. I'll bet it could do some folks a lot of good, and I don't mean that sarcastically at all.

Count me in, in the meantime, as another currently male-bodied person who just isn't comfortable around a lot of men, even ones I know and have great confidence. I don't like living in a testerone- and adrenaline-fueled world so much. Women have been better for me in the matters of deepest trust and companionship. I've had both male and female lovers, and am prepared to say plenty of good things about the romantic and sexual potential in male bodies, but...it's not where my heart is.

 Hi  :P

:)don't worry I'm mtf lesbian, too :)

Anna :P

Hi I am La Tosha from Detroit, I just wanted to say hi and hugs, and I am a 38 yo preop ts who is also proud to be lesbian.

Quote from: samantha1976ts on January 16, 2009, 06:36:15 PM
i have always been attracted to female gender and never really for the male gender, not to say i havent crossed the tracks once, i hated it and found that i wasnt gay or attracted to males..                                                                                                     I am transgender and born in the wrong body and I hate what I was born as, but me wanting to be female and still wanting to be with other females how can that be that i feel that way? and is that even possible?
I dont' know anyone that has the same problem, or atleast i have not met anyone, even online, so i feel alone on this and thats why i started this topic.
If your out there your not alone let me know..
All feed back welcome hepl me get some in sight..

LOL! Male to Female Transsexual lesbian?! IMAO! You created this post to crack a joke and make us laugh right or are you really serious? If you're serious then I would say it's the first really ever I'm hearing this.

Quote from: Shelina on July 11, 2009, 07:35:21 PM
LOL! Male to Female Transsexual lesbian?! IMAO! You created this post to crack a joke and make us laugh right or are you really serious? If you're serious then I would say it's the first really ever I'm hearing this.

Now I've got to ask.  Are YOU serious?  Is it really the first time you've heard that sexual orientation & gender identity are two completely different things?  Though I'm hetero, there are many trans women that are lesbian, bisexual & asexual...what is so funny about that?

Quote from: Shelina on July 11, 2009, 07:35:21 PM
LOL! Male to Female Transsexual lesbian?! IMAO! You created this post to crack a joke and make us laugh right or are you really serious? If you're serious then I would say it's the first really ever I'm hearing this.

My girlfriend is a male to female transsexual lesbian.  What, may I ask, is so funny or strange about that?

Quote from: Leslie on July 11, 2009, 07:44:03 PM
Now I've got to ask.  Are YOU serious?  Is it really the first time you've heard that sexual orientation & gender identity are two completely different things?  Though I'm hetero, there are many trans women that are lesbian, bisexual & asexual...what is so funny about that?

M2F Trans here but 'Straight', LOL! Well, cos most of us struggle all of our lives to become woman to finally be able to attract males but here the person could have already attracted females by staying male already. Why he needs to become female to have affair with females, I don't get this part.

Yet I am uncertain if he is trying to attract genetic females or trans women. A genetic straight female would go only with a male and a transwoman would go with male as well. A genetic female might go with him unless she's lesbian herself but now knowing she 'was' a male, would she still want it? Now about transwoman, transwomen is most extreme form of homosexuality/feminity and I personally fall into that category and will a transwoman go with another transwoman, this I NEVER heard to be honest, so forgive me if I offended anyone cos we learn new things everyday.

This has been said in another forum topic in the FTM section, but not transitioning and having a straight relationship with a woman isn't the same as having a lesbian relationship.

Do we want to have relationships like everyone else? Of course... but I'm sure it's not the sole reason.

Quote from: Shelina on July 11, 2009, 08:00:30 PM
M2F Trans here but 'Straight', LOL! Well, cos most of us struggle all of our lives to become woman to finally be able to attract males but here the person could have already attracted females by staying male already. Why he needs to become female to have affair with females, I don't get this part.

Yet I am uncertain if he is trying to attract genetic females or trans women. A genetic straight female would go only with a male and a transwoman would go with male as well. A genetic female might go with him unless she's lesbian herself but now knowing she 'was' a male, would she still want it? Now about transwoman, transwomen is most extreme form of homosexuality/feminity and I personally fall into that category and will a transwoman go with another transwoman, this I NEVER heard to be honest, so forgive me if I offended anyone cos we learn new things everyday.

If you like guys so much, why bother transitioning? I bet plenty of gay guys out there would love to jump your bones, pre-transition. They are probably easier to find than the straight guys who want to date a "->-bleeped-<-."

Oh, because your gender and your sexuality aren't identical? Because you don't want to be someone's "boyfriend"? Wow, go figure. That's how I feel too. Except I dig girls.

You really need to get out more. About half of trans people are not straight. Including "early transitioners." Frankly, except that I've seen it so often that I'm just used to it, anyone, regardless their gender, who wants to date guys makes me "lmao." Seriously, guys? Ew.

A trans woman might be trying to attract men or lesbians, whether cis or trans. There are plenty of trans-trans relationships, both gay and straight.

Please try to rid your mind of these prejudices, lest others prejudge you.

Also: epic pronoun fail. Whether a woman is trans, cis, old, young, rich, poor, African, Eurpoean, Polynesian, multilingual, redheaded, or bipolar, you ought to refer to her with female pronouns: "she," "her", "hers," etc. No more h-bombs, capisce?

Dearest Samantha,

Listen sweetie, sexual orientation and gender identity are really completely separate from themselves. One may identify as female, and be attracted to females as well. This is not unusual and one should think that there is a problem here. There is a tendancy to feel that hey... I am a woman so therefore I must be attracted to men. Well not so necessarily. Simply this hon, you can be yourself and be attracted to anyone who attracts you. There are no rules on this anyway.
For what it is worth Samantha, my gender identity is female (I am MTF) and my sexual orientation is also towards females (for the most part).

So hon, you are not alone sweetie.

You are very normal

HUGS hon

Brenda

People don't transition to be able to attract someone of the opposite sex!  Transition isn't some random thing people do to find a date more easily!  That's completely and utterly false, maybe YOU became a woman to attract men more easily but for most people that's the last thing on their minds.  Gender identity isn't about "what's the easiest way for me to have sex with who I want to."  That's one of the most ignorant things I've ever read here.

Transsexuality is NOT an extreme form of homosexuality.  That is FALSE.  In fact, that's the kind of propaganda that's spread by bigots to discredit the entire LGBTQA community.  But it could not be more wrong.

I mean, honestly.  I'm a gay woman.  Should I suddenly want to be a man JUST so that it's easier for me to date women?  Please.

I suppose for mtf transexuals, you have to look at our roots.  Being brought up as a boy I can say that theres alot of pressure to be "straight" "normal" ...ad nauseum. lol.  So maybe theres still that level of comfort being with a female even post transition. 

ANd if there is still that drive or attraction to females, who cares.

Personally I don't consider myself to be gay, but theres aspects of being with another female that I do find exciting or just down right fun.  I also do enjoy what Laura talks about earlier, being held by a man and that strength and perceived security.

So to each their own. 

---

Post Merge: July 11, 2009, 11:52:28 PM

---

It is difficult being an MtF transsexual who is straight.  I've had so many men I've dated who tell me I'm such a good match for them.... who wind up hating me because I'm trans.  Sometimes they don't even believe me when I tell them.  I met another MtF who was bisexual but I just can't be attracted to her like that.  We're still friends.  I feel I need a man in my life, not a woman.  But I'm sure a woman would accept me more, just like my friend.

Whether you are lesbian or straight or whatever, there is going to be so many freaking hurdles.  At least the lesbians have girl power.  I'm out here in straight people's world being made to feel like I'm deceiving men for the hell of it.

Sorry, I'm just really sad right now.

We all have our personal reasons for transitioning. Me I am transitioning because:

1. I'm female in my head.
2. To attract straight men sexually.
3. To be loved by straight men emotionally.

I could have attracted males staying as I am by staying male but the problem is I attract gays or bisexuals and this is not what I want. For me gays are 'sisters' to me no matter how masculine they behave. I want 100% straight men only. Half of my life is already ->-bleeped-<-ed up, attempted suicided several times cos I lost EVERYONE but really EVERYONE I love for the same reason that I am not female. And this is the reason I need to transition into female to attract straight men. Hope you got my point now.

We got your point, but:

Quote1. I'm female in my head.

you listed that first. That is why lesbian transsexual women transition too. Because they are female first and foremost. Who they f is secondary to that.

i think some transsexuality 101 lessons wouldn't hurt:

Quote from: Natasha on January 19, 2009, 12:06:39 AM
Transsexuality 101

"For simplicity, a transsexual is a person whose inner sense of gender identity and brain patterns are completely the opposite of what physical form they are born into. This is a recognized medical condition which is completely unrelated to sexuality or sexual preference at all, but unfortunately society sees only brazen gay and bisexual people out there using gender bending to express their sexuality and assumes this is what transsexuals are too. A real transsexual has no more in common with a drag queen, gay or bisexual person than they do with a chimpanzee! They have a deep basic incongruity between their inner identity and their physical form which can only best be expressed as something which is within their very soul. Transsexuality occurs in equal numbers across born male and born female people. Estimates are that approximately 1 in 30,000 people are born with the condition."

http://www.breesaffirmation.org/Transsexuality.htm (http://www.breesaffirmation.org/Transsexuality.htm)

Quote from: Shelina on July 12, 2009, 09:37:15 AM
We all have our personal reasons for transitioning. Me I am transitioning because:

1. I'm female in my head.
2. To attract straight men sexually.
3. To be loved by straight men emotionally.

I could have attracted males staying as I am by staying male but the problem is I attract gays or bisexuals and this is not what I want. For me gays are 'sisters' to me no matter how masculine they behave. I want 100% straight men only. Half of my life is already ->-bleeped-<-ed up, attempted suicided several times cos I lost EVERYONE but really EVERYONE I love for the same reason that I am not female. And this is the reason I need to transition into female to attract straight men. Hope you got my point now.

You just answered your own question. You want a 100% straight man, not a gay one. Is it not so strange to think that maybe they don't want a straight woman but a 100% lesbian woman?

Bernii is correct. Sexual orientation and gender are two different things. I don't know. Why are leafs green? Why does poop stink? Why are all we CDs photo buffs? Because it just is.

Quote from: Shelina on July 12, 2009, 09:37:15 AM
We all have our personal reasons for transitioning. Me I am transitioning because:

1. I'm female in my head.
2. To attract straight men sexually.
3. To be loved by straight men emotionally.


I could have attracted males staying as I am by staying male but the problem is I attract gays or bisexuals and this is not what I want. For me gays are 'sisters' to me no matter how masculine they behave. I want 100% straight men only. Half of my life is already ->-bleeped-<-ed up, attempted suicided several times cos I lost EVERYONE but really EVERYONE I love for the same reason that I am not female. And this is the reason I need to transition into female to attract straight men. Hope you got my point now.

Good, now we're getting somewhere. As for me, I am transitioning because:

1.  I'm female in my head.
2. To attract lesbian women sexually.
3. To be loved by lesbian women emotionally.

I could have attracted females staying as I am (was) but the problem is I attract straight women (or the occasional bisexual if I'm really lucky) and this is not what I want. For me, straight women are "sisters" no matter how they behave. I want 100% lesbian relationships only. Half of my life is already ->-bleeped-<-ed up, suicidal thoughts, with the only thing keeping me going the possibility of transition, practically no friends and no close friends before I was 20 and difficult relationships even after that, when gender didn't matter quite as much, but still completely unable to be in romantic relationships, all for the same reason, that I wasn't outwardly female. And this is the reason I transition, to be a lesbian woman and have romantic relationships with other lesbian women and friendships with other women as women and not as some guy they can't share things with because "he" is a "guy." That's not who I am.

Hope you got my point now.

I always got your point, you know. You were the one who was confused about how someone can be a trans lesbian. I suspect that you see homosexual relationships as inferior to heterosexual ones. I think that's really sad. I also think you don't value gay people as full members of their gender class; you pretty much said that. I think that's really sad too. A gay man is every bit as much a man as a straight man. Just because you were raised male, but weren't, doesn't mean that there aren't gay men completely and rightly secure in their gender role; the same goes for lesbians. Please try to overcome these apparent prejudices against gay people.

I know exactly how you feel, I am a MTF also & I have been married for 3+ years now, & I have a 2 year old son.

This is a good thread.

I was freaked out the first time a MTF showed interest in me, let's just say I was NOT interested and remain NOT interested, fairly recently 6-8 months ago) I've had MTFs show interest in me and well, my reaction is Eww. But, seeing how many of my FTM brothers are interested in other FTMs and in bio-males, I guess it makes sense. Somehow there's a difference between opposite genders relating, and same genders. I'm a plain old straight guy who got stuck with a female body, now doing something about it, and I like girls! Especially streight girls. I'm very simple that way. But at least I think I can understand the idea of wanting to become male and be with males, or become female and be with females.

There's something to be said about the percentages ... as a lesbian you're "hunting ground" is something like 5% of the population, as a gay male probably 20% of males since they're generally more flexible "No I'm not gay I just poke guys once in a while" lol. I'm gonna love being on the fat end of the percentages myself, I've seen straight girls look at me interestedly so many times then get disappointed when they saw I was another chick, Oh darn I can almost hear them saying.

Just understand in your case that a lot of lesbians will NOT understand and most will not be interested, and no amount of body mods and training will earn you an automatic in.

I'm currently in a very amazing relationship, with a very amazing lesbian.  Who is very much nuts about me.  And vice versa.

So I'm not sure I agree with Alex_C's assessment.  Everything just depends on the people involved.

We actually don't disagree as much as you think, if at all, you're lucky to find someone so compatible.

Sadly, I"m gonna get some slings and arrows for this, but with me I think this is the case.

Frankly when they're a foot taller than me and want to sweep me up in their arms, me no like.

:icon_female: :icon_blahblah:

Err, no, that's the simple truth. I"m 5'4", and no matter how hard I hit the T and free weights I'll never have anything like a real peepee. To many I won't be a real man.

Do I expect ALL women to consider me desirable? Heck no! Do I hope that SOME will? I think that's a realistic expectation. And likewise, a given MTF can expect SOME lesbians to find them hot, just not ALL lesbians.

This is all so basic I can't believe it has to be explained.

Quote from: Alex_C on September 06, 2009, 05:09:23 PM
This is all so basic I can't believe it has to be explained.

You don't have to be rude.  Everyone is entitled to their preferences, but if someone, for example, said how they didn't want to date the Irish, "ewww", that would be offensive to Irish people because "eww" implies an immense disgust.  It's also rather childish.  No one is forcing you to like MtF.  But show some respect.

Quote from: Alex_C on September 06, 2009, 05:09:23 PM
Err, no, that's the simple truth. I"m 5'4", and no matter how hard I hit the T and free weights I'll never have anything like a real peepee. To many I won't be a real man.

Do I expect ALL women to consider me desirable? Heck no! Do I hope that SOME will? I think that's a realistic expectation. And likewise, a given MTF can expect SOME lesbians to find them hot, just not ALL lesbians.

This is all so basic I can't believe it has to be explained.

Well initially you said a lot of lesbians won't find a MTF woman attractive.  Which I thought was quite negative to say to a forum with a lot of MTFers.  And since anecdotally I haven't found that to be true at all.  I wanted to provide a counter point so people could have a more full idea.  Because honestly what is a FTM going to know about the dating chances of a MTF?

I mean if we're just going to make rash generalizations, I would imagine it's much harder for straight FTMs than straight MTFs.  It's much more competitive in terms of if you hit on me, you're probably one of maybe 10-15 guys that night.  Whereas if a girl hits on you, it's maybe one of one.  You have to initiate anything you want on that end.  And since you're shorter than a lot of the women you're hitting on, it's a bit of an uphill battle I would imagine.

I don't see any issue here, being lesbian means you prefer women, and that is not in contradiction with the fact that you prefer having a female body as well.

By a lot I mean just that, a lot won't find an MTF attractive. But that still leaves a number, perhaps a substantial number, who will.

I notice there are not a lot of straight bio-guys who are with women taller than they are, bigger stronger etc and no one criticizes their tastes or preferences.

Now that I am transitioning I'm noticing more and more biomen who are my haight or even shorter, and they seem to be with gals roughly their size or a bit shorter. There's quite a variety of people out there and sheesh some gals are 6' tall or taller and guess what? They're with tall guys.

And why am I shorter than "a lot of the girls I'm hitting on"?? Are you dreaming about me again? The truth is, I really don't hit on girls taller than I am.

And Eww goes all ways. Tons of women look at me and go Eww. Deal with it.

If you don't deal with it, you end up like one tall, large, MTF who used to go to the same bar I used to, and felt that she had gone through all this stuff and become female-bodied, I had an obligation to be interested in her. That's getting into crazy-stalker territory my friends. Her attitude that she had a RIGHT to my attention which made her a very EWW person to me. I actually stopped going to the bar because of this person pursuing me (and I think probably a few others).

No amount of surgery and no amount of political maneuvering and justification and postering can MAKE a person like you. You really can't make a person like you, they like you or they don't.

When someone says, "a lot of guys just don't find black chicks attractive," that's just plain old racist, aside from being totally irrelevant, since just as many don't find white chicks hot.

When you say, "a lot of lesbians won't find MtF's* attractive," first off, how the heck should you know? Second, is your problem with tall women (because you're short) or with women who look masculine (because you are into feminine women) or is it just plain old transphobia? Because it has to be one. If it's any of the first two, so be it. I'm happy being half a foot taller than you, and my girlfriend is only an inch shorter, and I like that we pretty much the same height, and she thinks I'm cute and I think she's cute, so everyone else can shove it

But if you say that because of your transphobia, get over it: Quit internalizing the negative images of trans people from the larger society and try to change those images.

What on earth does any of that have to do with this topic anyway? How does that have any bearing on whether someone is a lesbian or straight? Wouldn't the same argument apply if the topic were. "why am I a m2f straight girl?" Do you just have a problem with lesbians in general?

Also, based on my sample size of the handful of trans lesbians I've known or am, we seem to be getting plenty of action. I've had plenty more romantic possibilities opening up in the short time since I started living as a woman than I ever had before. You are totally wrong about those percentages too, and the notion that men are more likely to be "flexible," as you put it. Quite the contrary. I know lots more women who like to "taste the rainbow" than men. Lots and lots and lots more. As to the "body mod" statement, girls I know who have dated trans women have been rather pleased with the "permanent strap-on."

But thanks for playing. Better luck next time.




* Allow me to express my hatred for that terminology, "MtF" or "M2F" or whatever; I'm not an acronym, thank you. I'm a woman. If you must specify that I'm trans, you can say I'm a trans woman.

I do agree that m2f or mtf is inelegant.  But I suppose it's okay when discussing specific transgender issues within the trans community.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on September 08, 2009, 01:39:59 AM
I do agree that m2f or mtf is inelegant.  But I suppose it's okay when discussing specific transgender issues within the trans community.

Sure, it's just a term you use when you want to be specific, there is no need to be particularly upset about it.
For example "I'm a lesbian MTF" is shorter than "I am a lesbian woman born in a male body, transitioning to female".

But of course, I agree that, unless specifically required, once the transition is over, "MTF" can be dropped for "woman", because transition is only a transitory state after all.

"taste the rainbow" lol  ;D

The actuality is that if I met a PERSON, who was attractive to me, then I'd want to be with that PERSON. That's on a person-to-person basis. Theoretically there's some 5'2" MTF out there who'd bowl me over. But the mentality that I'm obligated to date a person because because because... BEEEEP you lose!

Quote from: Alex_C on September 08, 2009, 04:08:56 AM
But the mentality that I'm obligated to date a person because because because... BEEEEP you lose!

No one is saying that.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on September 08, 2009, 12:32:52 AM
When someone says, "a lot of guys just don't find black chicks attractive," that's just plain old racist, aside from being totally irrelevant, since just as many don't find white chicks hot.

It depends on their reasoning. It may or may not be racist.
It can be a preference. Some people like BBW's some don't. Some like tan girls, some don't. Some like tall, some like small. if you don't like redheads, you simply don't like redheads.

Quote from: Leslie Ann on September 08, 2009, 04:46:28 AM
It depends on their reasoning. It may or may not be racist.
It can be a preference. Some people like BBW's some don't. Some like tan girls, some don't. Some like tall, some like small. if you don't like redheads, you simply don't like redheads.

Exactly.  I prefer Arab men.  But I'm not wrinkling my nose and going "ewwww" if a white man or a Latino man or an Asian man is interested in me.  I wouldn't be dating if that were the case, lol.

Sarah - nope no one her but I've sure run into that in real life!

BTW you look a bit like my last GF and in a good way :-)

I knew that I'd already thrown in my two-pennorth on this subject somewhere, but couldn't find it until now - finally located it on another forum:-

I functioned adequately as a heterosexual male and have always fancied women only.
I've had half a dozen or so sexual experiences with guys, but it never clicked as Right with me. They happened because I was horny and broadminded enough to think "What the hell..... maybe it'll be fun..." when opportunities and situations arose.
I didn't fancy the guys concerned - they were just there at that moment and not UNattractive.
With the later ones, I was kind of trying TO like it 'cos I thought "Well....this is probably what I should be doing" since I secretly wanted to be a girl and all.....

I'd NEVER actually fancied a guy in my life. I could look at some guys, or film-stars and think "Yeah..... I can see why women find him so attractive" - but I didn't actually feel it myself at all, it was just a dispassionate assessment and that's how it's been until age 54.

Then....... about nine months into transition, but pre-hormones, I got chatting to a guy one night who had by chance wandered into the place where I was at a trans-group meeting. He had no agenda there, had arrived by accident and was just sat quietly in a corner sipping his drink and watching events out of idle curiosity and a lack of anything better to do.

I went over to chat to him because I thought he had come for help and was too shy to speak up  :P
I soon realised the situation, but he was interesting and I stayed because we had a great dialogue going and were simply both enjoying the chat.
.... about an hour in, I suddenly thought "Oh my god - I FANCY this guy!"
...and I really really did. :o The first time ever, and I never believed it could or would ever happen.
That thought was immediately followed by "....but my body's wrong! "  :'( ... and that's another first - the first time that I've felt that feeling SO intensely and clearly and in that way.
I did fancy him. I did NOT want a gay-male relationship. I wanted him as a woman and the fact that I wasn't and couldn't almost made me burst into tears there and then, mid sentence. I had to flee to the loo and regain control.
Nothing happened between us - though it could have if I'd chosen 'cos he was mine, hooked and landed.... but it simply wasn't right for me, so we enjoyed each others company for a while longer and left.

I'd been propositioned many times before that night and have been many times in the year since by perfectly presentable, attractive guys but I'm not interested, not in the least attracted to them, just like I never have been all my life.
It was HIM ..... he was the one

So..... there you have it.
What little sex-drive I do have is solely towards girls, but I've had the startling revelation that given the right guy ....... maybe I'm not a lesbian after all  ;)

Quote from: Alex_C on September 08, 2009, 04:08:56 AM
The actuality is that if I met a PERSON, who was attractive to me, then I'd want to be with that PERSON. That's on a person-to-person basis. Theoretically there's some 5'2" MTF out there who'd bowl me over. But the mentality that I'm obligated to date a person because because because... BEEEEP you lose!

Well, gee. If you could point to a single place where I told you whom you are obligated to date, I would be quite surprised.

I gather your problem is that you don't like dating women taller than you. That's some tough luck for you, and a nice benefit to being lesbian, given that I'm trans: I don't have to worry about dating insecure guys who want a girlfriend shorter than them (i.e., most guys I have ever met). Alas for you, you only get to date the small fraction of the straight female population under 5'2", whereas I get to date any lesbian I'd like to, regardless her height. Bonus!

Quote from: Leslie AnnIt depends on their reasoning. It may or may not be racist.
It can be a preference. Some people like BBW's some don't. Some like tan girls, some don't. Some like tall, some like small. if you don't like redheads, you simply don't like redheads.

You missed my point utterly. If someone says, "I'm not into black chicks," that may or may not indicate racism; it might also indicate some peculiarities of their sexuality. Though racism is not an unlikely candidate. But when, given their distaste for black chicks, makes a sweeping statement that "A lot of guys aren't into black chicks" -- insinuating that their peculiarities of attraction are normal and common and objective (based on the object of the attraction or lack thereof, rather than the subject), then that is a racist way of describing one's own sexual preferences.

In short: never say "a lot of people" when what you really mean is "I."

Quote from: Alex_C on September 08, 2009, 02:16:27 PM

BTW you look a bit like my last GF and in a good way :-)

Haha.  You're the third person in the past two months to tell me that.

Weird.

Samantha, I know exactly what your going through. I have always been attracted to girls(more specifically, lesbians) and even dated a girl for 3 years who later came out to me(she is 100% my best friend). And I didn't know why until recently. Not only am I female, but a lesbian as well. Not merely attracted to women, but lesbians. message or email me if you want to talk more about this

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on September 09, 2009, 03:22:18 AM
Haha.  You're the third person in the past two months to tell me that.

Weird.

wow!!! are you a MTF?

pretty and dimpleee ^_^

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:30:50 PM
I don't pretend to understand, but I put it down to either nurture, or autogynaphobic / fetishisistic aspects of M2F transsexuality ?

I have to admit that I was more than a bit taken aback by this statement. Congratulations on giving in to Bailey and Blanchards of the world! As a MTF lesbian, and was deeply offended by this statement. My sexual orientation is separate from my gender identity, and my identity as a lesbian woman is NOT the result of nurture or fetish. Years ago, I thought my female gender identity meant I should be with men, this was long before I understood gender identity and sexual orientation. I tried it, and hated it. To me, men are a big turn off.
    I just find it interesting that a trans person would pass such a harsh judgment. My transition has nothing to do with any kind of fetish, it has everything to do with my female gender identity. The fact that I am a lesbian is secondary. I don't understand wanting to be with men, but I do not classify you into the "gay man" box that some schools of thought would seek to classify you. Instead I celebrate the diversity of trans people.
   On a related note, not to say that your statements come from this place, but I have seen a lot of homophobia from straight identified trans women. I'm curious about where this comes from, and why it is so prevalent. I guess guess having grown up practically in the middle of the Castro district in San Francisco I am very comfortable with all identities. Others actually have little or no contact with gay and lesbian people.

As a bisexual woman I also took offence.

I think the reason why it's more common for trans women to be lesbian or bi is because if a trans woman is out about her transness, she's more likely to be out about her sexual orientation. Also, I think some of it may be because of a general aversion to the male body due to gender dysphoria.

Also... I heard somewhere (I don't remember where) that the sexual orientations of trans women are about the same proportion as that of cis women, and perhaps lesbian and bi women are just a lot more visible in the trans community.

I don't like the whole idea of transitioning and being a homosexual after.

Sorry to jump into this thread so late. I do hop the point I would like to make hasn't alredy been done.

Just as most ambidextrous people are most likely left handed but been forced to use their right, perhaps many people who see themselves as bisexual, are gay but pushed into a hetro mold early on.

This is just a suggestion. I don't personally see myself as bisexual.

I grew up in a sex positive environment and was encouraged to be open about being gay. My family was more concerned I would get involved in hetero relationships and find out I was gay later in life. They worried about me toying with the affections of the girls.
This tact my folks took worked about as well as telling a gay teen they should be strait.

I am bisexual, I am 100% positive my bisexuality is a natural state of being I was born into. Not a learned behaivior.

I tried to be gay, I tried to be strait and it failed both ways, because I am bisexual.

I apologise cynthialee. I can see the suggestion could have been offensive and that was not my intention.

I married a woman and have been married for many years. We are both very happe together. I don't see my self as bisexual. I see us both, coming together and staying for the companship, which to my mind, is more rewarding than sex ever could be.

It was extremely difficult to form relationship with men. They, for the most part, seemed more interested in living the gay life and couldn't cope with me as recesive.

I was and am, not interested in the gay life. I just want a normal life.

If society had ben more accepting then, as it seems to be aproaching now, I would have saved up for and taken the ops to change.

I fully accept that, for some, their sexuality is not the sae as mine. It certainly in't my place to judge others. Goodness knows I don't have much call, given what I wanted.

It was just a proposition. Perhaps for some.

Quote from: accord03 on June 29, 2010, 08:16:03 AM
I don't like the whole idea of transitioning and being a homosexual after.

Why? It isn't like we really have control over our gender identity or our sexual orientation. That would be the equivalent of saying you 'don't like the idea of being black in America', you can't choose where you were born or your skin color either.

I have to admit though, If I had been attracted to men, it's possible I would have come to terms with who I am earlier, but then again maybe not, perhaps I would have found some other thing to attempt to convince myself that I wasn't the way I am. I cannot choose how I am, and I have accepted this, so what I am trans and attracted to women exclusively? There are far worse things one could be.

It took me years to resolve being trans and being primarily attracted to women. (still like boys but girls are best!)

I figured because I like girls I shouldn't transition because being a dude makes finding a female mate easier.

Just doesnt work. I am a woman, not a man. Regardless of the outer shell.

Quote from: TheAetherealMeadow on June 29, 2010, 05:59:36 AM
Also, I think some of it may be because of a general aversion to the male body due to gender dysphoria.

I find this argument kind of interesting, because for me it's the total reverse.

I'm straight, not bi, so I'm not really interested in girls to begin with, but if I were, I think I'd find that very difficult because of how hard it would be for me not to feel a sense of envy at what they had that I didn't (a normal life history). I don't have that problem with guys because although I envy their normality, I don't envy anything about them or their lives.

But I don't feel any aversion of the male body, I just don't want mine, lol.


On a broader note though, I don't see any issue at all with the concept that an M2F could also be gay, although I do think it's highly insincere to argue that gender identity and sexual orientation are entirely unrelated.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on June 29, 2010, 04:39:05 PM
I find this argument kind of interesting, because for me it's the total reverse.

I'm straight, not bi, so I'm not really interested in girls to begin with, but if I were, I think I'd find that very difficult because of how hard it would be for me not to feel a sense of envy at what they had that I didn't (a normal life history). I don't have that problem with guys because although I envy their normality, I don't envy anything about them or their lives.

But I don't feel any aversion of the male body, I just don't want mine, lol.


On a broader note though, I don't see any issue at all with the concept that an M2F could also be gay, although I do think it's highly insincere to argue that gender identity and sexual orientation are entirely unrelated.

As a trans lesbian, what you say rings true, especially the part I put in bold. I don't feel any aversion to the male body either, as long as it's not mine -- or my lover's!

I also agree that sexuality and gender are deeply related. They certainly are for me.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on June 29, 2010, 08:42:13 PM
I also agree that sexuality and gender are deeply related. They certainly are for me.

I am curious what you mean by this.  I don't disagree, mind you.  Actually I don't have a clear opinion on this one way or the other.

Quote from: accord03 on June 29, 2010, 08:16:03 AMI don't like the whole idea of transitioning and being a homosexual after.

Well, it's a good thing you're attracted to women, then, isn't it? You probably won't have to worry that the above scenario will happen to you.

Jen, for me it means a lot of different things. I think it means something different to everyone in the details, but mainly it's just that for almost everyone, gender and sexuality are relevant to each other. I could go on and on.

It's pretty common that straight people get validation in their gender identity through romantic and sexual relationships, with phrases like "becoming a real man" or "you make me feel like a natural woman." (I guess that makes Carole King an "autogynephile.") Well, I feel the same way: everyone wants to feel attractive to someone whom they are attracted to, and for me that means other women. For the record, that doesn't make me an "autogynephile" -- it makes me a "reasonably normal human."

There's a lot of culture, too. For straight people, especially straight cis people, their experience of learning gender roles revolves around the question of how to find a partner. For gay cis people, that can get really messed up. So many gay people, and especially lesbians, spend years trying to make straight relationships work, because they just figure that they don't quite understand what the big deal is, or they just haven't found the right man, or maybe women just aren't all that into sex anyway.

For me, it was the opposite: I figured that if everyone was right about the me being into girls (to my utter surprise), maybe I was a boy after all, and I tried hard to make that work. It's really a pity -- being a guy didn't do a damned thing to get girls interested in me. Somehow they all seemed to sense that I didn't want to be their boyfriend -- and didn't know how, anyway.

I don't know how much sense that all makes. I've been writing this while babysitting analysis jobs for work, so ... Basically, it boils down to the notion that my sexuality is a part of my gender and my gender is a part of my sexuality, even though it's quite reasonable to consider them as separate concepts.

But to anyone who might worry about the dread possibility of being one of them there homosex'ls -- it friggin' rocks! I'm not saying I'm the next Shane McCutcheon or anything-- far from it -- but I've definitely had a lot more luck in the last year of awkwardly lurching into full-time status while my life was falling apart around me, and later, putting the pieces back together. Somehow confident happy people seem to be a lot more attractive than haunted, timid shells. Who knew?

Also, by the way, that whole envy thing Ashley pointed out? It's so much better than it ever was before!

Okay, good night now, everybody! :-*

Yeah, it's good that I'm straight.

From my own perspective I think it is partly a question of conditioning and what you have tried and liked.

The fact that in my early life my somewhat ambiguous state lead me to be actively encouraged to experiment probably made identifying as bisexual more attractive.

If I had been born unambiguously female I would almost certainly never have tried a sexual encounter with a woman and therefore I would have identified happily as straight. In view of the social stigma towards same sex attractions I would simply have never chosen to try it, however having had that experience I would be silly to put the genie back into the bottle just for the sake of appearances - so I end up identifying as bi.

What I am saying is I think that it may be as simple as the statistics being artificially skewed towards bisexual and gay identification by our prior social conditioning.

Quote from: rejennyrated on June 30, 2010, 07:52:35 AM

What I am saying is I think that it may be as simple as the statistics being artificially skewed towards bisexual and gay identification by our prior social conditioning.

So is what you are saying: The reason why there are so few bisexual and gay identifying people in society at large is because of the social stigma preventing them from accepting/experimenting/understanding/knowing about their sexuality?

I think this is a pretty reasonable premise, but I wish there was a way to test it, but unless someone could get a pretty large sample group and somehow get them away from prejudice and stigma involving sexual preference and see how they develop.

Alyssa- I see what you mean.  I'm in a different boat with my sexuality, but I can relate to gender identity affecting it.

Avoiding TMI zone here, lol, but I could never imagine being with a guy before transition because a man would only remind me that my own body was wrong.  With women I would try to experience it vicariously through them, and I dunno if you've ever tried that, but it doesn't really work lol.  Also, it's mentally exhausting!  I hated sex because it took too much brain power lol, and also because of the inherent dishonesty that was going on.

My sexuality before transition was such a mess I still haven't quite made sense of it.  Fortunately, it really doesn't bother me much.  I was confused, so what? :)

I am with Jenny on this, I would have had no confusion with my sexuality, however, if I had been born female.

I have only ever TRULY been attracted to lesbian women. I find straight girls beautiful(don't get me wrong). That was how I knew this couldn't be a coincidence. I was born a man outwardly, but I KNOW I'm not only a woman, but a lesbian as well.

Early on in my transition, I thought that I would end up being attracted to men. At the time, I understood very little about gender identity versus sexual orientation. As time went by, I realized I had not attraction to men, and that my attraction towards women grew stronger. There is no denying that I am a lesbian woman at this point. I have absolutely no desire to be with me at all. I am an out and proud lesbian woman.

It's interesting to hear a lot of different view points here, especially people who talk about not many people being out as gay or lesbian in general in society. I guess I have always lived in more open areas, where I have always known a lot of out gay, lesbian, and bi people. I have always had a significant number of gay and lesbian friends. For me, in my experience, there is little social stigma, and there are a lot of people who are out. This does vary widely depending on where you live, so geography can greatly skew statistics.

Quote from: Jen on June 30, 2010, 09:26:09 PM
...  I could never imagine being with a guy before transition because a man would only remind me that my own body was wrong.  With women I would try to experience it vicariously through them, and I dunno if you've ever tried that, but it doesn't really work lol.  Also, it's mentally exhausting!  I hated sex because it took too much brain power lol, and also because of the inherent dishonesty that was going on.

My sexuality before transition was such a mess I still haven't quite made sense of it.  Fortunately, it really doesn't bother me much.  I was confused, so what? :)

Wow, Jen. You and I are definitely sharing a wavelength somewhere. I always felt exactly the same.

Nowadays I don't find myself falling neatly within either hetero or homo sexual norms. I like both. That doesn't seem to be changing as I transition. I'm becoming doubtful it ever will. Binaries were never my friend, after all.

Not that it matters much, because I'm in a long-term relationship and happily monogamous. So this is really just a mental exercise for me. But quite honestly I could see myself happy in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex from my current partner just as well. I don't think I'm well served by over-thinking such matters. I wonder how much others who worry about this are helping themselves.

Like many posters before said, i think sex and sexual preference are completely different and determined by a number of factors, even physiology.  Let me give you my case which is unusual, even for me.

I was never gay when i lived as a man, i preferred going out with women although it still felt kind of different.  For example when i see a beautiful girl first i would compare myself to her instantly and feel depressed, then the Testosterone would kick in and even though your depressed, she is hot so lets go for it....  Testosterone is one hell of a drug btw...  The thought of two guys getting it on even now makes me kinda sick, not saying that i have any kind of feelings for people who do that stuff, just not for me.

HOWEVER, after HRT things started to change, i began to lose interest in women and started to be attracted to men.  Its unsual, and i cant explain it, but the more estrogen became the dominant hormone in my system the more i was attracted to men to the point where now going out with guys is as natural to me as going out with girls before.   The reason i am ok with this is because i look like a woman now as well as feel like one, not having to act like a man, so a guy and girl going out is pretty natural. My BF now is straight, which makes me happy because anything that wanders into the gay zone for me makes me lose interest instantly.  He also knows my past, and still wanted to be with me after i told him, which makes him even more special. 

So in my case i was straight as a guy, and now I am straight as girl, actually i was lesbian and now straight (since i was always a girl).  So you will end up with what you end up, it doesnt matter because either way it will feel normal to you, and thats what is important.

I know this is slightly of topic, but just to reply to Diana, transition has helped remove the ambiguity in my sexuality.  I think mostly just being in the correct role has given me a clearer picture because the friction I described in the last post is no more, plus maybe hormones had something to do with it as well.

Anyway, I find myself a fully hetero woman nowadays.  I am not one of those binary proponents, I love diversity in all it's wafting complexities.  The lot I was dealt, however, seems to have me fitting neatly into the binary anyway.

To me, I also really want to know if  I am a lesbian or straight girl, I can see my sex orientation is changing from woman to man while I am become more complete as woman. when I were pre-transition, I couldn't image I have sex with man as a man, but I feel sweet when I imaged I have sex with man as woman. does it mean I am straight? I am not sure now. I like to settle my sex identity first, which is the foundation to me, then I will settle my orientation, One by one. I seems pretty bad at multi-tasking, at least for sex issue.  :-\  Honestly,  I really like to know the answer NOW  :)

Patience is not an easy virtue to have, but you will find your clarity eventually. :)

I could see a lot of my own experience in your post, the only real difference is the fact that I wasn't attracted to girls became clear very quickly, but like you, whether I liked men came a bit slower.  Now there is no doubt about it anymore.

I am still rather taken aback that a lot of people get twisted over sexuality. Homophobia should be so last century, and what a lot of people seem to be talking about seems to stem from homophobia, or an inability to see past your own attractions.

I've felt I was straight, and now I feel I am gay, but in all instances it was with women. Interestingly the sex is very different and the attraction has changed tone since taking hormones, but I love women as much as ever. They are what get me hot and bothered.

Really I think all you can do is allow yourself to be attracted to who you are attracted to. Try them out for size. I think many of us don't realise that even straight girls get crushes on girls and straight guys with other guys and it does not make you gay. So many straight girls have a pash with their friends at the pub and they are not gay. I think this confuses things when you are unsure of your sexuality.

I fell in love a guy once and we could of had a fantastic homosexual relationship, thats what it would have felt like at the time. But in general guys don't float my boat, but I am attracted to being able to play a traditional female roll with a guy. As it is I found a woman who allows me the same feeling.

I do think sexuality and gender and behavior are related. You can't help but notice how fem many gay guys are or how masculine some gay women are. you don't get the same proportion of femy straight guys or really butch straight women. Sure, it could just be socialization, but so many gay people end up flaming despite their upbringing. I think it suggests that there is a correlation between gender behavior and sexuality, perhaps even identity and sexuality. You can't help but notice that most cis people are straight identified. Perhaps there are a lot of people who might fit in the 'bi curious' category but social pressure stops it. I suspect that there are a lot of people that are shades of pink, but not so strongly they feel conflicted over it.

The brain is not a hard and fast thing and it is in a finely tuned balance. It is not surprising that one aspect probably impacts on others. I suspect that similar mechanisms are at play that affect sexuality and gender identity. Just as sexuality is not always black and white neither is gender. Our gendered parts are at odds with our bodies, but perhaps the parts related to sexuality actually tend to correlate more with our birth bodies, i.e. if you have a male body to begin with you are more likely to be attracted to women, hence trans people are more likely to be gay than cis people.

I have a sneaking suspicion that those who are very strongly identified as straight, like on the edge of the spectrum (assuming there is one), will be in similar proportions to those who are strongly identified as gay. The rest of us probably just float more towards one end or the other and it is more convenient just to go with that end. Many people are just not open to other possibilities and they don't need to be as long as they are getting relationships that work for them.

Good post Nicky. I'll second that.

Quote from: amandax on July 07, 2010, 11:23:00 PM
To me, I also really want to know if  I am a lesbian or straight girl, I can see my sex orientation is changing from woman to man while I am become more complete as woman. when I were pre-transition, I couldn't image I have sex with man as a man, but I feel sweet when I imaged I have sex with man as woman. does it mean I am straight? I am not sure now. I like to settle my sex identity first, which is the foundation to me, then I will settle my orientation, One by one. I seems pretty bad at multi-tasking, at least for sex issue.  :-\  Honestly,  I really like to know the answer NOW  :)

Thats exactly how it was for me, when i started i could see both but the longer i was on hormones, and the lower my testosterone got the more it switched to men exclusively.  The important thing to me was pre-transition i too couldnt see myself with a man, however the thought of woman and man being together was always pleasant and i am a woman after all. 
As my thoughts of being with women lessened i feared that i couldnt be with a man because the thought of gay intimacy was not appetizing to me, but happily i found out that not only did being with a man feel more normal then being with a woman before but i was also more of a woman when loved by a man because i could show more of myself openly. 

The only issue for me, is if gets into a  "Gay" zone, if it feels like that at all, it ends, at least for me, i am not interested.  Since my BF is straight guy it never gets there, so i am happy and he is happy.   To him hes just a guy dating the girl he loves, and to me i am a girl dating the guy i love.  So far so good after 8 months.

A couple of you have mentioned this. Could you describe the "Gay" zone? Do you mean sex acts or something different? Is there something where you can tell you're being treated like a guy?

Quote from: Nero on July 08, 2010, 01:16:06 PM
A couple of you have mentioned this. Could you describe the "Gay" zone? Do you mean sex acts or something different? Is there something where you can tell you're being treated like a guy?

Its like anytime your asked to do something that a normal woman would be incapable or not want to do... An example would be to make love to a guy like a guy makes love to a girl.  Also, i have been intimate and i am pre-op, but the only way i can enjoy any of it is to imagine all my parts are different downstairs wise and to do this i have to close my eyes, because if for any instant i see anything male that is part of my body, thats the end of it, i just cant continue.  Right now i prefer not to be intimate until SRS, where i can fully enjoy the experience.

As I am married to the love of my life I have sex. It isn't ideal in it's curent form but GRS is on the horizon...

I highly doubt I would be sexualy active if I wasn't married to my wife Sevan. As my spouse is an androgyne I think that makes it much easier. A cismale or cisfemale would probably trigger me alot more than I already have to deal with, and that would make sex impossible.

Quote from: Izumi on July 08, 2010, 01:26:55 PMIts like anytime your asked to do something that a normal woman would be incapable or not want to do... An example would be to make love to a guy like a guy makes love to a girl.

Yeah, I hear you. Most normal women I know aren't interested in smelly, hairy, clumsy, impatient sex partners either, and neither am I. I'm much more interested in the kind of sex that normal lesbian women have with each other.  >:-)

Seriously, intentional misinterpretations notwithstanding, I still don't get if you're being dysphoric or just plain homophobic. This business about "normal women" seems to imply the latter, but I'm guessing it's a combination. I don't care what turns you on; it really makes no difference to me -- though I'm certainly happy that you're willing to share the implications of your transition on your sexuality.

But you leave me with the impression, as do many others who have commented in this thread, that you have a problem with lesbians, gay men, bi- or pan-sexual people, and other people you don't regard as having "normal" sexuality.

I hope that I am mistaken.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 08, 2010, 02:49:09 PM
But you leave me with the impression, as do many others who have commented in this thread, that you have a problem with lesbians, gay men, bi- or pan-sexual people, and other people you don't regard as having "normal" sexuality.

I hope that I am mistaken.

I have no problem with them what-so-ever.  Just like you feel being with a man is distasteful to you, i also see two men or two women getting it on as something i dont want to try or get remotely into, its a personal thing, i have gay and lesbian friends, i dont care what they do in the privacy of their bedrooms, they are free to do so, they understand that i am not into that, and we still get along great.  I like people for who they are, and their personal lives are their own. 

Do i believe in LGB rights, sure i do, everyone should be treated fairly, there is no excuse for discriminating based on bias alone, without some kind of proof they are hurting others by the act.

I do agree with some people that sexuality is probably tangentially related to gender just because before transition I could not have made sex work with a guy and I think my dysphoria was a part of that, certainly not fear of being gay.  So I don't really think that belief on it's own implies homophobia, phrases like "normal women" on the other hand... lol

A quick digression, I think the reason the murkiness of my sexuality in the past doesn't bother me is I could care less if I turned out to be a lesbian.

Anyway, the proof gender and sexuality are not directly related is similar to what Nicky said, flaming gay guys see themselves as men, butch lesbians see themselves as women.

this is such a wildly complicated issue for me.

First and above all, i'm in a loving relationship with a woman who's been with me 20 years - emotionally i do not want to betray that relationship and i still find sex with her rewarding. As long as i still unfortunately have a penis, I'd be willing to use it on her behalf, even to the point of taking viagra or whatever to meet her needs. Iwould rather it be gone but as long as it's there anyway, I don't mind mentally assigning it the role of "strap-on" and using it.

All that said, if I lay that complication aside and look at things in the abstract, it's still pretty complicated.

My vision of myself - the sort of person I believe I am supposed to be (making no claims that this is typical or stereotypical) is of a "girly-girl" - submissive, dependent, "helpless"...in many ways a "bimbo" (albeit not lacking in intelligence) - a lot of the things which make up the stereotype women have been fighting against. I understand why they do and have no issue with it but that's just how I see me.

Bound up in that is the idea of having a big strong guy to take care of me. another aspect of that is that the sort of person I imagine myself to be is kinda...well...slutty. not to get into areas which violate the rules but i say that to illustrate that, again, it's tied pretty heavily into the idea that you really like to enjoy that thing that a man brings to the bedroom.

HOWEVER

At the same time, when i watch the world go by i inevitably look upon women as attractive, both in the sense of what I'd like to be and on a level of attraction. and when I look at the guys passing by, even the nice looking ones, I don't really see them as attractive...except when my mind wanders to...that part.

And when i read someone's account of finding their interest shifted from women only to men only as they transitioned i find myself HOPING this happens to me.

so i really don't know what the heck i am or where i'll end up. i guess for now you could say bi (I've preformed orally for a few guys and thoroughly enjoyed it) but i don't know what comes next.

I don't think we can really talk about the way people have sex based on their orientations. I mean I mentioned the sex has been different going from straight to gay, but a lot of that is to do with the way my body now reacts. To accomodate that, sex naturally changes.

But, some men are incredibly sensitive and 'girly' lovers, some are submissive, some love the long nights of foreplay and tantric love. Others just want to get in a get out. I've meet women that cover that range too and it did not have much to do with their orientation. I've meet straight woman that admitted they are not keen on penetation. Though perhaps there are trends ??? Correlation.

I've talked to gay women that have had sex with gay men and straight men and they tend to say gay men do tend to make love more like women then straight men tend to. 

Not everyone is sexually compatable regardless if your orientation matches, for example a submissive striaght guy would prefer a more dominant woman in the bedroom, two submissives have to work at it more.

adding to the point Nicky made, things are even more complicated by the fact that submissive and dominant acts are completely subjective as well: What one person sees as submissive another might not.

This whole thing is sort of difficult to talk about due to the extreme subjectivity of the subject. The truth of the matter is that both sex and gender identity tend to be extremely personal subjects, and while I don't feel that they are connected in my life, I only have my own frame of reference, and it would be foolish to assume the rest of the world has to be just like me.

Quote from: Nicky on July 08, 2010, 08:25:44 PM
Not everyone is sexually compatable regardless if your orientation matches, for example a submissive striaght guy would prefer a more dominant woman in the bedroom, two submissives have to work at it more.

Interesting thought.

Quote from: Izumi on July 08, 2010, 05:18:17 PM
I have no problem with them what-so-ever.  Just like you feel being with a man is distasteful to you, i also see two men or two women getting it on as something i dont want to try or get remotely into, its a personal thing, i have gay and lesbian friends, i dont care what they do in the privacy of their bedrooms, they are free to do so, they understand that i am not into that, and we still get along great.  I like people for who they are, and their personal lives are their own. 

Do i believe in LGB rights, sure i do, everyone should be treated fairly, there is no excuse for discriminating based on bias alone, without some kind of proof they are hurting others by the act.

Okay. Thanks for clarifying. :)

I think the original question, which was about transitioning, is perhaps more complicated than is obvious.

Transitioning to be a lesbian necessarily implies transitioning to be a woman. 

The answer then seems fairly simple: I'm a woman who wants to be with women as a woman.

Where it might get complicated, is in how much and what transitioning one wants to do.   For me, I do think SRS is necessary.  Some others, though, might feel some point prior to that is ok. 

Since the thread has been resurrected from the dead...

Quote from: Kim6 on January 24, 2009, 05:35:59 PM
I think the younger a person is the easier it is to be hetero-flexible.

Also the more complete transition is, the easier it is to be heterosexual.

I would say this is very much dependent on the individual.  I ran into MAJOR issues with the 'gender mills' in the late 80's when I was still in my teens precisely because I did NOT identify as heterosexual.  I had identified as a baby dyke from the point in life at which I recognized sexuality as a component of my life (ie. late middle school to early freshman year of high school).  I never had romantic or sexual thoughts with persons of either sex AS my birth sex.  Put me firmly in the camp of sex and gender being separate concepts, something I believed long before I took a similarly titled sociology class as an undergrad... 

In the few decades that have passed since then, nothing has changed to make me even contemplate 'being' heterosexual.  And I don't know that 'transition' gets more complete than being ~15 years post-op... 

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:47:34 PM
Sure, but why so many M2F women who either have wives or girlfriends, or are attracted to other women, lesbian far far more than the average population ?

There is the assumption in there that there really is a difference. Why do you believe that ciswomen are less attracted to other women? Women's sexuality is very fluid, and most married women have had feelings that made them wonder if they were lesbian. If they are not "out" about that, it says something more about our society than it does about women's degree of attraction.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on January 16, 2009, 07:47:34 PM

This is what I have a really hard time understanding, as from my earliest teens my fantasies were always about being the girlfriend of a wonderful guy ...

laura x

Gender Identity (GI) and Sexual Orientation (SO) reside in two different and separate areas in the brain. So there could be:

GI female, SO likes male = homosexual female

GI female, SO likes female = heterosexual female (that seems to be you)

GI male, SO likes male = homosexual male

GI male, SO likes female = heterosexual male

This is living what you chromosomes and external genitalia says about you out of the equation. Then add to the mixture: GI: female and male, neither female or male; and SO: likes males and females, or does not like males and females.

Saying that most of Susan's MTF are one type or another based on some responses is inaccurate at best. Even the USA health department is struggling with definitions and statistics (or lack off). So, hoeny I do not think you are anything special, perhaps just a double mutant.

Kate D

I agree, I married a few years ago, trying to dispell my gender dysphoria. I was unsuccessful, gender dysphoria is part of myself and can't be erased.

I had immense difficulties to have intercourse as a male (but I managed to impregnate my wife and we got two kids) but it was definitely much easier and pleasurable for both of us to make it out the "lesbian" way.

Now that I'm living full time as a woman, I have an extramarital affair, with a woman. A woman who does not identify as a lesbian, but loves me (and reciprocally), as a woman.

So. Being MTF, being lesbian, are two unrelated things.

there's nothing wrong with which gender you are attracted to. i've just started my FTM transition. i identified as a lesbian for years. but i'm a man on the inside. i never knew about transgendered people till about 2 years ago. whether ur a mtf who likes chicks, a mtf who likes dudes, ftm who likes chicks or dudes or just plain gay lesbian bi or straight. there's nothing wrong with any of that. two humans in love is all i see. dosent matter if ur brain and ur body match. all that matters is who you are inside and who you love. so if you're a MTF and you like women, MORE POWER TO YOU. do WHATEVER makes you happy. dont listen to anyone who says otherwise. it's just ignorance. ;)

Quote from: TamTam on January 16, 2009, 07:34:55 PM
If women can be attracted to other women, why can't mtf women be attracted to other women?  I see no contradiction or strangeness. ??? :)

Same reason as always.

In the minds of many, we're not women, we're transwomen, and we somehow have a different standard.

Therapists ive found (before I realized psychiatry is barely more than a cult) all had a go at me for not dressing more feminine. And why? Why am I expected to dress so feminine that I would actually look out of place with a bunch of random women because of that way of dressing?

Cause they see us as different and apply different standards to us, and there's people in the trans community guilty of that way of thinking as well.

Personally I've found I'm somewhat pansexual (though I'm definitely more attracted to and have had more sexual relationships with guys)

As to why there's so many M2F lesbians? Dunno, does it really matter? I'm an individualist, I say just do your own thing and let other people do theirs.

i personaly am also a MTF trans gurl and i am lesbian too, i don;t think being one sex and being sexualy attracted to either the same sex or the oppsite sex or being trans for that matter are even linked, you are who you are.
              i could never be a man and be with another woman, it dosnt feel right to be i tried it once and i don;t want to experience it again but i did love her enough to actualy be a man for her but that slowly killed me inside and i ended up on depression tablets but i'm no longer on them.
              But that being said i feel anyone of any gender being it male, female, FTM, MTF, or just in the middle if you feel something for someone you should never let any of these get in your way, this is how i feel i identify as lesbian but if i felt that something when talking to a guy i would not dismiss it because he was a guy, just be yourself, if you like girls and you want to be a girl physicaly aswell as mentaly then go for it hun.
              I know i am, at the end of the day nobody picks who they fall in love with, your heart wants what it wants, just love yourself for who you are first and then others 2nd and your life can't go wrong, your a woman and you love women and if anyone has a problem with that then thats there problem not yours.
               I love being a girl and i love women plain and simple, lesbians love women they don't get questioned about it so why should we, just be yourself and love who u want to love :) xxx

I am also a m2f lesbian. when i was young, i had several girlfriends, one who was bi. watching her and her partner, i realized that i was curious about being female. so i became a m2f and kept my feelings for women. I think this is why

Quote from: samantha1976ts on January 16, 2009, 06:36:15 PM
i have always been attracted to female gender and never really for the male gender, not to say i havent crossed the tracks once, i hated it and found that i wasnt gay or attracted to males..                                                                                                     I am transgender and born in the wrong body and I hate what I was born as, but me wanting to be female and still wanting to be with other females how can that be that i feel that way? and is that even possible?
I dont' know anyone that has the same problem, or atleast i have not met anyone, even online, so i feel alone on this and thats why i started this topic.
If your out there your not alone let me know..
All feed back welcome hepl me get some in sight..

I'm the same way, doesn't seem to be too uncommon :p

Quote from: Victoriousseducer on August 17, 2011, 02:46:01 PM
I am also a m2f lesbian. when i was young, i had several girlfriends, one who was bi. watching her and her partner, i realized that i was curious about being female. so i became a m2f and kept my feelings for women. I think this is why

Same here! :D

Quote from: kate durcal on August 06, 2011, 07:15:14 PM
Gender Identity (GI) and Sexual Orientation (SO) reside in two different and separate areas in the brain. So there could be:

GI female, SO likes male = homosexual female

GI female, SO likes female = heterosexual female (that seems to be you)

GI male, SO likes male = homosexual male

GI male, SO likes female = heterosexual male

This is living what you chromosomes and external genitalia says about you out of the equation. Then add to the mixture: GI: female and male, neither female or male; and SO: likes males and females, or does not like males and females.

Saying that most of Susan's MTF are one type or another based on some responses is inaccurate at best. Even the USA health department is struggling with definitions and statistics (or lack off). So, hoeny I do not think you are anything special, perhaps just a double mutant.

Kate D

I think you have those backwards, Hetro would be girl likes boy and homo would be girl likes girl