Hiee,
I have musing about this for some time now, well actually since my Orchie back in May of this year.
My musings are mostly concerned with M->F's but would apply to F-M's to some degree although differing proceedures are indicated.
Back in the days (GRS)/SRS was commonly called a Sex change operation, primarily because and orchiectomy was bundled with the vaginioplasty. Today that is NO longer the case as Orchie's can be had on their own account much more readily then in the past.
The issue being, either an orchiectomy or hystorectomy is actually the operation that changes ones hormonal system by eliminating the organs that actually produce the birthsex Hormone in any quantities.
I consider myself to be Post-Op albeit a Vaginioplasty Pre-Op which in my case is only a cosmetic surgory anyhow although one that will allow my mind to be much more at peace.
OOOHHHHH aren't Labels sooooooooo much FUN ::)
Comments anyone?
Byee,
Brina
FtM's same - we have three possible areas of surgery. Top, hysto, and bottom. Many of us just get the first one or two and never want bottom surgery. I'd say you're post op when you want to call yourself that.
Dennis
Hiee Denis,
I guess for me the post-op label would come into being when one has had an operation to change the bodies hormones irrevocably. Some post-op M->F's I have had contact with in the past seem to think that SRS only is what constitues a post-op and seem to fail to realize that for us the orchie is the actually gender changing surgory as I think a hysto would be for F->M's.
Byee,
Brina
I would have to agree with your analogy in that the orchie is the actual sex changing part of the process, like you said the inability to produce your birth hormone has been changed as a result you will begin to develop secondary sexual characteristics prevalent in the bodies new role. Years ago I saw a picture of a MtoF that had not under gone actual SRS, I think she was a dentist or something, her testis were surgically and permanently implanted to her abdomen and her penis was inverted to form a vagina her breast were surgically implanted and FFS was done she took no HRT but looked completely female. I wish I could remember her name.....
One very cool thing, not to change the subject but ever sense I began certain HRT meds I am no longer able to gain an erection ;D but the cool part is that I can push that nasty thing up inside of me a small strei strip and its is held in place. So I suppose when I have my orchie and the sack removed I will have the smooth look I so want, a urethra reroute and stuff the nasty up inside me and see no reason why I could not call myself a post op woman also. :)
Depends on the person's definitions... I'm a bit traditional. To me, it means GRS, vaginoplasty, etc. To others, it may not.
No big deal; these kind of definitions aren't that important on a day-to-day basis although I'm not entirely sure how the UK's Gender Recognition Panel sees things or how it would be defined under my own country's laws on birth certificates/passports etc. Interesting question.
But I don't go around with a badge saying 'post-op' on my sleeve like a boy scout. :D
Quote from: Stormy Weather on November 29, 2006, 10:46:33 AM
Depends on the person's definitions... I'm a bit traditional. To me, it means GRS, vaginoplasty, etc. To others, it may not.
No big deal; these kind of definitions aren't that important on a day-to-day basis although I'm not entirely sure how the UK's Gender Recognition Panel sees things or how it would be defined under my own country's laws on birth certificates/passports etc. Interesting question.
But I don't go around with a badge saying 'post-op' on my sleeve like a boy scout. :D
Very true I suppose that part of it would be how a person feels about were they are in there transition. I look at like this, do GG have testis? NO. Can a GG have an erection? NO. so if you to can answer NO to the same questions then you would be considered safe among GG's and sense only other women are considered safe then you must be a woman. However, you have raised and interesting question on the legal side, I suppose if you found a doctor that would agree with your definition then they could in fact give you the documentation one might need to alter birth records etc.
QuoteI guess for me the post-op label would come into being when one has had an operation to change the bodies hormones irrevocably. Some post-op M->F's I have had contact with in the past seem to think that SRS only is what constitues a post-op and seem to fail to realize that for us the orchie is the actually gender changing surgory as I think a hysto would be for F->M's.
I hope that if I ever need a hysterectomy that it wouldn't turn me into a man. Yes, these labels are very confusing!
I kind of thought that post-Op meant that body has been surgically altered in a way that it the genitalia completely resembles one gender or the other and for the most part signalled end of transition. This is because that's what Jocelyn is talking about when she tells me about wanting to be post-Op, so please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of this!
Hiee,
To clarrify a few issues. The surgories I was refering to are surgories performed on Transexuals as Transexual surgories and not as in the case of a natal woman a standard hysto or an orchie in the case of a man. The surgories are performed on generally healthy organs to REMOVE the birthsex hormone and NOT generally due to other medical complications.
In Canada in most if not all jurisdictions if the surgory is performed as an irreversable transexual surgory and the surgeon and an independent doctor both agree that it is as above and that the individuals gender should be changed then usually there is no problem in having the birth records changed to the target gender.
Byee,
Brina
Quote from: angelsgirl on November 29, 2006, 02:25:54 PM
QuoteI guess for me the post-op label would come into being when one has had an operation to change the bodies hormones irrevocably. Some post-op M->F's I have had contact with in the past seem to think that SRS only is what constitues a post-op and seem to fail to realize that for us the orchie is the actually gender changing surgory as I think a hysto would be for F->M's.
I hope that if I ever need a hysterectomy that it wouldn't turn me into a man. Yes, these labels are very confusing!
I kind of thought that post-Op meant that body has been surgically altered in a way that it the genitalia completely resembles one gender or the other and for the most part signalled end of transition. This is because that's what Jocelyn is talking about when she tells me about wanting to be post-Op, so please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of this!
Not wrong just a different view............
Quote from: angelsgirl on November 29, 2006, 02:25:54 PM
I hope that if I ever need a hysterectomy that it wouldn't turn me into a man. Yes, these labels are very confusing!
I kind of thought that post-Op meant that body has been surgically altered in a way that it the genitalia completely resembles one gender or the other and for the most part signalled end of transition. This is because that's what Jocelyn is talking about when she tells me about wanting to be post-Op, so please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of this!
Turn you into a man... not a chance in "he double hockysticks" angelsgirl. :) There are two views on GRS/SRS for MtF one is where some believe that simply removing the testes is sufficient to be legally eligible to change the gender marker, as do many Dr and therapists. Then there is the other side of the coin where there are those who feel/believe that complete removal of the genitals and reconstruction of a neo vagina must take place, and again this is also supported by many Dr and therapists.
Personally, for myself, there has to be complete acceptance of the TS person by others, and by this there should be no doubt that you are a woman. For example, for me I should be able to stand naked in the women's change room and no one will bat an eye lid. I'm not so sure that a person who has had a ochi would be able to do that.
Steph
To me, Post-Op constitutes Post Sex Reassignment Surgery/Male to Female Vaginoplasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_male-to-female), meaning that there has to be a vaginal cavity present along with labia, a repositioned urethra, and a clitoris.
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Hi Brina.
Orchiectomies and hysterectomies are sufficient to change legal gender in some states.
So, as you said, technically these are the sex changing surgeries.
However, if an MtF told me she was post-op, I would assume she'd had a vaginoplasty.
If an FtM called himself post-op, I'd assume he'd had a masectomy.
Because these are the most common surgeries.
In my world if you can walk into a gender appropriate locker room, that is appropriate to the gender you identify with, and take off all your clothes and not shock anyone with what's between your legs, then you're post op.
When we are born they look between our legs to determine gender. That's the way this society does things. I know how I feel inside but they won't accept that as proof of gender. If you're a transitioning TS and can pass the between the legs test then you're post op. That's just me. I don't want to have to do any explaining as to why I'm female if I still have a penis between my legs.
Julie
Hiee,
Well I guess I have certainly learned something from this thread to date. To put it most BLUNTLY I am most saddened by the responses. It truly bothers me that only about 10 MAYBE 15% of transexuals ever arrive at the point of actually having FULL SRS and by the reasoning I have seen so far they are not post-op and therefor not truly female and to extend that should NOT be able to change their respective gender marker. Personally I would never dream of going into a womans change room OR Even a Gym until after my vaginioplasty and therefor the issue's raised seem moot to me. Some of you work in MALE mode and others are in postions of being well protected by Government policies regarding transgenders. My Question is WHAT about those who are afforded NO Protections currently? While the current rules aren't exactly broken they can sure use improvement in my opinion. We are trying to make life safer and easier for all Transexuals are we NOT!
Byee,
Brina
Hello Brina.
Quote from: brina on November 30, 2006, 08:50:47 AM
Hiee,
Well I guess I have certainly learned something from this thread to date. To put it most BLUNTLY I am most saddened by the responses. It truly bothers me that only about 10 MAYBE 15% of transexuals ever arrive at the point of actually having FULL SRS and by the reasoning I have seen so far they are not post-op and therefor not truly female and to extend that should NOT be able to change their respective gender marker. Personally I would never dream of going into a womans change room OR Even a Gym until after my vaginioplasty and therefor the issue's raised seem moot to me. Some of you work in MALE mode and others are in postions of being well protected by Government policies regarding transgenders. My Question is WHAT about those who are afforded NO Protections currently? While the current rules aren't exactly broken they can sure use improvement in my opinion. We are trying to make life safer and easier for all Transexuals are we NOT!
Byee,
Brina
I think that you will find that the replies were personal opinions, and personal opinions only. And as far as those who are afforded no protections then it is up to you to do something about it, or at least do something about it in your area.
Steph
That is the way I believe that if you are in a dressing room in your bithday suit that you wouldn't be noticed. I do believe that getting an Orchi is like have SRS in that you have irreversible surgery and you should be able to do what you want as a woman. The same applies for the hystorectomy. It isn't about your physiology, its about what is between your ears. If you are a woman and have a total or partial hysto, you are still a woman. If you have had cancer of the testes or whatever else that will take them off, that doesn't make you a woman you are still a man if that is how you feel. I know when I had my orchi they let me change all my paper work to female. The most validating piece of paper was from my therapist. I have gone to dressing rooms after my orchi and you have to be discreet about it. Just like most FtoM will most likely have to be a little more discreet about going into a dressing room. It can be done very effectively.
Sheila
Quote from: Sheila on November 30, 2006, 01:06:30 PM
That is the way I believe that if you are in a dressing room in your bithday suit that you wouldn't be noticed. I do believe that getting an Orchi is like have SRS in that you have irreversible surgery and you should be able to do what you want as a woman. The same applies for the hystorectomy. It isn't about your physiology, its about what is between your ears. If you are a woman and have a total or partial hysto, you are still a woman. If you have had cancer of the testes or whatever else that will take them off, that doesn't make you a woman you are still a man if that is how you feel. I know when I had my orchi they let me change all my paper work to female. The most validating piece of paper was from my therapist. I have gone to dressing rooms after my orchi and you have to be discreet about it. Just like most FtoM will most likely have to be a little more discreet about going into a dressing room. It can be done very effectively.
Sheila
I'm pretty sure that most places allow for gender markers to be changed for a person having letters from therapists and an ochi. I believe that others get confused with the notion that a man can have an ochi because of cancer and that person is still a man. Then if a person goes through therapy and has an ochi approved is considered a woman, as sheila said it's what's between the ears.
And for Brina
I would just like to reiterate my position on this. The question was asked "What constitutes a post-op?" and I simply stated my answer. I didn't say I was right, I gave my opinion, and I will go further by saying that I can understand that a MtF would want to have an ochi in order to cut down on meds, a smart thing to do, I even considered doing the same thing. However I don't think that an ochi can be considered as gender reassignment surgery. And I would also question a MtF's motives for not wanting full GRS after an ochi. Why would a woman want to retain a penis?
Just my humble opinion.
Steph
Quote from: Steph on November 30, 2006, 01:46:34 PM
Why would a woman want to retain a penis?
Um, maybe she is turned on by them and wants easy access to one. ??? I can't really say for sure, since I have never particularly liked them on me nor anyone else, but especially on me.
Melissa
Steph wrote
"
However I don't think that an ochi can be considered as gender reassignment surgery. And I would also question a MtF's motives for not wanting full GRS after an ochi. Why would a woman want to retain a penis?
"
So in other words for those who are unable to afford a FULL SRS in one swipe of the knife, they should have to endure perhaps years if not a life time of living in the Gender Twilight Zone! Personally I find that most appauling and most certainly un-sympathetic to the under priviledged within our ranks. As to PENIS retention I seroiusly doubt if anyone after having undergone an orchiectomy would truly have a desire to keep it, however; not everyone has the fiscal resources to move to the final stage swiftly. Its no wonder so precious little gets done to advance the cause of transexualism when the very ones who have battled it support the very views of the society that causes the oppression to begin with. Two or three years ago I read several generalized articles written about transexuals. At the time I thought to myself what BS this stuff is. Since then its become rather painfully aware to me that they had it right in way more ways then not. It really saddens me to see that.
Byee,
Brina
Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 29, 2006, 10:24:22 PM
To me, Post-Op constitutes Post Sex Reassignment Surgery/Male to Female Vaginoplasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_surgery_male-to-female), meaning that there has to be a vaginal cavity present along with labia, a repositioned urethra, and a clitoris.
What Tink said. :)
The following is my opinion, nothing more...
What ever gender you identify with is what makes you male or female. Physical appearance has nothing to do with it until.......
you are judged by the public. That is changing, but ever so slowly.
I've often wondered if society was completely ant totally accepting of MTF and FTM people, there was no negative stigma, no prejudice, no discrimination, it was just as natural as breathing... would we still want FFS, SRS or other surgeries? You wouldn't need them to pass because passing wouldn't be an issue in avoiding the stigma, prejudice, etc because there would be none.
Where I'm going is, if we wouldn't need the surgeries because they wouldn't be required to pass in every situation, then our brain gender is all that would truly define us. And I believe that. Being post op will allow me to blend into the world of women, including in the locker room. That's important to me if I want to be seen as a normal member of this society. And I do.
Bi-gendered brainwashing begins at birth and it's so deeply ingrained in us we often can't see that it's our brain, not our body, that defines who we are and that includes gender. But I am not saying I wouldn't have SRS because I don't know how much the brainwashing is affecting my decision.
Again, this is only my opinion. I hope I didn't confuse anyone though.
Julie
Quote from: Melissa on November 30, 2006, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: Steph on November 30, 2006, 01:46:34 PM
Why would a woman want to retain a penis?
Um, maybe she is turned on by them and wants easy access to one. ??? I can't really say for sure, since I have never particularly liked them on me nor anyone else, but especially on me.
Melissa
If a "transsexual woman" wants to keep that *thing* there because *it* turns them on or enjoys using *it*, I'm sorry to say but
that person IS NEITHER transsexual NOR a woman.tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Quote from: brina on November 30, 2006, 05:21:07 PM
Steph wrote
"
However I don't think that an ochi can be considered as gender reassignment surgery. And I would also question a MtF's motives for not wanting full GRS after an ochi. Why would a woman want to retain a penis?
"
So in other words for those who are unable to afford a FULL SRS in one swipe of the knife, they should have to endure perhaps years if not a life time of living in the Gender Twilight Zone! Personally I find that most appauling and most certainly un-sympathetic to the under priviledged within our ranks. As to PENIS retention I seroiusly doubt if anyone after having undergone an orchiectomy would truly have a desire to keep it, however; not everyone has the fiscal resources to move to the final stage swiftly. Its no wonder so precious little gets done to advance the cause of transexualism when the very ones who have battled it support the very views of the society that causes the oppression to begin with. Two or three years ago I read several generalized articles written about transexuals. At the time I thought to myself what BS this stuff is. Since then its become rather painfully aware to me that they had it right in way more ways then not. It really saddens me to see that.
Byee,
Brina
I'm not going to joust with you Brina, but you are not reading my words. Nowhere do I mention anything about money what I did say and I quote
QuoteAnd I would also question a MtF's motives for not wanting full GRS after an ochi. Why would a woman want to retain a penis?
Notice the words "not
wanting" and "
want to retain". Nowhere do I support societies views of TS, nowwhere do I mention finance or related issues, but I would add that until GRS is funded by the state, a TS facing GRS should be doing every thing possible to get the funds to do it even if it means working three to four jobs.
And I how can you possibly say that precious little gets done to advance the cause of TSism, I don't quite know what you are getting at and to who or what your remarks refer.
And for the record I'll restate that I do not suport any notion that an ochi is Gender reasignment surgery, but that GRS is as outlined by Tinkerbell in her post "...that there has to be a vaginal cavity present along with labia, a repositioned urethra, and a clitoris...." What is so wrong with that?
Steph
Quote from: Steph on November 30, 2006, 07:21:33 PM
And for the record I'll restate that I do not suport any notion that an ochi is Gender reasignment surgery
Steph
Of course it isn't! There are many men who undergo orchiectomies for a number of medical conditions. Does this mean that they have undergone gender reassignment surgery then? ???
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tinkerbell on November 30, 2006, 07:15:02 PM
Quote from: Melissa on November 30, 2006, 02:27:15 PM
Quote from: Steph on November 30, 2006, 01:46:34 PM
Why would a woman want to retain a penis?
Um, maybe she is turned on by them and wants easy access to one. ??? I can't really say for sure, since I have never particularly liked them on me nor anyone else, but especially on me.
Melissa
If a "transsexual woman" wants to keep that *thing* there because *it* turns them on or enjoys using *it*, I'm sorry to say but that person IS NEITHER transsexual NOR a woman.
You are mincing my words. First of all it was meant to be a joke suggestion. Secondly, I was saying she is turned on by penises in general and for whatever reason, she may want to have easy access to one and is keeping it only out of convenience. Honestly though, I can't imagine any woman wanting to retain one for whatever reason.
Melissa
It doesn't become gender reassignment until you start to live as the target gender, in my opinion.
I could get a vaginoplasty and all the trimmings and if I continue to present and live as a man has my gender really been reassigned?
Sex reassignment it may be but not gender reassignment.
An orchie is an operation. So, if I have one then I'll be a "post-op." If I live and present as a female then I'll have had my gender "reassigned" no matter what state the plumbing is in or what feelings I have about it. And unless I win the lottery or my relatives die and leave me a small fortune that'll be all I'll get and all I'll need.
hugs & smiles
helen
Interesting Question.
Under the UK Gender Recognition Act 2004, you can legally change your Gender on your birth certificate if you have lived for 2 years minimum after name and documentation changes and with two medical reports from experts on an approved list issued by the Gender Recognition panel.
There is no prerequisite to have Gender Reassignment Surgery as part of this recognition process in order to change your birth certificate, just a formal diagnosis of Transsexualism (or GID) and to meet the criteria.
Orchidectomy in my opinion is just a surgical method to remove testosterone from the body and Post Op, as Tinkerbell has said, full Gender Reassignment Surgery involves removal of the male sex organs and construction of a neo-vagina.
Buffy
Quote from: brina on November 30, 2006, 08:50:47 AM
To put it most BLUNTLY I am most saddened by the responses.
Why start a discussion if you expect everyone to agree with you? You asked, we said.
I'm sorry if this is going to upset some people, but I'm very rigorous about these sorts of things. We can argue until we're blue in the face, but I would think to most people here 'post-op' means just one thing. But as others point out, being 'post-op' says nothing about your acceptance by other women as a woman
but that's not we're talking about.
The perceived desire to even apply that label to yourself says more about you than it does about others.
Personally, I'm getting a bit fed-up with the dilution of the real-life test, blurring of definitions and other compromises that people take on in order to call themselves one thing or another. But as I said, I'm old-skool about this; more than ever, after years of scoffing at the notion, I've come round to believe in those old definitions of 'primary' and 'secondary' TS. I may get flamed for this but that's just the way I feel.
Hiee,
Firstly to clarrify issues here. I am scheduled to have vagiano,labia, and clitia plasty with Dr. Sanguan in Phuket Thailand on October 9,2007. I have recieved an e-mail from someone including a photo of their results from him. I have been disturbed by the photo and have since forwarded it to Dr. Sanguan and inguiring as to what happened. I expect to hear an explanation of why the results are as they are OR that he DIDN'T perform the sugory in question!
I have had my Radical Orchiectomy and it was performed AS an Transexual Surgory and not for any other Underlying conditions! I required a letter from my Pychiatrist stating that I was indeed diagnosed as being G.I.D. of the male to female type before the Urologist would proceed with the operation. My endocrine system has been irreverseably changed now so that I MUST take estrogen or face menopause. As menopause IS NOT a male condition then it is a female condition and in this case brought about by the orchiectomy and therefor a GENDER CHANGING operation. In that light I have been able to change my gender and NOW will be able to return to Ft. McMurray and live in the camp without any undue harrasement from the men there. This will afford me the opportunity to proceed with getting my Cosmetic SRS which other wise I might not have been able to DO. I am the first to admit that I am limited in certain activities that I can partake in. These all are centered around any situation where I might be nude in front of other NATAL woman. As this would cause me great discomfort as well as discomfort to them I will have to avoid them in the short forseeable future. I might POINT OUT AT THIS POINT THAT THIS IS PURELY BASED UPON APPEARNCE AND NOT UPON BIOLOGY.
For those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name a few and it disgusts me.
For the person who mentioned working 3 and 4 jobs, I might point out that not everyone has a nice plushy office environment to work in.
Oh screw it I'm REALLY REALLY Disgusted at the moment!
Good bye
Brina
Quote from: brina on December 01, 2006, 09:51:00 AM
For those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name a few and it disgusts me.
Your original question was:
What constitutes a post-op?I believe most people in this thread have answered that question
on those terms. Getting upset about other things, other terms and definitons, isn't going to help.
POST OP is intrinsically tied into having ones gender records changed which in a round about and perhaps tricky way was my attempt at getting to the gist of the mentallity as so expressed.
Byee,
Brina
Quote from: brina on December 01, 2006, 10:17:43 AM
POST OP is intrinsically tied into having ones gender records changed which in a round about and perhaps tricky way was my attempt at getting to the gist of the mentallity as so expressed.
So, even though I've had GRS, full vaginoplasty
and two follow-up ops and live mostly in stealth, I'm
not considered post-op because I haven't got round to getting my birth certificate or passport changed yet? Even though all my other ID has been and also my name by deed poll?
Sorry, but I'm just not following the point you are trying to make.
OK perhaps I should have said BEING ABLE to have those records changed. Although I do wonder why one would not get their birthrecord changed relatively quickly but I have yet to have my trade license diploma and wallet card changed to my new name and that is simply a matter of laziness on my part.
What pisses me off is the HANG UP on APPEARANCES. It was appearances that started this whole crock for me in the first place. I had male genitalia when born and so I was designated as male, well guess WHAT as it turns out I'm ACTUALLY FEMALE. Given that this is something that M->F's have to battle from the begining and all thru transiton, how stupid can they be to buy into it in the end!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess I better get off before I write something I may later regret.
Byee,
Brina
Edit: Language - Kate
Quote from: brina on December 01, 2006, 10:47:21 AM
Although I do wonder why one would not get their birthrecord changed relatively quickly
Because I no longer live permanently in the country of my birth and organising a lawyer from 12,000 miles away to handle the bureaucracy hasn't been a top priority until relatively recently. No need to wonder anymore. ;)
Quote from: BrinaFor those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name a few and it disgusts me.
For the nincumpoop who mentioned working 3 and 4 jobs, I might point out that not everyone has a nice plushy office environment to work in.
Oh screw it I'm REALLY REALLY Disgusted at the moment!
Good bye
Brina
Brina, no one here has demanded anything they, and I include myself, simply expressed opinions to your posts.
Oh yes as for working 3 and 4 jobs what on earth is wrong with that, I worked 3 myself, no one gave me any handouts, I didn't have a cushy office job, and what does working in an office have to do with anything, paying work is paying work, it matters not if you are picking up garbage from the gutters of the streets or a CEO, work is work.
Steph
The prevailing response was, when one hears "post-op", full SRS is assumed. If you feel happy calling yourself a post-op, then go ahead. Just don't expect people to realize you only mean an orchi when you say "I'm post-op".
Melissa
Brina, no one here has demanded anything they, and I include myself, simply expressed opinions to your posts.
The demand is partially implied. Given that to be able to change ones gender records requires one to have undergone a gender changing surgory and the prevailing response has been that UNLESS ONE HAS BOTH AN ORCHIECTOMY AND VAGIANOPLASTY then a gender change has not occured. Perhaps this is the badge of honour (questionable in my mind) that so many pre-ops complain about. I suppose for those who have had the Big 'O' and those who intend to have it in the very near future and have the resources for it they see no particular problems with the status quo. There is a reason why only 10 to 15% of diagnosed transexuals ever get to have surgory. Those who do either have the fiscal resources and/or have been able to jump thru the various hoops set before them by their respective government medical bodies and achieved state funding. What about the other 85 to 90% who this doesn't apply to?
The general consensus from the posts here seems to be to bad if your in gender limbo and run into discrimination and aren't protected by male or female human rights legislation. If you fail to achieve what I have its a shame. At the very least these 'Opinions/Attitudes' come accross to me as nothing short of being cruel and elitist in fundamental nature. These idea's in Canada I find very worrisome as its quite conceivable that the legislators might begin to think 'well if transexuals themselves think this way' then perhaps we should rethink our current policies (RE: turn back the clock).
I think I will go back to simply livng my life and not be overly bothered with the BS anymore. I have taken one TS into my home when she was facing eviction and life perhaps on the street. While her welfare doesn't cover all her expenses here it does help somewhat and I'm not going super in debt by having her here. Perhaps some day she will up and leave and I'll never see a penny of the added expenses, but it won't be the first time I've been burned in that respect. I will know though that I helped a sister when she was in trouble.
Byee,
Brina
Hmmm ... let me venture a toe out in traffic here. There's no debate here about me being post-op; I've had no surgeries, no real life experience (as female), no hormones, no therapist. I guess it's not rocket science to list my understanding of a course of action, at least for me:
A. Keep my marriage together.
B. Help my wife deal with this (and she is very supportive, but it is still a real real life experience).
C. Consultation with a Therapist.
D. Sufficient understanding of my condition to proceed or stop.
E. Electrolysis and/or other hair removal.
F. Hormone treatment.
G. Coming out to certain family and friends.
H. Coming out to job, or trade it in for either a more accepting work atmosphere,
or in a bit over a year I qualify for early Social Security (my pink parachute!) >:D
I. Two years Real Life Experience.
J. Orchiectomy.
K. S.R.S.
L. F.F.S.
M. Sit back and enjoy the results. Well, not actually.
Hey, lined out like that it doesn't sound so hard (Susan Kay ducks many thrown objects from the forum, leaping very unlady-like behind the couch.)
So, anyway, where in this list would I consider myself Post-Op? Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn! For me, life has never been a project to be completed; I would not ever expect to complete transition, even if I was starting at puberty; it's a lifetime experience. But, to answer the original, at first glance, innocuous, question, I think it applies to any person that has had one set of genitals removed and at least minimal genitals of the opposite sex installed TO THAT PERSON'S SATISFACTION!
Susan Kay
Just reviewing my list, and this is what I hate about lists, I forgot the legal aspects. I'll shoe-horn them in there some place, keeping in mind that I was born in Ohio, and I understand that they don't allow that appropriate and humane change.
Quote from: Tinkerbell on December 01, 2006, 07:43:57 PM
Quote from: brina on December 01, 2006, 10:47:21 AM
I do wonder why one would not get their birthrecord changed relatively quickly
Brina, not all of us are fortunate enough to have been born in a country or a state that lets you change your birth certificate relatively quickly. Here, in the US, not all states (except for California and a few others) will reissue you a new birth certificate even after full SRS. Other states will amend a birth certificate stating your new sex but will not issue you a new one. It is also important to mention that in many other foreign countries, transsexuals are not able to change any documentation whatsoever, and they are doomed to live their lives with indentifying documents which don't match who they are and what they look like even after gender reassignment surgery.
Quote from: Stephit matters not if you are picking up garbage from the gutters of the streets or a CEO, work is work.
:)
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
Yes Tink I am aware of that. The changes have to start somewhere. Fortunately I live in a country that seems to have some compasson for the plight of transexuals in transiton an has amended the appropriate legislation.
Perhaps in time and seeing by example other jurisdictions will see that the 'TroobieGirl' is actually a myth after all and will finally amend the legislation in their respect jurisdictions.
Speaking for myself, now that I am legally female in the eyes of the government, then my transition has certainly been made much easier in that I am now covered under the human rights codes of all jurisdictions as a female. This in turn has opened up possibilities that will now afford me the opportunity to EARN the money I NEED to proceed with my final operation to bring me Physically inline with my Perception of myself as well as Societies Perception of what I should look like.
I find it revolting that other T's would be of the opinion that I should not be allowed to do this and in effect be supportive of having a road block in my way or at the least making life more difficult then it already is. I consider myself to be reasonably well positioned in life and know the difficulties I have had to date, and at the same time know that many of my sisters are in even more difficult positions. Maybe now some will understand my derogatory remarks a bit better. I Stand by What I Have Said.
I do not write platitudes on these boards. What I write comes from the heart. For those of you on the opposite side then myself, then I suppose by default we are enemies. While I don't enjoy making enemies, it is a fact of life when trying to bring about change.
One last thing before closing, 'Work is NOT Work'. I wonder how many who have made that remark would last in working in -25C (18F) temperatures for 7 hours per day and slip sliding thru a foot or so of snow or even better yet working 50,100 or 200 feet above the ground standing on nothing more then a frosty 1 3/4'' tube and relying on nothing more then a safety harness and life line to protect you from a sudden stop at ground level if you were to fall, not to mention that if one does fall rescue has a time window of 15 to 20 minutes to get you down before death is likely from having blood pool in your legs. This is a far cry from being in a sheltered environment that may or may not be heated and being able to sit down off and on during the course of the day.
I make reasonable wages due to a collective agreement. I do know that many of my sisters have neither a post-secondary education nor a trade and therefor their potential wage earnings are even lower. To throw that in their face with remarks such as well work 3 or 4 jobs is simply nothing short of flippant in my mind. Or is transexualism and the ability to transtion and reach some degree of peace with oneself now limited only to the upper echelon of society?
Byee,
Brina
Quote from: brina on December 02, 2006, 12:43:51 PM
.... I do know that many of my sisters have neither a post-secondary education nor a trade and therefor their potential wage earnings are even lower. To throw that in their face with remarks such as well work 3 or 4 jobs is simply nothing short of flippant in my mind. Or is transexualism and the ability to transtion and reach some degree of peace with oneself now limited only to the upper echelon of society?
Byee,
Brina
Hmmmm I guess this was directed at me... I didn't graduate from high school, I worked three jobs, and while those jobs may not be seen as work according to what was outlined in the previous post (-25C (18F) temperatures for 7 hours per day) etc. I feel that any job is worth while. I don't have a trade, I worked my butt off to get every penny I've ever had, I picked potatoes, and cleaned and fileted fish and worked in a copper mill. I really don't see where working in the extremes that were outlined makes that type work more important than anyone else's. Folks do what they are able to, I would never say that the work that I do is more important, or more significant than that done by others. An honest wage for an honest days work is all we can hope for. But I feel that we are digressing from the topic of what constitutes a post op, and I've made my feeling know on that issue.
Steph
My mention of the work I do WAS not intended to say that it is MORE IMPORTANT then any other type of work, but I am use to these types of statements being made now days. It was meant to illustrate the actual output of energy in a given situation during the course of a work shift and what energy may or may not be left over for other jobs at the end of that work shift. I had also hoped to convey that those working for minimum or near minimum wages would have to work 24 hours a day in many cases to achieve SRS within a reasonable frame work of time. And while not directed exactly at you Steph you were one of the intended audiences.
Byee,
Brina
Quote from: brina on December 02, 2006, 12:43:51 PM
I find it revolting that other T's would be of the opinion that I should not be allowed to do this...
Nobody has said that in this thread at all. In fact, I don't recall this thread being solely about you... but I guess now it is, which to me is an indication of this narcissistic thread's decline. You invited comments and hysterically raised the emotional temperature when others didn't agree with your definition and to me, the part about making enemies is really unnecessary because
it's not that important.
Quoteby the reasoning I have seen so far they are not post-op and therefor not truly female and to extend that should NOT be able to change their respective gender marker.
I don't think anyone actually said that. I think people should be able to change all their markers when they decide to present as their true gender on a permanent basis. It doesn't really matter if one is pre-Op or post-Op if you are what you are on the inside, right?
Why are you so upset, Brina? Talk to us, please, what's going on with you?
Why does it matter so much what somebody's idea of what defines pre-Op and post-Op is? It doesn't change you, you are you, after all, no matter what anybody says.
I don't know what's making you so defensive, but please, we are all here to help you out, not hinder you or ridicule you. :-*
Good night, ladies! I hope you are all doing better. :-*
Quote from: DawnL on December 01, 2006, 07:58:20 PM
Quote from: brina on December 01, 2006, 09:51:00 AM
For those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a
pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name
a few and it disgusts me. Oh screw it I'm REALLY REALLY Disgusted at the moment!
Rather than firing off an ad hominem attack against your ongoing and increasingly shrill posts--no doubt drawing
the ire of the moderators in the process--I instead am going to hit the IGNORE button and make you go away.
Dawn
Oh god I feel like such a ditz, I was wondering how to do that.
Posted on: December 02, 2006, 07:15:07 PM
Quote from: brina on December 01, 2006, 09:51:00 AM
For those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name a few and it disgusts me.
For the nincumpoop who mentioned working 3 and 4 jobs, I might point out that not everyone has a nice plushy office environment to work in.
Oh screw it I'm REALLY REALLY Disgusted at the moment!
Good bye
Brina
I wished somebody was still here, unfortunatley she is not longer with us. But I will quote somthing she used to say,"If you want SRS bad enough you WILL figure out a way to get it". A person who is truly transsexual will sacrifice everything and anything to get SRS. It's nobodies fault but the person themself if they cannot afford it and pissing and moaning about it and blaming others online is sad.
Post Op to me is having major surgery to change your gender, in MTF its vaginoplasty, in FTM I'd say it was top and hystorectomy. So I guess I am Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric and I disgust you. Wich is fine with me. Somebody that sounds like a whiny crybaby that wants to blame everybody for their problems and lack of money disgusts me as well. If I want something bad enough I will work 3 and 4 jobs, overtime or figure out a way to make more money. Until a person start working towards their goal, they are either making excuses or don't want it bad enough.
Oh this is a lovely post you ladies are not near potato mashers or vegetable peelers i hope hehe... (umm this is meant to be humor so i am understood.. ^-^)
Brina,
You remind me very much of someone i know very very well, someone i knew quite a few short years back. ME! I may be wrong but you seem soo pent up with frustration and anger and rightfully soo all of us are or were or still are!
I cannot blame anyone for my plight , save my creator-and maybe he did not even have a direct hand in this?
I have tried to harness my frustration too many times i pinpinted it at poorly defined targets and at some of the very people who were trying to help me or be my friend!
I'm playing up to the crowd here but the following is true..
these conversations get heated and a lot of people blow fuses or misinterpret stuff, but i think everyone is trying to mean well, to understand? to help?I wished there was something i could do? i asked in another post about you when i ended i asked why so much frustration being vented in here and what was going on? Is there soemthing else going on that is an underlying issue?I read through this and you seem very passionate to me i am passionate too, but i also (due to my poor typing-spelling mainly) reread my post before posting it to make sure its either funny or right or serious or whatever? are you actually rererading what you are typing? I dunno not being judgemental in the least just asking?
one of your posts about jobs..
Quotene last thing before closing, 'Work is NOT Work'. I wonder how many who have made that remark would last in working in -25C (18F) temperatures for 7 hours per day and slip sliding thru a foot or so of snow or even better yet working 50,100 or 200 feet above the ground standing on nothing more then a frosty 1 3/4'' tube and relying on nothing more then a safety harness and life line to protect you from a sudden stop at ground level if you were to fall, not to mention that if one does fall rescue has a time window of 15 to 20 minutes to get you down before death is likely from having blood pool in your legs.
sorry to offend but i do this-and many other death defying acts for a hobby. climbing and moutaineering is something i do for relaxation and sport?
I chose my career or did it chose me either way i do not see the relevance to the work thing i think most have had their shares of bad times and jobs, and to the ones with a silver spoon in their mouth? Well so be it? an old friend said the world needs ditch diggers too! It's not fair to hold anyone accountable for what they do for a living or what their $monetary$ keep is..
that has nothing to do with the discussion..I cannot afford a lot of things mind you i guess if i desired something bad enough i would find a way, have not a lot of us found that grim path when we attempted our suicides? So there's always a path...Brina you're a whole heckuva farther ahead of the game than a lot of transgenders...
Having said that i just do not understand why you seem soo upset?Can you talk to us and address that?
Hugs your way!
Ricki
LOL I really am having a hard time making sense of some of the latest posts. Firstly I CAN afford MY Vaginoplasty and likely with Suporn if I chose. I have assets that I could sell in order to raise the money to do so. SO NO I am not whining about my own ability to proceed with my 'OP' and as far as anything else goes my transition is moving along rather smoothly. In fact all in all it has gone relatively smoothly.
You know I was going to yet again re-iterate my early points of what my concerns are but I have had it. It seems to me that what I am writting is being read by elitist or anyone other then transexual. Have a good life but please don't enter mine!
Good bye,
Brina
The topic of this thread is called WHAT CONSTITUTES A POST OP?. Let's stay on topic please kitties. Thank you.
tinkerbell :icon_chick:
QuoteThe topic of this thread is called WHAT CONSTITUTES A POST OP
I think that may be where the problem started?
Well served.. I'm not in a great position to advise on this anyway.
will have fun viewing !
cheers
Ricki
I will try one last time to explain what it is I have tried to discern here.
1) The classice term of SRS would be indicative of anyone who has undergone 2 TWO operations within the same general time frame.
a) M->F would entail an orchiectormy and then vagianoplasty
b) F->M I think would entail hytorectomy and phalioplast
NOTE: When performed on Transexuals as transexual surgories then the orchiectomy or hystorectomy are the GENDER Changing operations as they are the operations that irreversably change the endocrine system of the individual concerned. The following plasties are in essence cosmetic in that they have no direct bearing on the physical body other then appearance! While I do agree that a mental change may occur in some individuals with having their bodies esthetically aligned as to how they see themselves and therefor there is an argument presentable about these operatons being solely cosmetic. They do not in essence modify the bodies hormonal systems.
Being that having ones gender changed in those locales where it is permissible to do so is reliant upon having a gender changing operation then it follows that one who has had either an orchiectomy or hystorectomy and has had those records changed is in the eyes of the law Post Operative in the strick sense of the term as well as medically. Being as people do not present themselves in the nude on an on going basis then appearance that is NOT appearant plays little role from a societal view.
Considering that orchiectomies and hystorectomies are considerably less expensive then Classic SRS then it would seem logical to think that more and more T's might op out for this initial proceedure in order to perhaps have their birthrecords changed and afford them the same rights as the gender that they identify with. This in turn would without doubt make their respective RLE/RLT a much easier task to perform and NOT set them up for failures or at least set backs due to un-warranted discrimination.
I simply can not explain this any simpler then this. I am talking solely about transexuals here and not about anyone indentifing as being a transgender. Perhaps the Post-Op label needs to be devided into 2 catagories to eliminate confusion ie Post1 for the gender change and Post2 for the plasties. Perhaps little post versus big POST is more palatable?
In any respect for those who are of the opinion that CLASSIC SRS is the ONLY SEX changing operation then I stand by my earlier convictions as to how I see you.
Brina
Quote from: brina on December 03, 2006, 09:54:16 AM
Being as people do not present themselves in the nude on an on going basis then appearance that is NOT appearant plays little role from a societal view.
True, and philosophically you make a good point. I even kinda agree in ways...
But I think
The Law is often just worried about keeping male genitals out of "women's places." Simple as that. That old fear that anyone with male genitals is a threat, a potential sexual predator, regardless of claims to being TS and all.
Edit: I changed my genital reference terms
Why ask the question "WHAT CONSTITUTES A POST OP?" if you dont want to hear anybodies opinion, idea, or thoughts and then shove what you think is right down the throats of those that did have the courtesy to reply and discuss your topic?
What are you arguing? Sex change, gender change, or Post Op?
Quote from: Kate on December 03, 2006, 10:03:03 AM
Quote from: brina on December 03, 2006, 09:54:16 AM
Being as people do not present themselves in the nude on an on going basis then appearance that is NOT appearant plays little role from a societal view.
True, and philosophically you make a good point. I even kinda agree in ways...
But I think The Law is often just worried about keeping penises out of "women's places." Simple as that. That old fear that anyone with a penis is a threat, a potential sexual predator, regardless of claims to being TS and all.
Thankfully in Canada and some jurisdictions in the US they are smart enough to realize that some one who has undergone this operation is anything BUT a sexual menace of any kind. The have also been gracious enough to allow us to police ourselves and show that we do in fact HAVE A SOCIAL consiousness by NOT putting ourselves or NATAL woman in such a potentially embarrasing situation.
Byee,
Brina
Posted on: 2006-12-03, 12:16:01
Quote from: Lori on December 03, 2006, 10:08:21 AM
Why ask the question "WHAT CONSTITUTES A POST OP?" if you dont want to hear anybodies opinion, idea, or thoughts and then shove what you think is right down the throats of those that did have the courtesy to reply and discuss your topic?
What are you arguing? Sex change, gender change, or Post Op?
Sex and Gender (biologically speaking) are for all intents and purposes synonimous(sp) and both refer directly to Post Op. If you fail to understand what I am attempting to get at then there is simply nothing more I can do to clarrify my position.
Brina
Quote from: Kiera on December 03, 2006, 10:53:46 AM
I'd wash some 'lil ladies' mouth out with soap . . .
Wait, wait.. what'd I do? Too graphic? Or you think that *I* feel this way?
I wasn't saying *I* felt this way, I'm quoting the crude way I imagine "The Law" thinks, and how they word it to themselves.
Eeek... worried... my apologies, I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone... :(
:( Kate :(
So, if having a operation that permanently makes you closer to female makes you post-op, then what about FFS. What if you got FFS, could you call yourself a post-op even though no genital modifications was done? I have heard that you can actually have gender markers changed just from that because it means you have taken surgical steps to becoming your chosen gender. Please chew on that for a while before saying any gender changing surgery makes you post-op.
Quote from: Kiera on December 03, 2006, 12:14:04 PM
It's either that or My Humor must be older than I think!!!
Hmm, must be the humor. I didn't get it either. Sorry. :-\
Melissa
I simply fail to under stand why it is so difficult to differentiate between a surgeory that is cosmetic and one that irreversably alters ones hormonal state. Before anyone freaks out SRS IF an orchie or hysto in performed with it is a gender/sex change operation;however, if either one have been performed previously then it is nothing more then a cosmetic proceedure. Well Sasha has told me I am simply beating my head against the wall and she is right.
Byee,
Brina
Well, if hormones are the only criterion, then hysto for FtM's and orchi for MtF's is post op. Realistically, the other surgeries are not "just cosmetic". An FtM having chest surgery is a tad different from someone having a facelift. An MtF having FFS can't be compared to lipo on the thighs.
What I am not getting from this entire thread is why we're trying to define Post Op. Post Op would mean you've had one operation, doesn't matter what it is. I think what you're trying to get at is the concept of "done". Why are we debating different stages and goals of transitioning? It's divisive and invites a hierarchy of transsexuals. A better discussion would be "do you feel done? What more would you do if you had the resources?"
my .02
Dennis
Again the concept of post deals with when one has undergone a surgeory to alter permanently their bodies and remove the birth gender SEX Hormone whether it be Estrogen/Progesterone or Testosterone and they then take the hormone of their respective identified gender. Surgeories dealing with appearance don't meet that criteria and therefor the cosmetic designation. While surgeories that affect appearance may be needed for passability as the desired gender, they do not alter the underlying birth gender. Its only when gender changing surgeory has been performed that someone might be able to have their birthrecords changed and then be finally protected under the human rights codes of thier respective jurisdictions ie Female or Male.
I think some of the backlash here has to deal with transgender issues. Should a crossdresser or ->-bleeped-<- be allowed to use the facilaties associated with their presentation. At one time I was inclined to think yes but have changed my opinion now to NO I think they should NOT be allowed. In short anyone identifing as thier birth gender has no business in using the facilaties of the opposite gender.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread the concept of post-op while not broken per se needs to be updated for todays experiences. The very idea of forcing a transexual who has undergone a gender changing surgeory to spend a year or two in RLE/RLT presenting as their identified gender and maintaining their birth gender marker is ludicrous at best.
What is Done, I suppose that depends on the individual and what fiscal resources they have available to them.
For myself that will entail vagianoplasy. For a F->M I would think after top surgeory and a hystorectomy, simply as phalioplasty is still somewhat in its infancy :( and not perfected any where near to the degree that vagianoplasty has been for M->F's.
Byee,
Brina
QuoteThe very idea of forcing a transexual who has undergone a gender changing surgeory to spend a year or two in RLE/RLT presenting as their identified gender and maintaining their birth gender marker is ludicrous at best.
I thought that you have to do the RLT before they let you get the surgery? Unless of course it's different where you live, I suppose.
Okay, so let me clarify what I thought this thread was about. I was under the impression that you were asking what we thought of when someone refers to themselves as a Post-Op Transexual. To me it has the connotation that everything is "done" at that point, but I certainly would never call a Pre-Op Transexual woman or man anything other than the gender they wish to be referred to, to the extent of my considering them to be a member of that gender. To me, the surgery really has nothing to do with my perception of gender. My fiancee is a pre-OP (really a pre-transitioning) Transexual woman who is usually dressed as a man, but even still use female pronouns at times when I'm speaking to her or about her.
Legally, my point of view is meaningless. Legally, anyone's opinion on this is meaningless unless that opinion actually changes the law. If I had it my way, I would allow people to change their records the very second that they make a commitment to living as their gender. No amount of surgeries or hormones is going to change someone's gender, it will only change the physical appearance. Likewise, if my ovaries are removed due to cystic growth, I would never consider myself less female because of it and I would hope that nobody else would, either.
QuoteIts only when gender changing surgeory has been performed that someone might be able to have their birthrecords changed and then be finally protected under the human rights codes of thier respective jurisdictions ie Female or Male.
If this is true, then why are we debating this? I completely disagree that one must has "gender changing surgery" in order to have their records switched. Having one's body altered to match the gender of the mind is completely understandable, but I don't think that it should be necessary for having the title of male or female. Then again, I would find it odd for a transexual to choose not to have their body altered if they can afford it. And my opinion matters how? It's what the law defines as a "gender altering" surgery that will legally allow for a birthrecord to be changed. What I or anyone else thinks about it won't change how it is, so what's the point?
While RLE/RLT is a pre-requisite for Classic SRS it not for either an orchiectomy nor hystorectomy. I do imagine though that a letter from a qualified Pychiatrist or Clinical Pychologist would be required. For myself I just happened to be living in my identified gender for over a year, before I got my letter for the orchiectomy and I required a second letter from my pychiatrist to proceed with setting up my Vagianoplasty. Again I am speaking about surgeories that are performed as 'Transexual Surgeories' and NOT due to other underlying conditions!
I doubt seriously if you would find to many if any transexuals either male/female what would say that they have not been significantly altered by hormones and I'm not talking about appearances here. Testosterone and Estrogen play a very real and significant part in how people percieve the world about them.
Byee,
Brina
As I've said before, I think an orchi is a very significant and functionally changing operation, but I still feel the label "post-op" is reserved for post-GRS. It's more like semi-post-op. ;)
Melissa
QuoteTestosterone and Estrogen play a very real and significant part in how people percieve the world about them.
You do have a point about that.
It just occurred to me that I may not be playing fair with you, Brina. I know about your condition, but you don't know about mine (everyone that's been here awhile probably does, so I apologize for my repetitiveness!) I do know something firsthand about the effects of hormones being that I have an androgen disorder called polycystic ovary syndrome.
You probably know that everybody has a certain amount of testosterone as well as estrogen naturally, right? Well, my ovaries produce too much testosterone and causes to ovaries to develop a cyst at the time of ovulation instead of releasing the egg. When the doctor told me this I cried for weeks because I felt that I was half a woman (not just because of the hormone thing but because of the chance I'd be infertile. I know that it was stupid thing to think)
I was put on hormonal birth control to prevent ovulation and the formation of cysts and also to give my estrogen level a boost to counteract the extra testosterone. Without the bc, I was losing hair from my head, growing hair where I didn't want it and had raging acne and a libido that matched! That was physically. I didn't notice anything mentally, though, until I had started bc. I've tried several kinds over the years, it can be a process to find the right one. Once I was given extra estrogen my hair stopped falling out, my acne cleared up, my weight changed (e.g. I "filled out"), within months. A few years after I noticed that I did not need to bleach my upper lip anymore and some of the unwanted hair had lightened and thinned as well. My libido crashed and burned.
Unfortunately, I noticed mental changes when given the extra estrogen. Mainly moodiness and bouts of depression and anxiety. As I mentioned my libido died, but I'm not sure if that's a mental change or a physical one because they are so interconnected. Because of this I've been swiched several times to find one that works the best with the least side effects.
There have been periods of time when I've gone completely off of it and noticed that my mood was better, or at least more stable, except that I was more antsy and aggressive. My libido returned (duh!) and of course the hair and acne began to reappear, as well as a slight loss of volume in the bust. At which point I promptly went back on the bc.
So, now you know my story. I don't know if depression counts as a perception of the world around me, but perhaps you could tell me if you've had a similar experience with this.
To my knowledge I have never had an androgen disorder. I did experience a brief period of hair loss shortly after having had my orchiectomy. I also went thru about 2 months of NonStop nausea and vommiting that in effect totally dibillitated me. There were 5 trips made to the ER for dehydration and therefor IV's. Duriing this time I went from 165 lbs to 135 lbs. The 4th trip finally resulted in my being admitted for a week, which after various tests,x-rays and ultrasound were performed returned inconclusive. A week after discharge and the 5th ER trip finally a woman doctor decided that I was showing signs of morning sickness and prescribed a drug that works on that part of the brain dealing with nausea and basically blocks it. The short of the thing is that they worked and I only in the last month and a half have stopped taking them with no overyly noticable effects. No one has been able to explain this as yet and being as it seems to have disapated then it is slipping into history.
As to the effects of hormones, yes they have been very significant with me anyhow. The loss of Testosterone has 1) way diminished my capacity for pain, 2) some might say crashed my labido (men likely) but more like put it into a comfort zone, 3)allowed for a much more comfortable life ie way less agitation,anger etc.
Estrogen has 1) mellowed my outlook on life in a big way, 2) anxiety is somewhat increased much more so at some times then others. 3) changed the way I feel (not physically) when orgasming, 4) in general I feel like me and quite comfortable with myself.
I suppose there have been other changes brought about by the changes in both hormones but are so subtle that I probably don't pick up on them conciously. Oh Yeah my emotions are way less underwraps the what they were ever before. I can get misty eyed in a split second and on several occassions though I'd have to pull off to the side of the road and have a good cry and about what I've really never been totally sure.
When I was at the peak of my illness I did notice that after having stopped taking any of my estrogen or progesterone that after about 2 weeks I felt as though my mind/emotions were physically seperated from my body. I did not like it much but could not keep anything down not even water it was a YUKKY time. Anyhow that might have been a blessing as now I know what to expect when I have to stop the mones 2 weeks ahead of my Thailand visit, although flying halfway around the world under that condition Does Not Excite me.
Has any of this answered any of your original question? I have now lost track of what you were asking me in the first place.
I think I better post this now as I have begun thinking about something else that is making me sad and I do not want to be sad right now.
Byee,
Brina
QuoteModerator note: The following link contains graphic material.
what? This (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRS.html) is post op.
*giggles* I remember this thread very well. Boy! there are few other ones out there, "what is full-time?", "what is part-time?", "what is pre-op?" ::)
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on March 29, 2007, 11:37:10 AM
*giggles* I remember this thread very well. Boy! there are few other ones out there, "what is full-time?", "what is part-time?", "what is pre-op?" ::)
tink :icon_chick:
What IS overthinking???
Hmmm... ponder... ;)
Kate
A discussion I had with my T several weeks ago included this topic, what she said is that it boils down to two things, one did you have a surgery that has altered your genitals and second can you find a doctor that would agree with your description of post op pertaining to GID. In my case or my opinion an orchi and the inability to have an erection, having a vagina does not mean or a requirement to be female just ask any FtoM.
True, a vagina does not make anyone female, but it does make us post-SRS. As I previously stated, I don't support any notion that an orchiectomy is any kind of sex/gender reassignment surgery. Or perhaps it is and all those impotent men who have had orchiectomies due to medical reasons are now female/post-op TS's/???. I still have to see a doctor in this country who will validate an orchiectomy as SRS.
tink :icon_chick:
After having open heart surgery you are post op. Money will dictate a doctors response to a request, just look at all the folks on disability.
So...I clicked on Yvonne's link (thank you, by the way)...yeah...I clicked on that link in the middle of the computer lab at school, I am three different shades of red right now! The person next prolly thinks I'm looking at hardcore pron...yes, person next to me...I'm talking about you! >:D
Actually, I've never seen one of those before (neovaginas, that is, I've seen more vaginas than I'd like to admit and not in that good fun way, either!) then again, I don't think I would know the difference if I got my head stuck in it!
Do they all look that good? I think that's amazing!
Quote from: angelsgirl on March 29, 2007, 01:11:46 PM
Do they all look that good? I think that's amazing!
Of course you couldn't tell the difference. Not even a gyno can... are you back to your normal color? >:D LOL
tink :icon_chick:
I think I'm down to only one shade of red, now, thanks! LOL
Wow, that's really amazing, though, I've got to get Jocelyn more motivated! >:D
why do some people twist their words to their own benefit? it's truly upsetting and ignorant. postop means exactly what it implies, post-operative and since it's [obvious] that we're talking about mtf grs here [and not heart conditions], the term postop refers to having a [vagina] instead of male genitals. castrations and penectomies arent considered any type of gender reassignment because they're mere modifications. grs is a conversion (externally and internally). now, some will still argue that grs is a modification, claiming that a postop woman has no uterus or ovaries. well neither does a woman who's had a hysterectomy, so this pov is also stupid. period.
I am not twisting my words, I am sorry you are upset, and the only thing that is ignorant is to believe that there is only one description or definition of post op, I was merely pointing out two of many real life scenario's. One post op is just that you have a surgery now you are post op, and secondly Dr. shopping is alive and well in the US so if you shop enough a Dr. will agree with you that an orhci or penectomy could also be considered GRS.
Our opinions differ mine appears to be broader than others. If anyone wanted to keep the definition in the box why ask or respond for that matter, bless your heart.
I think that we are all aware about what we are taking about in this forum when we are talking about the term "post op", we are talking about SRS/GRS and no other type of surgery. I would have thought that it was obvious.
Lets keep the discussion on topic (and civil) as it pertains to the question asked and that is "What constitutes a Post Op". And for clarification we are talking about post op GRS/SRS.
Steph
Quote from: Katia on March 31, 2007, 01:29:05 PM
why do some people twist their words to their own benefit? it's truly upsetting and ignorant. postop means exactly what it implies, post-operative and since it's [obvious] that we're talking about mtf grs here [and not heart conditions], the term postop refers to having a [vagina] instead of male genitals. castrations and penectomies arent considered any type of gender reassignment because they're mere modifications. grs is a conversion (externally and internally). now, some will still argue that grs is a modification, claiming that a postop woman has no uterus or ovaries. well neither does a woman who's had a hysterectomy, so this pov is also stupid. period.
lol, I like you.
I dont think these are silly questions. This is how the knowledge is built up. Imagination is the trigger for the development of human civilization. And yeah, it can get annoying; I try to be patient if theyre not blatantly trying to be offensive, but still. Post-op constitutes the creation of the neo-vagina in a male to female transsexual.
Quote from: Steph on March 31, 2007, 05:00:02 PM
I think that we are all aware about what we are taking about in this forum when we are talking about the term "post op", we are talking about SRS/GRS and no other type of surgery. I would have thought that it was obvious.
I'd have thought the same, yet some people apparently thought we were discussing the term postop as it pertains to open-heart surgery. ::)
Quote from: Yvonne on March 31, 2007, 08:29:12 PM
Quote from: Katia on March 31, 2007, 01:29:05 PM
why do some people twist their words to their own benefit? it's truly upsetting and ignorant. postop means exactly what it implies, post-operative and since it's [obvious] that we're talking about mtf grs here [and not heart conditions], the term postop refers to having a [vagina] instead of male genitals. castrations and penectomies arent considered any type of gender reassignment because they're mere modifications. grs is a conversion (externally and internally). now, some will still argue that grs is a modification, claiming that a postop woman has no uterus or ovaries. well neither does a woman who's had a hysterectomy, so this pov is also stupid. period.
lol, I like you.
im glad you find me amusing. sometimes i don't know if people are just [slow] or [pretend to be]. again, the mind is a powerful thing. you can believe yourself to be cleopatra queen of the nile, you can think that your penis is a vagina, or you can think that your castration makes you postop, yet the truth is that those are [mere delusions].
Quote from: Katia on April 02, 2007, 02:28:00 AM
...
im glad you find me amusing. sometimes i don't know if people are just [slow] or [pretend to be]. again, the mind is a powerful thing. you can believe yourself to be cleopatra queen of the nile, you can think that your penis is a vagina, or you can think that your castration makes you postop, yet the truth is that those are [mere delusions].
Truth? Who's truth? I notice all the post ops here are making dogmatic statements of opinion as if it were a fact. Post-op means after operation. When a person has completed all the operations they intend to have, they are post-op. Now you can argue all day long about whether or not anyone is a woman or not.
And saying that it's irrellevant that those with neo-vagina's don't have wombs or overies, because women get hysterectomies, does not make it a less valid arguement, just because you think so. Guess what, some women have thier clitoris's cut off and thier vagina sewn shut. About 100,000,000 at last count. Under your standards, one need not have a vagina or clitoris, since millions of women don't.
Come down off that high horse. Those of you who are lucky enough to possess neo-vaginas are no more women than any other transsexual. It totally cracks me up. Let's see some literature on this? How about a few peer reviewed studies that support this point of view.
You know, this place is getting pretty snobish. It seems that there is only room for those who have neo-vaginas. If anyone does not fit into a certain stereotype they are labled "tranvestites" by the neo-vagina group. It's sad, as soon as the ability to smite someone vanishes, peoples true colors come out.
It really does not feel friendly here anymore. It feels like a club, where I am not in with the popular crowd.
Love always,
Elizabeth
I am glad to see that I am not the only one with these opinions :)
Although I am not as elegant in explaining myself as others might be. Its the punker chick in me.
It kinda reminds me of my BF corporate world if your not in line with the popular ways then you are a rebel and outcast and shouldn't have any opinion, [lets keep it on track] what is the track? if the the only answer is "with a vagina" then why ask the question?
Quote from: Elizabeth on April 02, 2007, 03:50:29 AM
It seems that there is only room for those who have neo-vaginas. If anyone does not fit into a certain stereotype they are labled "tranvestites" by the neo-vagina group.
I'm post-op by the commonly-held notion of what that means... and I don't personally hold with that view. I think people should transition to the point where they feel comfortable and where it's pragmatic for them.
However, if people want to appropriate the language and terms of certain procedures and repurpose them to fit their own reality, then, to me, it's a slippery form of relativism that is subjective at heart and I think it's important to bear that in mind.
Elizabeth, you've always been a woman to me. I was living as a woman 24/7 many years before surgery. That didn't make me less of an individual and it would be the sheerest of hypocrisy to deny that same dignity to others.
you know what? people ask for proof, scientific data, hard evidence, studies, yet when that information is [presented] to them in the form of (hbsoc, dsm, criteria for diagnosis of transexualism, etc), the same people cry and whine that such information is inaccurate or flawed. it's a no-win situation and very typical of someone who lives in a fantasy world. btw; im [not] post-op yet, but i will be. furthermore, i dont back up any opinion that a castrated person is a postop transexual or that a ->-bleeped-<- [crossdresser] should have the same rights as a preop or postop ts.
OK then what would your definition of a person MtoF on HRT who presents [very well I might add] and wishes to be female and has been surgically castrated.
Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 01:16:24 PM
OK then what would your definition of a person MtoF on HRT who presents [very well I might add] and wishes to be female and has been surgically castrated.
a preop transexual.
Now remember I said Surgically castrated. Why in your opinion wouldn't that be post-op Transsexual, possibly because thats not the traditional or generally accepted definition?
Quote from: Katia on April 02, 2007, 01:06:48 PM
you know what? people ask for proof, scientific data, hard evidence, studies, yet when that information is [presented] to them in the form of (hbsoc, dsm, criteria for diagnosis of transexualism, etc), the same people cry and whine that such information is inaccurate or flawed. it's a no-win situation and very typical of someone who lives in a fantasy world. btw; im [not] post-op yet, but i will be. furthermore, i dont back up any opinion that a castrated person is a postop transexual or that a ->-bleeped-<- [crossdresser] should have the same rights as a preop or postop ts.
Just back up what you say. I have seen you spew a lot of opinions, but I have not seen the peer reviewed studies to prove it. DSM is dead, everyone knows that GID will not appear in DSM-V, it barely made it into DSM-IV after it was heavily watered down. But even so, DSM is a political document. It's about votes on a committee. It has nothing to do with science or understanding Transsexualism. None of these people making the decisions know what it feels like to feel one has the wrong body.
And what makes you think you have any rights that anyone else is not entitled to? Good grief, do you really beleive that crap? You are entitled to consideration that others are not? Because why? Because you don't think they are transsexual? Maybe they don't think you are transsexual. How do we know that you are not really just a ->-bleeped-<- tricking the system and you attack others who you think are like you, as your cover? You see, we only have your word to know you are what you say you are.
Thinking you have some special dignity that others don't have because you have decided that you are a "true transsexual" and others are not, is beyond hypocracy. There is no one qualified to say who is and who is not a transsexual, other than what someone says to be true of themselves. What that means is subjective.
Look at Micheal Jackson's face. Now he did not need any letters to do that to himself. There is no way he does not regret that. Yet, he needed no letters, no therapy, no permission slips. This nonsense about SOC is complete bull->-bleeped-<-. It's subjective. Who gets the letter and who does not is completely subjective. All by people who don't have a clue what it's like. With rules written by people who are more interested in making a name for themselves than to really try to understand what is going on.
I will do what I have to do, but I am not foolish enough to beleive the people writing these rules understand who is and who is not afflicted with GID. If they did, we would not be having this pleasant conversation.
Love always,
Elizabeth
Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 01:26:56 PM
Now remember I said Surgically castrated. Why in your opinion wouldn't that be post-op Transsexual, possibly because thats not the traditional or generally accepted definition?
are circumcised male babies postop transexuals? are men who've had their testicles removed due to testicular cancer postop transexuals? are psychotic men who mutilate their genitals postop transexuals? what makes a mtf postoperative? the construction of a vagina. i've said everything i needed to say on this topic btw.
Let's back this train up a little bit, if you don't mind, I think we're skirting something here. Okay, so why is it so important that a castrated person be considered a post-op transexual? Or anyone for that matter? I understand having the SRS is of great significance to an individual, but aside from that where is the importance of others considering you post-op? Genuine curiousity, not sarcasm, please don't yell at me, but I really would like to know the answers to these questions.
Quote from: Katia on April 02, 2007, 01:33:58 PM
Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 01:26:56 PM
Now remember I said Surgically castrated. Why in your opinion wouldn't that be post-op Transsexual, possibly because thats not the traditional or generally accepted definition?
are circumcised male babies postop transexuals? are men who've had their testicles removed due to testicular cancer postop transexuals? are psychotic men who mutilate their genitals postop transexuals? what makes a mtf postoperative? the construction of a vagina. i've said everything i needed to say on this topic btw.
The problem with your scenarios is that non of the men you refer to wish to present female. "what makes a mtf postoperative? the construction of a vagina". Shouldn't that include IMHHO? all of mine are In My Humble Honest Opinion, I am not trying to cram a definition or stereo type anybody here. Reminds me of my way or the highway.
Quote from: angelsgirl on April 02, 2007, 01:41:03 PMwhere is the importance of others considering you post-op?
Unless random genital inspection has become commonplace without my knowledge I have no idea, personally I don't give a rats. post op meanst post as in after and op as in operation it's inspecific but in the context we use it here and frankly anywhere else in the trans world it reffers to full SRS, anything else is post-orchie or post-BA or whatever, extending post op to any old surgical intervention would just get confusing. If someone wants to replace post-op with post-GRS then that's fine with me just extending it as an umbrella is stupid just to give some insecure people a little more validation which should come from within.
Quote from: angelsgirl on April 02, 2007, 01:41:03 PM
Let's back this train up a little bit, if you don't mind, I think we're skirting something here. Okay, so why is it so important that a castrated person be considered a post-op transexual? Or anyone for that matter? I understand having the SRS is of great significance to an individual, but aside from that where is the importance of others considering you post-op? Genuine curiousity, not sarcasm, please don't yell at me, but I really would like to know the answers to these questions.
Actually it's not that important, I have never really been one to care what others think of me. Simply put the question was raised and several have offered there opinions and others have pored concrete and set the definition in stone and expect us to stand there in the concrete while it dries.
I am a transsexual woman [meaning I have been diagnosed by both a therapist and an MD that I have GID and I am taking medications to help me i.e. HRT], I present and live full time as a woman, I have had genital surgery [I have been surgically castrated] IMHHO I am a post-op Transexual although I don't have a neo-vagina, as the cement dries you can't be post-op.
Quote from: Mawd on April 02, 2007, 01:47:57 PM
Quote from: angelsgirl on April 02, 2007, 01:41:03 PMwhere is the importance of others considering you post-op?
Unless random genital inspection has become commonplace without my knowledge I have no idea, personally I don't give a rats. post op meanst post as in after and op as in operation it's inspecific but in the context we use it here and frankly anywhere else in the trans world it reffers to full SRS, anything else is post-orchie or post-BA or whatever, extending post op to any old surgical intervention would just get confusing. If someone wants to replace post-op with post-GRS then that's fine with me just extending it as an umbrella is stupid just to give some insecure people a little more validation which should come from within.
I like post-orchi that fits :) I also like post-GRS. what I like the most is your not trying to cram something down our throats :)
Quote from: angelsgirl on April 02, 2007, 01:41:03 PM
Okay, so why is it so important that a castrated person be considered a post-op transexual?
Possibly people want to get the benefits from the government without having the operation. Possibly they want to be known as post-op for insecurity reasons. Inside themselves, they know post-op means completion and people get frustrated for not being complete themselves and want to lie to others saying they are post-op. post-op transsexual is a transwoman who has a vagina. It's very difficult to be post-op because the operation is very painful and rigorous follow up care. So nobody who isn't post-op can understand.
I would like to know one thing who said a "post-op transsexual is a transwoman who has a vagina?" that is other than the folks here at the Susan's? Anybody with any real authority.
insecurity issues more likely. ;D
Quote from: Yvonne on April 02, 2007, 02:14:26 PM
insecurity issues more likely. ;D
mmmmmm nope sorry try again. thats just my opinion..............
Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 02:10:16 PM
I would like to know one thing who said a "post-op transsexual is a transwoman who has a vagina?" that is other than the folks here at the Susan's? Anybody with any real authority.
Yeah, me. Wha'cha gonna do about it? ;)
Seriously, though. C'mon... these are just words. I genuinely don't know why some people who've had orchis are so keen to use that label; it's not something I personally would have considered if I had had an orchiectomy, which I haven't. Doesn't make you any less of a person to me at all... especially with those legs. ;)
However, post-op is usually shorthand for GRS. You know it, we all know it... you can embrace all sorts of meaning in order to justify a stance, but when we're having a conversation between ourselves and to the outside world, you're dealing with a set of assumptions, not facts. And those assumptions are what makes understanding and communication possible. So if someone says to me that they're post-op, I'm not inclined to dwell on the nuances of what that actually
means and will take those words on face value.
So OK, you're post-op to some but not others. Does it genuinely matter?
Quote from: Stormy Weather on April 02, 2007, 02:34:04 PM
Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 02:10:16 PM
I would like to know one thing who said a "post-op transsexual is a transwoman who has a vagina?" that is other than the folks here at the Susan's? Anybody with any real authority.
Yeah, me. Wha'cha gonna do about it? ;)
Seriously, though. C'mon... these are just words. I genuinely don't know why some people who've had orchis are so keen to use that label; it's not something I personally would have considered if I had had an orchiectomy, which I haven't. Doesn't make you any less of a person to me at all... especially with those legs. ;)
However, post-op is usually shorthand for GRS. You know it, we all know it... you can embrace all sorts of meaning in order to justify a stance, but when we're having a conversation between ourselves and to the outside world, you're dealing with a set of assumptions, not facts. And those assumptions are what makes understanding and communication possible. So if someone says to me that they're post-op, I'm not inclined to dwell on the nuances of what that actually means and will take those words on face value.
So OK, you're post-op to some but not others. Does it genuinely matter?
Thank you lots of moisturizer :)
No it doesn't thats been my point all along, I will not argue the point about post-op being short hand for GRS in fact I agree with that 100%. I will argue that GRS is the ONLY way to be post-op.
My issues has been others here telling me one I am not post-op because you don't have a vagina WELL EXCUSE THE FIRE OUTA ME I DON'T FIT IN YOUR MOLD. And two being insecure, who the F*** do you thing you are telling me I'm insecure, other than those itty bitty issues I'm cool.
Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 02:50:11 PM
I will not argue the point about post-op being short hand for GRS in fact I agree with that 100%. I will argue that GRS is the ONLY way to be post-op.
ive been wasting my breath for nothing then. ;) you should've said it earlier.
i have to agree about those legs though.
Quote from: Katia on April 02, 2007, 02:54:36 PM
Quote from: ssindysmith on April 02, 2007, 02:50:11 PM
I will not argue the point about post-op being short hand for GRS in fact I agree with that 100%. I will argue that GRS is the ONLY way to be post-op.
ive been wasting my breath for nothing then. ;) you should've said it earlier.
i have to agree about those legs though.
AAhhhh ***hugs***
Thank you my BF really likes em also my best feature :)
Quote from: Julie Marie on November 30, 2006, 06:13:21 AM
In my world if you can walk into a gender appropriate locker room, that is appropriate to the gender you identify with, and take off all your clothes and not shock anyone with what's between your legs, then you're post op.
When we are born they look between our legs to determine gender. That's the way this society does things. I know how I feel inside but they won't accept that as proof of gender. If you're a transitioning TS and can pass the between the legs test then you're post op. That's just me. I don't want to have to do any explaining as to why I'm female if I still have a penis between my legs.
Julie
Indeed.
With just a slight aesthetic modification of the present anatomical configuration [a simple 'tensioning' of the tissue], that would be no problem for me.
You will forgive the underlying tone of great anger here.
Indeed, what does constitute post-op and am I any less the woman for not fitting an artificial and specious paradigm that is rigidly and doggedly adhered to by 'society' and certain others - ??
Or shall we play 'law of the excluded middle' games here based solely on phenotype, in order to obviate the 'tedious' task of ratiocination - ??
Yes indeed, this could accurately be categorized as a 'vent' - for the most part. >:(
Quote from: Hidrix on April 28, 2007, 04:03:46 AM
for a dude, post of is have a penis or the other operation metodoispalasty (?)
for a girl. post of is have a vagina
I'm a little less 'keyed up' today, Chris.
I do have to admit that much of my angst here is derived from my...issues concerning altering the 'gender marker' on my official documentation and I have to admit that the emotion surrounding this is biasing my perspective very heavily.
Tink, nor anyone else here is maintaining that fatuous conceptualization that gender identity is necessarily and solely a function of genitalia, that the Feds and so many others are doggedly adhering to.
You will find no advocacy for the present [mis]Administration here. >:( >:(
I badly want the vaginoplasty; I cannot be complete without it. Make no mistake here.
Having said this however, I have major problems with condition where I am not 'officially' categorized as female simply due to my present genital configuration.
Tink stated what SHE considers post-op; I myself do not think much of that definition and perceive it as flawed, but she was not so audacious as to insist that one is not female if they do not fit her perception of what constitutes post-op, nor would I expect her to.
concerning ts women, post-op is just a phrase describing you have had "the surgery", or GRS. that would indicate a vaginoplasty i.e. no testicles or scrotum and no penis. with most ts men, the phrase most often describes "top surgery" or removal of the breasts, with any bottom surgery referred to as extra "bottom" surgery. phalloplasties are rare, extremely expensive and painful, consist of multiple stage procedures, and are unfortunately questionable in patient satisfaction. (although i did meet a man who was happy with dr. brassards results)
post-op or pre-op or non-op is not who you are. we are all people, men and women, and we are taking care of a problem as best we can. we all deserve the rights and dignity afforded to any member of society. in spite of our rather extra ordinary lives, almost all of the ts people i have ever met were very ordinary men and women, and certainly worthy of the courtesy extended to other citizens.
IMHO, we should always identify with those in earlier stages of transition. their rights are our rights. the children on 20/20 last night broke my heart... and they were much braver than i was. would i tell them that they are not girls yet because they haven't had the surgery? i would rather cut off my tongue. we need to show compassion and understanding for each other, if we are going to demand it from society at large. hugs...
The topic of this thread is titled
What constitutes post-op? as it pertains to SRS/GRS (sex reassignment surgery or gender reassignment surgery). It is not about issues of what makes you a woman, female, whole or what have you. Let's stay on topic, please! Thank you.
Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 28, 2007, 10:53:45 AM
Tink, nor anyone else here is maintaining that fatuous conceptualization that gender identity is necessarily and solely a function of genitalia, that the Feds and so many others are doggedly adhering to.
As it pertains to this topic, yes you are correct, I am.
Again, I don't support any notion that a post-op transsexual does not have functional female genitalia, meaning a vaginal cavity, along with labia, a repositioned urethra and a clitoris. That is what constitutes
POST-OP on my book (and the title of this thread) and it is not related to your gender identity, feelings of being female, or whatever else you believe yourself to be.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Tink on April 28, 2007, 10:33:26 PM
The topic of this thread is titled What constitutes post-op? as it pertains to SRS/GRS (sex reassignment surgery or gender reassignment surgery). It is not about issues of what makes you a woman, female, whole or what have you. Let's stay on topic, please! Thank you.
Quote from: rhonda13000 on April 28, 2007, 10:53:45 AM
Tink, nor anyone else here is maintaining that fatuous conceptualization that gender identity is necessarily and solely a function of genitalia, that the Feds and so many others are doggedly adhering to.
As it pertains to this topic, yes you are correct, I am. Again, I don't support any notion that a post-op transsexual does not have functional female genitalia, meaning a vaginal cavity, along with labia, a repositioned urethra and a clitoris. That is what constitutes POST-OP on my book (and the title of this thread) and it is not related to your gender identity, feelings of being female, or whatever else you believe yourself to be.
tink :icon_chick:
[annoyed...]
My immediate reaction to this was...that the tone was inordinate.
And I think that I will defer on...additional expression....
Thank God for the changes induced by both transition and HRT.
I think that it is time for this tired old girl to go to bed. :)
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) again? should i translate my following quote in every language?
Quote from: Katia on March 31, 2007, 01:29:05 PM
postop means exactly what it implies, post-operative and since it's [obvious] that we're talking about mtf grs here [and not heart conditions], the term postop refers to having a [vagina] instead of male genitals. castrations and penectomies arent considered any type of gender reassignment because they're mere modifications. grs is a conversion (externally and internally). now, some will still argue that grs is a modification, claiming that a postop woman has no uterus or ovaries. well neither does a woman who's had a hysterectomy, so this pov is also stupid. period.
period.
Quote from: Katia on April 29, 2007, 02:29:57 AM
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) again? should i translate my following quote in every language?
Quote from: Katia on March 31, 2007, 01:29:05 PM
postop means exactly what it implies, post-operative and since it's [obvious] that we're talking about mtf grs here [and not heart conditions], the term postop refers to having a [vagina] instead of male genitals. castrations and penectomies arent considered any type of gender reassignment because they're mere modifications. grs is a conversion (externally and internally). now, some will still argue that grs is a modification, claiming that a postop woman has no uterus or ovaries. well neither does a woman who's had a hysterectomy, so this pov is also stupid. period.
period.
[Listening to E. Power Biggs - 'Bach: Great Organ Favorites']
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Oh, you are a real vixen, aren't you Katia???
I LOVE it!!! :D ;D :) It would be so delightful to meet you someday, girl!! Perhaps..... :)
But I awoke this morning feeling reasonably evil [mischievous actually >:D] and I thought of Tink's definition and I considered hers in the context of my own present anatomical configuration and it had me wondering [seriously, I'm in a wonderful mood right now ;D]....
--I was freaking out [a little. the penectomy vastly reduced or 'de-compressed the TS induced pressure which had become intolerable for me; what could I do?], over the possibility where GRS had been effectively precluded by this procedure.
I contacted one prominent surgeon in Thailand, presenting my case to him in clinical detail. He basically said that he would not recommend colon-section or even standard vaginoplasty [This blew my mind; is not penile inversion generally considered standard GRS - and I had just told him that a radical penectomy had been executed by Henry Ford Urology???? ::)] for me.
I got the definite sense that linguistic differences would pose a significant problem in gaining the necessary information from foreign surgeons. UNREAL.
So I contacted Dr. Marci Bowers a while back posing the same scenario to her, again in clinical detail [possessing a good command of medical terminology has proven to be very useful, over my transition. How many times I wonder, was I asked,
"Are you a doctor?" or
"Do you have medical training?"
"No, I'm only an aircraft electrician."]
[feeling that old, familiar fire] It has been one hell of a journey.... >:( :'(
But Dr. Bowers' response to my query?"We can help you."But here is an interesting situation, relative to Tink's definition: as it turns out, there are two possible avenues available to me, by which to acquire the needed surgery but the glans tissue, which is commonly utilized to create clitoral tissue, no longer exists.
As it turns out, that deficit will certainly pose no problem in achieving orgasms [that was a massive relief by the way - in more ways than one >:D] but it does leave me with no clitoris.
So please tell me: does the absence of a functional clitoris in this future scenario categorize me as 'pre-op' [to some]?
I believe that I will stop here, as I feel my mood shifting in a somewhat negative vector.... >:(
Great topic. I have only read a few pages, but I shall post my views.
I feel that getting an orchiectomy is post op. The testicles are what is responsible for subataining the male gender. Even when a men loses them they are most likely given testosterone supplements. If they can't have supplements for reason x, they are still men in between the ears.
I think people get blurred because they think the penis is the male sex organ. It's just a piece of skin that fills up with blood and that's all.
Vaginoplasty I think is for cosmetic reasons. The main reason for getting this done is to have a visual representation of the female sex organ. It is still not the female sex organ. It does not function like the female sex organ. Yes, it does also change how you can physically have sex. Unfortunately, this is something we will all have to deal with in our lives until that wonderful day when science will let us have periods. Even then it would not make me a woman only a way to reproduce.
Sex as a noun is all in the brain and hormones in our body. Sometimes these do not match hence why we exist. Having sex, as a verb is physical and nothing more then a way to have sex with a part that was produced from testosterone. In my mind, getting a vagina would be for purely cosmetic reasons and having sex. It would not dictate what sex I am. Once my testicals are gone and I have only estrogen flowing threw my body, I would call myself female and post op.
I tend to think everyone that opposes this idea are the ones that believe "they" need to get a vaginoplasty to be female. Look in the mirror girl you have been female since the day you were in your mother's womb as an XX with gonads. It was that nasty moment when testosterone came and introduced your defect. For an FtM it was that waiting around when testosterone came a little to late or not at all.
Sex is something that we having been changing since the day we existed. To have it based on
a cosmetic surgery is really a single minded view. Look around you, this view is evolving hence the creation of transgenderizm.
~Aurora
And again, if you are happy having an orchiectomy and believing yourself to be post-op, that should be the only thing that matters; however, do not expect others to accept your definition of post-op, including the Federal Government, State officials, medical doctors and what have you.
tink :icon_chick:
Quote from: Yvonne on March 29, 2007, 10:21:39 AM
QuoteModerator note: The following link contains graphic material.
what? This (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRS.html) is post op.
The specialists in gender identity have gone beyond reality to try to categorize who is a transsexual and who isn't, who suffers from gender dysphoria and who doesn't. There are many persons who are clearly not transsexual (->-bleeped-<-s and crossdressers) but they have taken over the definition of transsexual the same way they change silky lingerie or choose a new wig. Transsexuality is not a game, it has nothing to do with being dressed in soft, ballerina dresses. Transsexuality is a serious medical ailment and very simple to understand. Same thing post-op, it doesn't mean to remove a single testicle, half of a penis, both testicles, or a quarter of a willie! Post-op in a MTF transsexuals refers to the lack of male genitals (testicles, penis, internal reproductive organs) and the creation of the female vagina as it appears in the link I have given you here. I'm just bloody tired of people trying to conveniently modify the definitions to their advantage. If you want to be post-op, be post-op, go to a doctor and have a vagina made, and then say you're post-op. Until then, you're just fantasizing!
The only place that really needs to accept my definition of post-op is the place where I was born. If I can get an orchiectomy and be declared female were I was born by definition, the rest of the world would have to honor that definition. I could move the US and be declared female in any state. All it takes is my Birth Certificate and my passport. Therefore, to the rest of the world, what really constitutes a post op is where you were born. That is fact in most countries in the world.
This is an open discussion within our community, so it is based on what we as individuals think it should be based on. Not what is necessarily fact. I feel it should be based on what an individual thinks of themselves and how they would live day to day. I still stand by what I said about Vaginoplasty being for cosmetic reasons mostly. If you believe Vaginoplasty should constitute what is Post op, tell me why you feel this way. Show my your reasoning. I am interested in all your opinions about my opinions. That is why I had posted them in the first place.
~Aurora
The day Im post-op. I want to see a vagina when I look at my crotch. I dont want to see one testicle or parts of a penis or something that reminds me that I ever had a penis. I want to be anatomically female, I dont want half of a vagina, or half of a penis. I want a vagina.
I would give anything to be anatomically female, but that was not possible the day our X's split into Y. If a vagina is all you need I am honestly happy for you. If your penis gives you sorrow everyday then yeah it should probably go, and will be a very happy day for you I'm sure.
The next few paragraphs are feelings I have never expressed to anyone. These feelings make me cry a little....
To honestly have everything I want. I would love to have a period. To be able to feel my body is fertile. To carry a child for eight months and then produce a miracle. I will never have these things, and deal with it like any other women does. I feel a little guilty though. Unlike the rest of these poor women, I do have a daughter. I started my transition soon after she was conceived. I was so jealous of my ex during her pregnancy. It made me very sad that she could feel things I would never feel. Someday I will tell my daughter that I would have gladly given my life to carry her to term. To make the ultimate self sacrifice a mother does in case she does not live and produce another life.
I may be female inside and out, but I will always be a little broken. I will always be a little jealous. I will always feel a little guilty. Having a vaginoplasty will never fix me. It would never give me want I truly desire. What do you do when you resent your penis and a broken vagina? No matter what part I have, I would hate them both. It is not all depressing though. This is when I knew for sure my mind is female. I was happy at least I was in transition. I was learning to love myself with what I was given. I have learned to be female even with a penis. That is what makes me a strong female.
To know I am never going to have fully functional female anatomy since that day I was born and to accept that fact. Something we all share as transsexual people in someway. It is that simple, to be born the wrong sex. Even if we could have the perfect body we all wanted, we would still be transsexual. It would be soo much easier to deal with for sure, but we are still born the wrong sex. It is the only commonality we truly have. If we were born the right sex, we would not be transgendered. There is no variance in our condition, only how we deal with it. If sex has variance and no one was born the wrong sex, we could still have transgendered people, but no transsexuals. It just makes so much sense to me.
It thinks it is perfectly ok if you need to change your penis into a vagina. If it makes your happy, I am happy for you. I just do not care that much about my penis. My testicals are different. They have to go. Not only for legally changing my sex, they are responsible for making my life hell. They do have there own irony, without them I would never have been a mother. I am a transsexual woman lesbian mother with a penis that is about to have her testicals removed to become legally post op female. So many labels, my life could make a good satire. I only use them is this community. The rest of the world just knows me as a simple sexy female. Only a select few know the whole truth about me, and you people I guess. humor me please...I just spent an hour crying over things that I will never get to feel...
Not to say I would never get a vaginoplasty. There is one reason I would get it done. If my lesbian wife wanted it that bad. I would honestly do it for her. That is a whole other discussion and in the sexuality forum. hehe
If you have an orchi and get arrested, sentenced to prison, and strip searched, guess which prison you're going in? The men's. It won't matter how much you cry that you're post-op.
yes, they could potentially put you in a men's prison. injustice and ignorance are a reality for all of us, post op or not. if you have had grs, there is no guarantee that you will receive the same consideration as any other female. and there is always - as in always - the potential for being outed and discriminated against. post-op and grs are not a free pass for anything, except feeling more comfortable in your own body.
But my point was you are much more likely to be put in a men's prison if you have only had an orchi if you have not had GRS.
Quote from: Melissa on May 01, 2007, 02:04:50 PM
But my point was you are much more likely to be put in a men's prison if you have only had an orchi if you have not had GRS.
How can you know for sure? If you had an orchi and were legally female, why would you think they automatically throw you in a man's prison. I think they would have to rewrite some law for that. I am not aware of any case where this has happened. Who really knows??? In Canada, things are also a lot more liberal. I have the right to choose whom to be strip searched by, Male, Female, or both in Canada.
If you were legally male then yes, you would probably go to a man's prison.
Prison is the least of my concerns anyway.
~Aurora
Quote from: Aurora on May 02, 2007, 04:30:15 AM
How can you know for sure?
I didn't say it would definitelyhappen. Much of it depends on the laws for the area you are sentenced and thrown in prison. However, it does happen even after SRS:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1598819,00.html
The point is that if somebody is found to have a penis, they will be assumed male regardless of paperwork. For instance, I haven't had surgery and my license says female on it, plus I pass. According to local laws (at least in Oregon), I would be placed in a separate prison for transgendered. The only way they would really know I was TS was if they did do a strip search on me and this would most likely be the case. They see a penis, then they see you as NOT female.
In fact, did you know that in California there is actually a law to castrate sex offenders after a second offense?
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/336/14/1030
If they perfform orchi's on prisoners, what makes you think they would consider sending you to a women's prison?
Quote from: Aurora on May 02, 2007, 04:30:15 AM
If you had an orchi and were legally female...
According to Amy T. (an attorney on here), you can not legally be female if you have only had an orchi.
melissa, that's a terrific point. i'm glad you brought it up. :)
For a MTF, post op constitutes lack of male genitalia and the construction of a vagina. Even here in The Netherlands where everything is legal ;) (unlike some countries in the world), a transsexual woman has to be post-op to go to a womens prison and obtain post-op status to get a new birth certificate.
QuoteAs it pertains to this topic, yes you are correct, I am. Again, I don't support any notion that a post-op transsexual does not have functional female genitalia, meaning a vaginal cavity, along with labia, a repositioned urethra and a clitoris. That is what constitutes POST-OP on my book (and the title of this thread) and it is not related to your gender identity, feelings of being female, or whatever else you believe yourself to be.
What if the person has "the operation," but a less than satisfactory result? Which results in a loss of clitoral area, labia, or vaginal cavity? Does THAT mean that she is not a "real post-op?"
Even if she had an operation? I mean, the original intent of the term post-op was post-operative. PERIOD.
And would a post-operative woman without a vaginal cavity, or without a clitoris, or without labia go to a male prison? Yes, I am being a little silly, because I am noticing a return to the nasty judgments that were prevalent here a few months ago. We seem to be back to defining people even though not everyone can agree on the definitions.
What if somebody somewhere suddenly decided that only women that underwent colon-resection SRS were post-op, because it is "more-realistic?" Then all of the penile inversion SRS women would suddenly be inferior, and less than post-op. What if they figure out a way to transplant a real vagina from a donor to a trans-op woman? If that surgery became available and prevalent, would that make all of the women of this generation less than post-op because of a change in available technology?
There is always going to be "something better" in the future. But you don't live in the future.
There was a time when being post-op was having an orchiectomy, as that was the latest in technology too. I always assumed that post-op meant lack of penis. But the truth is, that the penis material is STILL THERE on current post-op women, as so defined. It is just inside, instead of outside. The clitoris is still a modified glans, so the nerve connections are still the same. We are all currently limited to the skin we were born with as children.
But then, Bornstein said every cell in her body was changed after seven years, so it could be argued that those new cells in a new form are not what they were at all. Nice thought. I think that it is really important that we each define things for ourselves using I-statements here.
If the f2m community were like the m2f, than almost everyone would be less than post-op.
But for some reason, they don't seem to feel the need to adhere to the latest technology to feel acceptable. Why such a dissonance between the two communities?
If Tink and Katia (love the new avatar) want to define themselves as post-op for having penile-inversion surgery, fine. Since this site is dedicated to empowering people, and not policing people, than I suggest everyone define
themselves appropriately, and refrain from creating definitions that label other people. The one common thread to everyone on this site seems to be that society views everyone here, regardless of surgery status to be a little less than "normal." I keep coming back to the same thing over and over and over. We are all a lot more alike than different.
I realise now that I made that stupid trip to the US for nothing. I spent all those thousands of American dollars in surgery, hotel, recuperation time after GRS for nothing. I modified my life so drastically to fit my dilation schedule for nothing. I went through the physical pain of GRS for months for nothing at all. I just wanted to be a "normal" girl and have the same legal rights as any other normal girl. Have a new birth certificate, get married, have children through adoption. I was very stupid. I could just have had a castration and everything would be as normal as it can be.
Hmmmmm....well, the thing is that when someone creates a thread in the form of a question, it is obvious that everyone who aswers under such thread is going to give their opinion based on their individual knowledge, feelings, and experiences.
Needless to say, I could fabricate a zillion reasons to justify why I wouldn't have SRS, but there is this tiny voice inside each of us that never lies. I am sure that everyone here is well aware of what constitutes a post-op, of what a transsexual/woman is , of what it means to be fulltime; however as I said, each individual is the judge of their own beliefs, emotions, and feelings, just let's not expect that other people agree with what *you* believe.
Although so much has happened recently in my life and I have lost someone who was very dear to me, I can truly say that I am at peace with myself. This is so right and the way it was always supposed to be. I'm post-op and extremely happy about it, and if I had the chance to do it all over again, I would definitely do it in a milli second. That little voice never lies, can you hear it and honestly say that you are happy with the way you are?
Quote from: Yvonne on May 20, 2007, 07:18:41 PM
I realise now that I made that stupid trip to the US for nothing. I spent all those thousands of American dollars in surgery, hotel, recuperation time after GRS for nothing. I modified my life so drastically to fit my dilation schedule for nothing. I went through the physical pain of GRS for months for nothing at all. I just wanted to be a "normal" girl and have the same legal rights as any other normal girl. Have a new birth certificate, get married, have children through adoption. I was very stupid. I could just have had a castration and everything would be as normal as it can be.
Yes, you are, and so am I and all the other women who have had SRS! ;)
tink :icon_chick:
for Tink and Yvonne.... me too, me too ;)
Hey look, post-op is short for Post Operative. That's what it means. Pretty simple.
Cindy
QuoteHey look, post-op is short for Post Operative.
Thank you for quoting me m'dear.
QuoteThat's what it means. Pretty simple.
Yes, indeed. But what is the operation? What will the operation be next year, or the year after that? Surgery does not a woman make. technology changes, and so will the results.
Just another example of people needing to agree to disagree.
All that really matters is whether you are happy with yourself.
Thundra,
You notice, I didn't say "which" operation. ;)
There are certainly many choices these days. And I'm willing to share the happy news with anyone that cares to share. Otherwise, tain't none of my bizness.
Cindi
Oh come on!!
QuoteA post-operative transsexual is someone who has had the actual genital surgery done. It is very difficult to tell a m-f post op transsexual from a genetic female. Up to very recently, female-male transsexuals had no effective surgical technique to create a penis. There are penile implants and grafts, but these are often easy to spot.
There are more definitions here for your reading pleasure;
http://www.msu.edu/~alliance/faq/faqtransgendered.html
Actually Jennette, post-op doesn't mean post-operative genital surgery. Medically speaking, 'post-op' refers to after-the-operation for ANY type of surgery.
From www.medterms.com:
Definition of Postop
Postop: Short for postoperative, after surgery. The opposite of postop is preop.
Let those who are wise make use of 'post-SRS' if that is what is precisely intended and meant to be conveyed. We can solve these silly problems and fruitless fussing. Post-SRS is short, concise, just as easy to type, and sounds soooo MUCH more impressive than post-op, don't you think?
Post-orchi, post-FFS... the possibilities are both endless and more accurate! Are we not allowed to expand, improve our vocabularies and the dictionary for the sake of accuracy? I believe we can!
Hear ye, hear ye! We now declare 'post-op' to be old fashioned, ambiguous, and obsolete.
The King is dead! Long live Post-SRS!
Times are changing!
-Emerald :icon_mrgreen:
Quote from: Steph on March 31, 2007, 05:00:02 PM
I think that we are all aware about what we are taking about in this forum when we are talking about the term "post op", we are talking about SRS/GRS and no other type of surgery. I would have thought that it was obvious.
Steph
Post-op does mean "post operative" (after surgery, any kind of surgery as a matter of fact) but as outlined by Steph, we're discussing the definition of "post-op" GRS, not other type of surgical operation. Hence Jeannette's definition of post-op (as in GRS) is the correct one.
Quote from: Butterfly on May 22, 2007, 08:34:50 AM
Quote from: Steph on March 31, 2007, 05:00:02 PM
I think that we are all aware about what we are taking about in this forum when we are talking about the term "post op", we are talking about SRS/GRS and no other type of surgery. I would have thought that it was obvious.
Steph
Post-op does mean "post operative" (after surgery, any kind of surgery as a matter of fact) but as outlined by Steph, we're discussing the definition of "post-op" GRS, not other type of surgical operation. Hence Jeannette's definition of post-op (as in GRS) is the correct one.
Hiya Butterfly and thanks. I thought it was obvious what we were discussing here. I should have made it clear that my post referred to "post-op gender reassignment surgery" and "not other kind of post-op status".
OK. So it seems that we have limited the scope of the discussion to be limited to the current definition and understanding of the term post-op. If an orchiectomy is not post-op, than what is the underlying meaning of post-op. Removal of penis? Removal of all external genitalia? Creation of a neo-vagina? I'm trying to get a grip on what people are trying to accomplish.
Many people have talked about how sex is not important to them, so is the presence of a neo-vagina comforting in that penetration is an option after surgery, or is it that there are no visible markers of being male post-surgery? Does the comfort one feels after surgery come from feeling satisfied with their lack of male genitalia, the presence of female-performing genitalia, that acceptance of other females and males because of that lack of genitalia, or all of the above. Or is it just so that you can have sex like other females? What is so important about being post-op?
I take it then, that a person that had a nullification is also not considered post-op if no neo-vagina is created? For my own purposes >:D I consider a woman to be female when I can penetrate her. Anally does not count for me, although lots of lesbians are into that. So, I would not want to be with a woman that had the colon-resection surgery either. ::ick:: But that is just me. It seems like post-op has a completely different meaning than woman, which I guess fits in with the mantra that gender and sex are seperate.
What I am most curious about, is whether the drive to be post-op, is driven more by internal or external factors. Internal being the feelings one has about their own body image, and external being the acceptance or rejection one feels coming back from friends and acquaintences regarding their body appearance.
Since the majority of people one meets or spends time with will never see their sexual anatomy, it would "seem" to indicate that that societal judgments would be a minor factor in contemplating GRS. But the postings I read constantly seem to indicate behaviour driven by the need for acceptance in society, even though society will never know. So, is it fear of going to a male prison? Or fear of exposure after a car accident or during other surgery?
Or is it because you hated your birth genitalia so much that you felt the need to change it?
I know that I am going off into the yonder here, but since the definition for post-op is going to continue to evolve along with technology, I wanted to know how we got from orchiectomy as post-op to colon-resection surgery as post-op? OK. New thread. Who does the polls here?
Is colon-resection GRS superior to penile-inversion GRS, and why if so?
Quote from: Thundra on May 23, 2007, 11:25:27 AM
OK. So it seems that we have limited the scope of the discussion to be limited to the current definition and understanding of the term post-op. If an orchiectomy is not post-op, than what is the underlying meaning of post-op. Removal of penis? Removal of all external genitalia? Creation of a neo-vagina? I'm trying to get a grip on what people are trying to accomplish.
Many people have talked about how sex is not important to them, so is the presence of a neo-vagina comforting in that penetration is an option after surgery, or is it that there are no visible markers of being male post-surgery? Does the comfort one feels after surgery come from feeling satisfied with their lack of male genitalia, the presence of female-performing genitalia, that acceptance of other females and males because of that lack of genitalia, or all of the above. Or is it just so that you can have sex like other females? What is so important about being post-op?
I take it then, that a person that had a nullification is also not considered post-op if no neo-vagina is created? For my own purposes >:D I consider a woman to be female when I can penetrate her. Anally does not count for me, although lots of lesbians are into that. So, I would not want to be with a woman that had the colon-resection surgery either. ::ick:: But that is just me. It seems like post-op has a completely different meaning than woman, which I guess fits in with the mantra that gender and sex are seperate.
What I am most curious about, is whether the drive to be post-op, is driven more by internal or external factors. Internal being the feelings one has about their own body image, and external being the acceptance or rejection one feels coming back from friends and acquaintences regarding their body appearance.
Since the majority of people one meets or spends time with will never see their sexual anatomy, it would "seem" to indicate that that societal judgments would be a minor factor in contemplating GRS. But the postings I read constantly seem to indicate behaviour driven by the need for acceptance in society, even though society will never know. So, is it fear of going to a male prison? Or fear of exposure after a car accident or during other surgery?
Or is it because you hated your birth genitalia so much that you felt the need to change it?
I know that I am going off into the yonder here, but since the definition for post-op is going to continue to evolve along with technology, I wanted to know how we got from orchiectomy as post-op to colon-resection surgery as post-op? OK. New thread. Who does the polls here?
Is colon-resection GRS superior to penile-inversion GRS, and why if so?
Colon resection is considered inferior. It comes with it signficant medical problems that are not present with penile-inversion. There is a reason why penile-inversion is a prefered technique by any reputable surgeon. Fewer risks, fewer complications.
More than likely one stage surgeries are going to be standard practice in the next few years as well.
For me seeking SRS is multi-fold.
First it is deep frustration with my body. Being male in that way never made sense and I utterly despise it. So hating that part of my body comes first and foremost.
Second is the legal recognition it carriers, basically it allows one to change all documents in the US if you were fortunate enough to live in a state where that can be done. As much as people talk about the societal acceptance that FFS brings, it does not change ones documents, and those documents can lead to major issues if you do not have them fixed. Incongruent documents can lead to just as many problems as the way you look, except the problems are more subtle, but just a sinister.
Also it is very difficult to be in a relationship unless you are post-op, and for some people that level of societal acceptance is key.
Everybody has differant reasons. For me societal acceptance is not as important as self acceptance. For me the only way I can accept myself and get over my own discomfort is to go through the process and eventually get the surgery. I am not saying it will solve everything, but at least I will achieve some sort of peace.
~laugh~ everything is evolving. All surgeries are, not only gender reassignment. So, shall we change the meaning of post-op brain tumor surgery (or open-heart surgery) to something of a lesser importance just because "everything" is changing. What about mastectomies for women with breast cancer? . Shall the removal of a nipple be called a mastectomy just because everything is "evolving"...I think not.
Quote~laugh~ everything is evolving. All surgeries are, not only gender reassignment. So, shall we change the meaning of post-op brain tumor surgery (or open-heart surgery) to something of a lesser importance just because "everything" is changing. What about mastectomies for women with breast cancer? . Shall the removal of a nipple be called a mastectomy just because everything is "evolving"...I think not.
Yes, yes, that is a cute answer and all, but if the topic of discussion was simply for someone to state a definition that anyone could look up for themselves, than what was the point of posting the topic? If everything could be reduced to a definition that everyone else agreed upon, than there would never be a reason to discuss anything, now would there? Then wouldn't life be boring?
Apples and oranges. Comparing a masectomy to GRS based on the fact that both are a type of surgery, is in my opinion silly. In a mastectomy, you remove a body part -- period. You may use different techniques to accomplish that end, but a mastectomy means the same thing now as previously. But GRS, has changed over the years. Tink's post a while back quoted removal of penis, creation of neo-vagina, labia and clitoris. Have surgeons always completed all of those tasks since day one, the same way? I think not. The surgery has only become commonplace for the last couple of decades, and the estimates are that maybe 20,000 people have had the GRS, so yeah, I think any surgeon will tell you that it is evolving, and each patient has different requirements.
Going back to the first point, if someone posted this question, than I am going to assume that left open an opportunity to expound on what YOU felt about this subject. I am from a different generation than a lot of you, obviously, and back in my day, GRS was not the norm.
But things change. In five or ten years, who knows what they will be doing?
Here is a question for all of you that think post-op will always mean the same thing. If transplantation becomes possible, or stem cell research allows creation of your own female organs, would GRS still be considered post-op? I bet the people getting the new surgeries would not think so. They would think of people that had penile-inversion GRS the same way that people now think of orchiectomy, or nullification. When you depend on technology for your definition, than technology is going to creep on by and leave you behind.
The real problem here is not really post op, it's meaning. Just what exactly the meaning of a word (or another linguistic expression) is is something that has been argued for at least a couple of millennia, and the jury is still out.
Personally, I'd look at the question from the point of view of prototypes. Most of us have some idea of a prototypical of post op -- 'someone who has had their genitals surgically altered to be as close to their target gender as commonly possible' might be a reasonably good approximation. I think most of us could agree on this. The real question is how far from this prototype one can go and still be considered post op, and this is where our disagreements come up. There is no single, universally accepted (or definable) limit to how a word can be used; it's all a matter of how (and in what kind of contexts) various people use it. Which, of course, was the point of the original question. ;)
Nfr
As I understand it means that vaginoplasty has been complited. So no external male genitalia and vagina. The borderline is that you have undegone vaginoplasty and your vagina has collapsed.
Post Merge: May 15, 2009, 01:27:56 PM
My other external female genitals are not clearly visible (however they were after SRS) I still am post-op? Or am I?
So I am not post-op??? ???
Quote from: Melissa on May 02, 2007, 10:40:53 AM
I didn't say it would definitelyhappen. Much of it depends on the laws for the area you are sentenced and thrown in prison. However, it does happen even after SRS:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1598819,00.html (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1598819,00.html)
The point is that if somebody is found to have a penis, they will be assumed male regardless of paperwork. For instance, I haven't had surgery and my license says female on it, plus I pass. According to local laws (at least in Oregon), I would be placed in a separate prison for transgendered. The only way they would really know I was TS was if they did do a strip search on me and this would most likely be the case. They see a penis, then they see you as NOT female.
In fact, did you know that in California there is actually a law to castrate sex offenders after a second offense?
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/336/14/1030 (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/extract/336/14/1030)
If they perfform orchi's on prisoners, what makes you think they would consider sending you to a women's prison?
According to Amy T. (an attorney on here), you can not legally be female if you have only had an orchi.
What may be actually worse than male prison.
Post Merge: May 15, 2009, 01:33:05 PM
Quote from: Melissa on April 30, 2007, 12:57:06 PM
If you have an orchi and get arrested, sentenced to prison, and strip searched, guess which prison you're going in? The men's. It won't matter how much you cry that you're post-op.
That is what I do in case something silly accident or my old problems drive me to prison.
You've got to be joking me. Not this again! ???
I had a mole removed from my back 10 years ago.
Colour me post-op! :D
Quote from: Jeannette on May 15, 2009, 09:51:33 PM
You've got to be joking me. Not this again! ???
My thought exactly!
Judging by dates of the posts it's almost a year ago since this thread was last posted too. :)
Quote from: Vexing on May 15, 2009, 09:52:43 PM
I had a mole removed from my back 10 years ago.
Colour me post-op! :D
You're not post-op unless the hole left by the mole removal created a vagina. Na it was on your back so it's still not post-op under this topic LOL :D
and away we go... :)
-={LR}=-
Quote from: Yvonne on March 29, 2007, 10:21:39 AM
what? This (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRS.html) is post op.
Again this is post op:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRS.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRS.html)
Quote from: Yvonne on May 21, 2009, 03:38:31 PM
Again this is post op:
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRS.html (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/SRS.html)
what she said.
Medical history is personal business. No one needs to disclose anything to anyone (even other trans people), nor submit to definitions established by anyone (even other trans people) beyond the legal sense necessary for changing ID.
Even then? There's not even a good reason to put gender on ID or birth certificates.
This again, and what does this have to do with Post Op of the toe nails? ;D
Cindy
How about: one is post-op when one, after taking into account all that matters to oneself (be that legal, social, body dysphoria etc), considers oneself post-op. Unless of course we are deciding that our bodies belong to other people. ??? My body belongs to nobody but me thanks, not to cissexist legal definitions nor cis people's bullcrap nor other trans people's one-true-wayist nonsense.
One very common way to understand issue is post-op= post genital surgery. Because the word is also used others than by transgendered people.