I'm originally from Bulgaria but studying in the US. Before GRS I could have never dreamt to be stealth but it's really happening without any effort on my part. Different country, different college friends. A brand new life. It's a great feeling.
My question for those that are stealth is: are you happy as stealth & do you feel that you're keeping a secret?
My question for the rest of you: would you be happy as stealth & would you feel that you're keeping a secret?
Quote from: Valentina on January 02, 2010, 05:10:06 AMMy question for those that are stealth is: are you happy as stealth & do you feel that you're keeping a secret?
Total stealth is impossible to maintain. Sooner or later your doctor will know. Many feel the necessity to tell a partner about their past, and no matter how far you are from your past, it can pop up at any time unexpectedly.
For the first 15 years of my new life I was totally stealth with the exception of my doctor and my husband. Despite having moved often and living in a different part of the country, information from my medical file became the subject of gossip - thankfully my husband already knew so he wasn't blind-sided and was prepared to deflect the nasty comments. Since then, I have been "functionally stealth" and most people in my life do not know but many of my closest friends do. After 35 years on this side of the fence that seems to be the most comfortable for me.
Quote from: changling on January 02, 2010, 06:53:25 AM... wonder why others seem to be doing the same...maybe we need to connect with our kind ...
Human beings are social creatures and sooner or later everybody wants some kind of connection with others of a similar experience. Particularly for someone who is stealth, the online connection is one of the few available.
Nah, I don't think stealth is for me.
And yeah, I'd feel like I was hiding something. A whole chunk of what makes me the man I am.
So no, not my thing.
Quote from: Northern Jane on January 02, 2010, 09:21:36 AM
Human beings are social creatures and sooner or later everybody wants some kind of connection with others of a similar experience. Particularly for someone who is stealth, the online connection is one of the few available.
Great point. I'll admit I'm being somewhat hypocritical posting here, with my "transition and move on" rants lately, lol. But There are some questions and situations only you can provide insights on.
I tell people on a
"need to know" and sometimes
"gonna find out soon anyway" basis. But even then, it's just an
"oh, by the way..." footnote. I never "educate" or explain or justify, I just mention the fact that I changed my sex and leave it at that.
I don't think of it as hiding anything, unless we withhold the information when it's relevant (such as with a doctor). And I've found that the subject is much less interesting to "normal" people than it is to us anyway.
Was half stealth in the UK - meaning at home, and in my village no-one knew anything but at work they did because I'd transitioned there. I always wanted to be stealth, because I knew I could achieve it.
Moved abroad, and have moved jobs a couple of times. Now 100% stealth. Doctors notes were never transferred from the UK so even my current Doctor here in my new country knows nothing.
Been here 15 years and total stealth since day 1, but like some of you also keep coming to these forums, its really strange, and could be just the need for socializing. I don't know.
I am pre-op and like Matilda, I don't like the word 'Stealth' and for the same reasons.
One day I will be post-op and at that time I will be complete. Now I am a woman with a birth defect. After SRS I will just be complete in my mind. What the world thinks, knows or think they know, I could care less.
Janet
Stealth is just a word to describe the fact that people do not know ones past. I don't really like it myself but it's the word most people use.
I will not tell anyone (ever), because firstly it's my business, and absolutely no-one needs to know and secondly and more importantly the relationship dynamic is changed. I have experience of stealth and partial stealth so know what I'm talking about. In order to be stealth you have to lie and keep secrets and make up stories. I don't like it but the alternative is for me a non starter. If I had been open and out I would not have the job I have now, no matter how good my CV because most people are still transphobic.
Quote from: ius2avasasage on January 02, 2010, 03:51:01 PM
still have to wonder why i and others feel the need to seek contact with other transsexuals..
I haven't been down this road for a LONG time, but I saw the lights on when passing by, and thought I'd have a round or two. Only this time I noticed the
"May be habit forming" warning, so I left the engine running.
Sometimes the only way to truly let go of something is to hold it in your hands one last time.
Quote from: Valentina on January 02, 2010, 05:10:06 AM
My question for the rest of you: would you be happy as stealth & would you feel that you're keeping a secret?
Well I don't know but I feel like I'm keeping a secret now.
I don't really think stealth is for me though. When I'm transitioning, it might be unavoidable. Afterwards, I won't be very concerned and probably won't really be much reason not to tell people who I'm associated with.
Quote from: ius2avasasage on January 02, 2010, 08:13:08 PMbut no-one is any different..like the bio-world we all seem to be struggling with the same issues as they are in their worlds...none of us are any better, any wiser or anymore complete than anyone else.
Everyone is lonely and scared. The world is just a tangled mess of children pretending to be adults who've gotten over that.
But they never really do.
Well, these threads seem to cause controversy everytime they're discussed because there are people that make broad generalisations about everybody else without taking into consideration people's individual lives & thus invalidating their experiences. I wish people would speak for themselves & not for me & others in the group.
As for the 'why' people come here if they're now transitioned. There are many reasons why they do, but suggesting that a person isn't 'fullfilled' & 'mentally' female just because they still come here is dumb.
Some people have come here since before they transitioned. We've formed bonds with some of the people here & the site itself. Some people are part of Susan's staff. They come here to help the site grow much more than it already has.
Also let's not forget that this is a support site. Yes the main focus is the transgender community but if you take the time to look around. this site helps people with more issues than just transgender specific. People can ask questions, share their experiences, talk about anything they want, suicide, addiction, advice with relationships, the feelings they had just before GRS, GRS surgeons & tons of more topics.
People talk and solve problems together. That's why they come here. If there's a subject they don't want to talk about irl, they come here and discuss it.
People come here for support & to give support. That isn't 'trans' specific but being human.
As far as the 'trans' stuff itself, there comes a point where a transsexual history is just that, a history, part of one's past whether somebody visits a place like this or not.
I don't know about stealth but I would like to get amnesia around about a year post-op when things have healed and are functional, and just move on.
I am tired of hiding. Stealth is bull->-bleeped-<-, I think society needs to get over it than us trying to restrict ourselves and battle with paranoia all the time. How is it free expression of one self if you are always holding back? Stealth can be achieved but the subject will feel lonely and depressed at times. You always have to act around people when they ask if you are ever going to have kids, or when they talk about periods and other stuff or the guy you are seeing asks about your scars down there or people pinpointing to certain things they notice about you.
Did deep stealth in the 1980's Got bored with it!
Did "need to know" in the 1990's Got Bored with that too!
Since April 2005 when the Uk finally gave me a Birth cert with GIRL written on it (one of the first 200 ammendments issued) I simply couldn't care if people know or not... so I've simply stopped categorising myself.
It's an individual choice I guess and all of us must follow our own consciences and decide for ourselves what levels of disclosure we feel comfortable with. No one is wrong.
Yes, the April Ashley vs Corbett case really held back transsexuals in UK and Australia about amendment of their sex on birth certificate for many years until the Gender Recognition Act came into place, I can't believe how delayed it was just over one court case.
Quote from: Northern Jane on January 02, 2010, 09:21:36 AM
Human beings are social creatures and sooner or later everybody wants some kind of connection with others of a similar experience. Particularly for someone who is stealth, the online connection is one of the few available.
Thank you Jane, best post in a long time, I was totally stealth for a long time, Im an attractive woman, pass completely, I didn't need the grief when people know you are transexual ''not a real woman bla bla bla'' so I took the stealth route, but it can be lonely, so I needed to connect with others of similar experience, 1 of the reasons why I joined Susan's Place.
We are all human needing to connect, my Fiancé knows Im trans, but not his family, later in the year we'll probably get married, his sister resently wants to organise a hen night out for me before the wedding ''girl's night'' as she's going to be my Bridesmaid, but she doesn't know my past.
Its my past, its in the past, sometimes stealth gives a woman like me peace.
p
I kind of feel the same way. I don't wear a "kiss me I'm trans" button, but I really don't care who knows.
Quote from: rejennyrated on February 02, 2010, 05:34:43 PM
It's an individual choice I guess and all of us must follow our own consciences and decide for ourselves what levels of disclosure we feel comfortable with. No one is wrong.
This. or like my nan used to say: Your life is none of my business! ~smile~
Quote from: Matilda on January 02, 2010, 11:16:57 AM
"Stealth" suggests dishonesty. "Stealth" implies that "I am deluding myself into believing that I'm a woman". "Stealth" is a badly defined term & would be the correct one if I were something else (i.e., a man, etc} pretending to be female/a woman. My "secret" would be that I'm not "really" female/a woman but something else disguised as female/a woman. Totally untrue (in my case at least). I'm not "stealth". What I am is female, who I am is a woman, and no I don't feel obligated to tell people I used to be "something" I never was or felt myself to be. Plain and simple.
I know that there are some people in the "transgender community" who believe that... those of us who are not "out"/those of us who have completely assimilated into mainstream society/those of us who "don't tell the truth" about ourselves... are being "deceitful". It kind of makes me wonder what those people believe themselves to be and what their "truth" actually is.
It seems to me that any post-transition/post-SRS woman that would feel "sneaky", "untruthful", "deceptive", "fake", etc would have to consider herself to be... other than/less than/ different than... simply female/a woman.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi572.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fss161%2Fmatilda23%2F061.gif&hash=8f2301193b0dc73bb2e3c64f938f2048ea1a0591)
I really like this answer. I guess I don't understand why it's such an issue. ??? A lot of people don't go around giving out private information about themselves or their pasts, nor do they feel "dishonest" because they don't. You don't have to lie, but you don't have to always tell everything you know, either... sheesh. Like Matilda suggests the very idea behind the concept is one of deception. Though I am for a short while longer still pre-op, I do not feel in the least bit dishonest presenting myself as who I am (female) regardless of what's in my past, or in my pants. I do not now or ever claim or try to be "stealth". I just live my life without worrying about it and that seems to work for me.
I think people get too upset about this topic.
I think the term Northern Jane used "functionally stealth" is good and is sort of how I aim to be once everything settles.
I don't want to be shameful of my past or freaked out about getting read or any of that, but I don't see why the specifics of my past are anybody's business. I think inventing some elaborate back story and constantly guarding "my secret" would be stressful as hell... but that's me. However, I do not feel the least bit deceitful referring to my younger self as a "little girl," etc. I was a little girl! People just didn't know it at the time.
Tbh, I wouldn't even feel obligated to tell a man I dated about such details either, except I don't want to get murdered. Most people who get close to me will eventually be told, the rest of the world... well, the less of a #$*% I give of what they think, the better off I'll be.
Anyway, just do whatever works for you, that is my basic opinion on this.
P.S. I also liked Matilda's post.. a lot.
Well personally I'm transitioning to be female (with a private past) not to be a transsexual, that is just something I am in the meantime.
To me stealth is just a word with too much negative connotations attached to it. To me it means not openingly advertising your past. Deep Stealth is based on lying and deluding oneself though.
Post-op I'll be doing what ever word that has no negative connotations attached to it that means "not openingly advertising your past".
Quote from: Jen on February 03, 2010, 07:41:58 PM
I think people get too upset about this topic.
I think peeps get too upset about this topic when they're told how to live their lives, but besides that I think it's a good subject for discussion
QuoteYour life is none of my business!
I've got a more direct message. "My life is none of your business" :laugh:
Quote from: Valentina on February 04, 2010, 03:48:40 PM
I think peeps get too upset about this topic when they're told how to live their lives, but besides that I think it's a good subject for discussion
Definitely. :)
Quote from: Valentina on January 02, 2010, 05:10:06 AM
My question for those that are stealth is: are you happy as stealth & do you feel that you're keeping a secret?
My question for the rest of you: would you be happy as stealth & would you feel that you're keeping a secret?
secret? eeeek!!
Quote from: matilda"Stealth" suggests dishonesty. "Stealth" implies that "I am deluding myself into believing that I'm a woman". "Stealth" is a badly defined term & would be the correct one if I were something else (i.e., a man, etc} pretending to be female/a woman. My "secret" would be that I'm not "really" female/a woman but something else disguised as female/a woman. Totally untrue (in my case at least). I'm not "stealth". What I am is female, who I am is a woman, and no I don't feel obligated to tell people I used to be "something" I never was or felt myself to be. Plain and simple.
I know that there are some people in the "transgender community" who believe that... those of us who are not "out"/those of us who have completely assimilated into mainstream society/those of us who "don't tell the truth" about ourselves... are being "deceitful". It kind of makes me wonder what those people believe themselves to be and what their "truth" actually is.
It seems to me that any post-transition/post-SRS woman that would feel "sneaky", "untruthful", "deceptive", "fake", etc would have to consider herself to be... other than/less than/ different than... simply female/a woman.
this.
I still don't understand how stealth implies "false" or "fake" because the only thing the word itself means is concealed.
Can someone explain it to me please?
Quote from: Miniar on February 05, 2010, 07:06:47 AM
I still don't understand how stealth implies "false" or "fake" because the only thing the word itself means is concealed.
Can someone explain it to me please?
If a person can do it in such a way that they don't feel deceitful to themselves, then I don't suppose it is. I don't think anybody else's opinion about whether they are being fake or not really matters much.
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Shakespeare, Hamlet
I wouldn't ever presume to try saying something better than him.
I'm for stealth. I have to admit though, I am torn when I think about telling future partners.
Do you think it is necessary to tell a partner your past? If you do, why do you feel it necessary?
If you spent time in prison, would you tell the world? If you were raped, would you tell the world?
I don't think so, unless they had a need to know, and then you make that determination. The same is true about your medical past, and that is what we are talking about.
Some should take the lead and show the world that Transpeople exist. But for others it is time to settle in to a peaceful life free of the pain and anguish.
I would just be scared to not tell, in case he found out later and reacted violently.
Ok - the questions posed by Valerie-Elizabeth and Janet specifically.
Yes personally I think telling a partner is advisable, in just the same way that you might wish to tell them of anything else about your past. True love is about sharing and honesty, it is about connection. A life partner worth having will be the one person in the world with whom you can be absolutely honest and most truly yourself. If you can't trust and connect with them enough to tell them the inconvennient parts, your dark side if you like, then it isn't much of a relationship.
In regard to public stealth however, that is a very individual decision.
For myself I chose to go fully open a while back because I felt that it was time that those around me saw that, postop, we can become successful and fully integrated in society. The measure of my success in that is that although many people around me are perfectly well aware of my past, and although I make no effort at concealment, new people coming into my circle very rarely realise or are told about it unless by me. In other words though many people around me do know, it has ceased to be an issue or indeed anything they consider worth telling anyone else. To put it another way they now accept that a woman with a trans history really IS a woman at the deepest and truest level.
So from my personal perspective it has not been a choice between peace and being an uncomfortable trailblazer, sacrificing my life free of pain and anguish for the greater good. My life is already as peaceful and comfortable as it can get. If it wasn't I probably wouldn't be so keen to be seen for what I am nor would I be on sites like this.
It is precisely because I am well integrated into normal society that I am keen for others on both sides (those with no experience and those with a full trans history themselves) to see that far from being isolated and considered freakish a postop CAN be known for what she is and yet accepted on equal terms with a natal female!
Ironically I sometimes think that it is actually more difficult for those in the trans comunity to accept that fact than for those outside. But it is true I promise. You CAN have it both ways if you really want to.
But as I say, it's an individual decision and not one which any of us has the right to criticise others over. Each of us must do it the way we feel comfortable with.
That is really awesome Jenny. I am glad things have gone so well for you. I also just want to say that putting yourself out there like that really does help us all.
So thank you :).
Quote from: Janet Lynn on February 06, 2010, 12:57:15 AM
If you spent time in prison, would you tell the world? If you were raped, would you tell the world?
I don't think so, unless they had a need to know, and then you make that determination. The same is true about your medical past, and that is what we are talking about.
Some should take the lead and show the world that Transpeople exist. But for others it is time to settle in to a peaceful life free of the pain and anguish.
I couldn't agree more!
ME too.
It really depends on how big of a deal you see it being, if you see it as being as big as getting a wisdom tooth removed then why share it, sure it was a huge ordeal for you at the time but it was to only change a small part of you.
If you see it as a big deal and something that changed your life on a grand scale then yeah you will probably feel the need to sit someone down and go through it in detail and make sure they're 'cool' with it.
Personally it currently is a big deal for me but I think post-op I"ll be like "I was once a guy??? oooh yeah that's right lol!".. "yeah I had to have an op to fix a little complication, but all is good now meh". Too much playing down?? *shrugs*.
Quote from: Muffin on February 06, 2010, 07:37:51 PMToo much playing down?? *shrugs*.
No, not at all. That time "before" is fast becoming just a bad dream to me, and like any traumatic event we have a tendency to just want to forget it ever happened. How can you fault someone with PTSD for never wanting to be reminded again of the trauma?
I can look back now and understand how so many of those things that I was confused about and things I did all through my life were directly related to the affliction of GID. I know I've always been female, and I've known it at least since the first time that little 4 year old girl tried to shamefully hide that awful thing between her legs and was reprimanded for it. My life has now become as clear as glass. Some here perhaps had it easy, others suffered unspeakably.
The good news is, we survived. But I will never, ever know what it's like to be "normal", to be happy in the gender to which I was born, or to grow up without the horrible knowledge that I am wrong and should have been born something else. There's no possible way I can ever know, because I've
never known. So transitioning is doing a lot more for me than just correcting one mistake; it's correcting a lifetime of them. The past might have made me what I am today, but I don't have to let it make me what I'll be tomorrow.
Quote from: Muffin on February 06, 2010, 07:37:51 PM
It really depends on how big of a deal you see it being...
I don't think it is that big a deal either. But it is still nicer to be able to fully share the whole of your life experience with a partner.
And maybe I've been lucky with my partners but none of the four or five that I've had over my life has ever thought it was a big deal either. But in a funny way the simple act of sharing and the fact that I was willing to trust them did actually bring us closer...
I dunno - I guess I'm just the sort of girl who likes to tell people about my wisdom teeth then. :laugh:
I thought I'd share this:
Quote from: Lynn Conway's Career Retrospective, Part VI
Stealth was an essential phase in my life after the turbulent period of my transition. I had to enter stealth just to safely live and find employment back then. Even today most post-op women choose to quietly "woodwork" or "go stealth" after transition, in order to experience full personality integration and assimilation as women, and to build strong new relationships as women.
My emergence from long-term stealth as a fully assimilated woman has been refreshing and invigorating. After a period of hesitancy and uncertainty, I faced the fact that my past was going to be exposed, and that I had to take control of that process and inform people close to me about my past. This has been a process of discovery and a very new stage in my life. Fortunately my persona and my important relationships were well-enough established before I came out so that I've encountered few negative effects - and there have been many benefits,from being quietly out, as well see.
sourceI don't see transitioning as anything more than a big pain in the wallet. Once upon a time I did, but now it's just an on-going annoyance in my life. I don't have any particular personal reasons to choose stealth (whatever level of it I might be able to achieve), or to be out. I don't have any problem with people that choose stealth, though I applaud people who choose to be out, for exactly the reasons Jenny described.
I like to fantacize that I am so gorgeous that the only thing that was keeping me from total stealth was my public political activities for transhealth issues. Everybody is a legend in their own mind including John Legend. When one lived the first half of ones life with one legal identity, it is hard to destroy the paper trail, even if you look like Sarah Palin or Mariska Hargitay. You can't even go stealth if you write your talking points on your left hand. I may be too retarded to go stealth.
case in point, from earlier in Lynn Conway's life:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/Retrospective5.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/Retrospective5.html)
Quote- - - during that period, I had several interactions with Michael Schrage of the Washington Post, who wrote an article about me (see the 6-1-83 Washington Post clipping above) - - only just recently (in mid 1999) Michael told me that he'd done a routine background check on me back then, and had turned up something unexpected - - - a negative result of a type that I had not thought about when constructing and deploying my "stealth background" paperwork and connections - - - Michael had called Columbia University to do some backgrounding with my Professors there about the kind of student I was, etc. - - - ah, but he discovered that "none of them had ever heard of me", even though I was officially listed as in the Class of '62 - - - it didn't take him long to backtrack my records and guess what was going on - - - he'd discussed his findings during his workup of the SCI story with the Post's editors, and they pondered whether to "out me" or not - - fortunately, they decided that it wasn't relevant to the technological research story (whew!), realizing that DoD must have known anyways, etc., because of the requirement for a Top Secret clearance for such work - - - ( I learned a lesson from this: I wouldn't have made a perfect spy after all!)
Gosh, it has been a while since I have posted here. About Stealth, I see that more people could care less about being stealth, that was my opinion the last time I was here and most would say they were going to be stealth. You don't have to tell anyone about anything, it is all up to you. I'm post op about 7 years now and I don't tell anything but if someone asks I will tell them. Most people I know do know about me. It doesn't seem to matter at all. Most people where I work know and I work with children. Been driving a school bus for about 7 years now.
Going stealth is one of those "hopey' changie" thingies that are just out of touch with what ordinary Americans want. By Golly! You can't go stealth and hide your teabags or vicey versey ! High taxes are the enemy of stealth. If you are stealth, the American people want to see your certificate of live birth and a return to core values. Tom Tancredo!
The internet (just beginning) and the various groups that now exist, did not exist, when I decided to finally sort my problem out in 1989. I did not even know about the following terms Stealth / Not Stealth, Out / Not Out. Other members have given the classic definition of Stealth and I will do so here.
Stealth n. secrecy, a secret procedure. by stealth surreptitiously[1]
Stealthy adj. 1 (of an action) done with stealth; proceeding imperceptibly. 2 (of a person or thing) moving with stealth[1]
Well my life is not a secret procedure, I do not do anything in secrecy, because I'm doing all the things that other human beings are doing and my life is not a secret because I always tell people my life history, what I do not tell them is my medical condition, there are a lot of people who have, medical conditions and they do not reveal their conditions to outsiders, but do let their immediate family know. So to be fair, my immediate family and extremely close friends know (and that is very few) about my medical condition.
So in regards to the terms Stealth / Not Stealth, Out / Not Out. I personally do not care which terms you want to apply to me because I do not care in the slightest and I do not even use them.
Yes I'm well aware that certain government departments will have a permanent record of what I have done for example passport, birth certificate and citizenship documents. If some one wants to garner that information and use it, then there is not a lot that I can do about it. However, I will try and see what I can do find out who was responsible of releasing this information and take the necessary steps to ensure that it does not happen again.
Which brings me to the white lies that I have to tell some times, "I don't like it but the alternative is for me a non starter" as Saskia says. Because, if I am out I would not be seen as a female, I would be treated differently and more than likely I would not have had the jobs that I have had, so why do I keep my life private? "its human nature to treat people that are different, differently from others".
As you can gather I'm a very private person, well hey that's me an I will make no apology for it. I'm like Northern Jane after 21 years "on this side of the fence" I'm extremely happy being a female and extremely grateful to my surgeon. But you ask, if I'm such a private person why would I come here and spill my personal details to you?.
Well I happened to see the documentary on 'Jazz' and trying to obtain my birth certificate (from England) so that I can have final closure on that part of my life. These particular moments stirred my interest in the community again after 21 years in the woodwork so to speak and again Northern Jane said it best "Human beings are social creatures and sooner or later everybody wants some kind of connection with others of a similar experience. Particularly for someone who is stealth, the online connection is one of the few available".
Finally to really spell out my feelings on the stealth or out issue. Matilda says something similar to what I am going to say and that is "I have always been a female and I will always will be a female." and no I have never suffered from gender identity disorder, so therefore stealth and out terms do not apply to me, why? because I am a female.
Kind Regards
Sarah B
PS When I get my birth certificate, I might just go back into the woodwork.
[1]The concise Oxford Dictionary (Thumb Index Edition), Clarendon Press, Oxford, Eight Editon
Be who you want to be
Quote from: Sheila on February 09, 2010, 09:30:18 PM
Gosh, it has been a while since I have posted here. About Stealth, I see that more people could care less about being stealth, that was my opinion the last time I was here and most would say they were going to be stealth.
It's a brave new world isn't it, Sheila? This business of becoming more visible will likely spark off some battles, but ultimately I think it is a very positive trend for this community and will have good affects for us all down the road.
Stay strong :).
Quote from: xsocialworker on February 09, 2010, 10:13:43 PM
Going stealth is one of those "hopey' changie" thingies that are just out of touch with what ordinary Americans want. By Golly! You can't go stealth and hide your teabags or vicey versey ! High taxes are the enemy of stealth. If you are stealth, the American people want to see your certificate of live birth and a return to core values. Tom Tancredo!
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Don't disappear Sarah B! Us "old fossils" have a role to play - we are the historians LOL!
Having a man in my life again, someone I care about and who loves me deeply, the more I wish to leave the past in the past in my 3D world. He doesn't need to be maligned by the narrow-minded.
I am still involved in Intersex issues but the TS stuff will strictly be on-line.
I'm not a fossil yet! But thanks for your kind support Jane.
I do not know what my genes say I am, but I do not really care anyway. It would be interesting to find out and I have to have some necessary medical tests soon, so maybe I will talk to my personal doctor about it the next time I see her. Yes she does know about my condition. I only have had two general practitioners that know about me and she is one of them.
Kind regards
Sarah B
Quote from: Northern Jane on February 10, 2010, 09:45:34 AM
Don't disappear Sarah B! Us "old fossils" have a role to play - we are the historians LOL!
I think the role you play is greater than that. It's nice to have a
few normal people around living normal lives, with all of their difficulties with these issues long past, to show those of us that are in the thick of it that there's some light at the end of the tunnel. :)
Quote from: Alyssa M. on February 10, 2010, 04:09:55 PM
I think the role you play is greater than that. It's nice to have a few normal people around living normal lives, with all of their difficulties with these issues long past, to show those of us that are in the thick of it that there's some light at the end of the tunnel. :)
As a slightly younger fossil (I merely date from the "Cretaceous" early 1980's era rather than the "Jurasic" 1970's era that the other two hail from ;)) I will certainly agree - there is definitely light at the end of that tunnel.
However I'm not too sure that I personally want to be thought of as normal! Normality usually sounds really boring to me. I'd far rather be thought of as a wildly creative fun loving and charmingly eccentric oddball :laugh:
Quote from: rejennyrated on February 10, 2010, 04:54:08 PM
As a slightly younger fossil (I merely date from the "Cretaceous" early 1980's era rather than the "Jurasic" 1970's era that the other two hail from ....
JURASSIC???? Ooooo! :eusa_doh:
***Cat fight! Cat fight!***
Quote from: Northern Jane on February 10, 2010, 06:59:36 PM
JURASSIC???? Ooooo! :eusa_doh:
***Cat fight! Cat fight!***
Would not that be Sabre tooth Cat fight? But given the title of Jane's other thread maybe Dinosaur fight.
You look so happy Janet, not to mention beautiful :).
Thank You, Jen. :icon_redface:
Ok if I'm a fossil then I must be around the 'Miocene' period. Which makes me younger than my Cretaceous and Jurassic sisters and the better looking fossil. Because my bones have not been weathered as much.
I'm sorry Janet but us 'Fossils' were long dead before our Saber Tooth Tiger[1] sisters tried to take a swipe at us.
Hiiiisssss...
Kindest regards
Sarah B
[1] Late Pleistocene period 10,000 years ago
Those fossils and geologic periods are just bunk. God created the earth with age. There is no evolution. The Flintstones is a documentary.
Quote from: tekla on February 11, 2010, 01:11:19 AM
Those fossils and geologic periods are just bunk. God created the earth with age. There is no evolution. The Flintstones is a documentary.
LOL!
ya, gods can be tricksy like that
"I am the way the truth and the light... but just to throw any of you, who come looking for truth, off the scent I'm going to do a whole pile of extra work to make it look as if something else is going on.
Something completely false just to lead you astray and make you believe a complete falsehood.
Then me and my Angels can have a bloody good laugh at you! After all there hasn't been anything good on celestial TV since the flood!" ;)
LOL Somehow I don't really think so...
PS - Apologies Sarah.B -For some reason I thought you were 1979 rather than 1989 - Miocene indeed - and I now feel terribly old! ;D
i like this better: http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html (http://www.tsroadmap.com/sexuality/disclosure.html)
Quote from: tsroadmapThe thing is, if you disclose, you tend to cease being a person who is fun to be with, of good character, having fascinating ideas or interests etc. You become just a "transsexual". Full stop. "Oh? So-and-so? She's a transsexual, did you know?". Not "she's really fun". Not "she does so-and-so". No, "She's a transsexual". She used to have a dick. I changed over to reduce the drama in my life and try to become a productive human being without a host of distractions about who and what I was etc etc and disclosing tends to defeat that aim.
When you disclose you are not actually saying that you are - for all practical means and purposes - a woman (who so happened to once have a male body and lived a male life). Instead you become a "transsexual".
Since transsexualism is rarely of any consequence to most people's lives, a "transsexual" is a caricature created by the media and urban myths. To some people "transsexuals" are she-males on porn sites. To others they are sexually predatory gender benders who hang around in the gay scene, tottering on their stilettos and sporting mini skirts while they look for trade. To others, they are crossdressers who lost the plot and probably have an issue with their mothers. And so on. Being a "transsexual"means havig one quality that totallyu swamps anything else you may be.
Usually, the only people who truly "get it" are those who have or have had a good TS friend and they will probably suspect you anyway, since they intuitively learn what combinations of androgynous aspects that are giveaways.
So when you tell someone that you've had a sex change, most people will immediately superimpose this caricature over the top of you. That is, the real you ceases to exist and they get the completely wrong idea of who and what you are, and all explanations tend to be seen with suspicion since it runs contrary to what they "know".
In this context, which is more honest? To let people see you as you are today or let them get completely the wrong idea about you? You could even say that, by not disclosing, we are protecting people (and ourselves) from their misconceptions.
All of which is fine - except that I happen the think that the carricature deserves to be shown up for the utter nonsense and imbecilic stupidity that it really is.
Why let people continue in their ignorance when the world can become better through mutual understanding. I believe in shining a light into those dark corners.
So I see myself as an educator, and in fact, what you actually find is that most people are more intelligent than these scare stories give them credit for. Most people now instinctively understand that what they see on TV and read in the papers is often oversimplified and maybe even distorted.
Yes sometime there are a few moments when people look at me quizzically and say "you? ... but you don't fit the profile at all..." etc but then 99 times out of 100 they will later come back and say "Thank you - I've now realised that the media myth is prescisely that - a distorted myth!"
And so you add another one who "gets it" to the growing list!
It's maybe not a vocation for everyone. But some of us have to puncture that baloon of ignorance for the world or future generations will still be going through the same hassles that some of us had.
Definitely food for thought Natasha (and Jenny.) Seems like such a catch 22 sometimes, with each choice having equal parts right and wrong. I guess we can only just let our own experiences be our guide.
Btw, does anybody have a good cure for insomnia? This is getting ridiculous.
Jen - Valerian tea is both gentle safe natural and usually pretty effective at curing insomnia... You can get teabags containing it at the healthfood store.
Quote from: Jen on February 11, 2010, 04:13:17 AM
I guess we can only just let our own experiences be our guide.
This is exactly it. For some peeps, becoming educators or activists works just fine whilst others just want to leave the trans stuff behind & get on with their lives. There's no wrong answer. It's only wrong when some people presume to tell others how to live their lives.
Cure for insomnia? You're barking up the wrong tree :laugh: I've been studying for some exams & I'm high on coffee.
Quote from: Valentina on January 02, 2010, 05:10:06 AM
Stealth & your feelings about it.
Stealth is an individual choice.I don't understand what the drama is about either but I understand why people get mad. I also hate it when certain persons are rude enough to tell me how to live my life. I mean, give me a break, worry about your own life! ::)
Sometimes stealth takes place without you realising it. You don't plan for it. It just happens.
Jenny, I'm terribly sorry. It just slipped out. Normal is a horrible thing to call someone. I'll never do it again. My heartfelt apologies. :icon_bunch:
Natasha, that's a great link. Andrea James has definitely been a role model for me in my transition, not least because she's very open to differing views and experiences (as in, being out herself, but publishing that letter from soneone who is stealth). I notice that even now: people who know my legal name before or when they meet me (e.g., people I have to deal with in university administration; friends I met even shortly before transition) treat me a lot different than people who don't (most other business; friends I met since).
Jenny's point about being out in order to debunk myths definitely rings true as well. A lot of the (few) negative reactions I've had have to do with people thinking I'll be some icky ->-bleeped-<-, cut off from "normal" society, like the ones they see in the street (people passing and exchaning a knowing look, etc.), you know, as opposed to all the ones that they never notice because they pass well. People are really bad at noticing how selection effects contribute to their stereotyes. But I don't think that changes the fact that it's completely a personal decision.
Ideally I wish stealth would become irrelevant: I imagine an ideal world in which all the caricatures were debunked, and transitioning would seem just slightly more relevant to one's history than having had an appendectomy.
Jen you can also get valerian tablets which is what I use. They smell like stinky feet but they do work. :)
Quote from: Alyssa M. on February 11, 2010, 02:55:55 PM
Jenny, I'm terribly sorry. It just slipped out. Normal is a horrible thing to call someone. I'll never do it again. My heartfelt apologies. :icon_bunch:
apology accepted - mind you, you should see what happened to the last person to call me a lady! They barely survived! ;D
Quote from: Alyssa M. on February 11, 2010, 02:55:55 PM
transitioning would seem just slightly more relevant to one's history than having had an appendectomy.
Pretty much the point where I have been fortunate enough to reach - at least within my own community. It certainly took some work, but it can be done even today...
Quote from: Jeannette on February 11, 2010, 06:27:09 AM
Stealth is an individual choice.
I agree, when and not to tell, I was madly in love with a guy about 13years ago, if I hadn'd tolded him I was trans Id probably be married to him now, its still very raw, my story is in message4 in this thread https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,41242.msg278947.html#msg278947 (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,41242.msg278947.html#msg278947)
Anyway Im now engaged to another guy, I tolded him my history last year, we're still together, but its never discussed and he doesn't want his family to know, both of us are happy with this decision, Im passed child bearing age so that doesn't come into it, as for why I never did have children, well that can be explained away, I have ''woman problem'' no guy ever dares go there, private & personal, a girl's own business.
p
Golly, I married Todd and waited like 5 years to tell him, but he was just so sweet and nice. Todd is such a big old polar bear and he is soooo patriotic. I never did tell John during the campaign and you know, I really don't think the sweet old guy ever guessed, bless his heart.
Rejennyrated, no apologies are needed, I did not even read your post thoroughly and I had to go back and reread what you posted, to see why you apologized to me.
If I remember correctly, when I originally read your post I thought you was talking about Northern Jane and another girl.
I wish it was 31 years, however I'm 19 years post and 2 years pre, giving a total of 21. I started and had my operation three days before my normal birthday in February. Now that is a good month!!!!
Kindest Regards
Sarah B
I tend to be on a need to know basis.
I don't advertise it publicly. Important people get to know my medical conditions and past to avoid potential trouble.
Also I will not be silent on homophobia or transphobia even if it risks people suspecting things.
Tonight I went to a concert thing three bands, beer, food, guys painting and this ..well.... wall with a row of typewriters in front of it. The idea was to type out a secret and then put it in the box. At a guess I'd say they gather up each cities secrets and display then at the next city location.
I was a wee bit drunk and feeling crazy so I typed:-
".....I am transsexual....
..... .....but.......
.....but.............
you wouldn't know it unless you hit on ....on... me!!!!!!!!!!!
:*)
--------------------------
It was more or less something like that, you had to hit really hard to make the letters show hence the double words.
So much for me going stealth?? hahah just kidding.. my secret is still safe.. well not in the next city!!! 0_o
We did it on the way out so I jokingly suggested we get out of there before a spotlight shines on me. :D
I'm not going to tell a single soul about my past :-*.
After my surgery this summer, I'll have answers for any whoever questions me about babies or anything.
I really don't think A guy really wants to know. I asked a few guys and they all said they wouldn't wanna know. That guy will never look at you the same again. he'll always think this use to be a dude.
Quote from: MsFierce on February 19, 2010, 03:48:00 PM
That guy will never look at you the same again. he'll always think this use to be a dude.
You must do whatever you feel comfortable with of course... but for the record that last comment you made about men really isn't true of all of them by a long shot.
In my experience there are in fact a surprising number who can look beyond the past and see the present. At least there certainly are in the UK. :)
I don't out myself, unless I'm in a situation (doctor's office, etc) where my being pre-op may be an issue (usually it's not). But I don't care that my friends from a previous life know. I transitioned at my present job, so they know, but it's not an issue at all.
I have a friend on the west coast who was the first TS I met in person, back in the early 90's. She got her surgery done back then, and was always very passable. She lives in deep stealth to this day, in a very liberal city, as a lesbian woman (she's very crunchy granola these days - I know she told her last lover what her story was) and de-friended me on Facebook because I had a couple of TS-associated things on my page. She expressed a lot of regret to me over doing that, but I just thought that she has a bit of a burden to carry around.
Quote from: rejennyrated on February 19, 2010, 04:01:26 PM
You must do whatever you feel comfortable with of course... but for the record that last comment you made about men really isn't true of all of them by a long shot.
In my experience there are in fact a surprising number who can look beyond the past and see the present. At least there certainly are in the UK. :)
of course I don't think all guys are like that. The ones I know and being that they are young like me will.
I wish I could meet a decent guy my age that will change my mind.
Quote from: MsFierce on February 19, 2010, 04:08:56 PM
of course I don't think all guys are like that. The ones I know and being that they are young like me will.
I wish I could meet a decent guy my age that will change my mind.
I sincerely hope you get your wish then - I had my SRS at the age of 24 - by the time I was in my 30's I had met several and dated two or three of them. So it can be done, and as I have said before, if you can find that man, (or indeed woman), being able to be open with them does make for a much stronger relationship.
Quote from: rejennyrated on February 19, 2010, 04:17:34 PM
I sincerely hope you get your wish then - I had my SRS at the age of 24 - by the time I was in my 30's I had met several and dated two or three of them. So it can be done, and as I have said before, if you can find that man, (or indeed woman), being able to be open with them does make for a much stronger relationship.
I agree with that. But I'm not gonna do that I've already decided to bury my past and never talk about it at all. My old self had a horrible childhood thats not me anymore My new self ;) had a wonderful childhood. I know its crazy but it's a lie im gonna keep forever.
A friend of mine whose Post-Op told her bf and he broke up with her and called her a freak and told people. I will not be following in that path.
Quote from: MsFierce on February 19, 2010, 04:23:57 PM
My new self ;) had a wonderful childhood. I know its crazy but it's a lie im gonna keep forever.
I understand and I approve but I think you would be far better off to find the truth in your past, and speak it, instead of lying about the past. When you lie, you have to create more lies just to explain things, eventually it becomes impossible to juggle all of the compounding lies.
Also, once you get caught in a lie... it's over, you are a "liar" to whoever trusted you. Learning how to find the truth in the past and to speak it in order that there is no disconnect would be a good thread. This is something that others helped me with in the past.
Quote from: Julie Wilson on February 20, 2010, 04:54:58 AM
I understand and I approve but I think you would be far better off to find the truth in your past, and speak it, instead of lying about the past. When you lie, you have to create more lies just to explain things, eventually it becomes impossible to juggle all of the compounding lies.
Also, once you get caught in a lie... it's over, you are a "liar" to whoever trusted you. Learning how to find the truth in the past and to speak it in order that there is no disconnect would be a good thread. This is something that others helped me with in the past.
What a great idea... I wish I had come up with that concept!
Would you care to post an idiots guide to the basic principles in a new thread Julie? It's sounds like it would make a really fascinating thread all of it's own.
Quote from: Jen on February 11, 2010, 04:13:17 AM
Definitely food for thought Natasha (and Jenny.) Seems like such a catch 22 sometimes, with each choice having equal parts right and wrong. I guess we can only just let our own experiences be our guide.
Btw, does anybody have a good cure for insomnia? This is getting ridiculous.
You could try increasing your magnesium intake. Insomnia is a sign of magnesium deficiency
Quote from: rejennyrated on February 20, 2010, 09:45:32 AM
What a great idea... I wish I had come up with that concept!
Would you care to post an idiots guide to the basic principles in a new thread Julie? It's sounds like it would make a really fascinating thread all of it's own.
This has come up before in previous discussions about stealth. There is a very good set of definitions by Kate Grimaldi on the Beginning Life Forums website concerning "Step Phases" of passing, both to the public and to ourselves. I'll quote it here, as it's only a javascript link on the site and a bit hard to find. The page link is here (http://forum.beginninglifeforums.com/index.php?start=0&t=msg&th=67), you have to scroll down and find it under the "Section 3" link near the bottom:
QuoteSection Three: Step Phases (SP) Levels defined. Created by Kate Grimaldi.
SP Levels: Created by Kate Grimaldi to describe perceived degrees of integration of the transsexual experience with society. See "Stealth". Slightly edited by LadyHawke to correct minor typo's.
SP 0 : No passing.
SP 1 : Pass in a crowd where no one is paying much mind. The mall or a busy street. Little person-to-person interaction.
SP 2 : Pass with sustained person-to-person interaction; at a bank, with a waiter, with a sales clerk, or a person at a bar (who is not a "->-bleeped-<-") who flirts with you.
SP 3 : You get that person home and you go to "heavy breathing", and still they accept your womanhood.
SP 4 : [A tricky one to define]. Sustained acceptance of womanhood. The other party, after three weeks, three months, or three years, suddenly has it dawn on them that you were once a boy. No "benign clocking", as Debbie dubbed it. No people who say, "Ohhhh. Nowwwwwwwwww I get it. I won't say anything though. She's so nice and she tries verrrrrrrrrry hard and almost succeeds. Her secret is safe with me as I will never tell, even her, that I know. After all, poor thing, I'd break her heart and I do like her so." Or from the Twelfth Night by Shakespeare when the jester, Feste, says something like, "I profile from my enemies and am abused by my friends."
SP 5 : Your past, as you remember it, is that you see a female in your mind's eye, even though you know for sure that you were not trying to be one. For example, I remember myself as female in high school even though I can see from the photographs that I was hardly that.
SP 6 : I am GG. You realize you were a woman trying to be a man -- like Viola in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night -- only it was an act. The real you has been female all along, and you, of course, knew that all along... but you see how it was a GG doing all those things along the way. Not just a recollection (as in SP 5) of being a female doing it, but a layer deeper at SP 6, seeing the femininity colored those actions and not a "male upbringing" and how little you really know of men.
Appendum, written by Cynthia:
The SP levels are really looking at yourself and seeing just how well you can pass. If you walk down the street in the city, do people see a woman? (SP1) If you go shopping and talk to clerks and salespeople, do they see a woman? (SP2) If you flirt with a guy (or girl) and rush to a hotel room for a passionate hour, does he (or she) still experience you as a woman? (SP3) If you make friends and hand out a lot and they don't know your history, will they still witness you as a woman 3 months later? (SP4) When you look back on your childhood and youth, do you see yourself as female in those memories, a girl doing all those things? (SP5) Without thinking, without taking a political stance, do you see yourself as GG? (SP6)
I think, in my own opinion and not defining this for anyone else but myself so I'm using the feminine perspective, that when we reach levels 5 and 6 we have come to the true realization that we have been female our whole lives, despite what others may have told us or thought about us at some earlier stages. It then becomes a matter of seeing ourselves as females with a unique set of life circumstances and we adjust our hindsight views accordingly. It's not a lie, a deception, or a falsehood, it is merely a perspective looking back as female to experiences that do not change the fact of who we have been all along.
I remember my first boyfriend at age 11, I remember my first kiss with a boy, I remember playing dolls and dress up and house with other little girls as a child. These are not made up fabrications, I really did those things. But I remember my childhood now from the point of view that I was female back then, even if it was a female in the wrong sort of body, not a little boy being naughty and hiding things from his parents. I may have also due to life circumstances for example been forced to wear ragged clothes or go barefoot, but that doesn't change the fact of
who it was that experienced those things. For me it
was a little girl, as suppressed as she may have had to be for necessity's sake or for sheer survival in a hostile environment. It is not a lie or deception when I tell you that Chloe experienced those things, because I did.
Maybe we put too much emphasis on "changing", on "transition", on being entirely one thing and then suddenly becoming entirely something else where we have something to hide. Hey, I didn't just wake up one morning as an adult and decide, "well damn, I think I'm female now." I have always been a girl, a young woman, an adult women. I do share experiences with other women because I did those things. Maybe not all of them and maybe not as much, but that repressed little girl came out every single chance she got, and from the perspective of an adult woman I can see it was her who was always REAL; it was the pretend person who was the lie and the deception. I have no reason to remind everyone I meet that anyone other than that real person ever existed. Of course I can if I want to or if I think it will help others in the same or similar situation, but it's not being dishonest if I don't.
Quote from: FairyGirl on February 21, 2010, 07:22:04 PM
I think, in my own opinion and not defining this for anyone else but myself so I'm using the feminine perspective, that when we reach levels 5 and 6 we have come to the true realization that we have been female our whole lives, despite what others may have told us or thought about us at some earlier stages. It then becomes a matter of seeing ourselves as females with a unique set of life circumstances and we adjust our hindsight views accordingly. It's not a lie, a deception, or a falsehood, it is merely a perspective looking back as female to experiences that do not change the fact of who we have been all along.
I remember my first boyfriend at age 11, I remember my first kiss with a boy, I remember playing dolls and dress up and house with other little girls as a child. These are not made up fabrications, I really did those things. But I remember my childhood now from the point of view that I was female back then, even if it was a female in the wrong sort of body, not a little boy being naughty and hiding things from his parents. I may have also due to life circumstances for example been forced to wear ragged clothes or go barefoot, but that doesn't change the fact of who it was that experienced those things. For me it was a little girl, as suppressed as she may have had to be for necessity's sake or for sheer survival in a hostile environment. It is not a lie or deception when I tell you that Chloe experienced those things, because I did.
Maybe we put too much emphasis on "changing", on "transition", on being entirely one thing and then suddenly becoming entirely something else where we have something to hide. Hey, I didn't just wake up one morning as an adult and decide, "well damn, I think I'm female now." I have always been a girl, a young woman, an adult women. I do share experiences with other women because I did those things. Maybe not all of them and maybe not as much, but that repressed little girl came out every single chance she got, and from the perspective of an adult woman I can see it was her who was always REAL; it was the pretend person who was the lie and the deception. I have no reason to remind everyone I meet that anyone other than that real person ever existed. Of course I can if I want to or if I think it will help others in the same or similar situation, but it's not being dishonest if I don't.
I couldn't agree more with you. What a great link too! ~smile~
That was a great post FairyGirl. Thanks for taking the pressure offa me >:-)