You transition to become yourself. To make the outside match the person on the inside.
But then you see alot of people who make a conscious effort to change their behaviour, body language and speech to appear more masculine. Surely this is the complete opposite to becoming yourself if you feel the need to change the way you act. Your personality.
There's studies to show that transpeople have brains far more similar to those of their gender than their sex (If that makes sense). So going by that fact, if an FTM has a masculine brain, then their behaviour should reflect that, right? A male brain should direct your body in a male manner with body language, speech, etc.
I've always found that this applies to me at least. I was always told off by teachers for my "unladylike" behaviour. Not just my interests and dress sense, but the way I held my body, the way I sat, etc.
This has always confused me a bit, so any input or opinions would be great.
I completely agree and, like you, have always been told off by parents, teachers and other family members that I was not "ladylike". My behaviors, posture, speech patterns and such were always very male, I just didn't really realize the difference I guess until I was conscious of it. In the beginning of my transition I would observe bio males and try to copy their 'masculinity' but then realized that I already acted like them in most ways.
I think the things that most trans men 'change' to become more masculine are the things that they gave into when people told them to be more ladylike. If that makes sense. That they actually have to unlearn the things that they did to try to fit in and get back to the behaviors they would instinctively have had if they had been themselves before....
I agree if ur really trans then u shouldn't need tips on passing u should just know. If u feel and know that ur male then act the way u are and u should be fine. I act myself and I am who I am. For instance bathroom when I go in I don't talk no eye contact get in get out no one needs to say that if u have a male brain
I think bathroom etiquette is different to behaviour and body language.
Male bathroom etiquette is definitely learned rather than programmed in.
Seems like it, but some of it's conditioning. Perhaps you've already gone the opposite way and adjusted to being feminine?
For the record, I don't need to change my body language either. Mom always complained I wasn't feminine enough and now it's not an issue.
This has always confused me too, as long as I can remember I've been told off for sitting like a man...walking like a man...belching like a man :D
Even when I was super fem appearance wise I was always "one of the lads"
Quote from: SilverFang on May 05, 2010, 09:40:57 AM
Perhaps you've already gone the opposite way and adjusted to being feminine?
Feminine guys are usually assumed gay and that's something I've never had a problem with.
Quote from: Ryan on May 05, 2010, 09:30:29 AM
I think bathroom etiquette is different to behaviour and body language.
Male bathroom etiquette is definitely learned rather than programmed in.
I think it might be programed in actully. Females pack in groups for saftey (often from the males), and when voiding are at thier most vulnerable. So they seek protection in numbers. Males do not need to protect themselves from women so solitary voiding behavior is the norm.
thats my therory anyways...
Quote from: cynthialee on May 05, 2010, 09:44:51 AM
I think it might be programed in actully. Females pack in groups for saftey (often from the males), and when voiding are at thier most vulnerable. So they seek protection in numbers. Males do not need to protect themselves from women so solitary voiding behavior is the norm.
thats my therory anyways...
Thanks, first possible answer I've found to my endless "why do females go to the bathroom in packs?" question. :laugh:
I've found that now that I've been on T for almost 22 months that initially, worrying about passing and thinking more about typical male/female behaviors and making conscious efforts to avoid doing anything stereotypically female lest I be read as not male went away once I was passing 100% and also started actually seeing myself as male in the mirror.
Now I don't consciously think about how I sit or stand or walk or whatever, I just do what comes naturally.
It's normal in the beginning. But I don't think we are necessarily changing who we are, but are just more aware. I have noticed also that even though I'm the same person, I have changed a LOT. Some for the better, some for the worse. I am definitely NOT the same person I was -- in some respects yes but others no.
Jay
That and the female pee domino effect. One girl gets up and instantly the rest at the table have to go as well. Always makes me grumble if I get up, then my friends follow me. FFS I don't need company. I don't care if you have to go now that I've excused myself. Just go afterward. XD
Certain bits of my behavior would suggest that I'm simply a very swishy male. This I like. I don't, however, like being told that because I walk like a girl, I must be a girl. (this has happened) I don't like the idea of changing who I am to shoot all the way to the other end of the gender spectrum. That would be just as bad for me as being a girl. I don't like a lot of boy stuff. So shoot me. I would rather pick clothes out for my friends and do their hair than play football or work on cars. Meh. At the same time, certain girly things seem very foreign to me still. STILL Just because I can dance, doesn't mean that I'm a girl. It just means that I can dance.
I have vents like these on occasion with a close friend who lives way to far away. He always gives me a cyber pat on the head and says "It's okay honey, you're just gay." Some days it's the most comforting thing anyone can say to me. To not be denied my maleness, despite my "Fabulous tendencies." (Yeah he's a bit flamboyant)
I was also told to act more ladylike growing up.
One specific time stands out to me especially. My family went on a cruise, and there was a night that everyone dressed up. Of course, my mom made me wear a dress (I think I was 11 so I didn't have much of a choice). We took a family picture, and the photographer asked me to stand with my legs closer together. My mom gave me this look of disapproval and embarrassment that I'll never forget. I couldn't understand what was wrong with the way I stood. Or sat or walked. But apparently it was very "unladylike."
I do believe some things are inherent, that we are born with certain male characteristics. But I also think that some of it, a great deal of it, is from our own conditioning (whether consciously or unconsciously). But that is also the same with any child of any gender.
It's the old nature versus nurture argument. I believe in nature and nurture.
After years of being told I was too much "like a boy" I was actually sent to finishing school to learn how to "act like a lady". So I can act in a very feminine way, but the key word there is 'act'. If I'm just being myself, my body language falls into patterns that are read more as masculine, even if it's sometimes an effeminate masculine.
Some aspects of the way we move is dictated by physicality, though. If you have breasts getting in your way, or a wide pelvis that makes your butt poke out and your femurs angle down/inwards towards your knees (which is common but not universal for female-born bodies) it will affect your center of gravity and how you move your limbs and so on.
Quote from: SilverFang on May 05, 2010, 09:48:11 AM
Thanks, first possible answer I've found to my endless "why do females go to the bathroom in packs?" question. :laugh:
The bathroom thing! Ok this made no sense to me either! you go you pee, you wash hands and leave. End of story. I always got told to sit with my legs together...but even without the proper junk down there it still feels weird. I can't sit with my legs closed.
Quote from: M.Grimm on May 05, 2010, 12:16:42 PM
Some aspects of the way we move is dictated by physicality, though. If you have breasts getting in your way, or a wide pelvis that makes your butt poke out and your femurs angle down/inwards towards your knees (which is common but not universal for female-born bodies) it will affect your center of gravity and how you move your limbs and so on.
I think I'd subconsciously registered this but have never actually thought about the physical aspect of it until now......do you think that applies in opposite? Like, the fact that when I went through puberty I always caught my hips on the edge of tables or turning corners? that would explain my clumsiness.....
Deffinately. My chest area was a constant issue as far as it getting in the way, because I wasn't in tune with my body or my curves, I always felt as if I was walking around in a padded body suit or life vest lol.
Well you guys have explained the bruised hips and I , like Grimm, got sent to school to learn how to act like a lady. I hated it. Just so I wouldn't embarrass my parents when the bishop came for confirmation. Oi!
Well growing up if we have male tendencies and are told to correct them when we're young, before we know we're trans...we mask how we want to carry ourselves and hide our masculine tendencies. So by doing that some of us develop female mannerisms...for me I never did. I was always told that I "walked like a farmer", sat with my legs apart, played with the boys, acted like a boy, didn't care about female conversation...and I didn't care enough to change it. I did mask some of my more male qualities...and when I transitioned I let them all hang out cause I could finally be me.
Quote from: zombiesarepeaceful on May 05, 2010, 02:51:31 PM
Well growing up if we have male tendencies and are told to correct them when we're young, before we know we're trans...
I always knew I wasn't what others saw. What I didn't know is that there were others like me and that anything could be done about it. Wording doesn't quite work. I was told after knowing as were a number of others. It doesn't stop you from trying to fit in the mold that you are told to for at least a while.
I meant before we knew we were trans as in...before we knew that we didn't have to be stuck in the sex we were born in. I always knew I was a boy inside. I just didn't know what to call it.
Even before I knew I was trans, I selectively attended to male socialization cues. When I was told that "boys should/shouldn't", I listened, and when I hearg "girls should/shouldn't," I ignored or did the opposite. My mother noticed this when I was three or four (she tried to handle it by telling me directly that I was a girl, which triggered my one and only "no I'm not" episode - never did that again). My stepdad noticed within a week of meeting me, and had several long conversations with my mother about it when they thought I couldn't hear.
And my now-husband noticed in the first weeks of dating me that (paraphrased) I "try too hard not to do anything that could be called girly, even if it's something I really want to do." This was when I was in the military, at the very height of my efforts to gender-conform, and I was dating him as a straight girl (so whatever female attractiveness signals I was able to produce were turned on full blast), and my adherence to masculine social conditioning was still that blatantly obvious.
Hmm a fellow rebel.
I was encouraged to act more feminine for a while, but it just didn't happen.
People would tell me to sit/walk/talk more like a girl but I didn't know what that meant. The way I acted was all automatic for me and people telling me that it wasn't right was a bit of a head->-bleeped-<-.
My parents would try and get me into dresses or feminine clothing for special occasions, but for me, it wasn't an option. I couldn't even force myself to if I wanted to. It's like telling someone to go out dressed in a potato sack. I felt like everyone would stare and laugh and I just felt horrible.
Infact, I cannot think of a worse feeling.
Quote from: Ryan on May 05, 2010, 03:58:10 PM
My parents would try and get me into dresses or feminine clothing for special occasions, but for me, it wasn't an option. I couldn't even force myself to if I wanted to. It's like telling someone to go out dressed in a potato sack. I felt like everyone would stare and laugh and I just felt horrible.
Infact, I cannot think of a worse feeling.
Oh god, I know exactly what you mean, and it was infact after attending a birthday party that they finally noticed something was wrong because the next day at school I broke down. Also my mother had rufused to allow me to wear "boy clothes" when I lost weight in senior year of highschool. I mananged 1 one more year then broke down.
I actually didn't mind the clothing, as long as it was just for special occasions. I always loved sparkle and glitter and soft fabrics and shiny things. Proms/dances/weddings/etc were great excuses to be totally fabulous and fun :)
Trying to be feminine day-to-day does wear on me though. I'm terrible at it and everyone sees through the act. So I quit.
Quote from: kyril on May 05, 2010, 04:08:49 PM
I actually didn't mind the clothing, as long as it was just for special occasions. I always loved sparkle and glitter and soft fabrics and shiny things. Proms/dances/weddings/etc were great excuses to be totally fabulous and fun :)
Trying to be feminine day-to-day does wear on me though. I'm terrible at it and everyone sees through the act. So I quit.
Does this mean I can donate my prom dress? You can turn it into something tottaly rainbow fab! :D
I used to tell people that i would rather wear a bed sheet than a dress. They never got it.
XD. That also makes me think of togas.....-cough- anyway....
I refused to admit to myself that I was trans for the longest time so I literally drank everyday for two years (I'm only twenty) and slept with 21 men so no one would assume a thing. I dressed extremely feminine and pretended to be something I'm not my entire life. I had a daydream life and then my fake reality. I'm not doing this to learn male behavior but to finally live as myself.
Quote from: GothTranzboi on May 05, 2010, 04:10:59 PM
Does this mean I can donate my prom dress? You can turn it into something tottaly rainbow fab! :D
LOL! I still have my own...I was thinking of wearing it to Pride >:-)
OMG...I want pictures -Gimmie-
What is this prom thing? Never went , never had a real choice in it.
Quote from: LordKAT on May 05, 2010, 04:22:10 PM
What is this prom thing? Never went , never had a real choice in it.
Me neither. Assumed I would have been slaughtered for wearing a suit.
It's just dancing in fancy dresses and ->-bleeped-<- really. Like a school dance but more sophisticated or something.
Quote from: LordKAT on May 05, 2010, 04:22:10 PM
What is this prom thing? Never went , never had a real choice in it.
Its a high school dance...girls wear fancy expensive dresses. Its the epitome of heteronormative rites of passage. I was not allowed to wear the suit I wanted, so I retaliated by going with my gay best friend. I still have pic somewhere. My mom wanted me to be "normal" so badly she paid through the nose for my dess, which was like 250 dollars...I have pic somewhere...-gag-
I went to my junior prom. In a dress. I felt terribly uncomfortable in it and I kept stepping on the edge, almost falling over in my heels, etc. I always wanted to wear a suit to a formal gathering, but I never really understood why... The dance was Ok, I went with a friend and it was kinda fun I guess, but I didn't go my senior year.
Actually, there was a girl there in a suit, who always refused to wear dresses and instead wore men's clothes all the time... She was actually mistaken for a boy by nearly everyone. Did I totally miss something there? :o I think perhaps I should get back in touch with her...
thats funny I found out that one of my Best highschool friends is FTM and another came out to a small group of us as MTF junior year. Last month I found out a third friend is a CD. I wonder if thats why we were all friends...we just kinda knew?
Yeah, we had a couple of lesbians who went in suits, but I, being oblivious, thought I was disqualified from that by virtue of not being into girls (same reason I wouldn't come out as trans at the time, being gay made it impossible to even take myself seriously). It didn't help (or maybe it did?) that we also had several out gay guys who went to prom in drag.
I really didn't mind the dresses though except that I was always very awkward in them.
Also, 11 of the 14 people who were my closest friends throughout high school came out as gay my senior year. Of those, there's at least one other FTM. No MTFs though.
facinating....odd how we all sort of gravitate no?
I hate having others in the bathroom when I'm trying to take a pee. And having someone talking to me then really grates my nerves. The whole being girly thing feels like an act. I love belching contests, I don't understand why the females around me get mad when I do that. >:-)
I'm sure I have some female conditioning...when you've hid from yourself and tried so hard to fit in...for three decades...I feel like I'm rediscovering myself now. I do still do girly stuff like sewing and beadwork. I like fashion, but I don't feel comfortable wearing a lot of the ladies clothes and that uncomfortableness is getting much worse lately. As a kid, I usually hung out with the guys, playing Voltron, Thundercats, cars, and baseball.
In church, I was always put with the girls group and it was sooo boring. I wanted to go camping and hiking like the boys did but none of the girls wanted to do that. Then we had a class there on being a lady (the coursework seemed heavily influenced by the 50s). I hated it. Then I got really upset one night when the teacher told me to pay attention to the fashion tips she was reading because I had big boobs. I covered my chest with my arms and almost shouted at her I do not. The girls in the class thought I was weird.
Sorry to ramble...this is longer than I meant for it to be.
Haha. Most of my friends are gay, too. It is kinda funny. I tried to be a lesbian for a year or so in college. Didn't work. I just wasn't all that attracted to girls. Now I'm pretty asexual, although I can appreciate hotness in either gender. I'm romantical attracted to guys, though. I just don't like that I feel so feminine when I'm with a guy.
As for the behaviors, growing up I was of course told I wasn't lady like, but my parents didn't really push it. They wanted a boy from the beginning and ended up with four girls, so they dressed all of us like little tomboys and my father pretty much treated us like we were boys (my mother's kicking herself for that now that she thinks I'm "a dyke" [her words], no matter how much I explain I like men). I can only remember a few instances of my mother trying to make me act more like a girl. She pretty much just excepted I was a tomboy.
Other people only pointed it out every so often. One of the most popular boys in school was actually disappointed when I started wearing girl clothes in 8th grade (went back to boy shirts in 9th, though I kept the girl jeans) because even though I wasn't popular at all, he still thought of me as the cool girl who played basketball and snowboarded. In high school I was just a JROTC girl, most of whom were seen as "manly" anyway. People pointed out a lot that I never showed emotion an kept a cool head through anything and at Sea Cadet boot camp the other girls relied on me to keep everything cool and comfort them because I was the only girl who didn't cry once during boot camp. I was just a strong, solid presence, which I didn't think of as male at the time, but now I do. And I wore a dress to prom, although everyone and his mother (including all my teachers that were chaperoning) made a huge deal about how weird that was.
Then when I went through my denial stage in college I forced myself to adopt a lot of really female traits (going mostly off what trans websites were telling ftms NOT to do) and now I'm having to unlearn. For instance, I started purposely standing with my legs close together with my weight unevenly distributed and now it feels weird for me to stand like a man, even though I did for most of my life. I also have to force myself to take up more room and for some reason during my denial stage I got into habit of yelling "yay!" like a girl whenever something mildly good happened... It's something I NEVER would have done before trying to be more like a girl, but for some reason I'm now having trouble breaking the habit...
I was a weird mix of tomboy and girly girl as a kid. I took ballet from when I was 2 1/2 to 16 (my mom was a dance teacher), so I spent a lot of time in tights and tutu's, but it never felt like it was really feminine. And I never minded the pink ruffles and makeup, because I always understood that it was for the character I was performing as.
I also rode horses and worked on a farm. So the pink tutu's were balanced out with fixing fences, shoveling manure, and throwing hay bales around. And getting really dirty. I was usually the only 'girl' working out in the fields during hay season, so I guess I kinda learned how to be a boy on the farm.
I'm sure I still move in a very feminine way sometimes, but 14 years of formal ballet training takes a lot of work to undo. Call me out on it, and I'll belch in your face after I finish chugging my beer.
Quote from: kyle_lawrence on May 05, 2010, 08:33:21 PM
I also rode horses and worked on a farm. So the pink tutu's were balanced out with fixing fences, shoveling manure, and throwing hay bales around. And getting really dirty. I was usually the only 'girl' working out in the fields during hay season, so I guess I kinda learned how to be a boy on the farm.
Haha, I love how some people think that horseback riding is somehow girly. You get sweaty, covered in dirt, horse slobber/fur and hay and you have to spend quite some time cleaning the same stuff off of your horse before and after you ride. Mucking stalls is a picnic. And while I've never broken a bone, I've been thrown off, kicked at, stomped on, nipped, had my shoulder clamped on so he could toss me around like a ragdoll in front of a small child, and one horse even tried to poo on my head while I was picking his back hoof.
Oh but English riding is
sooo dainty. Pfft.
I miss riding. :(
Riding sidesaddle...as is "lady like" is utterly rediculous and whoever invented it should be glad they are probbably long dead. -grumbles- :p
Side saddle allowed dresses to be worn while riding, no more and no less. No dress = no side saddle so I never even tried it, no sleeping on a horse is another matter.
LOL how did sleeping go?
Quite easy to sleep on a cooperative horse, being a morgan helps as apposed to a shetland or something.
Whether we like it or not, since we were born into female bodies our family and society have certain expectations of us and will force them on us. Over time we learned to adapted and all of us have had to put on a facade of some sort. Transitioning for me releases those forced behavours I tried too hard to do but always felt wrong and unnatural. Now I can express my maleness with less judgement and, for once, can be myself.
However, decades of conditioning don't disappear overnight and I have to learn that I
can let go of some of those traits forced on me. It's not that I'm trying to force manly characters and traits, it's me learning I can embrace them now and start showing my true self.
Post Merge: May 06, 2010, 10:37:05 AM
Quote from: Ryan on May 05, 2010, 08:55:55 AMI was always told off by teachers for my "unladylike" behaviour. Not just my interests and dress sense, but the way I held my body, the way I sat, etc.
The story of my life. However once I started transitioning I'm shocked at how many, many traits and habits of mine are male and I just didn't know it- like bathroom etiquette. Mine's so male it's not funny but I never thought twice about it. It's amazing how the small things are second nature to us. I wonder if it's wired in or we just learned habits from watching males while growing up. Most likely a mix of both.
My sisters took dance and baton lessons. I took guitar. And hung out in the dairy barn across the street with the other neighborhood boys, and we also caught frogs and snails and crayfish, and built forts and whatnot.
I was also glad to have a little brother to play cars with.
Jay
Quote from: Radar on May 06, 2010, 11:34:39 AM
However, decades of conditioning don't disappear overnight and I have to learn that I can let go of some of those traits forced on me. It's not that I'm trying to force manly characters and traits, it's me learning I can embrace them now and start showing my true self.
I agree. I'm having to work through my habits and mannerisms, trying to find what is me, what feels natural, and what was just an act.
RE: prom/high school dances
I never went to a single dance all throughout school (to include middle school, high school, and college). I knew that I'd be expected to dance with a boy, wear a dress, and wear makeup. I also knew I would have to act like it was a big deal and take all these pictures that I knew I'd hate.
So I never went. A lot of these feeling were before I realized I liked girls and was transgender. Go figure.
I'm sure my mom was disappointed the first couple times I refused to go, and when I didn't go to my senior prom, I'm sure she was a little upset (although she denied it). But that just wasn't, and still isn't, who I am. I don't understand what there is to get excited about.
Quote from: Radar on May 06, 2010, 11:34:39 AM
However, decades of conditioning don't disappear overnight and I have to learn that I can let go of some of those traits forced on me. It's not that I'm trying to force manly characters and traits, it's me learning I can embrace them now and start showing my true self.
I guess I didn't really have any significant conditioning where gender expression is concerned. Once my parents realised that I didn't enjoy typical "girl stuff" (at a very young age might I add) and that being forced into it made me angry and miserable, they just let me be who I wanted to be.
I was often told by teachers that I wasn't very ladylike or whatever, but again, they just got used to it. I was always one of the boys and people just accepted me how I was.
Then the wonders of puberty hit.
Although, it still didn't affect my male mannerisms. I grew my hair long and wore it tied up. Still wearing male clothes as female ones weren't an option for me.
I always acted and dressed male as it was the only thing I knew how to do and felt comfortable with. Difference from 14 onwards is that I was a very withdrawn and depressed male.
Quote from: brainiac on May 05, 2010, 09:04:06 PM
Haha, I love how some people think that horseback riding is somehow girly.
I miss riding. :(
I think the same people who think it's girly also believe it's not a sport because "all you have to do is sit there." I miss riding too. I actually have a lesson next week after not riding for almost 4 years. I'm expecting to be laughing at myself a lot. I was visiting my old barn recently, and the owner (who I showed with for 10 years) kept casually pointing out all the horses that need more work, so I could be riding a lot again soon.
I think trans behavior is a complex matrix of nature and nurture. Even though we are programmed in our brain to act our gender, society brings us up in the other gender and we learn these behaviors and they can be hard to shake. I remember how ever since I was little I would sit down to pee and cross my legs in a very feminine way. However, society forced me to act male, and even now some of that still affects my behavoir. It was actually pretty recently that I learned not to hold in my tears when I wanted to cry, because since I was raised as a boy I was taught not to show my feelings. I think one big part of transition is to learn the things that we didn't get to learn in our childhood when it comes to behaving in our gender.
I believe that people have been conditioned into the wrong gender. I have to work on changing myself because I forced myself to be more feminine when I was younger. I'm a pretty effeminate guy, though, all in all, so it's not too much trouble. I grew up hating my body and the only time I was happy with my body was when guys called me hot, I was so happy. Even though I hated my breasts, I took pictures of them and considered even becoming a prosyitute, even though it disgusted me so, so badly... I didn't value myself at all. Albiet, this is less feminine than it is slutty, etc, but I have purposely learned to walk sexy, talk with a higher, smoother tone, etc. I now train my voice to go low and sound masculine.
Just what I went through.
(I didn't mention that I absolutely HATE frontal sex, virgin, I can't even think about it. It makes me retch and the idea of actually doing it, it makes me feel ill and likely to vomit.)
I used to ride, its a great workout. I miss it too.
Quote from: TheAetherealMeadow on May 06, 2010, 10:50:11 PM
It was actually pretty recently that I learned not to hold in my tears when I wanted to cry, because since I was raised as a boy I was taught not to show my feelings.
I was born female and I would emulate my bro and dad and never, ever cry. I regret it now and I want to show emotions to get closer to people but I feel disgusting and weak for even beginning to cry. Good luck to you, I need some as well.
Speaking of crying, although this has nothing to do with my gender identity... I cry far too often. When I get really angry my response is to tear up, and I hate it. I've been making a conscious effort lately to repress the tears, because they get me unwanted sympathy when I just want to be left alone...
Yeah, I'm the same way with not wanting sympathy. I can't even cry alone without wanting to injure myself for it. If I were you, I would immediately attempt to remove yourself from the situation, and if that's not possible, just act pissy and get under a hoodie, or something, acting all angry.
Post Merge: May 06, 2010, 11:53:48 PM
Quote from: Adio on May 06, 2010, 03:44:17 PM
RE: prom/high school dances
I'm sure my mom was disappointed the first couple times I refused to go, and when I didn't go to my senior prom, I'm sure she was a little upset (although she denied it). But that just wasn't, and still isn't, who I am. I don't understand what there is to get excited about.
I didn't go to my prom this year, but I went to homecoming and our Winter Carnival and it was hell. I was in a dress AND it wasn't even remotely fun. When I didn't go to prom this year my mum threw up a fit and I explained that I didn't have a suit and that I rejected a guy. I was the guy's final choice and pick, I KNOW I was. I have been treated crap by guys for all my life, I'm not pretty and I'm kind of thankful that I'm not.
"Why would you wear a suit? I'm sure the guy would appreciate you dressing as him!" (Sarcasm here.)
I can't even explain how much this confounded and angered me, ugh. Worst of all, at the time, she thought I was into girls and she fully expected me to suck it up and go to prom in a dress and with a guy as a straight trans guy. I just don't care, never have. The pictures, the drama over it, all the whatever. I go to dances to dance not to sit around squawking over guys... if you like a guy go dance with him instead of keeping me down because I don't want to be the one person alone dancing and there's several huge groups. I get so peeved sometimes.
Quote from: Farm Boy on May 06, 2010, 11:34:49 PM
Speaking of crying, although this has nothing to do with my gender identity... I cry far too often. When I get really angry my response is to tear up, and I hate it. I've been making a conscious effort lately to repress the tears, because they get me unwanted sympathy when I just want to be left alone...
I'm exactly the same way with tearing up when I'm angry! I actually think it's a good thing though, because the sadness tends to dissipate my anger and put things into perspective without anger clouding things. What causes me to tear up is because I find the fact that I'm angry at someone (especially if it's someone close to me) to be a very sad thing in of itself, and I rarely stay angry for long as a result.
QuoteI go to dances to dance not to sit around squawking over guys... if you like a guy go dance with him instead of keeping me down because I don't want to be the one person alone dancing and there's several huge groups.
High school dances were not my idea of fun, in any way, shape, or form. Even the casual ones I wore jeans and T-shirts to. I never wanted to go, but occasionally my friends would beg me to, insisting that we'd all hang out and have a good time.
Every time, without fail, they all paired off and danced, leaving me standing alone by the wall, wishing I was somewhere quiet. I'm not much for socializing or dancing, though. Blasting music, crowds of people... not my idea of a good time.
QuoteWhat causes me to tear up is because I find the fact that I'm angry at someone (especially if it's someone close to me) to be a very sad thing in of itself
I cry because... I don't know why. I think the only sadness involved though is that I can never express myself or say what is truly on my mind. But that just makes me angry, so... lol
Quote from: TheAetherealMeadow on May 06, 2010, 10:50:11 PM
I think trans behavior is a complex matrix of nature and nurture. Even though we are programmed in our brain to act our gender, society brings us up in the other gender and we learn these behaviors and they can be hard to shake. I remember how ever since I was little I would sit down to pee and cross my legs in a very feminine way. However, society forced me to act male, and even now some of that still affects my behavoir. It was actually pretty recently that I learned not to hold in my tears when I wanted to cry, because since I was raised as a boy I was taught not to show my feelings. I think one big part of transition is to learn the things that we didn't get to learn in our childhood when it comes to behaving in our gender.
I guess what I was trying to say is there's a pretty firm limit on what society can do - this varies with the individual, of course, but in my case the answer was "not very much." I picked up male social conditioning cues, not female ones, despite everyone's best efforts. But male social conditioning cues can't fully override female hormone balances, so things like crying and sex drive and our experience of sexual attraction are going to vary with our hormonal sex rather than our brain sex.
On the high school dance thing, I actually had a ton of fun at them. It helped that my group of friends was the band nerd/drama geek/sciency types, and actually my close friends were a particular subset of that group that later would turn out to be overwhelmingly LGBT. So we never got into the whole heteronormative popularity contest thing, we just went and had fun and were ourselves, and nobody was going to say a damn thing to us given that our group included the class president (my best friend, a gay guy) and the head cheerleader (trans guy. Seriously. He was straight though, so he came out early on.)
Quote from: kyril on May 07, 2010, 12:28:10 AM
I guess what I was trying to say is there's a pretty firm limit on what society can do - this varies with the individual, of course, but in my case the answer was "not very much." I picked up male social conditioning cues, not female ones, despite everyone's best efforts. But male social conditioning cues can't fully override female hormone balances, so things like crying and sex drive and our experience of sexual attraction are going to vary with our hormonal sex rather than our brain sex.
On the high school dance thing, I actually had a ton of fun at them. It helped that my group of friends was the band nerd/drama geek/sciency types, and actually my close friends were a particular subset of that group that later would turn out to be overwhelmingly LGBT. So we never got into the whole heteronormative popularity contest thing, we just went and had fun and were ourselves, and nobody was going to say a damn thing to us given that our group included the class president (my best friend, a gay guy) and the head cheerleader (trans guy. Seriously. He was straight though, so he came out early on.)
This leads me to see how different high school is from when I was there. Vast difference that I would almost not believe you if I didn't often work in schools and often enough in a very large high school.
Quote from: LordKAT on May 07, 2010, 04:35:18 AMThis leads me to see how different high school is from when I was there.Vast difference that I would almost not believe you if I didn't often work in schools and often enough in a very large high school.
So true. I'm happy (yet also jealous) that the younger guys grew up in a more tolerant, educated society- at least compared to what it used to be like.
Quote from: Adio on May 05, 2010, 11:30:04 AM
It's the old nature versus nurture argument. I believe in nature and nurture.
I think nurture is nature, as in we are subject to conditioning because of our nature. We are built to change and adapt to our environment to maximize survival and reproduction.
Gender identity reminds me a lot of homosexuality in this sense. It should technically be un-beneficial that gay people (and other animals) don't breed and yet it has always existed. In various cultures there have always been transgendered people. Why? The whole idea of genetics/natural-selection is that there must be some benefit or it would have been eliminated. I mention this because if you assume being trans-gender is a mechanism for some unknown purpose in evolution it really does make sense as a function; that if someones propensity is to act more like the opposite gender naturally then we of course would feel drawn to assimilate with them, and become that gender.
I know I can sometimes dismiss my gender issues too much by focusing on the problem of gender as a social construct. "Am I a really so petty that I'd f--k up my body so I can wear trousers and sit with my legs open?" but that's over simplifying. if women acted like men do, would we happily be women? I'm not so sure.
i know tom boys and butch lesbians who wouldn't want to be a man, but have masculine qualities. and of course the converse of feminine men. so we know that femininity and masculinity are not fixed by sex, because they have those mannerisms themselves. whats the difference between me and an extremely masculine lesbian who's happy as she is? that drive.
I think what is in us, is a genuine need to be the OTHER gender, not to be a collection of idiosyncrasies, and that desire subconsciously allows us to absorb some of those mannerisms automatically. think of body language just in general? we didn't sit in a classroom and learn it consciously. we just absorbed it via socialization.
the desire to be male is the end point, the mannerism is the means. humans are complicated with a lot of greyness, but ultimately if you obsess on that, on the means and not the point, you are bound to question what the hell is true. i think we assimilated from society aspects of the opposite gender role that we, for some reason, inherently gravitated towards. The hormones or surgery, the behaviors; they are only to help us be accepted as the gender we naturally feel we are. These things are the means, and that is why they are optional, yet for many, necessary to feel recognized as what they "already are".
Funnily enough (I just made up that word-- funnily) I just got into an argument with my mom over my prom dress a few hours ago-- and my prom was over six years ago! We've had my prom dress sitting in my cousin's closet since I was in high school and I haven't taken it out since and he cleaned out his closet and I was ready to throw it away and my mom freaked out. Apparently I might need it at some point. Yeah. Right. :-\ She won of course. The dress is now hanging in her closet (it's Mother's Day. I HAD to let her win).
That is rather funny. I never had a prom dress but maybe your mother hopes and hoards.
you could use it in a play, or to dress in drag (that's a mind <not allowed>!), or for a halloween costume, or for your kid to use if you ever have one, or to appease ball room dance loving burglars.
maaaannnnny uses. :)
All good ideas. I still have mine from 3 years ago and I've been trying to sell it...
Do you have any female relatives who might want it? Cousins, nieces? Your mom might be more inclined to let it go if it went to someone in the family.
oh! oh! IVE GOT IT!
find a life size statue of a man and sew it on under the cover of darkness.
edgyyyy
Quote from: jimmymot on May 10, 2010, 01:23:03 AM
oh! oh! IVE GOT IT!
find a life size statue of a man and sew it on under the cover of darkness.
edgyyyy
Great idea, lets just do that to a lot of statues anyway.
Quote from: LordKAT on May 10, 2010, 02:21:47 AM
Great idea, lets just do that to a lot of statues anyway.
ROAD TRIP! :D
Or, regarding unwanted prom dresses, donate it to something like the princess project or the glass slipper project (on their website they have a list of sister organizations in various states, too). Who can really argue with charity?
I don't even know what happened to my prom dresses.